Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[LeighAn]

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

IMO, yes because they were trying to sell the Ray spinoff and upcoming *twists* over anything Oliver/Felicity related. The only pleasure I remember really getting is SA's disgruntled looks regarding the "love triangle."

Yeah I'm pretty sure they used the whole "He's  a good guy who loves her and we hope the audience roots for" line with Ray too. But I think what's new is they didn't have the absence of hope. It was all "can Olicity be together" rather then " Olicity aren't necessarily going to get together this season and we are writing away from romance and we only put them together cause chemistry and maybe we will put them back cause chemistry". And I actually do believe they will get back together this season but I think the writers want to downplay any romance or shipper stuff until they do. Again I think it's a reaction to the whole anti Olicity sentiment last season. Only thing is it's disheartening and turning Olicity fans off the show right now and when Olicity do get back together  chances are they same people who hated them in season 3 and 4 are still going to hate them in season 5 and 6 and will still blame them for everything wrong in the world. 

[ladylaw99]

I know nothing about shipping. Do you guys think that people who love the couple will still be around to watch if the do get together?

[way2interested]

28 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Yeah I'm pretty sure they used the whole "He's  a good guy who loves her and we hope the audience roots for" line with Ray too. But I think what's new is they didn't have the absence of hope. It was all "can Olicity be together" rather then " Olicity aren't necessarily going to get together this season and we are writing away from romance and we only put them together cause chemistry and maybe we will put them back cause chemistry". And I actually do believe they will get back together this season but I think the writers want to downplay any romance or shipper stuff until they do. Again I think it's a reaction to the whole anti Olicity sentiment last season. Only thing is it's disheartening and turning Olicity fans off the show right now and when Olicity do get back together  chances are they same people who hated them in season 3 and 4 are still going to hate them in season 5 and 6 and will still blame them for everything wrong in the world. 

I see where you're coming from, but to me this is just equal because they're playing the same game that they did in s3 and s4. They are jumping from expecting me to never have seen a tv couple before for their plot execution (thinking that temp LIs are legitimate, thinking they broke of for legitimate reasons, etc.) to expecting me to understand the normal tropes of a tv couple (not be mad when new LIs come in, not to be mad when they break up seemingly for good because it's "the journey," etc.). They've done this this whole time, and I think it's just annoying this time around because this is the most boring part of the trope around (waiting for them to get back together) and that they are retreading on already done plot points (temp LIs). Their comments are definitely not helping, but neither did some of their comments in s3 and s4 help to me either.

All of this is just my opinion, because I agree with what you're saying, but this flip-flopping in their expectations is what's bothering me more. Until they do things that subvert my expectations (which they have done before, even if it's been a little while), or at least pick a side with how they are trying to talk, then all of their comments just comes down to a "We can't have the main couple together right now because reasons but I can't say that, so..." answer.

Quote

I know nothing about shipping. Do you guys think that people who love the couple will still be around to watch if the do get together?

That's the $64,000 question for the network to decide.

Edited November 16, 2016 by way2interested

[Thundercatmary]

3 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

I know nothing about shipping. Do you guys think that people who love the couple will still be around to watch if the do get together?

I know I would, I really liked them together in 4A. The show has enough drama already, all the Olicity drama in 4B was not necessary imo.

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

I know nothing about shipping. Do you guys think that people who love the couple will still be around to watch if the do get together?

Shippers are individuals and everyone is different.  There is no one blanket answer.  

[LeighAn]

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Shippers are individuals and everyone is different.  There is no one blanket answer.  

I absolutely agree. Their will be some who might be enjoying how things are right now and will stick around come rain or shine, others who will throw in the towel because the show isn't working for them or bringing them enjoyment and others who will chose selective viewing and watch bits and pieces that suit them or go on hiatus from the show and pick it back up when it's entertaining for them again. There's no right or wrong way to watch. 

[statsgirl]

They are assuming that all the people who loved seeing them get together once and go through all those hurdles to get there, will be equally enthusiastic to see it wash, rinse, repeat.

I think that's a bad bet.

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They are assuming that all the people who loved seeing them get together once and go through all those hurdles to get there, will be equally enthusiastic to see it wash, rinse, repeat.

I think that's a bad bet.

I can only speak for myself but I think this is the last chance for me. If they break them up a third time then I'll probably be out for good. Already I'm finding myself more entertained by other shows on the air and feel Im only watching Arrow out of habit and loyalty then anything. I like the whole Oliver and Felicity playing mum and dad to newbie vigilantes but my enjoyment of that aspect isn't enough to compensate the lack of Olicity OTA and anything compelling for Felicity or Diggle in the way of storylines.

[MaisyDaisy]

I think part of the problem is they are writing outdated troupes. Stuff that might have worked 5-6 years ago (manpain trumping female agency, soap style romantic drama), but now audiences are more connected via the internet, social media is the new back fence and social conscience is shifting, and there is a more vocal comentary for how female characters are treated. 4A got so much praise because it was so refreshing to see a healthy relationship, that didnt overwhelm the rest of the show, or rely on cheap drama.

One thing to consider is that with the rise of twitter, tumblr, facebook, fanfiction.net and AO3, its become very easy for shippers to enjoy a full fandom experience without watching the show. When TVD and TO started ratings hemorrhaging (they killed off some of its biggest ships and the writers went full on hate towards fans- telling them not to watch if they dont like it, and promising things that never eventuated) a few of its fandoms have continued to thrive and are massively active- they just stopped watching the show.

Edited November 16, 2016 by MaisyDaisy

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, LeighAn said:

 Their will be some who might be enjoying how things are right now and will stick around come rain or shine, others who will throw in the towel because the show isn't working for them or bringing them enjoyment and others who will chose selective viewing and watch bits and pieces that suit them or go on hiatus from the show and pick it back up when it's entertaining for them again. 

And others that will keep watching in spite of not enjoying how things are right now, gritting their teeth and trying to wait it out, hoping one day their show will come back to them and basically torturing themselves in the meantime because they can't stand not knowing the whole story, even if they don't like that part of it at all.  (and by others, I mean me)

And still others that even if the show hits of place of no return, they might just hate watch it so they know what they need to fix in fanfic.  But I'm really hoping it doesn't come to that.  Been there, done that.  I hate the T-shirt.  Arrow was supposed to be my Smallville do over.  (insert worried face)    

[Mellowyellow]

Soooo the au photo of Ray and Felicity has got me tickled pink and I rewatched the Legends clip where he said he would have stayed for her. And she kisses him on the cheek. They were so cute together *sniffles* 

COME BACK RAY!!!!!!! 

I swear I will have an epic MELTDOWN if Felicity says she loves Mayo!!!!! Not only would they have managed to screw up Olicity for me I will spend the rest of my days raging that poor Ray was short changed.  I'm totally on the boat with Oliver being the love of her life but I swear Mayo had better not outrank Ray! 

[quarks]

From the "Invasion" episode thread:

Are we sure that AK didn't write this episode? Because I thought a lot of Oliver's dialogue supported AK's recent interview statement that Laurel is Oliver's "great love." I also thought that this episode downplayed Oliver's love for Felicity.

 

That's not what Kreisberg said.  He said that Laurel "was" Oliver's great love, not "is."  

I'd also deeply disagree that this episode downplayed Oliver's love for Felicity.  I'd argue the direct opposite.

1. As all five eventually realized, their memories/feelings were implanted by aliens.

Ray even specifically noted that instead of Anna, the fiancee who inspired him to become a time traveling hero, the aliens paired him with Felicity - a woman he dated for a couple of months, before eventually moving on to Kendra, a woman he lived with for two years (off screen) and also wanted to marry before Plot Interfered. I'm sure that Ray still has some feelings for Felicity - this episode and a scene in Legends of Tomorrow implies that - but she was also the shallowest/briefest of his three major relationships that we know about. I'd even argue that at this point, Ray has deeper feelings for Mick. And yet, that was the woman the aliens chose to pair Ray with - showing that the aliens were not necessarily putting the five of them with the people they most loved.

On a related note, Diggle wasn't with Lyla, his wife, and Thea wasn't with any of the four men we've seen her with on the show - the one episode guy from the first season, Roy, the DJ, or boring guy from last season. (In fact, boring guy appeared in Oliver's memories, not hers.) Sara wasn't with Nyssa or, well, Leonard Snart.

Which is to say, none of the five characters were paired with their great loves, though two of them were paired with people they'd cared about.

2. After seeing Smoak Technologies and Diggle-as-Hood, Oliver left his own rehearsal dinner to try to track down his memories of the Arrow Cave - which is to say, once again, he placed Team Arrow over Laurel. Hey, we are back to the first and second seasons again.

3. Oliver didn't immediately go to Laurel after his Felicity flashbacks. Instead, he stayed at the Arrow Cave and argued with Felicity and Diggle until Diggle threw him out.

That was during the rehearsal dinner.  Oliver didn't go to Laurel until the following day - late enough in that day that she'd already showered/had her hair done/gotten into her wedding dress. That is, well into the morning, after enough time had passed for Diggle to do some research/thinking and for Ray to talk to his version of Felicity about Smoak Technologies, and after a night of sleep where presumably the aliens manipulated his emotions/memories again. 

And yes, the aliens were paying attention - notice how, the second Oliver chose to leave, his parents started telling him about how perfect his life was and how he should stay, and then, once the five of them left, the aliens sent the Big Bads to try to slow down their departure.

4. After telling Laurel that he wanted to marry her right there and then - a lovely thought that Laurel responded to with "but think about the wedding guests!" geesh, alien Laurel, try to be a little more tempting here -  the moment Diggle appeared at the door, Oliver headed off with Diggle. A few minutes later, both of them had confirmed that they were in a fake universe and had to leave. At this point, even the aliens realized that their world was not really convincing or tempting and sent Deathstroke.

5. From that point on, Oliver was determined to leave - he only waited to pick up Sara, Ray, and Thea and say goodbye to his parents before taking off.  The rest of the slowdowns were all attempts by the aliens to keep them there a little bit longer to let them finish downloading info from Ray (science, and now, history!), Diggle (U.S. military/covert info), Oliver (info on ARGUS and Bratva), Sara (time travel capabilities) and Thea (fashion tips). 

6. He finished matters off with Laurel by, yes, saying "I love you," but also saying that she deserved better (NO KIDDING, OLIVER) and that he wasn't the man she'd fallen in love with. In other words, he finished things off by pointing out that Oliver/Laurel would never have worked.

And then he took off, preferring to be in the world of Arrow, where people die weekly and we're still not sure if the city has solved its 4th season sushi problem (talk about dangling plot holes, Arrow! Inquiring viewers want to know!). He preferred that to being with Laurel.  And yeah, quite a lot of that had to do with Oliver finally, slowly, becoming a hero with responsibilities,

7. Not to mention that Oliver was the first of the five to realize that something was wrong and to try to investigate it - yes, Sara had a quick moment there, but she brushed it off until she happened to run into a murderous Deathstroke later. Oliver was the initial one running around Star City trying to figure out what was going on. Not Sara, who was also reunited with her sister and was happier in this episode than we've ever seen her. Not Thea, who wanted to stay. Not Ray - strongly suggesting that Ray was happier/more content with fake Felicity than Oliver was with fake Laurel.

8. And finally, there was the not too subtle meta message of the episode - admittedly kinda muffled by the "whee! let's party!" feel of the B plot, which was that the longer the gang stayed in the fake alien universe, the greater the chances were that the aliens would conquer the planet. That is, it was yet another iteration of the theme that Arrow has been pounding into our heads since about episode 5 of the first season. That is, Oliver isn't just terrible for Laurel (although he really, really is - both pre-island Laurel and post-island Laurel deserved someone better) but that Laurel is bad for Oliver as a superhero.  Whenever Oliver chooses Laurel, things go bad and people get hurt.

And that's exactly what happened here. Oliver knew something was wrong. But after getting tossed out of the Arrow Cave, he went to sleep, and then went to talk to Laurel again - giving the aliens more time to download info from Ray and the others, putting people in danger.  

There's a reason for the message, of course - and not just the decision to switch love interests.  It's not that Oliver didn't care for Laurel, or love her - he did. That's in canon. But Laurel is tied to pre-island Oliver, the jerk who made a lot of poor decisions, and to first season serial killer Oliver, and a number of other things that Oliver needs to get away from. Thus the not exactly subtle messages from the show that choosing Laurel is such a bad decision, not just for Oliver, but everyone around him - because she's part of the life Oliver needs to leave behind in order to be a superhero.

[statsgirl]

Thanks for making me feel better, quarks.  All the "Oliver Loves Laurel" was getting to me.  It's interesting that Oliver not only ditched the rehearsal party but stayed away all night, and then begged Laurel to marry him right away.  I wonder what he was thinking.

I know the aliens were more interested in Ray's science knowledge or Diggle's military info, but they really really did need Thea's fashion tips. 

[LeighAn]

I think Olivers "I love you" speech was a response to the last moment he had with the real Laurel. Laurel had told him he was the love of her life and he had pretty much ignored it. But now he had the chance to give the reply he should have which was he loved her but he's not the guy for her or who she is looking for or the guy she deserves, which most fans of Arrow have felt for a long time anyway. Basically I love you I always will but I'm not in love with you and I hope you find someone who can love you as much as you loved me. 

I think that's one of Olivers regrets that he never loved or wanted as much from the relationship that Laurel loved him and that he took that for granted. A part of him wishes he felt the same way because that relationship was based on simpler times but he's experienced real deep complicated love with Felicity.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I think Olivers "I love you" speech was a response to the last moment he had with the real Laurel. Laurel had told him he was the love of her life and he had pretty much ignored it. But now he had the chance to give the reply he should have which was he loved her but he's not the guy for her or who she is looking for or the guy she deserves, which most fans of Arrow have felt for a long time anyway. Basically I love you I always will but I'm not in love with you and I hope you find someone who can love you as much as you loved me. 

I think that's one of Olivers regrets that he never loved or wanted as much from the relationship that Laurel loved him and that he took that for granted. A part of him wishes he felt the same way because that relationship was based on simpler times but he's experienced real deep complicated love with Felicity.

I agree. Also Oliver has told her repeatedly that he doesn't deserve her and I think part of the reason is that he can't love her like she wanted him to, like she loved him. He thinks he is a terrible guy in general but when he had the fake wedding with Felicity he told her he probably didn't deserve her but wanted a chance anyway because she is his always. All the times he had a chance to be in a committed relationship with Laurel he always ended up leaving her and I think it was because he didn't feel for her what he knew he was supposed to.

[tv echo]

This is really relevant to nothing and I wasn't sure where to post this - but since they're two Oliver love interests...

I came across this pic of Jacqueline MacInnes Wood, who played Sara Lance in the pilot:

(source)

Now who does she look like?  Oh, yeah, Carly Pope:

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, Willowtree said:

Thanks for the replies concerning OTA. I just have the feeling that this concept, regardless of where it originated, has mainly been embraced by the Olicity fandom.

Maybe, possibly, probably ... I imagine a lot of Olicity fans are also fans of Diggle, Oliver and Felicity separately and together. As with anything that that doesn't involve a scientific survey, it's difficult to say.

But while the actual term "Original Team Arrow" may have been coined by the actors, the concept itself began before the fans even latched on to it. After all, it was the writers who put those three together in the bunker, sharing a core mission to help others.

One of the things I remember from Season 2 is how respected TV critics such as Maureen Ryan (formerly of Variety), Alan Sepinwall and Ken Tucker were the early proponents of the "core trio," praising the show and almost always tying it to the chemistry of three actors. In fact, this review from Ryan, written way back in 2013, about the introduction of The Flash actually uses the words "core trio."

Quote

But Rickards, “Arrow’s” crucial secret weapon, also has great chemistry with star Stephen Amell and with David Ramsey, who plays John Diggle (Oliver’s bodyguard and the third member of the show’s core trio — both Diggle and Felicity know about Oliver’s crime-fighting alter ego).

Edited December 4, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva
clarification

[Willowtree]

Quote

Maybe, possibly, probably ... I imagine a lot of Olicity fans are also fans of Diggle, Oliver and Felicity separately and together. As with anything that that doesn't involve a scientific survey, it's difficult to say.

I'm just judging by my own experiences from different social media. The only fans who mention/praise/ask for OTA on the producers'/actors' twitter timelines are Olicity fans, which is very apparent from their avis and aliases. The same applies to Olicity-heavy fan spaces like tumblr. The small part of the tumblr fandom that isn't Olicity fans do not make OTA edits, or write metas about this particular constellation. The fans who ask Stephen Amell for OTA pics on twitter and Facebook are also exclusively Olicity fans.

On many large online discussion forums OTA is very seldom a subject of discussion, and it's hardly ever used to denote Oliver/Diggle/Felicity, probably because it's not considered altogether correct (although promoted by the writers and actors as show "canon"). There are even fans who consider Oliver/Diggle as the true original team, since they worked together as a team from episode three until episode fifteen, when Felicity officially joined. In general I'd say that Roy, Thea (and sometimes even Laurel) are considered just as important and interesting as team members as the "core" of O/F/D. 

I guess that there are many fans out there who don't regard Oliver, Felicity and Diggle as the hub around which the show evolves. But that's true of every fandom, isn't it? People will feel differently about different aspects, characters and storylines. My enjoyment of the show is not dependent of the amount of shared scenes (or common storylines) between Oliver, Felicity and Diggle, because I don't think their interaction is more special than Oliver's interaction with Thea, or with the other characters close to him. I liked seasons one and two as well, with the early Diggle/Oliver scenes, and I thought both Roy and Sara were great additions to the team. Seasons three and four were pretty disappointing IMHO, but not because Laurel and Thea joined the team. As for the current season it's not really any worse than season four, despite the arrival of the newbies, and some things have improved, like the fight sequences and the plotting, at least in my eyes.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Willowtree

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Willowtree said:

I'm just judging by my own experiences from different social media. The only fans who mention/praise/ask for OTA on the producers'/actors' twitter timelines are Olicity fans,

Why does it even matter who likes OTA and who doesn't? I don't understand what point you're trying to make, aside from pitting one group against another.

[statsgirl]

20 minutes ago, Willowtree said:

There are even fans who consider Oliver/Diggle as the true original team, since they worked together as a team from episode three until episode fifteen, when Felicity officially joined.

If we're getting technical, Felicity was  working with Oliver in episode 3 helping with Deadshot's lap top at a time when Diggle wasn't working with him except as Oliver Queen's bodyguard. In that sense, she was working with The Hood before Diggle was.

Diggle officially joined in episode 5 when he agreed to fake being the Hood, and Felicity in episode 15.  It takes another 19 episodes for Roy to join in 2x11 and then Sara in 2x13.

[HighHopes]

Ex-Olicity shipper here who still wants OTA scenes. I also think that they shouldn't have killed Laurel. 

The issue is that they spent the first two or so  seasons telling the audience that Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver were a team. And that their friendship was important and mattered to each character. And now they barely interact with each other. 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

If we're getting technical, Felicity was  working with Oliver in episode 3 helping with Deadshot's lap top at a time when Diggle wasn't working with him except as Oliver Queen's bodyguard. In that sense, she was working with The Hood before Diggle was.

Diggle officially joined in episode 5 when he agreed to fake being the Hood, and Felicity in episode 15.  It takes another 19 episodes for Roy to join in 2x11 and then Sara in 2x13.

And in 1x14 Diggle tells Felicity that he and Oliver considered her an unofficial member of the group IIRC. 

Yes Olicity fans might talk about OTA a lot but when they show has made multiple references to Oliver Felicity and Diggle being the core original team just don't get how that's hard to dispute. 

I do get people rejecting OTA as a concept because they don't like them or certain elements of OTA (Felicity). But it's never been a part of the show that the writers or cast have been ambiguous about.

Even in the 100 they had Diggle and Felicity working together in the Arrow Bunker to honor the fact that Diggle and Felicity have always been Oliver partners. Plus it was seeing the two of them that broke Oliver from his Alien Brain washing because they are both fundamentally important to his journey.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Willowtree said:

On many large online discussion forums OTA is very seldom a subject of discussion, and it's hardly ever used to denote Oliver/Diggle/Felicity, probably because it's not considered altogether correct (although promoted by the writers and actors as show "canon").

It's canon. It was said in the show by a character. A viewer might not LIKE it but that doesn't make it not canon or factual.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Eh. Original Team Arrow is canon. Oliver, Felicity and Diggle ALL appeared in the crossovers, proving (to me, at least) that they are considered draws and the core of Arrow. And most importantly, all three of my faves are alive and kicking!

So let me do some cleansing using some OTA sage ;)

Oh, look! So many shots of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity together. It's almost like they are framed by the show as a team :D And even did a promo promoting them as such

[Mellowyellow]

I cannot recall Felicity's hair being so long in that second last pic you attached!!!

Weren't they the only 3 in the Crossover poster for this year? 

[insomniadreams88]

OTA is canon. There is no arguing otherwise. And thanks for those GIFs! Love seeing those three together. I think the writers need to see them to remind them. 

I think a problem comes in with CW's promotion. Didn't the official Twitter call this season's team Team Arrow 2.0 when that's not actually the case?

[Morrigan2575]

My perfect world OTA +Roy with Sara/BC flying in from saving women around the world for sweeps episodes.

I like Thea and I'm OK with her as Speedy but, I prefer Roy. 

[statsgirl]

18 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm just confused that if it happens in show, it's canon if you agree but it's fan service if you don't. I know #factsdontmatter anymore, but what??

The OED word of the year is "Post-Truth "(although I still prefer truthiness). 

Edited December 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[LeighAn]

Shallowly I love the gif of Felicity with shirtless Oliver and muscle Diggle. I think that's also probably one of the most "come look at me" outfits they've put Felicity in as well other then the black dress in The Flash.

[lemotomato]

34 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I cannot recall Felicity's hair being so long in that second last pic you attached!!!

Weren't they the only 3 in the Crossover poster for this year? 

Indeed they were!

Also, official poster from season 2 with Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle front and center:

A CBS publicity photo that's circa season 2:

And a poster as recent as season 4:

Edited December 5, 2016 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

Oliver was younger and a lot cuter back in the day! Felicity hasn't aged much (I always think EBR looks especially young in her real life pics) but Oliver isn't as good looking!

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oliver was younger and a lot cuter back in the day! Felicity hasn't aged much (I always think EBR looks especially young in her real life pics) but Oliver isn't as good looking!

It's probably because Emily was like 19 I think in season 1 compared to Stephen who I think was like 28-29. Age unfortunately shows more in your 30s then your early twenties.

[Morrigan2575]

IIRC this was the official S2 poster.

[statsgirl]

If the OTA scenes and references were fanservice, can I put in my request to be serviced again?

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

If the OTA scenes and references were fanservice, can I put in my request to be serviced again?

And while your at it add a request to fan service us with Olicity getting back together with plenty of 3x20 type sex.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Shallowly I love the gif of Felicity with shirtless Oliver and muscle Diggle. I think that's also probably one of the most "come look at me" outfits they've put Felicity in as well other then the black dress in The Flash.

I love that dress. There's also another one that's kinda similar in style but gingham or light blue, I think, from the second season? Not exactly bunker outfits but Felicity looks cute in them. That particular GIF is actually from the gag reel, not the episode. Emily forgot her line and you can see Stephen and David start laughing :)

[wonderwall]

Who directed this episode?

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Because I love these shots

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Who directed this episode?

Because I love these shots

If that is "Broken Dolls," then it was directed by Glen Winter, which helps explain the beautiful framing.

I love how they enter the frame here:

[wonderwall]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

If that is "Broken Dolls," then it was directed by Glen Winter, which helps explain the beautiful framing.

I love how they enter the frame here:

*sigh*

I MISS GLEN WINTER. 

He also gave us this beautiful shot

[kismet]

Another discussion about OTA... I guess all convos are cyclical since we have a convo about this every so many months.

There is only one OTA - Oliver, Diggle & Felicity. It is canon in the show. TPTB have always designated those 3 as the OTA.

There has been a Team Arrow that is OTA & friends. Team Arrow had included Ray, Thea, Sara, Laurel, Quentin (IMO) and the newbies. And some of those people were unofficially on the team in s1 & on without being in the ArrowCave. That designation can change every season as people come and go for reasons. Team Arrow is a far more inclusive team of people with a shared mission to save SC and fight for justice. OTA is an exclusive club that closed its membership ranks in early s1. It's a fact and canon, some people may not like it but that doesn't change the truth.

IMO, OTA has always been the best because I think the chemistry is seamless with the trio. I also think the writers write best when they are not trying to balance large groups of people. So writing for a trio was in their capabilities and wheelhouse. It appeals to the strengths of both the writers and the actors which is win-win.

IMO, s3 and onward has suffered from having too many characters and specifically too many characters on Team Arrow. There just isn't enough happening in SC to write that big of a team (nevermind, the writers suck at writing big groups). So far they have failed to come up with a big enough Big Bad or plot to warrant a huge team of masks - especially when the stunt designers cannot differentiate why you need that many people. Essentially they all just do the same thing in the field. What made OTA special is that they each had a unique role. I don't care if they want a roomful of masks, but the least they could do is give them each their own unique qualities. Roy & Sara were the last ones to be given unique abilities/roles. Which is why Roy & Sara worked well on Team Arrow. The other additions have had varied results but mostly it falls on the writers & stunt coordinators for failing to make a valid narrative purpose for making Team Arrow bigger.

[kismet]

16 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

*sigh*

I MISS GLEN WINTER. 

He also gave us this beautiful shot

Thx for posting this old shot... It was my old avatar back when my relationship with Arrow was less complicated. Sighs and wipes away a tear :(

I too miss Glen Winter :(

[statsgirl]

Glen Winter is now on Supergirl.  Their gain, while we get the merry-go-rounds.

8 minutes ago, kismet said:

IMO, s3 and onward has suffered from having too many characters and specifically too many characters on Team Arrow. There just isn't enough happening in SC to write that big of a team (nevermind, the writers suck at writing big groups). So far they have failed to come up with a big enough Big Bad or plot to warrant a huge team of masks - especially when the stunt designers cannot differentiate why you need that many people. Essentially they all just do the same thing in the field. What made OTA special is that they each had a unique role. I don't care if they want a roomful of masks, but the least they could do is give them each their own unique qualities. Roy & Sara were the last ones to be given unique abilities/roles. Which is why Roy & Sara worked well on Team Arrow. The other additions have had varied results but mostly it falls on the writers & stunt coordinators for failing to make a valid narrative purpose for making Team Arrow bigger.

Having unique roles and abilities makes it both easier and more interesting to write and direct for the Team.  (I swear, if I have to see that stupid V formation again, or all of them marching up to the bad guys in a straight line......)

Too many and too much of the same roles means the characters end up stumbling over each other and you get Oliver dumbed down so that Black Canary and Speedy are his equals or Curtis mansplainin' Felicity or taking over her jobs because she's suddenly unable to do them so he has something to do.

[ladylaw99]

Seeing these old gif's just makes me miss OTA even more than I already do. It reminds me of a time when the show was good and I couldn't wait see it.  I also miss Roy and Sara alot. They worked well in the team.

[LeighAn]

47 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

Seeing these old gif's just makes me miss OTA even more than I already do. It reminds me of a time when the show was good and I couldn't wait see it.  I also miss Roy and Sara alot. They worked well in the team.

I miss scenes like in 1x15 where they went to Big Belly burger and Felicity would tease Oliver and Diggle. Honestly if we got OTA scenes this season like season 1-2 I wouldn't care if the writers had Olicity on hold like they have but I feel like this season they barely interact without the newbies butting in. 

[looptab]

I loved that scene at the end of the crossover when they celebrated all together, and then Oliver and Barry going out for a beer. They never do this normal stuff on Arrow.

[LeighAn]

Well we did get that scene with OTA where they went out for drinks in 4x03 and then most recently we had Olicity go to a concert together with the newbies but yeah the down time off duty scenes are few and far between. 

[ladylaw99]

I completely forgot about that scene in 4x03.

If they want to introduce new characters that is fine but for me I wish they would spend some much needed time on OTA.  The way they introduce Roy was good.  The way they introduce the newbies was not great.  I knew Roy's history and why he wanted to do this with Oliver.  He respected Oliver and looked at him for guidance.  Did he agreed with him all the time, no but, there was respect.  The newbies I know barely anything about them.  Some of them I am not sure why they are doing this.  I have made no attempts in hiding that I like Rory.  I think he blends well except for the magic rags.  His personality just meshes well with OTA.  I use to like Curtis but he just got annoying and Wild Dog - I have said enough about him in previous posts and I always forget about Evenlyn.

I just want more scenes like 4x03 or 1x15 to 2x09.  Those were the days(:=

[SmallScreenDiva]

Here's my problem(s) with the newbies, there were too many of them too quickly. And they were introduced during a time none of my favorite elements of the show (Olicity and OTA) were present so my head is already equating them to the show sucking for me. And because I've always hated how the insta-masks seem to sideline Diggle & Felicity (from Roy and Sara to the current crop), I immediately resent them (unless they are super nice like Rory and I have reserved affection for him because of "Blindspot"). Which seems to be counter to what TPTB wants. TPTB wants to use my love for Arrow to introduce all these other characters and maybe follow them to other projects and buy their merchandise. NOPE! If anything, I'm cursing Wild Dung and pettily and childishly hoping any project of his sucks and flames out. That's how pissed I am. I want Curtis gone, and this even though I actually like Echo. And I even want Rory out to because his magic rags DO NOT belong on the "grounded" show that's supposed to be Arrow. I'm that crotchety old man who's yelling "Get off my lawn" to all these damn boobs :P

[ladylaw99]

6 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Here's my problem(s) with the newbies, there were too many of them too quickly. And they were introduced during a time none of my favorite elements of the show (Olicity and OTA) were present so my head is already equating them to the show sucking for me. And because I've always hated how the insta-masks seem to sideline Diggle & Felicity (from Roy and Sara to the current crop), I immediately resent them (unless they are super nice like Rory and I have reserved affection for him because of "Blindspot"). Which seems to be counter to what TPTB wants. TPTB wants to use my love for Arrow to introduce all these other characters and maybe follow them to other projects and buy their merchandise. NOPE! If anything, I'm cursing Wild Dung and pettily and childishly hoping any project of his sucks and flames out. That's how pissed I am. I want Curtis gone, and this even though I actually like Echo. And I even want Rory out to because his magic rags DO NOT belong on the "grounded" show that's supposed to be Arrow. I'm that crotchety old man who's yelling "Get off my lawn" to all these damn boobs :P

I understand what you are saying.  I have my moments when I am watching the episode.  

For me the problems started with season three.   Insta-masks and spin offs, which I think hurt the show.  It still burns my biscuits that Arrow had to spin off all these shows.

[tv echo]

IIRC, the first time the term "Team Arrow" was used on the show was in Episode 212, when Oliver took Roy to the Arrowcave and introduced him to Diggle and Felicity (when Roy joined the existing team)...

Roy: “Okay. Alright. How many people know what - who you are?” 
Oliver: “Too many. But these are the only two that matter. John Diggle and Felicity Smoak.”
Roy: “Does this group have a name? Like ‘Team Arrow’, or something?” 
Oliver: “We don't call ourselves that.” 
Felicity: “I do. Occasionally.” 
Oliver: “Stop.”
Diggle: “Whatever. (Shakes Roy’s hand) Welcome aboard.” 

Edited December 5, 2016 by tv echo