Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

Do any of you guys think that there's a disproportionate amount of power in Oliver and Felicity's relationship? I saw a post earlier this week saying that Felicity just lets Oliver do whatever without much fight, like him making her his EA... I for one vehemently disagree because I can come up with multiple reasons where Oliver is the same way with Felicity (he just can't say no to her), but do you any of you guys think that Oliver's in the position of power in that relationship? 

[Ariah]

Do any of you guys think that there's a disproportionate amount of power in Oliver and Felicity's relationship? I saw a post earlier this week saying that Felicity just lets Oliver do whatever without much fight, like him making her his EA... I for one vehemently disagree because I can come up with multiple reasons where Oliver is the same way with Felicity (he just can't say no to her), but do you any of you guys think that Oliver's in the position of power in that relationship? 

 

Actually, if anything, it's the other way round for me.

At least now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. I can't yet fully verbalize this, but I believe it's Felicity who holds the power - and if she wanted to fight Oliver on something, he would simply let her win.

There's no way of knowing it now, but I strongly believe that if Felicity had said to Oliver to cut the martyr bull- and get together with her because life is short - he's see that he's in the wrong. The problem was she never told him that. (But he's a man, men really need short and precise comments, like lines of code :) Sorry, I hereby apologize to all men who like to wonder what women actually mean by saying one thing and doing the other...)

[Genki]

Do any of you guys think that there's a disproportionate amount of power in Oliver and Felicity's relationship? I saw a post earlier this week saying that Felicity just lets Oliver do whatever without much fight, like him making her his EA... I for one vehemently disagree because I can come up with multiple reasons where Oliver is the same way with Felicity (he just can't say no to her), but do you any of you guys think that Oliver's in the position of power in that relationship? 

 

Like I've said before on the boards, there is a superficial perception of a power differential between Oliver and Felicity but it is one they are fixing (annoyingly) with Ray Palmer. So the power imbalances which would have been problematic in a season 2 romance are disappearing in Season 3.

 

Namely, Felicty is no longer Oliver's EA and Oliver is "poor" and unemployed.

 

If they do get into a relationship and it ended badly, Felicity will still be financially solvent and she will still have a job. Sure he gave her the unasked for "promotion" but if she really wanted to go back to IT, I don't doubt Oliver would have let her. She made a choice (and I honestly believe vigilante hacking was her passion rather than IT grunt work anyway)

 

Actually like @Ariah said Felicity holds more power.

Even they are Partners in Team arrow, he is always a little lost when she is not around, there a clear and specific instances where he only listens to Felicity, and he often does things the way she wants to even if it is not the way Oliver would do things. Case in point the Dodger episodes in S1, so many things throughout season 2 and the "hocking" about helping Barry in the x-over.

 

But really it is not one person having power over the other, they are a partnership and they compliment each other in skills, build on each other strengths and are an unstoppable force when united for a common goal. 

 

Obviously Oliver deciding to not loose focus on the mission, is problematic but it would be worse if it was stated that  he was "protecting" Felicity by not being with her. One is denying himself something he truly wants for a, perceived, "greater good" the other is patronising and denying Felicity's right to be treated as an equal. [YMMV but for me they have never outright stated that being with Oliver is unsafe, they used qualifiers such as, "because of the life that I lead"]

[dtissagirl]

As of this moment, no, they're not into one another.  However, I do suspect that they're heading that way.  This is working off an assumption so I could be way off, but if Laurel and Oliver train together, I'm seventy-five percent sure that something will happen.  He pretty much cant control himself around the women he trains. Add to that the fact that Oliver" I'm done chasing after you" Queen is doing just that by begging both her and Ted to not train her and I'd say that there appears to be some unresolved feelings there that he doesn't even realize yet.

 

I think they're going out of their way to NOT have Oliver train Laurel. I'm willing to bet it's one of the reasons they killed Oliver, even. Laurel needs to become Black Canary without Oliver, because if there's one thing Black Canary comic book fans WILL RIOT FOR, is if master martial artist Black Canary, who can defeat BATMAN in hand-to-hand, learn fighting tricks from Oliver Queen and becomes his second banana sidekick. I think the EPs realize that more than the 'shipping woes.

 

My favorite part in TV Oliver being Bruce Wayne is that in the comics, Oliver gets off on the fact that Dinah can easily beat him to a pulp, but chooses not to. TV Oliver doesn't have that personality AT ALL.

[dtissagirl]

OH, yes, the fact that Oliver isn't responsible for Felicity's salary anymore -- even her buying him the bed -- was a blatant shift to minimize the power imbalance that existed in S2.

 

Actually like @Ariah said Felicity holds more power.

Even they are Partners in Team arrow, he is always a little lost when she is not around, there a clear and specific instances where he only listens to Felicity, and he often does things the way she wants to even if it is not the way Oliver would do things. Case in point the Dodger episodes in S1, so many things throughout season 2 and the "hocking" about helping Barry in the x-over.

 

Also, Oliver telling Felicity "if it's you asking, I'm gonna do it", two seconds after HE THANKED HER for saying she's not gonna try to talk him out of dueling Ra's, and even before the "I love you". Oliver might appear as more powerful because his last name is Queen, and is the Team leader, but that's more outsider's reaction. Wrt to their relationship, Felicity holds all the power. And 1. Oliver knows it and 2. Felicity knows it. And he accepts it, and she doesn't abuse her power, because that's not who she is. [And Oliver knows that too.]

Edited January 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Ariah]

Also, Oliver telling Felicity "if it's you asking, I'm gonna do it", two seconds after HE THANKED HER for saying she's not gonna try to talk him out of dueling Ra's, and even before the "I love you".

This I believe will be the most tragic thing to realize for Felicity: she could have stopped Oliver from going, all world be damned. But she didn't.

A good writing would make it a powerful moment to watch (I have no doubts in EBR acting abilities on that one).

[tv echo]

I think they're going out of their way to NOT have Oliver train Laurel. I'm willing to bet it's one of the reasons they killed Oliver, even. Laurel needs to become Black Canary without Oliver, because if there's one thing Black Canary comic book fans WILL RIOT FOR, is if master martial artist Black Canary, who can defeat BATMAN in hand-to-hand, learn fighting tricks from Oliver Queen and becomes his second banana sidekick. I think the EPs realize that more than the 'shipping woes.

 

My favorite part in TV Oliver being Bruce Wayne is that in the comics, Oliver gets off on the fact that Dinah can easily beat him to a pulp, but chooses not to. TV Oliver doesn't have that personality AT ALL.

I think it's too late for Laurel's BC to be that BC.  Laurel's BC hasn't taken a single martial arts lesson.  She will never be as good as Oliver, who's already been training for 8 years.  If Bruce Wayne exists in this universe, he's already much better than Laurel.  So I can see Oliver reluctantly feeling compelled to train Laurel in order to help her not get herself killed.

 

Regarding Oliver and the Lance sisters - my impression is that Oliver was single when Sara planned to go to that party to try to hook up with him, Laurel found out and ratted her out so Sara never got that chance, and then Laurel managed to snag Oliver herself (so much for Laurel's big heart).

Edited January 16, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I think it's too late for Laurel's BC to be that BC.  Laurel's BC hasn't taken a single martial arts lesson.  She will never be as good as Oliver, who's already been training for 8 years.  If Bruce Wayne exists in this universe, he's already much better than Laurel.  So I can see Oliver reluctantly feeling compelled to train Laurel in order to help her not get herself killed.

 

I think they might have Laurel leave at the end of the season, maybe even with Nyssa, to get her "real"  Black Canary training. They've just did it with Thea, and nobody is really doubting that Merlyn turned her into a tiny ninja, so another LoAer training Laurel is not a bad bet. I just don't see them wasting narrative time in training Laurel during the season, because that failed last season with Roy, and they know it.

[tv echo]

I agree that that's very possible.  And unfortunately she'll probably return next season.  But if Laurel returns with fighting skills just as good as Oliver's, then I'll call B.S.

[statsgirl]

the fact that Dinah got off easy. Dinah could've put a stop to that nonsense when she caught Sara but she didn't and then she compounded that crap by abandoning her family yet Quentin is seemingly the person that gets the majority of Laurel's scorn for some reason.

 

How exactly could Dinah have stopped her 20 year old daughter from going away with the man she said she loved?  Not to mention that she tried to talk Sara out of it but Sara wouldn't listen. That's why Dinah beat herself up for 6 years.

 

Just to add that Dinah didn't abandon her family, they abandoned her.  In the deleted scene, Dinah told Quentin that she left town because Laurel was in law school (presumably in her own apartment) and Quentin buried himself in his work so there was no one and nothing for her in Starling City.

I think trying to do a love triangle with Felicity, Oliver, and Laurel might backfire spectacularly. It doesn't mean they won't do it, but I don't see how it could work. 

Word.  (Do people still say that?  It was so useful in its day.)  When Oliver lunged at Sara he hadn't even expressed a romantic interest in Felicity yet but the sympathy was all on her side.  If they push a relationship with Ray/Felicity, the sympathy will still be hers because Oliver pushed her away in 3A. As Marc Guggenheim said, it's her superpower.

 

The backlash will be on Laurel and they can't afford any more of that.

 

 

Do any of you guys think that there's a disproportionate amount of power in Oliver and Felicity's relationship? I saw a post earlier this week saying that Felicity just lets Oliver do whatever without much fight, like him making her his EA... I for one vehemently disagree because I can come up with multiple reasons where Oliver is the same way with Felicity (he just can't say no to her), but do you any of you guys think that Oliver's in the position of power in that relationship? 

 

 

This I believe will be the most tragic thing to realize for Felicity: she could have stopped Oliver from going, all world be damned. But she didn't.

A good writing would make it a powerful moment to watch (I have no doubts in EBR acting abilities on that one).

Yep, Oliver said that he appreciated that she didn't try to dissuade him from going to fight Ra's, and then said "if it's you asking, I'll do it".

 

It's funny that people think there's a power differential between Oliver and Felicity. There could have been, but Felicity has always stood her ground, even quitting the team because she didn't like what Oliver was doing.  Felicity and Diggle are the only two people Oliver listens to, and of them I think Felicity has the edge.

 

In the scene with Laurel in the Cave, it wasn't that fact that Laurel was telling Oliver to keep fighting that made him do it -- it was the information she gave him that Sebastian Blood was in on it and that even if Oliver gave himself up to Slade, it wasn't going to end.

 

Regarding Oliver and the Lance sisters - my impression is that Oliver was single when Sara planned to go to that party to try to hook up with him, Laurel found out and ratted her out so Sara never got that chance, and then Laurel managed to snag Oliver herself (so much for Laurel's big heart).

Yes, that's the feeling I got too, that Laurel wanted Oliver for herself and that's why she got Sara grounded. By the time Sara got out, Laurel was dating Oliver and he was off-limits.

[tv echo]

So apparently the red/blue symbolism was not intentional...

klarolicityswan asked:
hey Marc! so... we have this theory called "the blue pill/red pill" regarding Olicity/ Raylicity. The symbolic meaning behind Felicity's red dress for her first meeting with Oliver (&the red pen!) vs her blue pen& blue dress for her first meeting ( her job uniform) & date with Ray. similar meaning to the Matrix's red pill vs. blue pill choice. Red symbolizes the painful truth (or painful true love) while blue symbolizes the painless fantasy (Ray). ur thoughts? (love u btw) stay awesome! xx

 

I think that’s an awesome theory.  If we’re doing that, it’s subconscious on our parts.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited January 17, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

So apparently the red/blue symbolism was not intentional...

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

 

Not surprising. They seem to luck into the most interesting things on this show.

[Guest]

Lol, did people really think that was intentional?! Seriously? Wow. Some have more faith in these writers than I do.

[Chiny11]

Not surprising. They seem to luck into the most interesting things on this show.

Ouch!! But true... LOL :) :)

Edited January 17, 2015 by Chiny11

[SonofaBiscuit]

Lol, did people really think that was intentional?! Seriously? Wow. Some have more faith in these writers than I do.

 

Sadly, I totally thought it was intentional.  WHY do I keep falling for these types of things?  Duped once again.

[Nanrad]

Back on topic, sorry olicity fans but I don't think that Oliver can move on until he resolves the situation with Laurel. That dinner scene was merely a Band-Aid and it's starting to peel off now that we can assume that Laurel and Oliver will be working closer together. That's going to be such an annoying love triangle too.

Honestly, what is there to resolve? 

 

There isn't any lingering looks/touches or nostalgia when thinking about each other. There isn't any forced romantic tension, which is would be if it were to happen in the third season (and, if we are very honest, how it's always been). Not only that, what signs have you seen to support the idea that the bandaid is starting to peel? Oliver seems so unconcerned and uninvolved with Laurel until it comes to Sara or she comes to him. 

[tv echo]

queenpartyoftwo asked:

Hi Marc, Happy Friday! You know when Oliver said that Felicity was 'the first person he saw as a person' in 3x01 - some people interpreted that as a retcon of other important relationships in s1 (Thea, Laurel, Tommy) Did he mean the first NEW person?

 

Yes.  Exactly.  As a new person he met post-return.

mssarah-rose asked:

Hi! I'm curious about the significance of Oliver's "It was red." line in reference to Felicity's pen on their date. There are some fan theories that tie in the matrix, that Oliver is the "red pill" and Ray is the "blue pill" for Felicity. Was there any special meaning for you guys?

 

Not consciously. I just went back to episode 103 to see what kind of pen Felicity was chewing on.  Turns out, it was red.

olicityfanatic asked:

Hello Mr. Guggenheim. Thank you so much for answering our questions you are amazing! I was just wondering in which episode Oliver realizes that he is truly in love with Felicity?

 

I think that’s a question best left up to the fans.  I will say that Oliver’s not the most self-aware guy, y’know?

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited January 18, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I think he started being quite intrigued, romantically, in the weapons episode..."I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen?"  Great moment.  And love, after "I believe in you."  I think he had a very subtle facial change after that moment, like a realization or moment of relief or something.

 

The weapons episode is a bit underrated, IMO.  Great Teen Arrow moments, and the weapon switch b/w Oliver and Canary is one of my favorite stunts in the whole series.

[chaos is welcome]

Not surprising. They seem to luck into the most interesting things on this show.

Yeah, see stuff like this just makes me sad. Because everything I love about the show seems to be an oops thing.  EBR is the best example of course. 

[jay741982]

Yeah, see stuff like this just makes me sad. Because everything I love about the show seems to be an oops thing.  EBR is the best example of course.

She definitely is! Best Female actress on the show since ST was killed off last season. She was a virtual unknown before this show. She has brought so much to the role and the show. She's so good and Felicity is so likeable and has so much Electric Chemistry with SA that for all intents and Purposes she is the female lead and Love interest of our Greenhooded hero

[tv echo]

Watching the Supergirl audition tapes (see Mind Your Surroundings thread here, though videos have since been deleted from those other sites) just made me realize how much the Oliver and Felicity relationship dynamic might have been completely changed had the EPs cast a different actress for the role of Felicity.  No head tilt and innocent quizzical expression, no spontaneous SA smile, no chemistry... probably no 'Olicity'.

Edited January 20, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I'm puttng this here because it's really about relationships and it's not spoilery...

 

I had previously speculated in the Green Arrow in Comics thread that, in 10 years, Felicity might be considered the Lois Lane or Mary Jane for the Green Arrow.  It looks like SA thinks the same way.  From TV Line's  interview with SA (posted in the Spoilers thread):

TVLINE | On the romantic front, you think there is a place on Arrow for a great love? I mean, Smallville had Clark and Lois, the Spider-Man movies always involve Mary Jane or Gwen…. A female is always a part of the hero’s journey.
I think that both Laurel and Sara, for Oliver, were loves that were principally from the past, from before the boat. And any other sort of brief relationship that he’s had has been flawed. Felicity has clearly, over the course of two-plus seasons, grown into that love for him. It’s just a matter of whether or not they can ever find a spot where they can make it work on an ongoing basis.

SA really gets it.  Oliver's relationship with Felicity has grown organically over the course of two-plus seasons, from temporary allies to trusted friends to equal partners to wannabe lovers.  Both Laurel and Sara are past loves (I like how he equates them in Oliver's mind), but they never were Oliver's trusted friends first.  For SA to say that Felicity has grown into this superhero's great love is saying a lot.  

 

Unfortunately, SA is not an EP of the show and does not dictate the course of the tv series.  If the Arrow EPs make a drastic change on the relationship front next season, then SA will have to change his tune to conform to the company line.

Edited January 21, 2015 by tv echo

[Password]

Yes it gives me warm and fuzzies that he says Felicity has "grown into that love". They weren't preordained and it's so refreshing to see them acknowledge that. SA has been on fire with Olicity since SDCC 2014.

[wonderwall]

I didn't know where to put this but I thought these tweets were hilarious:

 

‏@SuperheroFeed

If you ship Olicity and you know it clap your hands.

 

@SuperheroFeed

I didn't mean to offend Laurivers. I'm just saying, if you ship Oliver and Laurel then your ship must be the titanic because it's sinking.

Edited January 21, 2015 by wonderwall

[Chiny11]

LoooL. Who owns the Twitter SuperheroFeed account?

[Velocity23]

I dont know but they really love Felicity.

[calliope1975]

I just love that while he's still couching it as "for this season," SA seems to have backed off the "I'll never answer that question" about who Oliver loves and wants to be with and is answering point blank - Felicity. 

[looptab]

It's true, recent interviews seem to  openly validate Olicity as "The Ship" . I wonder why? Although Stephen is merely talking about Oliver mindset right now within the show- that is definitely Olicity oriented- and not who he personally thinks Oliver should end up with (which I think he should never ever do). So maybe it's just an impression due to all the interviews after the TCA, and nothing's changed..? IDK.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think he started being quite intrigued, romantically, in the weapons episode..."I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen?"  Great moment.  And love, after "I believe in you."  I think he had a very subtle facial change after that moment, like a realization or moment of relief or something.

 

God, I love that scene! So full of sexual tension. The look on Oliver's face told me he wouldn't mind hearing Felicity say "Mr. Queen" again in a totally different setting ;)

 

I kinda date his becoming intrigued by her, romantically, to the premiere of Season 2, "City of Heroes." There was the jungle swing -- that boy wasn't in a hurry to get off Felicity after they landed, I think he realized they "fit," then later he talks about how most people don't see the real him (but he looks at Felicity over Isabel's shoulder, implying she does) and then after they have that conversation about finding another way. Oliver just kind of smiles and stares as Felicity walks away (actually, now that I think about it, he did a lot at the beginning of the second season, staring while she walks away).

[Guest]

I don't know if this is me being pessimistic but I feel like SA is giving people something to hold onto when the going gets tough with Olicity. And I'm pretty sure it's gonna get real tough within the next 5 plus episodes. 

 

I kinda date his becoming intrigued by her, romantically, to the premiere of Season 2, "City of Heroes." There was the jungle swing -- that boy wasn't in a hurry to get off Felicity after they landed, I think he realized they "fit," then later he talks about how most people don't see the real him (but he looks at Felicity over Isabel's shoulder, implying she does) and then after they have that conversation about finding another way. Oliver just kind of smiles and stares as Felicity walks away (actually, now that I think about it, he did a lot at the beginning of the second season, staring while she walks away).

 

I think Oliver was attracted to Felicity in some way when they first met but the physical attraction was obvious when he first saw her in that gold dress in episode 115, I think. The one where Felicity ends up with the bomb collar. There was a visible change in his face when he saw her, only minor, kind of blink and you'll miss it, but it was there. Kind of like 'whoa, she's hot.' But I agree, I don't think he properly realized it until s2 and even then he probably didn't fully acknowledge it until much later.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Guest

[Chaser]

I'm pretty sure if they went back to Oliver and Laurel the media would think they were being Punk'd.

 

What I find most amusing about SA responses to Oliver's love life, is the effort he is putting in to distancing Oliver and his past relationships. He isn't just saying they are exploring the possiblity of Oliver and Felicity, he is saying pointing out why these past relationships didn't work and how they got to Oliver and Felicity. He is putting Laurel on the same line as Sara, who is dead.

 

SA may not have the final say in the romance department, but IMO he is making it more difficult for the EPs to go back to their original plan.

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

This face? Oh yeah, Felicity in that gold dress definitely grabbed his attention ;)

[apinknightmare]

I don't know if this is me being pessimistic but I feel like SA is giving people something to hold onto when the going gets tough with Olicity. And I'm pretty sure it's gonna get real tough within the next 5 plus episodes. 

 

I think that's part of it, and I also think it's partly to do with knowing what generates positive buzz and knowing that there's an unpopular storyline coming to fruition on the horizon. I'm one of the people who thinks that Laurel is off the table romantically for good, even though the producers won't ever come out and say it. If they do manage to bring some of the tide to Laurel's favor with her BC arc, I don't think they'll risk losing that by having her come in between Oliver and Felicity. I know some people think they'd use that as some sort of door opener to try to get them back together again, but I think it's the opposite.

Edited January 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

I think Oliver was always attracted to Felicity. First he was attracted to how different she was, and how transparent she was and bright and quirky, and incredibly intelligent etc. It's why he kept coming back to her. But then he started noticing Felicity in a different way when he first saw Felicity wear that gold dress. And I can't blame him. Felicity's an attractive woman. But I wouldn't say he had romantic feelings for her then. This attraction then grew in season 2, I think. And he was confused by his feelings most of the season and truly realized how deeply he cared about her/loved her in the finale. 

[Chaser]

I think that's part of it, and I also think it's partly to do with knowing what generates positive buzz and knowing that there's an unpopular storyline coming to fruition on the horizon. I'm one of the people who thinks that Laurel is off the table romantically for good, even though the producers won't ever come out and say it. If they do manage to bring some of the tide to Laurel's favor with her BC arc, I don't think they'll risk losing that by having her come in between Oliver and Felicity. I know some people think they'd use that as some sort of door opener to try to get them back together again, but I think it's the opposite.

I agree that they wouldn't risk any new found positivity with Laurel by trying to break up Oliver and Felicity. Even if Laurel's transformation is successful, it doesn't change the backstory of Oliver and Laurel,  and perhaps more importantly, it doesn't fix the chemistry problem. Even when Oliver and Laurel were friendly in S1, the lack of chemistry was a huge problem.

Edited January 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[looptab]

 

SA may not have the final say in the romance department, but IMO he is making it more difficult for the EPs to go back to their original plan.

So do you think those are his own words? Or better, thoughts?

Agreed on the positive buzz to counterbalance the Canary effect. They know it's risky, and want to secure the Olicity part of the fandom, IMO.

Edited January 21, 2015 by looptab

[HighHopes]

I'm in the camp that thinks that Oliver was aware of his feelings as early as 2x07, and was flat out gone for her in 2x10. There was just something about his face in the conversation with her when he apologized, especially when he said "well maybe he's dreaming about you". 

 

 

I have talked to a few people who have said that 2x07 is what sold them on the ship. Especially the "there was no choice to make" scene. 

[Chaser]

So do you think those are his own words? Or better, thoughts?

Agreed on the positive buzz to counterbalance the Canary effect. They know it's risky, and want to secure the Olicity part of the fandom, IMO.

Honestly, I haven't thought of the possiblity he could be parroting for the EPs. Personally I like to think both? LOL

 

I think its been proven that SA thinks a lot about his character and given how involved his answer is for Felicity vs. the paint by numbers way he would talk about Laurel in pre-S2....There is a good possiblity it is his own thoughts.

[looptab]

Yeah I like to think it's both too :)

I also think these first episodes have been some kind of test and they now feel safe to 'come out of the closet' ahaha

[Genki]

I think Oliver was always attracted to Felicity. First he was attracted to how different she was, and how transparent she was and bright and quirky, and incredibly intelligent etc. It's why he kept coming back to her. But then he started noticing Felicity in a different way when he first saw Felicity wear that gold dress. And I can't blame him. Felicity's an attractive woman. But I wouldn't say he had romantic feelings for her then. This attraction then grew in season 2, I think. And he was confused by his feelings most of the season and truly realized how deeply he cared about her/loved her in the finale. 

 

Agree!

 

Since Oliver superpower seems to be compartmentalisation, I think his found her objectively attractive in S1 (Gold dress the acknowledgement of it) but it wasn't till S2 that the full-on Felicity Feels came to the fore and refused to stay in their box. Starting with how happy he was to see them on the island and it built with a lot of little moments form there. Although Oliver was in denial for a lot of S2 about how he felt about Felicity, the Count killing, the Barry jealousy, "Because of the life I lead" speech were just time where his feelings refused to stay neatly tucked away.

 

Side note: The "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen?" had some serious eye banging going on, and I loved that scene and the whole episode. Starting with the "who taught you how to shave Mister..."

 

I think Oliver's actual acknowledgement to himself that this is full blown love is harder for me to pin down. I do feel it was in the final 3 episodes, of S2, but not sure where exactly Oliver acknowledged and accepted his feelings.  After the "I believe in you" hug? After the car accident? After he started thinking about what the "unthinkable" truly meant to him? I just don't know.

 

I'm really appreciative that they gave significance to their first meeting and tied it to Oliver's humanity, even though it was retconning. Oliver kept a pretty straight face to Felicity's more risqué verbal gaffes (except under the influence of Vertigo), and I binged watch the 2nd half of S1 looking for and Olicity romantic vibe and I just didn't see on deliberately being played. Of course I saw the potential. lol

 

It is known that Stephen give a lot of little nuances to his performance as Oliver so I believe he has been acting toward Olicity End game since S2 E1 and now the show is openly writing it he is more forthright in his statements. And I do think they are shoring up Olicity fandom support, because of the TCA debacle and hard slog the next few episodes will be.

 

If they had given a bit more Olicity summer of flirting or a stronger 3A with less Ray-forcing, I don't think they would have to work so hard now, especially since the audience is clear about Oliver's feelings and position, but unfortunately so not so much Felicity's.

Actually her being mad at Oliver, as speculated, just seems disheartening to me. I saw him die with Felicity as his last memory and I know she is unaware of his progress and did not see the brutality of his death, but it will be hard to resolve, for me, too much anger at Oliver even if he have some suicidal tendencies and she has real abandonment issues. I hope we get insight but doubt it because of the Atomic Canary agenda.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm really appreciative that they gave significance to their first meeting and tied it to Oliver's humanity, even though it was retconning. Oliver kept a pretty straight face to Felicity's more risqué verbal gaffes (except under the influence of Vertigo), and I binged watch the 2nd half of S1 looking for and Olicity romantic vibe and I just didn't see on deliberately being played. Of course I saw the potential. lol

 

This is the kind of retconning I can get behind. It doesn't negate anything that's happened in the past, that's why it works. He said he saw her as neither a target nor a threat and that makes sense. I would imagine he saw Diggle as a threat at first. After all, Diggle was this hurdle he had to clear every time he wanted to do something Arrow-related. But Felicity? No threat there. He needed help and she could give it. He didn't even have to put on the "Oliver Queen" persona he puts on for his friends and family (whom he would have considered threats). He definitely was using charm to get this IT girl to work on his laptop but since she didn't have previous knowledge of pre-island Oliver, he didn't have to pull on the mask more securely.

 

Oliver also said there was just something about Felicity [that drew him], and we saw that right away. His quick, surprised smile at her head tilt and "seriously!??" look. He kept going back to her after that, and while that's more plot driven, it also works for character. Oliver was starved for real interaction during those times. With this girl with the quick brain and quick mouth, he could almost be himself. Besides Diggle, there weren't a lot of people he could be with like that.

[Kymmi]

Oliver also said there was just something about Felicity [that drew him], and we saw that right away. His quick, surprised smile at her head tilt and "seriously!??" look. He kept going back to her after that, and while that's more plot driven, it also works for character. Oliver was starved for real interaction during those times. With this girl with the quick brain and quick mouth, he could almost be himself. Besides Diggle, there weren't a lot of people he could be with like that.

 

I love this conversation!  I really felt Oliver being "real" during 1x12 when Felicity went to the coffee shop to give Oliver the book.  She mentioned feeling like she could trust him and then Oliver kind of fell into an Oliver Queen mode and Felicity looked so disappointed.  He shook it off then and got serious with her and said she could trust him.  It felt different to me at that point.

[GirlWednesday]

Loving this conversation too!  Yes, Kymmi - I would agree with you.  Felicity saw through him and his fakeness.  He had to be true otherwise she wouldn't trust him. With Diggle, He convinced the solider to accept a mission for good.  For Felicity, he had to convince her that he was a good person over and over again before she believed in his heroism.

 

I think that's why this relationship has so much support.  It started from innocence and friendship and was never tainted by anything.  Oliver is the obstacle this season and last season because the one thing he knows he cannot save her from is himself. He very clearly sees that now.

[dtissagirl]

I love this conversation!  I really felt Oliver being "real" during 1x12 when Felicity went to the coffee shop to give Oliver the book.  She mentioned feeling like she could trust him and then Oliver kind of fell into an Oliver Queen mode and Felicity looked so disappointed.  He shook it off then and got serious with her and said she could trust him.  It felt different to me at that point.

 

This was the scene that made me go I 'SHIP IT, even though I didn't want to. But Felicity had really no idea how huge it was for Oliver to hear she felt like she could trust him, and when he says "you can trust me" for real, he really really really means it. Which is also something huge for Oliver, because he's not exactly someone who thinks of himself as trustworthy.

 

In anyway, that moment right there? I bought these two as bringing out "real" sides of each other.

Edited January 21, 2015 by dancingnancy

[kismet]

This was the scene that made me go I 'SHIP IT, even though I didn't want to. But Felicity had really no idea how huge it was for Oliver to hear she felt like she could trust him, and when he says "you can trust me" for real, he really really really means it. Which is also something huge for Oliver, because he's not exactly someone who thinks of himself as trustworthy.

 

In anyway, that moment right there? I bought these two as bringing out "real" sides of each other.

Exactly, you could see him putting on the OQ charm and it just did not go over. SA is amazing, in his facial choices, he does some much justice to his character. I think O realized that he did value her trust, and wanted to be committed to not BSing her anymore... Plus the wave gets me everytime... Seriously, have we ever seen OQ wave like that since? It harkens back to the natural break in his persona during the pen scene. I went back and watched, O did not have a genuine smile until he met Felicity, even if it was for a brief sec or so.

 

Let's not forget, Felicity was the 1st person he turned out of choice and not just necessity. He might have told Diggle, but his hand was forced after D was shot. He crawled into her car after he was shot, he didnt call Diggle which would have been more logical when you're bleeding out. That's trust... That's the start of something...

[kismet]

Agree with so much on page 58, loving this convo! I think if SA was writing Oliver’s romantic course the only destination would be Felicity. His subtle and not so subtle acting choices and nuances started this journey and if all goes well he’ll Captain the Olicity safely home. Hopefully TPTB will agree with this course. Im a little nervous with them calling them star-crossed – that never bodes well in TVerse. Plus I never really saw them as star-crossed, I just saw them as 2 damaged/cautious souls that gradually grew connected and are scared to see where that may lead and what it may cost them if they pursue it.  Their love has just organically grew from basic attraction (Oliver w/ the gold dress, Felicity w/ the syringe scene) to something very deep. Agree, he definitely did not make any quick movements to get off of her after the whole land mine thing, even the referencing of that moment in S3 brought out a cheeky smile from the both of them. I’m not sure if anyone could truly pinpoint when Oliver fell in love w/ Felicity. I think he was in the middle of it before he even realized it. I think revelation moments were the Ct Vertigo incident. I mean 3 arrows?? That’s not getting the job done, that’s personal. Plus his voice changed around these S2 episodes towards Felicity, it was a softer but with a deeper yearning tone to it. Another was his complete rxn to Barry. That was jealousy on display, but I loved how in the end he still prioritized Felicity’s happiness by getting Barry back even if he had to take a double drink to deal with it. Felicity’s leadership skills & strength were also on display this episode, which is something I think he also felt drawn to and realized how much he needed her, hence the official title as his partner. Then the you’ll always be my girl moment.
                   With the whole Isabel thing, I think it was him needing to explain more to her then her asking for an explanation. He was the one that provided more insight and info then most guys would to explain a meaningless 1-night stand. The Sara relationship made sense to me as well, after all Felicity did say she thought he deserved better and there was a connection between S&O. OQ might have been officially sleeping with Sara, but his relationship with Felicity was unofficially occupying a lot of his psyche, even if nobody realized it but SA, the audience & Diggle of course. But I always saw S&O as a friends with benefits thing from Oliver’s perspective, until the writers sped it up and tried to make it seem like a full fledge committed relationship. And this is where the writers scare me from time to time.

                When Oliver told Felicity he loved her in the finale. I totally believed it as more than a ruse. I don’t think he ever planned to say those words they just came out because he meant them. SA did the whole I’m overwhelmed by her presence head bobble that is so endearing & adorable, that I was like yep he means it even if he doesn’t know it. A few episodes prior in the scene when he tells F&D that he’s gonna surrender to Slade, he is basically restraining himself from kissing her. You can feel his anguish that he knows all he is giving up to protect her (&others), but all he wants to seem to do is kiss her. That was the scene where I was like game on. I had wanted it for the earlier moments in S1&2 (esp after Vertigo epi), but this scene sold me on the Eps willing to go there. I think the writers might have messed things up either intentionally or not by having the date come in the S3 premiere without build-up. I hate to use the word ship, but those of us that ship Olicity (guilty, altho to my defense I did happily route for L&O to reunite in S1, until that became so toxic after the character developments of L&S in S2 that there is no way I can route for L&O to become anything more than friends at this point), olicity fans saw it, but some of the core audience missed it. Personally, I think the writers willingly torpedod their chances of making it believable by rushing into it. Perhaps, they wanted to rebuild it later, but I really saw them sitting on that confession for a little bit. It had such organic beginnings and then they were like Bam here they are. Of course its gonna cause some emotional whiplash. I want them together and even I was like What? Oliver was right, the timing was not good. But I think they did it on purpose to set up the season, so maybe it will work into their master plan. Fingers-crossed.
                     Oliver is very disciplined and compartmentalized, very few things can break him. The only 2 characters I’ve seen him have these emotionally charged lapses in his behavior is with Thea & Felicity. That to me is telling as to where his heart truly lies, even before we got confirmation in the ending of the Climb. Plus, chemistry does not lie on the screen and EBR & SA have oodles of chemistry, it’s gonna be hard to play that off as just platonic partnership, should other love interests come into play. Let’s just put it this way, any future love interest is gonna question and be suspicious the closeness of F&O...

 

Sorry for the long post, it just had so much to say, will edit down in future hopefully.

[doesntworkonwood]

Okay, so I've been thinking about Oliver's motivations for not being with Felicity, and I've seen two or so schools of though when it comes to this. 

 

1) Oliver wants to keep Felicity safe. I think that this might come from a more fandom side of things, in that people like a protective Oliver and so they interpret the lines this way. The basic gist of it is Oliver saw Felicity getting hurt, and therefore decided that he couldn't be with her because she'd get hurt. I have a few problems with this theory. For example why would Felicity get more hurt being with him than she is now? Oliver's not an idiot (except when they need him to be), and so surely he knows that? Which would mean his decision not to be with Felicity would just be causing himself unnecessary angst, and though that is in character, I'd have liked to think that Oliver was moving away from that mentality. Another reason I don't like this theory is because it kind of removes Felicity's agency from this decision. It's her body and she should be the one making the decision over whether or not she's willing for it to be hurt because of the things they do. She's always been quite adamant about that, and for her not to be so now would be kind of out of character. Oliver has also respected Felicity's decisions, so it's strange why he wouldn't now. 

 

2) Oliver thinks that it will help him to keep Starling safer. This is the viewpoint I have. The gist of this is that Oliver believes that it was his distraction that meant that he couldn't keep Felicity and the rest of the restaurant safe. The reason I like this viewpoint better is that I think it's more in character. Admittedly this is also causing Oliver more unnecessary angst (which I said earlier that I didn't like), but it feels less single minded, because it's about focusing on the entire city. It's still stupid, but more understandable. Another thing I like about it is that it doesn't take away from Felicity's agency as much because his decision isn't about her. His decision is less 'we're not being together because Felicity will get hurt' and is more 'I'm not getting with anyone, especially Felicity because other people get hurt'. I think because the decision isn't about Felicity at it's core, it's more okay for her not to have a large say in this.

 

This is just what I think Oliver was thinking when he made that decision, before he knew what was going to go down soon after.

[apinknightmare]

I think Oliver's initial reasoning in 2x7 regarding "Because of the life that I lead, I think it's better to not be with someone I could really care about," was about Oliver thinking he was incapable of being in a proper relationship. Maybe because he wasn't ready, maybe because he thinks he's shit and has nothing to offer, maybe because he would be afraid he couldn't give that person his full time and attention because his mission had to come first. Maybe it's a combo of those reasons, or none of the above. I don't think it had anything to do with anyone's safety - even though I'm 80% sure that SA gave this reason at some point (or maybe that he was with Sara because she could handle herself to lessen the blowback? I can't remember). We've never really been given an indication of this in the show though.

 

Now his reasons for not being with Felicity stem from thinking that giving his attention to a relationship distracts him from his Arrowing. He was excited to go on a date with Felicity, wasn't paying full attention, got a tracker planted on him, then nearly got them both killed. Of course this is BS, but I think it's a more logical reasoning that stems from residual feelings of fear (he really, really loves Felicity and knows she deserves more than he thinks he can give her, is scared he'll screw it up, etc., etc.). It makes it easier for me to explain why he says he can't be Oliver and the Arrow, even though he's Oliver in every way but being with Felicity. I know this is not intentional on the writers' part, but it works for me, so I'm going with it.

[wonderwall]

Okay, so someone just after the hiatus asked me when Oliver fell in love with Felicity and vice versa and I had to write it down because it was just such a long explanation. I want my friend to understand okay :p Currently she's doing a re-watch of season 2 and missed all of the signs for Oliver/Felicity in the first run and she just finished it and she told me after reading my explanation and re-watching, she totally gets it! The miracle of a rewatch. Anyways, I thought I'd share what I wrote (I suppose you could call it a meta? So I'm sure not everyone will agree): 

 

I think that Oliver and Felicity have been slowly falling in love with each other since the day they met at Felicity’s office in QC. But I want to stress that it wasn’t love at first sight. I think that when they met, Felicity was intrigued by Oliver and then grew to implicitly trust him. This was shown through how she helped him even though she knew Oliver was up to something shady. I also believe that Oliver was equally intrigued by Felicity and her transparency, he was comfortable around her and he trusted her. Why else would he go back to her over and over again with ridiculous excuses when he could’ve easily found another IT person to have helped him?

 

It’s like what Oliver said, Felicity was the first person he saw as a person and not a target or threat. While some believe that this was a retcon just to accommodate the Olicity romance, I think that Oliver just meant that Felicity was the first person Oliver could truly be open with and not have any qualms about how she would endanger his mission.

 

Oliver’s relationship with Felicity in season 1 was a journey of them growing from strangers to boss/employee to friends. This journey culminated with Felicity having Oliver’s back whilst Oliver was being openly worried about Felicity and her safety telling her he wanted her out of the foundry.

 

Their relationship in season 2 was then a journey of them evolving from being friends to equal partners to maybe something more. While Oliver was probably unaware of his growing emotions, his actions said otherwise especially with how he killed the Count to save her, how he told her he couldn’t be with someone he truly cared about, how he got jealous of Barry Allen for grabbing Felicity’s attention. It was also shown through all of the long gazes, the touching, and how Oliver’s voice sometimes softened when he talked to her. I thoroughly believe that season 2 was when the audience could actually see Oliver fall in love with Felicity. Oliver just didn’t realize it because he’s pretty much the character with the least emotional awareness, and I don’t blame him. Oliver always had a lot of other things in his mind.

 

Some would then probably ask, “But what about Sara?” Well I say that Oliver loved Sara. But he wasn’t in love with her. Sara was familiar, she understood what Oliver had been through and she was just a safe option for him. He never had to challenge himself when it came to her, he never had to grow, and he was just comfortable with her. I think Oliver just needed someone at the end of the day without the hassle and that was what Sara gave him. And when they did get together, Oliver still wasn’t aware of the true depth of his feelings towards Felicity. So I don’t believe that Oliver being with Sara undercuts his feelings for Felicity because now that he knows how he feels about her he hasn’t even looked at another woman let alone try to fall out of love with Felicity. And that isn’t something he did with other women he claimed to love. 

 

Felicity on the other hand, was always a little more aware of her feelings for Oliver. I thoroughly believe that she’s always had a little crush on him (I mean, who wouldn’t? Just look at his abs and face), but as their friendship grew, so did her feelings for him and I think season 2 explored those feelings. Her growing feelings for Oliver was shown through  the little things like the way she would look at him. But also how she jumped off a plane just to get him home (even though she’s scared of heights), how she got jealous after Oliver mentioned Shado, how she thought he deserved better than Isabel, and how she warred with herself over telling Oliver the truth about Thea’s parentage, and how she told him he was not alone and that she believed in him. However, even though Felicity was more aware of her crush on Oliver, I think that Felicity repressed the deeper feelings she had for him to protect herself. In short, she acknowledged her crush but denied herself from acknowledging the idea of possibly being in love with him.

 

So when did all of this change? For Oliver, it was during the finale.

 

I thoroughly believe that the moment he came up with his plan to ‘de-mirakuru’ Slade was the moment he truly realized he loved Felicity. Why? Because of the whole, ‘you never truly know what you have until you lose it’ deal. Oliver was scared about losing Felicity and I’m sure that had to make him evaluate his feelings for her and what would happen to him if he did lose her. In the end, that’s what was so unthinkable for him, the fact that he had to put the woman he just realized he was in love with in danger to save the city. This was what made his ‘I love you’ to Felicity so real, it was the culmination of Oliver coming to terms with the true depth of his emotions for her. He didn’t even have to say those words, but he did, because I think he needed to say it to come to terms with what he already knew. So yeah, Oliver didn’t realize his love for her at that moment in the mansion, but instead, he realized it beforehand and I think that it’s a shame we didn’t really get to see the light switch on for Oliver because the whole ‘make a plan and outfox Slade’ thing happened off screen. 

 

Felicity is a different ballgame. I think that she’s still coming to terms with what she feels for Oliver and is actively trying to not acknowledge that she’s in love with him because it’s easier that way for her. But with the way season 3 has been turning out, people have questioned Felicity’s love for Oliver. I feel like it’s because Oliver has been completely explicit with his feelings towards her that it overshadows whatever Felicity is feeling. Just because Oliver is more open about his feelings doesn’t mean he feels more strongly. Season 3 turned the tables in that regard. It’s not Oliver who’s now compartmentalizing his feelings, it’s Felicity. And this is because of her abandonment issues which stemmed from her father leaving her at an early age and was reinforced when Oliver walked away after kissing her, Cooper ‘killed himself’, and when Ray walked away after kissing her… Oliver left Felicity in the first episode of season 3 and it crushed her, why should she open up to him and be vulnerable if he’s going to leave? And in the mid season finale, Oliver openly told Felicity he loved her but then ‘died’. So I don’t blame Felicity when almost every man In Felicity’s life has walked away to not believe Oliver when he says that she’s not going to lose him because she’s lost him too many times to trust his words.

 

So yes, Felicity does love Oliver (which was a product of their growing relationship over seasons 1 and 2), but I don’t think we’ve seen her realize just how much she loves him. I think we’re about to now that she’s lost him. Regardless of whether she puts the brakes on their relationship or not, I think that losing Oliver will show us and Felicity herself just how much she loves/loved him.

[BkWurm1]

From the Felicity thread:
 

Also...did the show have Felicity apologise to Ray for crossing a line when talking about his dead fiancé? Because apologising to your stalker about boundaries is a little weird. Maybe I misheard, though, because paying attention to those scenes isn't easy for me.

 

The thing is, Ray saying she is not allowed to tell him what Anna would want...that is Ray setting down boundaries in their friendship.  And Felicity respected it.  We want Ray to respect Felicity's boundaries BUT they aren't Felicity's boundaries, there're ours, what we want for her.  SHE'S ok with letting the pinging of her phone slide. 

 

Also, there is an emotional difference between speaking for a dead fiancé you never met and misusing technology to find someone.  I don't hold it against Felicity for what she said, but it hurt Ray and that is what she was apologizing for.  I really believe if Felicity expressed fear or hurt over Ray's questionable habits rather than just exasperation and annoyance, I do think Ray would apologize and try to amend his behavior (I say try because I think it's just who he is so he'd slip up occasionally) 

 

I thought those scenes were well done.  Ray drew his line, but he prefaced it by saying they could talk about it further.  Then later when Felicity apologized, it wasn't from a place of weakness or of her backing down from her beliefs.  She was clear that she knew she couldn't stop him, but she would no longer help him.   It was a solid exchange as equals and I appreciated that.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BkWurm1