Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah they really dropped the ball with Sara and Dinah. They dropped the ball with Dinah period, actually. For whatever reason, they have never used that character like she should have been used.

 

Was it last summer when I posted on the Bitterness thread about how "Arrow" failed Alex Kingston? I think the original plan for the show featured a lot more of Dinah, that the original plan featured a whole lot more of the Lances. But when the show began shifting away from a Queen-Lance love story, it no longer felt the need to explore the Lance family as deeply.

[Carrie Ann]

I think like a lot of other storylines this season, the timing was off with Oliver choosing to be Arrow all the time.  Just as I think it would have worked better if Felicity and Oliver's new flirty dynamic had longer to breath and the same with Laurel and Sara's new (I guess) super sisterly bond.  I think Oliver should have moved a bit slower to the realization that he needed to only be the Arrow because as the way it played out, Oliver's the closest he's been in 7 years to being happy and finding more out of life and with the snap of a finger (or the blowing up of an Italian restaurant) he turns on a dime.

 

I agree with your whole post, and I think your suggestions are great. I said this during the winter hiatus I think, but I basically think Oliver's emotional arc of "The Calm" should have stretched out over the first nine episodes. Flirting with Felicity and circling closer to the idea that he could really try to be with her, and in the meantime, Ray is also making some moves, and maybe Oliver sees that kiss in 307, and it spurs him to action, and 309 begins with O/F on a date. And then the LOA swoop in to the restaurant instead of the Vertigo bomb. And he has to go to NP, and his realization that he can only be the Arrow comes in 312 before he returns to Starling. So his quick deal with Malcolm makes more sense, because he's in this rather cold mentality, and it's a double-blow to Felicity, making that emotional beat more effective. 

 

Like you said, there was so much waffling around the "Identity" theme that I could never predict where exactly Oliver's head/heart was at any given moment. And as much as I liked the scene in the finale where he told Felicity about his dream, the thing where she told him that his heart was different now because as much as he tried not to, he'd let himself feel something? That just didn't ring true to me. Let himself want something? Yes. But the whole season, he really never tried not to feel anything, aside maybe from "Sara." Otherwise, he was a love machine all season long. With Thea, with Roy, with Dig, even with Felicity when he couldn't stop himself. Just hugging and loving and telling people how much they meant to him, all the time.

[KirkB]

Season three, when you step back and look at it, had some really interesting ideas but we waded into the darkness too soon and then just stood there treading water without really furthering the story.  The stupid prophecy took way too much time to set up.   Too much time was wasted between Sara's death and the team finding out the truth.  Ray was isolated too long (he's a smart guy, couldn't they have used him long before he got the suit running?)  And by the end of the season the show runners complained they ran out of time to do the Al Sa Him story justice.  Instead of building to their story naturally, they served it up cold and only then tried to sell the emotions by making Felicity cry all the time.  They made their jobs harder than it had to be.

 

 

I completely agree with this. The individual elements were there for some interesting stories, but they did it in an odd order. The prophecy thing came out of nowhere and was kind of a half ass explanation for why Oliver was doing what he was doing late in the season. Sara dying in the beginning left a lot of time with them treading water about the murder mystery and way, way too much time of Laurel lying to and manipulating her father. Ray was pretty much on a separate show for three fourths of the season and took up a lot more screen time than he probably should have. Then they dumped all the relevant LoA stuff into the second half. They ran out of time to do the Oliver as Ra's stuff justice because they waited too long to get it started. 

 

They were trying to do too many things at once, playing with all their shiny new toys (Laurel as Canary, Atom) as people like to say instead of crafting a good narrative and it came back to bite them. 

[kismet]

I think like a lot of other storylines this season, the timing was off with Oliver choosing to be Arrow all the time.  Just as I think it would have worked better if Felicity and Oliver's new flirty dynamic had longer to breath and the same with Laurel and Sara's new (I guess) super sisterly bond. 

Agree with most of this post. They did have some decent ideas. But their spacing & their timing was all off. I think they definitely should have had O/F relationship at least last 2 eps. The date could still have been blown up. LL & SL definitely needed at least a full episode of bonding. Maybe have Sara's death come a lil later, perhaps even after the 1st crossover, it could be how they returned to town. They could have gotten a message while in CC. Cut right to Malcolm being responsible, they could have still kept the Thea part a secret for an episode. There was no need for murder mystery. Have Ray become more integrated into the group earlier, perhaps as part of SL's death investigation. Have Ray & Felicity date sooner before Oliver even goes off on his first LoA mission. Then have his disappearance be part of her emotional turmoil as she is dating 1 guy but seriously missing the other. Her emotional performance still would have been as deep even if she was dating RP, but it would have made it more apparent that perhaps she is hiding some feelings regarding OQ from herself.

 

I really think killing OQ was a really good way to end the winter premiere. If the prophecy was going to be that important than mention it sooner. But I think they should have left him dead longer & maybe have his prophecy revealed to him them to begin the likely recruitment as heir. Maseo could have even told him about the prophecy sooner.

 

There are many ways we all could have fixed this season. I think the most important lesson the writers can take from this season is that the relationships are as important as the plot. And they need to think about the characters when they are planning out the plots & arcs. The pretzeling of characters at the compromise of their relationships just did not work this season. Logistically it can make sense to go from A to B in a certain way, but does it make sense for the character to make that same path, that is a question they need to ask themselves. Also, I think the pacing & timing of the season need to be worked out. They seem to dwell & marinate on some stories that need to be sped up and then zoom through some of the bigger arcs that need more time.

[Morena]

The only way I can see Laurel & Oliver ever being together romantically is in an alternative universe either via dreams/drugs/time travel. But even that would only be a temporary relationship for the episode.  And it honestly, has nothing to do with Oliver & Felicity. There is just too much emotional damage & baggage in Laurel/Oliver pairing. Even if the show goes on for 10+ years, I will have a hard time believing that Laurel/Oliver would ever want to be with each other. Fight each other, yes. Fight crime together, yes. Be with each other, no.

in fact, what I wonder is why Laurel would like to be Oliver's friend? after everything that happened between them. Honestly, I can not understand why she still want to be a close friend. the only answer is because comics

Edited May 19, 2015 by Morena

[BkWurm1]

And as much as I liked the scene in the finale where he told Felicity about his dream, the thing where she told him that his heart was different now because as much as he tried not to, he'd let himself feel something? That just didn't ring true to me. Let himself want something? Yes. But the whole season, he really never tried not to feel anything, aside maybe from "Sara." Otherwise, he was a love machine all season long. With Thea, with Roy, with Dig, even with Felicity when he couldn't stop himself. Just hugging and loving and telling people how much they meant to him, all the time.

 

I attributed what she said specifically to their night together.  That he let his feelings finally move to action. He couldn't stop himself from feeling but feelings without actions don't mean much. He stopped trying to stop feeling that night and opened up his heart and let her in rather than loving her from a distance.

 

He then  tried to tuff everything down and fix the problem on his own, even once again planning on sacrificing his life.  Still, letting himself feel and do what comes naturally with feeling that one night, that was IMO the spark that let him look at living as more than just surviving.  That's what I decided is what Felicity meant by letting himself feel something.  Not a perfect explanation, but yeah, I couldn't accept it at face value either. 

[Angel12d]

I'd just like to point out that I hate all of you because you're writing the s3 that we deserved and now I'm sad. 

[tv echo]

We've discussed how the standard romantic beats in the main relationship were originally intended for O & L, but have been switched to O & F.  I came across this old article that was written in May 2013, that underscores how the original love story was supposed to proceed back in season 1 (see especially the bolded part)...

However, one need not to have known anything about the comic books to have seen what the show was doing with Oliver and Laurel.  This is pretty standard CW – heck, TV in general – romantic brooding.  They want to be together, but until the right part of the season comes (either during sweeps or at the very end) the show will keep putting barriers between them....

 

Plus, there’s tradition.  Oliver’s a crime fighting vigilante.  By the rules of superhero storytelling that means there must be a girl he loves so much he pushes her away to protect her.  Sorry, Laurel.  However, entering the home stretch of the season the show finally put Oliver and Laurel together, reintroducing the two as a potential romantic couple in “Home Invasion” (EP. 20) before going there in the season’s penultimate episode.  Of course, this is all likely a prelude to ripping them apart once Oliver realizes he can never leave his life as the vigilante behind him.

THE BURDEN OF CANON: CAN WE TALK ABOUT ARROW’S OLIVER, LAUREL & FELICITY PROBLEM?
Posted on May 15, 2013  by Kelly Konda
http://weminoredinfilm.com/2013/05/15/the-burden-of-canon-can-we-talk-about-arrows-laurel-oliver-problem/

Edited May 25, 2015 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

It funny how they took all the standard beats they were intending to do with Laurel and transferred them to Felicity instead.

 

I think that it's completely accidental on the parts of the writers, because the writing has, in every respect, been so breathtakingly awful this season that I find it hard to believe that anyone thought this through carefully, but they might have hit upon a very real truth which the Oliver/Felicity sweetness of earlier seasons might have somewhat obscured, and that is that Oliver, with all the damage he has sustained, is going to find a full-scale romantic relationship incredibly difficult to navigate successfully (and that's not even taking into account the fact that the pre-island Oliver was equally incapable, because that's not as relevant at this point).  We, as an audience, would undoubtedly have preferred the relationship to have the same easiness to it as their friendship had, because that's fun to watch, but changing the intimacy of a relationship vastly changes the stakes.  It's a change that tends to bring out the best and the worst in people, and to shine a light on problems that weren't as noticeable before.  So the moment Oliver's relationship with Felicity went from the relative safety of friendship to the intensity of a romance, he couldn't cope.  It was extremely tiresome to watch, and was undoubtedly written simply as a standard TV ship-stall, but there is an element of reality about it (foreign as such a concept is on this show) that I reluctantly recognise.

 

I think that because Felicity is in love with him, she's having to grapple with a very complex response within herself as a result of his incapacity.  On the one hand she can look at his decision not to be with her as a choice, and a really, really dumb, nonsensical, hurtful one at that.  On the other hand, she can consider everything Oliver has experienced up to this point and realise that he has some very real emotional limitations.  He's damaged, possibly even broken, and the last few years have done nothing to improve the situation.  Felicity, I think, understands that enough for it to temper her own hurt and frustration to a degree.  She fell in love and understandably wanted the fairy-tale 'happily ever after', but came face to face with the realities of PTSD instead.  She's trying to figure out a way to cope with this broken man she loves without letting his brokenness consume them both, and she's not really sure how to go about it, especially when he holds her at arm's length and keeps making increasingly terrible and dangerous decisions.  They're both in a predicament, because they want each other, even need each other, but have some very real emotional obstacles they have to work around to be together.

 

The first obstacle is just for Oliver to be able to commit to a relationship with Felicity without freaking out and bailing.  But even once he's done that, I think he's going to find it very scary being in a proper relationship with someone he's really in love with and with whom he wants to make it work in the long term.  Oliver's spent the last 8 years unable to plan for the future, just trying to survive in the present.  He hasn't allowed himself to think of a future for himself because, as he said after Sara died, he doesn't think he has a future.  Being with Felicity is an act of optimism.  It says that he can have happiness, he can plan a future, he wants to have a life, rather than just an existence.  He's choosing sunlight over the basement at night.  That's a huge thing, a fundamental shift in his whole mindset, and might not be as easy or simple as it sounds.  Oliver has a massive, realistic fear of the people he loves dying (usually in a horrible, violent way in front of him).  It's going to be really difficult for him to function in a romantic relationship without that fear becoming problematic for both of them.  He's also going to need to learn to do regular people stuff - watch TV, read books, hang out and talk nonsense, even (gasp!) get a job - and to not take responsibility for lots of things that aren't his concern in an attempt to assuage his guilt over the things he's done.  In other words, he going to have to learn to let go and chill.  Felicity's going to need to be really patient with him, I think.  I hope she suggests (strongly) that he gets some therapy.  Or, at the very least, talks to her about the things that have happened to him.

 

However, I think this is putting more thought into the matter than it deserves.  These writers seem largely uninterested in their characters, treating them as incidental to the plot.  And given that the plot, if it can even be called that, is nonsensical and annoying, this has proven to be an extremely poor decision.  At this stage, I think this show is running solely on the charms of its actors, because it has little else to recommend it.

Just putting this out there again because it's such a good idea.

 

But given the writing on this s how, I think I'd trust a good fanfic writer to handle it before the EPs.  Although I wouldn't mind seeing him try to go through the trust/broken soul thing with Diggle given that their relationship is shaky right now.  Bromances can be repaired more easily than romances on TV.

[Velocity23]

This makes me miss Moira so much!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jay741982]

This makes me miss Moira so much!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well "they" say Men fall for Women who have traits that their mother does and Felicity had shown similarities to Moria standing up to Malcolm AND Ra's which you know Moira would've done

[Password]

That gifset just makes me bitter about the swerve season 2 did in the second half. I thought Felicity and Moira would interact more but we were deprived.

[Chaser]

For some reason, I never thought that Moira and Felicity would get along all that well right away There would be mutual respect, and a touch of fear on Felicity's side, but that they would clash a bit. Part of that would be on Oliver because she would see Felicity's 'promotion' as a like-father-like-son action and possibly resent Felicity. It all could have been amazing and interesting. 

[kismet]

I think MQ & FS would have initially had some tension, but I think it might have worked itself out. Moira was very protective (I think its where OQ gets some of protective traits), she doesn't always make the right decisions in how to protect her family but the motivations & feelings behind her reasoning is generally based upon love & relatively good intentions. With the whole Thea-Daddy situation, I'm assuming that she saw FS as threat. I'm not sure she understood FS motives behind wanting to reveal or not withhold secrets from OQ. She might have seen FS as a gold-digger or someone looking to leverage her family for her advantage. So perhaps once she realized the true role that FS played in OQs life she would have been more accepting of her.

 

I can only imagine between the overall benign pre-Island Ollie mistakes that she had to cover-up and the nefarious & deadly actions of herself/her husband, she has been well conditioned to see most people as threats, esp when they are discovering/revealing long kept secrets. MQ didn't seem like a person that trusted very easily. When people don't trust easy, it hard to understand people like FS because you're constantly waiting for them to show their true colors. It's rare that people are as honest and willing to believe as FS, people like Moira I think have trouble believing that people like that exist. .

 

I am truly missing Moira in s3... Her maternal influence was missing from the show. I also loved that she played a very grey character. Whereas QL & MM pretty much play black & white characters. QL is generally a good man, so even when his actions are misguided/quasi bad like they are in 319 he still really is a good guy. Meanwhile, MM is generally a bad guy, who makes some decisions/choices that can be perceived as good but likely have an ulterior purpose. He may paly a grey character at times, but in the end we know his allegiances are generally to himself and likely the eviler side. MQ on the other hand was a good person who willingly made some bad/evil choices. Her motivations were never truly explained. We got the lying to protect her children part. But how much of the pre-undertaking did she know about? How much was she involved before the Gambit sank? How exactly did she contact Ra's? I'm not quite sure the writers were really done with her story. They could have milked out many more story arcs that utilized her matriarchal love for her children balanced against the dark things she admitted to doing in s1. I liked that they redeemed her character, but I think there could have been more to tell - especially in later seasons.

 

Part of me wishes that they could have just sent her to prison instead of killing her. Because even now, I don't understand how her death helped to motivate the story or Oliver's hero arc. I mean I get the basic mother dies tragically & hero feels it is his fault. But Shado's death served a similar function. If it was only to cause pain & tragedy, mission accomplished. But in the end it is their loss, as her talent & relationships on the show were an asset. They could have had many different options on the table for what to do with her character. It would have been kinda amazing to what her acclimate back after her family was ripped away from her. It might have been a little like Cookie in Empire. Everything still could have gone down basically the same way in s3. But it would have been nice to have some other link to OQ's past both as a person & plot device. Instead we have just another reason OQ feels guilty for being alive & surviving.

[ruby24]

I actually liked Moira- she was an interesting character because of the way she wasn't totally good or bad, but definitely loved her kids. And the actress who played her was very good too, she added an interesting dynamic to the show. I liked her relationship with Oliver.

 

It's too bad they had to kill her off like that (even thought the scene where that happened was definitely tragic and compelling).

[BkWurm1]

Taken from over in the News Section

 

Which is pretty much the problem Laurel faced in season 2 where she was saddled with depression and drug addiction while her cooler, younger sister walked around kicking ass in a mask. Sara was everyone's favorite then. And Felicity still got a lot of love. But no one here was bothered by Laurel getting hate because she was not in a mask.

What happened is that after hitting rock bottom, Laurel had only one way to go. Up. Felicity on the other hand, as the fun, quirky nerd, was everyone's favorite. And when she got saddled with all that melodrama, it was her turn to suck.

 

I've seen previous comparisons between Laurel's season two storyline where she was saddled with a lot of emotional drama and Felicity's run in season 3 and I think there are some stark differences in two areas.  Why they were emotional and why they received backlash for being emotional. 

 

To start with, the reason behind the emotional seasons.  No one would say that Laurel wasn't entitled to be upset over Tommy's death but what I do hold her accountable for and for me is what translated to dislike, was how she channeled her feelings over Tommy's death and used it as an excuse to target and hurt first the Arrow and then when she was forced to realize her role in Tommy's death and that she'd been using the Arrow as a scapegoat, she still blamed those around her for her actions.   

 

Laurel in season two cried and whinged and complained and blamed and lost herself (so we were eventually told not shown) in the bottle and in pills and her turn around was when she realized that she was the cause of her problems (though in admitting that she still found a way to blame it on the Gambit going down 6 years ago).  I  didn't dislike Laurel because she was emotional, I disliked her because of WHY she was emotional (she wanted to blame everyone else) and how she channeled her emotions, which came down to her coping with her emotional turmoil by hurting those around her. 

 

I found Laurel sympathetic when she wasn't blaming others.  I found her tears when she was crying in the Police station sympathetic because it was just about grief (she lost a few points since it was about grief in part that she got caught) but when she was near tears and furiously throwing wine glasses at her sister for being alive, yeah, no sympathy.  Still no sympathy from me during that awful dinner with Oliver and Sara because Laurel took what was a real emotional blow and turned around and targeted her father and tried to hurt him, an innocent party.  In Laurel's emotional turmoil she was repeatedly and unjustifiably cruel and unkind.  Yes that was part of her addiction story but the wine wasn't making her that way, the wine was letting her act on her real feelings. 

 

I contrast that with Felicity in season 3.  Felicity also coped with grief and anger this season.  Oliver opened the door on their relationship and then slammed it shut, Sara died and on the heels of that Oliver confessed to what basically amounted as suicidal tendencies, and while she's also coping with a near complete rejection from the man she loves who thinks he's just waiting around to die, he's toying with her emotions and dangling maybe's one day (You know how I feel about her) and reaffirming his I can not be with you stance.  Then before he goes missing he flat out no hedging confesses his love only to apparently die. 

 

That covers from episodes 1-12, nearly half the season is Felicity coping with constant and on going grief.  And really, not a lot of complaints were leveled at Felicity for being emotional or crying.  Some quibbled about her briefly leaving the team but it was very briefly and everyone else involved also had their moments of thinking they should walk away (which she actually rallied them all against). 

 

During this time she didn't turn her back on her friends or obligations. (Even when she briefly quit it was about protecting Diggle and Roy.)   She didn't self destruct or find solace in mind altering substances or lash out at others.  She did I think bury herself in new responsibilities and challenges at Palmer Tech and that is just as much an avoidance as what Laurel did but it didn't come with the same consequences nor did she use it as an excuse to hurt others. 

 

Then Oliver came back from the dead and the emotion that Felicity was now expressing was anger and suddenly yes, there was backlash.  Some saw her stand as heroic and principled while others saw it as cruel.  She was truly angry and disappointed and disillusioned by Oliver's behavior and so for about four episodes she sniped and argued with Oliver.  (Three in a row, then a  much needed break in The Offer before again some painful sniping in 3.17) She was frequently angry for good reasons but she was no longer softening her words around Oliver and it was not fun.  What it was, depending on your viewpoint of why she was mad, was justifiable. 

 

I tend to compare this time to the mixed reaction people had to Laurel's fight with Oliver in the hallway.  MANY were 100% team Laurel while she lost me the moment she lashed out at her father.  I felt that Oliver thinking Malcolm could train him to defeat Ra's was the jackass move to top all jackass moves and when Thea found out the whole truth, she drew a firm hell no in the sand as well.  Even Oliver woke up to his foolishness when he and Diggle were in Nanda Parbat and had the whole, hey come be the new Ra's and by the way destroy your city, I don't think Oliver would have worked with Malcolm again.  So for me, Felicity's anger did nothing to lower her in my eyes but I know it did in a lot of people's.

 

This is when Felicity starting getting backlash and I think it had less to do with her being emotional than her being against Oliver. She no longer kept to her place.  She overstepped her boundaries as quippy nerd girl.  Even when the direct conflict ended between them, for the rest of the season episodes 18-23, a segment of viewers allowed for no consideration why Felicity was emotional be it justified or not, it was all stuck with one label - emotional.  It was ok that she was sad in the first half of the season since she just sucked it up and took it for the most part, but once she started showing her temper, then she was just an hysterical to be ignored woman.

 

On top of that underlying feeling I felt like I was seeing, I will allow for pure unadulterated overload of a relentlessly dark and emotionally draining season.  I'm not saying it wasn't tough to take, but since I feel like Felicity had good reason each and every time to be emotional even when that emotion translated into sheer anger and frustration over Oliver's actions and choices, I never felt any dislike toward Felicity. 

 

I don't feel like her actions deserved negative judgment where as I do feel that Laurel earned her negative judgment based on her actions.  It's entirely possible a certain segment of viewers also hated Laurel like they started hating Felicity when she showed her anger toward Oliver but IMO the reason for their behavior makes all the difference.  By the end, Laurel was lashing out at everyone around her.  When Felicity was angry with Oliver, she was still only angry at Oliver.

 

In the back half of season 3 Felicity faced just about as much grief and emotional turmoil as she had in the first half of the season. Ray, a man she cared about seemed to be facing either death or mental death in exchange for saving her life, Oliver and the whole team were being hunted by the SCPD, they had to say goodbye to Roy - not an actual death but a loss that couldn't be undone, she briefly gets a taste of love and happiness before being forced to give it up, then thinking that Oliver was as good as dead.  Toss in a few more perceived betrayals and ten minutes of thinking the man she loved and claimed to love her was killing her, (now would have been a perfect time not to be a woman he loved) and it's a miracle that Felicity made it out sane.  

 

The strength that we also so admired in Felicity in season one and two, it was still evident in Felicity in season three but by the end of the season her reserves were used up.  In every season Oliver has at least one moment where he needs the strength of others in order to go on but Felicity does not get that luxury.  She endures predominantly on her own the whole season.  If each new episode of grief and sadness and loss and betrayal wasn't enough to justify being emotional (though never in an erratic manner that hurt others) then the accumulated weight of it continually with no break or way to share her burden should have. 

 

This is why I don't think the negative feelings toward Laurel at the end of season 2 matches the negative feelings toward Felicity in season 3.     Season three was not "Felicity's turn to suck" as if expressing emotion is justification enough to hate a character.  In season two Laurel brought the drama on herself.  In season three Felicity coped with the constant grief and drama thrown at her.  It is IMO all the difference in the world. 

[statsgirl]

Brava!  BkWurm1.

 

I also think that for some viewers such as Green Arrow TV, Laurel gets measured by an easier yardstick because she's a mask&costume from the comics so she's already got superhero points.

[kismet]

 

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/119920597136/i-have-to-bring-this-up-because-its-been-a-repeat

Pulled this article/tumblr post from media thread, Sorry can't remember who initially posted it.

 

Anyway, after reading this, it helped confirm my beliefs that the show needs to either costume all of their Heroes or make multiple in-script references that people can be Heroes without needing a mask throughout the series. Prefer the latter. Although I am on board for identity concealment, that's just common sense. They mentioned it a little bit in the finale, with OQ line about heroes not just masks. But they need to make it a little stronger. People can be Heroes in many different ways. What makes a Hero is what they are willing to sacrifice, their motivations and their choices/actions. If they are not going to acknowledge this in show, then they need to find a way make everyone visually appear as a "mask". Or stop drawing such a hard line promotionally that masks are all that matters - I'm looking at you superhero fight club.

 

Anyone can throw on a mask and head to the streets, that does not necessarily make them hero. S1 showed OQ/Hood doing just that hitting the street and serving up justice. And yes some of his actions were heroic, but generally in the beginning he was just a vigilante. S2 & 3 have shown us what it takes to be a hero. And its not just OQs journey. But Diggle, Roy, Felicity and Sara have seemed to graduate from hero training camp into full Heroes (or already were like Diggle). Even Ray seems to be on his way with his sharing his nanobit technology and finding a way to put others' needs ahead of his own. That whole convo about "but Oliver" being FS as selfish irritates me to no end, because it wasn't FS choosing OQ, it was her finding a way with RPs help to save both the city and OQ. He did the tech, she used the suit. It was perfect solution to the situation. Its called teamwork, also a critical element to successful Heroes. 

 

Honestly, I think although Laurel got her mask this year, I'm not fully convinced she is a hero as BC yet. I don't fully understand her motivations or her sacrifices. Yes she was compelled to do this by tragedy & loss, but that does not mean she is fully willing to sacrifice or has the proper motivation. The only thing she truly sacrificed willingly in s3 was her relationship with her father by intentionally lying to him about Sara's death for months for pretty poor reasons (not very heroic). I believe she was more of a Hero in s1 when she used her brains & law degree to help people at CNRI. A lot of her cases and her devotion to her clients felt more heroic than what she's done in s3 since they handed her the mask. Hopefully, now that the getting the mask part is over with, they can give her a storyline that shows her being heroic. I do think she can be a hero if the writers find a way to tone done her selfish tendencies. She needs a cause or a mission. If simply defending SC deems her a hero, that is fine but acknowledge that there are other civil servants doing the same thing every night in uniforms, like her father.

 

I love that they gave Thea a mask, I'm glad they found her something kick-ass to do - esp after ripping away her agency at the hands of her father for plot. Her journey from brat in s1 to relevant member of Team Arrow is a great progression. Excited for her future, but she is officially still in hero training camp in my book.

[statsgirl]

Just putting it out there -- can them make Laurel a hero by having her do heroic things next season?  Or do they have to address what she's done selfishly in her relationships with Quentin and Sara, and her fighting because beating up people makes her feel better?

[wonderwall]

Just putting it out there -- can them make Laurel a hero by having her do heroic things next season?  Or do they have to address what she's done selfishly in her relationships with Quentin and Sara, and her fighting because beating up people makes her feel better?

 

I think Laurel can be a hero but before that they have to address a few things, and it's not regarding her relationships with Quentin and Sara. I think Laurel being a hero will require her to actually grow as a person. She kicks butt for selfish reasons. This is why I didn't think Oliver was a hero in season 1. Laurel needs to figure out WHY she wants to be a hero, and maybe Sara coming back to life will help her. It could change her from wanting to kick butt to make her feel better because of Sara's death, to wanting to kick butt because she's making a difference in the world and she's actually HELPING. I feel like putting on a mask requires people to become martyrs (a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle), and Laurel is nowhere near that. And they can't flip a switch and make her become one in an instant. It has to be an ongoing process.

 

Not only that, in order for Laurel to become a hero she needs to be helpful to Team Arrow. Mostly she's been a liability, but she's getting to the helpful stage. But I want it to be believable. I don't want her to get beat down by a street thug one week and hold her own against the LoA another week. That's just ridiculous and just undermines Laurel's arc. 

 

Laurel needs to understand what being a superhero/hero means. And I don't think she does. Not in the way Oliver knows. She has to understand the sacrifices she may have to make, she has to understand that kicking ass or having a mask does not make a hero. Laurel also needs to have a set of principles, a set of rules to go by and I don't know what they are...

 

Laurel still has a hell of a long way to go. And I can't see this all happening next season. 

 

That being said, I feel like Oliver took a hit regarding his hero status this year because of what he was willing to do to take down Ra's. I wasn't a fan of his decisions this season and so while I feel like he earned his hero status in season 2, I don't think he earned that hero status in season 3. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by wonderwall

[Genki]

Laurel Fails for me in 3 ways.

 

1. The constant disconnect between what we are told and what we are shown, to me she is a pretty selfish character everything is filtered through how it affects her, what it means to her. The supposed loss of Sara didn't ring true, to me, because in season 2, she was barely connecting with Sara. The being a mask to make herself feel better, etc.

 

2. The Acting, I found KC acting style to rely on breathing and other physical cues, but there is a disconnect in her eyes which means that I don't buy into her as Laurel.  When KC was playing a different, more abrasive character it works, but not for who we are being told Laurel is supposed to be. There are few scenes where I can buy into KC's Laurel, sometimes with Quentin and now a bit more with Cisco, Ray and Nyssa.

 

3. The mis-use of other characters to prop Laurel's.

Keeping Diggle out of the field, tearing down Sara's Struggle. Putting aside Teen Arrow's investigation story-line. Keeping Lance in the dark about Sara but not taking responsibility for her decisions, when he was gunning for Team Arrow because of it.

 

I would say Laurel hasn't improved but none of that was to do with being the BC and most of that was because she was with scene partners that she played better against. But they need to fix all 3 issues for me to accept Laurel.

[kismet]

Just putting it out there -- can them make Laurel a hero by having her do heroic things next season?  Or do they have to address what she's done selfishly in her relationships with Quentin and Sara, and her fighting because beating up people makes her feel better?

Taking it to the Laurel thread

[tv echo]

Again, Laura Hurley read my mind and wrote about why she thinks Oliver & Felicity work as a couple -- expressing exactly what I think as well (but more articulately)...

First, we got to see them fall in love. This might just be personal preference, but I find myself more attached to couples whose journeys we see from beginning to end. It allows us to get to know and like them as individuals before seeing them fused together into a unit. For example, Laurel and Oliver were Lauriver from the very conception of the show. Oliver and Felicity weren’t officially Olicity until the end of the third season. We saw who they were individually and could gauge whether or not they would fit based on established personalities. In media res does not always work well for romance.

 

Second, we see that they make each other better. Felicity made him smile and laugh and find another way to save the city that didn’t involve serial killing. She dug through all of the doom and gloom on the surface and found the man underneath who still had hope. For his part, Oliver made Felicity…more. When she was first brought into the Arrow Cave, she intended to go back to her boring life as an IT girl as soon as Walter was found. Saving lives and helping others by using her computer genius for more than fixing laptops that clumsy businessmen genuinely did spill lattes on made her fulfill her potential in a way that she couldn’t have imagined.

 

Third, they have chemistry. Stephen Amell positively lights up opposite Emily Bett Rickards, and the natural dynamic between them is wonderfully compelling. Oliver doesn’t look into Felicity’s eyes; he gaaaaaaaazes at her. Felicity glows when he makes her smile, and Oliver blushes when she makes him happy. They’re fun to watch together. It was true before they were a couple. Heck, it was true before Felicity knew his secret and thought he was just an idiot who was cute and influential enough to pull favors. Such a serious series needs a lightening influence to break through the drama, and Oliver and Felicity are capable of providing when not weighed down by manufactured angst.
 

May 27, 2015 3:01 am

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/tagged/Arrow

 

P.S.  I had to Google "in media res".  The phrase "in medias res" is Latin for "into the middle of a thing" and is apparently used to describe a narrative that begins, not at the beginning of a story, but somewhere in the middle or in the midst of action (then flashbacks or exposition are usually used to fill in earlier events).

Edited May 28, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

Again, Laura Hurley read my mind and wrote about why she thinks Oliver & Felicity work as a couple -- expressing exactly what I think as well (but more articulately)...

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/tagged/Arrow

Ditto

[Ang]

Again, Laura Hurley read my mind and wrote about why she thinks Oliver & Felicity work as a couple -- expressing exactly what I think as well (but more articulately)...

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/tagged/Arrow

 

I just spent an embarrassing amount of time responding to this and lost it (yeargggh). It boiled down to: Did we really see them fall in love?  Even before I caught up on the thread yesterday, I had the thought out of the blue that, just like we didn't get to see Oliver and Laurel fall in love, they skipped major parts of that with Felicity.

 

We saw Felicity, from the beginning, demonstrate an admiration for Oliver's appearance, and later we saw the development of respect with a touch of hero-worship, maybe some friendship, and finally belief. (I appreciated that EBR didn't necessarily play it as a hopeless crush while hidden in plain sight; it felt more female-positive that she could think he was hot without it defining their relationship.) I don't know when she knew she was in love with him; the one thing all these characters have in common is that they're not the most introspective/self-aware people on the planet. I think there was a lot of denial/avoidance going on throughout S3, though. 

 

The discussion about SA's take on 2.06 was interesting. I wonder how much the writers', the directors', and the actor's take on that varied, because I feel like if we were supposed to see Oliver fall in love with Felicity in S2, there was a major breakdown somewhere. I personally left S2 (although I did watch it rather piecemeal and out of order) thinking that Oliver was a douche and Felicity was being used horribly. largely because we'd just had half a season of seeing what a nonpresence she was in Oliver's life. (Side note on Oliver's douchiness: when I fell down the fanfic blackhole, I stumbled into Still Waters and Quiet Men, which is a beast of a thing - 800,000+ words and not finished, although there haven't been recent updates. Oliver in that is encapsulated by just about any D-word you can think of, and is not far off from how I took him from S1-2. Also, I now have complicated feelings about Batman....) Oliver fought his feelings pretty successfully, because I wasn't at all sure they were there. 

 

Watching people fall in love is fun! Negotiating the treacherous ground between strangers and partners is a thrilling, terrifying thing, and showing characters on that path is a great way to draw in an audience and create sympathy. And yet, we haven't actually seen that on Arrow. Oliver and Laurel were in medias res, even in the flashbacks. Oliver and Sara never fell in love, per se; the flashback scenes were tainted and twisty, relationship-wise, and in present time we got the out-of-the-blue Lunge of Desperation rather than any kind of intimacy build. We actually saw hints with Helena and McKenna, although neither of those count as "in love," really. Even with Felicity, it was 0-20mph in two years, then up to 60 over the summer hiatus. Then, suddenly, we were at 90 with Oliver's status as hopelessly in love with Felicity (and hers as heartbroken over Oliver) informing plot points, character development, and emotional beats. And, as with Laurel in S1, they hadn't done the work to support it. I think it's because they needed Oliver to have this barren, bleak existence to overcome, and they didn't know how to fit "sunny happy falling in love and having a lover's support" in with Oliver's journey, but they didn't think about how that would affect the audience's perception of the relationship(s) on which they were hanging so much of the writing.  

 

I think both Laurel and Felicity were shortchanged because of this weird reticence to show them falling in love with Oliver. Laurel's anger and bitterness, and Felicity's grief and fury, would probably have been a lot more palatable if the audience had had a chance to see them "earning" their relationship with Oliver first.

[kismet]

I think we saw Oliver fall in love. I think a lot of it is very subtle. And I have to admit, some of it you have to be looking closely for in the earlier seasons. Felicity is a harder one to pinpoint. I'm not sure we saw her fall in love, as much as deny that she was in love - which is sorta a backwards admission of love. It's so weird because for a lot of the season when I thought about them being in love or even some of the other characters, it felt like I had the soundtrack to Disney's Hercules playing in my head. Somethings just seemed to blur at times. The plots were different, but the characterizations felt eerily similar at points. Here is how the soundtrack broke down in my head = I won't say Im in love (FS); Zero to Hero (Ray, LL); Go the Distance (OQ); One Last Hope (MM) & basically just the Muses (Maseo, MM, Tatsu & Ras) running around singing through all the missing plot points a lot is sounded like Prophecy, not so much Gospel Truth.

 

I don't think we've actually seen them be in love or navigate the waters from friendship to romantic relationship. The stuff that ANG is referring to I think will come in s4. Because their partnership was so much am integral part of Team Arrow logistically & metaphorically, I think it was difficult for the writers to really break it down & show that journey. There really wasn't a good way to break up their partnership to then have them work towards a relationship. Even when FS was stranded on Palmer Island, she still had to keep coming back to be part of TA. Its why I feel that they mishandled RP as a romantic interest (although, personally I think they should have kept it platonic). But since they were inclined to go the romantic route, they should have gotten them into a relationship sooner, because then it would have felt like FS was really trying to move forward. Instead a lot of s3a felt like angsty limbo where none of the characters really did anything about a relationship and then s3b was petal to the metal.

 

But I think people can fall in love with each other and not realize it. There isn't always the standard progression needed to earn a relationship on TV or in real life. People can just suddenly realize that this person means more to me than a friend, esp with some life/death events & triggers that happen on Arrow. I will admit that the writing did accelerate & decelerate for plot purposes, but that's a problem with all of s3, not just O/F relationship. I believe that s4 will be the season that they earn their relationship. No relationship is without work, and the O/F is gonna take work all things considered. But I also believe that they needed to be in a relationship first, before they actually started earning it. Logistically speaking and considering their personalities I feel like this route to a relationship felt organic. Its believable to me that they would stumble into a relationship and then start to work on it. Its not the most standard depiction of falling in love on TV, but it has been done before.

Edited May 28, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

I feel like we watched them fall in love... This might just be me, but there were so many moments in season two when I felt like screaming "Just kiss each other already!" -- Those are the key moments where I felt like they were falling for one another (Oliver saves Felicity, Felicity tells Oliver to go save Thea, Felicity tries to stop Oliver from giving up on his suicide mission, Felicity tells Oliver that he's not done fighting, Oliver and Felicity talk about the ruse on Lian Yu, etc.). Because when I, the viewer, feel the need to have two characters kiss each other after a moment they share, it shows that, that moment meant a lot more than the characters realize. 

 

I hope that sort of makes sense. 

[tv echo]

Here's how Laura Hurley described the progression of O/F's relationship (I know it sounds like I just parrot her, and I really don't agree with everything she writes - just a lot of what she writes matches what I think at this point)...

To answer your question about whether or not the Oliver and Felicity romance was natural…it wasn’t and it was.

 

For me, the Oliver/Felicity relationship has been by far the healthiest and most consistent of Oliver’s over the three seasons of the show that have aired thus far, and the progression from friendship into romance was organic and true to their dynamic as partners. It was getting ridiculous that none of the sparks flying were ever fanned into little flames from time to time. In the sense that they grew from acquaintances to friends to lovers on screen, I think that their love story has been natural.

 

I do, however, think that there was more material that could have been mined between Oliver’s “I love you” at the end of Season 2 and their date in the beginning of Season 3. The blatant flirting and physical affection between them in the premiere was cute and refreshing after the broodfest of the latter half of the previous season, but it would have been nice to see how they grew from determinedly not acknowledging the elephant in the Arrow Cave that was their chemistry to them bantering about beds in front of Diggle and Roy. Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards sold it, and I bought it, but the romance did not need to hit the ground running.

 

The overall narrative of the season wouldn’t even have had to change much if the show had spent an episode or two with them mooning over each other and then building to events of the date and the birth of the Diglette and Sara’s demise. Oliver could have torpedoed the relationship due to Sara’s death rather than a rocket from a plain old Villain Of The Week, adding a deeper sense of tragedy to both sides of their heartbreak without counteracting Oliver’s growth over the first two seasons.

 

So, I think that development of the love story between Oliver and Felicity was extremely natural. I also think that skipping so many of the relationship steps in between made it feel unnatural at times for fans who did not want to fill in the blanks of the hiatus for themselves. The establishment of Oliver and Felicity’s romance was somewhat sacrificed to a rushed narrative, and the setup could have been much cleaner for the general audience.
 

May 25, 2015 6:10 pm

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/tagged/Arrow/page/2

 

P.S. Of course, in order to fully appreciate the development of their relationship over the hiatus, we are forced to buy MG's Season 2.5 digital comics. (eye roll)

Edited May 29, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I swear that Laura Hurley is my sister from another mother -- because her description of when she began to ship Oliver & Felicity could have been mine:

Hi! I know you have heavily lean towards Olicity in terms of shipping preferences. My question to you is: was there a particular moment when you started shipping them or when you went 'wow, I really like where the writers are going with these two?
laurawritesabout laurawritesabout said:

Oooh, fun question!

 

First, some background on me: I have not been watching Arrow live for three seasons. I have been watching Arrow live for one season. After I decided that I would be covering another show for the 2014 - 2015 TV season, I landed on Arrow and went on a massive summer marathon. When I go into a show intending to write about it, I try to stay objective…ish, and Arrow was going to be no different.

 

Summer 2014 Laura was a naive, naive woman.

 

While watching the pilot, I was more or less indifferent. It was interesting enough for a CW show, but I hadn’t yet been impressed by Stephen Amell and I’d never even heard of the Green Arrow. I had a moment of “Whoa, he’s hot” for Oliver and “Whoa, she was on The O.C.” for Thea, but I didn’t have any visceral reactions to any character…until Laurel.

 

Now, this is going to seem incredibly petty - I know that it’s incredibly petty - but I was turned off of the character of Laurel Lance in the exact moment that she switched off the news program that her coworkers were watching. With that small and even understandable moment of Laurel not being able to cope with Oliver being mentioned, I didn’t want to root for her to be on screen with the main character. Oliver already brought out the worst in her. I didn’t like her and I didn’t like the relationship and they hadn’t even been on screen together yet. When they did get on screen together…well, I was uncomfortable and unhappy and embarrassed that this was the couple that I was supposed to root for. I’ve always preferred character to plot, and I did not enjoy who these characters were when they were around each other. Oliver was the hero, but he wasn’t somebody that I wanted to see more of when he was with Laurel.

 

This was the pilot.

 

Still, the first episode sucked me in enough and I was going to write about the show and I kept watching…but I couldn’t enjoy the Oliver who was always vacillating from broody to penitent to murderous. Even the relationships from before the island that were happier were colored by the fact that Oliver was lying in 95% of their interactions. Oliver was always in control of everything and had backup plans for his backup plans. He’d deliberately made a fool of himself to hide his agenda. He’d gone out of his way to appear shallow and vain. He checked out ladies because he was supposed to check out ladies and he threw parties because he was supposed to throw parties and he proclaimed his love for tequila because it was one proclamation of love that people would actually believe. Everything about him was carefully calculated. It was exhausting.

 

But then, something happened. A mercenary shot a laptop full of bullets and sent Oliver to the IT department of his family company, and everything changed.

 

The stop at the IT department was just a box to tick in Oliver’s grand plan for catching Deadshot. One and done. In and out. Instead, he runs into this young woman in a pink shirt who babbles in disbelief that Oliver Queen walked into her office but who is not quite starstruck enough not to look at him incredulously when he told her that he’d spilled a latte on the laptop. He was caught off guard and dumbfounded and funny. Who was this man and why was he suddenly so much more appealing?

 

It was after Oliver met Felicity that I started to genuinely like Oliver, and I couldn’t help but look forward to their interactions. He was always just so light and genuine and…dumb. I could just imagine Oliver marching up to her office all confident in his cover story and so sure that this time, she wouldn’t find a loophole that would make him look like a huge doofus…and then she would and he’d be improvising again and it would be so stupid and endearing and I liked him.

 

But I wasn’t shipping Olicity. I wasn’t shipping anybody. In fact, I was proud of myself for staying detached enough not to pull for one couple or another for a show that I’d be writing about.

 

Then, I got to “Vertigo” in my marathon. Once I stopped replaying the sports bottle scene, I made it to the end of the episode and the scene at Big Belly Burger. Oliver waves like a giant dork out the window at somebody. Felicity walks in with soft lighting behind her and rain on the windows and asks Oliver if she can trust him. She looks so disappointed in him when he turns the smarmy Ollie smile on her that he literally corrects his behavior instinctively and affirms that she can trust him. She hands over the notebook, and the scene ends.

 

And I paused the episode, stared at the screen, and said - pardon my French - “Oh, God damn it.”

 

May 25, 2015 9:11 pm

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/tagged/Arrow/page/2

Edited May 29, 2015 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

It really was the dorky wave that got me. I'm still not convinced that isn't SA and not Oliver.

 

Maybe that's part of what I like so much about Oliver when he's around Felicity. I think EBR and Felicity bring out hints of SA (and he's such a charismatic dork) in the midst of Oliver's overwhelming PTSD and self-hate. 

[tv echo]

This was posted recently by a fan (M-ArtRevenge) to address the "because comics" argument.  It's a lengthy and very detailed analysis of why this fan loves Dinah & Oliver in the comics, but loves Felicity & Oliver's relationship on the TV show.  Having never read the comics, I found it very interesting...

 

Time to Talk
http://m-artrevenge.tumblr.com/post/119626391973/time-to-talk

Edited May 30, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

Saw that tumblr post, it was an interesting read. I think it made some strong points. A lot of them were similar to some of what people said here regarding the TV v. Comic characters & couples. Those comic readers/followers here, is what she posts factual and accurate about the comic characters, relationships & plots?

Edited May 30, 2015 by kismet

[Angel12d]

This was posted recently by a fan (M-ArtRevenge) to address the "because comics" argument.  It's a lengthy and very detailed analysis of why this fan loves Dinah & Oliver in the comics, but loves Felicity & Oliver's relationship on the TV show.  Having never read the comics, I found it very interesting...

 

Time to Talk

http://m-artrevenge.tumblr.com/post/119626391973/time-to-talk

 

 

I just finished reading this and was coming over here to post! Really insightful and interesting read. Definitely touched on the reasons why I think Laurel was never really given a chance from the start, why I never liked Lauriver and why Olicity just works (for me personally). Would recommend. 

[olicityfan25]

Also someone reblogged that and added how Sara actually wanted to date Oliver first but then Laurel was with him and knew. Sara isn't a slut and we saw how selfish Laurel is.

[Password]

...what makes a person a slut?

At the end of the day they were both pretty horrible to each other. Oliver and Sara getting back together sunk Lauriver (for me) but I do wish they spent more time fixing Laurel and Sara's relationship. It was full of ugly holes.

[Happy Harpy]

I really miss the Moira/Felicity relationship, too, and it's one more reason why I miss Moira. (I just showed the first S1 episodes to friends of mine, warning them that S3 sucked donkey balls of course, and I realized that Moira was a big part of my being hooked up from the start).

 

Two smart women, alike in their strong backbone and readiness to fight for whom they loved, and yet polar opposites about everything else or almost. I could root for one yet understand the other. 

I loved that Felicity didn't back down, placed Oliver's trust in her first and did what she thought was the right thing. I loved that Moira went for ruthlessness to protect her children first, in what she thought was the right way.

It was a rare case, imo, of a female adversarial relationship that didn't look like a petty catfight or made for the male eye. Even though their relationship existed because of Oliver, it was about Moira and Felicity imo.

 

I also liked how they didn't make the same mistakes with Oliver/Felicity as they did with Oliver/Laurel, i.e having Oliver's family act as a proxy to tell the audience how they should feel about the relationship, out of the blue and without rhyme or reason.

I liked that Felicity didn't like Moira, and that Moira didn't like Felicity**, because it made sense, considering who they were. 

Same, it took three years before Thea and Felicity began to know each other, in a situation that, yep, made sense. Well, it would have made sense during Oliver's non-death but it was Laurel time and Atom spinoff (oops, LOL) time. 

 

I don't think they could ever have been close, but I believe that they could coexist and maybe learn to respect/appreciate each other's intelligence/talent while still not liking each other.

And I would have bought Felicity making a deal with shady Moira for Thea or Oliver a thousand times more easily than I would ever buy Oliver making a deal with Malcolm, or Felicity accepting to help Laurel in order to freaking lie to Quentin about his daughter's death, which no, I have not and will never stomach and is still counting as one of my biggest WTF this season in its out-of-characterness. 

 

But considering the poor treatment that most relationships had to go through in S3, I begin to believe that Moira/Felicity would have been too complex to handle and would have been ruined into something black and white and cartoonish. 

 

**Nope, I don't need everyone to love Felicity. Actually, I wish Ray hadn't loved Felicity, because she might have gotten a chance to have a good storyline, or at least one that was hers in S3. I just need coherence, and relationships to develop onscreen or from something that I saw onscreen -and by this, I don't mean  something that I was merely told.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[NumberCruncher]

**Nope, I don't need everyone to love Felicity. Actually, I wish Ray hadn't loved Felicity, because she might have gotten a chance to have a good storyline, or at least one that was hers in S3. I just need coherence, and relationships to develop onscreen or from something that I saw onscreen -and by this, I don't mean  something that I was merely told.

Because this can never be said too much...yep, still mad about it.

Edited May 30, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[tarotx]

Oliver is a slut....

And Laurel and Sara were nasty to each other. I wanted to see more about why.

...what makes a person a slut?

At the end of the day they were both pretty horrible to each other. Oliver and Sara getting back together sunk Lauriver (for me) but I do wish they spent more time fixing Laurel and Sara's relationship. It was full of ugly holes.

Edited May 30, 2015 by tarotx

[ruby24]

I was actually pretty shocked that when Oliver and Sara started dating, they acted like everyone should just be totally cool with it. It's not like they were getting back together, the only thing they'd had was that ill fated affair on the boat (right? they hadn't dated before that had they?) that had destroyed Laurel's relationship with both Ollie and her, so the idea that they'd just start hooking up again in front of everyone was pretty galling.

 

It's funny, because when that happened I also got the impression that the writers didn't think this was that big a deal either, because they had Laurel and Quentin quickly get over it, like it was their job to forgive all of that, but truthfully, Oliver and Sara deciding to do that made them both total and complete assholes imo. I could never understand how or why Laurel was supposed to be so cool with that that she could even offer Sara advice on dating him, like it was nothing.

 

Laurel and Sara never even had a conversation about how she could have done something like that to her own sister in the first place- I honestly don't think the writers ever understood the magnitude of awful a betrayal that was. Hadn't O/L been together for years at that point? Even if he was a horrible boyfriend that whole time, doing that to your own sister is pretty fucked up. And it's one thing to acknowledge the mistake you made, but then to just start dating him openly like it's nothing as soon as they see each other again? That makes the both of them (O/S) really horrible people, much worse than anyone on the show wanted to acknowledge.

Edited May 30, 2015 by ruby24

[tarotx]

I didn't expect Laurel to get over Oliver cheating on her with her sister. It's just Nasty to me.

Oliver hooked up with Sara Originally because he didn't want to settle down and Sara was this hot blond chick eager for his attention. Laurel's sister or not it was more about Sara being into him and Oliver running away from commitment.

Sara had a crush on Oliver and couldn't get him out of her head and Laurel being with him just made the crush present in her life. Laurel taking her crush was probably a big blow to her.

But Oliver and Sara rehooked up out of frustration at how dealing with family and life and a mutual understanding that coming back from the dead wasn't easy.

Edited May 30, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

I was not surprised by OQ/SL friendship or even a physical relationship. But when they were actually dating and discussing places to stay together (albeit for different reasons) it did feel a little like whoa that accelerated quickly. I keep on seeing that gif of Ron Burgundy.

 

Are we sure everyone is ok with this? Should people be ok with this? Shouldn't SL be trying to repair her relationship with her family? Shouldn't OQ recognize that this is not the wisest decision if he does care/love both SL & LL?

 

To willingly put yourself between/come between 2 sisters for a second time is just not the best decision. To semi quote Robert Queen, "there is no way this ends well for either of you". I know the Queen's Gambit was sabotaged, but maybe fate was trying to tell you something? That being said, I totally understand as 2 lost souls who suffered similar tragedies and are still broken from them would seek & find comfort in each other. So it is a catch-22 situation in many ways.

 

The fact that Laurel was so accepting within an episode or 2 after the family dinner of doom was just a weird choice for the writers to make. I have a sister and I try to be careful in meddling in her relationship. I give her advice, but I try to let her make her own decisions. LL having been intimately involved with OQ just brings her advice giving to a whole other level of awkward & weird, perhaps even inappropriate. Then again, I'm not as familiar with the etiquette on advice giving for a sibling who is dating your ex, who happens to also be one the people he cheated on you with. That's a bad talk show level therapeutic conversation skill set that I've yet to come across personally or professionally.

Edited May 30, 2015 by kismet

[JenMD]

I was actually pretty shocked that when Oliver and Sara started dating, they acted like everyone should just be totally cool with it. It's not like they were getting back together, the only thing they'd had was that ill fated affair on the boat (right? they hadn't dated before that had they?) t

I thought the implication (if not the text, but honestly, the writers just kept changing the text so I don't remember particulars) was that they had been seeing each other behind Laurel's back.  I don't think the boat trip was supposed to be the start of their relationship. 

 

What has always surprised me about how they wrote Oliver/Sara was the lack of relationship in the flashbacks on the island.  Seeing as how they opened 2.14 like they were college sweethearts getting back together, I thought the writers would put some kind of relationship between them on the island to explain this comfortable relationship they just kind of slipped back into, but that never really materialized.  No wonder SA and CL were confused about Oliver and Sara's relationship. 

 

And yeah, Laurel offering relationship advice in these circumstances will never not be weird.  They really bungled Laurel and Sara's relationship overall.

[ruby24]

Oh- see I hadn't got that impression at all. I thought the boat trip fling was the only thing they'd had. That should have been clearer, because even when Sara was planning to go with him, I thought she was just seizing the opportunity.

 

They never really referenced them as having a past relationship, it was always just that he cheated on his girlfriend with her sister on the boat. If they had been together before, I totally missed that.

[manbearpig]

Also someone reblogged that and added how Sara actually wanted to date Oliver first but then Laurel was with him and knew. Sara isn't a slut and we saw how selfish Laurel is.

 

Sara wanting to date Oliver first was a blatant retcon though, and I still don't know why they did it because it just made Laurel seem like a terrible sister at a time when she was coming across pretty badly anyway. I love the Lance sisters and it still bothers me that the show delayed their reunion for half a season and then killed Sara off when they were finally on good terms. Really hoping for some good interaction between them when they resurrect Sara because they became one of my favourite relationships on the show despite some truly shoddy writing.

 

 

I really miss the Moira/Felicity relationship, too, and it's one more reason why I miss Moira. (I just showed the first S1 episodes to friends of mine, warning them that S3 sucked donkey balls of course, and I realized that Moira was a big part of my being hooked up from the start).

 

I miss Moira, too, but don't quite understand the love for Moira/Felicity since, IIRC, they had about two scenes together. Only a few more if you count brief exchanges like Felicity saying hello to the Queens at a party or visiting Walter at the hospital. I think they could've been great together though and enjoyed seeing Felicity stand up to Moira even if I did think that Moira actually have went in for her a little more viciously if she wasn't Felicity Smoak, series regular. But that doesn't bother me that much because I didn't want anything to happen to Felicity.

[wonderwall]

I miss Moira, too, but don't quite understand the love for Moira/Felicity since, IIRC, they had about two scenes together. Only a few more if you count brief exchanges like Felicity saying hello to the Queens at a party or visiting Walter at the hospital. I think they could've been great together though and enjoyed seeing Felicity stand up to Moira even if I did think that Moira actually have went in for her a little more viciously if she wasn't Felicity Smoak, series regular. But that doesn't bother me that much because I didn't want anything to happen to Felicity.

Before Felicity's confrontation with Moira, their relationship was different. Moira didn't give a damn about Felicity and Felicity was just... Felicity (all nervous babbles) when it came to Moira. 

 

What intrigued me with that confrontation scene with Felicity/Moira was that they are two powerful women in completely different ways going head to head with one another. Moira is intimidating, confident, incredibly smart, unwilling to lose. Felicity is naive, an underdog, incredibly smart, has good judgement, and has strong principles. It could've been a wonderful relationship. And not necessarily a positive one, but one where both of them would have respect for one another but constantly challenge each other. What would've made it even more complicated were if Moira were alive while Felicity and Oliver started dating. 

 

It could've been so much more than what it was. Moira could learn not to underestimate Felicity, Felicity could learn how to deal with Moira and her ways and maybe keep an eye on her. 

 

It wasn't the scene per se, but more what could've come out of that scene, which is a complicated yet intriguing relationship. 

 

And it's no doubt that both Felicity and Moira fiercely love Oliver, so imagine if they had to work together to help Oliver get over his crap? That would've been glorious. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[manbearpig]

I definitely agree that there was a lot of untapped potential between Moira and Felicity. I just meant that I didn't miss the relationship since we never really got to see it, IMO, but it could have made for some good television for sure. I'm not convinced the writers could have handled a relationship like that, anyway. Maybe my distaste for the current season is just colouring my opinion of past seasons though.

[wonderwall]

I definitely agree that there was a lot of untapped potential between Moira and Felicity. I just meant that I didn't miss the relationship since we never really got to see it, IMO, but it could have made for some good television for sure. I'm not convinced the writers could have handled a relationship like that, anyway. Maybe my distaste for the current season is just colouring my opinion of past seasons though.

 

I can't say I miss their relationship (because they didn't have one), but I AM bitter about how we won't be able to see their relationship unfold. 

 

But I have an interesting question, how do you guys think this season would've been different if Moira were alive? 

[ruby24]

I actually thought Felicity was totally out of line with her demands that Moira fess up about Thea being Malcolm's and telling Oliver about it. That was none of her business, had nothing to do with her, and really nothing directly to do with Oliver either. It was a family secret that she was not a part of.

[Genki]

I don't think Felicity was out of line at all. Moira was knowingly shady, Felicity had found out something that Moira had hidden and given that Malcolm was the S1 big bad that Team Arrow faced against there was no way that Felicity would keep this from Oliver. If she was threatening to tell Thea, I would have thought it strange but there was no way, IMO, that Felicity would not let Oliver know.

 

I feel she approached Moira to let her know she found out this big secret and that Oliver will find out about it one way or another, Felicity was giving Moira the chance to let Oliver (and possibly Thea as well) know in her own way, but Moira tried to manipulate Felicity into no telling Oliver. I was an interesting scene and dynamic, it left me wanting more scene between the actors and the characters.

[dtissagirl]

Saw that tumblr post, it was an interesting read. I think it made some strong points. A lot of them were similar to some of what people said here regarding the TV v. Comic characters & couples. Those comic readers/followers here, is what she posts factual and accurate about the comic characters, relationships & plots?

Comic reader here. I just read that post, it seems pretty accurate to me. Their feelings on comic book Dinah/Oliver is different from mine, but I understand that take. I'm not a fan of D/O in the comics because I kinda like Dinah about seventeen billion times better than I like Oliver, and I don't like how she's written in the relationship, nor how their relationship only seems to benefit him. But I totally understand getting engaged in a couple because you watched them fall for each other, and then when the complications [cheating] start, you're already invested enough that you end up rooting for better times/reconciliation.

In the show, we've never seen Laurel and Oliver fall for each other, we've never even seen any good times in their relationship. That made it extremely hard for me to root for them. Add to that the fact that I have never ever liked Laurel for a single time ever, and that pairing was dead in the water from the pilot for me.