Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

The way they did The Flash's introduction, IMO, was perfect. First, Barry was introduced as a regular guy. Second, he was useful to the plot. Third, he was useful in pushing forward Olicity. Fourth, he didn't displace anybody on the team because he brought in unique skills. Fifth, I didn't have to see him become a "hero," that happened on his own show. I just got enough taste of Barry to be intrigued and to watch his show (during the first 1 1/2 seasons, at least). And most importantly, it only took 2 episodes. Maybe if they bring in the insta-masks in short bursts, fewer of them and scattered throughout the seasons, and they are actually useful to the story and the main characters, instead of the main characters being used to prop them up (Wild Dung bringing Digg's kid to him might have made me hate him even more than all the arrogant shit he's pulled), maybe, just maybe I might give them a chance. 

[ladylaw99]

I agree with you regarding Barry, I didn't mind him.

[Morrigan2575]

I loved Barry's introduction

I loved Roy's introduction

I loved Sara's introduction in 205.  I did not like the storyline that followed in 214+.

I was OK with Thea's introduction in 323 but, that was more of a hey let's give her a cool looking intro and then not have her interact with anyone else for 5 months

I hated, hated (no surprise) Laurel's introduction (both times, 221 and 311)

I hated, Evelyn's introduction in 419, didn't care about S5.  Evelyn was pretty much a nothing character in S5 until 507.

I was OK with Curtis's introduction in S4, hated his introduction in S5 (as physical team member instead of tech support)

I actually like Rene and liked his introduction

I like Rory and his introduction was very well done.  I just don't like Ragman, i don't think that fits or belongs on Arrow.

I do agree that the biggest problem with the Noobs is that there's too many at the same time.  Not only that but that they're there all the time.  I think it would have worked better to have them pop in and out of the story, maybe rotate which noob shows up each week, etc.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

21 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not only that but that they're there all the time.  I think it would have worked better to have them pop in and out of the story, maybe rotate which noob shows up each week, etc.

So much this. Right now they're just a bunch of people standing around in the bunker doing nothing much (at one point it looked like they were recreating the scene from the Last Supper the way the director blocked the scene). It was one of my problems with Laurel and Thea last season, lots of times they were mainly in the background offering a line or two when Oliver, Digg and Felicity were discussing tactics, etc. If they rotated the boobs, then maybe they'd feel a little bit more of an individual than this mass that, well, we call boobs. Their individual personalities might get to shine more and they'd interact with everybody, instead of having Curtis and Rory be Felicity's, Wild Dog be Digg's, etc. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[HighHopes]

I've been thinking about this and I am starting to think that Ray/Felicity were not the intended couple in season three. Season 3A, sure. But I think that it was supposed to end with the "I don't regret kissing you" scene. 

Colton Haynes mentioned back then that there was a relationship that got cut from the storyline that they were intending to do, and it was later confirmed at the 100th episode party that it was supposed to be Roy/Felicity. I think Roy/Felicity were supposed to happen in 3B, and when they decided against that they went back to Ray/Felicity. And that's why it seemed to off? Especially with Felicity breaking up with him and then sleeping with Oliver in the same episode. (She can sleep with how many dudes she wants, but it was the fact that it all happened in the same episode that threw me off).

I think they needed a storyline to happen, of Felicity realizing she loves Oliver, wanted her to date someone, and then when they cut the Roy stuff, they added in Ray instead. We know from MG that these writers/EPs have "pillars" for each season, and instead of changing their plan and not having Felicity/R(x)y happen at all, they kept to their original plan but just rearranged some characters and changed a few things in order to keep the "pillar" the same. 

[looptab]

Was it confirmed? Do you mean by Colton? i thought he was joking. And, at the time, I thought they had an half idea of going for Roy/Laurel - given that he was the one to accept her in the team. (Thank God it didn't happen).

[HighHopes]

2 minutes ago, looptab said:

Was it confirmed? Do you mean by Colton? i thought he was joking. And, at the time, I thought they had an half idea of going for Roy/Laurel - given that he was the one to accept her in the team. (Thank God it didn't happen).

There was an interview from the 100th party with EBR and CH and they talked about how it was supposed to happen, but the writers/EPs changed their mind. I think CH mentioned it previously too? 

[looptab]

You mean he talked previously specifically about Felicity/Roy? I do remember him saying that they were going to do a storyline and then changed their minds - I think it was at Paleyfest.

About the interview, I do remember seeing a bit with the two of them mentioning this - can't remember whether I saw a gif or the actual video, though - but I just assumed he was joking.

[HighHopes]

I remember mentioning the Felicity/Roy to my friend when CH mentioned it in the interview, and we both remember him mentioning Felicity/Roy before. I think they were serious, but it was also an interview with CH/EBR so there is a chance they were just joking. I wish I could find the video of it but my google skills are currently failing me. 

ETA: Found it. The interview with CH/EBR starts around the 1:20 mark. 

http://olicity-i-believe-in-you.tumblr.com/post/152640650539/emily-bett-rickards-stephen-amell-talks-olicity

Edited December 5, 2016 by HighHopes

[ohjoy]

I'm glad they didn't go there. "Broken Arrow" is still one of my favorite episodes, being Roy's sort-of swan song, and I'm much more a fan of their platonic friendship than the idea that Felicity would be dating Thea's ex-boyfriend / Oliver's sidekick as the placeholder for Oliver. #RoyandThea4Ever

[lemotomato]

34 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

I've been thinking about this and I am starting to think that Ray/Felicity were not the intended couple in season three. Season 3A, sure. But I think that it was supposed to end with the "I don't regret kissing you" scene. 

Colton Haynes mentioned back then that there was a relationship that got cut from the storyline that they were intending to do, and it was later confirmed at the 100th episode party that it was supposed to be Roy/Felicity. I think Roy/Felicity were supposed to happen in 3B, and when they decided against that they went back to Ray/Felicity. And that's why it seemed to off? Especially with Felicity breaking up with him and then sleeping with Oliver in the same episode. (She can sleep with how many dudes she wants, but it was the fact that it all happened in the same episode that threw me off).

I think they needed a storyline to happen, of Felicity realizing she loves Oliver, wanted her to date someone, and then when they cut the Roy stuff, they added in Ray instead. We know from MG that these writers/EPs have "pillars" for each season, and instead of changing their plan and not having Felicity/R(x)y happen at all, they kept to their original plan but just rearranged some characters and changed a few things in order to keep the "pillar" the same. 

I think Ray was the only intended romantic arc for Felicity season 3 aside from Olicity. Ray/Felicity followed nearly the same beats as Sara/Oliver did in season 2-- setup in the first half of the season, hookup/start of the relationship during February sweeps, break up in episode 20. Oliver and Felicity sleeping together just also got squished to episode 20 because they wanted to have the last 3 episodes busy with the LOA stuff and the run up to the season finale. 

IIRC, aside from 302 and 306, I don't think Roy and Felicity interacted one-on-one, so I'm not sure how that could've set up a romance for 3B

Edited December 5, 2016 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

5 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I'm glad they didn't go there. "Broken Arrow" is still one of my favorite episodes, being Roy's sort-of swan song, and I'm much more a fan of their platonic friendship than the idea that Felicity would be dating Thea's ex-boyfriend / Oliver's sidekick as the placeholder for Oliver. #RoyandThea4Ever

If Thea ever does leave - which IDK I have a sinking feeling she might (whether it's because the writers want it/the actress wants to leave) - I hope instead of killing Thea off, they make her go find Roy and have her happily ever after with him 

[Chaser]

I thought CH had pitched a love triangle with Olicity. I didn't think it was storyline.

[statsgirl]

I don't think Roy/Felicity would have made sense storywise. For one thing, any who liked Thea would have been furious at Roy for deliberately breaking up with her when she still cared for him so much and moving on to Felicity.  For another, they needed to introduce Ray and they hoped that Felicity's popularity would rub off on him.  I suspect that why they didn't do Ray/Laurel, which would have made sense (find her another sparring partner) and BR and KC had some nice scenes in 3B.  They also needed to put Felicity with a character who is an alpha male (e.g. billionaire, successful so that it didn't look like she was going for someone less than Oliver) and poor Roy was never that.  I think CH and EBR teased the idea because they would have enjoyed it, they're good friends.

What Phil Klemmer does so well -- rotates the large cast and puts them into logical groupings so well that you barely notice he's doing it.

4 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Well we did get that scene with OTA where they went out for drinks in 4x03 and then most recently we had Olicity go to a concert together with the newbies but yeah the down time off duty scenes are few and far between. 

Yes to the drinks  more than a season ago.  But only Oliver and Thea went with them to the concert.  Felicity was off doing things with the throwing thingy she got from Mayo. She ran up to Oliver at the concert but it seemed like it wasn't planned for her to be there.

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Here's my problem(s) with the newbies, there were too many of them too quickly. And they were introduced during a time none of my favorite elements of the show (Olicity and OTA) were present so my head is already equating them to the show sucking for me. And because I've always hated how the insta-masks seem to sideline Diggle & Felicity (from Roy and Sara to the current crop), I immediately resent them

Not only was Barry introduced more slowly and in a storyline that was about Oliver, not Barry himself (unlike Laurel and the n00bs), it was at a time when things were still in flux.  Oliver/Diggle was pretty much established as was Diggle/Felicity but Oliver/Felicity was still very fluid so it made sense that Barry would disrupt them as did Sara.  Roy fit in precisely because he didn't disrupt any of the established relationships.

I can understand what the EPs were thinking, that they had to bring on some new characters to change things up but I think they made 2 big mistakes -- breaking up Oliver and Felicity and having little OTA while isolating Diggle with Wild Puppy because they're both ex-military because they have less in common than Felicity does with Rory.  A third problem was making all three female characters props for the stories of the male characters, and a fourth is how badly they've messed up Curtis, who was very popular last season and a drag on the fighting team and a millstone to Felicity this season.

Edited December 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[Morrigan2575]

57 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I thought CH had pitched a love triangle with Olicity. I didn't think it was storyline.

Exactly.  He pitched the idea and EBR says the EPs said no because they didn't have any chemistry.  That wasn't to my understanding an actual storyline that got squashed.  It also doesn't really make sense, since the EPs started talking up Ray as Felicity's love interest the summer before the show started.  They were already talking about Ralicity at SDCC.

[looptab]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I don't think Roy/Felicity would have made sense storywise. For one thing, any who liked Thea would have been furious at Roy for deliberately breaking up with her when she still cared for him so much and moving on to Felicity.   .

This is a moot point, but at that point it was Thea that had broken up with Roy and was banging a douche dj. :)

[statsgirl]

Thea broke up with Roy because Roy set it up that way on Oliver's orders.  Without Oliver interfering, she probably would still have been with Roy (because he would have told her he was working with the Arrow, at least in my head canon).

The fact that she was banging the douche dj/assassin because she wasn't dating Roy any more would just have made it worse for me.

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Thea broke up with Roy because Roy set it up that way on Oliver's orders.  Without Oliver interfering, she probably would still have been with Roy (because he would have told her he was working with the Arrow, at least in my head canon).

They reconciled at the end of S2 for about 5 minutes, but then Thea took off because she found out Roy was working with the Arrow after he told her he was done with all of that (or something along those lines) - he told her during the Mirakudude siege that he loved her and wanted to leave with her but there was something he had to take care of before they left - I think that's when she found his vigilante stuff. That's why she wound up leaving with Malcolm.

Edited December 5, 2016 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I know.  That's why I said that in my head canon Roy would have told her he was working with the Arrow if they hadn't broken up in s2 because he couldn't be going out with her for almost two years and not have told her he's working with the Arrow.  How would he have explained those mysterious calls at night?  The bruises?

We'll see how long Curtis can hold out not telling Paul.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I know.  That's why I said that in my head canon Roy would have told her he was working with the Arrow if they hadn't broken up in s2 because he couldn't be going out with her for almost two years and not have told her he's working with the Arrow.  How would he have explained those mysterious calls at night?  The bruises?

We'll see how long Curtis can hold out not telling Paul.

Sorry, I misread - I thought you were talking about Roy breaking up with Thea on Oliver's orders earlier in the season. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. Oliver definitely engineered the first breakup - your headcanon aside, at the end of the 2nd season, Thea asked Roy about the Arrow, and he said he didn't know anything about him. Unless I'm not remembering something, didn't Roy tell that lie on his own? If he was getting ready to leave town with Thea for good, there wasn't any reason to just say, "I'm done with the Arrow" and leave it at that. 

[statsgirl]

It doesn't matter now in terms of the show but my head canon is that if Roy hadn't broken up with Thea on Oliver's orders, he would have eventually told her that he was working with the Arrow so the dramatics of her walking out on him because he lied to her!  (yes, this is the same Thea who said that Oliver was right to lie to Felicity), wouldn't have happened.

[kismet]

I do think that a dropped portion of Roy's storyline in s3 was a romantic arc. But I don't think it was with FS, it seemed to be heading more with LL. Either way its to hard to confirm if the speculation or indicators meant anything because I think they dropped it pretty soon into 3b when CH decided to take a break from the show. And then I think the storywriters did something right for once and let him reconcile with TQ. Roy's arc in s3 was one of the only ones that I would classify as successful and enjoyable. Most of s3 had wonky and horribly constructed arcs for just about every other character.

[BkWurm1]

On 12/8/2016 at 11:10 AM, kismet said:

I do think that a dropped portion of Roy's storyline in s3 was a romantic arc. But I don't think it was with FS, it seemed to be heading more with LL. Either way its to hard to confirm if the speculation or indicators meant anything because I think they dropped it pretty soon into 3b when CH decided to take a break from the show. And then I think the storywriters did something right for once and let him reconcile with TQ. Roy's arc in s3 was one of the only ones that I would classify as successful and enjoyable. Most of s3 had wonky and horribly constructed arcs for just about every other character.

I saw what could have been the foundation being laid for a Roy/Laurel romance but I'm glad we didn't get it.  I would have liked to see them be in a more overt friendship or partnership, but I'm just not interested in a bunch of partner swapping on the show.  I like that Roy loved Thea and that was it even if he had to go away.  It would have been messy if he had any other intimate associates, lol.  

[bijoux]

I never got that impression about Roy and Laurel, though it could be that I wasn't paying that much attention. 

Would Arsenal have been below Black Canary's comic book level if it had happened?

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I never got that impression about Roy and Laurel, though it could be that I wasn't paying that much attention. 

Would Arsenal have been below Black Canary's comic book level if it had happened?

They were pushing "everybody is equal" by the following season so why not start right away when she joins the team.  

I don't think there was anything overtly romantic between Roy and Laurel but he seemed to be paired up with her and had her back and I thought that could translate to Laurel being grateful and Roy getting sucked in by her...ambition.  ;)

[SmallScreenDiva]

I imagine KC would have thrown a fit if LL had been paired with Roy, LOL! She probably would have considered it an insult to go from the leading lady of the hero to what sharing Roy with Thea? But I don't think Arrow was going there at all or had given an indication it was something it was toying with. That whole thing with the LI was just something Colton joked about it, IMO.

Edited December 16, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[ladylaw99]

After reading some people's comments in the last episode "Left behind" I realized the writers for me have tarnished the relationship between Oliver and Felicity.  I really don't care if they get together anymore.The way Oliver is being written again I am finding myself disliking him.  I am pretty sure I am suppose to root for the hero but, I don't.

At this point I would prefer a great storyline for Felicity, preferably without involving a man. These writers have managed to take a good relationship and (for me) completely ruin it.  At this point I believe Felicity is too good for Oliver.  She deserves someone who is going to put her first. I realize this show is about Oliver's journey but they lost me when Oliver can't seem to get his sh$t together after 5 years.

I am tired of him making the same mistakes over and over again and still not learning from it. At some point the writers have got to turn this around and actually make Oliver smart, compassionate and likable.

There was so much that  I use to like about this show and there is still somethings I am still holding on to but I am running out of patience.

I would be quite happy with good story telling regarding Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Rory.  I would watch that show.

If they continue to write Oliver this way he will become my new Laurel and at that point I will have to give up on the show because if I ff his scenes what would be the point of watching.

I am hanging on in hopes that the writers can turn it around with Felicity 's arc in 5b, I won't hold my breath but stranger things have happened.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

The way Oliver is being written again I am finding myself disliking him.

I'm not actually finding myself disliking Oliver lately so much as realizing I just don't care that much about what he's doing or feeling.  It's not surprising really since I've always struggled to connect with Oliver on his own.  I connect to him through the people he connects with and his feelings for them.  Which is a big problem this year since to start with, he's a lot more closed off than he's been before, so the time he spends opening up or sharing his feelings and emotions is a lot less, but even when he does, he is doing it with characters that I can't connect to at all and very little with the characters I care about.

 I do like Thea but Oliver's time with Thea isn't substantive.  It's mostly just housekeeping on his Mayoral story line.  He's had some chats with Diggle but really, not that many.  Maybe three that weren't Team Arrow or Villain of the Week housekeeping stuff?  A few nice early moments with Felicity but that was weeks ago.

 He's had conversations with the Noobs, but yeah, they're noobs and the conversations have been IMO really impersonal even when he's trying to open up.  And repetitive. It feels forced since there's just not a rapport set up between the Noobs and Oliver (let alone the Noobs and the audience.)

And then there is Susan.  The worst choice to open up to since Isabel.  I don't dislike Oliver when he talks to her, I question his intelligence and wonder what the hell is going on?   And if this is supposed to be really what he thinks makes sense, who is this guy, cause he isn't acting like Oliver would act. It leaves me so disconnected to the show as a whole.  

Edited December 18, 2016 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

I still like Oliver overall. I find that the things he does that really anger me are, imo, very out of character for where he's supposed to be in his character evolution - like last season's deceiving Felicity about the BMD and this season's opening up to a reporter. I've read some reviews which love that Oliver has gone back to being the S1 killer. Putting aside the inaccuracy of that statement, Oliver is not supposed to regress to his S1 self. He's supposed to progress toward a more balanced and mentally healthy state, as he recovers from what he suffered during those 5 years away and figures out who he is now.

As others have said and I agree, it was Diggle and Felicity who made Oliver likeable in S1.  Even four years later, I find that it is still Diggle and Felicity - and now also Thea - who make Oliver likeable.

Edited December 18, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I just want to point out that the show left a loophole in terms of who is the love of Oliver's life. Per current show canon, Laurel is not the love of Oliver's life, but it's never been said outright that Felicity is the love of Oliver's life...

Oliver: “You kept this? (Holding up old photo of Laurel that he had on the island)
Laurel: “Yeah. Just a little reminder of when things were simpler. For us - the way we used to be. I'm really glad that you found Felicity, and I hope you find your way back to her. And Ollie, I know that I am not the love of your life… but you will always be the love of mine.” 

It's written so that they could go either way with Felicity.

Edited December 18, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

They also had Oliver saying that she was his always. I mean, sure, it can change. It does in real life as well, let alone on a TV show. But I don't think they've been vague about it.

[dtissagirl]

Arrow hasn't really been a show in which HOW words are used is taken into consideration in the writing. So it hasn't put any kind of importance into the words "love of my/your life" for it to be a defining thing for any character, like, say, Once Upon a Time goes out of its way to do.

[tangerine95]

Yeah tbh LL saying Oliver is the love of her life seems more like a KC thing they put in the script imo because that's what she would say in every interview, than anything the actual show put any focus on. I don't get the sense they're waiting to have Oliver say that to the right person or anything like that. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by tangerine95

[ladylaw99]

That's the problem, if I can't connect with Oliver then I just do not like him.  I didn't care for season 1 Oliver until Diggle and Felicity . I never really cared who Oliver dated unless it affected Diggle or Felicity. I think the show was lucky to get the chemistry  between SA and EBR so for me it was enjoyable to watch. I didn't even mind Sara.

For me I deal with stupid situations everyday so I don' t want to watch a show with someone who was suppose to grow because of the bad choices he made only to see him still making bad choices.  Like others have said by now he should have grown not resort back to Oli.

Who knows maybe the writers will shock me and all this bad writing for Oliver was on purpose.  

Of course this is how I feel and I am glad people still enjoy him -I am just not one of them.

[kismet]

As someone who never found OQ unlikeable and has always ranked him my favorite character - I will say this season has failed to make me interested in his character or his journey. His aloofness and closed-off character was appealing in earlier seasons because it was logical considering all he had suffered. It was a good character choice, likewise him gradually opening up and investing in his relationships with Dig, FS & TQ was indicative of healing and growth. Not all character growth is linear. There are setbacks and failures. Life is often day by day. BMD was significant backpedaling on his growth, but I could understand it as a poor choice. As much as it hurt to see OQ regress, it also made sense that when threatened - he might choose wrong. It's actually one of the reasons the break-up of O/F frustrated me because I would have loved to see them attempting to work it out so that OQ could understand how his decisions impact his relationships. How he undervalued the importance of his partnership with FS. That being said, I do believe FS had every right to walk away, I just wish they had used it more to inform OQ of his character and less as melodramatic flair.

This season his relationships are not revealing of his character or his growth. Nothing this season indicates that character growth is even something on the writer's agenda. It's just setting up a team to replace the people the show got rid of for plot purposes. He just goes through the motions and has conversations with people. I'm not invested in his journey this season because OQ is not invested in himself. They have shifted this story to be too much about his relationship with the City which was never a relationship in the show. Having seen bits and pieces of the comics, it seems that comic canon would state that OQ's relationship with his City is very deep and high ranking a priority. Nothing in the 5 seasons of TV canon lead me to believe that the City was that important to OQ. Truth & justice, perhaps. Saving innocent people, a definite. Honoring the promise to his father, a must. Even his mayoral campaign was about defeating DD, not about him wanting to improve SC. But committing full time to the City was never something that seemed tantamount to his life's mission. However, what do I know - I watch the television for interesting character journeys and logical plots - something Arrow abandoned a few seasons ago..

[Hiveminder]

I have to say I'm not nearly as upset with Oliver as some are, but I think that's because I see everything he and every other character has done this season as plot driven. 

I think they could have made Oliver's dedicating himself to the city all of the sudden into a reaction to loosing his happy future with Felicity, and it could have been very compelling. But they didn't do that. Instead they try to fool us into thinking Oliver's been about the city instead of his family. 

I feel like the writers and show runners are treating the viewers like idiots, so instead of being mad at the characters for their poor choices I feel sorry for them for being stuck in this show. All my anger is aimed at the behind the scenes people because I know if the characters were allowed to progress logically none they would be making smarter choices, or at least more understandable mistakes. 

[statsgirl]

Poor Thea.  She really is just an after though to Oliver these days, and she has no one else.  Her parents are dead, Laurel is dead, and Roy is permanently in hiding.  Oh, and Alex is dead too.

Add me to the list of people who is simply not interesting in Oliver alone, especially when he is regressing to s1.  There are plenty of shows in which the characters are emotionally frozen in ice and never change (Gibbs on NCIS comes to mind) but I'm not interested in them.  The whole point of Oliver's five year journey was to show how he grows in his Hero's Journey.  it feels like the show has tried so hard this season to get back the comic book crowd (all 50,000) of them that they've sacrificed everything else on the show.  (What makes it worse for me is that the B section of the season is usually when it goes downhill so knowing how bad 5A was makes me despair for 5B.)

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And then there is Susan.  The worst choice to open up to since Isabel.  I don't dislike Oliver when he talks to her, I question his intelligence and wonder what the hell is going on?   And if this is supposed to be really what he thinks makes sense, who is this guy, cause he isn't acting like Oliver would act. It leaves me so disconnected to the show as a whole.  

Giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, I can see where they might want the audience to speculate about Susan and her motives, and whether she is going to be a good person in the end.  Or maybe Oliver sees through her and he's just going all James Bond in sleeping with her knowing she's one of the bad guys.

The problem is that the more Oliver interacts with her, the more I think he's an idiot, and the less I feel like rooting for him.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I have to say I'm not nearly as upset with Oliver as some are, but I think that's because I see everything he and every other character has done this season as plot driven. 

They've been doing that since S2. At this point, I've accepted that when push comes to shove Arrow will always put plot over character.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They've been doing that since S2. At this point, I've accepted that when push comes to shove Arrow will always put plot over character.

I could argue that they've been doing that since season one, but there was always something else that made the show enjoyable and engaging. I can't quite put my finger on what it was, but starting  in season four but mostly in this season whatever that was is lacking. 

[Morrigan2575]

They probably did start in S1, I just don't remember the little things. I think it became more obvious in S2 and, beyond because the stories got bigger.

To bring this back to topic. I have been working under the assumption that Oliver talking to Susan in 7 and 9 was simply due to some plot point they NEED to happen. So, while it makes no sense in context of the show or character, Oliver shares his emotional concerns with a reporter that made Thea look like a chump and could destroy Oliver, his Mayoral aspirations and Team Arrow.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They've been doing that since S2. At this point, I've accepted that when push comes to shove Arrow will always put plot over character.

Yes but it feels like usually it's short term.  This season it feels like it's just a constant.  

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

To bring this back to topic. I have been working under the assumption that Oliver talking to Susan in 7 and 9 was simply due to some plot point they NEED to happen. So, while it makes no sense in context of the show or character, Oliver shares his emotional concerns with a reporter that made Thea look like a chump and could destroy Oliver, his Mayoral aspirations and Team Arrow.

Just like the show NEEDED Oliver to lie to Felicity about the BMD.  It's not logical but plot point.  I get what they are doing, it's just when it doesn't make sense, it pulls me as a viewer out of the story.  They used to remember that it was the characters that grounded all the fantastical elements.  

 

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

What makes it worse for me is that the B section of the season is usually when it goes downhill so knowing how bad 5A was makes me despair for 5B.

I know.  I'm living in dread.  But occasionally when I'm feeling optimistic I wonder if somehow because 5A was so disappointing that what comes next has to be better...or at least not any worse?  I know.  Wishful thinking.  

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Just like the show NEEDED Oliver to lie to Felicity about the BMD.  It's not logical but plot point.  I get what they are doing, it's just when it doesn't make sense, it pulls me as a viewer out of the story.  They used to remember that it was the characters that grounded all the fantastical elements. 

I'd say the show needed Oliver to break up with Felicity.  But I think those highly paid writers should have found a better way than having him lie to her about the BMD.

You're right about them needing the characters to ground the fantastical elements.  They've forgotten what made Arrow work.

Edited December 19, 2016 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

35 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'd say the show needed Oliver to break up with Felicity.  But I think those highly paid writers should have found a better way than having him lie to her about the BMD.

You are right of course.  It comes down to laziness IMO.  Coming up with a legitimate reason for Oliver to lie to Felicity and for them then to break up at that stage in their relationship after all they'd already been through and came through would have been very hard.  Which is why they didn't try, IMO.  

Edited December 19, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

You are right of course.  It comes down to laziness IMO.  Coming up with a legitimate reason for Oliver to.    lie to Felicity and for them then to break up at that stage in their relationship after all they'd already been through and came through would have been very hard.  Which is why they didn't try, IMO.  

Laziness and economics. They had 2 things they wanted to do. Close off the Baby Mama storyline that started in 220 and, had a specific Need/Desire to have Olicity break up by Episode 15 (for whatever reason).

I imagine it was an easy idea to them, tie the breakup to the BMD. Bam! Two Birds with One Stone. They could have done a better job on both stories but, it didn't matter to them. It wasn't about the stories or the characters both were simply plot points that had to be executed.

I don't know when it started. I used to say S2 and blamed the lack of AJK. I figured the balanced each other out and, that's why S1 was more about characters than any of the subsequent seasons. However, now I'm more inclined to believe it was Berlanti's growing empire and lack of direct attention to each show that allowed MG to turn Arrow into Plot over Character.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

AJK only left in s3 when they got The Flash.  I thought he was more important to good storytelling on Arrow but he's Character over Plot, specifically boypain and I find I can't watch The Flash any more except for crossovers.

I agree that the problem seems to be Berlanti's lack of time for the shows. (Blindspot is now getting a spin-off.)  Berlanti seems to be the only one with enough common sense to blend plot with character.  I had hopes for Wendy Mericle coming on as a co-showrunner and while s4 was better until the stupidity of the BMD, the show has pretty much been a mess plot-wise since 415.  Maybe she doesn't get it or maybe she doesn't have the clout.

I still don't understand why they had to close off the BMD story in s4.   It wasn't connected to the season's arc at all and if anyone was clamouring for it be come back, I didn't hear them.

In terms of relationships, the show has always suffered from people being left in a bubble. We've complained lots about the lack of Felicity/Thea conversations (the only one I remember is post-bee attack last season) and the Felicity/Laurel bffs seemed to come out of nowhere in s3 when they needed Laurel to be a real part of the Team in s3.

I understand that they wanted to recruit a new team in s5 as well as wanting Oliver and Felicity apart but I think it would have been better if they hadn't kept Diggle apart in his army plot and WD mentoring and isolated Thea with Lance in the mayor's office.  Keeping some of the existing interactions among the original characters would have tempered the abrasiveness of spending so much time this season on the newbies.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I know I'll end up going D'OH! But who is AJK?

Thanks much.

[SmallScreenDiva]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know I'll end up going D'OH! But who is AJK?

Thanks much.

Andrew J. Kreisberg, one of the original showrunners (think he's still credited as an executive producer) :)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

Andrew J. Kreisberg, one of the original showrunners (think he's still credited as an executive producer) :)

D'OH! Of course! Thanks @SmallScreenDiva!

I feel all y'all's' pain. I went through it all (along with @BkWurm1) during the latter third of the Smallville seasons. I'm especially bitter because the two hacks that eventually took over had been with the show since day one. So they had/have no excuse for the butchery and massacre.

But, this isn't the place for me to vent my spleen so I'll shut up.

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't know when it started. I used to say S2 and blamed the lack of AJK. I figured the balanced each other out and, that's why S1 was more about characters than any of the subsequent seasons. However, now I'm more inclined to believe it was Berlanti's growing empire and lack of direct attention to each show that allowed MG to turn Arrow into Plot over Character.

I think Arrow has always prioritized plot over character, even during Season 1. But because the characters were so new, it wasn't a problem, or at least an obvious problem. 5 seasons later, viewers have enough understanding of the characters so when they do something off it's a bit more jarring. Now, I wonder if Plot over Character would have worked better for Arrow if they decided to keep it a Villain of the Week type of show instead of going with a more serialized style of storytelling. 

[rtalive]

I think that Felicity breaking up with Oliver after her being paralyzed, could have been interesting story line. He is a street vigilante that works at night and brings a lot of danger, and she needs a lot of care right now. They could have showed him getting darker again. She also could have helped the team from her home and turn it into her office. This also could have allowed her character to develop more on her own and have her own story and dealing with her injury.