S12.E15: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, rue721 said:

 

To be fair, I don't think that it would be a good idea in practice to try and ram the Hellhound with the Impala, because the Impala just isn't that big.

This one time, I was driving on the freeway pretty late at night, and this huge truck tire suddenly loomed up on the road out of nowhere -- guess it fell off a truck or something. I didn't really have time to swerve and there was enough traffic around that that would have been dangerous anyway, so I just tried to hit the tire square and keep going. Really not a good plan. The tire fucked up the whole front of my car, it basically ripped off the bumper. I had figured it would be like a pool ball hitting another pool ball, and the car would transfer all the energy to the tire without having it be a big collision. But in reality, the car kept going somewhat over the tire and snagged it and that damaged the car pretty badly. So anyway, I'm just picturing trying to swerve or hit something big and dynamic like a Hellhound in a little car like the Impala and thinking, it probably wouldn't work?

ETA:  "wouldn't work" as in, I don't think the Impala could really take the hit, and so trying to ram the Hellhould might have caused a bad crash at best

ETA2:  no idea how well Baby handles, though. My car wouldn't have been able to swerve too well, but dunno about an old muscle car! Probably handles completely differently, totally out of my wheelhouse lol

Believe it or not, I once totaled my car hitting a coyote and a coyote is nowhere near the size of a Hell Hound.  Plus, the Hell Hound isn't a mortal dog, so even if run over it wouldn't die, but might lie still long enough to get stabbed.

[Wayward Son]

I'm just starting the episode! Wish me luck! 

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, rue721 said:

 

To be fair, I don't think that it would be a good idea in practice to try and ram the Hellhound with the Impala, because the Impala just isn't that big.

This one time, I was driving on the freeway pretty late at night, and this huge truck tire suddenly loomed up on the road out of nowhere -- guess it fell off a truck or something. I didn't really have time to swerve and there was enough traffic around that that would have been dangerous anyway, so I just tried to hit the tire square and keep going. Really not a good plan. The tire fucked up the whole front of my car, it basically ripped off the bumper. I had figured it would be like a pool ball hitting another pool ball, and the car would transfer all the energy to the tire without having it be a big collision. But in reality, the car kept going somewhat over the tire and snagged it and that damaged the car pretty badly. So anyway, I'm just picturing trying to swerve or hit something big and dynamic like a Hellhound in a little car like the Impala and thinking, it probably wouldn't work?

ETA:  "wouldn't work" as in, I don't think the Impala could really take the hit, and so trying to ram the Hellhould might have caused a bad crash at best

ETA2:  no idea how well Baby handles, though. My car wouldn't have been able to swerve too well, but dunno about an old muscle car! Probably handles completely differently, totally out of my wheelhouse lol

Plus, if Dean is worried about Sam riding the brakes, I'm not sure this would be a smart course of action, myself. I mean, Sam didn't know the hellhound was going to pounce allover the car, but if Sam had purposely put Baby at risk...;)

BTW, I'm guessing a hellhound is bigger and would cause more damage than a deer and I once totaled a Pathfinder that had a metal front grille guard when a deer decided to commit suicide by car. Granted, I was going around 70 mph and I don't think Sam would've been able to get up much speed with the short distance he had there, but it did smash in my front end pretty good. 

[Wayward Son]

Quick question; has Mark Pellegrino been promoted to regular? I just happened to notice they placed him between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the main cast credits.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

I like that you guys' cars have been battling wild beasts like coyotes and deer and I meanwhile hit a tire LOL

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, rue721 said:

ETA:  "wouldn't work" as in, I don't think the Impala could really take the hit, and so trying to ram the Hellhould might have caused a bad crash at best

Baby has been smashed by a semi driven by a demon; she's been flipped over in demon cloud which is probably stronger than one Alpha Hellhound IMO. She would be fine. Baby survived being controlled by Amara for a hot minute.

I think she can survive a run in with a Hellhound. Sam wouldn't have to be a stunt driver.As @ahrtee mentioned. At least he could run it over and keep going. He could have just put it in reverse and drove backwards to get away from her. It was a terrible setup for Sam's kill IMO.

Of course, the whole thing is resolved if Dean drives the car, because we know he can pull a reverse 180 in that car, even after ti's been crashed. I might have missed something but was there a reason other than setting it up for Sam to get the kill why Dean didn't drive? They could have paired Sam with Crowley which would have been interesting. The dialogue wouldn't have to significantly change for a trip down memory lane. I mean YES I UNDERSTAND PLOTTY PLOT PLOT and poor jokes that have worked in 5 years and and the writer didn't want to do that but Dean driving would solve the "can the car be handled".  

Edited March 10, 2017 by catrox14
because redundant is redundant

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Believe it or not, I once totaled my car hitting a coyote and a coyote is nowhere near the size of a Hell Hound.  Plus, the Hell Hound isn't a mortal dog, so even if run over it wouldn't die, but might lie still long enough to get stabbed.

I once had an older (late 70's) model car (Plymouth Volare handmedown - hey, back in college I was not picky) that was all steel, like the Impala, not fiberglass like today's vehicles.  That thing was a beast.  I wish I still had it.  I remember sideswiping a steel fence and it barely scratched the paint.  And tore off the antennae.  (I was not drunk, just not paying attention.)  So I don't think those cars used to get totaled if you hit a deer like nowadays.  The bigger danger was probably the thing sliding on the hood and coming through the windshield at you.  

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Baby has been smashed by a semi driven by a demon

That crash would have killed Dean if John hadn't sold his soul and died in his place, though. It's an awesome car but it's just a car.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

At least he could run it over and keep going and I dunno RUN AWAY FROM it until they can regroup and figure out plan B. 

That's what I'm saying, not necessarily. The Impala doesn't have ton of clearance over the ground. The impact wouldn't have been that clean. It might have fucked up the Hellhound, too, but it would probably have been a pretty major crash and the Hound wouldn't necessarily have even gotten the worst of it.

ETA:  I don't think there was enough space/time for them to do any real maneuvering. Maybe what the show was trying to convey was that they were lucky they even had the choice to stop, I dunno (will have to watch the scene again, I don't really remember)

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 The bigger danger was probably the thing sliding on the hood and coming through the windshield at you.  

Damn that would have been cool! Talk about scary.

Edited March 10, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I like that you guys' cars have been battling wild beasts like coyotes and deer and I meanwhile hit a tire LOL

Well, if it makes you feel any better, it's the only animal I've ever hit and I've lived most of my life in rural areas where deer and other wildlife are serious road hazards. I did, however, roll my little itty bitty car back in college on the nicest, clearest day possible, on a very straight stretch of road where there was no traffic or road hazards. I was just not paying attention, got caught in the gravel on the shoulder and panicked. Believe it or not, I barely damaged the car and drove it across two states to college the next day.

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Damn that would have been cool! Talk about scary.

That would've been awesome and a way to ramp up the sequence, I think.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'll be annoyed if Sam winds up being a dupe of the MoL and unable to recognize when something "feels off," but I'm not going to get preemptively upset. While I agree that they didn't need to include ANY "Sam lies to Dean for the umpteenth time" drama in this plotline, if they were going to do it this episode struck me as the most painless way to go about it: Sam's is a pretty minor lie, as far as Winchester lying goes -- he isn't holding secret pow-wow's with Mick and Ketch, he's just allowing the MoL to bring his attention to hunts without telling Dean the source. He comes clean pretty quickly, and Dean has an, IMO, proportional response to the lie; he isn't happy, but doesn't treat it as a massive betrayal (because it isn't). Finally, the two wind up on the same page. Sam acknowledges he doesn't trust the MoL, which means he isn't totally naive, and Dean acknowledges that, as they've learned over the years, good intel is good intel no matter the source -- but they need to proceed with caution. 

I'm more concerned about where the Cas plot is heading. Crowley got an extended moment of awesome tonight; Cas is WAY overdue for a win. 

THIS.  Sensibly stated.  

[Wayward Son]

And we are back on the Dean doesn't overly care about Cas bandwagon again. 

"He's after something that's been killing angels... again" in the most disinterested tone imaginable without concern that his friend is in the locale of a known angel killer. 

Good to know -sigh-

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

space/time for them to do any real maneuvering. Maybe what the show was trying to convey was that they were lucky they even had the choice to stop, I dunno (will have to watch the scene again, I don't really remember)

And that's another problem with that whole set up. Sam was supposed to keep driving. But I guess we needed a Sam is a sensitive guy, scene. I was fully expecting her to be revealed as having made a deal after all. But no, it was a dumb setup. Sam should have just given her a barf bag and kept going.

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Of course, the whole thing is resolved if Dean drives the car, because we know he can pull a reverse 180 in that car, even after ti's been crashed. I might have missed something but was there a reason other than setting it up for Sam to get the kill why Dean didn't drive? They could have paired Sam with Crowley which would have been interesting.

I think the reasoning might have been - a hellhound on foot wouldn't likely be able to keep up with the car? And shouldn't have been able to scent trail Gwen(?) while she was in the car... but she had to have Sam stop and let her out to I think throw up(?) and Sam was too nice to tell her that she should stay in the car, so of course when she stopped and got out, the hound was able to pick up her scent and here she comes. By most logic, the hound should have been in the woods where Crowley and Dean were and the dead boyfriend.

And of course the big reason: we wouldn't have been able to have the big "lying is bad, mmmkay" anvil.

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

While I agree that they didn't need to include ANY "Sam lies to Dean for the umpteenth time" drama in this plotline, if they were going to do it this episode struck me as the most painless way to go about it: Sam's is a pretty minor lie, as far as Winchester lying goes -- he isn't holding secret pow-wow's with Mick and Ketch, he's just allowing the MoL to bring his attention to hunts without telling Dean the source. He comes clean pretty quickly...

I don't know if I would say that two weeks - which is I think what Sam said - is exactly coming clean quickly. And for some dumb reason he felt compelled to make up a stupid fib about a computer algorithm or whatever it was - he should've said he'd modified an Ap or something at least - just so he could learn "see Dean would've probably been fine with it. You didn't even have to lie." For me, the whole thing was grating and annoying and only there to make Sam look bad, since it really wasn't important to the plot... unless they are going to keep making it an issue later - with Sam not recognizing and/or believing Dean when something becomes "off" - as I have worried they might. And that would be just more of the same.

I just hope the plotonium damage doesn't last too much longer - apparently Sam got hit with a big piece and the brain damage isn't gone yet.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And we are back on the Dean doesn't overly care about Cas bandwagon again. 

"He's after something that's been killing angels... again" in the most disinterested tone imaginable without concern that his friend is in the locale of a known angel killer. 

Good to know -sigh-

I did not get that from that scene. I thought Cas was being  straight forward and Dean was taking it as business as usual. Earlier he told Cas he'd call him back. Then later on Dean pinged some thing was  off with Cas when he said "did you think Cas sounded weird." so i don't think Cas is  being ignored by Dean at all.

Cas opted to not tell Dean he was going back to Heaven. Dean would have been Oh hell no . what are you doing?!" IMO Cas was wrong with to not tell Dean.

Edited March 10, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

Just finished the ep! I had to pause a lot due to distractions. 

My initial reaction... well that episode happened. And I was right to guess that it would be Cas lite with him off in a random B plot.

 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I did not get that from that scene. I thought Cas was being  straight forward and Dean was taking it as business as usual. Earlier he told Cas he'd call him back. Then later on Dean pinged some thing was  off with Cas when he said "did you think Cas sounded weird." so i don't think Cas is  being ignored by Dean at all. Cas is going  to be ignored

I mean Cas opted to not tell Dean he was going back to Heaven. Dean would have been Oh hell no . what are you doing?!" IMO Cas was wrong with to not tell Dean.

I agree that Cas was wrong not to tell Dean. I wasn't a fan of him seeming to want to return to his "real" family storyline either. 

It was a crappy episode all round IMO

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Quick question; has Mark Pellegrino been promoted to regular? I just happened to notice they placed him between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the main cast credits.

Huh. I didn't notice that. I really hope he's not series regular now. But maybe they had to do it to get him to sign on

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Just finished the ep! I had to pause a lot due to distractions. 

My initial reaction... well that episode happened. And I was right to guess that it would be Cas lite with him off in a random B plot.

 

I agree that Cas was wrong not to tell Dean. I wasn't a fan of him seeming to want to return to his "real" family storyline either. 

It was a crappy episode all round IMO

Yeah that just didn't make sense in unless Cas has  a plan.  I mean they just got...familied. Why is he tempted by his angel family?

Has he not heard a word Dean has said?

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think the reasoning might have been - a hellhound on foot wouldn't likely be able to keep up with the car? And shouldn't have been able to scent trail Gwen(?) while she was in the car... but she had to have Sam stop and let her out to I think throw up(?) and Sam was too nice to tell her that she should stay in the car, so of course when she stopped and got out, the hound was able to pick up her scent and here she comes. By most logic, the hound should have been in the woods where Crowley and Dean were and the dead boyfriend.

That was kind of my point:  that Sam's purpose there was to *protect the girl,* not confront the hellhound.  As I recall, there was plenty of time for Sam to try an end run--over, around, or backwards--to get away from the hound.  That was the plan that was set up.  And the ONLY way he should have left the car (and the girl) alone was if there was no way out--if the car had gotten stuck in a rut or a giant pothole, if they were out of gas, if the monster was holding them in place with one giant claw, and the only way to protect the girl was to kill the dog--a last-minute desperate decision.  Otherwise...no.  Because if he fought the dog and lost (or was even just knocked out, as has happened *several times,* the girl would be Alpo.  So that's not exactly being a BDH.  Sometimes it's more heroic to back away, but the writers (or this one, anyway) don't seem to recognize that.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Quick question; has Mark Pellegrino been promoted to regular? I just happened to notice they placed him between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the main cast credits.

I don't think Pellegrino is a regular, but that Misha has gotten an elevation with his "AND" credit and those usually go last. I think the idea is it's the last credit the viewers see?

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Huh. I didn't notice that. I really hope he's not series regular now. But maybe they had to do it to get him to sign on

Yeah that just didn't make sense in unless Cas has  a plan.  I mean they just got...familied. Why is he tempted by his angel family?

Has he not heard a word Dean has said?

I just double checked and he's definitely been placed with J2 and M2 in the main credits. So I guess our main cast now is J2M3. 

I have to confess I am not at all thrilled by this development since I feel the character of Lucifer is exhausted by this point, and this development suggests he'll be around for seasons yet because I couldn't picture him being promoted only to be fired.

However, I'm not a hypocrite, or at least I try not to be, so I'll respect his new role on the show. 

As for the angel stuff I'm hoping it's general forgiveness Castiel seeks rather than family ties. I'll have to give the episode a second watch tomorrow and try to look at certain scenes with a more objective less moody mindset. I found the episode awful and I think it just put me in a bad mood / inclined to see everything in the worst light possible.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Pellegrino is a regular, but that Misha has gotten an elevation with his "AND" credit and those usually go last. I think the idea is it's the last credit the viewers see?

But usually non regulars like Samantha Smith are separated from the main four. For instance shell usually appear after them with the billing "Special Guest Star". 

This is one of the rare occasions where I wish I had twitter to ask the writers about this. Who knows maybe they'd answer since it's a casting question and not complaints about the writing.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, rue721 said:

That crash would have killed Dean if John hadn't sold his soul and died in his place, though. It's an awesome car but it's just a car.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Sam and John survived. dean was already badly injured because Azalel possessed John almost killed him. I would argue that baby protected him even more.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I just double checked and he's definitely been placed with J2 and M2 in the main credits. So I guess our main cast now is J2M3. 

Hasn't he always been listed in the main credits when he's in an episode? I mean, before Shepard was a regular he'd get his name listed in the front titles if he was in the episode. I remember them spoiling Crowley not being dead in S6 by listing him in the front titles of an episode...Mommy Dearest, maybe?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question here?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

ut usually non regulars like Samantha Smith are separated from the main four. For instance shell usually appear after them with the billing "Special Guest S

Yeah the credits are j2 mark And Misha. Then the guest stars. So if he's in between Mark and Misha then he's a regular.

This makes me worry even more for Cas fate. Because that leaves it open for more Lucifer and more Crowley with less Cas and I really  don't want that. .

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah the credits are j2 mark And Misha. Then the guest stars. So if he's in between Mark and Misha then he's a regular.

This makes me worry even more for Cas fate. Because that leaves it open for more Lucifer and more Crowley with less Cas and I really  don't want that. .

What Catrox says usually it goes

Starring: Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles, Mark Shepherd and Misha Collins. 

Special Guest Star: The likes of those who play characters significant to the show such as Sam Smith or particularly famous actors. 

Guests: And the most significant run of the mill guests go here.

This time Mark was slotted in between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the starring section.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hasn't he always been listed in the main credits when he's in an episode? I mean, before Shepard was a regular he'd get his name listed in the front titles if he was in the episode. I remember them spoiling Crowley not being dead in S6 by listing him in the front titles of an episode...Mommy Dearest, maybe?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question here?

Most guest stars are listed AFTER the main cast and have the special guest star or guest star designation.

Before this season it was JP, JA, MC, MS

That changed to JP, JA, MS, And MC. then guest starring Sam Smith, etc. If MPis listed between MS and MC then yeah I'd say that means he's a regular now.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

What Catrox says usually it goes

Starring: Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles, Mark Shepherd and Misha Collins. 

Special Guest Star: The likes of those who play characters significant to the show such as Sam Smith or particularly famous actors. 

Guests: And the most significant run of the mill guests go here.

My understanding is title credits are all down to contract negotiations. I'm not sure it means Pelligrino is tied to Supernatural right now, but that his agent did right by him? He very well could be a series regular, but I haven't heard that, myself. My personal feeling is, he is not, but they really wanted him so they agreed to his terms.

[ahrtee]

Do they change a guest star's status (or add a new regular) in the middle of the season?  Because IIRC, if someone is a "regular" they show up in all the episode credits, not just the ones they appear in, and we haven't seen MP's credit before (except when he was actually in the ep.)  But maybe that was just to keep it a secret?  

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Sam and John survived. dean was already badly injured because Azalel possessed John almost killed him. I would argue that baby protected him even more.

I'm saying that purposefully crashing into the Hellhound could have totaled the car and gotten Sam and Gwen killed, because that's a pretty big crash. IRL people don't purposefully crash into deer for the same reason. And I shouldn't have purposefully crashed into an abandoned tire LOL.

How I understood it, you said the Impala could take it judging by what happened when it got slammed by that semi, but I was saying that that was a big and nearly lethal crash, too.

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If MPis listed between MS and MC then yeah I'd say that means he's a regular now.

IA, but hopefully that still doesn't mean much for his longevity? I mean, Tara was a regular on Buffy for exactly one episode, lol. I'm clinging to the theory that whatshisname who plays Lucifer is just a regular because they want to lead up to a Big Dramatic (Final) Death for him, a la Tara on Buffy

[Wayward Son]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Do they change a guest star's status (or add a new regular) in the middle of the season?  Because IIRC, if someone is a "regular" they show up in all the episode credits, not just the ones they appear in, and we haven't seen MP's credit before (except when he was actually in the ep.)  But maybe that was just to keep it a secret?  

That is the general rule with most shows, but not with Supernatural. Misha and Mark S have been publicly described as series regulars for several seasons now. However, their names only appear at the beginning of episodes they star in. So I'd assume the same will apply to Mark P if he has been promoted. 

Also because I like sources: 

The credits begin 0.25 into the video.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

And we are back on the Dean doesn't overly care about Cas bandwagon again. 

"He's after something that's been killing angels... again" in the most disinterested tone imaginable without concern that his friend is in the locale of a known angel killer. 

Good to know -sigh-

I didn't think that it sounded like Dean didn't care. There is always angel drama that Cas has to deal with. I took it as "same old, same old". As an aside I don't think that Dean acts as if he doesn't care about Cas but that's just me.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, rue721 said:

How I understood it, you said the Impala could take it judging by what happened when it got slammed by that semi, but I was saying that that was a big and nearly lethal crash, too

Oh i was just addressing Baby's ability to take a punch which is what I thought we were discussing.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I have to confess I am not at all thrilled by this development since I feel the character of Lucifer is exhausted by this point, and this development suggests he'll be around for seasons yet because I couldn't picture him being promoted only to be fired.

I didn't even notice the credit. I've enjoyed Mark Pellegrino in other things as well as on this show but I am exhausted by the never-ending Lucifer story.

Edit to add: I searched IMDB to see if there would be any info regarding whether he was now a regular and the trivia in his bio states that he was in the running to play Castiel before they choose Misha. I never knew that!

Edited March 11, 2017 by DeeDee79

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Edit to add: I searched IMDB to see if there would be any info regarding whether he was now a regular and the trivia in his bio states that he was in the running to play Castiel before they choose Misha. I never knew that!

Yeah, it gets discussed in one of the S5 commentaries on the DVDs, I can't remember right now which though. It thought is was kinda funny it came down to two actors who couldn't be more different. Kripke said, in the end, they went with Misha because he had such an odd and unusual take for the character. Go figure given that we actually know Misha now? ;)

[catrox14]

19 hours ago, Lemuria said:

our warped mind amazing perspicacity, I am still bored by the tension-less sam

I have learned a new word today. I will be using this word henceforth

Thank you

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, it gets discussed in one of the S5 commentaries on the DVDs, I can't remember right now which though. It thought is was kinda funny it came down to two actors who couldn't be more different. Kripke said, in the end, they went with Misha because he had such an odd and unusual take for the character. Go figure given that we actually know Misha now? ;)

I haven't listened to all of the commentaries. I can't imagine Mark in the role but that's mostly due to not being able to see anyone other than Misha as Castiel.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So what happened?  The hellhound shows up in the road in front of them.  Sam can see her.  The hound is just sitting at first, glaring at them.  Sam is in a *steel car* that can probably move at 100 mph or more. 

 

My first thought was that this was more of a Jensen thing.  As I understand he doesn;t like anyone driving the car but him.  I imagine they didnt use the hero car when the hell hound attacked, but rather one of the old beat up ones.   Jensen told a story at a con about one of the stunt drivers who accidentally put Baby in a ditch and he declared no one was driving the car but him.  

Regular vs recurring.  I'm not an expect but as I understand it (just remembering things Ive heard over the years so could be mis-remembering) is that it has very little to do with screen time,  but more to do with pay and availability. 

If your a regular you are contracted for a certain number of episodes, ex 15.  You have to be paid for those 15 episode even if your only used for 10.  An the actor has to make sure they are available to film when when called.   I don't know if they can take outside work or not.   Pellegrino seems to be in demand,  If they wanted him they probably had to lock him in.

Whereas with recurring, if your contracted for 15 but only used for 10, you only get paid for 10,   I do believe you can take outside work as it comes up.

Edited March 11, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Dobian]

I have to chime in as well on the JDM/Lucille reference, that was all kinds of awesome.  Had to rewind that one a few times.

[Boopsahoy]

We watched the episode again tonight and enjoyed it more than yesterday. If you ignore the miss-characterization of Dean as a slob it was an enjoyable episode. I thought Deans reaction to Sam telling him about the BMOL was very mature-he went along with him but made sure that Sam understood he wasn't happy about it. Also when Mick called he went right on board, but I think he will be keeping his eyes out.   

I have a question about the Crowley storyline. We noticed he was very obviously playing with the key to Lucifers cell....did he want those demons to free Lucifer?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And that's another problem with that whole set up. Sam was supposed to keep driving. But I guess we needed a Sam is a sensitive guy, scene. I was fully expecting her to be revealed as having made a deal after all. But no, it was a dumb setup. Sam should have just given her a barf bag and kept going.

After what Dean had said to him earlier about being careful with the car?  No way.  Probably didn't have a barf bag handy anyway (I mean, how often do the guys use one?), so there was no way he was letting her vomit inside Baby.  :)  I'm sure Dean would have pulled over too.  

[Binns]

Meh. I didn't love this. Has Davy Perez actually watched the show? The mischaracterization of Dean at the beginning was egregious. Everyone knows Dean is a neat freak. His kitchen is always spotless. Bed made. Heaven forfend someone drops a gum wrapper. Cleaning the weapons. Etc etc etc etc. That pissed me off right away. The Lucille thing did make me laugh, though. 

DO NOT WANT another Cas/heaven plotline. Bleagh. Tedious scenes. 

I did enjoy some bits:

-Crowley's power over Lucifer. I don't mind Lucifer as much as some as long as he's being played/written as truly evil and not milquetoast like he was for season 11 (although what bothered me more there was Sam being ok with him in their home). 

-I did giggle at the car scenes with Dean. I know it again wasn't good characterization (maybe in season 2 it would have been accurate) but it entertained me. Plus the boys were pretty. 

-I got real pissed at the beginning when Sam lied because I cannot stand brotherly angst. Kudos for wrapping that right up. I thought it showed good growth for Dean to show his trust in Sam and not blow up. And growth for Sam in actually apologizing. 

And that's pretty much it. I know the boys are cutting back what with their families growing but that doesn't mean their storylines need to suffer. Not impressed with many of the new stable of writers. They really ought to watch at least some of the show before writing for it. Some of these misses were easily avoided. 

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

After what Dean had said to him earlier about being careful with the car?  No way.  Probably didn't have a barf bag handy anyway (I mean, how often do the guys use one?), so there was no way he was letting her vomit inside Baby.  :)  I'm sure Dean would have pulled over too.  

Well, I would hope Sam wouldn't care about Dean's words when he's dealing with a victim.

ETA: Sam could have just let her barf and then drove on. He didn't have to sit there and listen to her sob story. He could have listened to her whilst they drove.

Edited March 11, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Binns said:

. I thought it showed good growth for Dean to show his trust in Sam and not blow up. And growth for Sam in actually apologizing.

I have to say I don't understand why there is a perception that Dean was going to blow up and not trust Sam.  I'm not picking on you, I've been seeing this a lot. Dean's entitled to be angry. When was the last time Dean went off on Sam and didn't trust Sam non-MoC influence? They had differences of opinion and argued but honestly I'm kind of puzzled by this. S10 and s9 was MoC influence. S8?

I'm not being snarky, but it seems like maybe folks are remembering back to like s4 but not recent years. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

[rue721]

I agree on the episode's opener being terrible. IMO the jokes were trying way too hard. Grown men don't walk around reminding each other to shower and change their underwear -- that was a really awkward way to set up the jokes about Dean being a slob. And then the jokes themselves were terrible -- not only has Dean never been depicted as much of a slob, but who is SUCH a slob that they are OK having blood and guts in their hair and wearing the same clothes for going on a week? I don't mind gross out humor per se but this was just dumb.

The thing of Dean taking some goop out of his hair and flinging it on the floor especially irritated me. Mostly because then I immediately started wondering about who was going to clean that and when, and thinking that it could actually have been kind of funny if THAT (flinging the goop) had been the set up for the actual joke -- like then someone slips on the goop later or then Dean has to quietly go back in the kitchen later, once Sam is in his room or something, and clean up his own mess so as not to be an asshole roommate. But it also irritated me because I found it too hammy.

There was a lot about this episode that felt too hammy to me TBH. In the writing as well as the acting. YMMV but it felt like the show kept elbowing me in the ribs and telling me to laugh.

Personally, I didn't like the thing with the bat, either. It was pretty funny on Twitter. But on the show it felt out of place and too "try hard" IMO. What made it funny on Twitter is that it was pretty organic and just silly. But on the show it was kind of...I dunno, I don't want to say "Dad Joke-y" but just too hammy.

Also, I kind of wish we had seen the back-to-back fights instead of this one Hellhound fight. I mean, if they didn't even have a chance to clean up between cases, when were they sleeping or eating? How were they even launching RIGHT into fight after fight, without doing any investigative work in between?

I only started the episode this evening and then stopped it (got bored and forgot to un-pause), so I'm sorry if this is all explained. I've now seen about 2/3 of the episode but I'm missing the middle third still, I think.

[Binns]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say I don't understand why there is a perception that Dean was going to blow up and not trust Sam.  I'm not picking on you, I've been seeing this a lot. Dean's entitled to be angry. When was the last time Dean went off on Sam and didn't trust Sam non-MoC influence? They had differences of opinion and argued but honestly I'm kind of puzzled by this. S10 and s9 was MoC influence. S8?

I'm not being snarky, but it seems like maybe folks are remembering back to like s4 but not recent years. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

Well, I had a hard time separating MoC influence out. I felt like at least some of that was deep-seated feelings for Dean about Sam. Maybe "blow up" is too strong but just the episode prior he told Sam to pick a side, and then Sam picks a side that isn't him. Seems like room for angst. 

I'm overall having a hard time with this season (but not to the extent of S7/S8/some of S9) because it all feels so disjointed and i know that's all writing. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Binns said:

Well, I had a hard time separating MoC influence out. I felt like at least some of that was deep-seated feelings for Dean about Sam. Maybe "blow up" is too strong but just the episode prior he told Sam to pick a side, and then Sam picks a side that isn't him. Seems like room for angst. 

I'm overall having a hard time with this season (but not to the extent of S7/S8/some of S9) because it all feels so disjointed and i know that's all writing. 

Yeah I guess that's a matter of perception.

Oh person's "blow up" is another person's argument is another person's minor kerfuffle.

Thanks for responding!

[Lemuria]

Quote

To make Sam (in this case) look like a BDH, 

For me, the Big Damn Hero rating is inversely proportional to the Big Damn Idiot rating.  They had Sam do too many stupid things to get to the BDH point, IMO.  If the Cunning Plan was to Keep Moving, then you--wait for it, now--keep moving.  I mean, Sam, would Sandra Bullock have pulled the bus over because a passenger might be getting bus sick?  Just tell Gwen to open a window.  And then try to outrun or bash the Hound of the Baskervilles (I really don't think that Sam was so terrified of what Dean might say if he dented the Impala that he would put a PiP at risk).  And call 911-DEAN because it's not as if Dean was with a, say, demon who could teleport them both there in a nanosecond--oh, wait.  And then you don't get out of the car (cause it's not as if having a steel framework around you could be any safer than standing out in the open, right? oh, wait).

It's a good thing Gwen was there, wasn't it?  (I really hate when they have characters do stuff like this.  I'm one of the few people I know who hated "The Wrath of Khan" because there were three major points in the film where they have Our Heroes do things so stupid or OOC that they wrecked the film for me.)

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

For me, the Big Damn Hero rating is inversely proportional to the Big Damn Idiot rating.  They had Sam do too many stupid things to get to the BDH point, IMO

Yup.  That's what I said.  Too damn many stupid things.  The problem is that many people either don't think about the stupid moves or forget about them in the excitement of the Hero moment--the big fight, man vs. monster, hand-to-hand.  That's why it's a surprise when someone behaves logically (remember the original Indiana Jones movie--when Indy was threatened by the large man wielding two crossed swords, standing the center of a crowd of people excitedly waiting for a big battle...and he casually pulls out a gun and shoots him.  *that's* logic.  And was totally unexpected.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by ahrtee

[MysteryGuest]

Watched the episode again last night, and it's still not going to make my favorites hit list...not even close.  But it all comes down to the writing, and I guess I have to accept that this particular group of writers just aren't very good.  The dialogue is clunky, the characterizations aren't consistent, the storylines are repetitious...etc., etc., etc.  I just had higher expectations for this season and I really need to let those go at this point.  

I just hate that they have to fall back on the same old, tired plot devices.  It would have been so refreshing to have the episode open up with Sam having an honest conversation with Dean about his decision to work with the BMOL.  He could simply have said that even though he doesn't trust them, they do have monster tracking abilities that the boys don't have, and it would help them to save more people if they could hunt pro-actively rather than reactively...basically to use the BMOL for their own purposes.  Dean's not a moron, and even though it gets lost on this show, their main reason for hunting is still saving people.  I think Sam could have convinced him to at least give it a shot.  There would have been no need to have Sam lie to Dean, and no reason for anyone to say "I told you so" later on.  They could have looked like the intelligent hunters they are, instead of gullible morons.  And it would still allow them to discover just how evil the BMOL are later down the road, and the eventual take-down would be the same.  The lying added absolutely nothing to this episode and was just a stupid, unnecessary negative.

It's the same with the Sam vs. Dean argument and who gets what kills, etc.  I'm not happy with the writing for Dean this year but it's not because Sam has gotten some good kills recently.  It's that while Sam gets the kill, Dean basically does nothing.  Just write some meaningful dialogue and actions for both actors, and let them equally be part of the plot.  Don't have them do ridiculous, out-of-character crap all the time.  Ultimately, just write better episodes.  

It should have been absolutely mandatory for the new writers to binge watch specific episodes of SPN to really get an understanding of who they're writing about.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Personally, I didn't like the thing with the bat, either. It was pretty funny on Twitter. But on the show it felt out of place and too "try hard" IMO. What made it funny on Twitter is that it was pretty organic and just silly. But on the show it was kind of...I dunno, I don't want to say "Dad Joke-y" but just too hammy.

Yeah, I'm the same way. I was rolling my eyes instead of laughing. It would've been a funny outtake they could've released separately, though and I would've laughed my ass off.

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

For me, the Big Damn Hero rating is inversely proportional to the Big Damn Idiot rating.  They had Sam do too many stupid things to get to the BDH point, IMO.

Oh yeah, the plotting was really bad on this one, IMO. And, IMO, it wasn't so much a Big Damn Hero moment as much as a boring stand still and jab the pointy thing in the air moment. It's so funny to me because I remember back in The Devil You Know, they had a two hellhounds fight--invisible creatures--and it was pretty damn cool. Here, pretty damn boring. It's too bad they didn't really turn it into something really cool here. They haven't done an out-of-the-box action sequence in quite a while now.

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say I don't understand why there is a perception that Dean was going to blow up and not trust Sam.  I'm not picking on you, I've been seeing this a lot. Dean's entitled to be angry. When was the last time Dean went off on Sam and didn't trust Sam non-MoC influence? They had differences of opinion and argued but honestly I'm kind of puzzled by this. S10 and s9 was MoC influence. S8?

I think people were just bracing themselves for pointless conflict. It's generally the show's go-to to create tension. I think people are just pleasantly surprised they didn't string this along for a bunch of episodes to end up with another huge fight between them in the end. 

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Also, I kind of wish we had seen the back-to-back fights instead of this one Hellhound fight. I mean, if they didn't even have a chance to clean up between cases, when were they sleeping or eating? How were they even launching RIGHT into fight after fight, without doing any investigative work in between?

Yeah, this was my problem with the opening sequence too. I'm not one who thinks Dean is a neat freak, although I don't think he'd be cool with walking around with goo in hair, but it's just incredulous they drove all the way back to the bunker like that. I mean, they don't take bathroom breaks anymore or have to stop for gas?

I think the beginning would've been stronger if they'd showed a montage of them on the road and the back to back fights. And, the conversation would've made more sense if they were in the car instead of the bunker. Plus, the joke would've been funnier if Dean was really annoyed he was getting Baby all gooey. It would've also played better with the joke of Sam riding the brakes. I know, an actual through-line, blows the mind, don't it? ;)

I think the bigger problem for me with the show right now isn't just the writing, but it also appears the other parts aren't stepping up to help the writing. I'm not sure the writing is really any worse--okay, it probably is--but it used to feel like there was more a collaborative exchange of ideas between the departments that would help when the writing wasn't quite there. I'm not saying they're phoning it in--they're definitely showing up and working hard when they're there--they're just not doing anything they're not expressly asked to do anymore. I guess what I'm saying is, being a well-oiled machine doesn't mean it's a very creative machine.

Edited March 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

the joke would've been funnier if Dean was really annoyed he was getting Baby all gooey

I would have loved this!! These writers miss so many golden opportunities.  Also agree that "Lucille" would've worked better as an outtake for gag reel.

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think people were just bracing themselves for pointless conflict. It's generally the show's go-to to create tension. I think people are just pleasantly surprised they didn't string this along for a bunch of episodes to end up with another huge fight between them in the end. 

 I would agree if not for Deans lack of  anger at being lied to by Sam for  two weeks, about the same thing Mary spent months lying to the both of them about, is seen as  "character growth" for Dean. IMO, "Character growth "implies that Dean's anger over being lied to was  not a valid response in the first place, which it was.