S01.E03: Mommie Dearest

[caracas1914]

On 3/24/2017 at 11:08 AM, qtpye said:

I say this as a person, who has seen Lange look absolutely stunning and youthful on American Horror Story.  She is just not bringing Joan and Crawford's overly formal style of dressing, just does not suit Lange's natural good looks.  In comparison, Bette's earth tones, Yankee practicality, and fur coats (her touch of "Hollywood glamour") fit Sarandon like a glove.  Lange seems to be doing an impression of a daft old lady going to tea.  It just does not work for me.

I think that Jessica Lange is such a different "type" from Joan Crawford that it's jarring at times onscreen.   Say what you will about Joan Crawford but when she dressed like the movie star, lacquered as she was in her later days, she seemed completely comfortable in that role, almost reveling in it.  In her interviews she was polished and perhaps rehearsed, but you saw that persona in full mode.  In this series, I don't get that impression from Lange.  The glamour and larger than life star presence just isn't there, even if Jessica is arguably a much better actress than Joan was.

[SWLinPHX]

On 3/24/2017 at 11:15 AM, iMonrey said:

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Except all generations have seen "The Wizard of Oz".  I don't think many Millennials (or even all Gen X-ers) have seen "Baby Jane".

Well, that's true but I think in a series like this that attempts to re-create a cult film there has to be a certain expectation that key scenes will be shown. You can't go into a show about a movie and rightfully expect not to be "spoiled" about that movie. 

My point was they should see the original film first -- not just for the spoiler but to better appreciate the recreated scenes shown in "Feud".

[caracas1914]

2 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

I think that Jessica Lange is such a different "type" from Joan Crawford that it's jarring at times onscreen.   Say what you will about Joan Crawford but when she dressed like the movie star, lacquered as she was in her latter days, she seemed completely comfortable in that role, almost reveling in it.  In her interviews she was polished and perhaps rehearsed, but you saw that persona in full mode.  In this series, I don't get that impression from Lange.  The glamour and larger than life star presence just isn't there, even if Jessica is arguably a much better actress than Joan was.

[Valny]

That comparison site is pretty interesting. Thanks for posting that enoughcats.  In that last ep, I remember thinking I wish they'd had more dark circles under Jessica's eyes in the beach scene because I always remembered that's the way Blanche looked dying there. So in that side by side comparison you could see that.

[Spartan Girl]

This show is so addicting. Now I have the urge to watch the real Whatever Happened to Baby Jane. I will probably regret it because it looks so damn creepy. Even the reenactment scenes in this show are unnerving. Though I did laugh at the scene where Joan kept cracking up when Bette was dragging her, claiming that she was ticklish. And then it turns out she was faking it the whole time.

[Inquisitionist]

12 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

She was nominated for an Oscar portraying Frances Farmer wasn't she?    

Lange has actually won two Oscars, but that doesn't change my opinion.  Different strokes!

[Snappy]

Knowing I was going to watch his, i dvr'd and watch WHTBJ first. I too thought it was just a b movie based on the name and photos of BD as BJ, but boy was I wrong. It was awesome. It was hard to feel sorry for Blanche because I'd read Mommy Dearest and formed an opinion of JC, but after this week's episode my opinion has softened. First, obviously, because I believe she was damaged from the sexual abuse. Second, she never had a good role model for a mother, so she Thought she was being a good mother. 

As for SS and JL portrayals, I'm torn. I like that Ryan Murphy is obviously loyal to his actors, but feel other, non-AHS actors could have been more convincing as Bette and Joan. That's not saying SS and JL aren't good actresses, I just believe they aren't the correct actresses for these roles. I wondered if the cute, gay greaser was Sal Mineo.

[annemarieko]

The child that Clark Gable had was with Loretta Young, not Crawford, which Young acknowledged publicly in a biography that was to be published after her death. The typical reaction from the studio would have been to rush Joan to the abortionist, something Loretta refused to do.   Loretta came to understand that the pressure she was put under by Gable would have been called date rape today but it caused tremendous problems between her and her daughter who thought Loretta, a devout Catholic, was a hypocrite. Loretta suffered from terrible guilt her whole life and Gable took no responsibility at all for his daughter.   From all the books I've read women in general were continuously pressured to sleep with producers, directors, male actors with clout in the industry,, etc, so Joan's stepfather was undoubtedly one of many men who expected Joan to go to bed with them.  Women like Bette, Loretta Young, etc were known for refusing to be pressured in order to get better roles, etc.  

BTW, Myrna Loy, an actress I really admire, was a friend of Joan's and said the only time she was happy that she couldn't have children was when she saw Christina Crawford.  She said Joan never complained or  said anything negative about her children, though Loy thought Christina was an awful, impossible girl.  Loy worked with Christina on stage and said that she had talent but simply refused to do what the director asked of her, caused problems for everyone else and therefore didn't go anywhere in the industry.  Loy said that Joan loved the trappings of a movie star,  something that didn't impress Loy at all - she was one of the divas of her day - but there was no greater friend and that Joan would do anything for you and give you anything she could if you were a friend of hers.  She found her kind and caring.  I sympathize with all of these women; it couldn't have been an easy profession for a women and it doesn't seem as though many of them had what we would consider a happy childhood. 

[Growsonwalls]

9 hours ago, annemarieko said:

BTW, Myrna Loy, an actress I really admire, was a friend of Joan's and said the only time she was happy that she couldn't have children was when she saw Christina Crawford.  She said Joan never complained or  said anything negative about her children, though Loy thought Christina was an awful, impossible girl.  Loy worked with Christina on stage and said that she had talent but simply refused to do what the director asked of her, caused problems for everyone else and therefore didn't go anywhere in the industry.  Loy said that Joan loved the trappings of a movie star,  something that didn't impress Loy at all - she was one of the divas of her day - but there was no greater friend and that Joan would do anything for you and give you anything she could if you were a friend of hers.  She found her kind and caring.  I sympathize with all of these women; it couldn't have been an easy profession for a women and it doesn't seem as though many of them had what we would consider a happy childhood. 

Then as now many children given up for adoption are borne to mothers who aren't prepared to be mothers -- poor, desperate, often addicted to chemical substances. Those kids often grow up with behavioral and academic problems. Don't think the 1930's was any different than now. Not surprising that Christina was not the model child. Also not a surprise that Joan with her background and her personality would be poorly prepared to deal with problem children.

[SPLAIN]

I have Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? on DVD. I watch that movie at least three times in a year. It is one of my favorite  movies of all time. I decided to watch it this past weekend. I found myself thinking back to certain scenes of this mini-series. I couldn't help but see that blow-job scene as I watched Victor Buono in his first scene of WHTBJ?

22 hours ago, Valny said:

That comparison site is pretty interesting. Thanks for posting that enoughcats.  In that last ep, I remember thinking I wish they'd had more dark circles under Jessica's eyes in the beach scene because I always remembered that's the way Blanche looked dying there. So in that side by side comparison you could see that.

ITA.

By the time this episode aired, I began to see Bette and Joan, not Jessica and Susan playing those two.

[TaurusRose]

On 3/20/2017 at 0:23 PM, icemiser69 said:

I just can't imagine either of these women raising kids. 

Funny.  I say the same thing about roughly 30% of the mothers I see now.

[Josette]

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I thought it odd that Hedda Hopper was also married to a Mr. Hopper. I heard a rumor that she never told who William's father was, and that's why he was also Hopper. 

I don't understand this.  Her birth name was not Hedda Hopper.  She married the actor (William) DeWolf Hopper and they had a son named William DeWolf Hopper, Jr.  DeWolf Hopper was famous in his time and this is all a matter of public record.

[ennui]

On 3/28/2017 at 7:45 AM, Josette said:

I don't understand this.  Her birth name was not Hedda Hopper.  She married the actor (William) DeWolf Hopper and they had a son named William DeWolf Hopper, Jr.  DeWolf Hopper was famous in his time and this is all a matter of public record.

He has since been overshadowed by Hedda.

[Josette]

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He has since been overshadowed by Hedda.

My point is only that there's nothing fishy about Hedda Hopper's son's paternity.

[methodwriter85]

On 3/21/2017 at 0:20 AM, TheOtherOne said:

If it hasn't been answered yet, it was Dylan Wittrock, brother of Murphy regular Finn Wittrock.

(No pics on his IMDB page, but some here: https://www.backstage.com/u/dylanwittrock/

I saw the name and figured immediately it had to be Finn's brother. I'm choosing to believe the casting was a little nod to the nepotism theme of the episode. I guess there's perks to being related to Ryan Murphy's current flavor of the month.

Quote

It's implied rather than depicted outright. Christina (and Christopher) are already adults, so we're past most of the episodes covered in Mommie Dearest. We get hints of Joan's hostility to Christina when she is reluctant to sign the card. And she is definitely a control freak in ways that go beyond strictness. When the twins ask for steaks, she orders them very rare without asking the kids how they like them.

The twins have steadfastly refused to admit that any abuse happened to them, and they're insistent on what a lovely upbringing they had. Which might be true- abusers don't always abuse every kid they have, and the twins seem pretty docile and agreeable as opposed to Christina. And Joan might have learned at least a little bit from her mistakes with Christina and Christopher. Like you shouldn't strangle your daughter after she talks sass to you in front of a reporter.

[Baby Button Eyes]

I find it interesting they have what seems to be actual twins cast as Cindy and Cathy. From what I remember, Christina said that the "twins" weren't actual twins, just two baby girls adopted at the same time and Joan passed them off as twins. 

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, Baby Button Eyes said:

I find it interesting they have what seems to be actual twins cast as Cindy and Cathy. From what I remember, Christina said that the "twins" weren't actual twins, just two baby girls adopted at the same time and Joan passed them off as twins. 

That has been proven to be a lie, but it does not mean that Christina lied about everything.

[enoughcats]

I just read Mommie Dearest and IIRC Christine wrote the baby girls didn't look like twins and that Joan said they were fraternal twins.  It was implied that twins were expected, maybe before the twins were selected.  There was the comment that the adoption of the first Christopher fell through when 1stC's birth mother read about his adoption by Miss Crawford and reclaimed him.  This lead JC to change the birth dates of all subsequent adoptees.

This doesn't explain how a lawsuit about twins being real twins could be settled. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by enoughcats

[Phoebe70]

Great episode.  I actually felt sorry for JC after hearing the story about her stepfather.  I never knew she adopted twins.  I only knew about Christina and Christopher from watching the Mommy Dearest movie.  I'm starting to warm up to Susan Sarandon as Bette Davis.  The first couple episodes I felt like I was watching Susan, not Bette.  I suppose it's because to me she looks nothing like Bette (eyes and mouth, mainly).  Her hairstyle in the show is the same hairstyle she normally wears off-screen.

[millennium]

On 3/20/2017 at 4:50 AM, vb68 said:

 

Hedda Hopper was indeed truly a viper. I loved when Bette shot her down saying Joan needed to be in an institution if she thought Hedda was her friend.

I remember how my estimation of Lucille Ball dimmed considerably when I learned that she was an intimate friend of Hedda Hopper.  She even made Hedda Hopper the focus of an I Love Lucy Hollywood episode. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by millennium

[aradia22]

It was fine but not the strongest episode. I enjoyed it but it seemed to be the kind of episode that provokes conversation more than saying something itself. It's too... bald, too obvious. Characters just state the perspectives and issues they want to address... like politicians or pageant contestants. I did think they managed to be sympathetic to both Crawford and Davis though again, the worst of Davis is minimized compared to the worst of Crawford. I thought Lange had some really nice moments this episode but that was undercut later with her behavior on set. I did like all the little tricks... they stood out from normal vanity and really felt like the kind of old school movie tricks that Crawford would have picked up over her years in Hollywood. I remember reading about a few of them when I was doing research on a project a while back. 

I wanted a little more with Victor. I thought that was handled too lightly. 

Also, I noticed more weird wide shots this episode. I get it, the set is pretty but don't show me the set during this dramatic moment. 

Joan going on about being alone with Mamacita there reminded me of this and I'm glad she ended up in her room. I thought Lange brought some nice depth to the discussion of Crawford's own sexual abuse and Crawford's relationship to her children this episode beyond what was in the script. 

Meh on B.D. Really handle it or don't. It felt out of character based on the past episodes. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Based on the episode title, I thought they would really delve into the abuse accusations by Christina Crawford (maybe with flashbacks since she was an adult by the time WEHTBJ was being filmed), but it was interesting to see the twins instead. When Joan 'let" the girls have steak at dinner but she ordered it rare, all I could think of was the scene in Mommie Dearest when Christina had to stand at the table because she refused to eat that bloody raw steak.

I loved the scene where Bette and Joan talked about their childhoods. It definitely made the "You mean we could have been friends all this time?" scene much more poignant.

I liked seeing Bette come around on Victor because she saw that he was a good actor. Seeing her demand that the police release him later was awesome.

Watching Kiernan read her lines so badly was hilarious, as was the look on Bette's face.