“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[SueB]

49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I also have issues with how Dean was portrayed last season, I felt he was entirely too passive.   But at least he didn't lose his hunting skills.   But i was speaking only about this season.  As for the videographer, I'll don't feel comfortable speaking for her.    I perfer proactive proactive Dean, not reactive.  S11 was one of my least favorite (until this season) so its isn't just the last few episodes.  The last few episodes just comfirms my theory. Dabb has no interest in Dean.   I find it started last year and has been getting worse.    In his eps last year, Form and Void, 11.17, 11.10, all followed the pattern we see in the back half of this season.  Dean feeling like he's forced into episodes.  So I don't see it being plot reasons, but again MMV

Dean might have been a bad ass in First Blood but Dabb also made Dean be the one to crack and call Billy because 6 weeks of isolation is worse then hell. 

There is a difference between quieter and non-existent, and right now the need for Dean on screen feels non-existent, other than contract reasons. You can easily remove him from this season and not much would change.

Even if Dean wanted out of research, it doesn't explain why he suddenly lost his hunting skill

We can agree to disagree. 

I've heard people say this (in bold) and I just don't see it at all.  But I understand that's your POV.

[Aeryn13]

I think Dabb`s interest in Dean is to be the "weak and pathetic one" to Sam usually being super. Whenever Dabb can bring that motiv in, he does. As it stands now, Loflin was probably the Dean-friendly one of the writing pair. Too bad the show lost him and kept Dabb. 

As for Dean not being present in this Season, I totally agree. At least not since episode 12. He didn`t have a purpose before that but neither did anyone else and he still got his moments here and there so it looked relatively balanced. After Regarding Dean, holy crap, the character has been disappearing from screen despite being in episodes. Cas hasn`t been seen in a while and to me it feels exactly the same way with Dean. At least Cas can`t be an embassment on account of not actually being there.  

Even when Dean was demoted to glorified nursemaid in the second half of Season 8, it was still somewhat less embarassing then now. And it looks super-obvious in comparism to Sam at the moment. At this point, Dean would slip on a banana peel and knock himself unconscious in a fight (if he could find it) while Sam could tumble down the stairs, holding a pair of nail clippers and the bad guy would still dutifully impale themselves on it. Allthewhile Sam giving an inspirational speech to a second bad guy and convince them of the error of their ways while holding three helpless orphans. 

It`s like a lot less funnier version of one being cursed after losing the Rabbit`s foot and one holding it. Ongoing for the last couple of episodes.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

TBH, when we first got the spoiler that Sam wasn't going to look for Dean, I didn't feel like they were throwing Sam under the bus because I felt he show was going to tell us that Dean was wrong for being hurt by it, and in my opinion that is what happened.

I believe Carver meant for the audience to side with Sam. Singer gave an interview where he said Dean wasn't being fair to Sam.  Dean got the lecture in Southern Comfort about appreciating Sam.  Carver constantly referred to Sam as being mature. 

Except that they constantly had Sam do awful and immature things, and even lampshaded that Sam was being crappy with Kevin's voice mails from the very first episode. Nothing in the narrative to me showed that Sam was "mature" for running away and abandoning Kevin. Then they had Sam throw a jealous hissy fit (or whatever that was) about Benny... and proved Sam was wrong because Benny was good. Just because a show writer after the fact is implying "oh we were writing Sam as the mature one" doesn't mean I believe them when every thing I see on screen is the direct opposite of that. I'm going to think that he is trying to con and / or placate me.

As for Dean being shown as wrong for being hurt by what happened - I disagree, because Bobby pointed out the writer point of view in "Taxi Driver" - and it wasn't that Sam was right - and Benny was good, so again Dean was right. In my opinion, if a narrator is supposedly "siding" with a character, it would make sense that every once in a while, that character would turn out to be correct. To me that just makes logical sense.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Whereas Dean's text message was mentioned over and over. 

I thought I remembered it once or twice, but not with the regularity of say Sam raising Lucifer - which was brought up way more than that over multiple seasons. But then again, I hate season 8, so I admit that it might have been brought up more than the twice or so I remember. Although Dean bringing it up doesn't count as much for me, because Dean is an unreliable narrator at times - his guilt generally makes him blame himself more than he should.

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It was the same with s10 and the whole Lester thing (1), and Sam using the book of the Damned, and again with Sam forcing Dean to work the the Brits without his knowledge. (Imagine if the situation had been reversed, Dean would have been accused of taking away Sam's agency and being bossy and controlling).(2) With its all brushed under the carpet and labelled "character growth" for Dean that he doesn't get upset.   Plus, narrative framed s10 as Sam doing it because he didn't want to be without his brother and it was considered an act of brotherly love.(3)

1. In my opinion, the show tried to frame what Sam did concerning Lester as worse than what demon Dean did, trying to imply that Sam's actions as a human were worse than what demon Dean did.
2. Dean did "force" Sam to do things his way - in season 9 - and mostly, I don't remember Dean being called wrong or being bossy for doing so. I remember mostly Dean being called smart, because Sam would've just been a distraction or been in the way since Dean was the one with the MoC and the one with powers, so it was good that he got Sam out of harm's way and made all the decisions.
3. As for season 10, I don't think that I misinterpreted all of those warnings Sam got concerning trying to cure Dean, or the fact that he started an apocalypse, and that God specifically said it was Sam's clingy behavior that caused all of the problems, so I'm not seeing the show as condoning Sam's behavior here. But Miles vary.

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He was doing it for he same selfish reason Dean did, yet other characters were brought in support Sam's actions. He was given dialogue like, Dean's getting worse, or Dean's given up to create a false sense of urgency.  If it was prior to episode 13 I would have agreed with this, but after 13 I found that Dean figured out the way of control the mark was by his inner peace.  His level of violence was no more than what Cas and Sam were displaying.  But other people supported the tell, to reinforce Sam's actions. 

None of that suggests the writers wanted me to side with Dean,  MMV

But those are the same characters who told Sam that it was a bad idea and shouldn't do it. I thought they were brought in more to support the narrative that Sam is doing a very bad thing than to support that this was a good thing to do, so obviously miles vary there.

As for Dean not being more violent than what Sam and Cas were displaying, I'm not so sure about that. His vendetta against the Stynes I thought was a pretty good indication that Dean was getting worse, but again miles vary.

However, despite all of that with Dean being shown to get worse, the end result was the most telling for me on what the writers might be thinking: Dean's rash decision to kill Death to save Sam resulted in... no real harmful effects whatsoever and weirdly ended up helping in the end (of the next season)... because Billy being associated with and watching the brothers meant that she came in to play a key role in stopping the Darkness*, whereas Sam's rash decision in saving Dean by removing the mark resulted in starting an apocalypse. Personally I'm not seeing much evidence of the writers siding with Sam there myself - based on the results, I would say the opposite actually - but again obviously miles vary.

* Ironically, I'm almost positive I predicted this very kind of thing after the season 10 finale aired - i.e. that even though Sam started the apocalypse with his actions, that Dean killing Death would probably somehow end up being a good thing in contrast. Silly me thinking that I was only being semi-facetious, I mean it was the Carver years after all.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

As it stands now, Loflin was probably the Dean-friendly one of the writing pair. Too bad the show lost him and kept Dabb. 

I wouldn't have liked that exchange. The only episodes Loflin wrote alone were "Citizen Fang" - one of my most hated episodes ever (And it's for more than the blatant Sam character assassination. It's for, in my opinion, the almost soap opera like predictability of the plot, which was a waste of the potentially interesting characters and a bad rehash of "Metamorphosis.") - and "Remember the Titans" which I'm not remembering as being particularly pro-Dean... or in any way good either.

Whereas even though Dabb does write some Sam episodes, I think he's also written some good Dean-leaning ones, too, including: "Hunter Heroici," "Stairway to Heaven," "Reichenbach" (One I happen to enjoy a lot along with @catrox14, I believe), "The Prisoner," "Beyond the Mat," and "Alpha and Omega."

But I understand that miles vary, so I can agree to disagree.

Edited April 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[auntvi]

35 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ironically, I'm almost positive I predicted this very kind of thing after the season 10 finale aired - i.e. that even though Sam started the apocalypse with his actions, that Dean killing Death would probably somehow end up being a good thing in contrast. Silly me thinking that I was only being semi-facetious, I mean it was the Carver years after all.

I remember thinking and reading similar - I think I remember reading it here, so it must have been you ;)  I have a bad feeling that the change in the writers' treatment of Sam is temporary and that by the end of the season it will all end up being Sam's fault again.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I remember thinking and reading similar - I think I remember reading it here, so it must have been you ;)  I have a bad feeling that the change in the writers' treatment of Sam is temporary and that by the end of the season it will all end up being Sam's fault again.

I really don't see any logical or illogical way that Sam can be blamed for whatever the fallout  re the BMOL. That one should only fall on Mary's head. I think Sam had a mild interest because toys and data and Dean was all YAY Grenade Launcher but IMO Mary is really what got Sam to join for whatever reasons. Dean joined because Sam joined.

The only thing I can see that would make Sam be at fault is if he had some important piece of information that has not been disclosed and that he kept to himself.  If things are being played straight, and there are no gotchas afoot, I don't know what that would be. 

ETA: If there are gotchas I would hope they would only be to show the boys were on the ball but the show opted to keep it under wraps

Edited April 25, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really don't see any logical or illogical way that Sam can be blamed for whatever the fallout  re the BMOL.

I think it depends on exactly what happens between now and the end of the season. As of now, it's mostly Mary.  But, Mary didn't make Sam join up. And Sam didn't make Dean join up.  They're all responsible for their own decision to work with them, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really don't see any logical or illogical way that Sam can be blamed for whatever the fallout  re the BMOL.

I hope that you are right about that, catrox, because I didn't think it was very logical that Sam would say "Yay! Sign me up!" after the events of "The Raid" and not be doing it ironically or as an infiltrator - or even just to watch out for Mary - but apparently that's exactly what happened, so I don't know anymore. I was actually thinking things were making sense and the characters were being themselves until that episode... then things kind of went wonky after that.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

because I didn't think it was very logical that Sam would say "Yay! Sign me up!" after the events of "The Raid" and not be doing it ironically or as an infiltrator

Taking my reply to all seasons.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it depends on exactly what happens between now and the end of the season. As of now, it's mostly Mary.  But, Mary didn't make Sam join up. And Sam didn't make Dean join up.  They're all responsible for their own decision to work with them, IMO.

If this would have been Sam or Dean going to the BMOL each of his own accord or making totally separate independent decisions to join after getting the same spiel as Mary and Wally (RIP) got, without another family member leading them to that place, then I feel the "blame" would be more earned by Sam or Dean. 

There was emotional manipulation at play when Mary pitched Sam, IMO she knew what it would take to get to him to join. This came on the heels of their big blow out and Sam was already putting her at arms length. IMO she knew what she had to say to appeal to him to join. And IMO he wanted to remain close to her in whatever way he could get, so he joined.

Quote

Mary: Thanks for coming.
Sam: What's so urgent?
Mary: Sam, I messed up. I know I messed up. But what the British Men of Letters are doing, this is bigger than us, Sam. We've got a real shot here.
Sam: Shot at what?
Mary: A world without monsters. A world where you and Dean don't have to hunt, where you can have normal lives.
Sam: I chose this life.
Mary: I know. But you were going to school, to college. And I get why you gave it up. But what if you didn't have to? What if there was a different future for you, for us? That's why I'm doing this. That is what I'm fighting for. I am not trying to recruit you, but you need to know. Things are changing. Please.
Just let me show you. (Entering the compound) It's, uh, just in here.

But whatever shitty thing happens like hunters getting killed, IMO, still can't really be assigned to Sam or Dean because they apparently don't know  a hit list exists. Mary may not know either.  If they know such a list exists and didn't tell other hunters then yes that's on them. But thus far, despite Sam being tortured, he doesn't know or doesn't remember that's what they were trying to get out of him. 

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There was emotional manipulation at play when Mary pitched Sam, IMO she knew what it would take to get to him to join. This came on the heels of their big blow out and Sam was already putting her at arms length. IMO she knew what she had to say to appeal to him to join. And IMO he wanted to remain close to her in whatever way he could get, so he joined.

He still made the decision on his own.  I'm sorry, but I just can't ever place the blame on others for adults' decisions.  It's not like she even lied to him about anything at that point as far as we know.  Ditto, Dean.  If they were teenagers, OK.  Or, maybe, maybe, if she had told them that they had to join the BMOL or she would never speak to them again.  But, ASFAIK, Dean and Sam were the ones who cut her out when she said she joined up, not the other way around.  We, or they, have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have been able to have the same level of minimal contact that they've been having otherwise. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He still made the decision on his own.  I'm sorry, but I just can't ever place the blame on others for adults' decisions.  It's not like she even lied to him about anything at that point as far as we know.  Ditto, Dean.  If they were teenagers, OK.  Or, maybe, maybe, if she had told them that they had to join the BMOL or she would never speak to them again.  But, ASFAIK, Dean and Sam were the ones who cut her out when she said she joined up, not the other way around.  We, or they, have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have been able to have the same level of minimal contact that they've been having otherwise. 

The all made their own choices but I always factor mitigating circumstances into how these characters behave and why they come to the choices they do.  Family pressure can be really difficult for some people to manage even when you're 50 or 15. Family pushes those emotional buttons that unless IMO one is the most well adjusted, healthy person they won't be affected by it. And these guys are definitely NOT poster boys for good mental and emotional health. And neither is Mary for that matter,

 

Neither of them had any idea she was working with the BMOL until after the debacle at Ramiel's farm. They didn't know until after that when she showed up to the  LOL with beer and burgers.  Dean didn't cut her out for joining them in and of itself. He gave her the boot:

 -- because she lied to them for months about it
-- Her lies and obfuscation of the truth of her mission nearly got Cas killed and did get Wally killed
-- And it became clear that she had little to no interest in maintaining a legitimate relationship with the boys. 
It was bad enough that the people she's working with tried to kill the boys and tortured Sam but I suppose even that COULD have been a malleable position for  them IF she had come to them right away after she joined up. But by the time she confessed, it was almost too late for her

[rue721]

Moved my reply:

Edited April 25, 2017 by rue721
Moved to another thread

[auntvi]

I watched Blade Runners (9.16) tonight with commentary from Buckner/Ross-Leming and Mark Sheppard. Mark was interesting, of course and asked them several questions about their writing process.  I got the impression they were much more interested in writing for Crowley than the boys. Buckner referred to Sam & Dean as bozos, and commented later that “every once in a while they really know what they’re doing.”  
R-L says that Mark “spices up” the set whenever he’s there. She went on about how Mark was much more fun to write for - more fun than who wasn’t specified.

Quote

ER-L: “What we loved about this scene in writing it was, we like to write words and you’re [Mark] really good with words……some actors are better with words and you can give them a lot of words and they can make them all interesting and not be just a laundry list. [all laugh heartily]

I agree that Mark is good and fun to watch, especially when he chews the scenery. He may well be the best actor on the show, but he's not a lead and it seemed rude that B/R-L had so little to say about Jensen (he has some good sarcastic faces) and nothing about Jared.

B/R-L loved the cougar character they wrote. “The other cadre of writers” who apparently had some concerns about that scene, just didn’t get it, “didn’t understand what we were going for.” It was just a joke. They both think that the MoL story line is just wonderful.

Later both B and R-L raved about how good the actor who played Cuthbert Sinclair was and made it look easy. They also thought that Snooki did a great job. What?!  Mark did compliment J & J on their work in the last scene with Cuthbert Sinclair.

My impression was that B/R-L are very impressed with themselves and much prefer writing complex myth arc episodes but aren’t interested in writing character for Sam and Dean. I'm not surprised about that, but I was surprised by how snotty they both seemed. Such a contrast with, for example, Ben Edlund, Adam Glass and Sera Gamble, who all sounded excited about the show during their commentary.

Edited April 27, 2017 by auntvi

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, auntvi said:

My impression was that B/R-L are very impressed with themselves and much prefer writing complex myth arc episodes but aren’t interested in writing character for Sam and Dean. I'm not surprised about that, but I was surprised by how snotty they both seemed. Such a contrast with, for example, Ben Edlund, Adam Glass and Sera Gamble, who all sounded excited about the show during their commentary.

I have a serious annoyance with Lemming-Ross in particular. I don't know what it is, but she rubs me the wrong way every time she opens her mouth. They both seem to really be out of step with everyone else, IMO.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I have a serious annoyance with Lemming-Ross in particular. I don't know what it is, but she rubs me the wrong way every time she opens her mouth. They both seem to really be out of step with everyone else, IMO.

Ah yes. Eugenia.  She strikes me as someone who was edgy 30 years ago.  And now her notion of the role of audience vs writers is outdated.  She strikes me as someone who see herself as the 'ar-teeest' and her vision is the only vision that matters.  She and Brad have said they watch THEIR episodes.  So, I imagine there is an attempt to have continuity (in their head) from B-L to B-L (only) episodes.  To be fair, I think they've been forced to take on huge Point A to Point B leaps by the showrunners.  So they get the dirty work. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Ah yes. Eugenia.  She strikes me as someone who was edgy 30 years ago.  

She strikes me as someone who THINKS she was edgy 30 years ago. 

[FlickChick]

Reading the above comments re Buck/Leming only solidifies my distaste for their writing. And to think they are actually stupid enough to gloat about watching only THEIR episodes is beyond reprehensible. Yes, Mark is an accomplished actor, but to make it so obvious that they prefer writing for him vs the show's stars, sort of says it all, doesn't it? :(

[DeeDee79]

On 4/25/2017 at 8:54 AM, ILoveReading said:

Dabb has no interest in Dean.

I agree with you due to the fact that since he has become showrunner Dean as a character has seemed very muted this season as compared to others. MMV and before anyone says it it's not because of supposed anguish over Sam having more plot/kills/smarts than Dean.

[Wayward Son]

This isn't "bitch vs jerk" but it does match the "who the writers have screwed over" description... 

In my opinion there is one character who these writers have screwed more than any other! Who their actions against makes anything against the brothers look minor and that's Castiel.

 

Can we seriously not get ONE, just one bloody season without them making him a screw up and the worst friend who ever lived. Lucifer!Cas and now this.... Team Dabb's treatment of Castiel has now just reached a level where it rivals Team Gamble's in my eyes. Screwing him over once (Lucifer Cas) was an allowable exception, two for two is a pattern. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This isn't "bitch vs jerk" but it does match the "who the writers have screwed over" description... 

In my opinion there is one character who these writers have screwed more than any other! Who their actions against makes anything against the brothers look minor and that's Castiel.

 

Can we seriously not get ONE, just one bloody season without them making him a screw up and the worst friend who ever lived. Lucifer!Cas and now this.... Team Dabb's treatment of Castiel has now just reached a level where it rivals Team Gamble's in my eyes. Screwing him over once (Lucifer Cas) was an allowable exception, two for two is a pattern. 

IMO, we are ON that Cas is winning arc right now.  

[companionenvy]

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

IMO, we are ON that Cas is winning arc right now.  

I agree.

Wayward, I agree with you that Cas is WAY overdue for a win. The reason I'm willing to reserve judgment, however, is that the show is obviously aware of it, and seems to be setting him up for a "Cas was right and gets to be the hero" arc. Because of the way the episode was written, I think that Lucifer's baby is going to be good, and Cas will be key in protecting and guiding him. 

If not, I will gloomily join you on the bitterness train. 

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree with you due to the fact that since he has become showrunner Dean as a character has seemed very muted this season as compared to others. MMV and before anyone says it it's not because of supposed anguish over Sam having more plot/kills/smarts than Dean.

I'm starting to think its more than just no interest, and its actual dislike of the character.  No way its not deliberate at this point.

Dean doesn't research anymore, he can't fight or hold on to a weapon, and he's the only character who didn't get to fire the colt.

Edited April 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm starting to think its more than just no interest, and its actual dislike of the character.  No way its not deliberate at this point.

Dean doesn't research anymore, he can't fight or hold on to a weapon, and he's the only character who didn't get to fire the colt.

Yup, more of the same this week.

[AwesomO4000]

43 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Wayward, I agree with you that Cas is WAY overdue for a win.

Castiel did get a win in season 9 though, and it was a pretty big one. And that came off the heels of a season 7 redemption arc.

Sam on the other hand, hasn't had a real win that I can recall since season 5's* finale, despite having caused the Darkness problem at the end of season 10.

I agree that Cas' character has had his share of screwing up, but he does generally at least get to get some redemption for it. Most recently for Sam, he failed to finish the trials in season 8, was knocked out before the fight and failed to save Dean in season 9, failed to kill Crowley and caused the Darkness in season 10, and got outsmarted by Rowena and Lucifer in season 11.

Not that I didn't like seasons 10 and 11 mind you, but I do think that Sam is due for a win. Or more specifically a big win. He has been killing off some bad guys recently... but I'm worried it's a buttering up to another mistake.

* I suppose Sam's helping to stop the distribution of the tainted creamer in season 7 might count as a medium-sized win, but the fact that it happened offscreen sort of lessens the effect a bit.

Edited April 28, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[companionenvy]

Awesom04000, you know I agree with you that Sam's hero to goat proportion has been in favor of goat for way too long, but so far, this season has gone a long way toward rectifying that, even if he doesn't get the big kill.

Sam's kills this year haven't been "big" in a narrative sense, in that they occur in the context of one-off episodes rather than as the end of a long-term arc plot. But within the world of SPN, both the Alpha Vamp and Yellow Eyes Mark 2 are really big kills. So it won't bother me if Dean turns out to be the one who takes out Ketch, or even if he puts the final (final) nail in Lucifer's coffin - although I wouldn't be surprised if Mary killed Ketch, and Luci lived to bore me for another season. 

What I think makes Cas's hero to goat proportion even worse to me is that he isn't involved in all that many one-off, MOtW episodes. So, in a given season, even if Sam isn't getting the big win -- and even when he's making some colossal mistakes -- he is getting his share of saves and good plans. Cas is usually more tied to the arc plot, so if his intervention in that plot goes wrong, there isn't as much to compensate. In Season 11, for instance, Sam was shown to be wrong in believing God was talking to him, which contributed to Lucifer getting out of the cage, and wound up taking a support role in the finale (despite having caused the Apocalypse of the season) - but he was also saving people and hunting things throughout. Whereas Cas made a risky choice that turned out poorly, and hence spent a good chunk of the season as Casifer. 

There's also the problem of the disconnect between how powerful Cas is supposed to be and how ineffective he often winds up being. I get whiplash trying to keep track of what powers he is supposed to have when, but he hasn't been totally depowered for a while now. Yet, he still can't stop Charlie from leaving the bunker and getting herself killed, or, more recently, figure out where Sam and Dean are being kept by a bunch of humans or, apparently, complete a basic hunt on his own. I don't want deus ex Cas, but if the show wasn't going to commit to keeping him human, you can't make him so woefully incompetent in situations where one would think angelic power, even in somewhat reduced form, would come in handy.

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Why You Should Watch: Former “Stargate SG-1” actress Amanda Tapping directed the new episode “The Future,” a title that pertains to Lucifer’s (Mark Pelligrino) baby — whose potential actions concern Sam (Jared Padalecki). At the same time, Kelly (guest star Courtney Ford) is the focus of Castiel’s (Misha Collins) efforts, but she has her own agenda and plans to implement it. Jensen Ackles also stars.

A description of tonights episode from an online site.

Kind of sums up the season. Sam, Cas.....the other guy

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

A description of tonights episode from an online site.

Kind of sums up the season. Sam, Cas.....the other guy

Let's not forget Cas has only starred in two of the last seven episodes and his appearance in 12x15 was hardly anything. Then there's the fact 

Spoiler

He won't appear again until 12x23 making his appearances a grand total of 3 out of 11 of the second half episodes. 

It's more like Sam, that other guy and the angel who we must make screw up and betray the brothers at every turn because he's useless and we hate him. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Let's not forget Cas has only starred in two of the last seven episodes and his appearance in 12x15 was hardly anything. Then there's the fact 

  Reveal hidden contents

He won't appear again until 12x23 making his appearances a grand total of 3 out of 11 of the second half episodes. 

It's more like Sam, that other guy and the angel who we must make screw up and betray the brothers at every turn because he's useless and we hate him. 

Given the way they've written Dean for the majority of the season, I would have preferred Dean be off screen

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Given the way they've written Dean for the majority of the season, I would have preferred Dean be off screen

Me too. Being physically offscreen appears to be a lot less embarassing than whatever the hell this thing with Dean is. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

This isn't "bitch vs jerk" but it does match the "who the writers have screwed over" description... 

In my opinion there is one character who these writers have screwed more than any other! Who their actions against makes anything against the brothers look minor and that's Castiel.

 

Can we seriously not get ONE, just one bloody season without them making him a screw up and the worst friend who ever lived. Lucifer!Cas and now this.... Team Dabb's treatment of Castiel has now just reached a level where it rivals Team Gamble's in my eyes. Screwing him over once (Lucifer Cas) was an allowable exception, two for two is a pattern. 

While I agree with you that Cass has been totally mishandled and underutilized over the years, I'm not convinced he's getting screwed over this time. Maybe I'm just being naive, but I think the show is lulling us into a false sense of security, not only with Cass but with Sam and Dean too. Although, While I would've preferred Cass not just disappear with Kelly like he did, but instead let Sam and Dean know what he knows, I think Cass might turn out to be in the right this time...sort of...maybe...perhaps...possibly...ah shit! ;)

[catrox14]

Look, I know I bitch about the dumb!Dean, mean!Dean characterizations  but in general Dean's hunting/fighting skills are typically not shoved to the side like they have been this season.  I realize not everyone thinks anything is off with Dean but IMO he seems to be a day late and a dollar short on every thing post killing Hitler, post prison break, post Regarding Dean.  

If I thought the show was more clever than I believe it is, I would think all of this is Dean still being affected by the memory spell. That maybe he wasn't entirely cured and his reactions are off or slow. Alternately, maybe he's so consumed with worry and fear about Mary and Cas that it's causing him to be a day late and a dollar short. I'm concerned this is going to end up with Dean being a day late and a dollar short such that  someone he loves is going to be killed and he'll decide that his hunting days are over.  Because otherwise I just don't get what they are doing with Dean other than keeping him on screen, to keep Dean fans interested and rehabbing Sam and Cas and propping Mary.

I just do not get it.

I'm thinking this is a result of the pendulum swinging too far in the interest the ongoing rehabbing of Sam's characterization even though I think he was pretty well rehabbed by the end of s11 but maybe not.

[Aeryn13]

Yeah, like, look at this episode. You see Sam alone doing all the research and then explaining it to Dean. You see Dean getting fooled by Cas and losing the Colt through his own stupidity twice over basically but Sam is smart enough to do the tracking. You see Sam coming up with the plan and answers all over the place while Dean just sits there dumbfounded. If this last 8 or so episodes were the only exposure I ever had of Dean, I would think he is really slow, gullibe and unimaginative. I mean, he doesn`t seem able to come up with anything.

And physically, he isn`t holding his own either. Sam saved Cas by shooting at Dagon. Why not at least both? Nope, the scene was once again shot as if Dean wasn`t there - until he appeared and spectacularly failed again. He got captured and damseled last episode because, again, he couldn`t tell his head from his ass hunting-wise. The episodes before that he didn`t even show up for the relevant actions. 

Meanwhile Sam does every little thing hunting-wise in every single episode. He comes up with all the answers AND does the physical part. By himself.

It`s never been that lopsided before.

The only thing Dean has been shown to be able to do in several episodes has been to repair a car. Woohoo, give him a cookie. 

I miss the Dean that contributed something relevant to the hunting job in an episode. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The only thing Dean has been shown to be able to do in several episodes has been to repair a car. Woohoo, give him a cookie. 

Speaking of that, I was kind of annoyed that Sam reacted with surprise to Dean fixing the car. As if Dean WOULDN'T be able to fix the truc? I mean if Dean gets NOTHING else ever in this show at minimum he is an accomplished mechanic. Or let's say that was supposed to be Sam's 'impressed' why the hell would Sam react either way to that task being accomplished. Sam doesn't need to provide an approval face of  Dean fixing a car.  That really bothered me more than just about anything else in the episode.

Sigh.   

[ILoveReading]

I know this is nitpicky and it normally wouldn't have even registered but given the way the season is going it stood out like a sore thumb. 

Dean is the one we've seen put in the effort with Cas.  It was him trying to call, checking jails and morgues making all the effort to find Cas.  When Cas shows up in Dean's room, the dialogue makes sure to include Sam, but having Dean say "We were worried."  I'm not saying Sam wouldn't be worried but even without showing anything they made sure to include Sam, implying that he may be doing it off screen.

We see Sam doing all research and coming up with all the ideas.  When Cas asks, what they should do , Dean specifically says "Sam is working on it."  So what has Dean been doing all this time.  Not "We're working it" to show Dean is contributing, even off screen.  Nope, just Sam and only Sam .  Maybe that memory spell finally erased Dean's ability to read. 

Even in the episode next week, the synopsis says its, not really a spoiler but tagging incase

Spoiler

Sam that answers Mary's phone

I know that its a very unimportant thing, but at this point its like when a person is having a very bad day and even the minor stupid little things seem irritating. 

It's not making either character fun to watch. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking this is a result of the pendulum swinging too far in the interest the ongoing rehabbing of Sam's characterization even though I think he was pretty well rehabbed by the end of s11 but maybe not.

I think a large part is that since neither brother has a direct tie to the major mythology arc, they're over compensating by giving Sam, Dean's usual role on the show, but as you said it so lope sided its looking like every writer is taking it as a personal challenge to try and prevent Dean from having a significant role in every episode.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We see Sam doing all research and coming up with all the ideas.  When Cas asks, what they should do , Dean specifically says "Sam is working on it."  So what has Dean been doing all this time.  Not "We're working it" to show Dean is contributing, even off screen.  Nope, just Sam and only Sam .  Maybe that memory spell finally erased Dean's ability to read. 

I got the feeling Dean wasn't doing the research because Dean thought there was no need to do research. I don't think he believes there's another way and has resigned himself to having to do the hard thing--kill the kid--when it comes down to it.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I got the feeling Dean wasn't doing the research because Dean thought there was no need to do research. I don't think he believes there's another way and has resigned himself to having to do the hard thing--kill the kid--when it comes down to it.

That doesn't sound like Dean.  Rresearch may not be Dean's favorite thing but he is more than capable and if Dean saw Sam burning himself out he wouldn't sit back and let Sam do it all.  

 He's the one whose usually saying that they will find another way.   One of my favorite Dean traits is him coming up without out of the box solutions.  If Dean had that attitude Zacheriah and Eve would still be walking around.  If there was any situation that called for an out of the box solution it would be this, and Dean should be contributing. 

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That doesn't sound like Dean.  Rresearch may not be Dean's favorite thing but he is more than capable and if Dean saw Sam burning himself out he wouldn't sit back and let Sam do it all.  

 He's the one whose usually saying that they will find another way.   One of my favorite Dean traits is him coming up without out of the box solutions.  If Dean had that attitude Zacheriah and Eve would still be walking around.  If there was any situation that called for an out of the box solution it would be this, and Dean should be contributing. 

That isn't necessarily always the case. There have been several occasions when Dean (and usually the rest of the team) have become resigned to their faith and it is Sam who keeps faith and motivates the others into being strong again. Think back to Point of No Return when he is the only one who continues to hope they can stop the apocalypse, or more recently Alpha and Omega when everyone (including Dean and Guck) except Sam admit defeat and become resigned to their fates. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

That isn't necessarily always the case. There have been several occasions when Dean (and usually the rest of the team) have become resigned to their faith and it is Sam who keeps faith and motivates the others into being strong again. Think back to Point of No Return when he is the only one who continues to hope they can stop the apocalypse, or more recently Alpha and Omega when everyone (including Dean and Guck) except Sam admit defeat!

I'm not saying that Sam have never done that, but Dean is usually proactive.    Even in Point of No Return when he last faith he still tried to do something.  He just didn't sit back.  He thought he could stop things by saying yes to Michael.

Right now it feels like Dean doesn't care about anything.  As I've said repeatedly, I kept hoping it was tied to something or there would be some kind of pay off, but that hope is now completely extinguished and I belief its just Dabb's lack of interest. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s never been that lopsided before.

Not for Dean, no. But it has been, in my opinion for Sam. Despite the trials - well actually even including the trials if I think about it - most of season 8 had Sam woefully inept. He wasn't just "out of practice." He was sometimes laughably inept - as in "how is this guy a hunter?" inept. "As Time Goes By" is a good example. Sam easily taken hostage and later meekly standing there as he is traded for something potentially dangerous and having to be saved by Henry sacrificing himself. And then there was "Citizen Fang." First of all why did Sam even need a partner to keep an eye on one vampire? And could he have chosen a worse partner? Or screwed that hunt up any worse than he did? Nope, nope, and nope. Season 9 was just as bad. If "Sam" did any killing, it was usually Gadreel instead, since Sam was too busy getting himself knocked out... And I'm not even sure how Gadreel possessed Sam was also able to be possessed by a witch, but never mind, Gadreel was able to save the day when it was needed.

I don't remember the exact statistics (from Ditty? or was it Demented?), but I think Sam had maybe 3 episodes with kills all season in season 9, and that included kills with Dean. I think he had 1 or two on his own. In season 8 he had maybe 3 or 4.

So even though Dean is being shown as a little off his game lately - and I myself really do think it's because Dean is not all that happy with the BMoL situation and so it's showing up as this - at least he isn't being so inept as to be causing other people to get killed like Sam did in season 8. And during season 9, in addition to being woefully inept, Sam's "story" was mainly just him being possessed - which ended up being more about Gadreel than Sam - and then bitching about it. Sam himself had little to do with the main plot arc.

15 hours ago, companionenvy said:

So, in a given season, even if Sam isn't getting the big win -- and even when he's making some colossal mistakes -- he is getting his share of saves and good plans.

Well, sometimes. As my description above of Sam in seasons 8 and 9 show though, not always. In season 8, Sam managed to be a factor in at least two people getting killed due to his ineptness in monster of the week cases... that's not even including the apocalypse deaths that came in season 11 - which I guess the writers wrote in just because, since they really had no effect on the main plot. But for some reason they wanted to be sure to include a couple thousand deaths to be Sam's fault anyway.

I do agree with you that this year Sam has gotten some memorable kills though. I'm still hoping, like @DittyDotDot though, that Castiel will be able to have some positive impact with the current story.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam easily taken hostage and later meekly standing there as he is traded for something potentially dangerous and having to be saved by Henry sacrificing himself.

By a knight of Hell.  Honestly, when these guys punch out demons, it drives me crazy.  But, anyway, Abaddon is more powerful than the average demon, so I don't think it's odd that she could overpower one little human.  And he "stood there meekly" because she was holding him ther with her power.

 

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And then there was "Citizen Fang." First of all why did Sam even need a partner to keep an eye on one vampire?

Because, he wasn't in the same place as Benny. He was hunting with Dean.

 

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Or screwed that hunt up any worse than he did?

He actually didn't do anything, because dean tricked him off the hunt. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Not for Dean, no. But it has been, in my opinion for Sam. Despite the trials - well actually even including the trials if I think about it - most of season 8 had Sam woefully inept. 

In addition to getting the trial storyline to begin with, Sam killed the Hellhound where Dean was inept to do so. The next episode he figured out the case with Zeus and the Gods where Dean had no idea about anything. Same for the one after that. The second trial, Sam hop-skipped through Purgatory and even managed a monster kill, all while already physically weakened. And he rescued Bobby. And the Bobby in Sam`s head certainly later tells Dean how little (aka nothing) Dean contributed to that. Sam saved the day in the ep with Dean and Charlie in that videogame scenario. He would have completed the third trial and held his own against Abaddon.

I WISH Dean was as inept as that right now. Seriously, I do.

Meanwhile during the trials Dean made soup, gave Sam an ice-bath and was told to be a good boy and step aside for the trials. And right now he can`t come up with a single original thought, gets fooled and knocked out easily and does nothing of worth. Oh, yeah, menial labor with the car. 

Quote

So even though Dean is being shown as a little off his game lately

A little? I can`t remember a single time during the show when Sam didn`t do anything during the hunt. Not one moment of either smarts or physicality. And that for what amounts to now a good third of the Season. IMO they never depicted Sam as embarassing as they do Dean right now. And they never will because Dabb apparently likes Super!Sam. 

Quote

 I don't think he believes there's another way and has resigned himself to having to do the hard thing--kill the kid--when it comes down to it.

In that case, good luck to him because he is portrayed as such a loser right now, even a baby could easily defeat him.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

To elaborate further on my previous post in my opinion in a game of who did the writers screw most "bitch vs jerk vs feathers" feathers is the one who would win EVERY time. Last night was the straw that broke this Castiel fan's back and I now want Misha / Cas written off the show before Dabb!Gamble (as I now call him when discussing his involvement with Cas) has a chance to do much more damage to my beloved Angel..

Here is a brief summary of the terrible way the writers have been handling his character since the beginning of s6. 

• During season six Gamble and her team of writers made Castiel the primary antagonist of the season. His time as such involved him; lying to the brothers, manipulating them, raising Sam from the dead and breaking Sam's wall. The season climaxes with him ignoring the brothers plea and gobbling down all the souls from purgatory. 
• Then in season seven we open with Castiel becoming darker and something of a heavenly despot. The slaughter of hundreds maybe thousands lie in his wake. Ultimately, he begins to realise this and  tries to banish the souls back where they came from, but he fails in stopping the unleashing of the Levithians. 
• If this were any other character now would be the time to begin his redemption arc, but that does not happen in season seven. Instead Gamble feels it is important to "kill him off" in a dirty old lake and leave him gone for fifteen episodes. When he does return he initially lacks his memory, but ultimately regain them.  After that it is not long until he's shoved into a mental hospifal instead of being allowed to atone for his actions and spends his days talking about bees and nudity. He is given half a win when he plays a minor role in the demise of Dick Roman. 
• In season eight the trend of denying Castiel an opportunity to atone continues. He speaks of being suicidal only for it to never be mentioned again. Furthermore, he talks about wanting to fix the damage he wrought to heaven by returning up there. Is he allowed to do that? Hell No, instead he spends half the season under another's control, which included the death of Samandriel. Then when he does get his memories back it is not long until he has unwittingly collaborated in a spell to banish all the angels from heaven. 
• So not only has Cas never been given space to truly atone for his actions throughout season six, but he has caused a whole new set of problems! 
• Admittedly, seasons nine and ten were a bit better as I can't think of any major things he did wrong then. 
• Then  Dabb comes along and decided to take a leaf out of the Sera Gamble play book hence my new description of him as Dabb!Gamble. In two seasons he has had Cas unleash a villain whose presence is still very felt over a season and a half later.  In addition to this, he has lied, manipulated and stolen from the brothers along with other crimes listed below. 

As I said the straw that broke the camels back has occurred. I've seen three show runners and numerous writers over the years and yet despite my hopes it always stays the same. I'v now just accepted there will never be a good Castiel season. That is why I'm eager for Misha to just leave now rather than stick around for whatever horririble decision they want him to make it next. 

 

19 hours ago, SueB said:

IMO, we are ON that Cas is winning arc right now.  

 

19 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree.

Wayward, I agree with you that Cas is WAY overdue for a win. The reason I'm willing to reserve judgment, however, is that the show is obviously aware of it, and seems to be setting him up for a "Cas was right and gets to be the hero" arc. Because of the way the episode was written, I think that Lucifer's baby is going to be good, and Cas will be key in protecting and guiding him. 

If not, I will gloomily join you on the bitterness train. 

 

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

While I agree with you that Cass has been totally mishandled and underutilized over the years, I'm not convinced he's getting screwed over this time. Maybe I'm just being naive, but I think the show is lulling us into a false sense of security, not only with Cass but with Sam and Dean too. Although, While I would've preferred Cass not just disappear with Kelly like he did, but instead let Sam and Dean know what he knows, I think Cass might turn out to be in the right this time...sort of...maybe...perhaps...possibly...ah shit! ;)

 

See for me though it's not overly important whether Castiel gets the win or not. Even if he is proven right it doesn't change his characterisation in this episode. Whether he is right or wrong Castiel has still;

 

1. Went to heaven behind the brothers back.
2. Proven himself to be a rubbish and inconsiderate friend by deliberately ignoring Dean's messages. 
3. Lied to Dean and Sam. 
4. Used their familial regard for him to manipulate them. 
5. Stolen from them  several times. He personally stole the Colt, while he aided in the theft of the impala through inaction. As Castiel himself admitted he could have easily stopped her. 
6. Knocked the brothers out and left both of them in a potentially dangerous situation. 

So it doesn't matter whether he is right or not IMO they've already written hims as an awful friend. 

17 hours ago, companionenvy said:

What I think makes Cas's hero to goat proportion even worse to me is that he isn't involved in all that many one-off, MOtW episodes. So, in a given season, even if Sam isn't getting the big win -- and even when he's making some colossal mistakes -- he is getting his share of saves and good plans. Cas is usually more tied to the arc plot, so if his intervention in that plot goes wrong, there isn't as much to compensate. In Season 11, for instance, Sam was shown to be wrong in believing God was talking to him, which contributed to Lucifer getting out of the cage, and wound up taking a support role in the finale (despite having caused the Apocalypse of the season) - but he was also saving people and hunting things throughout. Whereas Cas made a risky choice that turned out poorly, and hence spent a good chunk of the season as Casifer. 

Agreed! And this is a good point! When Sam messes something up we get to see him in his day to day life. We get to see him trying to atone for his past and continue Saving people. By contrast Castiel is allowed maybe one episode to redeem himself before everything is swept under the blanket and they start building towards his next mistake. 

 

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Given the way they've written Dean for the majority of the season, I would have preferred Dean be off screen

 

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Me too. Being physically offscreen appears to be a lot less embarassing than whatever the hell this thing with Dean is. 

 

But see my bitching isn't just about his absence, but it's also about the way they write him on the few occasions he does appear on screen. During Between Heaven and Hell he was sidelined to a handful of boring scenes which culminated in him disappearing off without so much as a words to his adopted family. Then this weeks episode happened and he did all the things I've listed above. 

So yes I think Castiel has had a much rougher time than Dean this last half season. Sure he may not be getting in on the action much, but at least they aren't actively portraying him as a manipulator who steals from the ones he claims to love. At least Dean has been allowed to maintain some dignity and not become a traitor to his loved ones. 

[FlickChick]

I agree with much of what you said here, @Wayward Son, and it is so sad to see such a talented actor being used in such a fashion. Everyone (usually) wants their favorite character to be a hero - not a scapegoat.  This season is truly awful - I just don't know what else to say about all of it. :(

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So yes I think Castiel has had a much rougher time than Dean this last half season. Sure he may not be getting in on the action much, but at least they aren't actively portraying him as a manipulator who steals from the ones he claims to love. At least Dean has been allowed to maintain some dignity and not become a traitor to his loved ones. 

While I don`t think the writers have done anything even approaching a good job with Cas this Season - it is the usual jumbled mess - and his characterization in the last episode wasn`t flattering, it depends on what you consider a deal-breaker in terms of stripping a character of their dignity.

For instance, I can deal with darkness, murder and betrayal. Even outright villain stuff. Depending on the outcome. Whereas my dealbreakers are being weak, dumb and/or useless. Those are the kind of comic relief characters that just put me off. I need a character I can take seriously. Even the villain.

I wasn`t happy with what Cas did but at least he accomplished something so to me he has kept his dignity. Dean, not so much. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

And he "stood there meekly" because she was holding him ther with her power.

I'll give you that. But he could have said something. Objected to what was happening. Tried to fight. Something.

And one of the reasons Sam was taken hostage in the first place is because he blurted out that Dean had the key in front of the former Man of Letter's wife and she was possessed by Abaddon who then overheard. Rookie mistake in actually saying where the key was, in my opinion anyway. He should've lied and said they didn't have it yet or something vague like that.

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

He actually didn't do anything, because dean tricked him off the hunt.

Sam did so much wrong, in my opinion. (And I say that as a Sam fan). Choosing Martin as a hunting partner in the first place and having him follow Benny around behind Dean's back was already pretty questionable if you ask me, but then Sam let Dean be hit over the head - hard enough that blood was involved - and handcuffed by Martin... and if that didn't send up signal flags about Martin being questionable or at least that Martin might not follow Sam's lead, Sam's instincts aren't very good. Listening to crazy Martin over Dean's instincts already wasn't a good thing. And then Sam went driving off after Dean's text, leaving Martin in the middle of the hunt without even a word. Not even a call from the road to warn Martin off the hunt or to follow up on what was going on. Sam just left his out of practice, recently crazy hunting partner in the middle of a hunt in the woods with potential vampires around. Completely inept. Or completely nonchalant about someone else's safety. Either one is bad, in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The next episode he figured out the case with Zeus and the Gods where Dean had no idea about anything.(1) Same for the one after that.(2) The second trial, Sam hop-skipped through Purgatory and even managed a monster kill, all while already physically weakened. And he rescued Bobby. (3) And the Bobby in Sam`s head certainly later tells Dean how little (aka nothing) Dean contributed to that. Sam saved the day in the ep with Dean and Charlie in that videogame scenario.(4) He would have completed the third trial and held his own against Abaddon.(5)

1. Well, of course Dean had no idea, because Sam shouldn't have either. That episode totally screwed up the myths concerning those gods. Artemis wasn't known to be with Prometheus. She was mostly known for being a virgin. So Loflin pulled that one out of nowhere so Sam guessing that Prometheus cared about Artemis made no sense. (If Loflin wanted to go with the real myth or do an interesting twist on it: Prometheus was saved by Hercules... Loflin could've been creative and had a female Hercules or a daughter or female descendant of Hercules or something interesting like that.) So I'm not really counting that as an impressive win there. Just my opinion on that one though.
2. Sam didn't do anything impressive that I recall in that episode ("Goodbye Stranger"). He got saved by Castiel from a demon and stood around outside chatting with Meg and then just let her get killed by Crowley. So not much there. And if you meant "Freaks and Geeks," in that one Sam ended up a hostage tied to a chair again.
3. I'll give you that one, but it wasn't nearly as impressive as any of Dean's Purgatory flashbacks, in my opinion anyway. And considering after one purgatory monster kill, Benny had to come along and save Sam's ass, it's not so impressive, for me anyway.
4. Well it was a kid that Sam was besting. And Dean did a bunch of his own kicking ass in that one, too.
5. I'll give you that one, too with an assist from Crowley who provided a distraction.

And there's still season 9. And the fact that Sam's ineptness helped get at least two people killed in season 8.

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

• During season six Gamble and her team of writers made Castiel the primary antagonist of the season. His time as such involved him; lying to the brothers, manipulating them, raising Sam from the dead and breaking Sam's wall. The season climaxes with him ignoring the brothers plea and gobbling down all the souls from purgatory. 
• Then in season seven we open with Castiel becoming darker and something of a heavenly despot. The slaughter of hundreds maybe thousands lie in his wake. Ultimately, he begins to realise this and  tries to banish the souls back where they came from, but he fails in stopping the unleashing of the Levithians. 
• If this were any other character now would be the time to begin his redemption arc, but that does not happen in season seven. Instead Gamble feels it is important to "kill him off" in a dirty old lake and leave him gone for fifteen episodes. When he does return he initially lacks his memory, but ultimately regain them.  After that it is not long until he's shoved into a mental hospifal instead of being allowed to atone for his actions and spends his days talking about bees and nudity. He is given half a win when he plays a minor role in the demise of Dick Roman. 

I see this a bit differently than you do. Yes, Castiel was one of the primary (sort of) antagonists of the season, but his reasoning wasn't that unlike Sam's reasoning in season 4. Also Castiel did figure out the error of his ways and tried to get the souls back into purgatory even though he thought that that would kill him. He didn't know that the leviathans would hang on. Cas also got some redemption - in my opinion anyway - when he sacrificed himself to fix Sam. The reason Castiel went crazy was because he took on Sam's affliction. For me, there was redemption in that. And Cas played more than a minor role in killing Dick Roman, in my opinion. In addition to holding Dick Roman for Dean to stab, Cas provided an important part of the weapon with his blood, and most importantly made sure that they had the right Dick Roman to kill. And Cas was the only one who could see the real Dick Roman. They absolutely couldn't have killed Dick Roman without Castiel.

So for me I wouldn't say that Castiel had no redemption in season 7. He was able to both make things right with Sam by sacrificing himself to cure Sam and to play an important role in killing Dick Roman.

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Admittedly, seasons nine and ten were a bit better as I can't think of any major things he did wrong then.

But not only did Castiel not do any major things wrong, he actually saved the world at the end of season 9. Castiel was the main reason that Metatron didn't succeed in his plans to rule over the angels and cause global destruction. Castiel figured out where the tablet was and destroyed Metatron's god powers and he also found a smart way to let the other angels know what Metatron had been planning so his hold over them would be broken. For me that was a good amount of redemption for season 8.

Now having said all of that, I don't disagree with you that Castiel is often given story arcs where he makes mistakes. He and Sam are both afflicted with that.

[denise42]

Does anyone know how to contact Andrew Dabb the showrunner on Supernatural.  I know he is on twitter but I don’t know how to do twitter.

Can anyone think of how we can contact someone, and tell them how the fans are feeling.  We need more Sam and Dean not less, the show is all about Sam and Dean and not the guest stars.  Last nights episode they weren’t in it very much at all, I was most disappointed.

The show is losing a large number of its fans and we need to contact someone and let them know what the fans want.  Before the writers start writing again.

[Aeryn13]

In general the writers are aware of fan sentiment, no matter what it may be. Their social media (or more old-fashioned fan-mail) are the place they gather that. In the past at least they were aware of some fan forums. But none of this means that they are beholden to viewer opinions. They can do what they want pretty much. Until the show is cancelled. That is just the reality of TV (and films) everywhere.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And one of the reasons Sam was taken hostage in the first place is because he blurted out that Dean had the key in front of the former Man of Letter's wife and she was possessed by Abaddon who then overheard. Rookie mistake in actually saying where the key was, in my opinion anyway. He should've lied and said they didn't have it yet or something vague like that.

I don't think that made much difference.  Abaddon knew one of the three had the key.  That raises an interesting question, though.  I don't remember. Did Dean have the key or did Henry?  Why would Henry have entrusted these people he didn't respect with the key?  Wouldn't he have taken it with him?

[MysteryGuest]

The end of the show is going to be sad for a lot of people, but it's inevitable.  Jensen and Jared aren't going to work longer hours, in fact they'll probably work even less next season.  Is it affecting ratings...absolutely.  I think the majority of fans tune in for Sam and Dean and when they're not on the screen, and the writing isn't good enough to make secondary characters interesting, people stop watching.  I had really hoped that they would go out with a bang, but that doesn't seem likely now.  I think the trend will continue, and the show will probably end next season.  

[DittyDotDot]

57 minutes ago, denise42 said:

Does anyone know how to contact Andrew Dabb the showrunner on Supernatural.  I know he is on twitter but I don’t know how to do twitter.

Can anyone think of how we can contact someone, and tell them how the fans are feeling.  We need more Sam and Dean not less, the show is all about Sam and Dean and not the guest stars.  Last nights episode they weren’t in it very much at all, I was most disappointed.

The show is losing a large number of its fans and we need to contact someone and let them know what the fans want.  Before the writers start writing again.

I think TPTB are well aware of fan sentiment. However, there are circumstances that hamper having more Sam and Dean onscreen. Mainly, Jared and Jensen seem to want to step back and not work as many hours as they did when they were single 20-somethings. Either the show has to adapt and evolve into a more ensemble piece or the show will have to end. They just can't maintain that constant focus on Sam and Dean anymore.

I'm not sure the show is losing large number of fans, though, I think that might be down to perception. I think average viewer just watches and doesn't get involved fandom, so what we're seeing on the message boards and fan sites doesn't necessarily represent the audience as a whole.

You also have to remember that this fandom is very wide-ranging and not everyone watches for the same reason, so not all fans are unhappy. Personally, I think the show fine right now; it's not flashy, but isn't egregious either. So, I'm guessing there's probably just as many people who love the show right now as there are fans who hate it and fans who are indifferent to it.