“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

13 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Spoiler

 

You didn't miss it because he didn't phrase it that way.  This is Dabb's exact wording for anyone who hasn't read the interview in the link and think that mountains are being made out of molehills:

"when you’re in a world with Chuck and Sam, both of whom are God-like in their own ways, having Eileen there to offer some real world, boots on the ground balance is helpful for that. It really helps to add a normal person’s perspective..."

 

 

Spoiler

On thinking about it more, I suppose Sam and Chuck really are both God-like. If God-like means being judgey, self-righteous, arrogant little brothers who get off on having power over others.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

From @gonzosgirrl in the bitter spoilers thread.  No spoilers mentioned

I think it has to do with set access.   I remember a reviewer during s8 reviewing taxi driver said Dean needed more to do.  Then with ep 21 she was suddenly convinced that Dean had a part to play, when he had even less to do in that episode.  I always wondered if she got her hand slapped.  It just seemed odd that she suddenly changed her tune. 

Alice Jester, who runs Winchester Family Business used to be on the list for screeners.  But stopped getting them.   TBH, I have no idea why.  I just remember her complaining that she didn't give one.

 

Jester posted some negative articles about the writing. She just thought she was too big a deal to be removed from the access list. 

The remaining "media" for the show are bloggers anyway, more "respected" types that used to cover it many years ago have moved on long ago. 

And the writers themselves live on twitter either way where every non-flunky is swiftly blocked and ignored. They live in a praise-echo-chamber there. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And the writers themselves live on twitter either way where every non-flunky is swiftly blocked and ignored. They live in a praise-echo-chamber there. 

Yup. The sycophans.

[Airmid]

On 1/13/2020 at 7:42 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I think Gamble lusted after Sam and took some potshots at Dean but generally didn`t much care.

JMO - but Dean actually had some major things happen under Gamble's watch that were positive. He dealt with Death in S6, actually learned and had character growth about how people had a time to go, even if it's not what he wanted because it upset the natural order of things, and earned enough respect that Death got Sam's soul even though he failed.

He was the one who turned himself into a walking weapon against Eve - pretty forward thinking there. Plus, he was the one to kill the Phoenix [and it was with Sam's work that they were able to get the ash, so he definitely wasn't useless here, they both had important roles.] 

He was the one who mainly dealt with Death again in S7, was the one who tried to appease him, and got Death to help them even when the horseman didn't have to.

Even with all the loss he had suffered, he was portrayed as being calculating about a way to save Sam while Sam was locked up and in bad shape instead of the self-disregard and recklessness he had earlier [and would come later in the series].

He was the one, along with Cas who confronted big daddy bad at the end of S7 and earned a free trip to Purgatory, which at least Carver used to make him a badass for however long that lasted. 

I definitely agree that Gamble had a Sam thing going on which gimped her time as show runner in a bad way, and I don't like portions of what she did, but I don't think she did terrible with him either. Honestly? If they had announced that she was taking over for S15 over Dabb, I would have watched the season premier live.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And the writers themselves live on twitter either way where every non-flunky is swiftly blocked and ignored. They live in a praise-echo-chamber there. 

And IMO, a lot of that praise comes from the Destiel segment of fandom on Twitter.

From what I've  seen, they all want Destiel(the romantic version) to be the end game for the two characters.

IDK, maybe they think that by sucking up to Dabb and his flunkies,  they will be rewarded in that way.

And who knows with Dabb. I doubt that he could or would get away with giving it to them in an overt manner; but just ending it with the two characters together in any way would be fodder for them until doomsday.

Taking the rest to SPN ending thread...

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Airmid said:

JMO - but Dean actually had some major things happen under Gamble's watch that were positive. He dealt with Death in S6, actually learned and had character growth about how people had a time to go, even if it's not what he wanted because it upset the natural order of things, and earned enough respect that Death got Sam's soul even though he failed.

He was the one who turned himself into a walking weapon against Eve - pretty forward thinking there. Plus, he was the one to kill the Phoenix [and it was with Sam's work that they were able to get the ash, so he definitely wasn't useless here, they both had important roles.] 

He was the one who mainly dealt with Death again in S7, was the one who tried to appease him, and got Death to help them even when the horseman didn't have to.

Even with all the loss he had suffered, he was portrayed as being calculating about a way to save Sam while Sam was locked up and in bad shape instead of the self-disregard and recklessness he had earlier [and would come later in the series].

He was the one, along with Cas who confronted big daddy bad at the end of S7 and earned a free trip to Purgatory, which at least Carver used to make him a badass for however long that lasted. 

I definitely agree that Gamble had a Sam thing going on which gimped her time as show runner in a bad way, and I don't like portions of what she did, but I don't think she did terrible with him either. Honestly? If they had announced that she was taking over for S15 over Dabb, I would have watched the season premier live.

Being reminded of all this makes me even sadder at what the show has turned into.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And IMO, a lot of that praise comes from the Destiel segment of fandom on Twitter.

From what I've  seen, they all want Destiel(the romantic version) to be the end game for the two characters.

I don't really get how that would be remotely possible or even a good outcome for the characters. No offense to Destiel shippers here ( sorry @catrox14!) but I could buy a connection that could turn romantic around seasons 4-6 and possibly around seasons 8-9. That being said since season 11 Dean and Cas have barely had any meaningful interaction. I don't just mean in the romantic/shipper way but as actual friends that want to be in each others presence. If Dabb and Co. went there it would most definitely be fanservice at this point.

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don't really get how that would be remotely possible or even a good outcome for the characters. No offense to Destiel shippers here ( sorry @catrox14!) but I could buy a connection that could turn romantic around seasons 4-6 and possibly around seasons 8-9. That being said since season 11 Dean and Cas have barely had any meaningful interaction. I don't just mean in the romantic/shipper way but as actual friends that want to be in each others presence. If Dabb and Co. went there it would most definitely be fanservice at this point.

Unfortunately since fanservice for a very select few appears to be all these very weak-willed producers are wont to do, I'd no longer discount some pulled out of the ass Destiel-adjacent ending, which would very much suck in the hands of these producers/showrunners. And I say that as someone who long ago used to be a huge fan of Destiel.

But at the same time I come from the old school of slash fiction where one didn't expect fan fiction to become canon. I mean, seriously, if you're looking for a canonical gay relationship to invest in, then watch a show that has a canonical gay relationship. They're out there, so why aren't you watching them?

There are reasons I'm no longer a fan of Destiel, but primarily it's the fact that, as you said, these two guys don't really have a relationship anymore, and haven't for years. There's nothing special between them short of being two characters, among a variety of characters, who are on the same show.

So yes, if Dabb decided to throw in some kind of Destiel-adjacent ending, it would very much come out of nowhere and be all weird. Which is probably why he'd do it because anything he does is going to be weird.

[Myrelle]

After seeing all the attention that Dabb is giving the Sam shot Chuck sl, my bitterness cup runneth over today.

I mean if Dean had shot him I bet the bullet would have been removed in the premiere and there would have been zero repercussions from it.

And with Berens penning this one, I'm dreading the Purgatory stuff now, too.

 

[Bergamot]

Regarding Dabb's latest interviews on Episode 9:

Spoiler

 

Reading what Dabb has to say about the next episode and the rest of the season has made me so bitter. And the bitterest joke of all is Dabb claiming that Sam and Dean are being split up in the episode so that they can each be the "star" of their own story. I have absolutely no problem with them each having a separate story, but let's take a look at what each story is about.

Here is Dean's story: Dean and Castiel are going to "redefine their friendship a little bit in light of what’s happened especially earlier this season".

Here is Sam's story:“Sam has been carrying a burden: ‘I have this connection to God, what do I do with it? How can I make it work for us? Is it going to be a thorn in my side for the rest of my life?’ And that’s a question that gets answered in episode 9,” Dabb says.

Of course, Dabb also states that this episode is the "pivot point" for the whole season, that "every episode after it will be deeply affected by it” and that "everything that happens going forward happens because of the things that happen in Episode 9".

So let's take a guess. Are these huge, significant things that are going to happen, the  "pivot point" for the whole season, going to be connected to Dean redefining his friendship with Castiel "a little bit", or are they going to have to do with Sam figuring out how to use his connection to God? And in light of this, how can we believe that Dean is going to be an equal protagonist? And why is this too much to ask for? There is no good answer.

Incidentally, here is the definition of protagonist: 
"The protagonist is at the center of the story, makes the key decisions, and experiences the consequences of those decisions. The protagonist is the primary agent propelling the story forward, and is often the character who faces the most significant obstacles."(Just to be clear, being a faithful, supportive appendage to your very important brother does not fit the definition of being a protagonist.)

The show has two main characters. In Dabb's own words, both Sam and Dean are the stars of the show. Without Dean Winchester, and Jensen's portrayal of the character, Supernatural simply would not exist. So again, why is it too much to ask that Dean be written as an equal protagonist in the show?

 

 

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Regarding Dabb's latest interviews on Episode 9:

  Hide contents

 

Reading what Dabb has to say about the next episode and the rest of the season has made me so bitter. And the bitterest joke of all is Dabb claiming that Sam and Dean are being split up in the episode so that they can each be the "star" of their own story. I have absolutely no problem with them each having a separate story, but let's take a look at what each story is about.

Here is Dean's story: Dean and Castiel are going to "redefine their friendship a little bit in light of what’s happened especially earlier this season".

Here is Sam's story:“Sam has been carrying a burden: ‘I have this connection to God, what do I do with it? How can I make it work for us? Is it going to be a thorn in my side for the rest of my life?’ And that’s a question that gets answered in episode 9,” Dabb says.

Of course, Dabb also states that this episode is the "pivot point" for the whole season, that "every episode after it will be deeply affected by it” and that "everything that happens going forward happens because of the things that happen in Episode 9".

So let's take a guess. Are these huge, significant things that are going to happen, the  "pivot point" for the whole season, going to be connected to Dean redefining his friendship with Castiel "a little bit", or are they going to have to do with Sam figuring out how to use his connection to God? And in light of this, how can we believe that Dean is going to be an equal protagonist? And why is this too much to ask for? There is no good answer.

Incidentally, here is the definition of protagonist: 
"The protagonist is at the center of the story, makes the key decisions, and experiences the consequences of those decisions. The protagonist is the primary agent propelling the story forward, and is often the character who faces the most significant obstacles."(Just to be clear, being a faithful, supportive appendage to your very important brother does not fit the definition of being a protagonist.)

The show has two main characters. In Dabb's own words, both Sam and Dean are the stars of the show. Without Dean Winchester, and Jensen's portrayal of the character, Supernatural simply would not exist. So again, why is it too much to ask that Dean be written as an equal protagonist in the show?

 

 

I wish we could put this post on a billboard outside Dabb's office window. 

And I simply cannot wait for Jensen Ackles to be involved in a project that has nothing whatsoever to do with Jared Padalecki either.

[gonzosgirrl]

Please, tell me some more how Sam/Jared is not the Golden Child here. They may even give Jack the world-save at the end, but there is no question who is favored by this regime. Even if he's fucking up, the story is still revolving around him. Blech. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Please, tell me some more how Sam/Jared is not the Golden Child here. They may even give Jack the world-save at the end, but there is no question who is favored by this regime. Even if he's fucking up, the story is still revolving around him. Blech. 

Spoiler

And, of course, Dabb gives Berens the most "pivotal" episode of the season. 

I'm dreading tonight's episode.

Absolutely dreading it.

[Aeryn13]

I`m dreading it as well. Though I do think 

Spoiler

the pivotal change that affects all episodes coming after this is gonna be something Dabb already gave away around Comic Con or shortly thereafter. Chuck will get his full powers back in this episode.

 

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m dreading it as well. Though I do think 

  Hide contents

the pivotal change that affects all episodes coming after this is gonna be something Dabb already gave away around Comic Con or shortly thereafter. Chuck will get his full powers back in this episode.

 

Spoiler

I think it will be God taking away their abilities.  I'm sure that Sam will relearn everything in an episode or two while big dumb, mouth-breathing Dean will have to be spoon fed.

 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Please, tell me some more how Sam/Jared is not the Golden Child here. They may even give Jack the world-save at the end, but there is no question who is favored by this regime. Even if he's fucking up, the story is still revolving around him. Blech.

Until someone else comes along and saves the day... in which case the story might revolve around Sam for a while until he fulfills his role as the screw-up, and then someone else gets to be the hero... as we saw in season 10 and 11,*** 12 and 13...^^^ probably 14 through this season also, considering that I'll be surprised if Sam gets to have much to do with solving the current crisis the writers had him start. Maybe he'll get to throw a sword deus ex machina to whoever actually does the world saving if he's lucky.

I'm really, really not seeing how a story revolving around a character being a complete screw up is somehow a good thing. In my opinion, it pretty much means the writers see the character as an idiot at best, complete screw-up more likely ...One who generally has to be saved by big brother.###

In which case I would rather the story not revolve around Sam at all.

It seems to me that the big complaint with the Michael story was that Dean didn't get to save the day and was made to look like an idiot even though the arc revolved around him ...pretty much what has happened to Sam for the last how many seasons now? So why is it somehow awesome when Sam gets that role, but an insult when Dean gets it?

*** (somewhat, since Dean was also a major character in those seasons, but he got to be the one or at least one of the ones to save the day in both also. Sam was just the screw up or was nowhere to be found during the conclusion.)

^^^ And in at least 3 of those seasons, the person doing the saving was Dean.

### Almost every season, there is speculation on how Sam will get to save the day in the end - as there was with Amara and how Sam would supposedly take over and be the one to stop her - and it never happens. It didn't happen in season 10. It didn't happen in season 11. Season 12 was a mess and iffy, considering the big kill went to Jodi. It didn't happen in season 13 either, since it was Dean who killed Lucifer - who has pretty much stayed dead, despite all of the speculation that he would be back and erase Dean's win.

Now Nick did come back, but that was mainly to make Sam look like an idiot, and then Jack killed him. And sure Jack killed Michael rather than Dean, but Sam didn't do anything either. And that story did revolve around Dean and someone else killed the bad guy (Michael). Every one seemed to hate that, because Dean didn't get to kill Michael, but that's pretty much every story Sam has had since season 9. Sam doesn't get to vanquish the bad guy either, and on top of that he's made to screw up royally to get them to that point. Sam isn't a "Golden Child" in my opinion - that's most likely Jack if anything. Sam is generally more of a plot conduit.

[gonzosgirrl]

@AwesomO4000 you know I admire your thoughtfulness when it comes to this neverending 'argument', but I just can't see it the way you do. I guess I let outside opinions bother me (though they don't influence me), but the general perceptions out there do bug the snot out of me, and they just aren't what you see. And now we have Dabb himself calling Sam 'God-like'* (and sorry, he was not referring to both of the Winchesters - there isn't enough yoga in the world to twist into that pretzel).

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm really, really not seeing how a story revolving around a character being a complete screw up is somehow a good thing.

It's certainly been good for the actor. And if Dean 'screwing up' got  Jensen/Dean the story lines that Jared/Sam gets, I'd co-sign that in a heartbeat.

 

*Without spoilers, he calls Sam and Chuck 'god-like' (disregard the stupidity of Chuck being god 'like') and needing normal, human Eileen for balance, meanwhile Dean... exists.

Edited January 16, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

51 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In which case I would rather the story not revolve around Sam at all.

I'll cosign that, *if* they give the same stories (and even the consequences) to Dean.  That way, maybe both Deanfans and Samfans will be happy.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

That way, maybe both Deanfans and Samfans will be happy. 

I'm not sure, because as I mentioned above, the Michael arc was for a while about Dean - and I'm not saying it was done well, here, but what story arcs have been done well recently? - and the fans still didn't seem to be happy, because Dean didn't get to end it. My point was that Sam hasn't really ended his story arcs for years now - generally someone else does.

So for me, Dean has gotten a story arc or two like Sam's arcs, but fans generally didn't like that either. And all of Sam's arcs are like that. And Dean even got to kill Lucifer in his. If that had been Sam's arc, I'm sure Sam would've somehow screwed it up and made Lucifer even more powerful before someone else killed him (oh wait, that's pretty much what did happen in that arc.... nevermind.)

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if Dean 'screwing up' got  Jensen/Dean the story lines that Jared/Sam gets, I'd co-sign that in a heartbeat.

And you'd be welcome to them. I'm tired of Sam being the perpetual screw up, who never gets to atone for or resolve the problems he gets saddled with causing. If you would like that kind of trashing of Dean's character (as I feel Sam's has been trashed), more power to you. But it was clear to me - well even more clear - that Sam was still going to be used mainly as a plot device for other characters and storylines that go nowhere, or scenes the writers imagine in their fanfics when they had Sam get killed by Nick. For me, any argument of the writers showing Sam as being even a good hunter got thrown out the window with that one. Sam is pretty much whatever they need him to be for that scene, plotline, etc. rather than an actual realized character at this point. In my opinion anyway.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And now we have Dabb himself calling Sam 'God-like'* (and sorry, he was not referring to both of the Winchesters - there isn't enough yoga in the world to twist into that pretzel).

I guess that I am influenced by Buffy being my first real fandom. I learned from that fandom that showrunners lie. They'll say all sorts of things in an interview to keep the fans talking, but in the end, it's what's onscreen that counts for me.

Carver could say all he wanted that he was writing about "reality vs perception" and how Sam supposedly made the "mature choice," but that's not what he put onscreen, and his own episodes contradicted those statements. And not just a little, but pretty emphatically.

And I'm not even sure how calling Sam God-like at this point is even a compliment. Have you seen what Dabb has done to God's character lately? Is Chuck at this point even remotely likeable, or a character we should be rooting for? He's pretty much screwing everything up and starting apocalypses... oh, wait, I guess that is like Sam after all.  *headdesk*

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure, because as I mentioned above, the Michael arc was for a while about Dean - and I'm not saying it was done well, here, but what story arcs have been done well recently? - and the fans still didn't seem to be happy, because Dean didn't get to end it. My point was that Sam hasn't really ended his story arcs for years now - generally someone else does.

So for me, Dean has gotten a story arc or two like Sam's arcs, but fans generally didn't like that either. And all of Sam's arcs are like that. And Dean even got to kill Lucifer in his. If that had been Sam's arc, I'm sure Sam would've somehow screwed it up and made Lucifer even more powerful before someone else killed him (oh wait, that's pretty much what did happen in that arc.... nevermind.)

Well, we're never going to make everyone happy.  But most of the complaints I've heard about the Michael, Deanmon and Purgatory stories weren't about how bad the story was for Dean's character, but about how they were dropped like a lead balloon without ever having anything come out of them--which, if what you're saying about Sam screwing up, obviously isn't true of Sam's storylines.  I think Deanfans would have been happier to have a bad ending to any of those storylines rather than having them suddenly disappear as if they never happened.  

I appreciate that you have an entirely different perspective on, well, just about everything than I do, and I often enjoy seeing the other side.  But in pretty much all the time I've been on this site, I've rarely seen anyone else say that Sam "always" screws up, and always will, no matter how good he looks at the time.  IA that there have been many story lines that don't paint Sam in the best light (and you have to admit that goes for Dean as well!) but I don't really see any particular pattern the way you seem to, and I see way more times when he's been lauded for his part, even if he has screwed up--he gets appreciation for trying to fix things, or rising above it, neither of which are given to Dean when he screws up.   

Most of my complaints here have been more about Dean's lack of importance to the stories, not how he's badly treated by the writers (except being ignored/made to play the fool.)  I would be happy if there were a storyline that showed Dean screwing up and facing consequences, because that would mean that at least he'd done something worth mentioning.  JMO.

 

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In which case I would rather the story not revolve around Sam at all.

 

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if Dean 'screwing up' got  Jensen/Dean the story lines that Jared/Sam gets, I'd co-sign that in a heartbeat.

 

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'll cosign that, *if* they give the same stories (and even the consequences) to Dean. 

Ha! Yes, I agree, I would co-sign that as well.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm really, really not seeing how a story revolving around a character being a complete screw up is somehow a good thing.

I'm not sure I can help you with this, because your way of looking at the show and the characters, to be honest, does not make any more sense to me than this does to you. As I've said before, two of my favorite storylines for Dean are when he sold his soul for Sam, and when he took on the Mark of Cain. Both of which started with Dean making a terrible choice, and neither of which ended with a triumphant "win" for him. But I loved these stories. I understood why Dean made the choices he did, even if he was wrong, and I loved him for the way he dealt with and lived through the consequences.

Part of it, I think, is what I was saying before about needing Dean to be an equal protagonist in the story. Being at the center of the story, making decisions that propel the action forward, facing the consequences of those decisions and the obstacles that arise as a result. To be the protagonist (and let me be perfectly clear, I am not saying he needs to be the SOLE protagonist, but at least an equal one) is not the only thing I find necessary for a good Dean story, but it is the bare minimum that is needed. Otherwise what's the point? I see no reason whatsoever that the writers on the show should not have been able to always give us this.

If you want an example where the writers did however fail to give us this, here's one: "Swan Song". Here's another one: the Trials. In neither of these stories did Dean make any egregiously wrong choices. He was brave and loyal and a good brother. If all that mattered to me about a story is that Dean must never screw up, I ought to have loved those stories. But you know what? I hated them, HATED them, because Dean was not an equal protagonist. Because the writers had taken Dean out of the story.

And THAT is what was the real, crucial problem with the resolution of Michael story. Not that maybe Dean made mistakes. Not the awkward and grudging way the story was handled all along by the writers -- although good writing is important. Not the way the story ended without Dean being triumphant and winning handily over Michael -- a good ending is also important, but we all know that sometimes the Winchesters achieve at best a Pyrrhic victory. But because once again, the writers took Dean out of the story. And it has happened too many times on this show.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Bergamot

[7kstar]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I'm not even sure how calling Sam God-like at this point is even a compliment. Have you seen what Dabb has done to God's character lately? Is Chuck at this point even remotely likeable, or a character we should be rooting for? He's pretty much screwing everything up and starting apocalypses... oh, wait, I guess that is like Sam after all.  *headdesk*

The issue is that Dabb isn't doing either Dean,  or Sam any favors.  And if they follow the pattern God will not be the true bad guy either.  They think they are being clever but I'm not really caring one way or another what they are doing with their supposedly leads of the show.  Soon it will be over but will I even care? 

Wasn't season 7 where they decided to kill off everyone?  So to repeat that cycle won't be interesting because it's already been done.  I wasn't surprised at the end of 14, nor was I excited about it.  This show is doing what I didn't want it to do.  Going out in a painful way.  I guess if you were here to watch Jack or Nick you'll be happy.  But I doubt any Dean or Sam fans are thrilled.  What Dabb has done to God, I don't really care.  He's not scary.  He's a brat.

[ILoveReading]

56 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

the Michael arc was for a while about Dean -

This was my problem with the Michael arc.  It wasn't about Dean.  Jensen played Michael but the story really didnt' involve Dean much. 

The first ep we didn't even see Dean.  It was a 3 short scenes shoe horned into the ep with no direction.  Even Jensen didnt' know which way to turn with the character.  Ep 2, I will admit was better, but again we saw Dean for literally 10 seconds. (if that).  It did set up something interesting stuff, but it was dropped for now reason.  Then Berens threw out the story by making it about Kaia.  Michael was taken out handly by Ninja Sue.

Then we had no follow up.  The Scar branded Dean as the bad guy with one half hearted line of defense.  Dean says he's too weak to defeat Michael in which the camera directly focuses on Sam while he's saying.

Episode 4 Dean seemed more upset about the AU people.

The we had Michael's so called plan to drive Dean crazy that lasted about 30 seconds, and was dropped after that for sick dying Jack ep.

The main scene in ep 9 the was given to a guest star and Jensen got two minutes of screen time.  The Nilishm, which Sam was the one that actually locked Michael up.

Dean was branded as weak and quitting when he wanted to sacrifice himself, then Michael got out and possessed Rowena for the Jack confrontation.  The in the follow up ep, Dean was literally not mentioned.  Rowena got more follow up than Dean.

If Michael lead to bad things happening to Dean, bring it.  anything would have been better than Dean being sidelined in his own story.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

As I've said before, two of my favorite storylines for Dean are when he sold his soul for Sam, and when he took on the Mark of Cain. Both of which started with Dean making a terrible choice, and neither of which ended with a triumphant "win" for him.

I can see your point.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. It's not the lack of win that annoys me. There's a difference between not having a triumphant win and having a huge, earth-endangering loss. As you said, we understood why Dean made the choices he did. The narrative was generally sympathetic with both of these choices Dean made, and in both cases he was generally not said to be at fault in the end (in the deal case, by Castiel and in the mark's case, by Chuck.) I also thought that Dean did help to defeat Metatron, even if he did die while doing it.

And I guess that's the main difference for me. When Sam messes up, the narrative is seldom sympathetic. We don't generally get the entire story as to why Sam made the choices he did. Or if we do - like in season 8 when Sam didn't look for Dean - the narrative doesn't take his side (Cue "Sam hit a dog" jokes.) So when Sam doesn't get a win, and usually a big loss instead, it's generally worse.

But that's just my opinion, and I understand that.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

If Michael lead to bad things happening to Dean, bring it.  anything would have been better than Dean being sidelined in his own story.

I can understand that.

That's how I felt about the Gadreel storyline.

[Harleycat]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But in pretty much all the time I've been on this site, I've rarely seen anyone else say that Sam "always" screws up, and always will, no matter how good he looks at the time.  IA that there have been many story lines that don't paint Sam in the best light (and you have to admit that goes for Dean as well!) but I don't really see any particular pattern the way you seem to, and I see way more times when he's been lauded for his part, even if he has screwed up--he gets appreciation for trying to fix things, or rising above it, neither of which are given to Dean when he screws up.   

Most of my complaints here have been more about Dean's lack of importance to the stories, not how he's badly treated by the writers (except being ignored/made to play the fool.)  I would be happy if there were a storyline that showed Dean screwing up and facing consequences, because that would mean that at least he'd done something worth mentioning.  JMO.

When exactly was Sam not a screw up who Dean had to take care of in the series? The difference is that Dean is kind to Sam, he always takes the responsible on himself and tells Sam that he did his best. Sam is different from Dean that way, he doesn't try to make things better for Dean. 

The few times Dean has expressed disappointment in Sam Sam has always emotionally manipulated him, saying that he isn't going to hunt anymore or be Dean's brother anymore, and so Dean stopped doing that. The writers never let Sam grow up, that is essentially the problem with the character. He is always the immature brat who the team has to save just for him to be resentful of them for saving him again.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

 

 

Ha! Yes, I agree, I would co-sign that as well.

 

I'm not sure I can help you with this, because your way of looking at the show and the characters, to be honest, does not make any more sense to me than this does to you. As I've said before, two of my favorite storylines for Dean are when he sold his soul for Sam, and when he took on the Mark of Cain. Both of which started with Dean making a terrible choice, and neither of which ended with a triumphant "win" for him. But I loved these stories. I understood why Dean made the choices he did, even if he was wrong, and I loved him for the way he dealt with and lived through the consequences.

Part of it, I think, is what I was saying before about needing Dean to be an equal protagonist in the story. Being at the center of the story, making decisions that propel the action forward, facing the consequences of those decisions and the obstacles that arise as a result. To be the protagonist (and let me be perfectly clear, I am not saying he needs to be the SOLE protagonist, but at least an equal one) is not the only thing I find necessary for a good Dean story, but it is the bare minimum that is needed. Otherwise what's the point? I see no reason whatsoever that the writers on the show should not have been able to always give us this.

If you want an example where the writers did however fail to give us this, here's one: "Swan Song". Here's another one: the Trials. In neither of these stories did Dean make any egregiously wrong choices. He was brave and loyal and a good brother. If all that mattered to me about a story is that Dean must never screw up, I ought to have loved those stories. But you know what? I hated them, HATED them, because Dean was not an equal protagonist. Because the writers had taken Dean out of the story.

And THAT is what was the real, crucial problem with the resolution of Michael story. Not that maybe Dean made mistakes. Not the awkward and grudging way the story was handled all along by the writers -- although good writing is important. Not the way the story ended without Dean being triumphant and winning handily over Michael -- a good ending is also important, but we all know that sometimes the Winchesters achieve at best a Pyrrhic victory. But because once again, the writers took Dean out of the story. And it has happened too many times on this show.

Bergamot... I agree that s 3-4 and MoC were good storylines for Dean that came out of "mistakes" on his part or decisions he made that ended up having negative unforeseen repercussions and he dealt with the responsibility of those repercussions. Saying yes to Michael was the latest and biggest of these decisions. Despite the problems with s 14 after Death's visit in Nihilism it appeared that Dean would be grappling with the consequences finally. Then of course Ouroboros happened and the sea6literally fell apart into a hot mess of whiplash inducing bad writing involving Jack's teen angst, Nick's road trip, matricide, Jack's nervous breakdown and chuck's ritualistic sacrifice fantasy. it's comedic that these writers think they are good.

Replying to comments on mid-season premiere regarding Dean needing to apologize to Cas...

Cas withheld intel to protect Jack who was dangerous and that got Mary killed. Dean had every right to be angry and he had every right to continue to be angry about it for as long as it took for him to trust Cas again and forgive him. Nobody else gets to choose how we grieve or how we heal or how we move on when somebody we trusted betrays us so deeply that they no longer lhave our trust; they also cause the death of a loved one by their actions.

#Let Dean Mourn. #Let Dean Have Emotions.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the current episode thread:

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

I'll add to that:  people are allowed to be angry.  To be unforgiving, if the offense is big enough (even with people you love.)  You can *ask* for forgiveness, hope for it, pray for it, but no one has the right to *demand* it and be pissed if they don't get it.  Cas lost Dean's trust over several years, not just for one thing (though that was probably the final straw).  He always forgave before, but sometimes it's just too much.  That's what Sam did way too often, especially in seasons 4-5:  "I said I'm sorry.  Why are you still angry?  Why don't you trust me?" as if words, even sincerely said, can make up for betrayal immediately.  He certainly didn't forgive Dean immediately for Amy, or Gadreel, and Dean let him be angry without demanding immediate forgiveness. 

Being angry is human.  Remember there's a reason that "to forgive is divine."   And most especially, NO ONE should be made to apologize for not forgiving immediately.  No one should be made to feel guilty for not forgiving immediately.  And no one should be forced to forgive before they're ready, just to keep the peace. 

I have to disagree with you on the highlighted part. Dean actually did pretty much demand "forgiveness" in a way. Well, he told Sam he could be angry, but that he "didn't have to be a bitch about it," in the case of Amy. (Although actually Sam was being pretty decent as far as I could tell, but *shrug*). In other words, Dean was trying to dictate how Sam could be angry. And that was pretty much the first time that Sam had seen Dean since he'd walked away after finding out about Amy, and Dean was annoyed that Sam hadn't forgiven him yet. Dean's comment came pretty quickly after the incident. Dean even forced that they work together when they met up, saying that he wasn't leaving the case, so they might as well work together - don't worry, it'll just be working together... except when it wasn't and Dean demanded Sam not be a bitch.

In my opinion that paralleled Sam telling Dean that Dean could be as angry as he wanted with Sam, but that Dean needed to let him have input if they were going to work together on cases.

I actually don't see all that much difference between the incidences.

And the Gadreel situation was pretty much the same. Dean left, but the first time that met back up "Sharp Teeth," Dean was ordering Sam around (he pretty much told Sam to take care of the deceased werewolf, secondhand - as Sam will take care of this.) And then instead of apologizing, he said it was "somebody changing the playbook" and the Dean literally said "I just think maybe we need to put a couple Ws on the board and we get past all this." How is that not demanding forgiveness on some level?

I don't think Sam had to just "get past all this" if he wasn't ready to do so, yet Dean was pushing... and would push again in the next episode.

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But if he's trapped he's still alive he just can't write or change anything.  His creation and his rules are left in the status quo.

If there has to be symmetry and the light being trapped means darkness runs amuck, than shouldn't the opposite be true if darkness is trapped.  That light would run amuck.  That certainly didn't happen.

Sam should have at least questioned it before giving up.

That would have meant Sam couldn't be the one to drop the ball - literally as was said by Castiel's Cat on the other thread - and move the plot along (by maybe screwing up yet again.)

Sam's usual hopefulness in the face of overcoming odds was one of his few good traits left after the Caver years took most of his positive traits away, but Dabb made sure to get rid of that, too.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I have to disagree with you on the highlighted part. Dean actually did pretty much demand "forgiveness" in a way. Well, he told Sam he could be angry, but that he "didn't have to be a bitch about it," in the case of Amy.

Somehow I knew you'd disagree.  

Dean didn't demand forgiveness, at least not immediately.  He let Sam walk away after Amy and didn't go after him,  He asked if they could work together on the case (kind of like Sam saying that he and Dean could work together as colleagues) because they were both there.  He told Sam not to "be a bitch about it" first because of the message from Ellen (it hadn't occurred to him to stand up for himself before that) and second, because it *was* interfering with the working together as colleagues.  It wasn't that he couldn't be angry, it was not being professional in this case.  

But I know we'll never agree about anything to do with either Gadreel or Amy, so I think we can just drop it.  

 

[DeeDee79]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Dean didn't demand forgiveness, at least not immediately.  He let Sam walk away after Amy and didn't go after him,  He asked if they could work together on the case (kind of like Sam saying that he and Dean could work together as colleagues) because they were both there.  He told Sam not to "be a bitch about it" first because of the message from Ellen (it hadn't occurred to him to stand up for himself before that) and second, because it *was* interfering with the working together as colleagues.  It wasn't that he couldn't be angry, it was not being professional in this case.  

But I know we'll never agree about anything to do with either Gadreel or Amy, so I think we can just drop it.  

 

This is very true. The episode transcript supports this as well:

DEAN:
You're pissed, okay? And you've got a right.

SAM:
Yeah, damn straight.

DEAN:
But enough's enough.

SAM:
Says who? Look, I'll work this damn case, but you lied to me, and you killed my friend.

SAM turns and walks away. DEAN walks after him.

DEAN:
No, I put down a monster who killed four people, and if you didn't know her, you'd have done the same thing.

SAM:
I did know her, Dean.

DEAN:
Yeah, which is why you couldn't do it.

SAM stops.

DEAN:
Look, I get it. There are certain people in this world, no matter how dangerous they are, you just can't.

SAM turns to face DEAN.

SAM:
Don't pull that card! That's bull. Look, if I've learned one thing, it's that if something feels wrong, it probably is!

DEAN:
Usually, yeah. But killing Amy was not wrong. You couldn't do it, so I did. That's what family does – the dirty work. And I woulda told you, eventually, once I knew that this whole "waving a gun at Satan" thing was a one-time show. I think it's reasonable to want to know that you're off the friggin' high dive, Sam. You almost got us both killed, so you can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch.

He didn't ask for forgiveness. He agreed that he had a right to be angry, his Lucifer hallucinations were making it hard to trust his judgement because he was having a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction and he was making it difficult to work on the case and save lives because he was too busy showing Dean how pissed off he was. Sam was a gigantic child the entire episode and I wished that Dean had been the one to walk away this time. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I've heard about the Michael, Deanmon and Purgatory stories weren't about how bad the story was for Dean's character, but about how they were dropped like a lead balloon without ever having anything come out of them--which, if what you're saying about Sam screwing up, obviously isn't true of Sam's storylines.

What I mean by that is that Sam screws up, but he doesn't get to follow up... once he screws up, his part in the arc is over - except maybe some blame - and someone else gets to take it from there. Even with the Gadreel storyline - where Sam didn't do the screw up for once - Sam's role ended up being reduced while Gadreel took the sacrificing hero role. Sam ended up talking Gadreel up before ending up knocked out in a ditch somewhere for the finale. None of the stuff talked about in the beginning of the season went anywhere... it was all dropped for Gadreel's story.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

because it *was* interfering with the working together as colleagues.  It wasn't that he couldn't be angry, it was not being professional in this case. 

Sam was being pretty professional in my opinion. All he said was that they should go to the cemetery - even asking Dean if that should be the next move - instead of talking about something else. And it wasn't any different than what happened on the case in "Fallen Idols," in terms of Sam complaining about the working the case conditions.

That was my point - they were both pushing, imo.

But I'll agree to disagree with you on this.

3 hours ago, Harleycat said:

The difference is that Dean is kind to Sam, he always takes the responsible on himself and tells Sam that he did his best. Sam is different from Dean that way, he doesn't try to make things better for Dean. 

I disagree. That was definitely the case in season 4, but Sam was very forgiving of Dean in season 3 after he made the deal. Sam not only forgave him fairly quickly, he went out of his way to make things better for Dean, letting him have extra fun and ultimately doing Christmas for Dean even though it was hard for Sam, too.

Sam also forgave Dean fairly quickly when they got back together after Amy, too. At least in my opinion he did.

I don't remember Dean telling Sam he did his best in season 5... and especially not under the influence of the mark in season 10. MoC Dean wasn't at all kind or supportive of Sam in season 10, and he didn't take the responsibility on himself either.

So we definitely don't agree here... even if I do agree with your first point about the writers turning Sam into an idiot.

Quote

The few times Dean has expressed disappointment in Sam Sam has always emotionally manipulated him, saying that he isn't going to hunt anymore or be Dean's brother anymore, and so Dean stopped doing that.

Just my opinion here:

The time that Sam wasn't going to be brothers anymore was when Sam was angry with Dean. If Dean was disappointed in Sam then, he didn't have a whole lot of reason to be, in my opinion, since he was the one to screw up in that case. (and not with the Gadreel initial possession - I was fine with that, ironically - but with the lying.)

And Dean did actually disown Sam as well (in season 5) - basically told Sam "goodbye and good riddance. Good luck with that Lucifer wanting you to be his meatsuit thing." (ahrtee's right, probably too strong a wording there. Dean did suggest they split up and so basically no longer be the family they were and the rest does pretty much apply) So Sam's supposed manipulation in that case - which was more of a mutual agreement, imo - apparently didn't work very well as emotional manipulations go. The only reason Dean changed his mind was because of what Zachariah showed him in "The End's" future verse.

And then when Sam did get taken back, he said he would do his best to earn back Dean's trust, and he worked pretty hard after that to do so.

I thought Sam was fairly understanding in season 7 overall as well (crappy "Yellow Fever" not included.) He was pretty supportive of Dean in Dean's grief.

I also disagree that Sam is never grateful. He was pretty grateful to Dean in season 6.5 and 7, also in season 11. Even in the aforementioned season 3.

Sam was pretty crappy after Gadreel, I'll admit, but: Carver years. I swear it was Carver's goal in those first two seasons to make Sam look as badly as possible.

Edited January 17, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

He didn't ask for forgiveness. He agreed that he had a right to be angry, his Lucifer hallucinations were making it hard to trust his judgement because he was having a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction and he was making it difficult to work on the case and save lives because he was too busy showing Dean how pissed off he was.

Which with your interpretation was pretty much the same as what happened in "Fallen Idols." Sam pretty much said the exact same thing then for the same reasons - in that case because Dean was insisting they leave the case before it was over, because he was too busy being pissed off with Sam.

Which is why I compared the two episodes.

[ahrtee]

36 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Dean did actually disown Sam as well (in season 5) - basically told Sam "goodbye and good riddance. Good luck with that Lucifer wanting you to be his meatsuit thing."

Um, no.  Sam said he didn't think he should be working until he got his head straight, and Dean agreed with him (Sam was surprised, and even said "I was expecting a fight.")  Then he called and said "no, I want back in" and Dean didn't immediately say "sure, come on back!  All is forgotten and forgiven!"  He told him that he thought they were weaker when they were together and that the bad guys would use their connection against them.  That's the honest truth.  It's not the same as disowning him or blowing him off.  

 

36 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And then when Sam did get taken back, he said he would do his best to earn back Dean's trust, and he worked pretty hard after that to do so.

Fallen Idols is actually the main reason why I got mad at Sam for insisting on being forgiven immediately.  This was *the very next episode* after saying he was grateful that he and Dean were working together again and he wouldn't let him down, and the first thing he did was start complaining that Dean was putting him on probation and treating him like a child.  TBH, after a major loss of trust, I thought putting on "training wheels" and watching him closely is perfectly normal, and insisting on being treated not just like an equal but someone smarter to listen to was pushing things a lot (even if he was right this time).  There were other, less obnoxious ways he could have gotten Dean to listen.  

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

Being angry that your brother picked a demon over you and drove the point home by choking you vs being angry that your brother killed a monster that had killed several people and would than likely do it again isn't an apt comparison IMO. But mileage really, really, really varies I guess. 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, after a major loss of trust, I thought putting on "training wheels" and watching him closely is perfectly normal,

Adding to that Dean didn't even say that Sam needed the training wheels but that their teamwork did which was reasonable: 

SAM
So you think I need training wheels.

DEAN
No, 'we'. 'We' need training wheels, you and me. As a team. Okay?

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

There were other, less obnoxious ways he could have gotten Dean to listen.  

Oh I agree. That was a badly written episode. It didn't mesh with the rest of the season at all. Then again, the only episode of that writer that I liked was "Monster at The End..." (and that episode wasn't very Sam friendly either, in a way.)

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He told him that he thought they were weaker when they were together and that the bad guys would use their connection against them.  That's the honest truth.  It's not the same as disowning him or blowing him off.  

Okay, I guess I can see that interpretation, but "we should just pick a hemisphere. Stay away from each other for good." sounded pretty permanent to me. Dean didn't seem to have any plans to get back with Sam any time soon and those "we should just go our own ways" and  "Bye Sam" sounded pretty final to me.

And saying that they weren't stronger together was in a way kind of trashing their family ties.

You're right, though. It wasn't as bad as Sam saying he didn't want the family ties right then in season 9, so maybe my use of "disowning" was too strong. But you aren't going to see me say that Sam wasn't written as a jerk in season 9 - I consider that second half of season 9 as pretty much character assassination for Sam. For me it was victim blaming,*** especially with the retcon conversation in "King of the Damned." (Ross-lemming and Buckner of course. And sure Sam knew someone else was in his head and should have known that someone had bad intentions, because that's exactly what we saw in the first part of the season. *sarcasm*)

*** in the make the victim look less sympathetic, so that they deserve what happened to them sense. And the "real friend" Gadreel thing was just unforgivable in my opinion. It had the dual whammy of making Sam look judgemental AND talking up Gadreel at the same time. I hate season 9.

[AwesomO4000]

46 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Being angry that your brother picked a demon over you and drove the point home by choking you vs being angry that your brother killed a monster that had killed several people and would than likely do it again isn't an apt comparison IMO. But mileage really, really, really varies I guess. 

I wasn't comparing the actions. I was comparing the tactics. And the outcome of the episodes reflected that. Sam pretty much saw Dean's point of view - once Dean explained the "waving a gun at Satan" concern - and forgave him at that point. (Until Carver's retcon that is...I hate season 8  )

Dean understandably took a lot longer to forgive Sam.

It also wasn't killing Amy that was the entire problem. It was that Dean lied to Sam who was already having problems with what was true and what wasn't. But once Dean explained his position, Sam understood.

[Harleycat]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Okay, I guess I can see that interpretation, but "we should just pick a hemisphere. Stay away from each other for good." sounded pretty permanent to me. Dean didn't seem to have any plans to get back with Sam any time soon and those "we should just go our own ways" and  "Bye Sam" sounded pretty final to me.

And saying that they weren't stronger together was in a way kind of trashing their family ties.

The difference was Dean was sincere, or at least Jensen makes you think he was sincere, when he said those things. Sam just seems to be a manipulative jerk at times when it comes to Dean. He knew that they weren't really going to stop being brothers but let Dean think he meant it anyway.

[BlueSapphire]

2 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

The difference was Dean was sincere, or at least Jensen makes you think he was sincere, when he said those things. Sam just seems to be a manipulative jerk at times when it comes to Dean. He knew that they weren't really going to stop being brothers but let Dean think he meant it anyway.

Dean can also be a manipulative jerk, but that’s really hard to admit, isn’t it?

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

He knew that they weren't really going to stop being brothers but let Dean think he meant it anyway.

Oh, I think Sam really was pissed off when he said that. And understandably so in my opinion. Sam was probably hoping for an apology of some kind, even if it was just a "I'm sorry you got hurt, Sam." Instead he got a "well let's just put all of this behind us," after Dean had made the whole thing about himself... again. (Because he did in "Road Trip" also. ***)

So yeah, Sam angry made sense.

But then again I appreciate how Jared plays Sam way more than you do, so miles definitely vary on that one.

*** (Remember how I said above that season 9 seemed to be about trashing Sam's character? Well, it wasn't too great for Dean's either. I personally don't think Dean would've made it all about himself if the writers had been writing him in character. Dean's not apologizing for hurting Sam really did seem out of character for him... but angst, so... Did I mention I hated season 9? )

Edited January 17, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

For those keeping track, Dabbernatural has ticked off yet another box on the list of making sure Sam does/experiences everything Dean does. Shown an alternate future based on decisions he makes today. Check.

 

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For those keeping track, Dabbernatural has ticked off yet another box on the list of making sure Sam does/experiences everything Dean does. Shown an alternate future based on decisions he makes today. Check.

 

Does Dabb know that invites comparing the specific episodes? Because "The End" and this recent one are like matter and anti-matter - never the tween should meet.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Does Dabb know that invites comparing the specific episodes? Because "The End" and this recent one are like matter and anti-matter - never the tween should meet.

His whole SPN oeuvre is an Ode to the Short Attention Span. He does not give a flying fuck about the past because his fans don't give a flying fuck about it.

[7kstar]

I remember when I use to be in the middle.  I liked a good chunk of it.  I don't hate Jack.  Didn't have a problem with the actor playing the Demon at the beginning of the season.  His Demon was more interesting than Jack.

I do usually find a moment I like in each ep but watching the actors struggle to make the scenes work...not that fun for me.  Some of the stuff reminds me of the 90's fantasy...Hercules anyone, the live action version or Xena the warrior princess.  I lived through the worst special effects, Star Trek the original.

So I can suspend disbelief but when the past did it better with less...I wonder why isn't working better?

I can handle caregiver Dean but I do want more than that for the entire season.  The show I fell in love with was two brothers fighting against the odds and somehow winning.    You can add other elements but I'm not interested in a God that is all bad.  Nor do I want to see Sam do all of Dean's best stuff,

Sure Dean's given up, but I still don't get purpose of God being stuck on earth.  What did he really do other than look stupid and kill people that we enjoyed having around.  How did it really move the story along? 

I do think the idea could have been compelling...just wish they hadn't fail so badly for me.  I liked this show when I could be in the middle not going oh there's one good moment.  Nothing else..oh well...not much to see anyway.

[Bobcatkitten]

I have never been a destiel shipper. I don't ship anything at all. But at this point I wish they had given in overtly last season. Because now this final season in my opinion is being ruined by all this will-they-or-won't-they crap. I mean people analyze the lighting and spin every word and every action into something that isn't there. Just be done with it already so we can get back to my show!!!

[Harleycat]

51 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I have never been a destiel shipper. I don't ship anything at all. But at this point I wish they had given in overtly last season. Because now this final season in my opinion is being ruined by all this will-they-or-won't-they crap. I mean people analyze the lighting and spin every word and every action into something that isn't there. Just be done with it already so we can get back to my show!!!

In my mind Destiel had their moment back when Cas was temporarily human. After he returned to being angel he and Dean were definitely just friends for a lot of years, and not even particularly good friends. So it does seem silly for the writers to be trying to imply more then friendship now.

[Bessie]

52 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I have never been a destiel shipper. I don't ship anything at all. But at this point I wish they had given in overtly last season. Because now this final season in my opinion is being ruined by all this will-they-or-won't-they crap. I mean people analyze the lighting and spin every word and every action into something that isn't there. Just be done with it already so we can get back to my show!!!

 

I do wonder if this was the final hurrah for the destiel fans. I wouldn’t be surprised if they killed him off soon. I suspect Jack will fill the role of allowing J2 time off. Cas will either die or be sent off to the empty for a while or some other errand to get him offscreen. 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

In my mind Destiel had their moment back when Cas was temporarily human.

This is actually the reason why I said I could possibly buy a connection beyond friendship during that season. There is a definite power imbalance that would make a relationship unequal especially considering that Cas has beaten Dean bloody on more than one occasion and Dean was too weak to fight back. I'm not a Destiel shipper and I never have been but if they could have believably written a story about two close human friends that happened to be of the same sex developing feelings beyond friendship I wouldn't have called it a bad idea.

[Myrelle]

43 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I have never been a destiel shipper. I don't ship anything at all. But at this point I wish they had given in overtly last season. Because now this final season in my opinion is being ruined by all this will-they-or-won't-they crap. I mean people analyze the lighting and spin every word and every action into something that isn't there. Just be done with it already so we can get back to my show!!!

As ever, it starts with the writing and these hacks are doing nothing more than pandering to their shipping sycophants on tumblr and twitter. 

And they took things to new lows with this week's episode.

And lo and behold, all the Destiehellers who wanted to kick Dean's head in and labelled him an "abuser" for being meen! to poor, poor Castiel, now love Dean so much again and think the episode was the Best Dean Episode Ever. 🙄

Hypocrites.

And the writing encourages them.

I saw a post from a health care professional who quit watching after this one because she was so disgusted by the writing for this episode and questioned how this show could claim that it cares about being helpful and supportive of good mental health while continuing to do what they're doing to Dean and never acknowledging how hurtful it is.

She was really upset. And after reading the stuff that I've read on twitter through this whole Dean/Cas debacle, I can fully understand why.

I've only been on Twitter for this year and I have to say that IMO and from what I've seen in this one year, Twitter is mostly a cesspool of uninformed, ignorant people with childish mentalities,  no matter their age-and ESPECIALLY where mental health and loving relationships are concerned-and these are the people whom Dabb and co. are looking to please most.

This is so sad to me, but it's  also been quite an eye-opener for me, too, as far as this show that I used to love so much is concerned.

Maybe the actors on this show do so much to help people in that regard because they know how messed up and hurtful the actual writing on this show can be concerning those two things.

IDK, but I'm also wondering if the decision to pull the plug might have had something to do with that also.

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

It's written by frat boys for starrey eyed teenagers and women with fantasy-fueled ideas about what a gay relationship looks like (or any healthy relationship for that matter). I'm betting they wouldn't be so adamant for it if Jensen and Misha weren't two objectively gorgeous men. 

Frankly, it's a little disturbing that they can't see a man having loving feelings towards another man without it being sexual or romantic.  I saw a blogger who 'finally gets' Destiel after this latest episode. And comments about how if a guy prayed to a woman like that, it would be the greatest love story ever told. What if it were, say,  Jody speaking to Donna, after being sorry about a fight and fearing she might never get the chance to say sorry.  Would that make them lesbian lovers?  Only in fan fic.  Because they are both characters who have been written as straight ftom the start. As have Dean and Castiel. 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by gonzosgirrl