“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

AwesomO4000 · April 24, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

He suffered no negative consequences for anything he did.

We've debated before concerning consequences, and the general consensus seemed to be that the degree of the consequences doesn't make a difference when it comes to the narrative message. If that applies to Dean then it also applies to Sam. And it doesn't change the Benny part of the episode or the fact that that part of the narrative damaged Sam's character for no good reason at all.

As for Sam "winning" and Dean dumping Benny, I already expressed that I thought that that was a crappy thing to do to Dean's character. Sam wasn't the only one who got burned in the Benny narrative fiasco, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

But never once was anything Sam did brought up. Sam handcuffing Dean to a radiator, siccing Martin on Benny in the first place was all brushed under the rug.

Of course it was brushed under the rug... It never should've been written in the first place. And once the writers got their "poor Benny" plot point out of the way, what did it matter if Sam's character was damaged or Dean's character was damaged? ...They likely figured that they'd make up something or another so it didn't matter. As long as Benny is the put upon hero, who cares what it does to the other characters?

That's what it seemed like the writers were saying to me.

Season 8 was just all around awful... When the most likeable character in the show isn't one of your main characters, and your main characters - who are supposed to be the heroes of the show - aren't acting like heroes at all, I'm sorry, but you're doing something wrong.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember Dean getting plenty of hate from the fandom for daring to see that text.

That certainly wasn't happening in the part of fandom that I was in. Over half of the comments were about how Sam should die, so that Dean could go hunting with Benny instead. And it was a huge fan board, so not just a niche posting place.

And again, for me, when that's the general reaction, and you're garnering that kind of hate towards one of your main characters ...then you're doing something wrong. And when it was done so that your own character could instead be the "better brother"*** that's a crappy thing to do, in my opinion.

*** (And that the writers had Dean say it, means that they knew damn well that that's how the writing was making it come across. Otherwise it wouldn't have even been a thing at all.)

Edited April 24, 2019 by AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000 · April 24, 2019

4 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Kind of like Dean with Jack right now?

As I said above (12 posts above yours), that was pretty much my point - that in my opinion, what's being seen as happening with Jack now is pretty much what I thought happened to Sam and Dean with respect to Benny in season 8.

I'm waiting on the finale to see if ends as badly. I don't think it will... I don't think any season could be as bad as season 8 for me... well season 9 comes damn close, but otherwise...

Castiels Cat · April 24, 2019

On 4/22/2019 at 9:59 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes, I do, but that was season 8 again. Sorry that I didn't make my position clear. I was talking about Sam's feelings about Castiel up until season 8. My point was that Carver introduced this jealousy. It wasn't there that I ever saw before season 8, despite how close Dean and Castiel had been previously. Sam had other flaws: hubris, addiction, rage, vengeance, some self-righteousness, but jealousy was not - that I saw anyway - one of those things until Carver decided to add that too.

Many shows don't even last past 7 seasons, so for me, to introduce a character beat like that so late in the game of the series was out of character. And it wasn't even gradual. Sam went from not showing jealousy at all that I remember to off-the charts "I'm so jealous I want to kill Benny." To me, that came flying out of nowhere, and made about as much sense as Sam the handyman (as in: none). Least they could've done was work up to it, give some reasoning, etc., but nope the writers said boom! Sam's a handyman and boom! Sam's crazy jealous: just go with it. Sorry nope. That kind of thing makes me stop watching a show... which is what I did for about 4 months.

If not for the tonal shift in the second half of season 8, I would've stayed gone. I quit The Walking Dead and The Gilmore Girls for the same kind of characterization shenanigans.

Sure if jealousy had previously been something Sam had been guilty of and needed to develop from. My opinion is that to just introduce a new - and ugly - character flaw just to make a character look bad and that he then has to "develop" from is a crappy thing to do not a good character development arc. Sam had plenty of "human" flaws already that they could've worked with. In my opinion, they introduced this one just so that there would be brotherly angst, not because it made any sense. It has nothing to do with me not wanting Sam to have a negative arc - I would've left the show long ago if that was the case. My complaint here is that based on Sam from the previous 7 seasons, I didn't think Sam being jealous of Benny made any sense at all character-wise, so it made no sense to me that he should have to have "character development" from a character he previously didn't have.

How would it have looked if they all of a sudden decided to make Dean outwardly jealous of Sam's relationship with Jessica, for example. Or instead of Dean being angry and hurt that Sam didn't look for him, they made him jealous of his relationship with Amelia? Sure it would be "human," but it wouldn't make sense character-wise for Dean. And I don't think it would have been a good character arc for Dean either.

I would have found it just as insulting as I found them doing it to Sam to be.

Sam felt guilty about not saving Dean. Suddenly Dean has this friend that saved him from Purgatory just like Cas saved him from Hell when Sam Couldn't. And this guy is f'g perfect for Dean. Dean leaves Sam in the middle of a hunt to hunt with him!!! Dean takes a personal day.!!! This guy is trying to resist HIS blood addiction when Sam could not.

Sam was jealous. He could never admit it but he was jealous. Most Samfans could not admit it either despite the fact it was very clearly articulated in text.

Dean disappeared on a hunt and Sam didn't look and shacked up with a girl WHO kinda was a lot like Dean... lol. The only reason Sam looks for John in the pilot was because Dean cajoled him to and he would look bad to Jesse if he didn't go. The fact that he looks for Dean in season 14 IS character growth.

IMO Carver was smart to do what he did with Sam because both Kriple and Gamble just messed around with chosen one or super special tropes and never had any character growth for Sam at all. The character started the Apocalypse and walked all over Dean and just shrugged it off. He needed a do over without the excuse of the devil made me do it. Now he has grown up and behaves like a responsible adult.

This is because Carver's seasons allowed him to grow.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Castiels Cat

gonzosgirrl · April 24, 2019

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Kind of like Dean with Jack right now?

Kind of exactly.

Myrelle · April 24, 2019

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Kind of exactly.

Except nothing, in text, is being swept under the carpet concerning what Dean has supposedly done "wrong" to poor, poor Jack and the sweet little cinnamon roll sure has been around a whole lot longer(with still no end in sight) than Benny ever was.

Some things will never change on this show or within it's fandom either, for that matter.

I'm so glad that it's ending is within sight now, though.

juppschmitz · April 24, 2019

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

and the sweet little cinnamon roll sure has been around a whole lot longer(with still no end in sight) than Benny ever was.

This.

catrox14 · April 24, 2019

Quote

And it doesn't change the Benny part of the episode or the fact that that part of the narrative damaged Sam's character for no good reason at all.

I really don't think Benny damaged Sam's character. Benny was always suspect of turning bad because vampire; because he made a deal/used Dean to get out of Purgatory. Sam's character could be seen as damaged and incharacter if you consider Sam's waffling on being in or out of the hunting life from the pilot forward. Him not looking for Dean seemed mean but not unusual IMO, not really. Him bailing on Kevin was more damaging than being kind of jealous of Benny or being with Amelia.

I think Dean forging relationships with someone other than Sam, IMO, was a paradigm shift that scared a large portion of viewers because it showed that the show didn't have to have put Dean with Sam all the time to have a good plot for Dean and Dean alone and that was a good premise that actually had legs. IMO, it made it much better show at that point to have Dean be focused on someone other than Sam,regardless of Sam's action or inaction, as the case may be.

Castiels Cat · April 24, 2019

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really don't think Benny damaged Sam's character. Benny was always suspect of turning bad because vampire; because he made a deal/used Dean to get out of Purgatory. Sam's character could be seen as damaged and incharacter if you consider Sam's waffling on being in or out of the hunting life from the pilot forward. Him not looking for Dean seemed mean but not unusual IMO, not really. Him bailing on Kevin was more damaging than being kind of jealous of Benny or being with Amelia.

I think Dean forging relationships with someone other than Sam, IMO, was a paradigm shift that scared a large portion of viewers because it showed that the show didn't have to have put Dean with Sam all the time to have a good plot for Dean and Dean alone and that was a good premise that actually had legs. IMO, it made it much better show at that point to have Dean be focused on someone other than Sam,regardless of Sam's action or inaction, as the case may be.

Sam running the roadhouse and Dean hunting with his buddies would be a killer spin-off. Put Dean with Castiel, Benny, Crowley and Ketch and it is great television. Even the Dean and Jack fishing trip had me teary eyed. You hit the nail on the head. The Benny and Dean episodes were the best thing about season 8 and Crowley and Dean made season 9 so interesting.

AwesomO4000 · April 24, 2019

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam was jealous. He could never admit it but he was jealous. Most Samfans could not admit it either despite the fact it was very clearly articulated in text.

I know that Sam was jealous and that it was articulated in text. My point has been that in my opinion, Sam showed no signs of being jealous in the 7 seasons previously even though I thought there were opportunities for the writers to have done so if jealousy was something Sam was prone to. They didn't, so instead when Carver did, it just seemed like it came out of nowhere. There were other Sam character flaws Sam did have that Carver could have used, but instead he gave Sam a new one, because that better fit the story he wanted to tell, even though that story wasn't one organically fit to the character, and even though I thought that story was crappy and uninteresting (the Amelia arc was boring and went nowhere.)

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

The only reason Sam looks for John in the pilot was because Dean cajoled him to and he would look bad to Jess5if ge didn't go. The fact that he looks for Dean in season 14 IS character growth

What does John have to do with this? And Sam went to look for John with Dean even though Jessica asked him not to go. Again, Sam not looking for Dean was something Carver introduced. Sam had looked for Dean or tried to save Dean every time before when Dean disappeared, was dying, or died. I gave the list earlier - there were more than a half dozen episodes on it starting with "Faith" in season 1 and ending with "Time After Time..." which was exactly a situation where Dean disappeared and Sam looked for him with less information than he had after Dean disappeared this time. That had been only half a season earlier.

The only reason that there was "character growth" with Sam looking for Dean (and that came in season 10) was because Carver regressed Sam first and then deigned to give him this supposed "growth" back... Also to note was that Carver gave Sam this "growth" while in text declaring that Sam was maybe "worse than a demon" with the way he tried to find Dean.

In my opinion, it's not really "character growth" if you take growth away and then give it back again but in a crappier way and with a message that it's bad.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's character could be seen as damaged and incharacter if you consider Sam's waffling on being in or out of the hunting life from the pilot forward. Him not looking for Dean seemed mean but not unusual IMO, not really. Him bailing on Kevin was more damaging than being kind of jealous of Benny or being with Amelia.

I suppose it could, but I didn't see Sam as waffling on hunting since the Pilot forward... In my opinion that was pretty close to wrapped up by late season 2 ("What Is..."), reinforced in season 4 with Sam teaching "Adam" how to hunt, with Sam further declaring by season 5 that "they hadn't missed a damn thing" by not having the apple pie life and even further doubling down and rejecting normal, because they didn't "make a difference" with normal in season 6 ("The French Mistake"). And in season 7, Sam was more into hunting in general than Dean was, from what I saw.

In my opinion, that issue had been settled for almost 5 seasons, 2 1/2 at the least if you only count from season 5, and there hadn't been any waffling since season 3, or season 4 at the latest if you count whatever that weird-ass declaration in "Criss Angel..." was. But even if you count that, that's once in 5 seasons (seasons 3 through 7) that Sam may have slightly waffled. That's less than Dean waffled on quitting hunting in the same time period. So for me, it wasn't in character for Sam, not really. Not unless you ignore seasons 2 through 7. It would be like having Dean suddenly going back to his "if it's a monster, we kill it" philosophy, even though Dean had changed his mind on that way back in season 2 and we'd seen plenty of evidence since then that that change had stuck.

For me, it's more of a somewhat romantic or nostalgic notion that Sam wants "normal" and Dean was "born to hunt." For me there really hadn't been much of a difference between them in terms of hunting - except for maybe why they both want to hunt**** - for a long, long time ...until Carver decided to regress Sam's character in season 8.

Similarly Sam had always looked for Dean before - as stated above - so how was that not unusual? When before had Sam not looked for Dean... or a missing compatriot for that matter? They spent a week looking for Ava when she disappeared and exhausted all leads, and they only went on because Dean rightly convinced Sam that there was nothing left to look for. So Sam bailing on Kevin - also not in character, in my opinion.

*** For me it's very much tied into Sam's wanting to prove that he isn't "evil." Hunting makes Sam feel like he "makes a difference" and can do good in the world. That's important for Sam, because this wanting to prove he isn't evil has been part of his character for a while (and also explains why the motivation for hunting wasn't as much there before season 2, because that's when Sam potentially "being evil" really kicked in.) Hunting is the way Sam tried to do that for many, many seasons. Carver and the other writers just decided to ignore that part of Sam's characterization, in my opinion. He didn't even choose a "normal" job for Sam that reflected Sam's need to do this (prove he isn't "evil.") even as they had Sam questioning this very thing in later season 8.

Castiels Cat · April 24, 2019

13 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Except nothing, in text, is being swept under the carpet concerning what Dean has supposedly done "wrong" to poor, poor Jack and the sweet little cinnamon roll sure has been around a whole lot longer(with still no end in sight) than Benny ever was.

Some things will never change on this show or within it's fandom either, for that matter.

I'm so glad that it's ending is within sight now, though.

Benny was the better brother. Jack is not that at all although we and SAM (lol) certainly see the parallels between Jack and Sam and Nick and Sam. Jared is a good enough actor to get that across in the last scene of the last episode.

Jack and Nick is the worst case scenario of what might have happened to Sam if he had not have had Dean by his side. Well Jack did have Dean and Sam and Cas and it didn't matter because Jack didn't listen to the warnings about not using his power, save your soul at all costs, now that you are at full power hold back until we are sure you can handle it. The twee fangirls might think otherwise however the show is pretty clear that Jack messed up. I know this because they went Greek hero again with "Ourobouros" and Jack was heroic and Jack also didn't listen to sound advice from his elders. Nor did he listen to the prophecy from the gorgon. Heroes that ignore prophecy are doomed. Like Dean our tragic hero last season, Jack fell hard. He made an error in judgement that will prove to be costly. Tween noodle heads with proverbial hard-ons for cute nephilim might think otherwise but Jack really messed up bigtime. This is subtext but it is clear as day. Jack is the snake. The snake dies. The writers laid it out very plainly.

As a result of Jack's actions a series of events have unfolded. It really doesn't matter if he is crazy, unstable, under the influence of malignant forces, whatever... it all started because Jack decided he had to help, he had to be the one to end this because ... "I AM A WINCHESTER. I AM THE SON OF LUCIFER. I AM A HUNTER or however that hubric mumbo jumbo went. And it was hubris that drove him, and anger and bravery.

Nonetheless Jack is responsible for Mary's death. He feels no responsibility or remorse. He is unstable, devolving, erratic. There is no coming back from that conversation for Jack. Team Free Will will be damaged by the aftershocks as well.

After witnessing Dean in seasons 12 and 13 and also knowing his backstory and Sam's I understand their reponses. Knowing that Cas was essentially brainwashed by fetus Jack I see his as well I suppose. Cas was not privy to their conversation with Jack. If he had seen that... I do expect TFW to be fractured by the events in the finale.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Castiels Cat

AwesomO4000 · April 24, 2019

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

IMO Carver was smart to do what he did with Sam because both Kriple and Gamble just messed around with chosen one or super special tropes and never had any character growth at all. The character stsrted the Apocalypse and walked all over Dean and just shrugged it off. He needed a do over without the excuse of the devil made me do it. Now ge grew up and behaves like a responsible adult.

This is because Carver's seasons allowed him to grow.

I couldn't disagree more, but I've already covered extensively why I think this. And Sam hardly shrugged off starting the apocalypse, nor did he not try to make it up to Dean. Sam was very appreciative of Dean in season 6B through 7. Carver was the one who ignored this character growth and made Sam act crappy to Dean (and Kevin and Benny), not Kripke*** or Gamble.

The short version is that Sam from season 7 was much different from the Sam we saw in season 1. That's character growth. Carver gave us character regression - and a crappy one at that - and then made Sam start another apocalypse while supposedly fixing the regression he gave him.

If he thought that that was somehow kind to Sam's character, that, in my opinion, is a little insulting.

*** Kripke wrote "The Man Who Knew Too Much" for the season 6 finale where Sam took on his hell memories so that he could fight by Dean's side and support him and honor him for all that Dean had done for him - "you know why" - all while no one would ever know about this sacrifice. There was no heroic gain or super special anything there. It was Sam deciding that supporting Dean and acknowledging all that Dean had done for him was worth the pain of those memories even if no one ever knew.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AwesomO4000

Castiels Cat · April 24, 2019

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I know that Sam was jealous and that it was articulated in text. My point has been that in my opinion, Sam showed no signs of being jealous in the 7 seasons previously even though I thought there were opportunities for the writers to have done so if jealousy was something Sam was prone to. They didn't, so instead when Carver did, it just seemed like it came out of nowhere. There were other Sam character flaws Sam did have that Carver could have used, but instead he gave Sam a new one, because that better fit the story he wanted to tell, even though that story wasn't one organically fit to the character, and even though I thought that story was crappy and uninteresting (the Amelia arc was boring and went nowhere.)

What does John have to do with this? And Sam went to look for John with Dean even though Jessica asked him not to go. Again, Sam not looking for Dean was something Carver introduced. Sam had looked for Dean or tried to save Dean every time before when Dean disappeared, was dying, or died. I gave the list earlier - there were more than a half dozen episodes on it starting with "Faith" in season 1 and ending with "Time After Time..." which was exactly a situation where Dean disappeared and Sam looked for him with less information than he had after Dean disappeared this time. That had been only half a season earlier.

The only reason that there was "character growth" with Sam looking for Dean (and that came in season 10) was because Carver regressed Sam first and then deigned to give him this supposed "growth" back... Also to note was that Carver gave Sam this "growth" while in text declaring that Sam was maybe "worse than a demon" with the way he tried to find Dean.

In my opinion, it's not really "character growth" if you take growth away and then give it back again but in a crappier way and with a message that it's bad.

I suppose it could, but I didn't see Sam as waffling on hunting since the Pilot forward... In my opinion that was pretty close to wrapped up by late season 2 ("What Is..."), reinforced in season 4 with Sam teaching "Adam" how to hunt, with Sam further declaring by season 5 that "they hadn't missed a damn thing" by not having the apple pie life and even further doubling down and rejecting normal, because they didn't "make a difference" with normal in season 6 ("The French Mistake"). And in season 7, Sam was more into hunting in general than Dean was, from what I saw.

In my opinion, that issue had been settled for almost 5 seasons, 2 1/2 at the least if you only count from season 5, and there hadn't been any waffling since season 3, or season 4 at the latest if you count whatever that weird-ass declaration in "Criss Angel..." was. But even if you count that, that's once in 5 seasons (seasons 3 through 7) that Sam may have slightly waffled. That's less than Dean waffled on quitting hunting in the same time period. So for me, it wasn't in character for Sam, not really. Not unless you ignore seasons 2 through 7. It would be like having Dean suddenly going back to his "if it's a monster, we kill it" philosophy, even though Dean had changed his mind on that way back in season 2 and we'd seen plenty of evidence since then that that change had stuck.

For me, it's more of a somewhat romantic or nostalgic notion that Sam wants "normal" and Dean was "born to hunt." For me there really hadn't been much of a difference between them in terms of hunting - except for maybe why they both want to hunt**** - for a long, long time ...until Carver decided to regress Sam's character in season 8.

Similarly Sam had always looked for Dean before - as stated above - so how was that not unusual? When before had Sam not looked for Dean... or a missing compatriot for that matter? They spent a week looking for Ava when she disappeared and exhausted all leads, and they only went on because Dean rightly convinced Sam that there was nothing left to look for. So Sam bailing on Kevin - also not in character, in my opinion.

*** For me it's very much tied into Sam's wanting to prove that he isn't "evil." Hunting makes Sam feel like he "makes a difference" and can do good in the world. That's important for Sam, because this wanting to prove he isn't evil has been part of his character for a while (and also explains why the motivation for hunting wasn't as much there before season 2, because that's when Sam potentially "being evil" really kicked in.) Hunting is the way Sam tried to do that for many, many seasons. Carver and the other writers just decided to ignore that part of Sam's characterization, in my opinion. He didn't even choose a "normal" job for Sam that reflected Sam's need to do this (prove he isn't "evil.") even as they had Sam questioning this very thing in later season 8.

For many fans Sam's character did not work because of writing choices. Many fans actively disliked the character. People here are being charitable when they say they like season 2 Sam best. IMO that is code for I really do not like Sam very much but he was still kind of nice before Kripke's big mytharc kicked in. The chosen one/special one gimicks ruined the character. They took him dark without a true redemption. And sorry having a character suffer in hell the worst hellpain ever is not a redemption. The character actually needs to acknowledge that they need to change and that they made mistakes on a level that matches the mistakes that they made which never happened. Kripke and Gamble simply refused. And the idea that Sam hurt his brother repeatedly was never even broached.

Carver rebooted Sam's arc and made it completely human. Sam made very similar choices without the demon blood/devil made me do it get out of jail card. And by the end in season 10 he went dark to save his brother and in season 11 Sam received a credible redemption arc. Guess what? I actually like Sam now. I never thought I would say that. For many fans it is too little too late and of course they resent that Dean's storylines were in service to Sam getting this service.

Was it harsh. of course it was. Sam is not perfect. Neither is Dean. We are seeing Dean's fatal flaw play out in seasons 12-14.

Castiels Cat · April 24, 2019

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Except Sam wasn't villainized on screen. He suffered no negative consequences for anything he did. It was never mentioned and in fact Sam won. He told Dean to dump Benny or Sam would dump him. Dean did.

The text message was more than just mentioned in passing. They allowed Sam to talk about how much that hurt him, and how it made him think of Jessica. The even had Charlie say 'you ruined his life."

It was so not true. Because Sam left Amelia before Dean came back. And Dean told Sam in or out but make a choice. He left it up to Sam. But the show acted like Dean forced Sam back in the car.

But never once was anything Sam did brought up. Sam handcuffing Dean to a radiator, siccing Martin on Benny in the first place was all brushed under the rug. Dean was allowed to briefly walk away from Sam but he was punished for that when Cas went to get Sam and told Dean they needed him. Then in the end Dean was forced to give into Sam without calling Sam out on anything he did to him.

I remember Dean getting plenty of hate from the fandom for daring to see that text.

IMO, Sam was more than painted as the victim.

That text!!! he sent that text to get Sam out of there. Brilliant strategy just like he used Sam ranting on the phone in Blood Brothers to lure the vamps to him to kill them. Dean was a cold brutal mf to Sam.

I meant this on the best possible way. Dean did what he had to do to diffuse the situation in C.F. and keep everyone alive and he used Sam's rant brilliantly to keep himself alive and almost single handedly take down Benny's nest whilst Vennt dealt with his daddy and lady issues.

But it was also cold and it showed the rift that had developed between the brothers. Dean had Benny's back but in a very real sense he did not have Sam's.

In the end of course he chose Sam.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Castiels Cat

AwesomO4000 · April 24, 2019

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

For many fans Sam's character did not work because of writing choices. Many fans actively disliked the character. People here are being charitable when they say they like season 2 Sam best. IMO that is code for I really do not like Sam very much but he was still kind of nice before Kripke's big mytharc kicked in.

Maybe, but in my opinion, just as many or more fans seemed to say that season 8 with Benny and not looking for Dean was the last straw, and hated Sam after that... If before was "didn't like," then he was hated. Not an improvement, in my opinion.

Quote

The character actually needs to acknowledge that they need to change and that they made mistakes on a level that matches the mistakes that they made which never happened. Kripke and Gamble simply refused. And the idea that Sam hurt his brother repeatedly was never even broached.

I completely disagree. In my opinion, that Sam knew he needed to change was addressed. More than once. It was addressed in "Good God, Y'All." it was addressed in "Free To Be...." It was addressed in "I Believe..." and "Sam, Interrupted." And it was addressed in "My Bloody Valentine." In all of those episodes Sam admitted that it was him that made the wrong choice, him that had the problem. It was addressed by many, many other characters who reminded us that this was Sam's fault and that he made the wrong decision, too. Sam also admitted that Dean had been right.

That this wasn't enough for some fans doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it wasn't addressed.

And as for Sam hurting Dean and not addressing it, why is Sam held to a stricter standard than Dean? Because the above quote and this:

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They took him dark without a true redemption. And sorry having a character suffer in hell the worst hellpain ever is not a redemption. The character actually needs to acknowledge that they need to change and that they made mistakes on a level that matches the mistakes that they made which never happened.

Could just as easily apply to Dean in season 9 and 10, in my opinion. Dean did crappy things to help keep Gadreel in Sam, hurt Sam and lied to him, then took on a dark power (similar to how Sam did in season 4) and with that dark power, hurt Sam some more. Dean didn't acknowledge any wrong-doings, even though the Gadreel part was a partial repeat of what Dean did at the end of season 2 (which Dean also only barely admitted was wrong of him to do then.) The story even had Sam do the same thing, so Dean wouldn't be wrong for what he did. Dean didn't apologize or acknowledge that either thing was the wrong thing to do. He never acknowledged how much he hurt Sam by lying about Gadreel (And Dean was not under the influence of anything) or by what he said under the influence of the mark either... and there were almost no consequences. Dean got to help save the world by doing these things, both by Gadreel being "good" and by being able to stall Metatron with his dark powers so Castiel could finish the mission.

No one - except Sam, who was later shown to do the same and therefore was shown as also wrong - told Dean what he did was wrong. Garth told Sam he was over-sensitive but maybe had reason to be insecure, because he was a loser (nicely, in a Garth way, of course). Kevin told him to get over it. Castiel got him to say it wasn't that bad after all. With the Mark of Cain, the narrative even implied that it was Sam and Castiel who were wrong (with God affirming the Sam part: "Ehn Dean took on a dark power and became a demon, so what? It was really Sam who was the problem."

So why is that acceptable for Dean while it isn't for Sam? Why does Sam's character have to be given "harsh" treatment to atone in order to be "likeable" while Dean gets to be a hero, have good consequences, and not have to admit he was wrong (for either thing) for his questionable / dark behavior, but still gets to be likeable? That seems a bit one-sided to me. *shrug*

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

And by the end in season 10 he went dark to save his brother and in season 11 Sam received a credible redemption arc.

But what was this redemption arc? That Sam's role and worth is to do what his brother says and just accept his brother's choices for him no matter what, and step aside and be the cheerleader? Because if that is the message, I can see why those who previously didn't like Sam would like this "redemeption", because it means Sam's role in the show is not one of equal partner, but only to go along with and accept as right whatever Dean says and to support him no matter what.

And I'm saying this as a person who loved season 11 - but I didn't love that message. I thought that it was fairly crappy actually.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AwesomO4000

tessathereaper · April 25, 2019

7 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

That text!!! he sent that text to get Sam out of there. Brilliant strategy just like he used Sam ranting on the phone in Blood Brothers to lure the vamps to him to kill them. Dean was a cold brutal mf to Sam.

I would say Dean did what he had to do after Sam was a cold brutal MF to Benny and HIM. Sam sicced an unstable hunter on Benny who then got the wrong end of the stick completely with regards to who was doing the killing. Sam refused to listen to Dean. Sam allowed Dean to be knocked unconscious and chained up so that HE could go kill someone who was not at all guilty of what he was being accused of.

Dean was left with very little choice given Sam would not listen to him and was on this crusade to find any excuse he could to kill Benny, he had to do something to try and save Benny's life. I'd say that is more on Sam's being entirely unreasonable for no good reason other than his own pettiness and jealousy and looking to somehow even the score for killer Kitsune Amy over a year later. Dean wouldn't have had to take such an extreme action if Sam hadn't gone to such extremes and that wasn't putting someone else's life in danger. I doubt he thought Sam would just abandon another hunter in the middle of a literally active(not just research active but the actually physically dangerous part of the) hunt as opposed to calling it off or saying he needs his help to go with him or something of that sort and they could deal with this vampire later.

I didn't think anything in Blood Brothers was cold. Dean decided they could use some help, so he called Sam, in fact he was trying to get Sam off the phone quickly, held the phone to his chest to try and keep down the noise and texted him his information and asked Sam to stop talking but Sam kept talking so Dean used the opportunity it provided. I don't think that's cold just" hey he won't keep it down after I've asked him to, might as well use to my advantage instead of letting it get me killed."

DeeDee79 · April 25, 2019

4 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I would say Dean did what he had to do after Sam was a cold brutal MF to Benny and HIM. Sam sicced an unstable hunter on Benny who then got the wrong end of the stick completely with regards to who was doing the killing. Sam refused to listen to Dean. Sam allowed Dean to be knocked unconscious and chained up so that HE could go kill someone who was not at all guilty of what he was being accused of.

Dean was left with very little choice given Sam would not listen to him and was on this crusade to find any excuse he could to kill Benny, he had to do something to try and save Benny's life. I'd say that is more on Sam's being entirely unreasonable for no good reason other than his own pettiness and jealousy and looking to somehow even the score for killer Kitsune Amy over a year later. Dean wouldn't have had to take such an extreme action if Sam hadn't gone to such extremes and that wasn't putting someone else's life in danger. I doubt he thought Sam would just abandon another hunter in the middle of a literally active(not just research active but the actually physically dangerous part of the) hunt as opposed to calling it off or saying he needs his help to go with him or something of that sort and they could deal with this vampire later.

I didn't think anything in Blood Brothers was cold. Dean decided they could use some help, so he called Sam, in fact he was trying to get Sam off the phone quickly, held the phone to his chest to try and keep down the noise and texted him his information and asked Sam to stop talking but Sam kept talking so Dean used the opportunity it provided. I don't think that's cold just" hey he won't keep it down after I've asked him to, might as well use to my advantage instead of letting it get me killed."

Nothing but facts to be seen in this entire post.

ahrtee · April 25, 2019

What I always thought was strange was that Sam (a) immediately jumped to the conclusion that Amelia's life was in danger (IIRC, all the text said was "Sam come quick. I need you" (or something similar); and (b) that even if it was, he would get there in time (from however many states away he was) to actually *do* something. Surely the most logical thing would be to call her to find out exactly what was wrong instead of dropping everything and taking off with his tail on fire? Or at least telling her to call 911 or jump out a window to escape.

And that's the other thing I always thought was strange --that he never worried about monsters finding him (the way they found Dean when he was with Lisa), even though it was only a year after Lisa and Ben were kidnapped and nearly killed. So I can give Sam the benefit of the doubt that maybe that was what he was thinking when he got the text....but why wasn't he worried about that for the whole year he was with her?

Just curious.

tessathereaper · April 25, 2019

That's almost exactly what it said, just looked it up and she said "Sam I need your help, come quick". Yeah the whole thing was ridiculous, nothing in her text suggested monsters. And Amelia didn't know what he really did so it's not like she'd be attacked by monsters and think "Hey I should contact Sam about this, he'll be able to help"?

Honestly a text like that would be more likely something happened to the dog or something. So why not just call her and ASK her what is wrong? By the time he got there it could all be over. If she really was in trouble from monsters, he might be able to help her protect herself by giving instructions over the phone. If that text had been real, his reaction would more likely have gotten TWO people killed and not just one--Martin and Amelia.

DeeDee79 · April 25, 2019

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So I can give Sam the benefit of the doubt that maybe that was what he was thinking when he got the text....but why wasn't he worried about that for the whole year he was with her?

Just curious.

The same reason why he blew off taking the proper precautions when he was with Jessica. He put hunting behind him in order to have a "normal life" and ignored what happens just by having the name Winchester.

DeeDee79 · April 25, 2019

1 minute ago, tessathereaper said:

That's almost exactly what it said, just looked it up and she said "Sam I need your help, come quick". Yeah the whole thing was ridiculous, nothing in her text suggested monsters. And Amelia didn't know what he really did so it's not like she'd be attacked by monsters and think "Hey I should contact Sam about this, he'll be able to help"?

Honestly a text like that would be more likely something happened to the dog or something. So why not just call her and ASK her what is wrong? By the time he got there it could all be over. If she really was in trouble from monsters, he might be able to help her protect herself by giving instructions over the phone. If that text had been real, his reaction would more likely have gotten TWO people killed and not just one--Martin and Amelia.

Also if someone were to receive an emergency text and immediately jump in the car to get to the person ASAP wouldn't they logically call at some point during the journey to get an idea of what the issue is? Again, being a Winchester what would make him dismiss that possibility that he could have been walking into a trap? Especially considering that they had already had run-ins with Crowley more than once from the beginning of the season ( or year from a character viewpoint ) .

Castiels Cat · April 25, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe, but in my opinion, just as many or more fans seemed to say that season 8 with Benny and not looking for Dean was the last straw, and hated Sam after that... If before was "didn't like," then he was hated. Not an improvement, in my opinion.

I completely disagree. In my opinion, that Sam knew he needed to change was addressed. More than once. It was addressed in "Good God, Y'All." it was addressed in "Free To Be...." It was addressed in "I Believe..." and "Sam, Interrupted." And it was addressed in "My Bloody Valentine." In all of those episodes Sam admitted that it was him that made the wrong choice, him that had the problem. It was addressed by many, many other characters who reminded us that this was Sam's fault and that he made the wrong decision, too. Sam also admitted that Dean had been right.

That this wasn't enough for some fans doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it wasn't addressed.

And as for Sam hurting Dean and not addressing it, why is Sam held to a stricter standard than Dean? Because the above quote and this:

Could just as easily apply to Dean in season 9 and 10, in my opinion. Dean did crappy things to help keep Gadreel in Sam, hurt Sam and lied to him, then took on a dark power (similar to how Sam did in season 4) and with that dark power, hurt Sam some more. Dean didn't acknowledge any wrong-doings, even though the Gadreel part was a partial repeat of what Dean did at the end of season 2 (which Dean also only barely admitted was wrong of him to do then.) The story even had Sam do the same thing, so Dean wouldn't be wrong for what he did. Dean didn't apologize or acknowledge that either thing was the wrong thing to do. He never acknowledged how much he hurt Sam by lying about Gadreel (And Dean was not under the influence of anything) or by what he said under the influence of the mark either... and there were almost no consequences. Dean got to help save the world by doing these things, both by Gadreel being "good" and by being able to stall Metatron with his dark powers so Castiel could finish the mission.

No one - except Sam, who was later shown to do the same and therefore was shown as also wrong - told Dean what he did was wrong. Garth told Sam he was over-sensitive but maybe had reason to be insecure, because he was a loser (nicely, in a Garth way, of course). Kevin told him to get over it. Castiel got him to say it wasn't that bad after all. With the Mark of Cain, the narrative even implied that it was Sam and Castiel who were wrong (with God affirming the Sam part: "Ehn Dean took on a dark power and became a demon, so what? It was really Sam who was the problem."

So why is that acceptable for Dean while it isn't for Sam? Why does Sam's character have to be given "harsh" treatment to atone in order to be "likeable" while Dean gets to be a hero, have good consequences, and not have to admit he was wrong (for either thing) for his questionable / dark behavior, but still gets to be likeable? That seems a bit one-sided to me. *shrug*

But what was this redemption arc? That Sam's role and worth is to do what his brother says and just accept his brother's choices for him no matter what, and step aside and be the cheerleader? Because if that is the message, I can see why those who previously didn't like Sam would like this "redemeption", because it means Sam's role in the show is not one of equal partner, but only to go along with and accept as right whatever Dean says and to support him no matter what.

And I'm saying this as a person who loved season 11 - but I didn't love that message. I thought that it was fairly crappy actually.

They are dealing with Dean's issues now in seasons 12-14.

Many fans find that Kripke and Gamble dropped the ball, and I would venture to say that Carver is chief amongst them since he literally recreated Sam's heroic arc and tragic fall in seasons 8-10 complete with season 10 being Sam going very dark, way darker than either demonic Dean or MoC Dean, followed by an obvious redemption arc. I won't spell it out because I have done so once many pages ago; however suffice it to say the parallels are striking. It was obviously thought out and deliberate. And yes because Sam had no nifty powers and no demon blood or possession backstories to hide behind he came across looking petty and flawed. But hey, in season 11 I finally saw character growth. Sam apologizes to both Sully and Dean for the way he treated them. It had to be done.

I expect Dean to change too if they haven't just dropped his storyline. Unfortunately they are not giving him much time to do so. I guess that's for the best. It would not be Supernatural unless Dean Winchester is doing some reckless thing to save Sam now would it.

Castiels Cat · April 25, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe, but in my opinion, just as many or more fans seemed to say that season 8 with Benny and not looking for Dean was the last straw, and hated Sam after that... If before was "didn't like," then he was hated. Not an improvement, in my opinion.

I completely disagree. In my opinion, that Sam knew he needed to change was addressed. More than once. It was addressed in "Good God, Y'All." it was addressed in "Free To Be...." It was addressed in "I Believe..." and "Sam, Interrupted." And it was addressed in "My Bloody Valentine." In all of those episodes Sam admitted that it was him that made the wrong choice, him that had the problem. It was addressed by many, many other characters who reminded us that this was Sam's fault and that he made the wrong decision, too. Sam also admitted that Dean had been right.

That this wasn't enough for some fans doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it wasn't addressed.

And as for Sam hurting Dean and not addressing it, why is Sam held to a stricter standard than Dean? Because the above quote and this:

Could just as easily apply to Dean in season 9 and 10, in my opinion. Dean did crappy things to help keep Gadreel in Sam, hurt Sam and lied to him, then took on a dark power (similar to how Sam did in season 4) and with that dark power, hurt Sam some more. Dean didn't acknowledge any wrong-doings, even though the Gadreel part was a partial repeat of what Dean did at the end of season 2 (which Dean also only barely admitted was wrong of him to do then.) The story even had Sam do the same thing, so Dean wouldn't be wrong for what he did. Dean didn't apologize or acknowledge that either thing was the wrong thing to do. He never acknowledged how much he hurt Sam by lying about Gadreel (And Dean was not under the influence of anything) or by what he said under the influence of the mark either... and there were almost no consequences. Dean got to help save the world by doing these things, both by Gadreel being "good" and by being able to stall Metatron with his dark powers so Castiel could finish the mission.

No one - except Sam, who was later shown to do the same and therefore was shown as also wrong - told Dean what he did was wrong. Garth told Sam he was over-sensitive but maybe had reason to be insecure, because he was a loser (nicely, in a Garth way, of course). Kevin told him to get over it. Castiel got him to say it wasn't that bad after all. With the Mark of Cain, the narrative even implied that it was Sam and Castiel who were wrong (with God affirming the Sam part: "Ehn Dean took on a dark power and became a demon, so what? It was really Sam who was the problem."

So why is that acceptable for Dean while it isn't for Sam? Why does Sam's character have to be given "harsh" treatment to atone in order to be "likeable" while Dean gets to be a hero, have good consequences, and not have to admit he was wrong (for either thing) for his questionable / dark behavior, but still gets to be likeable? That seems a bit one-sided to me. *shrug*

But what was this redemption arc? That Sam's role and worth is to do what his brother says and just accept his brother's choices for him no matter what, and step aside and be the cheerleader? Because if that is the message, I can see why those who previously didn't like Sam would like this "redemeption", because it means Sam's role in the show is not one of equal partner, but only to go along with and accept as right whatever Dean says and to support him no matter what.

And I'm saying this as a person who loved season 11 - but I didn't love that message. I thought that it was fairly crappy actually.

Sam's redemption arc?. Did you miss him accepting responsibility For his choices and vowing to change his actions in the future as a result. Did you miss episodes like the Sully episode which focused on why Sam resented Dean and had this huge chip on his shoulder that caused him to need to prove himself, sometimes at Dean's expense, which Ruby used to seduce him. Did you see how he apologized to Sully for how he treated him and later in the season he apologizes to Dean.

I mean it has been several years but more or less these things stick with me.

Accepting responsibility for one's choices is a theme this season too by the way. It factored Bigly into Byzantium.

Probably because Dean erred in prioritizing his need to save his family over the safety of the world and thereby gave Michael access to this Earth and his OTV. Jack erred by thinking it was better to help than preserve his soul however heis unstable, Mary is dead... the ramifications are still playing out.

Res · April 25, 2019

24 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I expect Dean to change too if they haven't just dropped his storyline. Unfortunately they are not giving him much time to do so. I guess that's for the best. It would not be Supernatural unless Dean Winchester is doing some reckless thing to save Sam now would it.

That is not Supernatural to me. Nor is it why I watch. I watch for Dean and his character. I keep hoping for his character development instead of his constant sacrificing everything to everyone else. If the writers had any guys, they would have had him blow his top or go insane a long time ago.

Bergamot · April 25, 2019

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Except Sam wasn't villainized on screen. He suffered no negative consequences for anything he did. It was never mentioned and in fact Sam won. He told Dean to dump Benny or Sam would dump him. Dean did.

The text message was more than just mentioned in passing. They allowed Sam to talk about how much that hurt him, and how it made him think of Jessica. The even had Charlie say 'you ruined his life."

It was so not true. Because Sam left Amelia before Dean came back. And Dean told Sam in or out but make a choice. He left it up to Sam. But the show acted like Dean forced Sam back in the car.

But never once was anything Sam did brought up. Sam handcuffing Dean to a radiator, siccing Martin on Benny in the first place was all brushed under the rug. Dean was allowed to briefly walk away from Sam but he was punished for that when Cas went to get Sam and told Dean they needed him. Then in the end Dean was forced to give into Sam without calling Sam out on anything he did to him.

I remember Dean getting plenty of hate from the fandom for daring to see that text.

IMO, Sam was more than painted as the victim.

Yes, I agree.

I remember very well how the situation at the beginning of Season 8 was presented to us by Carver and Singer. If you look back at interviews they gave, there was no attempt to villainize Sam -- quite the contrary, in fact. Carver and Singer spoke very sympathetically of what Sam might have found in his life with Amelia. Also, Singer stated that Sam's conscience was clear as far as his decisions after Dean disappeared were concerned. (Although Singer did admit that "they" were responsible for Kevin, adding that this was what brought Sam back into hunting.)

Singer also said that at the start of the season Dean was being "less than forthcoming" (referring to the fact that he didn't tell Sam about Benny right away,) and that because of this, Dean being "judgmental" of Sam was "unfair" of him. In other words, I guess, because Dean didn't immediately spill about Benny, Carver and Singer felt he had lost any right to be upset about what Sam did. Sorry, I have to say I didn't see the equivalency there.

One article referred to Dean's feelings about Sam not looking for him as "petulance" -- as if he was being childish and sulky about the whole thing. Carver added that while at first Dean was "piling on Sam", later on the tables were going to turn "in terms of who has to answer for what" and Sam would get his "licks" in. I remember I was convinced that we would learn that Dean had done something horrible in Purgatory, something that would take away any moral standing he might have. (There never was anything, of course.)

But nothing makes me think that that they wanted to destroy Sam's character. To the contrary, they bent over backwards to defend and excuse Sam, and yes, make him look victimized. Let's face it, when someone gets "piled on", they are not being treated fairly. And I agree, the text message was a heavy-handed way to try to make Sam look mistreated by Dean, while totally ignoring what Sam had done that caused Dean to find it necessary.

The funny thing is, I didn't mind as much as I could have, that the show and its writers were determined to excuse Sam for his decision not to look for Dean. I think because Dean was allowed to express exactly how he felt about it, more than once -- he even brought it up in the final episode of that season. That makes a difference for me. And I was with Dean -- I never thought he was being petulant or unfair about it; I thought he was entirely justified, no matter what the writers said about it.

It was the situation with Benny that really bothered me, because the truth about what Sam did was never allowed to be spoken, by Dean or anyone else. I hated that Dean was forced to repudiate Benny because of Sam. But they didn't have to make Sam unlikable to make me like Benny. I just did, because I enjoyed so much Dean's interactions and relationship with Benny.

Which brings up the elephant in the room as far as Season 8 is concerned -- Sam and Amelia. When you read what was said about the season before it began, there can be absolutely no doubt that Sam's relationship with Amelia was supposed to be as important, as significant, and as compelling as Dean's interactions with Benny. Yet it was a total failure -- in the conception, in the writing, and in the acting. Sam and Amelia generated none of the interest and excitement that fans expressed about Dean and Benny. I think most fans either did not care about Amelia or actively disliked her. Whatever hopes that Carver and the writers had for the storyline, I think it just withered on the vine. The whole idea kind of crumbled and washed away, like a sandcastle on the beach when the tide comes in.

I think that the concept was to have the two sides balance each other, with Sam and Amelia on one side, and Dean and Benny on the other -- both brothers learning something about themselves and having to make choices. But with the disintegration on takeoff of the Sam/Amelia story, there was no balance, and no choices that Sam actually had to make, since there was nothing there, not really. And without the Amelia storyline, Sam was reduced to complaining about and obsessing over and ultimately working to sabotage Dean's friendship with Benny. Which made Sam look really selfish and weird and for me, terminally unlikable. Which I really don't think is what they intended, but along with the collapse of one ill-conceived storyline, that's what they got.

Myrelle · April 25, 2019

15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I agree.

I remember very well how the situation at the beginning of Season 8 was presented to us by Carver and Singer. If you look back at interviews they gave, there was no attempt to villainize Sam -- quite the contrary, in fact. Carver and Singer spoke very sympathetically of what Sam might have found in his life with Amelia. Also, Singer stated that Sam's conscience was clear as far as his decisions after Dean disappeared were concerned. (Although Singer did admit that "they" were responsible for Kevin, adding that this was what brought Sam back into hunting.)

Singer also said that at the start of the season Dean was being "less than forthcoming" (referring to the fact that he didn't tell Sam about Benny right away,) and that because of this, Dean being "judgmental" of Sam was "unfair" of him. In other words, I guess, because Dean didn't immediately spill about Benny, Carver and Singer felt he had lost any right to be upset about what Sam did. Sorry, I have to say I didn't see the equivalency there.

One article referred to Dean's feelings about Sam not looking for him as "petulance" -- as if he was being childish and sulky about the whole thing. Carver added that while at first Dean was "piling on Sam", later on the tables were going to turn "in terms of who has to answer for what" and Sam would get his "licks" in. I remember I was convinced that we would learn that Dean had done something horrible in Purgatory, something that would take away any moral standing he might have. (There never was anything, of course.)

But nothing makes me think that that they wanted to destroy Sam's character. To the contrary, they bent over backwards to defend and excuse Sam, and yes, make him look victimized. Let's face it, when someone gets "piled on", they are not being treated fairly. And I agree, the text message was a heavy-handed way to try to make Sam look mistreated by Dean, while totally ignoring what Sam had done that caused Dean to find it necessary.

The funny thing is, I didn't mind as much as I could have, that the show and its writers were determined to excuse Sam for his decision not to look for Dean. I think because Dean was allowed to express exactly how he felt about it, more than once -- he even brought it up in the final episode of that season. That makes a difference for me. And I was with Dean -- I never thought he was being petulant or unfair about it; I thought he was entirely justified, no matter what the writers said about it.

It was the situation with Benny that really bothered me, because the truth about what Sam did was never allowed to be spoken, by Dean or anyone else. I hated that Dean was forced to repudiate Benny because of Sam. But they didn't have to make Sam unlikable to make me like Benny. I just did, because I enjoyed so much Dean's interactions and relationship with Benny.

Which brings up the elephant in the room as far as Season 8 is concerned -- Sam and Amelia. When you read what was said about the season before it began, there can be absolutely no doubt that Sam's relationship with Amelia was supposed to be as important, as significant, and as compelling as Dean's interactions with Benny. Yet it was a total failure -- in the conception, in the writing, and in the acting. Sam and Amelia generated none of the interest and excitement that fans expressed about Dean and Benny. I think most fans either did not care about Amelia or actively disliked her. Whatever hopes that Carver and the writers had for the storyline, I think it just withered on the vine. The whole idea kind of crumbled and washed away, like a sandcastle on the beach when the tide comes in.

I think that the concept was to have the two sides balance each other, with Sam and Amelia on one side, and Dean and Benny on the other -- both brothers learning something about themselves and having to make choices. But with the disintegration on takeoff of the Sam/Amelia story, there was no balance, and no choices that Sam actually had to make, since there was nothing there, not really. And without the Amelia storyline, Sam was reduced to complaining about and obsessing over and ultimately working to sabotage Dean's friendship with Benny. Which made Sam look really selfish and weird and for me, terminally unlikable. Which I really don't think is what they intended, but along with the collapse of one ill-conceived storyline, that's what they got.

I remember everything that you remembered and I could not agree more with all that you've said here.

And it is nothing like the showrunners'/writers' intentions behind the Jack storyline especially where any kind or sort of "balance" involving the supposed lead characters on this show is concerned-not IMO, anyway.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

Castiels Cat · April 25, 2019

33 minutes ago, Res said:

That is not Supernatural to me. Nor is it why I watch. I watch for Dean and his character. I keep hoping for his character development instead of his constant sacrificing everything to everyone else. If the writers had any guys, they would have had him blow his top or go insane a long time ago.

Well this is what I am talking about. They were finally getting to the point where he would have character growth but now the show is ending.

It figures.

Pondlass1 · April 25, 2019

i think everyone in the writing room was high when they wrote season 8A. It made zero sense. Sam would look for Dean. He’d done just that in the episode Time After Time a few episodes ago.

However 8B Hit a bit close to home. Sam was green eyed jealous. He did not like that Dean found a friend. His guilt especially strong after Kevin and Amelia he was in full blown jealous rage with Dean. He shackled an unconscious Dean to a radiator for Pete’s sake.

It fit with everything for me. Sam wants Dean to himself. Just like the days in motels when John was gone and all he had was Dean. People say it’s Dean that’s needy. I think it’s Sam.

And that’s ok. These guys are broken and screwed to hell. It’s what’s kept me tuned in all these years. Who wants to see human perfection?

tessathereaper · April 25, 2019

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Well this is what I am talking about. They were finally getting to the point where he would have character growth but now the show is ending.

It figures.

I don't see where they are giving him any growth or were going to give him any growth. They literally had so little interest in him they barely talked about his character(either of them). Heck Dabb had a nice little dinner meeting with Jared at the beginning of this season but he couldn't be bothered to even give Jensen a couple minutes of input on what they were expecting from Michael.

AwesomO4000 · April 25, 2019

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam's redemption arc?. Did you miss him accepting responsibility For his choices and vowing to change his actions in the future as a result.

No, but he did that starting in season 5 also... multiple times... and did change his ways. After an early misstep or two, Sam kept Dean informed of things he was doing, when he needed help - like in "My Bloody Valentine" - and continued to have a much more honest relationship with Dean for most of season 5, and season 6B through 7, with that one misstep about not telling Dean about his hallucinations. After their agreement, however, Sam kept Dean informed from then on, giving Dean status updates on himself and letting Dean know when he was in trouble.

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did you miss episodes like the Sully episode which focused on why Sam resented Dean and had this huge chip on his shoulder that caused him to need to prove himself, sometimes at Dean's expense, which Ruby used to seduce him.

Yes and no, because in my opinion, that wasn't what that episode was about at all. I didn't get Dean resentment in the least. For me, that episode was about how Sam wanted wanted to fit in and be hunting with his family, and how grateful he was that Dean was able to talk John into letting Sam join the family hunting trip. For me, the "chip" on Sam's shoulder was feeling that he didn't belong and wasn't being included as part of the family business, not about "proving himself."

Sam's deal about "proving himself" came later in his life, in my opinion, when there was all the stuff about him going dark and he wanted to prove that he wasn't evil.

If "Just My Imagination" had been about Sam "proving himself" and resenting Dean, then Sam would have run away with Sully to prove to everyone that he could do it on his own and didn't need Dean or John. Sam apologized to Sully, because he had told Sully he didn't need him anymore when he got what he had been hoping for... a chance to be a part of the family and to belong. It wasn't until later - when at some point Sam and John no longer saw eye to eye in what they wanted out of life - that Sam likely learned that maybe Sully had been right, and likely wished he had listened to him more and taken advantage of his friendship.

In my opinion, Sam had some resentment for Dean in season 4, because Dean had decided for Sam to bring him back to life to a world where Sam was left alone to deal with a huge mess, where Sam had no choice at all to decide for himself that that's what would happen, and where Sam could do nothing to change it. And for Sam, that's a thing. He doesn't like having his agency taken away, so in my opinion, his reaction was understandable and human. Not pretty, but human. But after having Sam point this out early on (at the beginning of season 3), I think that the show didn't want to deal with any of that, so they changed it into something else and had the demon blood have an effect on Sam instead.

And that still doesn't explain that at the same time the writers/Carver were supposedly "redeeming" Sam in this harsh, character damaging way for not apologizing the way they thought he should have in season 5 through 7, they turn around and have Dean do similar stuff, but it's perfectly fine for Dean to not admit he made any mistakes or give Sam an apology. Nor do I think there ever will be - because the stuff done to Sam was retconned into being not so bad, to excuse Dean's actions instead. So I guess admitting wrong-doing and apologizing for mistakes is something only Sam had to do.

Which to me, still seems one-sided.

AwesomO4000 · April 25, 2019

23 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

i think everyone in the writing room was high when they wrote season 8A. It made zero sense. Sam would look for Dean. He’d done just that in the episode Time After Time a few episodes ago.

I so agree with this part of your post.

I can sort of see where you're coming from with the rest, but the fact that much of the rest, including the jealousy, stemmed from the zero-sense making stuff from the first half of the season kind of annoys me.

I also resent the Kevin thing. In my opinion, that was a really crappy thing to do to Sam's character.

BlueSapphire · April 25, 2019

40 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't see where they are giving him any growth or were going to give him any growth. They literally had so little interest in him they barely talked about his character(either of them). Heck Dabb had a nice little dinner meeting with Jared at the beginning of this season but he couldn't be bothered to even give Jensen a couple minutes of input on what they were expecting from Michael.

Where did this account of Jared meeting with Andrew Dabb come from?

tessathereaper · April 25, 2019

3 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Where did this account of Jared meeting with Andrew Dabb come from?

Jared himself as I recall, I don't have any links because I just couldn't be bothered to pay any more attention that that but I'm pretty it was mentioned at a convention or two.

Edited April 25, 2019 by tessathereaper

gonzosgirrl · April 25, 2019

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also resent the Kevin thing. In my opinion, that was a really crappy thing to do to Sam's character.

See, I don't think it was nearly as out of character as you do. Not this, and not Sam giving Dean up for dead and moving on. He was willing to leave Dean behind for college. Not saying he didn't have the right, but it is still a choice he made. He didn't even know Dean was hunting on his own, that's how little interest he showed. For all his self-righteousness in later seasons, right off the bat he was willing to leave the Wendigo people on their own because of his single mindedness.

gonzosgirrl · April 25, 2019

Still say the fact remains that throughout the series Sam's MO has been to either walk away, run, or threaten to walk away.

Edited April 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
spelling

AwesomO4000 · April 25, 2019

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See, I don't think it was nearly as out of character as you do. Not this, and not Sam giving Dean up for dead and moving on. He was willing to leave Dean behind for college. Not saying he didn't have the right, but it is still a choice he made. He didn't even know Dean was hunting on his own, that's how little interest he showed. For all his self-righteousness in later seasons, right off the bat he was willing to leave the Wendigo people on their own because of his single mindedness.

Well, as I said, about seven seasons happened since those examples and the beginning of season 8. The example I gave would be if Carver had had Dean all of a sudden go back to a policy of "if it's a monster we kill it," for no apparent reason. Sure Dean likely stuck with that policy for years while hunting, since it was John's policy, too, but in season 2 Dean started changing that philosophy after Lenore, and Madison, helpful ghosts, and others. If Carver had had Dean declare open season on Garth all of a sudden in season 9, because well Garth is a monster and we kill monsters, I would still think that was out of character for Dean even though Dean had gone with that philosophy for years in the past... because Dean had changed his mind and grown away from that philosophy since season 1.

Just because a character has done something in the past doesn't, in my opinion, mean that doing it would be in character for them forever more.

I'm not saying that you're not right about Sam doing those things - along with running away or threatening to - in the past. My point was that it was much less likely circa season 7 - until Carver made it a thing again, and that's why it seemed out of character.

I feel the same way about Dean's gross eating. Sure that's something that Dean did during the show... but it became much less likely as the seasons progressed. That is until the recent seasons when they brought it back. Now for me, though, instead of it being somewhat amusing, it just seems out of place and weird that Dean is doing it, and not really in character for him anymore.

As for the Wendigo people, another example was Ava. Sam tried a long time to find Ava when she disappeared.

ILoveReading · April 25, 2019

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It was the situation with Benny that really bothered me, because the truth about what Sam did was never allowed to be spoken, by Dean or anyone else. I hated that Dean was forced to repudiate Benny because of Sam. But they didn't have to make Sam unlikable to make me like Benny. I just did, because I enjoyed so much Dean's interactions and relationship with Benny.

This is how I felt. If they really wanted to paint Sam as the villian they wouldn't' have swept it under the rug. They would have had Dean mention it repeatedly like the text. But I find this is a pattern. They dont' want to address Sam's more narcissistic tendencies to they ignore them or write a storyline to support that he really is just that special. Its the exact kind of writing that makes a character dull and unappealing for me.

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Which brings up the elephant in the room as far as Season 8 is concerned -- Sam and Amelia. When you read what was said about the season before it began, there can be absolutely no doubt that Sam's relationship with Amelia was supposed to be as important, as significant, and as compelling as Dean's interactions with Benny. Yet it was a total failure -- in the conception, in the writing, and in the acting. Sam and Amelia generated none of the interest and excitement that fans expressed about Dean and Benny. I think most fans either did not care about Amelia or actively disliked her. Whatever hopes that Carver and the writers had for the storyline, I think it just withered on the vine. The whole idea kind of crumbled and washed away, like a sandcastle on the beach when the tide comes in.

It didnt' help how they introduced Amelia. She wasn't very likable and she was acting like Sam hit the dog on purpose. What vet would force an animal on someone. She doesn't know Sam's situation. I love dogs but due to my work schedule and the rules of my apartment its not possible for me to have one.

It didn't help either that the actress seemed completely unprepared for the role. I was listening to any interview with her and she mentioned she auditioned by videotape, and it didn't seem like she even did any back ground reading on the show because she had no clue on about Sam's history. They had to fill her in on his whole background.

I might give her the benefit of the doubt and say it might be sort of method acting (since Amelia would only know what Sam told her), but she didn't even know Jensen was director for the first day. She thought he was a bossy actor.

The whole situation was just odd.

10 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I remember I was convinced that we would learn that Dean had done something horrible in Purgatory, something that would take away any moral standing he might have. (There never was anything, of course.)

Part of me wondered this as well. I believe it was Dean (but it might have been Benny. I don't tend to rewatch s8) who mentioned something about 'what we did down there..." I really wanted to know what it was. There was the person standing outside watching Sam. I don't buy that that was Amelia's husband. It just seemed like they pulled him out of thin air. as a way to get rid of the story.

They seemed to have something more planned that was dropped when Amelia went over like a lead ballon and Carver through the purgatory out along side it.

gonzosgirrl · April 25, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Just because a character has done something in the past doesn't, in my opinion, mean that doing it would be in character for them forever more.

And I'm not saying that either. I'm saying something that is innate, part of your nature, will always lead you to that choice, and then, if you've grown and/or matured, you choose to react differently (as Sam did, on occasion, both before this and in later seasons). IMO, Sam, faced with utter despair in light of 7x23, chose to do what is his nature. I.M.O.

The irony here is, according to other posts from people who were in fandom at the time, this was absolutely not the writers' intentions. This was Sam making a 'mature' choice. My interpretation (or head-canon I suppose) actually paints him more kindly, I think - that he just couldn't help himself, not that he actively chose to abandon Dean to his fate.

Edited April 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl · April 25, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the Wendigo people, another example was Ava. Sam tried a long time to find Ava when she disappeared.

I would submit that Sam tried hard(er) to find Ava because he related to her. Another innate quality he has displayed throughout the series.

AwesomO4000 · April 25, 2019

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would submit that Sam tried hard(er) to find Ava because he related to her. Another innate quality he has displayed throughout the series.

Even if relating to Ava is the only reason Sam tried so hard to look for her - and I doubt that - why wouldn't Sam also relate to Kevin? Kevin had been considering college and a "normal life" very similar to Sam had been, before he, too, was given a fate beyond his control and was dragged into everything because of all of the heaven and hell mess? Sam related to Kevin the moment he met him in season 7, and theoretically he would be invested in Kevin also succeeding in having a life. So even if you want to go that route and reduce Sam's character to having only self-absorbed reasons for helping people, not looking for Kevin would still be out of character, in my opinion. Which for me goes back to it being done to make Sam look badly.***

From what I could see, Carver just made both Sam and Dean fairly callous towards Kevin for little reason, and seemed to find doing that more of a "joke" - like Kevin knowing the demons weren't Sam and Dean, for example, because the demons were too nice to him - and didn't seem to care that he was making them both look badly. Except I didn't find it very amusing at all, myself, and found it more sad than anything else that Sam and Dean were being reduced to these callous, self-absorbed jerks. Again, as with Benny, Carver seemed to more be wanting sympathy for the recurring characters than he cared about how Sam and Dean looked. He almost seemed to enjoy making them look self-absorbed and acting like jerks.

In my opinion anyway.

*** I understand all of the behind the scenes interview stuff supposedly hinting at trying to make Sam look good in season 8 - I didn't read any of them myself, so can only trust others' interpretations - but for me, in no logical universe would abandoning a friend and team member to certain torture and potential death ever fit in that realm of possibility. It's absurd for them not to have considered such a thing as looking badly, and the fact that Carver hung a neon sign on it with all of his "Eeeeat me" crap in the season opener shows he knew it looked bad but again thought he'd make a "joke" out of it. Well to him, I would say, excuse me if I don't find it amusing that you are painting characters that I happen to love as callous, cowardly, jerks who abandon people. What was I thinking being offended by that?

AwesomO4000 · April 25, 2019

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, Sam, faced with utter despair in light of 7x23, chose to do what is his nature. I.M.O.

The irony here is, according to other posts from people who were in fandom at the time, this was absolutely not the writers' intentions. This was Sam making a 'mature' choice. My interpretation (or head-canon I suppose) actually paints him more kindly, I think - that he just couldn't help himself, not that he actively chose to abandon Dean to his fate.

I actually don't disagree with you here.

I am not arguing that, after everything that happened in 7x23, a Sam who just couldn't take it any more, and had snapped and run away wouldn't be in character or that I wouldn't understand that. Actually the opposite, I entirely would - which is why for much of the first few episodes of the season I was waiting for the ridiculous, glowy flashbacks to turn out to be delusions, because Sam had snapped. (They certainly looked delusional to me anyway - I mean a surprise birthday picnic? Complete with lighted candle laden birthday cake? Really?) I just never considered that that was even an option, because that's not what Carver gave us.

Carver went out of his way to make it a conscious choice for Sam to just shrug his shoulders and say "I didn't think it was my problem anymore." Carver didn't tap into Sam's inherent nature to "run away." It looked like it at first, and there were hints that it could be, but Carver deliberately took that option away by having Sam not say he was sorry or explain that he just couldn't deal and ran away. We couldn't have Sam be the "bad brother" to Benny's "better brother" now could we if Sam had been remorseful and his behavior had been understandable. That wouldn't be dramatic enough.

The writers can say all they want about what they were supposedly trying to show, but the bottom line was they wanted a Sam / Dean angsty conflict, and the best way to do that wasn't to have Sam behave in a way that he normally might and either look for Dean and Kevin or snap and run away. Dean couldn't get "petulant" (as they apparently wanted) about either of those, because Dean would understand that. So for plot purposes and maximum angst, Sam had to be a jerk, had to not have understandably broken down, couldn't look remorseful, and couldn't have looked for Dean even for a little bit... and so that's what they made him be and do.

Edited April 25, 2019 by AwesomO4000

raven · April 25, 2019

MOD NOTE

Talk about the writers and how they hate X character all you want but STOP talking about each other and whether or not someone is posting redundantly. You all know better than to criticize and talk about each other.

ILoveReading · April 26, 2019

Cas leaning over Jack was just an exact repeat of Dean leaning over Cas.

Deans' relationship with Death has been handed over to Jack.

Sam gets the big talk with God (it almost looked like Jared cut Jensen off there) and of course God doesn't tell Sam to stop confusing him with his dad.

Once again they bring Dean right to the edge and yank him back without an real sense of catharsis. He's forced to once again bury all the trauma, hurt, and anger to accommodate Nougat Sue Snowflake. No, Jack is not Deans' son.

There really will be nothing unique left for Dean because I'm sure all his iconic kills will now be handed back over to Sam, Cas or Jack.

I really wonder Jared and Jensen told Dabb they were done and this was his way of taking it out on them. He really is an ego-driven petty talentless hack.

gonzosgirrl · April 26, 2019

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I really wonder Jared and Jensen told Dabb they were done and this was his way of taking it out on them. He really is an ego-driven petty talentless hack.

I don't know how far ahead they see scripts, but if knowing his storyline was handed off to Jack put the wheels in motion for Jensen, I'd say this pushed the bus over the cliff.

The bolded will be Dabb's epitaph as far as this fan is concerned.

Lastcall · April 26, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Cas leaning over Jack was just an exact repeat of Dean leaning over Cas.

Deans' relationship with Death has been handed over to Jack.

Sam gets the big talk with God (it almost looked like Jared cut Jensen off there) and of course God doesn't tell Sam to stop confusing him with his dad.

Once again they bring Dean right to the edge and yank him back without an real sense of catharsis. He's forced to once again bury all the trauma, hurt, and anger to accommodate Nougat Sue Snowflake. No, Jack is not Deans' son.

There really will be nothing unique left for Dean because I'm sure all his iconic kills will now be handed back over to Sam, Cas or Jack.

I really wonder Jared and Jensen told Dabb they were done and this was his way of taking it out on them. He really is an ego-driven petty talentless hack.

I touched on this over in the Moriah thread but I believe Dabb is a vindictive, spiteful petty person who takes his personal issues out on actors he feels have betrayed him. I think Jensen and Sheppard being vocal about the season 11 finale resulted in Mark getting humiliated for a year and killed off. Dabb couldn’t get rid of Jensen so he refused to write anything for him and gave all the good stuff to his idol Sam. All he used Dean for was to prop up and give his blessing to all the failed spin-off and Mary Sue characters. Then, after hanging out with Jared, Dabb thought they were buddies only to find out Jared wasn’t happy with his crap stories either. Now he seems to be going after Sam at a level that makes his Dean and Crowley treatment look like love letters.

I know it wasn’t “authorial intent” but Dabb has set up a scenario where Sam continues to put the world in danger, causing millions (now probably billions) of deaths and Dean has to clean up his mess. Thing is with the current group, I think Jack will save the day while proving that Sam and Dean were the problem all along.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lastcall

Pondlass1 · April 26, 2019

I actually thought Dabb might be resigning when he didn't show for the 300 episode party without explanation or even anyone asking where he was.

He still might. This is going to be a difficult summer for the writers. God is bad? How do you write yourself out of that one?

There's lots of speculation that this wasn't Chuck, it was an impostor. So maybe they'll go that route.

I wonder if the Js will get episode scripts as they're written over the summer? Maybe they will provide input? They usually don't know until a few days before filming starts and by then half the season is written. But this is the final. A lot rests on this iconic show going out with a bang.

Dabb should not be left to just regurgitate old stories.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Pondlass1

Aeryn13 · April 26, 2019

There is an episode of Stargate where they kinda go meta about doing Sci-fi shows and several people pitch stories/episodes. You get to see those played out as funny little clips. One makes up an elaborate scenario where the team is hopelessly surrounded and outnumbered by a gazillion enemies with no chance in hell of escaping. Then the scene just cuts away and comes back with the team arriving at home base, perfectly fine and going "phew, that was close". And everyone is going "what the hell, this is terrible writing" and points out why.

That was a funny meta joke on bad writing. Supernatural does stuff like that in earnest and thinks it`s good writing. I wouldn`t be surprised if something like this happens to resolve the "cliffhanger".

AwesomO4000 · April 26, 2019

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I know it wasn’t “authorial intent” but Dabb has set up a scenario where Sam continues to put the world in danger, causing millions (now probably billions) of deaths and Dean has to clean up his mess.

Whereas I think that this was the authorial intent all along. For me, the "Sam messes up, so that Dean has to fix it" thing has been going on pretty consistently since the start of season 8, even including Dabb influenced season 11B and most of season 13 and 14.

I saw Sam as leader as a set up for him to fail at it - which he did. There was no Sam "learning from his mistakes" or the "hero's journey" of messing up, but ultimately succeeding as leader. It was just Sam being set up to fail as I predicted it would be at the beginning of the season.

For me, having Sam start another apocalypse was pretty much expected. It's what they've done to his character for years, and they have been systematically undoing all of his character growth from the first seven seasons and turning him back into the "little brother" since the beginning of season 8.

And now they've even brought back Sam's hot headedness to help start this apocalypse.***

*** I think. My station cut out on and off and the moments when Sam shot at Chuck and why were part of that cutting out.

Lastcall · April 26, 2019

28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

*** I think. My station cut out on and off and the moments when Sam shot at Chuck and why were part of that cutting out.

Sam was pissed that Chuck killed jack. It’s as simple as that. So pissed in fact that he was willing take an infinite number of worlds and lives with him.

AwesomO4000 · April 26, 2019

2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Sam was pissed that Chuck killed jack. It’s as simple as that. So pissed in fact that he was willing take an infinite number of worlds and lives with him.

Okay yup, so they undid Sam from season 7 leaving his rage behind and becoming more Zen... so yes, as I said, a fairly systematic undoing of all of Sam's character's progress and using Sam to forward the plot no matter how it damages the character.

They needed someone to piss Chuck off and start the apocalypse, and we couldn't have Dean do that directly, could we? Because only Sam (and Castiel) start apocalypses. Dean fixes them.

Maybe when I rewtach, I'll get the impression that Dean's "Go to hell!" started Chuck down the path to apocalypse and Sam jut furthered it along, but I doubt it... Sam's been pretty much the plot whipping boy since Carver took over, and I doubt that that would change now.

I might finally be one with this show unless the beginning of next year changes things drastically. I'm tired of Sam's character being destroyed.

Lastcall · April 26, 2019

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Okay yup, so they undid Sam from season 7 leaving his rage behind and becoming more Zen... so yes, as I said, a fairly systematic undoing of all of Sam's character's progress and using Sam to forward the plot no matter how it damages the character.

They needed someone to piss Chuck off and start the apocalypse, and we couldn't have Dean do that directly, could we? Because only Sam (and Castiel) start apocalypses. Dean fixes them.

Maybe when I rewtach, I'll get the impression that Dean's "Go to hell!" started Chuck down the path to apocalypse and Sam jut furthered it along, but I doubt it... Sam's been pretty much the plot whipping boy since Carver took over, and I doubt that that would change now.

I might finally be one with this show unless the beginning of next year changes things drastically. I'm tired of Sam's character being destroyed.

It’s actually worse. Chuck was about to storm off in a huff. It was Sam trying to kill him that pissed him off to the point he decided to end the story.

Sign In

“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Aeryn13

BabySpinach

BabySpinach

Posted Images

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment