“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

DeeDee79 · August 10, 2019

32 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This is Perfect.

I couldn't have said it better.

I wholeheartedly concur!

DeeDee79 · August 10, 2019

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So then why doesn't someone on the show say this, then-that Dean friggin' cleans up everyone's messes?!

That's the kind of "tell" that I could at least live with.

Exactly this. People tend to say that if it wasn't shown then it didn't happen. I have yet to hear a character praise Dean for being right. If it has been done often it's been said sarcastically or with a "but" immediately following or worst of all Dean throwing the praise back on the person giving him said praise. Blech.

Myrelle · August 10, 2019

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, Dean's actually gotten redemption for stuff he never even did and wasn't blamed for. Multiple times.

And just because Dean blames himself for stuff and seems to think he needs redemption all the time doesn't mean that he actually does.

When?

And let the writers say this, too-if it's true to them, that is-which I don't believe it is.

AwesomO4000 · August 10, 2019

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So Sam's dive into the Box supposedly bought him redemption; his time in hell (and the Trialburculosis, and even the rabid disease in 11.1) he himself declared "cleansed" him; while Dean's time in Hell? Made him even more guilt-ridden. And everything he tried to do later to fix things was dismissed as being selfish/because he was afraid to be on his own.

The fact that Sam keeps feeling like he *needs* to be redeemed every few years has nothing to do with what the show has actually said (or shown); but they seem to think that Dean either doesn't need, doesn't want or isn't worthy of redemption. *sigh*

I think Sam thinking himself "cleansed" or redeemed is not the same interpretation I saw in what Sam said in "Defending Your Life." In my opinion, Sam said that he wasn't actually redeemed and never would be, but that he felt like he had paid enough to not feel so crappy about it. This is the actual dialogue (from the Superwiki transcripts):

Sam: I think I just don't... feel guilty anymore.
Dean: Come on.
Sam: Look, I don't know what to tell you, Dean. I mean, I've spent a lot of time feeling pretty crappy – like, my whole life.
Dean: What, you got a secret stash of happy pills?
Sam: Hell. ...Look, I'm not saying it's logical. I just... you know, I feel like I did a lot of stuff I should have felt bad for, and then I paid a lot of dues and came out the other side, you know?
Dean: And that worked? I mean, you really feel like your – your slate's wiped?
Sam: No. Nothing ever gets wiped. ...You know? Sometimes I see Lucifer when I friggin' brush my teeth, but, I don't know, I guess I just finally feel like... my past is my past, and I can move on with my life. You know, hopefully.
Dean: Easier said than done.
Sam: Not arguing that. (Emphasis mine)

And your argument that just because Sam feels he needs to be redeemed, doesn't mean that Sam actually does, equally applies to Dean in my opinion. I actually think it applies to Dean more, because I disagree that that the show hasn't shown that Sam needs redemption. It blames Sam for stuff all the time. The show generally usually shows that Dean doesn't deserve any blame, though, so just because Dean thinks he deserves the blame doesn't make it true.

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I have yet to hear a character praise Dean for being right. If it has been done often it's been said sarcastically or with a "but" immediately following or worst of all Dean throwing the praise back on the person giving him said praise. Blech.

I have heard characters say that Dean was right and express genuine regret while doing so... more than once. I don't remember a time when it's been said to him sarcastically at all, but I could be forgetting something.

26 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So then why doesn't someone on the show say this, then-that Dean friggin' cleans up everyone's messes?!

That's the kind of "tell" that I could at least live with.

Not me.

It would make me dislike Dean if the writers not only had Dean clean up everyone's messes and get praise from God himself and his sister, too, but make the other characters kiss his feet for it as well.

I think we had enough of a "tell" when Chuck entrusted Dean with the world with "(the Earth) will be fine. It has you (significant pause)... and Sam (to look after it)," implying that Dean is the one who fixes everything. (And that was a Dabb episode that was said in.)

12 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

When?

I gave 3 separate examples above: The end of season 7 when he sacrificed himself, when he was willing to blow up to stop Amara, and when he had to take on Michael... I could even include when Dean was willing to go to the empty, too, to that mix.

None of those things were deemed Dean's fault, but he was the one who either did or was willing to sacrifice to fix them.

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And let the writers say this, too-if it's true to them, that is-which I don't believe it is.

I'm actually not sure how much more explicit the writers could be on this point myself without having a character look at the audience and saying it. Castiel literally told Dean when Dean blamed himself for breaking the first seal that it wasn't his fault. There was no gray there, in my opinion. Later on there was a line about "don't you think you deserve to be forgiven?" with the neon sign being "yes, Dean absolutely deserves to be forgiven." Castiel told Dean that Dean had been right and that he should have listened to him in season 6, so again, nothing on Dean there either even though Dean felt depression and guilt about Castiel.

There was an entire arc in season 8 devoted to how Dean makes up scenarios in his head to blame himself for stuff he didn't do and isn't responsible for and specifically showed that Dean does this when it isn't actually his fault.

They had Sam tell Dean "I lied" and had him doing exactly the same thing as Dean said he would, so pretty much there was nothing for Dean to feel guilty about there either. Then the writers had Chuck explicitly say that the world would be fine with Dean as a demon - therefore Dean had nothing to feel guilty about in terms of that apocalypse either.

And it's fairly telling to me when the writers have Dean literally say that he feels guilty for everything and say (paraphrase) "The Lindbergh kidnapping? That's on me." they are acknowledging that Dean shouldn't really be feeling guilty about everything, but he feels guilty anyway.

I'm actually not sure how much more obvious they could be about it myself.

So I'm confused as to what the writers are supposed to be implying Dean needs redemption for. Everything I mentioned above they went out of there way to make sure it was known that Dean wasn't at fault. And they also most often show that the things Dean does feel guilty about, he really doesn't need to feel guilty about

And what they do seem to imply Dean should feel guilty about - like Gadreel - they usually not only walk it back almost completely, they generally make another character's actions worse and give them the blame instead and literally say as much in the text just in case we didn't get the message the first time from what the narrative showed.

Myrelle · August 10, 2019

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think Sam thinking himself "cleansed" or redeemed is not the same interpretation I saw in what Sam said in "Defending Your Life." In my opinion, Sam said that he wasn't actually redeemed and never would be, but that he felt like he had paid enough to not feel so crappy about it. This is the actual dialogue (from the Superwiki transcripts):

Sam: I think I just don't... feel guilty anymore.
Dean: Come on.
Sam: Look, I don't know what to tell you, Dean. I mean, I've spent a lot of time feeling pretty crappy – like, my whole life.
Dean: What, you got a secret stash of happy pills?
Sam: Hell. ...Look, I'm not saying it's logical. I just... you know, I feel like I did a lot of stuff I should have felt bad for, and then I paid a lot of dues and came out the other side, you know?
Dean: And that worked? I mean, you really feel like your – your slate's wiped?
Sam: No. Nothing ever gets wiped. ...You know? Sometimes I see Lucifer when I friggin' brush my teeth, but, I don't know, I guess I just finally feel like... my past is my past, and I can move on with my life. You know, hopefully.
Dean: Easier said than done.
Sam: Not arguing that. (Emphasis mine)

And your argument that just because Sam feels he needs to be redeemed, doesn't mean that Sam actually does, equally applies to Dean in my opinion. I actually think it applies to Dean more, because I disagree that that the show hasn't shown that Sam needs redemption. It blames Sam for stuff all the time. The show generally usually shows that Dean doesn't deserve any blame, though, so just because Dean thinks he deserves the blame doesn't make it true.

I have heard characters say that Dean was right and express genuine regret while doing so... more than once. I don't remember a time when it's been said to him sarcastically at all, but I could be forgetting something.

Not me.

It would make me dislike Dean if the writers not only had Dean clean up everyone's messes and get praise from God himself and his sister, too, but make the other characters kiss his feet for it as well.

I think we had enough of a "tell" when Chuck entrusted Dean with the world with "(the Earth) will be fine. It has you (significant pause)... and Sam (to look after it)," implying that Dean is the one who fixes everything. (And that was a Dabb episode that was said in.)

I gave 3 separate examples above: The end of season 7 when he sacrificed himself, when he was willing to blow up to stop Amara, and when he had to take on Michael... I could even include when Dean was willing to go to the empty, too, to that mix.

None of those things were deemed Dean's fault, but he was the one who either did or was willing to sacrifice to fix them.

I'm actually not sure how much more explicit the writers could be on this point myself without having a character look at the audience and saying it. Castiel literally told Dean when Dean blamed himself for breaking the first seal that it wasn't his fault. There was no gray there, in my opinion. Later on there was a line about "don't you think you deserve to be forgiven?" with the neon sign being "yes, Dean absolutely deserves to be forgiven." Castiel told Dean that Dean had been right and that he should have listened to him in season 6, so again, nothing on Dean there either even though Dean felt depression and guilt about Castiel.

There was an entire arc in season 8 devoted to how Dean makes up scenarios in his head to blame himself for stuff he didn't do and isn't responsible for and specifically showed that Dean does this when it isn't actually his fault.

They had Sam tell Dean "I lied" and had him doing exactly the same thing as Dean said he would, so pretty much there was nothing for Dean to feel guilty about there either. Then the writers had Chuck explicitly say that the world would be fine with Dean as a demon - therefore Dean had nothing to feel guilty about in terms of that apocalypse either.

And it's fairly telling to me when the writers have Dean literally say that he feels guilty for everything and say (paraphrase) "The Lindbergh kidnapping? That's on me." they are acknowledging that Dean shouldn't really be feeling guilty about everything, but he feels guilty anyway.

I'm actually not sure how much more obvious they could be about it myself.

So I'm confused as to what the writers are supposed to be implying Dean needs redemption for. Everything I mentioned above they went out of there way to make sure it was known that Dean wasn't at fault. And they also most often show that the things Dean does feel guilty about, he really doesn't need to feel guilty about

And what they do seem to imply Dean should feel guilty about - like Gadreel - they usually not only walk it back almost completely, they generally make another character's actions worse and give them the blame instead and literally say as much in the text just in case we didn't get the message the first time from what the narrative showed.

But what does anything of this get him as far as in your face heroics are concerned. We know where they stand with Sam. No matter what he does, he can be assured of a place in the heroics dept. in the end. Not so with Dean. Not in the same way or manner. No sir.

Sam will always be assured of a central place in the heroics-but not Dean-not the ever loyal sidekick.

His role is to support the Real and True Hero-and nothing more.

Let's see what they give us to end it.

That will be the true expression of what these writers think of each brother, IMO.

ahrtee · August 10, 2019

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And this is where we disagree, since in my opinion, they haven't all "been there, done that." Dean never has. When Dean broke the first seal, he was explicitly absolved of responsibility by Castiel. Sam, on the other hand was blamed by Castiel (and just about everyone else). When Dean was a demon and affected by the mark of Cain, once again he was explicitly absolved, this time by Chuck, while Sam was specifically blamed by Chuck. Dean similarly had no part in either catastrophic apocalypse Castiel caused.

And for me that's an important difference. Dean doesn't need redemption, not because he's unworthy of it, but because he didn't cause any of the problems and according to the actual text of the story doesn't have any blame for any of it.

None the less, Dean still got to sacrifice to stop more than one apocalypse and get redemption. At the end of season 7, Dean sacrificed himself - complete with heroic death and being sent to purgatory - even though he had no cause in that mess. With Amara, Dean was ready to sacrifice again even when he had no part in making that mess. When Dean said "yes" to Michael, he again was sacrificing to fix a mess not of his own making. Three times Dean got to save the world while never once having caused the problem to begin with.

I'll agree on breaking the seals (to a degree) because Dean had no idea what he was doing or that there would be any bad repercussions. Sam, OTOH, had been told by *all* the angels (and Pamela, and Dean, and pretty much everyone) that he was "going down a slippery path" and that it was dangerous and something he shouldn't do. In fact, the only one who told him it was a good idea was a demon. So I have no problem with him being blamed, although it didn't seem to stop him from ignoring advice later (or from being forgiven by Castiel and even God after Swan Song. Yes, that's what "redemption" looks like, not your brother/best friend/mother saying "it wasn't your fault," "you were right," or "I lied.")

However, Dean took on the MoC without listening to anyone. *He* was the one who brought the mark back into play. Without that, Sam wouldn't have had to figure out a way to fix it, and Amara would have stayed locked up. (Cain would probably still be happily raising bees and corn.) Therefore, Dean should have been the one to make the sacrifice to fix it, but he wasn't allowed his sacrifice, and therefore the blame moved to Sam for (again) not listening to advice and ignoring consequences, making him the focus of attention (even if bad.)

Everything Dean did while a demon (which, granted wasn't all that much, bad karoake aside) was absolved just like everything that Sam did while soulless was absolved. Not in possession of your right mind/body = not responsible for your body's actions, in the SPN world. That's why IMO Sam blaming himself so much for Kevin's death seemed way too self-serving. Why should that be worse than him getting the deputy (or bartender) killed while soulless? Or killing the hunter when he was possessed by Meg? And nobody ever mentioned Gadreel/Sam killing the first two names on Metatron's list, which, if the problem was Sam killing someone with his own hands, should have been equally distressing. Or didn't they count because they weren't friends? No, the entire reason was to make Dean into the bad guy who tricked Sam and made him do these horrible things.

Remember, it was Dean who allowed Gadreel to possess Sam, which is what lead to Kevin's death in the first place. Is that not a problem he caused? But it was Gadreel who got the redemption and heroic death that time, not Dean.

Dean *didn't* get a heroic death at any time--for one thing, he was still alive in Purgatory; and he didn't deliberately *choose" to go there. It was no more heroic than Adam being accidentally pulled into the pit when Lucifer fell in. With Amara, there was no choice--he was the only one who could get close enough to her. The fact that Sam agreed without whinging and trying to guilt him into finding another way just shows that even he understood that there were no other options. A sacrifice, yes, but not exactly a heroic choice. And, since he was the one who set Amara loose by taking on the Mark, yes, it *was* his place to put her back. But he didn't even get to do that.

I honestly don't understand your "Dean [implied by himself, without the others?] saved the world 3 times" statement , much less that he wasn't responsible. As far as I can see, all 3 (4, if you include Jack) shared pretty much equal blame with everything bad that's happened over the past 14 years--or none of them, if you consider that everything was designed and carried out by Chuck and was, therefore, inevitable. (Maybe their Free Will got them out of the messes, but Chuck was the one who wrote them all.)

In any event, it seems we disagree fundamentally on many things dealing with guilt and redemption, so I think we should just agree to disagree.

Edited August 10, 2019 by ahrtee

AwesomO4000 · August 10, 2019

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

However, Dean took on the MoC without listening to anyone. *He* was the one who brought the mark back into play. Without that, Sam wouldn't have had to figure out a way to fix it, and Amara would have stayed locked up.

Which is why Dean agreed to be the bomb. He didn't have to go through with it in the end, but he still was willing to make the sacrifice. Is it only considered redemption if he actually had to do it? For me the answer is no, being willing to do it is enough.

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Remember, it was Dean who allowed Gadreel to possess Sam, which is what lead to Kevin's death in the first place. Is that not a problem he caused? But it was Gadreel who got the redemption and heroic death that time, not Dean.

What problems? The show conveniently forgot most of them, turned Gadreel into a good guy, made Kevin's death a good thing in the end, and made Sam the bad guy instead for being mean to Dean... for which Sam didn't get any redemption either. As you said, Gadreel did. Sam had a part in Metatron being a problem, but he played no part in Metatron's defeat. Dean did play a part there, though. Even if Castiel did help, Dean sacrificed himself to keep Metatron occupied while Castiel found a way to defeat him. The only one who played no part at all and was completely shut out of any redemption was Sam.

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Dean *didn't* get a heroic death at any time--for one thing, he was still alive in Purgatory; and he didn't deliberately *choose" to go there.

But Dean chose to take on Dick Roman even though he knew it was extremely dangerous. Just because he didn't know he would end up in purgatory didn't mean that there wasn't a really good chance he might die, but Dean still did it and risked himself to save the world from Dick Roman. I don't understand how that isn't heroic.

And personally I don't understand purgatory myself. It was implied that Dean didn't eat while he was there. That would be impossible if he wasn't dead in some way.

Also in my opinion, Dean did die while fighting Metatron. Then he got turned into a demon - his worst nightmare - for his troubles. That could be considered redemption if you want to look at it that way.

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And, since he was the one who set Amara loose by taking on the Mark, yes, it *was* his place to put her back. But he didn't even get to do that.

I don't understand. Dean stopped Amara by convincing her not to destroy the world. How is that not stopping Amara and saving the world? And doing that even though God specifically said it was Sam's fault Amara was loose... for which Sam played no part - beyond being cheerleader - in stopping her.

And then Chuck gave Dean redemption personally afterwards, saying that the world had Dean to look after it, so it would be fine. I'm not sure what more redemption Dean should need from God than this.

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No, the entire reason was to make Dean into the bad guy who tricked Sam and made him do these horrible things.

I disagree. From what I saw, the main reason was to make Sam the bad guy who was unfairly angry at Dean for doing the same thing that he, himself, would - and then did - do, and Sam had to learn that lesson and admit he "lied."

For me, the writers were always with Dean on this or they would have made the consequences for Gadreel's possession much worse rather than making it turn out to be a fortunate thing that Gadreel was there to help them, and even a fortunate thing in the end that Kevin died.

It's hard for me to believe that Kevin dying was intended to be more than just temporary shock value when Kevin's being a ghost saved his mother from dying and then he was later sent to heaven.

In my opinion, that's what being on a character's side looks like... not like what happened with Sam in season 10 where Charlie's death was made to be ugly with no bright side to it and no reunion for ghost Charlie or shiny assent into heaven.

I thought the contrast was pretty overt myself.

So on this we will have to agree to disagree.

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I honestly don't understand your "Dean [implied by himself, without the others?] saved the world 3 times" statement , much less that he wasn't responsible. As far as I can see, all 3 (4, if you include Jack) shared pretty much equal blame with everything bad that's happened over the past 14 years-

And I don't understand your reasoning here when you, yourself, pointed out how it was mainly Sam's fault for not listening to the angels in season 4 and not listening to Dean in season 10.

And as I said, the question was whether the writers were holding Dean responsible, and I explained why, in my opinion, they weren't ...with them sometimes even explicitly stating that Dean wasn't responsible for causing the problem.

So yes, Sam got redemption for the season 4 mistake. How about all of the other mistakes he got saddled with at least partly if not entirely according to the writers? Amara, Metatron, the Jack debacle? Sam played little to no part in resolving any of these, so he got the blame and no part in the solution, never mind redemption.

And now Sam's yet again been made to be the main cause of another apocalypse. What does this make for Sam now? 3? 4?

Edited August 10, 2019 by AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000 · August 10, 2019

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But what does anything of this get him as far as in your face heroics are concerned. We know where they stand with Sam. No matter what he does, he can be assured of a place in the heroics dept. in the end. Not so with Dean. Not in the same way or manner. No sir.

Sam will always be assured of a central place in the heroics-but not Dean-not the ever loyal sidekick.

I see very little evidence of this myself.

As I said above, Sam got the "heroics" one time. And that was 9 seasons ago.

Sam was offscreen for Dick Roman's death while Dean was front and center. Sam was knocked unconscious for the fight with Metatron while Dean was again front and center. Sam was front and center in the season 10 finale, but Dean was the one who did the saving, while Sam caused another apocalypse. Dean was the one who went to stop Amara, while Sam was emotional support somewhere offscreen. For me, season 12's almost final episode was insulting, with Sam basically having to publicly admit he was an idiot, but please follow him anyway (which really did the other hunters have any other choice except to go against the BMoL who were slaughtering them?)

Sam does throw Dean the knife to help kill Lucifer in season 13, but it couldn't have been done without Dean's power up, so Sam was more support there. After it was partially Sam's fault again somehow that Lucifer was there to begin with.

So based on all of this history, I think it's very much in question as to what heroics Sam will play and whether he will even be involved, never mind having a "central place" in the heroics.

But I guess miles vary as to what is considered a central place in the heroics, because I certainly haven't see it in a long time.

Aeryn13 · August 10, 2019

52 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I see very little evidence of this myself.

As I said above, Sam got the "heroics" one time. And that was 9 seasons ago.

Sam was offscreen for Dick Roman's death while Dean was front and center. Sam was knocked unconscious for the fight with Metatron while Dean was again front and center. Sam was front and center in the season 10 finale, but Dean was the one who did the saving, while Sam caused another apocalypse. Dean was the one who went to stop Amara, while Sam was emotional support somewhere offscreen. For me, season 12's almost final episode was insulting, with Sam basically having to publicly admit he was an idiot, but please follow him anyway (which really did the other hunters have any other choice except to go against the BMoL who were slaughtering them?)

Sam does throw Dean the knife to help kill Lucifer in season 13, but it couldn't have been done without Dean's power up, so Sam was more support there. After it was partially Sam's fault again somehow that Lucifer was there to begin with.

So based on all of this history, I think it's very much in question as to what heroics Sam will play and whether he will even be involved, never mind having a "central place" in the heroics.

But I guess miles vary as to what is considered a central place in the heroics, because I certainly haven't see it in a long time.

I think most Finales didn`t really have heroics or even if they were supposed to, the execution was botched. I mean, the God-Amara climax was so lame and watered down with flower lady, when it all concluded, Dean was barely a footnote in it.

The entire Dick Roman thing concluded like the Season had: lamely.

Dean vs. Metatron wasn`t heroics, they kinda went to Cas in that episode. Dean just got his ass kicked. Then became a demon.

In the Season 8 Finale, Sam supposedly was set to have the heroics but then pathetic, co-depending Dean came in and convinced him not to. And that wasn`t played as unequivocally as when Sam convinced Dean to not go into the box. There, all sympathy was supposed to lie with Sam and against Dean whereas in the Season 8 Finale it was a lot of "oh, Dean is so weak, he stops Sam from being a hero".

They were barely involved in the Season 12 Finale which they both stumbled through as mostly bystanders.

The Season 13 Finale had the botched marionette fight which killed any and all heroics Dean supposedly could have had.

In Season 14, they stumbled through the Jack show which capped off with God suddenly being the villain. Btw, this invalidates him naming Dean (or both brothers) as some kind of guardians of the Earth.

How will it all end? No idea. But I`m far, far less optimistic about Dean`s role in it. With everything they killed coming back as a cliffhanger in the last Finale, I kinda think over the course of the Season Sam will get to re-kill everything Dean previously killed AND re-kill everything he previously killed. So more Zachariah stuff.

If they ripped off 5.22 somehow only this time Dean wouldn`t be replaced by tertiary character number 5 and play his role and him and Sam somehow did something really together where it is clear and obvious onscreen that participation was 50/50 and that saves the world/universe, they can both fall into a bad CGI hole and I`d consider that a win. (no spoilers, btw, just how I envision an equal heroics things would go),

Or do some cheesy fight at the end where both have God-defeating weapons that magically only work together and both stab him at the same time.

Anything in the ballpark of that.

7kstar · August 10, 2019

Well, I called it when I thought the Michael/Dean story would go nowhere, just like Demon Dean. Sure we got a few good moments and lately, that is all there is.

I'm really glad it is ending because I really didn't like season 14. So my main concern is will Sam and Dean really have something important to do or will it go to the characters they couldn't make us care about.

If Dabb had been in charge of the first 5 seasons, the show would have been canceled. I don't think he really gets the characters and his interviews are lame, IMO.

I can remember when I couldn't wait for the season to start. Now I feel like it's a yawn because I have to wonder how will he put both brothers on the sidelines once again.

Awesom04000 I love how you try so hard to show how much respect that Dean gets from the writers, but lately, I would say neither get any. Yes, I favor Dean and always will but I still want both brothers to have a major storyline. We do disagree on some points and I think it's been stated enough so I won't say anything more on the subject.

So my expectations are very low for the last season, maybe by having the bar so low...I might even enjoy it. It would be nice.

Edited August 10, 2019 by 7kstar
sentence didn't make sense

DeeDee79 · August 10, 2019

38 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

If Dabb had been in charge of the first 5 seasons, the show would have been canceled. I don't think he really gets the characters and his interviews are lame, IMO.

I completely agree with this. I would be interested in seeing how the show would be wrapped up if Kripke were back at the helm. Of all of the previous showrunners he had the most respect for the characters and as the creator he would care much more than Dabb about how their story is completed.

ahrtee · August 10, 2019

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I completely agree with this. I would be interested in seeing how the show would be wrapped up if Kripke were back at the helm. Of all of the previous showrunners he had the most respect for the characters and as the creator he would care much more than Dabb about how their story is completed.

Except Kripke thought of Dean as a loser (his original plan for him in WIAWSNB). But I think he had good advisors to tell him to pay more attention to how Dean was evolving; and more, he actually *listened* to them and allowed the character to grow/change. Later showrunners just took one aspect (whether bully, codependent loser, caregiver, horndog or fool) and clung to that. OTOH, Sam's character kept changing, sometimes episode by episode, and that didn't do him much good either. 😊

DeeDee79 · August 10, 2019

41 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Kripke thought of Dean as a loser (his original plan for him in WIAWSNB). But I think he had good advisors to tell him to pay more attention to how Dean was evolving; and more, he actually *listened* to them and allowed the character to grow/change.

Oh I agree with you regarding his original view of the characters. My point is that being the creator he was more invested in the characters and was open to Dean being portrayed in a broader way due to Jensen's talent. He didn't have the tunnel vision that Dabb has.

7kstar · August 10, 2019

43 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Kripke thought of Dean as a loser (his original plan for him in WIAWSNB). But I think he had good advisors to tell him to pay more attention to how Dean was evolving; and more, he actually *listened* to them and allowed the character to grow/change.

Kripke had flaws and admitted them. He wasn't really about characters, he was more about the urban legends and being on the road. But he did listen and he did admire both actors. I just wonder if he likes how the show has changed.

But we can't play the whatifs if he was still in charge because I don't know what he would have created pass season 5. I think he was really done after 5.

AwesomO4000 · August 11, 2019

20 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Awesom04000 I love how you try so hard to show how much respect that Dean gets from the writers, but lately, I would say neither get any.

Believe it or not, I don't entirely disagree with you here. Just because, for me, Dean gets a little more respect from the writers than Sam does, doesn't mean that I think he gets more respect than the writers' pet characters much of the time.

I, however, would even go farther than to say "lately," though. I think this has been happening since Carver took over myself. I haven't been shy about saying that I think Carver put many of his own original characters above both Sam and Dean story-wise and in terms of making them look heroic. Both Benny and Gadreel are the most obvious examples of this for me.

I thought Carver made Sam look horrendous in comparison to Benny, but for me, he didn't make Dean look much better. In my opinion, what Carver had Dean do - cut Benny off entirely - was not something Dean would actually do, and ironically he even showed that in reference to Castiel. It was odd for me that Carver showed how far Dean would go to get Castiel out of Purgatory (at the expense of being able to go home and get back to Sam much earlier) and showing how much Dean valued friendship, but for his pet Benny, Carver just had to make Benny look like the abused, much more loyal one of the partnership who got the raw end of the deal from Dean. I don't know about anyone else, but I came away thinking "what a jerk." (and also "Dean wouldn't do that") when Dean cut Benny off. I didn't like doing that and didn't remember ever having done that before concerning a non-Sam or Dean character in relation to Dean or Sam. I'd thought that Sam and Dean had been jerky to each other, but not in reference to some other character.

And that's why I can't really like Benny. Not because he wasn't a good character, because ironically I thought Benny had the potential to be an awesome character, but because for me there was too much in my face "see Benny is even more loyal than Dean is. Isn't he just awesome?" Because no, Sam and Dean are my favorite characters. I don't want them to be made to act terribly and/or out of character in order to make some other character look good. And I couldn't support that.

I hated Amelia, but even she got some of this preferential treatment in terms of Sam. Sam was made to look like a jerk by not showing up to end things properly with her, and then of course that (in my opinion, ridiculous) conversation Sam had to have with Meg (of all people) where Amelia was praised as Sam's "unicorn" (barf) and the one that got away. Sorry Carver, I didn't like Amelia and no amount of your pimping her is going to make me like her.

Gadreel got similar treatment with both Dean and Sam being shown treating him badly and having to learn the error of their ways and how poor Gadreel was actually just "misunderstood" and a "real friend" if only they would give him a chance. And perhaps annoyingly, Carver almost got me to believe that which just made me more angry as I figured out the manipulation.

There is a way to do that kind of thing without making the main characters be disrespected in the process. And that is why I loved Metatron so much. Metatron was a complete jerk. It was obvious that he was a bad guy, but for me his redemption was also earned, and not at the expense of making Sam and Dean look badly, but by Metatron actually learning how and where he'd gone wrong on his own. Huge difference there for me, and it shows that it can be done without sacrificing respect for the main characters.

So for me, what Dabb is doing now with showcasing Jack and Nick/Lucifer is actually just more of the same: writers taking over as showrunner and thinking that they are going to show everyone just how the show should be done and using their own pet characters to further that agenda. Unfortunately, with some exceptions (I liked season 10 and loved season 11) they aren't good at it, in my opinion, and what they want to turn the show into (for Carver, some kind of soap opera angst-fest and Dabb, a hunting is a cool thing that even young people can do with just the right amount of gumption plot-driven quagmire at times) in my opinion, isn't what the show should be about.

I understand your respect for the writing process and how difficult that process can be that you expressed over in the "Small Talk" thread, 7kstar, but for me, some things should be somewhat respected... and being true to the characters is one of them. Nothing takes me out of a story more than setting up a history of character development and then just ignoring it for the sake of plot. If writers can't - or won't - respect character development, and sometimes seem to scoff at the notion that that is even important, I have a harder time respecting their decisions.

People enjoy their favorite television shows for whatever reason, so a showrunner coming in and trying to show the audience that he/she knows better than them and that these are the real characters they should be rooting for rather than the characters the audience actually watches the show for is just going to look like conceit and go over badly in the end, in my opinion. And for me this is pretty much what both Carver and Dabb have often done at the expense of Sam and Dean.

7kstar · August 11, 2019

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I understand your respect for the writing process and how difficult that process can be that you expressed over in the "Small Talk" thread, 7kstar, but for me, some things should be somewhat respected... and being true to the characters is one of them. Nothing takes me out of a story more than setting up a history of character development and then just ignoring it for the sake of plot. If writers can't - or won't - respect character development, and sometimes seem to scoff at the notion that that is even important, I have a harder time respecting their decisions.

People enjoy their favorite television shows for whatever reason, so a showrunner coming in and trying to show the audience that he/she knows better than them and that these are the real characters they should be rooting for rather than the characters the audience actually watches the show for is just going to look like conceit and go over badly in the end, in my opinion. And for me this is pretty much what both Carver and Dabb have often done at the expense of Sam and Dean.

I can agree with this and just because I respect the creative process doesn't mean I won't say something is plain bad. I think I've been clear about how much I've hated season 14 and why.

I really liked Benny but hated how they got rid of him and twisted the relationship between Dean and Benny. I also hated what they did with Sam reaction to Benny as he was the first one to say that some monsters could be good. If you're going to have your character react against type you need to set a strong compelling reason and both Dabb and Carver suck at that.

DeeDee79 · August 11, 2019

52 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I really liked Benny but hated how they got rid of him and twisted the relationship between Dean and Benny. I also hated what they did with Sam reaction to Benny as he was the first one to say that some monsters could be good. If you're going to have your character react against type you need to set a strong compelling reason and both Dabb and Carver suck at that.

I somewhat agree with this but I think that Dabb is way worse at displaying character motivation than Carver was. Dabb doesn't care about fleshing out a story only showcasing his pet characters in a flashy way. Carver may have fallen short in regards to the reasoning regarding Sam's hatred of Benny but at least he was still writing for his mains instead of creating new characters that made the Winchesters irrelevant ( IMO ). I'd take Carver's style 100x over Dabb.

AwesomO4000 · August 12, 2019

6 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Carver may have fallen short in regards to the reasoning regarding Sam's hatred of Benny but at least he was still writing for his mains instead of creating new characters that made the Winchesters irrelevant ( IMO ).

Based on some of the writing Carver did for Sam, I wouldn't necessary call that a complete win.

I also thought that though maybe not with Dean, Carver did seem to try to make Sam irrelevant in comparison to some of the characters he created. He did introduce Benny the "better brother" for Dean ...Which interestingly did work, since on the board I posted on at the time, about half of the posters were ready for Sam to be killed off, so that Dean could hunt with Benny instead. I would call that making one of the leads irrelevant, myself, since half the fans were wishing Sam gone so Benny could take his place, and so therefor apparently Sam did not seem to be needed for the show / plot. And considering how irrelevant the Amelia soap opera Carver put Sam in was to the rest of the plot, I can kinda see why they might've thought him unnecessary.

Similarly I felt that Carver seemed to be trying to make Sam somewhat irrelevant in terms of Gadreel as well. He basically turned Sam into an incompetent hunter who couldn't take care of the bad guys and was constantly getting hurt or killed, thereby needing to be saved by Gadreel. By the end of that season, Sam wasn't needed at all except to champion Gadreel and even ended up knocked out during the big showdown while Gadreel got to make the big heroic sacrifice.

Things finally turned around in season 10 where Carver started writing relevant stuff for Sam to do again, but in season 8 and 9, in my opinion, he sure tried his best to make Sam fairly irrelevant to the story.

I get that miles will vary though.

ahrtee · August 12, 2019

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Based on some of the writing Carver did for Sam, I wouldn't necessary call that a complete win.

I also thought that though maybe not with Dean, Carver did seem to try to make Sam irrelevant in comparison to some of the characters he created. He did introduce Benny the "better brother" for Dean ...Which interestingly did work, since on the board I posted on at the time, about half of the posters were ready for Sam to be killed off, so that Dean could hunt with Benny instead. I would call that making one of the leads irrelevant, myself, since half the fans were wishing Sam gone so Benny could take his place, and so therefor apparently Sam did not seem to be needed for the show / plot. And considering how irrelevant the Amelia soap opera Carver put Sam in was to the rest of the plot, I can kinda see why they might've thought him unnecessary.

Similarly I felt that Carver seemed to be trying to make Sam somewhat irrelevant in terms of Gadreel as well. He basically turned Sam into an incompetent hunter who couldn't take care of the bad guys and was constantly getting hurt or killed, thereby needing to be saved by Gadreel. By the end of that season, Sam wasn't needed at all except to champion Gadreel and even ended up knocked out during the big showdown while Gadreel got to make the big heroic sacrifice.

Things finally turned around in season 10 where Carver started writing relevant stuff for Sam to do again, but in season 8 and 9, in my opinion, he sure tried his best to make Sam fairly irrelevant to the story.

I get that miles will vary though.

I do feel obliged to point out that making someone unlikeable is not the same as making him irrelevant.

[Synonyms of irrelevant: beside the point, not to the point, immaterial, not pertinent, not germane, off the subject, neither here not there, unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, tangential, extraneous, inapplicable; unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant, of no matter/moment, of little account, trivial, negligible, minor, trifling, petty, superficial]

Sam/Jared was front and center through most of seasons 8 and 9, even if some didn't like what he did/how he was written. He was the driving force for *all* the angst and drama, and pretty much the focus of all the major plotlines of both years, not just those about Benny (who actually only appeared in any "important" role in 3 episodes) and Gadreel (who only appeared occasionally onscreen as himself, not Sam, for a few minutes each time). By the second half of both seasons, both were out of the spotlight and Sam returned as hero, in the trials and the hunt for Metatron. In any event, Sam was not being replaced or even made "peripheral"--he remained the focus of the stories, with his reactions, his anger, even the heroics of "evicting" Gadreel by himself. Even if he didn't get all the "wins" you would prefer, he was hardly irrelevant.

I would say that Dabb has managed to make Dean "unconnected, peripheral, tangential and unimportant" to the storyline in most of season 12, and both brothers in seasons 13 and 14. With a few minor exceptions, their roles could have been (and have been) replaced with the MoL, Rowena, Mary, the WS, a few random guest stars (think of how many other people played Michael as long as/more than Jensen?) and, of course, Jack, while the focus of the plots switched from the boys to Mary, Nickifer, heaven and Jack. That's how you make lead actors irrelevant.

Edited August 12, 2019 by ahrtee
Rearranging for clarity.

AwesomO4000 · August 12, 2019

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Sam/Jared was front and center through most of seasons 8 and 9, even if some didn't like what he did/how he was written. He was the driving force for *all* the angst and drama, and pretty much the focus of all the major plotlines of both years, not just those about Benny (who actually only appeared in any "important" role in 3 episodes) and Gadreel (who only appeared occasionally onscreen as himself, not Sam, for a few minutes each time). By the second half of both seasons, both were out of the spotlight and Sam returned as hero, in the trials and the hunt for Metatron. In any event, Sam was not being replaced or even made "peripheral"--he remained the focus of the stories, with his reactions, his anger, even the heroics of "evicting" Gadreel by himself. Even if he didn't get all the "wins" you would prefer, he was hardly irrelevant.

I disagree.

Angst and drama is not the same thing as plot and relevance in my opinion. The fact that many viewers thought Sam could just be replaced by Benny - for me - kind of points to them thinking that he wasn't very necessary to the action. I'll admit things were more Sam-centric in the second half of season 8 and that he was the main focus then, but I disagree that Sam was the driving force for all of the angst and drama. Dean had his own angst arc that had nothing to do with Sam, because it was centered on Dean and Castiel and only them.

Season 9's drama only centered on Sam in the first half of the season, but even then it was mostly the driving force as you said for Dean's arc. All of the issues brought up for Sam's angst were summarily dropped, retconned, or both in the second half of the season. And unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Sam had little to do with hunting down Metatron until the last few episodes, and even that was peripheral, because it was mostly Castiel and Gadreel who did all of the leg work on that. Sam was helping Dean with Abaddon, but again he ended up having little to do with that either in the end except for one episode.

It was Castiel who investigated the angel deaths and who was involved with Metatron (in "Metafiction") and it was Castiel, Dean and Gadreel who confronted and fought Metatron. I'm not sure how Sam was a "hero" in the fight against Metatron when he was literally unconscious almost the entire time, arriving only to see Dean be mortally wounded and unable to do anything about it. Prior to that, his only role was to find Gadreel and make sure Gadreel was okay so that Gadreel could go to help fight Metatron, after talking up Gadreel to both Castiel (in "King of the Damned") and Dean (the "real friend" line). That Sam even had to say ridiculous stuff like that - that Gadreel was maybe just "misunderstood" and that he was a "real friend" - just goes to how Gadreel was played up in the end and it was Sam's main role to do that. Gadreel was very much in the spotlight in the second half of the season, even getting the heroic sacrifice to help in the fight against Metatron.

As many like to claim that Dean in season 5 could've been removed and everything have remained the same - even though I disagree - Sam in season 9 could have been replaced by some other impetus for Dean to become depressed and take on the mark of Cain. Sam played almost no other role that I remember that season. Jared isn't the same as Sam, so when Jared was Gadreel, that doesn't count as relevance for Sam. It goes towards the character of Gadreel, who in the end ended up being way more important in the fight against Metatron than Sam did. It would be one thing if Sam had somehow influenced Gadreel to turn over to their side, because at least that would have been a minor role, but I'm almost positive that it was either Castiel who played that role or Gadreel came to the conclusion himself.

The only even remotely heroic thing Sam got to do the entire season was, as you mentioned, evicting Gadreel, but that really had little to do with anything anyway, because Gadreel turned out to be a critical ally in the end, so what difference really did evicting him make? And for me, "reactions and anger" are peripheral. Dean was the focus of the story. He was the one interacting with Gadreel, and he was the one who got the mark of Cain which drove most of the action. Sam reacted to what was happening which in my opinion is not the same thing as actually doing something to affect the action.

I see complaints all of the time that when Dean gets emotional arcs that that's not really an important role to play, so I don't see why it should be important for Sam either, especially since there was no conclusion to Sam's angst. Sam's anger was all for nothing, and he was shown to be wrong for even being angry in the first pace. Additionally, part of what was involved in the emotional aspect wasn't even "Sam" interacting with Dean, but Gadreel.

DeeDee79 · August 13, 2019

18 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I do feel obliged to point out that making someone unlikeable is not the same as making him irrelevant.

[Synonyms of irrelevant: beside the point, not to the point, immaterial, not pertinent, not germane, off the subject, neither here not there, unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, tangential, extraneous, inapplicable; unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant, of no matter/moment, of little account, trivial, negligible, minor, trifling, petty, superficial]

Sam/Jared was front and center through most of seasons 8 and 9, even if some didn't like what he did/how he was written. He was the driving force for *all* the angst and drama, and pretty much the focus of all the major plotlines of both years, not just those about Benny (who actually only appeared in any "important" role in 3 episodes) and Gadreel (who only appeared occasionally onscreen as himself, not Sam, for a few minutes each time). By the second half of both seasons, both were out of the spotlight and Sam returned as hero, in the trials and the hunt for Metatron. In any event, Sam was not being replaced or even made "peripheral"--he remained the focus of the stories, with his reactions, his anger, even the heroics of "evicting" Gadreel by himself. Even if he didn't get all the "wins" you would prefer, he was hardly irrelevant.

I would say that Dabb has managed to make Dean "unconnected, peripheral, tangential and unimportant" to the storyline in most of season 12, and both brothers in seasons 13 and 14. With a few minor exceptions, their roles could have been (and have been) replaced with the MoL, Rowena, Mary, the WS, a few random guest stars (think of how many other people played Michael as long as/more than Jensen?) and, of course, Jack, while the focus of the plots switched from the boys to Mary, Nickifer, heaven and Jack. That's how you make lead actors irrelevant.

Exactly @ahrtee. That was the point that I was making regarding Dabb vs Carver.

Myrelle · August 13, 2019

On 8/12/2019 at 1:28 AM, ahrtee said:

I do feel obliged to point out that making someone unlikeable is not the same as making him irrelevant.

[Synonyms of irrelevant: beside the point, not to the point, immaterial, not pertinent, not germane, off the subject, neither here not there, unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, tangential, extraneous, inapplicable; unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant, of no matter/moment, of little account, trivial, negligible, minor, trifling, petty, superficial]

Sam/Jared was front and center through most of seasons 8 and 9, even if some didn't like what he did/how he was written. He was the driving force for *all* the angst and drama, and pretty much the focus of all the major plotlines of both years, not just those about Benny (who actually only appeared in any "important" role in 3 episodes) and Gadreel (who only appeared occasionally onscreen as himself, not Sam, for a few minutes each time). By the second half of both seasons, both were out of the spotlight and Sam returned as hero, in the trials and the hunt for Metatron. In any event, Sam was not being replaced or even made "peripheral"--he remained the focus of the stories, with his reactions, his anger, even the heroics of "evicting" Gadreel by himself. Even if he didn't get all the "wins" you would prefer, he was hardly irrelevant.

I would say that Dabb has managed to make Dean "unconnected, peripheral, tangential and unimportant" to the storyline in most of season 12, and both brothers in seasons 13 and 14. With a few minor exceptions, their roles could have been (and have been) replaced with the MoL, Rowena, Mary, the WS, a few random guest stars (think of how many other people played Michael as long as/more than Jensen?) and, of course, Jack, while the focus of the plots switched from the boys to Mary, Nickifer, heaven and Jack. That's how you make lead actors irrelevant.

IA with most of this, except that Sam/JP was given the Leader arc(no matter how it turned out) and it was, IMO, given far more focus from the writers than Dean/JA's Michael/Dean storyline in S14-and I've found this to be the case in almost every season, under every showrunner all the way back from the very beginning of the series-with S9 and 10 under Carver being the only exceptions to that rule. So is it any wonder that some Deanfans find Carver's reign as showrunner superior to the others-and yes, even Kripke's, for this fan.

And if some Samfans find Carver's era especially unfair to Sam/JP?-well all I can say again is multiply that feeling x 3 and you'll have an idea how some Deanfans have felt, only for over 3/4 of the entire series.

But Dabb has been the worst of the lot at creating unbalance between the two lead characters/main actors, IMO; and to some of us it truly feels as if the disrespect for the Dean character doesn't end with just the character, but includes the actor who portrays him also and to a ridiculous degree.

And to finish things off, I'll just reiterate that we'll see how much true "heroism"(meaning actually being heroic AKA acting as a genuine protagonist type of Hero AKA in more than strictly and only being written as a support character for OCs) he and his writing room will allow Dean to exhibit and possess in this the last season of the show, including and especially in the series finale.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Myrelle
revision

AwesomO4000 · August 13, 2019

27 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IA with most of this, except that Sam/JP was given the Leader arc(no matter how it turned out) and it was, IMO, given far more focus from the writers than Dean/JA's Michael/Dean storyline in S14-and I've found this to be the case in almost every season, under every showrunner all the way back from the very beginning of the series-with S9 and 10 under Carver being the only exceptions to that rule. So is it any wonder that some Deanfans find Carver's reign as showrunner superior to the others-and yes, even Kripke's, for this fan.

And if some Samfans find Carver's era especially unfair to Sam/JP?-well all I can say again is multiply that feeling x 3 and you'll have an idea how some Deanfans have felt, only for over 3/4 of the entire series.

For this Sam fan (though I also like Dean), this isn't an equal comparison, and your "no matter how it turned out" exception is the reason why. (I'll get back to this in a moment.)

And season 9 and 10 were not the only seasons focused on Dean, imo. There was season 3 and season 11 and most of season 4. If you want to apply the "no matter how it turned out" clause, then that also applies to Dean in season 4 and season 11. Not only was Dean a large focus of season 4 with a main peripheral character introduced just for him - two characters if you count Zachariah*** - Dean was the protagonist. The ONLY protagonist. Everyone else was evil, went down the wrong path, etc. etc.

A major portion of the season was written from Dean's point of view, with us only finding out about what Sam was actually doing over 2/3 of the way into the season. It's difficult for me to agree that a season is supposedly mainly focused on a character whose main motivating factor isn't known for most of the season and who does almost everything related to that motivation offscreen... and who isn't given the point of view either. Yes, Ruby was associated with Sam, but with the exception of 2 or 3 episodes, her screentime was much less than Castiel's and Castiel was the character who endured. I won't include season 5, though with the "no matter how it turned out" exception, in my opinion, it would also apply, but that still gives 3 more seasons on the Dean side.

And it isn't like season 6 and 7 focused entirely on Sam, either. There was Castiel's story and the Leviathans. Dean had his own arcs, too, with Lisa in season 6 and with Dick Roman in season 7, and if the argument that Sam had an arc and maybe I just didn't like it in season 8 and 9 applies, then I think it also applies to Dean there, too.

All of that aside, I don't know about other Sam fans, but my main objection to what Carver did to Sam in season 8 and 9 had almost nothing to do with Sam's arcs being in the background. Sure I hated the Amelia arc, because I thought it was stupid and had no business being on a show called "Supernatural," but my main objection to it - and all of the other crap (imo) that Carver had Sam do was that it was A) mainly out of character and B) served to make Sam look badly so that other minor characters could shine. And there was no thought given to making anything Sam did make any kind of sense or to explain why Sam behaved differently this time. Carver couldn't have been bothered to give even a couple of sentences to explain anything. He just trashed Sam's character and shrugged, because at least Benny (and later Gadreel) looked good or heroic or both in comparison.

And Dabb's leadership arc? How it turned out was a factor. Nevermind that the arc itself made absolutely no sense to me in terms of Sam's character - though that was huge in my opinion, because once again no real explanation was given or deemed worthy of consideration - but I knew from the moment it started how it would end, because that's what the writers do to Sam's character.

And that's something that Dean fans can't understand, because they don't do that kind of thing to Dean, and if they even start to go down that path - like say Dean in season 9 - it's not only generally reversed, it somehow ends up that Dean is the one who was wronged to begin with, and other characters are trashed character-wise in order to make that happen. That implication in season 5 that "Fallen Idols" supposedly made? Multiple that by about 5 or more over the course of the series for how Sam usually ends up being blamed for things others had a part in, but the writers only blame Sam for it.

And that's the thing that bugs me. I wouldn't care if Sam had a mostly supportive roll - I LOVED season 11, for example - but the writers can't just leave it at that. They have to make Sam the complete screw up and the "bad brother" who does mean things to Dean so that there will be tension and conflict. And in my opinion, that's not something Dean fans can really understand.

*** And there was also Alastair and Uriel.

Myrelle · August 13, 2019

Tbh and FWIW, any hope for any kind of equality in writing where it concerns the two main characters went out the window for good for me after S6-8.

And that's why mid 9-10 was such a breath of fresh air for this fan.

All that interests me now is the ending.

If the end8ng is good, I think that I can most easily ignore s12-14.

But if Dabb writes Dean as strictly and only the wind beneathe any OC's wings in the series finale, then we'll know exactly how he and his writer's room view and feel about the character and s15 will become just the last wasted season with Dabb as showrunner for this fan, here at the end of it all.

And that will be so sad, but at least it will be over.

Finally.

FlickChick · August 13, 2019

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Tbh and FWIW, any hope for any kind of equality in writing where it concerns the two main characters went out the window for good for me after S6-8.

And that's why mid 9-10 was such a breath of fresh air for this fan.

All that interests me now is the ending.

If the end8ng is good, I think that I can most easily ignore s12-14.

But if Dabb writes Dean as strictly and only the wind beneathe any OC's wings in the series finale, then we'll know exactly how he and his writer's room view and feel about the character and s15 will become just the last wasted season with Dabb as showrunner for this fan, here at the end of it all.

And that will be so sad, but at least it will be over.

Finally.

I can't express how little hope I have for an ending that is satisfactory for this Dean fan. When Jensen said that he wasn't comfortable with it; had to get used to it or understand it, what more do you need to know? I found it interesting that, while reading an article on the Arrow finale, the showrunner said that they changed the finale, because it didn't fit with how the main character would probably end it. Dabb, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about anyone's view except his own. He couldn't (apparently) even give the guys the ending they had decided on and that they wanted. Fuck Dabb!!!!

gonzosgirrl · August 13, 2019

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I can't express how little hope I have for an ending that is satisfactory for this Dean fan. When Jensen said that he wasn't comfortable with it; had to get used to it or understand it, what more do you need to know? I found it interesting that, while reading an article on the Arrow finale, the showrunner said that they changed the finale, because it didn't fit with how the main character would probably end it. Dabb, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about anyone's view except his own. He couldn't (apparently) even give the guys the ending they had decided on and that they wanted. Fuck Dabb!!!!

He said it took him two weeks to come to terms with it. You don't say that, you don't do that, when it's something you are happy about. You just don't.

With a rusty screwdriver.

ILoveReading · August 13, 2019

Jensen's 180, makes me question whether he truly came around or he got his hand slapped for saying it in the first place.

FlickChick · August 14, 2019

19 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen's 180, makes me question whether he truly came around or he got his hand slapped for saying it in the first place.

My money's on the latter! 😞

gonzosgirrl · August 14, 2019

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

My money's on the latter! 😞

I said this right off the bat, but then I wondered if Jensen himself decided to dial it back after realizing the effect his comments had. He's such a team player, it wouldn't surprise me if he schooled himself.

Myrelle · August 14, 2019

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I said this right off the bat, but then I wondered if Jensen himself decided to dial it back after realizing the effect his comments had. He's such a team player, it wouldn't surprise me if he schooled himself.

I think he said that Danneel encouraged him to call people about it, didn't he?

ITA that he's a team player-and sometimes possibly even to his own detriment-but we can only be who we are sometimes, too; and I honestly think that that's who he is and has always been.

7kstar · August 15, 2019

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

ITA that he's a team player-and sometimes possibly even to his own detriment-but we can only be who we are sometimes, too; and I honestly think that that's who he is and has always been.

When he was on Dark Angel the Leads were constantly complaining and it cost his character's storyline. I think he doesn't want to ever be known as that type of actor. He might say something behind the scenes but where it counts he will play it safe. But sometimes you can figure out what he means between the lines. I just hope the ending is enjoyable and not one where you want to destroy your TV set.

Castiels Cat · August 21, 2019

On 8/14/2019 at 1:53 PM, FlickChick said:

My money's on the latter! 😞

He is professional and not going to air grievances in public. If it was a done deal he is not going to complain.

Castiels Cat · August 21, 2019

On 8/9/2019 at 11:26 AM, Myrelle said:

Hide contents

I'm still thinking that Dean might not even be possessed by Chuck and that it will just once again only be Sam who has to power up via Amara to save the world and Dean will just be saddled with the support role AKA the wind beneath Sam's wings.

And maybe at the end, Dean will wind up going with Amara because she promises him that he will be with Sam.

And I know it sounds barf-worthy with nothing in it for Dean but once again to become simply the support system for HeroSam, but that's been Dabb's MO since he took over and I can't allow myself to hope or think there will be more.

And JP cut Jensen off at the knees by joining in on the Yay! train for it in public and to the fandom, so for him to veto or even object to it leaves him as the odd man out and the only one who won't give it a thumbs up which would likely make him uncomfortable, so instead we're getting this reluctant embracing, even while he knows that his own fandom is getting screwed over once again.

Sorry for the negativity, but JP's Unadulterated Love for it spells bad news to me and smells like nothing but more of the same from Dabb and co. to me.

The possessed by Amara makes no sense because she and Chuck have vessels. But then the nepotism duo are morons that have no understanding of the show's history or canon so anything is possible and because she is Singer's wife no one can correct her writing (reapers are angels).

What might make sense is locking Chuck away using the Mark and if one were following canon we have been told that Dean cannot carry the MoC anymore because it was removed magically I guess by the BotD. . . Which leaves Sam to do it even though he could barely handle a few seconds of it in season 11. Naw Jack would really be the better choice because HE'S PERFECT and has a reason to want Grandpa locked up.

Idk.

Maybe Amara needs to hide for the plan to work and Dean is too obvious a hiding place.

It is going to be disappointing.

I just watched "Justified" and it was so good. The last season was its best season. That is rare for a series. The writing stayed true to the characters and when a character seemed off there was a really good reason for it.

gonzosgirrl · August 22, 2019

17 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Jensen is being professional. Jared always is excited about his storylines. The fact that they have so little to say speaks volumes.

I have been saying this re Jensen for a couple years now. The only thing he's been vocal/enthusiastic about was his (then) upcoming Michael story line, and we saw how that worked out for him. I believe his silence speaks very, very loudly.

Castiels Cat · August 22, 2019

On 8/11/2019 at 5:28 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I somewhat agree with this but I think that Dabb is way worse at displaying character motivation than Carver was. Dabb doesn't care about fleshing out a story only showcasing his pet characters in a flashy way. Carver may have fallen short in regards to the reasoning regarding Sam's hatred of Benny but at least he was still writing for his mains instead of creating new characters that made the Winchesters irrelevant ( IMO ). I'd take Carver's style 100x over Dabb.

It was simple. Benny was there for Dean when Sam was not. Benny saved Dean when Sam did not even try. Sam was lashing out rather than dealing with his own guilt. He took on the trials to atone rather than verbally apologize which did not happen until "Love Hurts".

It was a rehash of Sam's emotions over Cas saving Dean except much uglier.

Remember his speech at the end of season 8 in "Sacrifice" to Dean the gist of which was who will you turn to when I disappeared you again... meaning what supernatural creature will you replace me with when I fail you again?

These emotions fueled his desperate need to be the one to save Dean from the MoC. This time he would be the one to save Dean no matter the price.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have been saying this re Jensen for a couple years now. The only thing he's been vocal/enthusiastic about was his (then) upcoming Michael story line, and we saw how that worked out for him. I believe his silence speaks very, very loudly.

I am still raging...

Castiels Cat · August 22, 2019

On 8/5/2019 at 12:04 AM, SueB said:

I’ve always seen Alex’s story as a means to insight for the boys: His personality is essentially Sam, Dean, and Cas combined. More importantly, we got to see them essentially raise a child.

I agree. . . Until the end of "Ouroboros" happened and the writing went to hell with Dean's storyline. This is not a fangirl complaint. That was the abrupt abandonment of a major plotline carried over from a previous season. It was painfully bad and ineptly handled. Talk about a walking sparkly deus ex machina. And after years of being told Cas couldn't be around because he was too powerful. And after they took away his ridiculous powers.

LOL!canon x10000000

Castiels Cat · August 22, 2019

On 7/20/2019 at 1:27 PM, catrox14 said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I was not intending my comment as a defense if Berens atall. He's on my poop list. LOL I was just saying that canonically, even if Berens was digging at Dean, Dean himself has an actual valid reason for not voting. Sadly, I doubt Berens even remembers that part of the show. Sigh....

I remember in season 11 being very impressed with the new female writer who obviously had watched the entire backlog. She left with Carver.

Casseiopeia · August 22, 2019

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I remember in season 11 being very impressed with the new female writer who obviously had watched the entire backlog. She left with Carver.

Nancy Won?

AwesomO4000 · August 22, 2019

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It was simple. Benny was there for Dean when Sam was not. Benny saved Dean when Sam did not even try. Sam was lashing out rather than dealing with his own guilt. He took on the trials to atone rather than verbally apologize which did not happen until "Love Hurts".

It was a rehash of Sam's emotions over Cas saving Dean except much uglier.

And this was Sam's arc why? To me it made no sense to even go there when there wasn't really any reason why Sam wouldn't even try to look for Dean in the first place. That was some contrived thing that Carver came up with. Sam had never not looked for Dean before, and had actually gone out of his way and risked all sorts of things - including his own moral code at times - to save Dean. This had been Sam's behavior since as early as mid season 1 (Faith) all the way through season 7 (Time After Time...). He may not have succeeded in saving Dean in season 3/4, but he tried. A lot. So why all of a sudden would he not try? Was it because he'd learned that trying to save Dean at great risk to his own moral code or at risk of others was a bad idea (which actually might have made sense)? Nope, because that wouldn't serve Carver's purpose (in my opinion).

Neither would've having Sam act like he had previously during his denial of guilt. Sam's emotions over Castiel were never in the being jealous of Castiel vein that I could see. Sam never showed outward hostility towards Castiel for Castiel saving Dean when he (Sam) couldn't. Sam's denial in not dealing with his own guilt then (in season 4) came out in destructive behavior and some resentment towards Dean. Sam was nothing but accepting and kind to Castiel. So for me this wasn't a "rehash of Sam's emotions over Castiel except uglier." This was an entirely different iteration of Sam's denial of guilt. ...which also just so happened to make Benny the poor put upon "good brother" in comparison.

So for me there were two huge things that made little sense for Sam character-wise. First Sam not even trying to look for Dean and Sam's (lack of) motivation in not doing so. And Sam's hostility towards Benny for saving Dean when Sam hadn't. Both went against all of Sam's character development from the previous 7 seasons.

So perhaps it is "simple," but for me, it was also not in character and done so that the plot point that Carver wanted could happen rather than following any logical character behavior. And the plot point that Carver wanted to happen - in my opinion - was to make Benny look good. And setting up the jealousy assured that not only would Sam look badly in comparison, but so would Dean have to look a bit bad as well, because he would have to abandon Benny due to Sam's jealousy.

If I'd bought that Sam didn't look for Dean (which I didn't, but say that I did), Carver could have had just as much conflict between the brothers if Sam had just shown resentment towards Dean for Sam's not being able to save him. Even though it seemed odd after Sam's character growth, it at least had been in character from Sam's previous behavior.*** But if Sam hadn't been jealous of Benny, then Carver couldn't have Dean also being crappy to Benny, too.

*** I didn't like how Carver had Sam be crappy towards Dean on his return, since I thought Sam had grown past that kind of thing, but I at least thought that was somewhat in character from Sam's previous behavior, and so I could have accepted things if that was the main focus.

Quote

Remember his speech at the end of season 8 in "Sacrifice" to Dean the gist of which was who will you turn to when I disappeared you again... meaning what supernatural creature will you replace me with when I fail you again?

These emotions fueled his desperate need to be the one to save Dean from the MoC. This time he would be the one to save Dean no matter the price.

Yeah, I remember the speech. and I saw what it meant, I just don't think that the gymnastics that Carver went through to get there made any sense for Sam's character. Sure the conclusion made sense based on Sam not looking for Dean and Sam's jealousy towards Benny, however the road to get there - i.e. that Sam didn't look for Dean and was jealous of Benny for saving Dean - was plot manipulation at best, character assassination at worst.

And in all of that mess - since in Carver's finale, he turned Dean into a huge enabler in order to keep Sam in this supposed "denial mode" - the one character who came out looking best was ...surprise! (not) Benny. In my opinion that was not a coincidence.

The entire plot was manipulated to give exactly that result.

Pondlass1 · August 24, 2019

Dean is the wind beneath Sam’s wings. Without Dean, Sam falters and falls.

Sorry AWESOME but that’s how I see it.

AwesomO4000 · August 24, 2019

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean is the wind beneath Sam’s wings. Without Dean, Sam falters and falls.

Sorry AWESOME but that’s how I see it.

Nothing to be sorry about.

I don't entirely disagree with you. I don't necessarily agree as strongly as Sam always failing without Dean, but Sam needing Dean more than vica-versa... I agree. And Sam messing up more without Dean I also agree (I just don't agree that it always happens.)

However, I actually think that goes towards my point above. Sam doesn't function as well without Dean, and after season 4 especially, Sam knows this. And if he didn't know it then, him needing Dean as his "stone number 1" in season 7 surely convinced him, and Sam pretty much said as such. That Sam wouldn't try to find out what happened to Dean after Dick Roman blew up and Dean disappeared to see if there was any excuse to get Dean back?

...In my opinion: not in character. Sam would entirely research to find out. He would make damn sure he knew that Dean was safely in heaven, and if he wasn't entirely sure that's where Dean was? He'd be justifying it to himself and getting Dean back.

And that was my main point above. A Sam who functions badly without Dean and knows it - and I'm pretty sure after season 4 and season 7, Sam knew it - isn't whoever that person Carver created in the season 8 opener was. I just don't buy that as believable, or that Sam just shrugged and walked away as Carver tried to sell. That isn't consistent with Sam needing Dean. Not to me anyway.

I have no problem with Sam being barely functional without Dean. I like Sam for who he is after all - I'm not delusional. I have a problem with Carver having Sam behave like he didn't need Dean, when Sam damn well knows he does and admitted as such often. ("I can't do this without you." was practically Sam's mantra in season 5.)

So for me, all that crap Carver had Sam do in season 8 and 9 was mostly to further the plot, and it didn't make sense character-wise. It was also just plain crappy to do to one of your main characters, in my opinion.

And then worse, after doing that to Sam's character, and making him almost unredeemable (and I say this, because in season 8 and the second half of season 9, I disliked Sam, a lot), apparently that was somehow humorous and something to make a joke about. Sorry, but for me, who loved Sam the way he was before Carver nearly ruined him, him then making jokes about it was in no way funny - and having Crowley have more of a moral standing concerning Dean than Sam and making that part of the joke? Screw you, Carver. I was offended and pissed about that and feel like I had good reason to be. Benny was bad enough, but Crowley?!? That left little doubt for me that it had been character assassination. Let's take Sam's mortal enemy and make him have moral high ground over Sam concerning Dean... can I just say again screw you, Carver.

And to think in the early years Carver wrote some of my favorite Sam episodes. Too bad that in his quest to undo everything Gamble did and create Benny, the perfect brother, he screwed over Sam's character to do it.

Sorry I ranted there a bit, Pondlass. It's not you - this just still annoys me. Even more so after one of my other favorite characters was also summarily assassinated to further the plot (and to justify keeping around a character I loathed. The show creator pretty much admitted that's why he wrote things that way.) And this saddens me even more now that soon I'll have no more favorite characters on television anymore. : ( (How sad will it be that after Supernatural is over, my favorite show left on television is going to be a reality TV show? Good gravy, that's just wrong. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that. Almost... except that the show is awesome - or is now awesome again anyway. 😉 But, it's still wrong somehow.)

7kstar · August 24, 2019

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

However, I actually think that goes towards my point above. Sam doesn't function as well without Dean, and after season 4 especially, Sam knows this. And if he didn't know it then, him needing Dean as his "stone number 1" in season 7 surely convinced him, and Sam pretty much said as such. That Sam wouldn't try to find out what happened to Dean after Dick Roman blew up and Dean disappeared to see if there was any excuse to get Dean back?

...In my opinion: not in character. Sam would entirely research to find out. He would make damn sure he knew that Dean was safely in heaven, and if he wasn't entirely sure that's where Dean was? He'd be justifying it to himself and getting Dean back.

And that was my main point above. A Sam who functions badly without Dean and knows it - and I'm pretty sure after season 4 and season 7, Sam knew it - isn't whoever that person Carver created in the season 8 opener was. I just don't buy that as believable, or that Sam just shrugged and walked away as Carver tried to sell.

I think many were not buying that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and that part didn't make sense for those long-time fans of the show.

But as much as I had some issues with Carver, I think I would much rather Carver over Dabb. At least he gave Dean something to do and Jensen had something to say about his storyline. Do I think Carver was the best - NO but Dabb has almost killed my interest in the show. I'll watch because it is the last season but I'm glad it's ending.

What does that say loud and clear when a fan is glad it is ending. I didn't feel that way about Numb3rs, Star Trek Voyager, Mash, or the old Magnum PI. I could understand the show was ending but I still wanted more. If Supernatural could have strong writers and etc, then I would want it to continue but we have what we have and my expectations are very low. With the bar being set so low, then it could surprise me...please. 🙂

DeeDee79 · August 25, 2019

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

But as much as I had some issues with Carver, I think I would much rather Carver over Dabb. At least he gave Dean something to do and Jensen had something to say about his storyline. Do I think Carver was the best - NO but Dabb has almost killed my interest in the show. I'll watch because it is the last season but I'm glad it's ending.

Agree 100% with this. At least under Carver there were storylines ( Purgatory, MOC ) characters ( Benny! ) and adversaries ( Stynes, Abaddon, Metatron ) that were interesting and engaging. Dabb just seems like he's been writing his personal fanfiction for the past 3 seasons.

FlickChick · August 25, 2019

19 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Agree 100% with this. At least under Carver there were storylines ( Purgatory, MOC ) characters ( Benny! ) and adversaries ( Stynes, Abaddon, Metatron ) that were interesting and engaging. Dabb just seems like he's been writing his personal fanfiction for the past 3 seasons.

And not well at all!!!!!!!!! Not to mention that his characters are one-note at best. Yes, unfortunately, it is time for the show to end.

7kstar · August 26, 2019

Wayward Sisters could have been engaging because I do believe Jody and Donna could have gotten our attention. However, he did his usual pushing a one-dimensional character down our throats and well then was surprised when it didn't get picked up.

The Bad place just wasn't engaging, nor did I care about Kaia and was tired of whiny Claire. I don't see how the Bad Place could have carried a show, when it didn't seem strong enough in the first place. What's really sad for me, is that I wanted to like it.

AwesomO4000 · August 26, 2019

7 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I don't see how the Bad Place could have carried a show, when it didn't seem strong enough in the first place.

I agree. I think a spin off show would've needed something that could have an overall arc, but also have the potential for individual stories some weeks, and the Bad Place didn't have that potential in my opinion.

I would've liked my idea for a show centering around Bobby and Ash (and whoever else they may have wanted from the show who's dead like occasionally Rufus) fighting the system in heaven. They could've even used Ash's Roadhouse as the main set. The overall arc could've been the heaven subterfuge plot, but weekly stories could've revolved around Ash and Bobby reuniting souls with their loved ones and gathering / recruiting people and talent for their subterfuge against the angels' restrictive regime. A recurring subplot could've been a search for Ellen and Jo.

On 8/24/2019 at 7:25 PM, 7kstar said:

But as much as I had some issues with Carver, I think I would much rather Carver over Dabb. At least he gave Dean something to do and Jensen had something to say about his storyline. Do I think Carver was the best - NO but Dabb has almost killed my interest in the show. I'll watch because it is the last season but I'm glad it's ending.

I can understand why a Dean fan would feel this way. I think Carver's early reign bothered me more mainly because of what he was given and the extent of Sam's isolation from the main plot (except for season 8B) and his villainization with respect to the minor characters.

Despite some bumps, I thought Gamble left Carver with great potential. The Purgatory arc could've been fantastic for Dean,*** and Sam trying to find Dean had similarly good potential. For some reason, Carver thought purgatory was a crappy storyline and apparently thought a soap opera romance was better even though that had to be shoehorned in... who am I kidding. It didn't fit at all with what was else happening, and served to isolate Sam from the rest of the main cast a good portion of the time.

Dabb, on the other hand, got left with severely damaged characters, and not really anywhere much to go after season 11. Where do you go after God? He wasn't a good enough showrunner to get over that big hurdle. I think it would've been a tall order for a lot of showrunners.

I think also that Carver bugged, because with his direction of the writers they didn't just marginalize Sam at times and make other characters sometimes more important than Sam, they often made Sam the villain in those other characters' stories. They did it especially with Benny (In my opinion "Citizen Fang" was a despicable and entirely unnecessary thing to do to one of your main characters), but Sam didn't fare much better with Gadreel. He somehow ended up having to spout dialogue about how maybe Gadreel wasn't really a bad guy after all, just misunderstood, (and later a "friend") so we could further the plot of Castiel persuading Gadreel over to the good side (they didn't even give Sam that small role in helping to defeat Metatron.)

So I think that's what bugged most with Carver vs Dabb, for me. Carver not only marginalized Sam at times to minor characters, he made Sam the "bad guy" who mistreated those minor characters and looked like a villain in their stories. I mean sure Sam got to do the trials, but in the end who was it who was responsible for Sam getting back alive to even complete the trials? It sure wasn't Sam completing the trials on his own. Nope Benny, the poor guy who Sam had callously misjudged and mistreated, sacrificed to save the day. Which for me very much tarnished Sam's "journey" such as it was, since the heroic sacrifice wasn't made by Sam, but by Benny.

And Carver did kill my interest in the show for a while. I stopped watching live for the first time in 7 seasons after 3 episodes of season 8. It was more than 4 months before I watched again. I gave it a second chance (mainly because of "Everybody Hates Hitler" and "The Great Escapist." If not for those episodes, I wouldn't have started watching again.) And I thought things were maybe getting better... silly me, because then season 9B happened, and I almost stopped watching again.

So I do understand what you are saying and why you feel that way. I just think that Carver was more damaging for my viewing personally, because he not only marginalized Sam sometimes... he made me - and a good portion of fandom - really dislike him. And that's a crappy feeling. To come into a season all excited for what's going to happen and then within 3 episodes, you don't even like your favorite character anymore and don't want to watch anymore. That's what Carver did to me. As crappy as Dabb is sometimes, he never made me almost hate Sam.

*** With Dean gaining confidence in himself and learning that yes, he could devote himself to other people besides Sam (which he did quite well in the purgatory flashbacks). That he was capable and a good person and not "crap" as he often calls himself. But Carver threw that all out the window.

Edited August 26, 2019 by AwesomO4000

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2019

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Carver did kill my interest in the show for a while

Carver may have killed your interest in the show, but Dabb killed the show.

ILoveReading · August 26, 2019

It might be more unpopular opinion but I've never felt that Sam fared that badly under Carver. Because I can believe Sam wouldn't look for Dean. He was content not to tell Dean he was alive after he came back soulless. (As we've seen soulless people are capable of making decisions) and Sam seems to move on pretty easily after Dean leaves and seems to find a replacement easily. He told Dean Ruby said all the same things Dean did and he had to go to Ruy to get away from Dean. Amelia. Plus, both times Sam almost seemed to resent Dean coming back. Also when Sam was patting himself on the back and deciding he was ready to die, he didn't give a crap that he'd be "leaving Dean out there alone."

So I can fully believe he'd move on. I think him not looking was very much in character if you (general you) look past the shiny wrapping of so called BM's. Plus, IMO, the narrative plainly sided with Sam.* Caver called Sam mature, and Singer said Dean was being mean. Plus, Sam's actions in the whole Benny debacle were never mentioned. Sam faced zero consequences for his actions on screen. He even got rewarded for them when Dean cut out Benny. The text message was brought up more than once, plus, canonically, the the writers used Charlie as a mouthpiece to say Dean ruined Sam's life.

The trial were given to Sam, with a "I'm stronger than you speech" that was wrapped up in a shiny bow, with Dean once again ultimately, having to prove his loyalty to Sam and grovel and promise to put him first. Then there was more manipulative writing 101. When they had Dean list the times Sam betrayed him, they made sure to list souless Sam, so it sounded like Dean was blaming him for things that weren't his fault. That was where the focus was emphasized so the other legitmate things Dean is saying are ignored to make him the bad guy. (This isn't just a carver thing, its something all show runners have used but that's another post.).

Then Dean was made to trick Sam into possession, basically getting him labelled as a nasty word. Then Sam was allowed to hang onto his anger when Dean found out. There was the purge speech, which the writers of that episode specifically said, "Sam was coming from a place of honesty." The only thing retracted was Sam not saving Dean. Because Dean says, "I thought you wouldn't save me." Sam says "I lied," So it sounds like Sam believe everything else he said about Dean.

That wasn't the first time said Dean was weak and a coward.

IMO, Dean only came across as sympatheic because of Jensen being able to spin straw into gold.

If I wanted to throw a character under a bus, that wouldn't be how I would write them. That's how I would spin it to show they were ultimately right.

*This is just my interpretation of evens. I'm aware others don't share them.

So my impression of Sam is that Sam needs Dean and resents him for it. He doesn't really want him. Dean seems to be what Sam wants when he has no one else.

0

AwesomO4000 · August 26, 2019

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Amelia. Plus, both times Sam almost seemed to resent Dean coming back. Also when Sam was patting himself on the back and deciding he was ready to die, he didn't give a crap that he'd be "leaving Dean out there alone."

These things were under Carver. I'm not getting how this wasn't Carver painting Sam in a bad light.

Sam may have seemed to resent Dean's being back in season 4 - and if you read my above posts (and I'll understand if you didn't. I am long-winded) - I even mention that very thing. However, what Sam also did in season 4 (and every season from mid-season 1 until season 7) was try all sorts of things to get Dean back first, including trying to give up his own soul to save Dean. And Sam didn't resent Castiel for saving Dean either. He resented Dean some for Dean putting him in a position to make him (Sam) feel like a failure. What Sam didn't do was just shrug his shoulders and then resent Dean for apparently nothing but being a nuisance for coming back - that was Carver and only Carver.

Quote

Sam faced zero consequences for his actions on screen. He even got rewarded for them when Dean cut out Benny. The text message was brought up more than once, plus, canonically, the the writers used Charlie as a mouthpiece to say Dean ruined Sam's life.

If this is the case, then in my opinion, the same can be said of Dean in season 9. He faced almost zero consequences for his lies about Gadreel, and he was in the end proven right when Gadreeel was a good guy and Sam even had to say that Gadreel was a good guy.

What little consequences Dean did face - Kevin - were whitewashed and turned into a positive thing. Kevin even took Dean's side in things. Some of the blame even got put onto Sam instead (see below).

Then Sam's possession was downgraded later as being not that bad and something that Sam maybe should have realized. Even Kevin's death was played off as partly Sam's fault by making it seem like Sam should have known better. Within the same piece of dialogue, Gadreel was called "misunderstood" rather than evil, but that Sam should have known better. He was "wrong" not to suspect that Gadreel was maybe bad before he killed Kevin.

Which what? But nonetheless, blame for Kevin's death was now partially put onto Sam, since there was no disagreement from Castiel - therefor allowing it to stand as stated. Not even a small "you couldn't have known," or something like that to show that Sam was wrongly blaming himself. Nice manipulation there show. (see "King of the Damned" for the conversation that I am referring to.)

Quote

When they had Dean list the times Sam betrayed him, they made sure to list souless Sam, so it sounded like Dean was blaming him for things that weren't his fault. That was where the focus was emphasized so the other legitmate things Dean is saying are ignored to make him the bad guy.

How is this any different than the "The Purge" speech? Sam was obviously saying stuff that wasn't true, and in the case of Sam's speech - unlike Dean's - Sam wasn't even allowed to talk about the main things that Dean actually did, like lie to Sam and let Sam believe that he was going crazy and/or evil again. Then the one thing that maybe could have been true - that Sam wouldn't do that to Dean - was taken back with the "I lied."

So in my opinion, it can't be both. Dean saying obviously untrue things so we aren't supposed to believe him, but Sam saying obviously untrue things but we are supposed to believe him. Those two things are contradictory. And in my opinion, the "The Purge" speech was setting Sam up exactly to be the bad guy and be "wrong."

Quote

So it sounds like Sam believe everything else he said about Dean.

And this makes Sam look good how? When we know Sam was saying things that weren't true, and is turned into a hypocrite for the maybe one thing that might've been positive, in my opinion, that's the opposite of taking a character's side. That's instead character assassination. and making him look badly. I guess miles vary on that.

Quote

Then Sam was allowed to hang onto his anger when Dean found out.

Not really, in my opinion. Sam was made to look like the bad guy for treating Dean too harshly with the "The Purge" speech and his obvious untruths. Even Kevin took Dean's side with his "get over it" in the very next episode. Sam is made to lie that he would, but then walk away as we get a sympathetic shot of Dean's face. In my opinion, that's not siding with Sam, but with Dean. Sam was shown to be wrong for hanging on to his anger with even Kevin forgiving Dean when mean old Sam wouldn't.

No one took Sam's side in that that we saw. Even Gadreel took pot shots at Sam that were allowed to stay and not refuted.

ILoveReading · August 27, 2019

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What Sam didn't do was just shrug his shoulders and then resent Dean for apparently nothing but being a nuisance for coming back - that was Carver and only Carve

I disagree because Sam chose Ruby the very first night Dean came back. He repeatedly chose Ruby that entire season. If Sam resented Dean becasue he felt like a failure that is on Sam. It goes to one of my biggest complaints. His excuses. He always has a reason why its never his fault. "It's my fault because you made me do it in the first place."

Sam doesn't get a free pass for everything he did while souless. Because everything souless Sam did, I can name an equivalent that real Sam didi. Because we're told its not really that big a deal and you just ask yourself "What would Mr. Rogers do." Souless Sam was asking "What would real Sam do." His instinct was to basically ignore Dean for an entire year. (I also remember fandom reaction when we first got the spoilers for that season and we didn't know Sam was souless and they said that Sam wans't going to tell Dean he was back. Again, I remember the reaction being "Sam is a great brother, noble and sacrificing. So it seems a lot of Sam's own fans have no problem beliving he'd leave Dean. "

Plus, we saw that Dean had to point out to Sam that when Sam left he left Dean too. That didn't even occur to him. All his happy memories were being away from Dean. Even if he didn't pick those memories, he didn't deny they were his happy times.

There was also the cross road demons who accused Sam of being a tiny bit glad when Dean was gone, during bed time stories. This is when Sam got mad and just shot her. Almost like she struck a nerve.

Sam did resent both both Benny and Cas. "Who are you going to turn too, another Angel another vampire.?" Were the exact words that left Sam's mouth. Dean didn't turn to them because he distrusted Sam. Cas rescused him, becasue he was ordered too, and if Dean didn't turn to Benny he'd still be in purgatory.

I never said he didn't try to save Dean, but did he do it because he wanted him back or because he felt guilty. They aren't the same thing.

So I strongly disagree that this was a thing only under Carver.

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

He faced almost zero consequences for his lies about Gadreel, and he was in the end proven right when Gadreeel was a good guy and Sam even had to say that Gadreel was a good guy.

I disagree Dean faced no consequences. Just because they weren't world ending consequences doesn't mean they're weren't consequences. Dean ended up getting disowned by the person he loved the most. He ended up taking the mark and ultimately ended up getting killed and turning into a demon. I'd say there were consequences.

Demon Dean not really doing anything was more of a product of the show runners lack of interest in developing the story.

As for Gadreel, I'll give you that WTF? moment but I'm more talking about the brothers relationship and how Sam treats Dean. Rather than the larger story.

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Kevin even took Dean's side in things.

I felt Kevin was more neutral. More like, "both of you knock it off." It wasn't Sam Kevin told to stop having a pity for.

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

How is this any different than the "The Purge" speech

Because the writes of the ep believed everything that came out of Sam's mouth. They even tweeted it. "Sam was coming from a place of honesty. " I remember the reaction, in the fandom being overwhelmingly positive in Sam's favor, and how it was great that Sam finally stood up to Dean and told him off. Reviewers and bloggers, and tumblr metas took Sam's side in that argument and not by a small margin, so IMO, I felt the writers had Sam speak his mind. If we were supposed to side with Dean, he would have been given a voice.

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And this makes Sam look good how?

Because Sam treated Dean like crap in both season 4 and season 8 and both times the narrative made Dean prove his loyalty to Sam. Sam even go this own way with Benny when he faced zero on screen consequences. He even won when he demanded Dean cut him out.

So no, I don't think Carver through Sam under the bus, I think Jensen's ability to rise above the writing was the only thing that saved the character. So I think it was Dean that got left to be run over buy the bus, but Jensen pulled out a miracle, before it hit him.

Edited August 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

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