“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DeeDee79]

27 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

He wrote a comic, got on the show by teaming up with a better writer then got show runner because he was the last writer standing. That’s why him and Berrens are so desperate for a spin off. They know the gravy train is over and no one is going to hire the guy who killed supernatural and treated a highly industry loved actor like dirt.

So it sounds like all he's done is SPN. With how highly respected the lead actors are and how dirty he's done Jensen he should be planning to appease the actors during the final season instead of his ego. I can't imagine that he'll be highly in demand after two dismissed spin off attempts and unhappy leads that were in high regard by the network. Good enough for him.

[BlueDiamond]

I definitely think, that it was Jensen's initiative to end the show after 15th seasons and it's mostly because of how Dabb doesn't respect it and the characters. He ruined IMO everything that this show ever stood for. And the most, he is destroying Dean. 

I also think that Jensen was most likely lured in into signing the contract for s14&15 with false promises and Dabb probably thought that the guy is too loyal to do anything about it. Looks like he was wrong and full of himself. Jensen saw the future scripts and how little there was for Dean (or heck, for both brothers really and how Dabb would much rather write for his per characters) and had enough and probably did what Dabb never thought he would. 

While I do think that ultimately both j2 made that decision together, it was Jensen's idea and Jared possibly had a harder time making it - hence the difficulties with a scene about accepting the end of something and putting it into a box and how "Dean" quit on them. 

I also think that Jensen really is thinking about his future post-SPN. He started promoting himself more and more separate from the show - Bacchus parade for example - and while he of course still loves the show in general and working with so many people he's friends with, I can kinda feel, that he's not into the current season. he bearly post about it. 

All in all, Dabb is getting exactly what he deserves and I can't wait to see what Jensen will do next. 

[ster1]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I do think both Dabb (and Berens) are vindictive enough to make the final Season a scorched Earth like spoiled children. Unless someone tells him/them that this might not make the best impression on his future resume. I mean, it`s not like stuff like that doesn`t get noticed.  

Still, I would be very wary of where things are heading, especially for Dean.  

 

If the decline in writing is truly one of the reasons the Js are leaving, then it's possible they themselves might be more vocal. No doubt that Jensen and Jared want to end on a high note and there's really nothing to be gained anymore by being politically correct about the crappy writing.  Because, seriously, how demeaning is it for two show leads to be relegated to a supporting "dad" role?  I can't imagine either J being okay with ending their 15 year SPN run on that note.  

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Has he written other eps that were bad for Dean?

I don't think so. As I said above if anyone fared badly in Glass' episodes, I thought that it was Sam... though I guess it could be said that "Southern Comfort" wasn't really good for either brother.

His last episode, "About a Boy," I also thought was pretty pro-Dean, though I guess it could be argued that Jensen himself wasn't in it as much. Interesting that two of Glass' episodes had de-aged Dean in them, though... so maybe he liked Dean as a character, but found ways for someone else to play Dean in his episodes sometimes?

Though with the episodes that Jensen was Dean, they still seemed more Dean-friendly than Sam-friendly to me, especially after season 7.

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I never heard that. Glass wrote Bad Boys which I thought was quite sympathetic to Dean. Has he written other eps that were bad for Dean?

Glass was a weird one. No, he doesn't appear to have liked Jensen because of what happened with Gamble - though why he only blamed Jensen is unclear - but I actually do believe he liked the character of Dean. And frankly when it comes down to it, that's all that matters, especially in the writing for this show. He found the perfect work-around when he created his young Dean and found the perfect actor. Those were great episodes, IMO, and I think they were among Glass's favorites too. And I don't recall any truly punitive writing for Dean in general in Glass's episodes, though at this moment I'm probably just forgetting which episodes he wrote, aside from the young Dean episodes since they were his last ones before he moved onto the Criminal Minds spin-off, that was canceled a year or two ago. Don't know where he is now.

Edited March 27, 2019 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

11 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wonder if Jensen will go the Mark Sheppard route and dish about all of the bts drama with Dabb. He really seems to have a problem with Jensen and has made Dean suffer for it. Besides SPN what else has Dabb done? I'm unfamiliar with him outside of this show. 

If our spec is correct he might  do it next year.  He still has a year to film and 24 episodes is enough to completely wipe out Dean as a character and his history.

As it stands now Dean doesn't really have a legacy on the show.

Saving people, hunting things has been mocked and belittled to the point it no longer an iconic line.   Plus, Dean doesn't seem to want to hunt anymore.  Sam finds all the cases and does all the leg work.

Because of the whole Leader Sam stuff its Sam whose inspiring the next generation of hunters.

The kill of the yellow eyed demon and Cain was cheapened by them creating a yellow eyed demon/cain hybrid for Sam to kill.  (and with Michael's lance).

He played no part in ending Michael, and Im pretty sure Lucifer is coming back.  (Not spoiler) So saying yes was pointless.

They gave his kill of Zacheriah to Sam.

Amara was softened up by the pidgeon lady.

Eve, but killing her didn't really make a difference since monsters are still out in full force.

So what exactly will Dean's legacy be?  Probably learning to let Sam grow up and recognize that he's a big boy becuase that storyline has only been done multiple times.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So what exactly will Dean's legacy be?

Breaking in Hell and kickstarting the apocalypse. I'm sure they'll find a way to point that out before it's over, without any context or counterbalance. Cartoonish, broad strokes are all they seem capable of writing for Dean.

[tessathereaper]

8 hours ago, ster1 said:

If the decline in writing is truly one of the reasons the Js are leaving, then it's possible they themselves might be more vocal. No doubt that Jensen and Jared want to end on a high note and there's really nothing to be gained anymore by being politically correct about the crappy writing.  Because, seriously, how demeaning is it for two show leads to be relegated to a supporting "dad" role?  I can't imagine either J being okay with ending their 15 year SPN run on that note.  

I think I heard they told the network first(don't ask me where), I'd like to think they made certain "demands" for the final season and that they will back them up on it.  I mean honestly I can't see that the network gains anything by backing that petty hack Dabb or the other hack Berens, never mind the interns they keep hiring to write episodes.

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, BlueDiamond said:

I definitely think, that it was Jensen's initiative to end the show after 15th seasons and it's mostly because of how Dabb doesn't respect it and the characters. He ruined IMO everything that this show ever stood for. And the most, he is destroying Dean. 

I also think that Jensen was most likely lured in into signing the contract for s14&15 with false promises and Dabb probably thought that the guy is too loyal to do anything about it. Looks like he was wrong and full of himself. Jensen saw the future scripts and how little there was for Dean (or heck, for both brothers really and how Dabb would much rather write for his per characters) and had enough and probably did what Dabb never thought he would. 

While I do think that ultimately both j2 made that decision together, it was Jensen's idea and Jared possibly had a harder time making it - hence the difficulties with a scene about accepting the end of something and putting it into a box and how "Dean" quit on them. 

I also think that Jensen really is thinking about his future post-SPN.

I too believe Jensen made the initial decision, though I also don't believe he would have gone through with it if Jared wasn't on board. But I don't think it was a hard sell at all for Jared.  I think Jared would like to have to quit two or three years ago, but hung on as long as Jensen was sticking around.

I think they were signing year to year contracts at this point - I think that's the standard when a show is as long-running as this one - thus why they were considering possibly leaving the end of this season. I think they negotiated with the CW/WB for one more season to give everyone a chance to end it - though whether it ends right remains to be seen - mostly likely getting one last big salary bump. And that negotiation was probably happening the last couple of months.

21 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I think I heard they told the network first(don't ask me where), I'd like to think they made certain "demands" for the final season and that they will back them up on it.  I mean honestly I can't see that the network gains anything by backing that petty hack Dabb or the other hack Berens, never mind the interns they keep hiring to write episodes.

I don't know if Berens is sticking around next season - I don't know who on the current writers staff is staying, aside from Dabb and Buck-Lemming. We'll know sometime in the summer, probably. But I do hope one of their demands for staying another season was having some kind input into the storyline or how the show ends for their respective characters, at the very least. If they didn't do that, they were fools. But if writing/storytelling was one of the reasons for calling it quits - and it had to be, especially for Jensen - then I'd think that kind of demand would be paramount.

Jensen is like one of those patients a doctor has who has a very high tolerance for pain - but in this case he has a very high tolerance for being screwed over, time and time and time and time again, when it comes to storyline, plot, or writing in general for his favorite character. That it took this long, much longer than it would for most any other actor, is frankly amazing.

[Aeryn13]

I honestly don`t think they made or will make any demands in terms of storylines. Jensen isn`t the type and I believe Jared isn`t that unhappy with it. If either one wanted that kind of input, they would have gone for the producer credits ages ago. Like say someone like Mark Harmon may not write the scripts on NCIS but he decides what stays and what goes overall. 

Maybe for the Series Finale, they would like to have a say but until then, batten down the hatches, Dean-fans. 

[7kstar]

Others have said this, but Jensen didn't really say much about Dark Angel and he could have.  I don't think he will spill much because he is looking to his future and being that petty could harm better chances.

I'm hoping that losing the safety net for the writers, that they will step up.  They need something to show to help them gets new gigs as well. 

One major issue that hurts us, is any complaining to some degree falls on deaf ears since if your complaining you're still watching, hence it's working.

[SueB]

Quote

That’s Dabb’s problem in a nutshell. He packed his writers room with sycophants who towed the line with his vision of Samernatural. Then twitter ate up what ever crap he fed them pumping his ego with how much  of a genius he is. Then it was 3 years of how great Mary is, how much Lucifer needed to be a regular character and how the Waywards need to be around more. He seemed to love his little bubble and getting to hang out with Jared and as soon as reality hit (Jensen getting fed up) he chose to blame everything on Jensen and Dean. I really hope people were paying attention to this train wreck and Dabb never gets work again.

Is there some interview that came out where he put some sort of blame out there?  Sincere question.  This seems like news. 

[trudysmom]

On 3/27/2019 at 9:21 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I honestly don`t think they made or will make any demands in terms of storylines. Jensen isn`t the type

I agree Aeryn13, to a point.  I recall Jensen saying at some Con or other that he's very protective of Dean, that he knows him better than anyone.  I hope that protectiveness drives him to do whatever he can to make sure Dean's legacy isn't left in the toilet, how much he can actually do, I have no idea. 

I posted this before but for me it's clear as day that Dabb  craps all over Dean out of personal jealousy.  Jensen is everything he isn't:  handsome, talented, respected by his peers across the industry.  He's like the high school nerd who hates the handsome, popular athlete because he can't be him.  (Stereotypical, I know but I still believe it)  

[Lastcall]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Is there some interview that came out where he put some sort of blame out there?  Sincere question.  This seems like news. 

Mostly the Dean (Jensen) needed to go away so the other characters could breath thing. It really makes it sound like the reason Dabbs storylines (like Leader Sam the first time) weren’t taking off was because Dean (Jensen) was stealing all the attention. It was enough for Dabb to write a story specifically to get rid of Dean. I believe that decision and the path it send the show is ultimately why Jensen decided not to renew. I know we will probably never know the real story of what’s going on but it is apparent something happened.  Jared getting phone calls and dinners with Dabb while getting love letter episodes about Sam while Jensen can’t even get a question answered while Dean gets his lowest monster kill in the shows history looks like Dabb is playing favorites.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

Mostly the Dean (Jensen) needed to go away so the other characters could breath thing. It really makes it sound like the reason Dabbs storylines (like Leader Sam the first time) weren’t taking off was because Dean (Jensen) was stealing all the attention. It was enough for Dabb to write a story specifically to get rid of Dean. I believe that decision and the path it send the show is ultimately why Jensen decided not to renew. I know we will probably never know the real story of what’s going on but it is apparent something happened.  Jared getting phone calls and dinners with Dabb while getting love letter episodes about Sam while Jensen can’t even get a question answered while Dean gets his lowest monster kill in the shows history looks like Dabb is playing favorites.

There was also the comment about how Sam should have been a leader all along but Dean was holding him back.  That shows Dabb never thought Dean was leader in the first place.  It was that comment that told me he meant Dean needed to be off screen for the leader Sam stuff to work because of Jensen's screen presence. 

Now,

Spoiler

Dean's even calling himself cold and hard and Mary is smiling like she agrees he got that from her instead of refuting it.  That will be labled as character growth by Dean by the tumbr/twitter crowd, ignoring that Dean is actually the more compassionate brother.

I wish the show did end this year.  By the end of next year there will be nothing of Dean left.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ILoveReading

[7kstar]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

Is there some interview that came out where he put some sort of blame out there?  Sincere question.  This seems like news. 

https://tvline.com/2018/09/03/supernatural-spoilers-season-14-episodes-without-dean/

If you read the entire article it looks good and promises something strong for both leads.  The problem shows up when the Michael story is really only 3 eps and not really living up the expectations that Dabb himself set.  So it looks like he is giving the sort of answers fans want for Dean but really has zero intention of doing.  Dean didn't need any advice on how to play Michael as he wasn't going to be on screen for long and Michael/Dean hasn't been major in the scheme of this season.  I say this after watching the season.

Michael/Dean storylines feel like an afterthought.  "Oh, we need to do something with this what about..."

I had zero expectations for Michael/Dean.  So I enjoyed what little I saw.  However, if I thought we were going to get some really strong storyline I would have been bitterly disappointed.  It's been okay but as the season goes, why do it?  But I haven't been thrilled for Sam nor Cas either because really their own stories are stale. 

I don't know why Dabb can't deliver what he is supposedly selling other than it is lip service and he doesn't care about the three main characters.

Unfortunately, the damage done to Mary is past the redemption arc because they have made her so one dimensional instead of a complex character.  Had they made her more complex, showing with a few lines about how she wants to be a mother but she felt she was failing at it way back when the boys were little,  then it would have worked for her to do what they wrote for her.

I'm still trying to find the show I loved, but I'm tired of having to work for it.

[trudysmom]

Back last August DittyDotDot posted this in the Sam aka Moose Thread regarding Soulless Sam:

"Yes, it's the difference between TV and movie. In general, on movies, it's the director's vision primarily; the writer isn't even that involved. On TV, it's the showrunner's vision. It wasn't that Sera didn't have a clue about Soulless Sam, but they were leaving the acting up to Jared and not trying to tell him how to walk and talk. It's not just Jared they have a lot of confidence in, they left Demon Dean up to Jensen to find. They actually don't hand-hold their actors a lot on this show."

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Dean didn't need any advice on how to play Michael as he wasn't going to be on screen for long and Michael/Dean hasn't been major in the scheme of this season. 

I guess the difference is Soulless Sam took over the majority of the season, and it's aftermath seemed to drag on for what seemed like forever. But which of these two opinions makes more sense?  I know I saw Jensen at a convention saying he asked for direction on playing Michael, and Dabb pretty much blew off his questions.  Was that standard procedure, then, or Dabb being a dick?  I mean, if an actor of Jensen's caliber asks for some guidance, you either give it or admit outright you don't know yourself, right?  But Sera didn't really offer any to Jared, either, when he was soulless. 

Not trying to open a can of worms here, just curious.  I really went on Sam's thread to see if anyone else thought his hair was atrocious in season 10.  Man it was awful. 

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I don't know why Dabb can't deliver what he is supposedly selling other than it is lip service and he doesn't care about the three main characters.

Which begs the question - why is he still the guy in charge? Is he not held to any standard? Can he do whatever he wants with absolutely no interference from The CW/WB? How does he get to keep his job as showrunner when so many others have lost their position and been replaced? I can't begin to describe how infuriating his tenure is!!!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I'm still trying to find the show I loved, but I'm tired of having to work for it.

Perfect summation of what I'm sure that many Dean girls are feeling.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Was that standard procedure, then, or Dabb being a dick?  I mean, if an actor of Jensen's caliber asks for some guidance, you either give it or admit outright you don't know yourself, right?  But Sera didn't really offer any to Jared, either, when he was soulless. 

Did Jared actually say this? The statement that you quoted doesn't say if this info was provided at a con or an interview regarding Soulless Sam. All I remember hearing is how Jared didn't like the SL and asked Sera to wrap it up sooner than she had planned since it was supposed to go on until the end of season 6. 

8 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

How does he get to keep his job as showrunner when so many others have lost their position and been replaced? I can't begin to describe how infuriating his tenure is!!!

Well we know that Kripke and Carver left and Gamble (which I found out here ) was basically forced out because Jared and Jensen went over her head. I would assume that they could do the same with Dabb since I'm sure that they have more clout now than they did back then.

[FlickChick]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Did Jared actually say this? The statement that you quoted doesn't say if this info was provided at a con or an interview regarding Soulless Sam. All I remember hearing is how Jared didn't like the SL and asked Sera to wrap it up sooner than she had planned since it was supposed to go on until the end of season 6. 

Well we know that Kripke and Carver left and Gamble (which I found out here ) was basically forced out because Jared and Jensen went over her head. I would assume that they could do the same with Dabb since I'm sure that they have more clout now than they did back then.

Although this was true, I was under the impression that it was Sera's shortcomings regarding budget and scheduling that was her undoing. IOW, if she was just fine at those important things, would the Js be able to get her out as showrunner?

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

But Sera didn't really offer any to Jared, either, when he was soulless. 

I seem to remember reading (I'll have to googlefu it to veriry) that Sera had a long talk with Jared about Soulless Sam during the hiatus before filming began.  I would imagine she had some idea of what she wanted from him. 

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

Although this was true, I was under the impression that it was Sera's shortcomings regarding budget and scheduling that was her undoing. IOW, if she was just fine at those important things, would the Js be able to get her out as showrunner?

That was my understanding as well.  Bob Singer was called back in to rein in the budget issues.  Sera was still in charge of story. 

[Lastcall]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Which begs the question - why is he still the guy in charge? Is he not held to any standard? Can he do whatever he wants with absolutely no interference from The CW/WB? How does he get to keep his job as showrunner when so many others have lost their position and been replaced? I can't begin to describe how infuriating his tenure is!!!

I agree with everything you wrote. I believe the CW thinks there is no life left in the show and they have bigger problems with the shows they thought were the future (charmed and The Flash). Any talent they have is going to prop those shows. No matter how crap the writing got, Supernatural always stayed their number 2 show. Pedowitz should have stepped in season 12 when it was apparent what Dabbnatural would be particularly after what they did to Sheppard. Instead of saving the mothership they went all in on the spin off  for season 13. Apparently, Pedowitz got mad at the backlash for not going to series so I don’t think he was motivated to save the show at all. Now the well is poisoned and the CW is trying to save their network, not just one show. Dabb is in a unique position where he can write all the garbage he wants and nothing will be done about it. The only solace I take is Dabb never believed Jensen would quit over it and reality hit him in his smug face around the 300th episode party.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was my understanding as well.  Bob Singer was called back in to rein in the budget issues.  Sera was still in charge of story. 

So she just left of her own volition? I actually read on this thread that the J's were unhappy about Cas & Bobby being killed and Baby being benched along with the budget issues and all of the above were what caused her exit.

6 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

The only solace I take is Dabb never believed Jensen would quit over it and reality hit him in his smug face around the 300th episode party.

This lessens the blow for me also.

[FlickChick]

3 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I agree with everything you wrote. I believe the CW thinks there is no life left in the show and they have bigger problems with the shows they thought were the future (charmed and The Flash). Any talent they have is going to prop those shows. No matter how crap the writing got, Supernatural always stayed their number 2 show. Pedowitz should have stepped in season 12 when it was apparent what Dabbnatural would be particularly after what they did to Sheppard. Instead of saving the mothership they went all in on the spin off  for season 13. Apparently, Pedowitz got mad at the backlash for not going to series so I don’t think he was motivated to save the show at all. Now the well is poisoned and the CW is trying to save their network, not just one show. Dabb is in a unique position where he can write all the garbage he wants and nothing will be done about it. The only solace I take is Dabb never believed Jensen would quit over it and reality hit him in his smug face around the 300th episode party.

I can't tell you how really, really sad all of this makes me feel. I think there is something seriously wrong with Dabb - like psychologically. Pedowitz probably came to same conclusion. Regarding bolded - that could explain why he didn't even show up, if memory serves. And only had his assistant send a brief tweet. How disgusting!

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

So she just left of her own volition? I actually read on this thread that the J's were unhappy about Cas & Bobby being killed and Baby being benched along with the budget issues and all of the above were what caused her exit.

Oh I think she flat out was fired but not because J2 wanted her gone per se. I think it was a number of things but I would presume primarily going over budget won't win favors with the network on top of killing off two fan favorites. 

[DeeDee79]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I think she flat out was fired but not because J2 wanted her gone per se. I think it was a number of things but I would presume primarily going over budget won't win favors with the network on top of killing off two fan favorites. 

Oh, I see. That definitely makes sense. I’m not sure why she thought that killing off the brothers closest allies and honorary family members would be brushed off by fans.

[ILoveReading]

From what I remember about season 6, Sera was over budget by the 3rd episode.   So Singer stepped in to run the  that side of things.

I do remember an article that made it sound like Sera was asked to leave, but didn't outright state.  I have no idea how much say Jared and Jensen had but I do know that Jensen didn't like the fact that they put Baby in a corner and killed off Bobby and Cas and that he fought to get them back.

I have no idea if Sera talked to Jared or not, but IMO, that story needed direction.  No one had a clear idea of exactly what souless was.  It changed from episode to episode.  He wasn't supposed to have feelings, except when he did.  He was supposed to not need people, expect when he did, he was supposed to be uncaring, expect when he wasn't.  He was supposed to be ruthless, expect when he was naive puppy.  That storyline suffered from lack of direction.

This storyline was supposed to last all season but it went over like a lead balloon and it was dropped.   IMO, it doesn't matter if she trusted Jared on Dabb trusted Jensen because there is one thing that is a known fact. Jensen asked for help.  He wanted help.  He was struggling to find the direction to take Michael in.  The fact that Dabb blew him off wasnt' about trust, it was about him having little to know interest in the story and that showed.  He didn't answer Jensen because it was a story he had no intention of telling. 

It was extremely unprofessional of Dabb to just blow him off.  Jensen's response to that was "Im an island unto myself."  That doesn't sound like trust to me me.  That sound more like someone whose frustrated at being dismissed.  I'm glad Richard was about to help him because you could really see the difference in the 2nd ep when Jensen actually got a bit more feel for the character and got the help he was looking for.

[Pondlass1]

I don’t think Jensen wanted direction on how to play Michael so much as where the story line was going to go.  I know Jensen likes to be in the moment and not read ahead, but he needed to know Michael’s headspace and motives.  Apparently he got nothing. And we know why.  Michael was going nowhere in season 14.  Dabb knew it, so he wasn’t bothered.  He wanted his fucking hit spin off so bad.

What gets up my nose is that Jensen was SO excited for Michael. He grinned out loud that he was surprised how long the SL was going to last.  His enthusiasm was palpable.

And then Dabb let him down.  Michael went nowhere.  Hardly figured in the plot. And Dean bounced back so quick why did they even bother. Consumption Jack got more tea and sympathy.

I can never forgive Dabb.  Michael could have been a shot in the arm for the show, especially with Jensen’s acting skills. 

Jensen is a class act and probably won’t say anything for years. But my own heart tells me there’s something with Dabb and Jensen. 

😡

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I think she flat out was fired but not because J2 wanted her gone per se. I think it was a number of things but I would presume primarily going over budget won't win favors with the network on top of killing off two fan favorites. 

Going over budget was a big deal, but Singer was brought in to help manage Kripke as he too went over budget.  The story at the time is that she was moving on to a new show.  They never said they let her go.  Jensen kind of backtracked saying he didn't understand where Gamble was going with the Lisa and Ben storyline. But fans weren't happy, although there are always fans that are HAPPY during a season.  

So she left and Carver came. 

8 hours ago, Lastcall said:

Apparently, Pedowitz got mad at the backlash for not going to series so I don’t think he was motivated to save the show at all. Now the well is poisoned and the CW is trying to save their network, not just one show. Dabb is in a unique position where he can write all the garbage he wants and nothing will be done about it. The only solace I take is Dabb never believed Jensen would quit over it and reality hit him in his smug face around the 300th episode party.

 

To be honest I think Pedowitz is smart enough to know that Dabb isn't the go-to guy for getting a series off the ground and running.  If he had faith in Dabb then the show would have been picked up, period.

Oh, something will be done just may not be in time for Supernatural especially since there is only one more season.  When he goes to pitch for trying to launch a series as a Showrunner or head writer, they will think about Supernatural.  The question is do those that produce shows BELIEVE that Dabb has done an excellent job or is the fans complaining being heard.  The other issue is how many FANS are really upset?  Sure there are some vocal dean fans but is there really enough complaints all over the fandom, and if we leave we hurt Jensen and Jared too. 

J2 and Misha care about the crew and they've given them the best they can do.  A year to find a new job.  Those in the business know it's risky.  But if they've done a good job they will get new jobs.  They may have to leave where they live but they can find work.

Dabb is in the same place he will have to find new work.  J2 have money that if they take a serious break they will do just fine.

I've seen shows come and go and I do wonder how long this fandom will continue but Star Trek comes to mind as a fandom that continued long after the show went off the air.  It only ran 3 years.  But it launched so many new shows.  Some shows live in fanfiction long after the show ended. 

I'm hoping that Dabb will do his best work since the dream of launching his sequel is gone and the actors may be difficult to get back.  If he really does a terrible ending to the show it will harm him when he has to find new work.  Hopefully, he is smart enough to know this.

I guess what was the real reason for the rewrite of the 300 ep, was it because they got JDM or did someone, not like the script?

Edited March 31, 2019 by 7kstar

[SueB]

5 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Going over budget was a big deal, but Singer was brought in to help manage Kripke as he too went over budget.  The story at the time is that she was moving on to a new show.  They never said they let her go.  Jensen kind of backtracked saying he didn't understand where Gamble was going with the Lisa and Ben storyline. But fans weren't happy, although there are always fans that are HAPPY during a season.  

So she left and Carver came. 

To be honest I think Pedowitz is smart enough to know that Dabb isn't the go-to guy for getting a series off the ground and running.  If he had faith in Dabb then the show would have been picked up, period.

Oh, something will be done just may not be in time for Supernatural especially since there is only one more season.  When he goes to pitch for trying to launch a series as a Showrunner or head writer, they will think about Supernatural.  The question is do those that produce shows BELIEVE that Dabb has done an excellent job or is the fans complaining being heard.  The other issue is how many FANS are really upset?  Sure there are some vocal dean fans but is there really enough complaints all over the fandom, and if we leave we hurt Jensen and Jared too. 

J2 and Misha care about the crew and they've given them the best they can do.  A year to find a new job.  Those in the business know it's risky.  But if they've done a good job they will get new jobs.  They may have to leave where they live but they can find work.

Dabb is in the same place he will have to find new work.  J2 have money that if they take a serious break they will do just fine.

I've seen shows come and go and I do wonder how long this fandom will continue but Star Trek comes to mind as a fandom that continued long after the show went off the air.  It only ran 3 years.  But it launched so many new shows.  Some shows live in fanfiction long after the show ended. 

I'm hoping that Dabb will do his best work since the dream of launching his sequel is gone and the actors may be difficult to get back.  If he really does a terrible ending to the show it will harm him when he has to find new work.  Hopefully, he is smart enough to know this.

I guess what was the real reason for the rewrite of the 300 ep, was it because they got JDM or did someone, not like the script?

If the WB did not offer the same financial underwriting for Wayward Sisters as they did Supernatural, I'm not sure anyone could have saved the show.  SPN costs over $2M per episode.  Even moving to Atlanta and trying for a cheaper production, I'm not sure they could get down to CW-affordable costs.  CW-affordable is ALL no-name actors/actresses with CGI SFx.    

[Aeryn13]

CGI is expensive. One of the most expensive shows on the CW is Legends of Tomorrow, though they noticeable scaled back in displaying their heavy-hitter super heroes. But it is worth it overall in terms of their Arrowverse and good relationship with Berlanti.

SPN is expensive because of course the leads salaries goes up with time- noone on Wayward could expect to make that kind of dough in their first to 5th year. The second most expensive factor is outdoor shooting, especially late night. That would have been the same for Wayward. 

Overall though if someone like Berlanti approached them with Wayward, they would make it. They went after Plec to stay with the network. Dabb and Berens simply don't have that clout with the network, that's why I wasn't surprised that when it came down to choosing between Wayward and Legacies, the latter won out. I was more surprised that it's doing reasonably well for CW standards and improved as a show.

I highly doubt when SPN is done, they will go after Dabb to pretty-please produce a show for them.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

CGI is expensive. One of the most expensive shows on the CW is Legends of Tomorrow, though they noticeable scaled back in displaying their heavy-hitter super heroes. But it is worth it overall in terms of their Arrowverse and good relationship with Berlanti.

SPN is expensive because of course the leads salaries goes up with time- noone on Wayward could expect to make that kind of dough in their first to 5th year. The second most expensive factor is outdoor shooting, especially late night. That would have been the same for Wayward. 

Overall though if someone like Berlanti approached them with Wayward, they would make it. They went after Plec to stay with the network. Dabb and Berens simply don't have that clout with the network, that's why I wasn't surprised that when it came down to choosing between Wayward and Legacies, the latter won out. I was more surprised that it's doing reasonably well for CW standards and improved as a show.

I highly doubt when SPN is done, they will go after Dabb to pretty-please produce a show for them.

Also Pedowitz's reaction to the ep over all seemed lackluster and luke warm. 

I think it was like, Kathryn is pretty good and Donna is funny.    Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[Pondlass1]

I don't think the Waywards could sustain weekly stories.. There's little substance there but long hair and skinny jeans.   The young people of today are fed a load of rubbish via TV networks. The television arena is pretty bad.   Lightweight hokey forgettable stories with unrealistic characters and scripts.

And even Supernatural has suffered under this shift in TV.  I recently vacationed in the States and there's this channel TNT that seems to broadcast Supernatural episodes all day long.  I have all the DVDs but don't often watch them (and Supernatural is no longer on Canada Netflix).  So when we got rain at the beach I watched TNT.

It really hit me hard how 'adult' the series was back in the early days. Oh. there was comedy and humour and yes, slapstick, but Dean was SMART y'all.  In fact the hunts seemed more planned, smarter and deadlier.  And the guys didn't run off into danger half cocked. Even the peripheral characters had weight and we cared.

It's childish now and repercussions from whatever supernatural calamity never stick much.  The boys just bounce back and onto the next calamity.  So why should we invest?

The scene with Dean and Sam in Prophet and Loss that they talked about at the last con was brilliant ... but we used to get that level of brilliance all the time in the early days.

Sigh:: 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't know who pulled the ultimate trigger on their decision to end things next year, but they have publicly mentioned repeatedly that they were discussing it and had an ending in mind.  I'm sure it's bittersweet for them.  They've had a long run, and have grown up on this show.  They've been insulated for past 14 years from the bullshit of Hollywood that they may have experienced with previous jobs.  That feeling of family is tough to walk away from.  Not to mention the steady income.  

What either one of them does next is anyone's guess.  As a Jensen fan, I do hope he continues acting, though I'm not a fan of the superhero idea at all.  There are so many options out there now with all of the original programming being done by Netflix, Amazon, etc., I'd love something like that.  But regardless, I will be very surprised if either one of them walks away bashing anyone on the show.  They have reputations as class acts, why throw that all away by dissing people on the way out.  I hope they don't do it.  Plus, I'm not convinced that Jensen or Jared are as disgruntled as some fans are.  I think there are plenty of other reasons for them to want to move on.  By the same token, it's possible they've been dissatisfied for the past few seasons, but stayed because of the crew and the comfortable atmosphere.  We may never know, and I'm fine with that.  I'd like to keep my rose-colored glasses on regarding the SPN experience.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I recently vacationed in the States and there's this channel TNT that seems to broadcast Supernatural episodes all day long.

TNT is awesome; this was how I binged watched before I had Netflix. I would DVR all of the episodes from the day ( usually about 4-5 eps ) and watch when I arrived home from work. I lucked out and was able to begin my watch starting with the pilot though I had seen an episode here and there when my mom was watching.

[tessathereaper]

On 3/30/2019 at 9:27 AM, trudysmom said:

I agree Aeryn13, to a point.  I recall Jensen saying at some Con or other that he's very protective of Dean, that he knows him better than anyone.  I hope that protectiveness drives him to do whatever he can to make sure Dean's legacy isn't left in the toilet, how much he can actually do, I have no idea. 

I posted this before but for me it's clear as day that Dabb  craps all over Dean out of personal jealousy.  Jensen is everything he isn't:  handsome, talented, respected by his peers across the industry.  He's like the high school nerd who hates the handsome, popular athlete because he can't be him.  (Stereotypical, I know but I still believe it)  

Exactly, the fact that the soulless Sam storyline lacked direction was blatantly obvious, it was never the same from episode to episode.  She should have given some sort of direction at least to Jared so he'd know how to keep a consistently in portraying it, even if the writing wasn't clear.  Instead one episode it was this, the other it was that, then it was something else.

Jensen asked for some direction, he probably just wanted a sense of where it was going, not minute details of how it should be played.  He's an actor, he knows how to do his job but his job is to play a role within a story - Michael didn't even really have any connections to any other characters, which can help define a character whose overall story isn't known yet so it was literally here is this character and we aren't giving you any idea of how he is tied to the overall story or any other characters, he exists in a vacuum. 

It's fine to leave it up to an actor if they have an idea of where it's going, when it's a storyline that's finite by nature.  Leave it it up to the actor to fill in the blanks but Dabb clearly didn't give Jensen any idea of where the story was going, of what it was supposed to be.  Jensen still did a great job with it, esp when he really had the chance to be Michael for basically a whole episode but clearly Dabb had nothing to tell him Dabb knew Michael wasn't going to do anything or going anywhere as a storyline or character.  He was basically just there so Jack could eventually turn dark beige by killing him.

On 3/30/2019 at 9:27 AM, trudysmom said:

I agree Aeryn13, to a point.  I recall Jensen saying at some Con or other that he's very protective of Dean, that he knows him better than anyone.  I hope that protectiveness drives him to do whatever he can to make sure Dean's legacy isn't left in the toilet, how much he can actually do, I have no idea. 

I posted this before but for me it's clear as day that Dabb  craps all over Dean out of personal jealousy.  Jensen is everything he isn't:  handsome, talented, respected by his peers across the industry.  He's like the high school nerd who hates the handsome, popular athlete because he can't be him.  (Stereotypical, I know but I still believe it)  

I really wish I could remember who said it, but there was an actor on the show, one of the recurrings I think, someone who had traveled with  Jensen through the airport a few times and he said the he felt like the guys in security often singled Jensen out for that reason, like this was their chance to get back at the handsome popular quarterback.  Which is so ridiculous because he was someone who used to try and stick up for other kids he saw being bullied.  There are three stories out there from people he went to school with about how he stuck up for them, one was a guy from junior high school, another was a guy in high school and there was also a girl from high school who mentioned him sticking up for her and also said as I recall that when she was in the hospital at one point during school, Jensen sent her a get well card, even though they didn't know each other very well.  So you know if his athleticism and good looks gave him a privileged position in school at least he used it for good as according to each of them, he didn't really know them very well, he just saw them being picked on and said something.  

So in any case I'm pretty sure Dabb fits that scenario, Dabb is jealous(which is a really stupid thing for a tv writer and show runner to be, I mean most of the time actors esp lead actors are going to be way better looking than him, he's not gonna get far if he keeps taking his jealousy out on them, it's Jensen he picks on because whatever the call sheet says, Jensen is clearly top dog)

As for the Waywards and Pedowicz, I'll be honest I never got the feelings that Pedowicz ever had high hopes for any of the spin offs.  Some hopes, because it would be nice to keep milking the cash cow, but I don't think he was angry about any backlash because I never got the sense he really thought they'd work, I think he already had a sense that the show works because of Jensen and Jared and without them, it's not really going anywhere.

Edited March 31, 2019 by tessathereaper

[tessathereaper]

15 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Going over budget was a big deal, but Singer was brought in to help manage Kripke as he too went over budget.  The story at the time is that she was moving on to a new show.  They never said they let her go.  Jensen kind of backtracked saying he didn't understand where Gamble was going with the Lisa and Ben storyline. But fans weren't happy, although there are always fans that are HAPPY during a season.  

So she left and Carver came. 

To be honest I think Pedowitz is smart enough to know that Dabb isn't the go-to guy for getting a series off the ground and running.  If he had faith in Dabb then the show would have been picked up, period.

Oh, something will be done just may not be in time for Supernatural especially since there is only one more season.  When he goes to pitch for trying to launch a series as a Showrunner or head writer, they will think about Supernatural.  The question is do those that produce shows BELIEVE that Dabb has done an excellent job or is the fans complaining being heard.  The other issue is how many FANS are really upset?  Sure there are some vocal dean fans but is there really enough complaints all over the fandom, and if we leave we hurt Jensen and Jared too. 

J2 and Misha care about the crew and they've given them the best they can do.  A year to find a new job.  Those in the business know it's risky.  But if they've done a good job they will get new jobs.  They may have to leave where they live but they can find work.

Dabb is in the same place he will have to find new work.  J2 have money that if they take a serious break they will do just fine.

I've seen shows come and go and I do wonder how long this fandom will continue but Star Trek comes to mind as a fandom that continued long after the show went off the air.  It only ran 3 years.  But it launched so many new shows.  Some shows live in fanfiction long after the show ended. 

I'm hoping that Dabb will do his best work since the dream of launching his sequel is gone and the actors may be difficult to get back.  If he really does a terrible ending to the show it will harm him when he has to find new work.  Hopefully, he is smart enough to know this.

I guess what was the real reason for the rewrite of the 300 ep, was it because they got JDM or did someone, not like the script?

It's not just Dean fans, Sam fans aren't all that happy either from what I can tell.  In fact the only group I can find who seem to be genuinely happy this season or with any of the Dabb seasons, besides Nougat Sue fans, are a group of Destiel fans on tumblr who think Dabb is their savior and is giving them "Destiel endgame" and write really long metas about it. LOL  The reaction from most fans seems to have been "well I'm sad and I'll miss it, but...it kind of hasn't been as good lately so I understand why the boys think it's time".  If Dabb had really been a good showrunner I think far more people would be of the "No it can't go yet, so much life in the show yet" persuasion than there appear to be.

[Lastcall]

9 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

It's not just Dean fans, Sam fans aren't all that happy either from what I can tell.  In fact the only group I can find who seem to be genuinely happy this season or with any of the Dabb seasons, besides Nougat Sue fans, are a group of Destiel fans on tumblr who think Dabb is their savior and is giving them "Destiel endgame" and write really long metas about it. LOL  The reaction from most fans seems to have been "well I'm sad and I'll miss it, but...it kind of hasn't been as good lately so I understand why the boys think it's time".  If Dabb had really been a good showrunner I think far more people would be of the "No it can't go yet, so much life in the show yet" persuasion than there appear to be.

The irony is no one would be complaining because if Dabb was a good show runner we would have a season 16 and 17.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

can find who seem to be genuinely happy this season or with any of the Dabb seasons, besides Nougat Sue fans, are a group of Destiel fans on tumblr who think Dabb is their savior and is giving them "Destiel endgame" and write really long metas about it. LOL 

I wonder how they feel now that Dabb killed the show they claim to love so much. 

[tessathereaper]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wonder how they feel now that Dabb killed the show they claim to love so much. 

Oh they are happy, because now they really think Destiel Endgame is coming soon.  It seems like all this group cares about is Destiel, the whole show is just clues and mirrors of future Destiel. 🙂  It's just sort of chance I happened onto that strain on tumblr.   I guess I followed one of them for something else, maybe they posted some nice stuff about Dean or I could have followed them due to another fandom entirely who knows, but now I keep getting these extreme Destiel posts on my dashboard.  LOL  I could unfollow but really it's harmless enough and the non-Destiel stuff they post is good.

Edited March 31, 2019 by tessathereaper

[FlickChick]

15 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Oh they are happy, because now they really think Destiel Endgame is coming soon.  It seems like all this group cares about is Destiel, the whole show is just clues and mirrors of future Destiel.

These people are lunatics because there is no fucking way that Destiel will ever happen on this show. (Please note that I'm not criticizing their interest in Destiel. Everyone is entitled to their ship). How anyone can think that Dabb has been a successful showrunner is beyond my comprehension. He singularly killed this show IMO. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

So in any case I'm pretty sure Dabb fits that scenario, Dabb is jealous(which is a really stupid thing for a tv writer and show runner to be, I mean most of the time actors esp lead actors are going to be way better looking than him, he's not gonna get far if he keeps taking his jealousy out on them, it's Jensen he picks on because whatever the call sheet says, Jensen is clearly top dog)

I don't know that Dabb is jealous of Jensen as much as he wants to drag Dean down  because of his IMO, affinity for Sam. I think he wanted Sam to be more heroic than Dean and he sees Sam as the poor put upon child who just wanted a normal life until Dean dragged him back kicking and screaming (which didn't happen canonically at all). I mean the comics penned by Dabb make that loud and clear.  I do think Dabb enjoys slapping Dean down and would do even if he wasn't played by Jensen. 

[ILoveReading]

It's nice to know it wasn't just my bias, bitterness that was telling me that Jensen (and Jared) were't happy with the writing this season.

[Lastcall]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It's nice to know it wasn't just my bias, bitterness that was telling me that Jensen (and Jared) were't happy with the writing this season.

I always knew Dabb would kill this show, ever since 12b. Spent that time losing all hope that anyone would step in and save it. I even thought Jensen gave up and was going through the motions to keep his friends employed. At least for tonight, this is the best feeling in the world, I feel like I got my show back.

[Allidean]

6 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Oh they are happy, because now they really think Destiel Endgame is coming soon.  It seems like all this group cares about is Destiel, the whole show is just clues and mirrors of future Destiel

Oh Chuck.  Not another "Johnlock Conspiracy".

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

It's not just Dean fans, Sam fans aren't all that happy either from what I can tell.  In fact the only group I can find who seem to be genuinely happy this season or with any of the Dabb seasons, besides Nougat Sue fans, are a group of Destiel fans on tumblr who think Dabb is their savior and is giving them "Destiel endgame" and write really long metas about it. LOL  The reaction from most fans seems to have been "well I'm sad and I'll miss it, but...it kind of hasn't been as good lately so I understand why the boys think it's time".  If Dabb had really been a good showrunner I think far more people would be of the "No it can't go yet, so much life in the show yet" persuasion than there appear to be.

As the resident out Destiel shipper around these parts,  I'm only seeing that from those who aren't actually Destiel shippers per se but more just wanting some kind of representation. I think even those that write a lot of metas are not expecting canon textual Destiel (I'm leaving the subtext out of this). I've read more that are accepting it won't be textual canon and have let it go. If anything Dean/Cas have had fewer scenes in s14 than s13.  So I think it's a few that still believe but most, like me, do not. 

[tessathereaper]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As the resident out Destiel shipper around these parts,  I'm only seeing that from those who aren't actually Destiel shippers per se but more just wanting some kind of representation. I think even those that write a lot of metas are not expecting canon textual Destiel (I'm leaving the subtext out of this). I've read more that are accepting it won't be textual canon and have let it go. If anything Dean/Cas have had fewer scenes in s14 than s13.  So I think it's a few that still believe but most, like me, do not. 

Oh trust me these ones are expecting it, in fact that is the whole point of the metas, and they are definitely Destiel shippers.  I didn't say they were a large group, just a, as I called them, "strain" of shippers, so a small extreme off shoot. :)  They know they haven't had a lot of scenes, that's where the "mirroring" comes in.  Those characters who aren't Dean and Cas but "represent" them as a mirror for their true feelings which will be made canon by the final episode. (I can't remember them all but the latest ones are the lesbian teenage girls in town)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Those characters who aren't Dean and Cas but "represent" them as a mirror for their true feelings which will be made canon by the final episode

I'm not gonna get into a long discussion of it here, because I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just saying that those who see it as endgame won't ever see it textually Canon and I don't think Dabb has been writing or directing his staff for that to be endgame. I guess to me it doesn't matter about the metas or what they think because the show at best has already given me subtext Destiel and that is fine with me.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Those characters who aren't Dean and Cas but "represent" them as a mirror for their true feelings which will be made canon by the final episode.

Oh dear God. You can't be serious? I know we all see what we want to see, and if this makes them happy, more power to them I guess. But seriously? Write some fanfic. Or just find a show that does give you what you need and leave these characters alone, at least as far as haranguing the actors and (presumably) writers with it all over social media. Dean has always presented, textually and visually, as straight, preferring females. I realize this is a fictional character, but still, if representation of/in real life is what they are after then should they accept 'his' word, unless and until he chooses to say differently? I hope that's how these socially aware and adept folks treat people in their real lives.