Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wingster55]

From the Public Appearances thread:

 

Wait, when did this happen? Sorry, I'm not very well versed with Season 1. Maybe respond in team arrow page? This one is getting a little clustered :p Also, it wasn't Oliver's goal to do this. Even though Felicity (as well) made him go beyond the list, I still don't think of Oliver started his hero journey back then. He was doing it because others told him to and not because he wanted to. It's like being told to do your chores, it doesn't count.

"Legacies" S1 EP6. When Diggle convinces him to go beyond the list. Actually he doesn't really go back to the list until ep 12.

Not sure why it doesn't count. Like just because when I was younger I did a chore at my parents request doesn't mean it doesn't count. 

Though the real catalyst imo was Tommy's death (and then he believed he was a hero after the Tommy hallucination/ghost)

[wonderwall]

Ah, okay. But my issue with that is that, that's not what heroes do. A hero doesn't do something because he was told to, they usually do it because they feel it's their duty to help people. A hero is made not only through one's actions, but also one's goals, ideologies, legacy. The Hood's legacy was that he was a killer, however, the Arrow's legacy is slowly being developed as him being a hero. Oliver didn't truly start being the Arrow until Tommy died because that's when he vowed to stop killing, that's when he changed his goal from revenge to vowing to help the people of Starling City. 

 

But I guess we'll agree to disagree? 

[wingster55]

Are we talking about when Oliver started being a hero or what was the first team?

[wonderwall]

Are we talking about when Oliver started being a hero or what was the first team?

Both. I feel like they're both connected. 

 

Like I said before Team Hood was when Oliver wasn't a hero and wasn't even close to starting that journey. Team hood had a different goal and different methods to achieve those goals. Diggle was a part of that original team whereas Felicity was more of an honorary member. 

 

Then the undertaking happened and everything changed, Oliver skipped town because he couldn't handle it. This was officially the end of Team Hood. 

 

Then Digg and Felicity brought Oliver back, and while at the beginning he didn't want to resume his vigilante activities, they pushed him to realize that running away wasn't the solution. The first thing Oliver did when he goes back to the foundry was reinvent his persona and reinvent his purpose to honor Tommy. This was when Team Arrow was officially born because that's when The Arrow was born. So if you look at it that way, Felicity and Digg were the original members because they were there throughout the entire process, through the transformation, through the conception of the new persona. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by wonderwall

[KenyaJ]

Didn't David Ramsey post a picture of him, Stephen, and Emily once she arrived at SDCC and label it "Original Team Arrow"? Regardless of the fans, it seems clear that the actors regard Oliver/Diggle/Felicity that way.

[wingster55]

This was when Team Arrow was officially born because that's when The Arrow was born. So if you look at it that way, Felicity and Digg were the original members because they were there throughout the entire process, through the transformation, through the conception of the new persona.

 

Ok...I can buy that. 

[ban1o]

The actors probably refer to the 3 of them as the "original team arrow" because that's how the majority of the fan-base views them and since it's not that big of a deal they just go with it. 

[statsgirl]

Diggle agreed to work with Oliver in 1x06 and Felicity joined them in 1x14.  From then on, for 17 episodes until 2x12 when Roy joined and then Sara, the Team was Oliver/Diggle/Felicity and that's when the real growth in Oliver happened.

 

There's been comments worrying that the team is changing or getting too large, which the EPs and SA have commented on, not to mention "it started with the three of us, we need to get back to that" in response to Laurel wanting on, which is a pretty heavy-handed message.  So I do think that saying that Felicity is Original Team Arrow is justified.

[wonderwall]

The actors probably refer to the 3 of them as the "original team arrow" because that's how the majority of the fan-base views them and since it's not that big of a deal they just go with it. 

Or because actors can have opinions of their own despite what the fans think... Not everything is done or said because of fans. I don't think actors put that much thought it tweets like that... Then again, David isn't going to isolate EBR considering how many people love Felicity. That's just insane.

[ban1o]

Or because actors can have opinions of their own despite what the fans think... Not everything is done or said because of fans. I don't think actors put that much thought it tweets like that... Then again, David isn't going to isolate EBR considering how many people love Felicity. That's just insane.

I`m not saying that they can`t have their own opinion but I doubt they thought much about the "òriginal team arrow"  or used monikers like that before tons of entertainment sites, people on twitter, facebook people  and so on referred to them as such. And they were like. That's cool, we're the original team arrow. It's not really a big deal. I just think technically it started with Oliver and Diggle (which it did :P) But Felicity's awesome as well so I don't really care what people consider the original team arrow. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by ban1o

[willpwr]

Didn't Diggle trick Oliver into going outside the list? If I recall correctly, Oliver went along with it because he felt that was another one of his father's wrongs that he had to correct. I'm referring to S1E6 Legacies. When he was the Hood, he only went outside of the list if it was something that directly affected him, Laurel, his family or Diggle. Felicity encouraged him to try to help everyone and she reinforced what Diggle had previously told him, that he needed to think outside of the list and try to do good things for the city.

[JayKay]

I like that Stephen called Felicity a member of OG Team Arrow because that means that it includes her, Diggle and Oliver as a little clique, but also doesn't exclude other people from being included eventually. Original, not exclusive.

[ban1o]

Oh yeah I have no problem what soever with what Stephen wrote since most people refer to Ollie-Diggle-Felicity as the original trio and Diggle and Felicity were the first 2 people who joined his team.  I was just stating in my previous comment that was the "original 3" or the "original team arrow" was  a moniker spread more through media than by the actors themselves.

[Chaser]

Didn't the media also get in on it? The first time I saw the name it was in the media. 

[ban1o]

Didn't the media also get in on it? The first time I saw the name it was in the media. 

I don't know if you're replying to me but that's exactly what I'm saying lol. Sorry, if I'm not making myself clear. English isn't my first language. Basically "The original team arrow" was a term spread by media (entertainment sites) and the fanbase and there's really no reason for the actor's to go against the popular moniker so they refer to themselves as that as well. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by ban1o

[JenMD]

Diggle agreed to work with Oliver in 1x06 and Felicity joined them in 1x14. 

And Felicity had been helping Oliver with his night job, albeit unknowingly, since 1x03, so I have no problem considering her an original member of Team Arrow.

[ban1o]

And Felicity had been helping Oliver with his night job, albeit unknowingly, since 1x03, so I have no problem considering her an original member of Team Arrow.

LOL if you're count Felicity helping him unknowingly then you open a whole can of worms of whether Laurel is on Team or not :P. There's a lot of argument about this on other sites. 

[wonderwall]

LOL if you're count Felicity helping him unknowingly then you open a whole can of worms of whether Laurel is on Team or not :P. There's a lot of argument about this on other sites. 

I guess we should all agree to disagree lol

[Chaser]

@ban1o - I think we posted at the same moment. Thanks for answering LOL

 

The Team Arrow thing didn't seem like such a big deal with Roy or Sara. Roy I think because they had been laying the groundwork. Sara because she was temporary.  There was still push back but it wasn't until Laurel was included that fans started an uproar. Speaks about how poorly they sat her up and her character in general.

 

I think fans are afraid of losing Team Arrow so they are holding onto it pretty tightly. I do include myself in that group because Team Arrow is one of the reasons I'm still watching. Team Arrow is going to grow and more people will be added, I get that. Shows have to evolve or they become stale. But I think S3 needs to establish that they can include more members without losing that special connection between Diggle, Oliver and Felicity.

Edited September 18, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[JenMD]

LOL if you're count Felicity helping him unknowingly then you open a whole can of worms of whether Laurel is on Team or not :P. There's a lot of argument about this on other sites. 

I totally don't mean to bring in arguments from other sites or bring Laurel into it, honest (I'm really not interested in talking about Laurel and I don't pay that much attention to her if I can help it, so other than the ep with using her to get into the file room in S2 (which was memorable in its silliness, imo), I don't even recall anything comparable.).  What I meant was he went to Felicity regularly for specific tech help and she earned the reveal and his trust while working on the outside, while he was working with Diggle on the inside and they worked their way into a team. 

[statsgirl]

Didn't Diggle trick Oliver into going outside the list? If I recall correctly, Oliver went along with it because he felt that was another one of his father's wrongs that he had to correct. I'm referring to S1E6 Legacies. When he was the Hood, he only went outside of the list if it was something that directly affected him, Laurel, his family or Diggle. Felicity encouraged him to try to help everyone and she reinforced what Diggle had previously told him, that he needed to think outside of the list and try to do good things for the city.

Diggle tricked Oliver into paying for the bank guard's hospital bills, pointing out to him that there is more crime in the Glades than just The List, and they went after the Gang together. Ironically the Gang was also linked into to Robert Queen through how brutally his fired his employees.

 

Oliver also went after Deadshot, but that was connected personally to Diggle.  I think the first time he deliberately went outside the list in something that wasn't connected to Diggle was The Dodger, trying to prove to Felicity that he was about more than just vengeance.

 

Diggle was a soldier, like Oliver when he targeted The List so they had very much the same attitude towards the job.  Felicity brought a different ethos to the lair, one that let Oliver and to some extent Diggle branch out behind the strict confines of the mission.  Oliver became more human and you could say that Diggle did too since he started to date Carly.

 

The Team Arrow thing didn't seem like such a big deal with Roy or Sara. Roy I think because they had been laying the groundwork. Sara because she was temporary.  There was still push back but it wasn't until Laurel was included that fans started an uproar. Speaks about how poorly they sat her up and her character in general.

I think  having Roy there and Sara even though she may have been temporary (no way to know for sure at the time), and with Diggle and Felicity being pushed into the background was wearing on people's patience. As well, there had been a lot of time already spent on Laurel, from the beginning of the season with her addiction storyline to the five episode arc in 2b.  Some of us were just hanging in then, others had already given up (Jennifer Cruzie)  and the idea that Laurel was going to come onto the team and take even more time away from Diggle and Felicity was just the last straw.

 

For me, the core of the show is Team Arrow of Oliver/Diggle/Felicity.  I can take individual storylines for other characters as grace notes, but Oliver/Diggle/Felicity is what I watch for.  I'm excited to see how Diggle navigates fatherhood and Hoodhood next season.

Edited September 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[DrSpaceman10]

I know everyone watches for their own (completely valid) reasons, but I watch mainly for Oliver/Diggle/Felicity. I hope we get a lot of them this year :)

[ban1o]

I totally don't mean to bring in arguments from other sites or bring Laurel into it, honest (I'm really not interested in talking about Laurel and I don't pay that much attention to her if I can help it, so other than the ep with using her to get into the file room in S2 (which was memorable in its silliness, imo), I don't even recall anything comparable.).  What I meant was he went to Felicity regularly for specific tech help and she earned the reveal and his trust while working on the outside, while he was working with Diggle on the inside and they worked their way into a team. 

yeah you make sense! 

[Chaser]

I hadn't thought about it before, but Diggle hasn't really interacted at all with Laurel right? Not till those last few episodes of S2.

 

But he did go with Oliver a few times to QC and meet Felicity prior to her official join. Oliver did say she was an unofficial/honorary member in 2x14.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I love this scene from Legacies where Oliver and Diggle go to Felicity for help. I think this is where Digg meets Felicity, though we never see their introduction. But I love the dynamic between Digg and Felicity right away with both of them kinda teasing Oliver. Well, Digg definitely was. The look on Oliver's face as they ganged up on him is priceless. I remember watching that scene and thinking, "I like those three together." Still had no idea about plans to bring in Felicity into the fold, though I imagine TPTB were already talking about it at this point.

 

Edited September 19, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

The Diggle/Felicity dynamic is great.  First he's testing her to see if she has a sense of humor (she does), and then he admires her for seeing beyond Oliver's b.s. stories.

[Chaser]

That was a great scene. I loved that her tone took on a slightly judgey tone with Oliver over the employees situations.

[TanyaKay]

LOL if you're count Felicity helping him unknowingly then you open a whole can of worms of whether Laurel is on Team or not :P. There's a lot of argument about this on other sites. 

 

Laurel never really helped him except for revealing the Sebastian Blood secret and we know how she was shoehorned into that (it was Sin, Thea and Roy who were originally looking into it). All the times in season 1 when Laurel was involved with the plot, it was the hood helping her, not the other way around. She was the most useless lawyer in the country and did not win a single case without the help of the hood.

That was a great scene. I loved that her tone took on a slightly judgey tone with Oliver over the employees situations.

 

and these are the tiny little nuances that EBR adds to her performance that make her character so relatable and likeable.

[ban1o]

 

Laurel never really helped him except for revealing the Sebastian Blood secret and we know how she was shoehorned into that (it was Sin, Thea and Roy who were originally looking into it). 

Yeah I also feel the producers forced her into the Blood thing to keep her relevant. I was actually liking the Sin-Thea-Roy team that they were forming and heading towards (and I know a lot of other viewers at the time did too) and then they almost did a bait and switch and transferred that to Laurel lol. I'm kinda still bitter about that ,especially because I liked Sin. But I digress. 

 

Anyway yeah Laurel isn't on team arrow but she has helped him out. Yeah it was more The Hood helping her than her helping the hood, but they were still working together. I guess you could call her a team arrow - ally. :P I'm interested to see Laurel's dynamic with the team this year. We haven't received that many Laurel spoilers and have received conflicting information about whether she is actually On the team (as in in the arrow cave) from the cast so that's one of the questions I'm waiting for the show to actually answer. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by ban1o

[JayKay]

I could be going to hell for asking this but would a Team Arrow Ally be on Team AA?

[Chaser]

Isn't Double A the minor leagues? In which case, I think its a great idea.

 

Don't worry about Hell, it's got a Starbucks.

[DrSpaceman10]

I hope we get more Nyssa and Felicity scenes this year. They only had a 15-ish second scene in the finale, but I loved it! I think they have a great chemistry :)

[TanyaKay]

Felicity is the chemistry catnip, she is great with anyone she shares the screen with, just like Tommy was in season 1.

[Chaser]

She reminds me a lot of Candice Accola and Alison Mack in the chemistry department. Put them with anyone and they can find the chemistry. 

[TanyaKay]

never watched Smallville so I have no idea about Alison Mack but I have heard great things about her.

As far as TVD is concerned, every female character was better than Elena who made me want to claw my eyes out. I think I stopped watching that show a couple of years back but from what I do remember of Candice, she was good and played a genuinely likeable character even though she was supposed to be the self absorbed entitled bitch in season 1, right?

[wonderwall]

It could just be the way this gif has been made but is it just me or does it look like the lights automatically turn on when Oliver/Felicity kiss? It's cheesy, but a nice touch anyways :p It's a whole throwback to the whole you should be with someone who can harness the light inside of you and all that. 

 

[Chaser]

Felicity and Tommy was a friendship I really would have liked to have seen on the show. Tommy and Diggle scenes were gold too. Needed more of those.

 

Candice played Caroline Forbes. Self absorbed entitled bitch is a pretty close description of her character in season 1. However, Candice played her with moments of insecurity that really made you relate to the character. In S2, she became a vampire in one of the best character arcs of the entire show.  Her character grew so much between S1-S4. I no longer watch TVD, but I still google her scenes. Caroline is one character I will always love. This isn't the right forum, but I could go on. lol

 

@wonderwall, it really does LOL

[TanyaKay]

It could just be the way this gif has been made but is it just me or does it look like the lights automatically turn on when Oliver/Felicity kiss? It's cheesy, but a nice touch anyways :p It's a whole throwback to the whole you should be with someone who can harness the light inside of you and all that. 

 

 

lolz, it is the graphics in this gif. Such creative fans we have here ...

[wonderwall]

 

it's a matter of getting the right woman. Felicity is a great friend to Oliver but you can't tell me she's a better sympathizer or empathizer to Oliver. All she does is motivate him and give him bandaid solutions. Even Sara can't really rate to the loneliness Oliver experienced which is worse than any physical hurts he suffered. There is only one who has really experienced loneliness. Guess who that is?

I found this on another site and I found this interesting. In order to 'fix' Oliver, does someone need to empathize with him or sympathize? Two things come to mind when I read this.

 

Does two wrongs make a right? Just because Laurel probably understand the loneliness Oliver went through in the first season, it doesn't mean that her understanding this loneliness could be what helps Oliver. And that begs the question, is Oliver truly lonely anymore? I don't think so. I also don't think he needs to be fixed, regardless, he has Felicity and Digg who have stated time and time again that they'll always be there for him no matter what. 

 

The other thing that comes to mind is that, was Laurel ever truly alone or ever felt lonely? I know she asked "why does everyone leave me?" Which shows that she's still dealing with this issue, but I wonder if she's actually lonely. She has Quentin, now Sara, her friend from the first season. She's always had someone. Hmm.

 

It was an interesting point though. I don't agree with it, but whatever. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

I really wish the show wouldn't encourage this 'Oliver needs to be fixed mentally.'

The guy needs to learn and evolve on his own. I love the Oliver is alone this year plot line. He can actually focus on who he wants/needs to be without lying to himself (Mckenna/Laurel) or trying to fix another woman (Helena/Sara).

 

About loneliness and Laurel and Oliver. I don't buy it. They are apples and oranges in experience. The closest person in direct terms is Sara. 

 

 

 

 

[Password]

I really wish the show wouldn't encourage this 'Oliver needs to be fixed mentally.'

The guy needs to learn and evolve on his own. I love the Oliver is alone this year plot line. He can actually focus on who he wants/needs to be without lying to himself (Mckenna/Laurel) or trying to fix another woman (Helena/Sara).

 

 

I agree. Romantic relationships for Oliver are a distraction from the fact that he needs to learn to live with himself. He's got a way to go. I'm glad he's going single.

[Guest]

I don't understand that at all. Am I to assume they mean that Laurel is the best person for Oliver because she knows true loneliness? How does Sara not know loneliness? She also lost her family for five years. And also, was Oliver ever truly alone? I know we have more flashbacks to come yet but for the first two years on the island he always had someone with him. So I don't understand what point they're trying to make tbh.

 

Most importantly though, why does Oliver need to be fixed?  Surely it's what Digg was talking about - finding the person who is already the right fit for him. That is definitely not Laurel.

[Starfish35]

I will never buy that Laurel has experienced worse loneliness than Sara. And it makes me a little sick that people could think it's even comparable. Do people think Sara was never agonizingly lonely and afraid after the wreck? Being trapped on a boat with no one she knew, who did not have her best interests at heart? Whatever situation she was in when Nyssa found her? Running from the LoA and keeping herself hidden from even her family? What about all of that does not say "lonely" to you?

ETA: I'm not saying Laurel hasn't experienced loneliness. I'm sure she has. I'm simply objecting to the absurdity of the notion that she is the "only one" besides Oliver who has truly experienced loneliness.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I loved the fan reaction when Laurel did her "everyone leaves me" moan in s2.  Yes, Tommy left you.  Tommy died.  The idea that Laurel has any clue what true loneliness is makes me laugh.

 

Lessons from Counselling 101:  people know what's wrong and very often, if you listen to them, you'll find they know how to fix it.  The problem is that they can't get there from here (maybe too sad, too hurt, unable for whatever reason).

 

I find that in terms of change, empathy is often helpful to get the other person to a place where he/she is motivated to do the changes.  If Felicity is already motivating Oliver (to listen to others before yelling, not to kill), then she's already ahead of someone who is just giving sympathy or empathy.  I'm curious as to what way those are bandaid solutions, by the way. They seem pretty life-changing to me.

 

I also see Diggle as being someone who motivates Oliver too.  I really hope they have some conversations when Thea comes back.

[catrox14]

When was Laurel ever truly lonely or alone? When was that EVER portrayed on screen? After Ollie and Sara died, she still went to law school, made a best friend who she worked with and was dating Tommy and seemed pretty damn happy and content. And when Ollie came back, she had already started rebuilding her relationship with her father. Then had Oliver and Tommy and was bouncing back and forth.  What the fuck? Loneliness, my ass.

 

ETA:  A glass of alcohol in her hand and popping pills does not a compelling case for lonely addict make. IMO Cassidy sure as hell never imbued Laurel with any underlying angst and sadness that would ever lead to me "Oh look Laurel is suffering". Nope.

Edited September 21, 2014 by catrox14

[Sakura12]

Sara was more alone than Oliver, he had Yao Fei, Slade and Shado as his friends. Sara had no one looking out for her, training her and helping her on the Amazo. She survived on her own. If Oliver needs someone to commiserate over being lonely it would be Sara over Laurel any day. 

 

However that's not what Oliver needs and they have gone out of their way to tell us that he doesn't need someone in the darkness with him, he needs someone to bring him into the light. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by Sakura12

[pootlus]

When was Laurel ever truly lonely or alone? When was that EVER portrayed on screen? After Ollie and Sara died, she still went to law school, made a best friend who she worked with and was dating Tommy and seemed pretty damn happy and content. And when Ollie came back, she had already started rebuilding her relationship with her father. Then had Oliver and Tommy and was bouncing back and forth.  What the fuck? Loneliness, my ass.

 

ETA:  A glass of alcohol in her hand and popping pills does not a compelling case for lonely addict make. IMO Cassidy sure as hell never imbued Laurel with any underlying angst and sadness that would ever lead to me "Oh look Laurel is suffering". Nope.

 

Quite.

 

Oliver called Laurel when she was (presumably) at law school and as much as I got anything from Cassidy in that scene (and she was pretty much a blank-faced doll as she always is) it wasn't loneliness.  She had both her parents - seemed quite close to her father, less so to her mother, and a friend and boyfriend as you mentioned.

 

Sara on the other hand was surrounded for months/years by people whom she couldn't trust and probably wanted to hurt/kill her, as was Oliver (to a lesser extent because he had Yao Fei, Shado and Slade).  Not sure where that person was coming from to be honest.

[tv echo]

I also don't get the Laurel being lonely argument.  She grew up with a sister and loving parents.  In the past several years, she thought she lost her sister but she still had her loving parents.  Yes, they divorced and her father became an alcoholic for a short time.  But he sobered up and is still there in the same city supporting her.  Her mother is living in a nearby city, a short trip away - not all the way across the country.  She also had her friend at CNRI (whose name I can't remember), plus the support of the Queen family (Moira, Thea), plus the love and support of Tommy before he died.

 

During that same 5-year period, Sara was separated from her loving family, terrified and struggling to survive, forced to become an assassin in order to live.  Although we don't know exactly what she went through (other than forming an attachment with Nyssa), I imagine she felt pretty lonely.

 

Since Oliver landed on the island, he's never really been alone, alone.  He had Yao Fei, Slade and Shado, then Sara, and now he's apparently (flashback-wise) with Waller and ARGUS.  We don't know yet about the remaining 3 years away, except that he's back on the island alone when he's rescued.

 

Even Felicity has no father and an estranged mother (and no siblings that we know of).  She seems to have no "family" support in Starling City and thus formed a surrogate family with Oliver and Diggle. 

 

Now if we were talking about self-pity, then I would agree that Laurel is the queen of self-pity.

Edited September 22, 2014 by tv echo

[bethy]

You can feel lonely without being alone. I think Laurel probably has been lonely - with Oliver even before he left because he didn't seem to find her to be "enough," with her father after her mother left because he was drinking, lonely in the loss of Oliver and Sara even if she was mad at both of them, maybe lonely with Tommy because he wasn't who she really wanted. I don't know. But I think loneliness can happen even when there are people around us.  The same actually goes for Oliver when he was with other people - though it seems like he had connection with people on the island pre-Hong Kong - I'm betting he was pretty lonely while with Waller and Argus. 

 

Having said that, I don't think the idea that Laurel has some sort of special insight into loneliness is really supportable.  Sara, in particular, as has already been stated, has surely experienced a depth of loneliness that Laurel never has.

Edited September 22, 2014 by bethy

[Starfish35]

Having said that, I don't think the idea that Laurel has some sort of special insight into loneliness is really supportable. Sara, in particular, as has already been stated, has surely experienced a depth of loneliness that Laurel never has.

Exactly.