“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

DeeDee79 · January 18, 2020

32 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I saw a post from a health care professional who quit watching after this one because she was so disgusted by the writing for this episode and questioned how this show could claim that it cares about being helpful and supportive of good mental health while continuing to do what they're doing to Dean and never acknowledging how hurtful it is.

Do you still have the link to that post? I would be interested in reading it if you do.

Myrelle · January 18, 2020

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Do you still have the link to that post? I would be interested in reading it if you do.

I will try, but I'm so tech challenged.

DeeDee79 · January 18, 2020

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I will try, but I'm so tech challenged.

It would be great if you can find it but if you can't I still appreciate the offer.

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm betting they wouldn't be so adamant for it if Jensen and Misha weren't two objectively gorgeous men.

This is exactly right.

Harleycat · January 18, 2020

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because they are both characters who have been written as straight ftom the start. As have Dean and Castiel.

Cas has no opinion on human sexuality, he's not gay or straight. I think it's one of the reasons Dean used to like hanging out with him.

DeeDee79 · January 18, 2020

Thanks for posting that @Myrelle. She's absolutely right about Dabb, the unhealthy relationship between Dean and Cas as well as the way that Dean's feelings are dismissed by Dabb's followers as well as the other characters. At this point it doesn't seem like Dean has anyone in his corner that legitimately cares about his feelings.

Edited January 18, 2020 by DeeDee79

ukgirl71 · January 18, 2020

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Frankly, it's a little disturbing that they can't see a man having loving feelings towards another man without it being sexual or romantic

This, completely - thank you! It’s not just Supernatural where this kind of approach bugs me.

gonzosgirrl · January 18, 2020

16 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Cas has no opinion on human sexuality, he's not gay or straight. I think it's one of the reasons Dean used to like hanging out with him.

Agreed. Cas is not human, but even when he was for a hot minute there, he married a woman. ETA: Okay, that was when he was an amnesiac angel, but the point is the same. When he was human, he gravitated to women as well.

I am not going to debate gender fluidity or recognizing your sexuality later in life, or even being closeted (except to say I hope none of these people have closeted friends IRL - shoving them out against their will might not be such fun then). I am fully supportive of all ranges of the spectrum. I am not supportive of what the extremists of the Destiel fandom have pushed, nor the writers that have pandered to them.

Edited January 18, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

AwesomO4000 · January 18, 2020

Brought over from the "The Trap" episode thread:

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Chuck's future was bs. Because what would the brothers do if they themselves became monsters and a danger to their surviving friends and people in general? A) take themselves out or B) attack/kill their friends?

The writers and/or Chuck missed an opportunity there. They / he should have made them demons or soulless somehow, because I think as demons or soulless they would be more likely to kill their friends and family. There's precedent there.

Quote

Sam didn't even question that. Nor the fact that as he himself stated earlier in the Season Chuck has a habit of leaving all his little draft Earths to their own devices. And gosh golly, they don"t suddenly have monster apocalypses.

Of course not. Sam almost always gets hit with the plotonium. I've been saying that for many, many seasons now.

At least they sort of addressed the monster apocalypse in that at least it took a few years, but otherwise: plotonium.

Quote

That was some yarn there and it only got spun as gold so Sam wouldn't look bad for quickly giving up and giving in after seeing it. It was a teflon device to have Dean validate it at the end. If it had been the other way around, it would have been bad and wrong.

It would never be the other way around, in my opinion. When it comes to the big things now, Dean is almost always right. He has teflon instinct - even God pimped it in his story this episode*** - and the writers (post Gamble) will twist the plot into a pretzel to make it happen. I was sure of that after the whole "we should listen to Naomi" crap in season 8. There was no logical reason for anyone to guess that Naomi was anything but the villain or in any way trustworthy, but of course because Dean thought she was, surprise (not) Naomi was the one to listen to. Bull crap... that was the plot twisting into a pretzel to make Dean right and everyone else wrong.

*** Extra points for making Sam practically push Dean into going, and so making it absolutely clear who the idiot was and that Dean had to go along, because Sam wouldn't be anything but an idiot. The show just can't miss a good opportunity for teflon instinct Dean.

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

And boy, are you right about what would have happened if it were the other way around, and Dean was the one who gave up hope and so refused to smash the orb. We would never have heard the end of it from Sam and Castiel -- there would have been none of this, "Well, if you believe that, it's good enough for me!"

Actually I think that likely wouldn't happen anyway, since Dean generally isn't made to make stupid plot decisions like that (that's Sam's job, or secondarily Castiel's) If Dean had made that decision, there might have been questions, but then Dean would turn out to have been right and Sam and Castiel would have had to tell him how right he was. (a la Jack.)

And as for the judgement thing, it's not like Sam hasn't trusted Dean's judgement. That was shown as early as "Devil's Trap" after all. Now you never know though... for "teh drama" the writers like to not only make Dean right, but everyone else wrong.

Just my opinion on that one, though.

Harleycat · January 19, 2020

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually I think that likely wouldn't happen anyway, since Dean generally isn't made to make stupid plot decisions like that (that's Sam's job, or secondarily Castiel's) If Dean had made that decision, there might have been questions, but then Dean would turn out to have been right and Sam and Castiel would have had to tell him how right he was. (a la Jack.)

And as for the judgement thing, it's not like Sam hasn't trusted Dean's judgement. That was shown as early as "Devil's Trap" after all. Now you never know though... for "teh drama" the writers like to not only make Dean right, but everyone else wrong.

Just my opinion on that one, though.

Them making Dean too perfect (perfect fighter, perfect father figure, perfect instincts, perfect leader) often takes him out of the plot entirely. It's no wonder Dean just wants to retire on a beach somewhere, it has to be tiring knowing that there is never going to be an end to having to take care of his dependents, who should really be more of equal teammates by now.

And yes, Sam does have moments of trusting Dean's instincts, but then he forgets that two episodes later. It's boring, but at the same time everyone just listening to Dean and following ordered would also be boring.

Airmid · January 19, 2020

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Agreed. Cas is not human, but even when he was for a hot minute there, he married a woman. ETA: Okay, that was when he was an amnesiac angel, but the point is the same. When he was human, he gravitated to women as well.

I'm going to raise my hand and say not only did both of those plot lines creep me out, they just weren't necessary and are both manipulative.

In S7, he was found naked by that lake he got exploded in and this woman just finds him, ups and marries him [was this a consummated marriage, consent, anyone? Among many other questions...], uses him as a holy man, and once Dean is back in the picture nary is heard about her again. Not even a throw-away line at any point about what happens with her or if she's still in danger etc.

S9 was just as bad as he has sex with the first woman who offers him food stuffs. That's it. She offered him food and he just climbed into bed with her without any thought to his personal safety or of even contacting anyone that he is okay and not currently dying on the streets. And of course, she turns out to be a Reaper all set to torture and kill him.

Both women are shown in bad light, and in both cases, Cas is used by them. Both seem to be giving a middle finger to anyone out there that could have, even remotely, been Destiel shippers. Otherwise, either plot could have been pushed forward without scheming women sexing up Cas and then using and/or hurting him. The story would have been better for it regardless of whether one wanted him in a deep friendship with Dean or something more.

Honestly, I don't know what Cas prefers as a human because IMO we've never had a situation where he's gotten a healthy choice on that matter. I can't say I care at this point, just my thoughts on this whole debacle.

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am not supportive of what the extremists of the Destiel fandom have pushed, nor the writers that have pandered to them.

Totally agree.

Castiels Cat · January 19, 2020

Replying to SueB...

"Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me. Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to 'I'm sorry'. "

I still think that Cas' decision to withhold critical information about Jack was serious and it lead directly to Mary's death. It put all of their lives at risk. It put civilian lives at risk. Cas decision was unacceptable. Mary's death is on him as a result.

Dean has the right to be angry. He has the right to take however long he needs to take to process his grief and anger. He would be within his rights to decide to never have a relationship with Cas again. Cas' actions lead to the murder of his mother. She was incinerated out of existence. Having her in his life was a gift and a miracle. Cas' actions have destroyed that.

This may have been an "accident" because Jack couldn't control his surging power without a soul however it was not an accident on Cas' part. It was deceitful and a betrayal.

I wish that Dean was allowed to behave like a fully developed human being instead of a door mat or water carrier.

SueB · January 19, 2020

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Replying to SueB...

"Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me. Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to 'I'm sorry'. "

I still think that Cas' decision to withhold critical information about Jack was serious and it lead directly to Mary's death. It put all of their lives at risk. It put civilian lives at risk. Cas decision was unacceptable. Mary's death is on him as a result.

Dean has the right to be angry. He has the right to take however long he needs to take to process his grief and anger. He would be within his rights to decide to never have a relationship with Cas again. Cas' actions lead to the murder of his mother. She was incinerated out of existence. Having her in his life was a gift and a miracle. Cas' actions have destroyed that.

This may have been an "accident" because Jack couldn't control his surging power without a soul however it was not an accident on Cas' part. It was deceitful and a betrayal.

I wish that Dean was allowed to behave like a fully developed human being instead of a door mat or water carrier.

I agree that Cas needed to apologize and that he seriously f*cked up. My point was that he did actually apologize. Others were claiming he didn't. That was the whole point of my comment. Nothing more.

Castiels Cat · January 19, 2020

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I agree that Cas needed to apologize and that he seriously f*cked up. My point was that he did actually apologize. Others were claiming he didn't. That was the whole point of my comment. Nothing more.

Okay. Thanks. I read threads backwards to the top. I haven't gotten to the genesis of your comment yet.

I get that theoretically Cas might not understand emotions. Surely he understands that losing one's mom for the second time tragically is going to take time some time.

It's inexplicable that human fans don't get this.

DeeDee79 · January 19, 2020

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I get that theoretically Cas might not understand emotions. Surely he understands that losing one's mom for the second time tragically is going to take time some time.

It's inexplicable that human fans don't get this.

This is so on point.

BabySpinach · January 19, 2020

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It would never be the other way around, in my opinion. When it comes to the big things now, Dean is almost always right. He has teflon instinct - even God pimped it in his story this episode*** - and the writers (post Gamble) will twist the plot into a pretzel to make it happen. I was sure of that after the whole "we should listen to Naomi" crap in season 8. There was no logical reason for anyone to guess that Naomi was anything but the villain or in any way trustworthy, but of course because Dean thought she was, surprise (not) Naomi was the one to listen to. Bull crap... that was the plot twisting into a pretzel to make Dean right and everyone else wrong.

Not a single "plot pretzel" in Dean's favor has ever compared to the monstrosity of contrived Sam-pimping that was Swan Song.

Dean gets the shit beaten out of him for wanting to say yes to Michael and saving half the world, but Sam gets praised and lifted up for wanting to say yes to Lucifer and risking the entire world.

Dean says that he needs to "grow up" and let Sam do the same, implying that THAT'S been the problem all along.

Sam couldn't even take control back from Meg, yet believes for some reason that he has a chance against Lucifer, and is willing to bank the whole planet on it. No one brings up this extremely obvious point.

Sam drinks gallons of demon blood for no clear reason except for a "badass" shot of him killing demons with his mind.

No mention of Dean saying yes to Michael and wrestling back control so that he can throw Lucifer into the cage. It's exactly as far-fetched as the original plan, but with a far superior "worst case scenario." And in the unlikely event of success, the only one going into the Cage would be one evil archangel and a rotting meat suit, possibly Michael!Dean as well. No Adam as collateral.

Michael, the strongest archangel, happens to get pulled into the Cage like a stumbling toddler, conveniently wrapping up Sam's Big Hero moment, without any additional problems or casualties, in a neat little bow.

The ENTIRE POINT of the Impala's long-winded backstory is to ensure that Sam gets his ill-conceived, highly improbable win. Talk about twisting the plot in a character's favor!

Dean's consistent instinct for sniffing out people's true intentions/trustworthiness is small potatoes compared to all that. And regardless of how often he wins or he's right, it's not like it usually sticks or counts for anything. Just recently we've had Cas whining about missing Jack and Dean not forgiving him quickly enough, Sam protesting and batting his puppy eyes when Mean, Unreasonable Dean was "forcing" him to help lock up Murderous Nougat Boy.

Meanwhile, the hare-brained Cage plan has never been ridiculed or contradicted by anyone. Sam's story in seasons 6 and 7 was all about his noble suffering following that heroic sacrifice. Hell, he was even praising himself for "saving the world" via Fake Bobby in 9.01. Dean killing Eve, Dick Roman, Azazel, on the other hand? Not a single word of acknowledgement or appreciation after the fact.

WARNING: BARELY-RELATED TANGENT, NOT DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY AT ANYONE

I've mentioned before that, these past few years especially, Sam has suffered from too much Tell and not enough Show, and Dean has suffered from too much Show and not enough Tell. Most of the circular discussions on this thread are rooted in this fundamental disparity.

For instance, if someone expresses anger over how Dean is being treated by the writers and the characters in the TEXT, the response would likely concern all the instances that Dean was SHOWN as being in the right. If someone is pissed that Sam is SHOWN to be constantly screwing up, the likely rebuttal would be that the TEXT is praising/validating/whitewashing him. These are two separate lines of argument that will never intersect.

IMO, an angle that might be more substantial is the writers' intentions. And to that, I do have a thought: we already know that the majority of them are woefully incompetent, so what is more likely for incompetent writers to do? Purposefully contradict their Tell via their Show for absolutely no reason, OR spell out their agenda in the Tell and not give a shit about whether the Show/canon lines up with it?

That's why the writers' treatment of Dean pisses me off so much. No matter how many times he happens to be right or gets a cool scene once in a while, he still consistently gets treated like shit by the writers' mouthpieces. And knowing their ineptitude, I can't bring myself to believe that they're secretly trying to prop Dean up. They've demonstrated time and time again that they don't know what subtlety is.

So I know that most of them either dislike Dean themselves or have fallen in line with Dabb's "vision," and that the majority of textual sympathy/praise lies with Cas and Sam, regardless of how they actually come across on-screen. Dean Winchester deserves to be appreciated for the wonderful character he is, and that is not what's happening under Doofus Dabb. They're not doing a stellar job on Sam or Cas either, but at least that's due to pure incompetence rather than a lack of trying.

Writers' intentions DO matter; it's the difference between a lucky crumb that doesn't lead anywhere and an important and foreshadowed story. So far in this final season, Dean's gotten nothing but crumbs.

DeeDee79 · January 19, 2020

5 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Sam couldn't even take control back from Meg, yet believes for some reason that he has a chance against Lucifer, and is willing to bank the whole planet on it. No one brings up this extremely obvious point.

Bobby brought it up for about 30 seconds:

BOBBY Kid...It's called "possession" for a reason. You, of all people, ought to know.

SAM I'm strong enough.

BOBBY You ain't. He's gonna find every chink in your armor, Sam, and use it against you --Your fear, your grief, your anger. And let's face it -- You're not exactly Mr. Anger management. How are you gonna control the devil when you can't control yourself?

But he quickly changed his tune one episode later even though he was completely correct.

Castiels Cat · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I'm going to raise my hand and say not only did both of those plot lines creep me out, they just weren't necessary and are both manipulative.

In S7, he was found naked by that lake he got exploded in and this woman just finds him, ups and marries him [was this a consummated marriage, consent, anyone? Among many other questions...], uses him as a holy man, and once Dean is back in the picture nary is heard about her again. Not even a throw-away line at any point about what happens with her or if she's still in danger etc.

S9 was just as bad as he has sex with the first woman who offers him food stuffs. That's it. She offered him food and he just climbed into bed with her without any thought to his personal safety or of even contacting anyone that he is okay and not currently dying on the streets. And of course, she turns out to be a Reaper all set to torture and kill him.

Both women are shown in bad light, and in both cases, Cas is used by them. Both seem to be giving a middle finger to anyone out there that could have, even remotely, been Destiel shippers. Otherwise, either plot could have been pushed forward without scheming women sexing up Cas and then using and/or hurting him. The story would have been better for it regardless of whether one wanted him in a deep friendship with Dean or something more.

Honestly, I don't know what Cas prefers as a human because IMO we've never had a situation where he's gotten a healthy choice on that matter. I can't say I care at this point, just my thoughts on this whole debacle.

Totally agree.

I agree. The character is fetishized.

Castiels Cat · January 19, 2020

On 1/18/2020 at 1:20 PM, Myrelle said:

I will try, but I'm so tech challenged.

That's interesting that a mental health professional finds the way Dean has been treated disturbing. And also finds the reaction of some fans disturbing.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat · January 19, 2020

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's written by frat boys for starrey eyed teenagers and women with fantasy-fueled ideas about what a gay relationship looks like (or any healthy relationship for that matter). I'm betting they wouldn't be so adamant for it if Jensen and Misha weren't two objectively gorgeous men.

Frankly, it's a little disturbing that they can't see a man having loving feelings towards another man without it being sexual or romantic. I saw a blogger who 'finally gets' Destiel after this latest episode. And comments about how if a guy prayed to a woman like that, it would be the greatest love story ever told. What if it were, say, Jody speaking to Donna, after being sorry about a fight and fearing she might never get the chance to say sorry. Would that make them lesbian lovers? Only in fan fic. Because they are both characters who have been written as straight ftom the start. As have Dean and Castiel.

Per the writing:

Dean's father was abusive. His brother is manipulative and abusive since s1 although things have improved very recently. His best friend is supernatural and doesn't have human emotions and is also manipulative and abusive. He formed a healthy relationship with a great guy however his brother was jealous and that guy asked him to kill him because he was afraid he would fall off of the wagon without any human connection. The only truly loving relationship Dean had was with his mother as a small child. Now he has lost her again just as he started to build an adult relationship with her.

It's Cas' fault that Mary was alone with an out of control Jack who murdered her "accidentally"; yet Dean is not allowed to feel, react or be himself because Cas needs his immediate forgiveness.

And fans expect this too? The profound bond is long gone and it was never what they thought it was. The writers killed off the profound bond when the killed Cas in s 7. Things have never been the same. Cas prioritized heaven over the Winchesters and sided with Sam over Dean. Then he chose Jack.

I don't understand fetishizing the relationship. It's extremely weird.

Harleycat · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Per the writing:

Dean's father was abusive. His brother is manipulative and abusive since s1 although things have improved very recently. His best friend is supernatural and doesn't have human emotions and is also manipulative and abusive. He formed a healthy relationship with a great guy however his brother was jealous and that guy asked him to kill him because he was afraid he would fall off of the wagon without any human connection. The only truly loving relationship Dean had was with his mother as a small child. Now he has lost her again just as he started to build an adult relationship with her.

It's Cas' fault that Mary was alone with an out of control Jack who murdered her "accidentally"; yet Dean is not allowed to feel, react or be himself because Cas needs his immediate forgiveness.

And fans expect this too? The profound bond is long gone and it was never what they thought it was. The writers killed off the profound bond when the killed Cas in s 7. Things have never been the same. Cas prioritized heaven over the Winchesters and sided with Sam over Dean. Then he chose Jack.

I don't understand fetishizing the relationship. It's extremely weird.

The tragedy of the current writing team has been Cas. I don't know how Misha can stand it. What happened to the kind of funny, but mostly purposeful and righteous Cas? Now we have a Cas who does nothing but whimper over Jack and be a jealous ass about Jack preferring Dean (because really who wouldn't prefer Dean). The actor slips out of character during those stupid speeches they have Cas give, not even he can take it seriously.

The writers just couldn't seem to handle a loving relationship between men. They had to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the viewers.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Harleycat

Airmid · January 19, 2020

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

And fans expect this too? The profound bond is long gone and it was never what they thought it was. The writers killed off the profound bond when the killed Cas in s 7. Things have never been the same. Cas prioritized heaven over the Winchesters and sided with Sam over Dean. Then he chose Jack.

IIRC, Gamble had decided to kill the character off permanently at the beginning of S7, showing Dean grieving and trying to cope with the loss and betrayal while having to deal with what was going down in the world and with Sam [carried a lot by her personal feelings on the character] It was fan outcry that brought him back, and TBH, I wasn't against that for this one because it wasn't a great way for the character to go out.

IMO - they didn't do terrible with Cas at the tail end of the S7. He did go with Dean, he did heal Sam and fix his mistake when confronted, and in the season finale he does talk to Dean and it becomes apparent, at least on Gamble's watch, that things bothering Cas weren't just about Sam's pain but what had happened between him and Dean and in heaven. Gamble simply ends the season with Cas vanishing in Purgatory and Dean alone.

It was Carver that started putting a fork in this relationship. Cas left with zero explanation apparently of why. Sure, Dean would have hunted through the place to get him back if Cas had said "I must to go, they will come for me", but it would have made it so much better.

Cas is shown actually having some true compassion and kindness towards Dean in S8 by telling him it wasn't Dean's fault he was left in that place. He does open up a little about his remorse and fears of his guilt and regret if he returns to heaven.

But this latter development in S8 is swept by the wayside because we get the silly 'heaven controls Cas plot' which stagnates any character development we could have had. We also get multiple seasons worth of arcs jammed into the backend of the season. We get the angel tablet tossed into the mix, we get the trials to close hell [and the ease of getting to Purgatory - wow, Sam, did that show how little you tried if all you needed was a rogue reaper, sorry hon] and the Metatron takeover just for funsies while Cas has character regression once again because story needs to happen.

By the time we get into S9, Cas slides back even more, not contacting the brothers for help after the start of the season and then leading angels and lying about it till he needs help. Even the whole thing with Sam could have been handled better, with Dean taking him out, telling him some half truth, like Sam needs constant healing visits that Sam wishes to keep on the downlow or something and that angels are skittish around Cas, and keeping in contact with him, making sure he's taken care of and not sleeping at his work but I guess angst was more important.

After all of that, for me, just didn't care about their relationship because whatever they had that could have built back up and made much stronger if writers/show runners had taken their time with all these things, was pretty much wiped out.

The angels in general have suffered a lot on this show. If any of them showed anything that meant they weren't complete psychopaths, they were often axed. Balthazar - even if one hated him - did have a better arc and firm loyalties and they weren't to heaven. But S7? One angel who finds the prophet is nuts and Cas kills her. Inas or whatever his name was, is shown to have compassion and immediately gets eaten. Naomi sees what God told Metatron and does a 180 complete with an unheard of angel tear in S8 and immediately gets axed [and no, bringing her back seasons later does not make up for that show]. Muriel comes to Cas in S9 wanting the fighting to end and seeming to at least not mind humans and immediately gets torture murdered in front of Cas. We get an angel in S12 that Cas firmly states loved humans and actually plays a video game that ends up getting murdered by Lily Sunder before we have a chance to even known this angel at all. [I'm sure there's more examples or trashing of angels - I want to add Joshua to this list but can't be asked to remember].

The vast majority got turned into one note monsters instead of highly powerful and more well thought out ancient creatures, so it's not surprising to me that Cas gets treated the way his character does. It's not the character that fans really liked all the way back in S4, or even still wanted around in the next few seasons hoping for better. For me, he just became a device to move the plot or worse, prop up who/what the writer's wanted with little going for him at this point outside of that and has been for years, IMO.

AwesomO4000 · January 19, 2020

9 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Not a single "plot pretzel" in Dean's favor has ever compared to the monstrosity of contrived Sam-pimping that was Swan Song.

Dean gets the shit beaten out of him for wanting to say yes to Michael and saving half the world, but Sam gets praised and lifted up for wanting to say yes to Lucifer and risking the entire world.

First, I did say "now" meaning recently...

The writing used to be a bit more evenly based in terms of the brothers not being wrong - or at least both of them having legitimate points of view. Starting in the Carver years is when that wasn't the case anymore for me.

As for Sam's strategy being something just made up to "pimp" Sam, I might agree with you if this hadn't been the philosophy of the show previously. The show established that the Machiavellian way was not the way to go maybe previously, but it was pretty clearly shown in "Jus in Bello." In that episode it was Dean's plan they went with - despite the fact that it should have had a high probability of failing - because he wasn't going to condone letting Nancy sacrifice herself to save the rest. Dean even said something to the effect of they either saved everyone or they went down swinging. And Sam considering letting Nancy sacrifice herself - even though Nancy was willing - was treated as pretty much like Sam was the worst person ever.

That nobody died with Dean's plan was fairly far-fetched, but the show went with it, because that was their established philosophy. So it isn't all that strange, in my opinion, that the show would take the same stance with Dean's Machiavellian plan and go with Sam's save everybody, but much riskier plan. The show had already established that stance with "Jus in Bello."

9 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Sam couldn't even take control back from Meg, yet believes for some reason that he has a chance against Lucifer, and is willing to bank the whole planet on it. No one brings up this extremely obvious point.

Actually Bobby did at the least. Likely Dean as well.

Quote

Sam drinks gallons of demon blood for no clear reason except for a "badass" shot of him killing demons with his mind.

The writers had Sam drink blood so that his judgment would be impaired and he would say "yes" even though Lucifer knew the plan. If the writers had really wanted to pimp Sam, then he would've beaten Lucifer without any help as soon as he said "yes," and while he was all hopped up on the demon blood. But that wasn't the point of that, in my opinion.

9 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

No mention of Dean saying yes to Michael and wrestling back control so that he can throw Lucifer into the cage. It's exactly as far-fetched as the original plan, but with a far superior "worst case scenario."

Except that Michael was already in Adam at the time with no way to find him. When Dean came up with his say "yes" to Michael plan, they didn't even know about the box. Dean's plan was to give Michael his vessel, so that he could kill Lucifer.

And personality-wise, I doubt that it would work anyway. Michael had much less personality weakness than Lucifer did. Michael knew what he wanted, and that was to kill Lucifer... he was the one who made sure that Lucifer got out after all. Michael wasn't an "I'll let you see what's happening" type like Lucifer was. He would've locked Dean down as soon as he took over. And we know he can wipe memories without batting an eyelash. Dean might not even have known who he was anymore if Michael sensed Dean might try to do something to distract him from his goal.

Lucifer was all about the monologuing and "let me show you why I'm right." Much more to try to work with there.

Quote

Meanwhile, the hare-brained Cage plan has never been ridiculed or contradicted by anyone.

I'm fairly certain Bobby's "There was never much hope to begin with" wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

And even before it failed Bobby called it an insane plan multiple times, if I remember correctly. Even as he supposedly endorsed the plan - after Death's saying it was the way to go - he still said Sam was "ass-full of character defects," so...

9 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean killing Eve, Dick Roman, Azazel, on the other hand? Not a single word of acknowledgement or appreciation after the fact.

I'm pretty sure that that isn't true. Crowley at the least has mentioned it. Probably some other demons as well.

As for Azazel, Sam was pretty thrown by the Dean has a year to live thing, to focus on anything else, and Sam still praised Dean for all that he'd done for Sam, despite the fact that the deal was arguably a crappy thing to do to Sam.

And currently Dean is God's favorite with God singing his praises in terms of how good his instincts are...

Meanwhile, the writers have Sam being fooled, yet again, and Dean humoring his poor, stupid brother to make him feel better (because what else can Dean do at this point?) Because I agree with Castiel's Cat that Dean's "Good enough for me," seemed a little bit like an "oh well, whatever. My brother is an idiot, bless his heart."

It's likely we'll find out later it was all a trick, Sam will get pissed and want revenge (season 7 character progression? Nah we don't pay attention to that.) And Dean will have to talk him down. *sigh*

Edited January 19, 2020 by AwesomO4000

Aeryn13 · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm pretty sure that that isn't true. Crowley at the least has mentioned it. Probably some other demons as well.

I remember a scene in Season 6 right after Eve was killed and Crowley had her dissected, he listed all the big bads killed in an outraged manner - it was only Sam`s kills. Not one of Dean`s. Even though freaking Eve was right there in the frame. I can still remember my eyes rolling so hard.

Crowley was also the one who attributed the saviour of the Amara-situation to God.

If Dean gets "acknowledgment" these days, it might be for butler/nurse duties. Never for any big win.

Quote

And currently Dean is God's favorite with God singing his praises in terms of how good his instincts are...

You mean the God who is the muhaha-evil Big Bad of the show right now? That`s a ringing endorsement. It nullifies any nice things he might have said to Dean in the Season 11 Finale.

Also, he did prop Sam as well in this recent episode. He called him heroic, defiant, how it took a lot to beat the hope out of him etc.

It`s not like he gave any propping words to Dean here.

Katy M · January 19, 2020

56 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I remember a scene in Season 6 right after Eve was killed and Crowley had her dissected, he listed all the big bads killed in an outraged manner - it was only Sam`s kills. Not one of Dean`s. Even though freaking Eve was right there in the frame. I can still remember my eyes rolling so hard.

I remember specifically that he said Azazel. That was Dean's kill.

Aeryn13 · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I remember specifically that he said Azazel. That was Dean's kill.

I checked and okay, so Dean got one to Lucifer/Michael/Lilith and Alistair - all 4 Sam. Still not exactly a balanced rendition.

Myrelle · January 19, 2020

13 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Not a single "plot pretzel" in Dean's favor has ever compared to the monstrosity of contrived Sam-pimping that was Swan Song.

Dean gets the shit beaten out of him for wanting to say yes to Michael and saving half the world, but Sam gets praised and lifted up for wanting to say yes to Lucifer and risking the entire world.

Dean says that he needs to "grow up" and let Sam do the same, implying that THAT'S been the problem all along.

Sam couldn't even take control back from Meg, yet believes for some reason that he has a chance against Lucifer, and is willing to bank the whole planet on it. No one brings up this extremely obvious point.

Sam drinks gallons of demon blood for no clear reason except for a "badass" shot of him killing demons with his mind.

No mention of Dean saying yes to Michael and wrestling back control so that he can throw Lucifer into the cage. It's exactly as far-fetched as the original plan, but with a far superior "worst case scenario." And in the unlikely event of success, the only one going into the Cage would be one evil archangel and a rotting meat suit, possibly Michael!Dean as well. No Adam as collateral.

Michael, the strongest archangel, happens to get pulled into the Cage like a stumbling toddler, conveniently wrapping up Sam's Big Hero moment, without any additional problems or casualties, in a neat little bow.

The ENTIRE POINT of the Impala's long-winded backstory is to ensure that Sam gets his ill-conceived, highly improbable win. Talk about twisting the plot in a character's favor!

Dean's consistent instinct for sniffing out people's true intentions/trustworthiness is small potatoes compared to all that. And regardless of how often he wins or he's right, it's not like it usually sticks or counts for anything. Just recently we've had Cas whining about missing Jack and Dean not forgiving him quickly enough, Sam protesting and batting his puppy eyes when Mean, Unreasonable Dean was "forcing" him to help lock up Murderous Nougat Boy.

Meanwhile, the hare-brained Cage plan has never been ridiculed or contradicted by anyone. Sam's story in seasons 6 and 7 was all about his noble suffering following that heroic sacrifice. Hell, he was even praising himself for "saving the world" via Fake Bobby in 9.01. Dean killing Eve, Dick Roman, Azazel, on the other hand? Not a single word of acknowledgement or appreciation after the fact.

WARNING: BARELY-RELATED TANGENT, NOT DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY AT ANYONE

I've mentioned before that, these past few years especially, Sam has suffered from too much Tell and not enough Show, and Dean has suffered from too much Show and not enough Tell. Most of the circular discussions on this thread are rooted in this fundamental disparity.

For instance, if someone expresses anger over how Dean is being treated by the writers and the characters in the TEXT, the response would likely concern all the instances that Dean was SHOWN as being in the right. If someone is pissed that Sam is SHOWN to be constantly screwing up, the likely rebuttal would be that the TEXT is praising/validating/whitewashing him. These are two separate lines of argument that will never intersect.

IMO, an angle that might be more substantial is the writers' intentions. And to that, I do have a thought: we already know that the majority of them are woefully incompetent, so what is more likely for incompetent writers to do? Purposefully contradict their Tell via their Show for absolutely no reason, OR spell out their agenda in the Tell and not give a shit about whether the Show/canon lines up with it?

That's why the writers' treatment of Dean pisses me off so much. No matter how many times he happens to be right or gets a cool scene once in a while, he still consistently gets treated like shit by the writers' mouthpieces. And knowing their ineptitude, I can't bring myself to believe that they're secretly trying to prop Dean up. They've demonstrated time and time again that they don't know what subtlety is.

So I know that most of them either dislike Dean themselves or have fallen in line with Dabb's "vision," and that the majority of textual sympathy/praise lies with Cas and Sam, regardless of how they actually come across on-screen. Dean Winchester deserves to be appreciated for the wonderful character he is, and that is not what's happening under Doofus Dabb. They're not doing a stellar job on Sam or Cas either, but at least that's due to pure incompetence rather than a lack of trying.

Writers' intentions DO matter; it's the difference between a lucky crumb that doesn't lead anywhere and an important and foreshadowed story. So far in this final season, Dean's gotten nothing but crumbs.

I think that pretty much every word of this post was made crystal clear in this week's episode, but the bolded parts especially-but I would say that the last one has been happening since s12, not just this season and even taking into account the Michael/Dean sl which, again, Dabb couldn't even be bothered talking about-at least where it concerned Dean/Jensen and how the possession might affect Dean.

No, it was all Leader Sam blah, blah, blah and we know that Jensen got no help whatsoever from Dabb with the role and even when he flat out asked for it.

And let's not forget all those Dabb interviews right before it wherein he even told us who we should be most worried/concerned about and who will be "changed" the most going forward to the end and blah, blah, blah.

If nothing else, those interviews let us know which character Dabb will be focusing on going into the home stretch and as the entire series winds down.

So based on that and what he was actually given in Dabb's most "pivotal" episode of this final season, I think it's pretty easy to see that "crumbs" will continue to be all that we'll get for Dean, and likely in the usual form-crying and handwringing over OCs, propping OCs, and basically/strictly being the wind beneathe OCs wings yet again.

IOW, Dean/Jensen will be in strictly a supporting role in the big finish.

That's my official prediction and I will be thrilled if I'm proven wrong, but again, after what we've gotten most recently from Dabb, I'd be willing to take bets that I'm not.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

trudysmom · January 19, 2020

Not sure this is an okay place to say this, but I couldn't find a better one, so slap my hand if you need to. I happened upon Season 3 Jus in Bello and although I've seen in several time, several several times, I still felt the tension, urgency, the fear. I knew Dean was going to get back to the jail in time, but I still found myself telling him to hurry up, lol. The music, the atmosphere, all of it comes together to make it something I will enjoy watching again and again. Whereas episodes like this week's, I will go out of my way to NOT see again.

I also miss Ghostfacers. Moments of lightness to break the dark tension of what the brothers were facing, but lightness from outside, not at Dean's expense.

Harleycat · January 19, 2020

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I remember a scene in Season 6 right after Eve was killed and Crowley had her dissected, he listed all the big bads killed in an outraged manner - it was only Sam`s kills. Not one of Dean`s. Even though freaking Eve was right there in the frame. I can still remember my eyes rolling so hard.

I mean yes, but I hardly think that Crowley pimped Sam as being so great. You realize that every time Crowley called Sam Moose he was implying that Sam is well intentioned but big, slow, and kind of dumb. Which is how they have Sam act most of the time. Sure, he has his moments, but that's what they are, just moments. The day to day Sam just gets kidnapped or hit in the head a lot.

Airmid · January 19, 2020

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I checked and okay, so Dean got one to Lucifer/Michael/Lilith and Alistair - all 4 Sam. Still not exactly a balanced rendition.

Probably not a popular opinion here, but Crowley does want Cas to kill the Winchesters and doesn't seem to list the deaths as one brother over the other but as both being exceptionally dangerous to their plan. He's only doing major deaths he probably knows about and maybe figures Eve being kaput goes without saying as a ding in their little arrangement, seeing as her body is right there and all.

And, at this point, it was implied in Swan Song that without Dean, Sam wouldn't have had the Lucifer/Michael hit on his list and I think originally it was supposed to be a joint thing. I actually don't mind the thought behind Dean going to Stull to give his brother the last thing he could so Sam could fix his mistake. I just absolutely hate the entire build up with Savior Sam that happened in the proceeding couple of episodes and throughout the season finale.

The whole 'strength of brotherly love' goes by the wayside when we had Sam basically saying "I can totes take on Lucifer guys, now go get me some demons."

You'd think any plan that gets Sam back on the juice and risks jeopardizing his soul and humanity would have been nixed right quick but nope, it's supposed to all be okay this time, and Dean's just mildly disturbed by this development [and seems to be the only one who is].

gonzosgirrl · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

IOW, Dean/Jensen will be in strictly a supporting role in the big finish.

And if you enjoyed Dean groveling and begging forgiveness from Castiel, just wait

Spoiler

until Jack comes back. I bet we ain't seen nothing yet.

ahrtee · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

IOW, Dean/Jensen will be in strictly a supporting role in the big finish.

That's what most of the showrunners have seen as his role all along. Talk about a pointed conversation (from back in season 7, The Mentalists):

MUSEUM GUIDE: Oh, the Fox sisters – among the founders of Lily Dale. Kate Fox – quite troubled, apparently, but mesmerizing onstage. She's said to be able to levitate objects and foretell one's death.

DEAN (to SAM): That's her.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Her older sister, Margaret – perhaps not a natural psychic.

DEAN: So, full of crap.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others.

Myrelle · January 19, 2020

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

That's what most of the showrunners have seen as his role all along. Talk about a pointed conversation (from back in season 7, The Mentalists):

MUSEUM GUIDE: Oh, the Fox sisters – among the founders of Lily Dale. Kate Fox – quite troubled, apparently, but mesmerizing onstage. She's said to be able to levitate objects and foretell one's death.

DEAN (to SAM): That's her.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Her older sister, Margaret – perhaps not a natural psychic.

DEAN: So, full of crap.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others.

Yeah, that line right there was one of the things that turned me off Gamble so much.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

AwesomO4000 · January 19, 2020

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's what most of the showrunners have seen as his role all along. Talk about a pointed conversation (from back in season 7, The Mentalists):

MUSEUM GUIDE: Oh, the Fox sisters – among the founders of Lily Dale. Kate Fox – quite troubled, apparently, but mesmerizing onstage. She's said to be able to levitate objects and foretell one's death.

DEAN (to SAM): That's her.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Her older sister, Margaret – perhaps not a natural psychic.

DEAN: So, full of crap.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others.

Except as we later learned, it was actually Margaret who was the real talent (or at the least, was just as talented) while Kate was more the one who got the credit - maybe because she was prettier. So if we're looking at parallels, that fact was basically saying that not only was Margaret the "caretaker," she was also at least as talented or maybe moreso than her younger sister.

My point being: things aren't always as they seem to be stated at first, and maybe there was another message in there besides just the obvious one. Interestingly, it also turned out that Kate was the ghost gone bad, while Margaret was just trying to warn everybody and Sam and Dean weren't listening. So if we're taking the parallel literally, then that adds another layer to the comparison. One I am not sure I appreciate if I take it too literally, actually. Edited to add that this part is not correct - brain fail on my part - as helpfully and kindly pointed out by @Myrelle. (The rest I think is correct, though.)

In my opinion, the writing for that episode was more complex than it's given credit for. I'm pretty sure that episode was very pro-Dean, perhaps somewhat subversively, but it was there. Remember that this was the same episode where Dean was proclaimed as a "virile manifestation of the divine."

Edited January 20, 2020 by AwesomO4000

Myrelle · January 20, 2020

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except as we later learned, it was actually Margaret who was the real talent (or at the least, was just as talented) while Kate was more the one who got the credit - maybe because she was prettier. So if we're looking at parallels, that fact was basically saying that not only was Margaret the "caretaker," she was also at least as talented or maybe moreso than her younger sister.

My point being: things aren't always as they seem to be stated at first, and maybe there was another message in there besides just the obvious one. Interestingly, it also turned out that Kate was the ghost gone bad, while Margaret was just trying to warn everybody and Sam and Dean weren't listening. So if we're taking the parallel literally, then that adds another layer to the comparison. One I am not sure I appreciate if I take it too literally, actually.

In my opinion, the writing for that episode was more complex than it's given credit for. I'm pretty sure that episode was very pro-Dean, perhaps somewhat subversively, but it was there. Remember that this was the same episode where Dean was proclaimed as a "virile manifestation of the divine."

I thought Margaret was the bad one and Kate was the one who tried to warn them.

What gets me is that these two writers were gone after this one episode in which we were given a Dean who finally stood up for himself and-miracle of all miracles!-for once he didn't have to take it back!

Not sure how that got by, but these two guys DID just disappear never to be heard from again after it. 🤷‍♀️

Castiels Cat · January 20, 2020

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except as we later learned, it was actually Margaret who was the real talent (or at the least, was just as talented) while Kate was more the one who got the credit - maybe because she was prettier. So if we're looking at parallels, that fact was basically saying that not only was Margaret the "caretaker," she was also at least as talented or maybe moreso than her younger sister.

My point being: things aren't always as they seem to be stated at first, and maybe there was another message in there besides just the obvious one. Interestingly, it also turned out that Kate was the ghost gone bad, while Margaret was just trying to warn everybody and Sam and Dean weren't listening. So if we're taking the parallel literally, then that adds another layer to the comparison. One I am not sure I appreciate if I take it too literally, actually.

In my opinion, the writing for that episode was more complex than it's given credit for. I'm pretty sure that episode was very pro-Dean, perhaps somewhat subversively, but it was there. Remember that this was the same episode where Dean was proclaimed as a "virile manifestation of the divine."

I am never going to forget that Dean is a virile manifestation of the divine.

Airmid · January 20, 2020

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's what most of the showrunners have seen as his role all along. Talk about a pointed conversation (from back in season 7, The Mentalists):

MUSEUM GUIDE: Oh, the Fox sisters – among the founders of Lily Dale. Kate Fox – quite troubled, apparently, but mesmerizing onstage. She's said to be able to levitate objects and foretell one's death.

DEAN (to SAM): That's her.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Her older sister, Margaret – perhaps not a natural psychic.

DEAN: So, full of crap.

MUSEUM GUIDE: Yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others.

Except that's the clap-trap touristy crap being spouted.

In reality, Margaret was the true talent behind everything but Kate got all the attention, love and praise. Creepy pawn shop dude didn't have to do a thing to control her, she wanted to help because she was sick of this noise. [in fact, creepy dude put most of her bones in his bed, a fact I remember vividly all these years later, ew].

Kate, to her credit, did actually show up and try to circumvent her sister's murder spree until her bones were salted and burned. Oops. But attention was on her originally because she was the one in the forefront and the one thought to have a true gift. It was the one relegated to the shadows that was dangerous.

Now, what one takes away from this situation and the relationship between the brothers at the end is up to the viewer.

Myrelle · January 20, 2020

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I am never going to forget that Dean is a virile manifestation of the divine.

I remember the Mo Ryan debacle when this one aired.

It was wild.

And yes, so much love for that awesome descriptor of Dean that they snuck in there, too.

catrox14 · January 20, 2020

26 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I remember the Mo Ryan debacle when this one aired.

Ohh do tell!

Castiels Cat · January 20, 2020

22 hours ago, Harleycat said:

The tragedy of the current writing team has been Cas. I don't know how Misha can stand it. What happened to the kind of funny, but mostly purposeful and righteous Cas? Now we have a Cas who does nothing but whimper over Jack and be a jealous ass about Jack preferring Dean (because really who wouldn't prefer Dean). The actor slips out of character during those stupid speeches they have Cas give, not even he can take it seriously.

The writers just couldn't seem to handle a loving relationship between men. They had to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the viewers.

My favorite Jack scenes were the Dean/Jack father/son vignettes before Jack died. Jack picked himself the right role model to bond with.

Castiels Cat · January 20, 2020

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

First, I did say "now" meaning recently...

The writing used to be a bit more evenly based in terms of the brothers not being wrong - or at least both of them having legitimate points of view. Starting in the Carver years is when that wasn't the case anymore for me.

As for Sam's strategy being something just made up to "pimp" Sam, I might agree with you if this hadn't been the philosophy of the show previously. The show established that the Machiavellian way was not the way to go maybe previously, but it was pretty clearly shown in "Jus in Bello." In that episode it was Dean's plan they went with - despite the fact that it should have had a high probability of failing - because he wasn't going to condone letting Nancy sacrifice herself to save the rest. Dean even said something to the effect of they either saved everyone or they went down swinging. And Sam considering letting Nancy sacrifice herself - even though Nancy was willing - was treated as pretty much like Sam was the worst person ever.

That nobody died with Dean's plan was fairly far-fetched, but the show went with it, because that was their established philosophy. So it isn't all that strange, in my opinion, that the show would take the same stance with Dean's Machiavellian plan and go with Sam's save everybody, but much riskier plan. The show had already established that stance with "Jus in Bello."

Actually Bobby did at the least. Likely Dean as well.

The writers had Sam drink blood so that his judgment would be impaired and he would say "yes" even though Lucifer knew the plan. If the writers had really wanted to pimp Sam, then he would've beaten Lucifer without any help as soon as he said "yes," and while he was all hopped up on the demon blood. But that wasn't the point of that, in my opinion.

Except that Michael was already in Adam at the time with no way to find him. When Dean came up with his say "yes" to Michael plan, they didn't even know about the box. Dean's plan was to give Michael his vessel, so that he could kill Lucifer.

And personality-wise, I doubt that it would work anyway. Michael had much less personality weakness than Lucifer did. Michael knew what he wanted, and that was to kill Lucifer... he was the one who made sure that Lucifer got out after all. Michael wasn't an "I'll let you see what's happening" type like Lucifer was. He would've locked Dean down as soon as he took over. And we know he can wipe memories without batting an eyelash. Dean might not even have known who he was anymore if Michael sensed Dean might try to do something to distract him from his goal.

Lucifer was all about the monologuing and "let me show you why I'm right." Much more to try to work with there.

I'm fairly certain Bobby's "There was never much hope to begin with" wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

And even before it failed Bobby called it an insane plan multiple times, if I remember correctly. Even as he supposedly endorsed the plan - after Death's saying it was the way to go - he still said Sam was "ass-full of character defects," so...

I'm pretty sure that that isn't true. Crowley at the least has mentioned it. Probably some other demons as well.

As for Azazel, Sam was pretty thrown by the Dean has a year to live thing, to focus on anything else, and Sam still praised Dean for all that he'd done for Sam, despite the fact that the deal was arguably a crappy thing to do to Sam.

And currently Dean is God's favorite with God singing his praises in terms of how good his instincts are...

Meanwhile, the writers have Sam being fooled, yet again, and Dean humoring his poor, stupid brother to make him feel better (because what else can Dean do at this point?) Because I agree with Castiel's Cat that Dean's "Good enough for me," seemed a little bit like an "oh well, whatever. My brother is an idiot, bless his heart."

It's likely we'll find out later it was all a trick, Sam will get pissed and want revenge (season 7 character progression? Nah we don't pay attention to that.) And Dean will have to talk him down. *sigh*

The good guys CANNOT SACRIFICE A VIRGIN. The fact that Sam was willing was a sign that he was corruptible. Dean, Hendricks and everyone else was against the plan because they were the good guys, the heroes.

They didn't do a great job writing themselves out of their original set-up for s 5. It was a mess. This is a hot mess.

ahrtee · January 20, 2020

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Azazel, Sam was pretty thrown by the Dean has a year to live thing, to focus on anything else, and Sam still praised Dean for all that he'd done for Sam, despite the fact that the deal was arguably a crappy thing to do to Sam.

This has bothered me for years. I understand survivor's guilt, and feeling angry at the one sacrificing himself, but *Dean is the one being sacrificed.* You can't say that he didn't get the crappier end of the stick there, and the fact that he did it to himself, or even that he knew Sam wouldn't have wanted it, doesn't negate that.

Yes, John sacrificing himself was hard on Dean, moreso because Dean always thought of himself as the expendable one, and didn't feel worthy of sacrifice. But Sam has always had better self-esteem and more optimism than Dean, so I imagine that deep down he was glad he was still alive, even while he was horrified at the thought of being happy while Dean was being tortured. Maybe it was that kind of guilt that made him lash out so much at Dean. Nothing against Sam there--that's perfectly human.

But it doesn't help anyone--not himself, not Dean--to make the deal be about himself, and how bad it makes *him* feel. Be mad, be hurt, but also be grateful that you're still alive. Blaming Dean for making him feel bad? Trying to make Dean feel guilty once it's already a done deal? Really crappy move. Better to say 'I hate that you did that, but thank you.'

Myrelle · January 20, 2020

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Ohh do tell!

Not sure this is the thread for it, but I'll try to keep it short.

I remember it vividly because so many Dean fans who had left the fandom after s6 came back just to comment on this one episode and that one scene and she(having made friends with a number of well-known ESG bloggers at the time) wrote a scathing put-down of Dean's words to Sam in her column(for the Chicago Tribune, I think) that was met with the full force of those returned Dean fans-hundreds of comments(and the best of the best at debating salient points concerning this show, while she was fairly new to the fandom and the show, IIRC, but a fairly well-known supposedly professional critic even then and at that time).

I think she learned a few things that she didn't know about the SPN fandom that day. 😉

AwesomO4000 · January 20, 2020

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I thought Margaret was the bad one and Kate was the one who tried to warn them.

You are right, actually. I guess my brain decided to take a break from it's usually pretty good memory on that one. I remembered correctly that Margaret was actually the one with the powers, but forgot that that was why her ghost went bad. (I thought that only the one with the actual foreshadowing powers - which was Margaret - would have been doing the warning, which is how I got confused.) Now I am wondering how Kate tried to warn the people if she didn't have the stronger powers. (Or maybe that's why she sucked at it? : P )

I will fix my post accordingly.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

You can't say that he didn't get the crappier end of the stick there, and the fact that he did it to himself, or even that he knew Sam wouldn't have wanted it, doesn't negate that.

No, I completely agree. Dean definitely got the crappier end of the stick. My only point was that Sam was still grateful even though he had reason to be a little angry also.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe it was that kind of guilt that made him lash out so much at Dean. Nothing against Sam there--that's perfectly human.

I totally agree.

I have said before that this is actually what I thought was happening in season 4. Sam was a little angry at Dean for putting him in the position to fail at saving him and felt guilty for both his anger and his failure and so was lashing out at Dean. For most of season 3, Sam had his usual hope that he could save Dean - right up until the end*** - but then when he couldn't, he already knew what things were going to be like without Dean (Thanks to The Trickster) and that started his downward spiral in earnest.

I actually wished that the writing had explicitly gone this route - because it made more sense to me than whatever the heck that was that they tried to turn it into that made much less sense, in my opinion. However in season 4 we often skipped over Sam's emotional point of view for a lot of important things, which I think in the end wasn't good for Sam's characterization.

*** Even though some of his tactics near the end were getting pretty questionable to say the least.

Quote

But it doesn't help anyone--not himself, not Dean--to make the deal be about himself, and how bad it makes *him* feel. Be mad, be hurt, but also be grateful that you're still alive. Blaming Dean for making him feel bad? Trying to make Dean feel guilty once it's already a done deal? Really crappy move. Better to say 'I hate that you did that, but thank you.'

Agreed again, and I'm glad that that was what Sam did in season 3.

Wow look at that! We agreed on 3 things.

AwesomO4000 · January 20, 2020

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I think she learned a few things that she didn't know about the SPN fandom that day. 😉

For some reason I heard this in my head in Rick Moranis' voice from Ghostbusters. When he had that silly helmet on his head and was saying something about everyone learning the wrath of *insert name of mythical creature* that day. And I expect that the wrath of the SPN fandom was nearly as catastrophic. Hee.

Edited January 20, 2020 by AwesomO4000
To add a forgotten "the"

Airmid · January 20, 2020

11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

The good guys CANNOT SACRIFICE A VIRGIN. The fact that Sam was willing was a sign that he was corruptible. Dean, Hendricks and everyone else was against the plan because they were the good guys, the heroes.

- Sam had demon's blood in him and had messed up his tendencies from his childhood [both brothers do, just differently, at least in earlier seasons], of course he's more corruptible than average. We had just seen him earlier this same season outright murdering a demon and her meatsuit for not getting the answer he wanted and willing to listen to a demon. He later had some other issues and is dragged back from the edge by Dean until his death.

- The fact that they didn't sacrifice Nancy is used against them, especially Sam, as everyone died in that station not named Winchester. Now, due to Ruby's allegiances, whether this would have still happened regardless is up for question, it was held over the brothers, especially Sam.

- Just because characters are heroes doesn't mean that they don't have to at least have to consider bad options in bad situations, even if they find a way to not have to do those bad options. Sometimes there isn't a noble option - sometimes one gets crappy choices and has to go with the less crappy one that causes the least amount of harm overall.

Not saying they should have sacrificed Nancy, or it would have changed the eventual outcome, but the show, at that point, was more firm on showing consequences until that got thrown under a bus. Lilith found out where they were because they sent the demons back instead of outright killing them. I'm sure it crossed both of their minds, as well as many viewers that perhaps everybody alive except Nancy would have been a better outcome than everybody dead if Nancy was going to die anyways. They tried their best with the knowledge they had in that moment and utterly failed.

[And to be snarky, they failed us because they had a chance to kill Ruby and didn't take it].

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But it doesn't help anyone--not himself, not Dean--to make the deal be about himself, and how bad it makes *him* feel. Be mad, be hurt, but also be grateful that you're still alive. Blaming Dean for making him feel bad? Trying to make Dean feel guilty once it's already a done deal? Really crappy move. Better to say 'I hate that you did that, but thank you.'

The problem I've always had with this line of thinking is that neither of them asked to be saved by their loved one hawking themselves to hell and neither of them should have to say thank you. There's other more honest and loving things to say, IMO at least.

To Dean's credit - it was his raw grief that caused his deal, so it made it understandable. John however spent his last few minutes alive not to comfort his son but to shift the burden onto Dean. His whole speech to Dean is gross and helped to set the stage for what followed.

I get both the brother's in this situation. Sam is angry because Dean full on knows what a deal like this does to someone left behind and he feels absolutely helpless. Dean regrets his choice but he didn't make it to hurt Sam and is terrified. Both of them suffer for it.

S3 suffered because the original plan was for Sam to do something to save Dean. Once the writer's strike happened and the plan shifted to Dean landing in hell with no way for Sam to help him, then it colors everything that came before. Sam's anger looks useless now and just petty. This isn't helped along any by giving Sam no real room to grieve, to process, to have anything that wasn't just constant movement because they had so little time up until Dean was dead. Any time they could have spent being honest with each other was either skipped or spent bickering instead to the point were even the fans were like 'enough!'.

Even then, S3 wouldn't have been such a problem if in S4 we got to understand Sam better and they found a way for him to kill Lilith without murdering his character.

ETA since this isn't long enough - Keep in mind that after John's deal, Dean, as messed up as he was, still had Sam to keep focus on. For Sam, the one person he'd always had, even if he didn't always want it or even took him for granted, was going to be gone. Not just gone but eternally tormented and Dean becoming something he knew his brother hated. The one constant in his life ripped away.

Despite everything, I do have a lot of empathy for Sam in S3. I still remember what it felt like watching the finale live. Too bad they took all that and burned it the following season.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Airmid

ahrtee · January 20, 2020

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Just because characters are heroes doesn't mean that they don't have to at least have to consider bad options in bad situations, even if they find a way to not have to do those bad options. Sometimes there isn't a noble option - sometimes one gets crappy choices and has to go with the less crappy one that causes the least amount of harm overall.

Dean had enough guilt over the guy who died in his place in Faith. I can't imagine him willingly an knowingly sacrificing someone else.

Something that no one, ever, seemed to mention (or remember) is that Lilith was after *them*. Instead of sacrificing an innocent to get themselves out of it, all they had to do was tell Lilith "OK, You got us." Now she might not have spared everyone anyway, but, since they've always managed to weasel their way out (excuse me, "find another way") every time, wouldn't you think they'd at least give it a try? At least to get Lilith away from the town. Everyone knows if it was Sam or Dean being threatened, the other one would willingly give himself up to save him.

Airmid · January 20, 2020

@ahrtee I would just think that Dean wouldn't be up for killing an all the way human innocent, period. In that matter, he had a better compass than Sam did at this point given how extreme Sam's thinking had been getting - especially since this is directly after Mystery Spot and whatever that cracked loose. I haven't seen it for a while, so I'm not sure if Sam would have been able to go through with it himself. There's a huge difference between being interested in a plan and the actual gory execution of the whole thing.

I'm not sure they would have felt that they could have bartered with Lilith given that Dean didn't trust demons at all, and Sam wouldn't have wanted Dean close to Lilith in anyway. It would have been nice to bring it up, along with why they didn't all at least attempt to flee as soon as they got the demon out of Henriksen - the sheriff had the right idea. Too bad he got a bullet in him for his trouble.

Let's also not forget that Nancy actually does volunteer herself for Ruby's spell [not sure I could] which does give a feeling about just how cornered they all were. You'd think they would have had something more in the works before this point.

Jus in Bello was always a hard one for me because, at the end of the day, they were always doomed. It was written with the concept that crossing lines is necessary to get Sam to a certain point after Dean's death along with the whole 'Dean's weak, it's why they all died doing the plan he wanted' line of thinking. While the filming, acting, atmosphere of the episode is great, I dislike it on this level.

tessathereaper · January 20, 2020

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

- Sam had demon's blood in him and had messed up his tendencies from his childhood [both brothers do, just differently, at least in earlier seasons], of course he's more corruptible than average. We had just seen him earlier this same season outright murdering a demon and her meatsuit for not getting the answer he wanted and willing to listen to a demon. He later had some other issues and is dragged back from the edge by Dean until his death.

- The fact that they didn't sacrifice Nancy is used against them, especially Sam, as everyone died in that station not named Winchester. Now, due to Ruby's allegiances, whether this would have still happened regardless is up for question, it was held over the brothers, especially Sam.

- Just because characters are heroes doesn't mean that they don't have to at least have to consider bad options in bad situations, even if they find a way to not have to do those bad options. Sometimes there isn't a noble option - sometimes one gets crappy choices and has to go with the less crappy one that causes the least amount of harm overall.

Not saying they should have sacrificed Nancy, or it would have changed the eventual outcome, but the show, at that point, was more firm on showing consequences until that got thrown under a bus. Lilith found out where they were because they sent the demons back instead of outright killing them. I'm sure it crossed both of their minds, as well as many viewers that perhaps everybody alive except Nancy would have been a better outcome than everybody dead if Nancy was going to die anyways. They tried their best with the knowledge they had in that moment and utterly failed.

[And to be snarky, they failed us because they had a chance to kill Ruby and didn't take it].

The problem I've always had with this line of thinking is that neither of them asked to be saved by their loved one hawking themselves to hell and neither of them should have to say thank you. There's other more honest and loving things to say, IMO at least.

To Dean's credit - it was his raw grief that caused his deal, so it made it understandable. John however spent his last few minutes alive not to comfort his son but to shift the burden onto Dean. His whole speech to Dean is gross and helped to set the stage for what followed.

I get both the brother's in this situation. Sam is angry because Dean full on knows what a deal like this does to someone left behind and he feels absolutely helpless. Dean regrets his choice but he didn't make it to hurt Sam and is terrified. Both of them suffer for it.

S3 suffered because the original plan was for Sam to do something to save Dean. Once the writer's strike happened and the plan shifted to Dean landing in hell with no way for Sam to help him, then it colors everything that came before. Sam's anger looks useless now and just petty. This isn't helped along any by giving Sam no real room to grieve, to process, to have anything that wasn't just constant movement because they had so little time up until Dean was dead. Any time they could have spent being honest with each other was either skipped or spent bickering instead to the point were even the fans were like 'enough!'.

Even then, S3 wouldn't have been such a problem if in S4 we got to understand Sam better and they found a way for him to kill Lilith without murdering his character.

ETA since this isn't long enough - Keep in mind that after John's deal, Dean, as messed up as he was, still had Sam to keep focus on. For Sam, the one person he'd always had, even if he didn't always want it or even took him for granted, was going to be gone. Not just gone but eternally tormented and Dean becoming something he knew his brother hated. The one constant in his life ripped away.

Despite everything, I do have a lot of empathy for Sam in S3. I still remember what it felt like watching the finale live. Too bad they took all that and burned it the following season.

Yeah Dean had Sam to focus on, as in "save him or kill him" after John's deal, I actually think that's worse.

Airmid · January 20, 2020

6 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah Dean had Sam to focus on, as in "save him or kill him" after John's deal, I actually think that's worse.

Did John's deal set the stage for what Dean did? Yeah, it helped it along. But, at that point, they didn't know demons were souls with the humanity tortured out of them. While grieved, Dean had a mission and his still human brother. Sam got the same kind of weight - save Dean or watch him die and pass into eternal torment. Dean had to fight to save them from Azazel, Sam was fighting to try to save them from demons.

Both of these are terrible situations, but, even with all the other crap Dean had going on, he should have known better. At least when this season was live, there was more empathy towards Sam and some deriding of Dean's choice because while fueled by grief and love, there was selfishness to it, too. Yes, John programmed him to always take care of Sam, but was that really what caused this choice or that Dean just couldn't cope at all with Sam being dead?

These are problems that never really get addressed. S3 gets turned on it's head with little time to create the new story and then S4 happens with Dean on the side of angels and Sam just driving himself into the ground past the point of redemption.

Neither John or Dean's deal were something to be thankful for and neither came out of a place of actually being for the other person they were saving.

gonzosgirrl · January 20, 2020

29 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Neither John or Dean's deal were something to be thankful for and neither came out of a place of actually being for the other person they were saving.

I disagree. Even with John, though he burdened Dean with practically his dying breath, gave up his life for his son's. And Dean gave up his for his brother. His brother who wanted to live, who wanted a different life, who (at least at that point) had told Dean he was heading back to that life when 'this was all over'. Indoctrination to look after his little brother aside, he chose to give Sam that chance. Was there a somewhat selfish (though different) reason on both their parts? Sure. But to say that neither of them came from a place of being to save a loved one's life at all? I can't get behind that.

It's the same circular argument about Dean saving Sam via Gadreel. Based on the info he had at the time, he was saving a person who wanted to live. It wasn't selfish, not in my opinion, nor out of any 'fear of being alone'. He already proved he was willing to lose Sam* when Sam told him that's what he wanted (Swan Song). That's why I say he should have told Sam immediately afterward about Gadreel. If Sam then decided to eject him and die and told Dean this live and in person, a) Dean would have abided his wishes, and b) no fucking way would Sam have chosen that.

*He was also willing to kill Sam rather then let him go on soulless (nobody will ever convince me he wasn't on his way to do just that in Appointment in Samarra when he believed he'd failed Death's test, before Death appeared and agreed to retrieve Sam's soul anyway). Even as far back as When The Levee Breaks, he was willing to let Sam die rather than become a monster. So yeah, the whole saving Sam because he was afraid to be alone thing just doesn't hold water.

Edited January 20, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

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