“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Lastcall]

12 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

That’s no excuse for slamming one of the lead actors on this show, who works every bit as hard as everyone else.  How do you know Jensen hasn’t talked to Dabb about anything?

These aren’t slams, these are things Jensen and Jared have said at conventions. You can write these things off as jokes but Jared has said he was thinking long term in the early seasons and pretended to be bad at stunts so he wouldn’t have to do them. He has said he likes the scenes where Sam gets choked because they are easy. He has said when Supernatural is over he only wants to act if people just call him up and give him jobs. He jokes about getting to leave early because Jensen gets all the stunts. Jensen on the other hand had the CW formally recognize and thank him for his leadership in season 11, he constantly talks about loving stuntwork. He sought out extra work as a director. So yes, we shouldn’t make it personal and Jared is essential to the show and cast morale but I can’t agree that he has worked as hard as Jensen.

[BlueSapphire]

I have been watching this show and the conventions since season 2 and not once have I ever heard Jared and Jensen say anything about who works harder.  At least the actors have enough class to not stoop that low, thank God.

[Lastcall]

6 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I have been watching this show and the conventions since season 2 and not once have I ever heard Jared and Jensen say anything about who works harder.  At least the actors have enough class to not stoop that low, thank God.

Not saying they do, just what they have said. Some of it from the recent conventions.

[BlueSapphire]

Wanting to direct or do certain things in a script has nothing to do with being hard-working.  Deciding to step away from the camera after the show ends is a personal choice, not an indicator of laziness.  Who knows what these actors are going to do after the show ends?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Is it me or does Sam/Jared seem to be getting a lot more screen time than Dean/Jensen. 

It's almost like Jared signed a full time lead contract and Jensen signed a part time lead contract.

or does it just feel that way because the Sam scenes are so dull this year?

I'm not trying to start a debate on who had more screen time in the past.  I'm strictly talking about this season.

Maybe they have decided to give Sam more screen time now and Dean will have more later? (hopefully?)

[Lastcall]

14 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Wanting to direct or do certain things in a script has nothing to do with being hard-working.  Deciding to step away from the camera after the show ends is a personal choice, not an indicator of laziness.  Who knows what these actors are going to do after the show ends?

It’s on YouTube, Jared has stated what his intentions are at several conventions. So unless you are saying he’s lying, I’m going to take him at his word. Not even calling retirement lazy, I’m retired myself but based on what they say, I don’t agree with your assertion that he works every bit as hard as Jensen.

[raven]

Stop sniping at each other.  No matter what we read in tweets and interviews, we are not privy to personal conversations between the actors and each other or the actors and show runners and none of us are mind readers.  This topic is Bitch vs Jerk, not poster vs poster and no one is going to win an award for posting the most about whomever they prefer.  Don't make general statements about fan groups.   Get back to talking about your interpretation of what is seen on the show, not what you think is going on in someone's mind.

[ILoveReading]

I feel like this whole Leader Sam arc can only end badly for Dean.

It feels like they need to push the "Sam had it worse" narrative once again, so when Sam inevitably collapses or burns out, Dean will be accused of not being there for Sam and not taking some of the burden off his shoulders.   But if Dean does offer to help and do some stuff he'll be accused of not trusting Sam and treating him like a kid. 

There is no good outcome for Dean here.  This further makes me believe Dabb has an agenda against Dean. He makes it impossible for him to succeed.

[BabySpinach]

Several of us seem to agree that the Sam-pimping only ended up accomplishing the exact opposite, making Sam's actual achievements not match up with the hyperbolic Tell of every character kissing up to him. That's obviously bad writing, but then I wonder how they simultaneously made Dean look good (arguably better) in the same episode. He didn't get praised once, but he was competent and empathetic and badass. He was his usual tactful self in the heart-to-heart with Sasha (as he was obviously written to be) and was also the one to jump start the search for Maggie in the first place while Sam was about to drown in his guilt (by the way, I bought more into Dean's natural command with that one "Let's go" line than Sam's entire leadership arc). He was allowed to be smart while figuring out the MOTW and then got to bash its brains in ie. actual SHOWN badassery rather than informed.

Is it because the writer just wasn't trying as hard to push a specific agenda, hence Dean came off looking more authentically cool? Or was Meredith Glynn having a silent struggle with her higher-ups? She's shown in the past that she knows how to write sympathetic, badass Dean without having to Tell us so profusely via in-story mouthpieces. It feels like the whole Sam-pimping thing was just cobbled in because she was told she had to. 

[Myrelle]

Quote

-the Michael possession was a mistake

I disagree.

The mistake was in making LeaderSam the focus of the premiere when the Michael possession sl should have gotten the most focus, IMO. It was what we left off with in the S13 finale and it was very much anticipated, IMO. LeaderSam should have been the B plot AND it should have been connected to the Michael!Dean possession sl, first and foremost, again IMO.

That's giving them separate storylines, while still keeping them connected, IMO; and it would have worked better that way, if they were so hell bent on giving JP the OTT and overt LeaderSam stuff-which I feel was a mistake, in and of itself-it being so OTT and much too overt, that is.

The Nick storyline was their biggest faux pas, IMO.

I'm not as against the AU hunters staying-just not in the bunker. That's the brothers' home, too, now-not just their workplace.

The soap element has got to go. That's their second biggest mistake, IMO-especially where it's connected to Jack and MotherMary and AUBobby-who need to go and stay gone for a very, VERY! long time(if not for good), IMO.

These are just some of my thoughts as to what they should consider as having gone wrong with this season, so far, and what they might still be able to "fix" with the few episodes that they probably have left to write for this season.

Hope it's not too late, though.

Frankly, it feels like it might be to me.

[Myrelle]

38 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Several of us seem to agree that the Sam-pimping only ended up accomplishing the exact opposite, making Sam's actual achievements not match up with the hyperbolic Tell of every character kissing up to him. That's obviously bad writing, but then I wonder how they simultaneously made Dean look good (arguably better) in the same episode. He didn't get praised once, but he was competent and empathetic and badass. He was his usual tactful self in the heart-to-heart with Sasha (as he was obviously written to be) and was also the one to jump start the search for Maggie in the first place while Sam was about to drown in his guilt (by the way, I bought more into Dean's natural command with that one "Let's go" line than Sam's entire leadership arc). He was allowed to be smart while figuring out the MOTW and then got to bash its brains in ie. actual SHOWN badassery rather than informed.

Is it because the writer just wasn't trying as hard to push a specific agenda, hence Dean came off looking more authentically cool? Or was Meredith Glynn having a silent struggle with her higher-ups? She's shown in the past that she knows how to write sympathetic, badass Dean without having to Tell us so profusely via in-story mouthpieces. It feels like the whole Sam-pimping thing was just cobbled in because she was told she had to. 

As regards the bolded part, it IS difficult to try and figure out what's going through their minds and make any sense of it(and in this episode, especially) unless they are eventually heading towards the AU hunters planning to mutiny against their "Chief" for wanting and/or choosing to try and keep Dean alive if Dean is indeed still hosting Michael or even if he's the only vessel that will allow Michael to conquer this world.

Things have gone too well for Sam in the leadership position. He hasn't truly been tested yet and he appears to be struggling anyway. For this storyline to work, in any way, they're going to have to dose him with some disagreement from the rank and file, and even some dissension within the troops for him to genuinely appreciate what a leader(like your brother, dude) has to put up with and work around at times.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

As regards the bolded part, it IS difficult to try and figure out what's going through their minds and make any sense of it(and in this episode, especially) unless they are eventually heading towards the AU hunters planning to mutiny against their "Chief" for wanting and/or choosing to try and keep Dean alive if Dean is indeed still hosting Michael or even if he's the only vessel that will allow Michael to conquer this world.

And even that would be a re-do of the time when Castiel was leading the angels. They were his adoring flunkies (for some reason or other, considering Leviathan!Cas murdered the crap out of angels) who jumped at his command. Then they were all "kill Dean now, oh leader of ours" and he said no. He was persona non grata right away again.

I mean, this one time, I wouldn`t mind them re-doing a storyline. At least the AU!hunters would have a good reason to mutiny if it was about wanting Michael dead. The angels back then were just petty in wanting Dean dead. 

Quote

Things have gone too well for Sam in the leadership position. He hasn't truly been tested yet and he appears to be struggling anyway. 

I think the writers honestly don`t even realize that. It`s the smoothest sailing ever and Sam is burning himself out. Allthewhile everyone mouthpiecing how he is the greatest at it. 

I`m not a leadership person, I hate having to do it at work currently. And people in my department were actually sympathetic and supportive, however they were also demanding "sorry to ask this right now but you`re the boss, make so-and-so happen" or in-fighting with other colleagues. Delegating, I have no problem with. So if that was entire opposition I had to deal with, I would have thought the last half year was pretty cushy. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

I wonder if they didn't mean for Dean to come out the way he did. Because Dean telling Sam that he was responsible for bringing Maggie home.  I wonder if Sam going to the attic and pulling the needles out of Maggies neck was supposed to be saving her and not Dean stopping the monster.  His killing of the Djinn was a lot of overkill, and a repeat of the scene from Ask Jeeves after he killed the shifter. 

Spoiler

Based on spoilers for the next two episodes, where Dean is once again pushed off screen to baby sitting duty.  Maybe they needed to get that oxygen sucker off screen so that Sam can shine in regular hunts too.

[gonzosgirrl]

Wrong thread 

Edited November 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[FlickChick]

Quote

They are too chicken to change up the status quo on the show. Always have been.

This from the ratings' thread. IMO they have changed up the status quo. The problem is that the changes they made aren't working. Dabb has made Sam into something that he is not, and has never been - a leader. But in order to do that, we have a shit ton of AU people in the bunker that we don't care about. The episodes have revolved around Sam's "leadership" and that alone has changed the status quo - and obviously, not in a positive way. You can't tout the great coming story of Dean/Michael and then show a total of less than ten minutes over two episodes and not expect fallout! When Sam wasn't leading, we got his Nickifer and wooby Jack and pep talks. How is that remotely the show anyone expected to see at the beginning of this season?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This from the ratings' thread. IMO they have changed up the status quo. The problem is that the changes they made aren't working. 

Granted, they have made - bad - changes. But, as always, they were too chicken-shit to change "the formula". They could have been brave and kept Michael!Dean for half the Season. They could have kept the brothers separated in real-time for that long. Yes, that would have either nixed standalones or required true creativity in making it happen. 

I often go back to Fringe as an example. When they did the other universe and send one of the lead characters over there, splitting up the team and showing whole episodes in the other verse, I was very against it at first. It was a complete change of the status quo on the show and I resented that in the beginning as I loved the status quo and my safety blanket was gone. Nor did I want episodes with characters I didn`t know or care for. They did that for almost half a Season and once I got dragged there, kicking and screaming, I came to appreciate it. I grew invested in the new characters. Yes, of course, I wanted my team and my show back and it was satisfying when it finally came. But in hindsight, it was a great and bold storyline for me. 

The SPN writers never even try. They just whine and cry how they had to stop storylines early because the fans will bitch about the brothers being separated. So fucking what? It`s not like "the fans" could do anything about it if you made them wait for it for 10 or so episodes. Maybe they would come to appreciate the new storyline even for the time being. And okay maybe not but it`s not like the show has to really watch its ratings anymore. I`m so sick of reading those ball-less excuses in interviews on why once again they had to do whatever they feel their twitter flunkies ask of them because god forbid those got angered.  

[Res]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe they have decided to give Sam more screen time now and Dean will have more later? (hopefully?)

HAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Res said:

HAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

I was laughing as I was typing it myself LOL

[SueB]

@Myrelle , as I said in the other thread, I don't think it's a mistake.  I think it's just one of several things they will examine in light of the ratings.  I love the mystery we are getting. 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The SPN writers never even try. They just whine and cry how they had to stop storylines early because the fans will bitch about the brothers being separated. So fucking what? It`s not like "the fans" could do anything about it if you made them wait for it for 10 or so episodes. Maybe they would come to appreciate the new storyline even for the time being. And okay maybe not but it`s not like the show has to really watch its ratings anymore. I`m so sick of reading those ball-less excuses in interviews on why once again they had to do whatever they feel their twitter flunkies ask of them because god forbid those got angered.  

This. 

A thousand times a thousand times this.

They blew it big time, this time; and it could spell the end of the series this time. 

And frankly, it should, AFAIC.

I'm sick to death of the vocal minority on twitter ruling the writers' room to the degree that they do under Dabb and co.

It's pathetic and cowardly writing, IMO, too.    

Edited November 11, 2018 by Myrelle

[BoxManLocke]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The SPN writers never even try. They just whine and cry how they had to stop storylines early because the fans will bitch about the brothers being separated. So fucking what? It`s not like "the fans" could do anything about it if you made them wait for it for 10 or so episodes. Maybe they would come to appreciate the new storyline even for the time being. And okay maybe not but it`s not like the show has to really watch its ratings anymore. I`m so sick of reading those ball-less excuses in interviews on why once again they had to do whatever they feel their twitter flunkies ask of them because god forbid those got angered.  

 

Great post. How sad is it that after 13 years the showrunners will half-ass everything because they're afraid to shake things up in a meaningful way.

 

Guess what, when you don't commit to anything, the audience ends up feeling it too and tunes out. Try to cater to everybody and you end up with a completely diluted, tasteless product. Who would've thought.

[devlin]

The scene where they bring Maggie home and everyone is hugging her, Dean turns to sam and says you brought her home  , why the hell did sam just agree with him? It was dean that made the first step to go rescue her, sam just sat on his ass feeling sorry for himself. Dean worked out what the monster was and killed it. Here is the perfect opportunity for sam to recognize the fact that he can't do it alone and that he needs the help of others, like his big brother who had been doing this hunting thing way longer than sam has and IMHO is way better at it than sam is. Likewise, the whole Maggie hunting on her own debacle  could have been a great learning experience if sam had taken ownership of his mistake.

Edited November 11, 2018 by devlin
spelling

[devlin]

I feel like dean is the only character who has remained true to kripke’s original idea of gritty blue collar guys fighting monsters. We have sam lecturing a room full of hunter wannabes complete with their own body cameras, there is a soap featuring mobby and hunting being glamourised. I love the fact that dean has remained rough round the edges when the occasion calls for it, he is no nonsense, takes no bullshit, can be brutally violent. He is deliciously self aware and his beautiful tormented suffering reminds us how harsh and cruel the life he leads really is.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, devlin said:

I feel like dean is the only character who has remained true to kripke’s original idea of gritty blue collar guys fighting monsters.

I hate all the gadgets and the spells,and the bunker.  Just blow the thing up with everybody inside (like the roadhouse) and get back on the road.

[ILoveReading]

I don't mind the bunker because I like that Dean has a home.  I just hate all the other people in it.   I don't like the gagets either.  I liked when the show had to come up with out of the box solutions, like how Dean killed Zacheriah and Eve.   I miss that out of the box thinking the show used to do. \

I also don;t like the gagets.  I liked the blue-collar feel and I miss that.

3 hours ago, devlin said:

feel like dean is the only character who has remained true to kripke’s original idea of gritty blue collar guys fighting monsters. We have sam lecturing a room full of hunter wannabes complete with their own body cameras, there is a soap featuring mobby and hunting being glamourised. I love the fact that dean has remained rough round the edges when the occasion calls for it, he is no nonsense, takes no bullshit, can be brutally violent. He is deliciously self aware and his beautiful tormented suffering reminds us how harsh and cruel the life he leads really is.

This is what I love about Dean too.  It's part of the reason why I feel like he no longer fits into this show.  When Dean tries to tell someone what hunting is really like he's accused of being bossy and controlling and people tell others to ignore Dean, or say he doesn't matter or that he's no longer part of the story.  It seems like Dabb buys into this too.

This is why I always felt Dean is the better mentor.  He doesn't sugar coat things.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't find it strange that Sam would have taken on a leadership role with the AU hunters.  Dean was gone from the get go, so there was no time for him to bond with any of them, or for them to set up any sort of hierarchy from the beginning.  These people were soldiers, but they weren't monster hunters, so someone had to show them the ropes and try to organize them into some sort of team.  Sam is the logical choice for that, since he was the only one available at the time.  It's not a role that comes naturally to him, so he's struggling a bit.  I'm going to assume there is something coming up down the road to explain why he didn't lean more on Mary, Bobby and Ketch, or why he doesn't ask for help from Dean now that he's back.  I don't buy that it's just the writers way of showing that Sam is wonderful and Dean sucks, though, so we'll have to see where it goes.  

Dean is now back, and trying to work through his issues after Michael's possession, and doesn't seem to have any interest in mentoring anyone at the moment.  So far, we've seen very little of what Dean/Michael did that has left Dean feeling so guilty.  Again, I'm going to assume there's more of that story to tell.  

If we don't get more of the back story of Dean/Michael, and if Sam continues to burn himself out as "chief" with no explanation, then yes, the season will be an epic fail, since the writers will have dropped the main storyline and left us hanging.  I hope they prove themselves better than that.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

don't find it strange that Sam would have taken on a leadership role with the AU hunters.  Dean was gone from the get go, so there was no time for him to bond with any of them, or for them to set up any sort of hierarchy from the beginning. 

Dean wasn't gone from the get go. He had an active role in getting the people over from the AU back when AU Bobby still gave a shit about the people he promised to go back and save. He was there having a drink with all of them.

Then some kind of time jump happened in the finale of s13 wherein it was said that the AU people were supposedly settling into town including AU Bobby and he was making googly eyes at Mary. The clerk at the Gas N sip who Jack wrongly accused of murdering Maggie wasn't a hunter and Maggie wasn't hunting either.  And there was no indication that I recall that any were interested in trying to become hunters or had been training to do so. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

The odd thing is that in the s14 premiere, it's only been 3 weeks since Dean was possessed and during that time Sam had setup the bunker to be Hunter School and, supposedly was looking for Dean. AU Bobby was already their leader and he was already a soldier so any of the fighting skills should already have been there with those people. Why would they stop following AU Bobby and decide to follow Professor/Hunter Teacher/General Sam over someone they knew? None of it makes any sense other than Dabb actively trying to pimp Sam.

It didn't and doesn't make sense for any of the Au people to really want to do anything other than hunt Angels which is what they did over in their world.  would what have been a really interesting way to go is to have the Au people want to hunt all the angels because they were their enemies and have them reject Sam's idea altogether. Have them refuse to work with Cas who looks like AU Cas. And have Michael in Dean as enemy #1. 

Who other than Maggie knows  that it was an archangel who killed Maggie and and archangel who saved her?  Why wasn't not Bobby on the track down Michael train. Dabb could have had Sam and not Bobby at odds over this and have them all refuse.

I digress. So what happened IMO and why it bothered Dean is that his home was over run whilst he was gone. Sam didn't discuss it with Dean,obviously or if he did Dean nixed it because it wasn't a thing until Dean was off being kidnapped. And it wasn't like it was all hands on deck for Michael!Dean and only Michael!Dean.

They could have tied all of it to Dean thus fulfilling the brothers attachment disorder whilst having them separate. And show us Dean fighting to get rid of Michael with him thinking about Sam and Cas tring to save him.

So no I don't find any logic in that SL at all and none that puts Sam as the bestest leader ever. YMMV.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then some kind of time jump happened in the finale of s13 wherein it was said that the AU people were supposedly settling into town including AU Bobby and he was making googly eyes at Mary. The clerk at the Gas N sip who Jack wrongly accused of murdering Maggie wasn't a hunter and Maggie wasn't hunting either.  And there was no indication that I recall that any were interested in trying to become hunters or had been training to do so. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

You’re not forgetting anything; that’s basically exactly what happened! 

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

dropped the main storyline

This seems to be the biggest issue with season 14 so far.  There are two many side stories and none of them particularly interesting or making much sense.  Whereas the main storyline, Michael, is almost ignored.  And I realize Cas and Jack cannot be in every episode.  But where are they?  Has anyone even mentioned them?

It's all so disjointed now.  It's like that children's' game we used to play where one writes a line of a story and folds the paper and passes along to the next who writes another line of the story.  At the end we read the story in fits of laughter because it made no sense.  I think that's what they're doing in the writers' room.

[ILoveReading]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then some kind of time jump happened in the finale of s13 wherein it was said that the AU people were supposedly settling into town including AU Bobby and he was making googly eyes at Mary. The clerk at the Gas N sip who Jack wrongly accused of murdering Maggie wasn't a hunter and Maggie wasn't hunting either.  And there was no indication that I recall that any were interested in trying to become hunters or had been training to do so. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

This is how I remember it too.  Its a forced situation.  Dabb's been trying to make Sam the leader for two years.  But its so out of left field because I can't recall one scene of Sam ever wishing to be a leader or some kind of mentor to other hunters.  Other than one scene where Dabb decided it was time for Sam to have an epiphany.  Sam joined the Men of Letters because he saw it as a way out of hunting, not as a way to tie him to it further. 

As others have said Bobby was their leader and Mary was going to abandon her sons because "her people need her"  So I'm thinking Mary used that as an excuse she wanted to stay and make goo goo eyes a Bobby.

Also these people just got out of a war they didn't' ask for.  Would all 30 really want to just jump right back in?  If they want to hunt, Sam should teach them to find cases and do research. These people are all soldiers.  We were told Monsters existed in there world  and they were more savage.  They already should have the basics. They have the survival skills.   There was a scene in 5.02 where Dean was mistaken for a solider so hunters and soldiers share a lot of traits.  So they don't need the hand holding that the show is trying to sell.

Why are they suddenly loyal to Sam.  Its his fault Michael even got into their world in the first place becuase of his deicision to leave Lucifer behind.   Why wouldn't they want Michael dead.  Bobby lost his son.  If anyone would want Michael dead it should be him, and im sure others lost loved ones.  So their loyalty to Sam makes no sense.  They should be loyal to Bobby and stopping Michael.  Not Dean and Sam.   They skipped that critical 3 week period so they didn't have to deal with the important stuff.  its bad showing running and bad story telling and that is why everything just feels so forced an inorganic.

The poor wounded overworked baby bird routine their selling is not working either becuase its so unnesscearly and its making it look like everyone is either incompetent or Sam doesn't trust them. 

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's not a role that comes naturally to him, so he's struggling a bit

But this is not how the writers are acting.   I don't think they realized the tell didn't match the show.  The writers have been saying that Sam is a natural born leader.  They even put these words in Mary's mouth.    They're acting like Team Free Will was leaderless all along so thank God, along came Sam.

The amount of pimping and propping was out of control.  So I don't think authorial intent was to show Sam was struggling. 

Honestly, I believe the only reason the Michael story was green lit because Dabb saw it as an opportunity to finally make the leader Sam thing work.  Get rid of Dean to give Sam "breathing room"  There was a reason that the main focus of the premier and why nothing has changed since Dean came back.  There is room for Dean in this story and room for the show to acknowledge Dean's past leadership.  But Dabb doesnt' see Dean that way.  He's just the "funny guy"

Edited November 11, 2018 by ILoveReading

[juppschmitz]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Honestly, I believe the only reason the Michael story was green lit because Dabb saw it as an opportunity to finally make the leader Sam thing work.

I think the only reason was to keep the Dean girls interested. He's going to try and make leader Sam happen, no matter what. He tried with the wiping out of the BMoL. He's trying now, and he's never going to stop. And I just want to tell him

 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If we don't get more of the back story of Dean/Michael, and if Sam continues to burn himself out as "chief" with no explanation, then yes, the season will be an epic fail, since the writers will have dropped the main storyline and left us hanging.  I hope they prove themselves better than that.

Don`t challenge the show like that. They will only have Mark Pellegrino coming to your house and saying "hold my beer".  :-P

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is how I remember it too.  Its a forced situation.  Dabb's been trying to make Sam the leader for two years.  But its so out of left field because I can't recall one scene of Sam ever wishing to be a leader or some kind of mentor to other hunters.  Other than one scene where Dabb decided it was time for Sam to have an epiphany.  Sam joined the Men of Letters because he saw it as a way out of hunting, not as a way to tie him to it further. 

As others have said Bobby was their leader and Mary was going to abandon her sons because "her people need her"  So I'm thinking Mary used that as an excuse she wanted to stay and make goo goo eyes a Bobby.

Also these people just got out of a war they didn't' ask for.  Would all 30 really want to just jump right back in?  If they want to hunt, Sam should teach them to find cases and do research. These people are all soldiers.  We were told Monsters existed in there world  and they were more savage.  They already should have the basics. They have the survival skills.   There was a scene in 5.02 where Dean was mistaken for a solider so hunters and soldiers share a lot of traits.  So they don't need the hand holding that the show is trying to sell.

Why are they suddenly loyal to Sam.  Its his fault Michael even got into their world in the first place becuase of his deicision to leave Lucifer behind.   Why wouldn't they want Michael dead.  Bobby lost his son.  If anyone would want Michael dead it should be him, and im sure others lost loved ones.  So their loyalty to Sam makes no sense.  They should be loyal to Bobby and stopping Michael.  Not Dean and Sam.   They skipped that critical 3 week period so they didn't have to deal with the important stuff.  its bad showing running and bad story telling and that is why everything just feels so forced an inorganic.

The poor wounded overworked baby bird routine their selling is not working either becuase its so unnesscearly and its making it look like everyone is either incompetent or Sam doesn't trust them. 

But this is not how the writers are acting.   I don't think they realized the tell didn't match the show.  The writers have been saying that Sam is a natural born leader.  They even put these words in Mary's mouth.    They're acting like Team Free Will was leaderless all along so thank God, along came Sam.

The amount of pimping and propping was out of control.  So I don't think authorial intent was to show Sam was struggling. 

Honestly, I believe the only reason the Michael story was green lit because Dabb saw it as an opportunity to finally make the leader Sam thing work.  Get rid of Dean to give Sam "breathing room"  There was a reason that the main focus of the premier and why nothing has changed since Dean came back.  There is room for Dean in this story and room for the show to acknowledge Dean's past leadership.  But Dabb doesnt' see Dean that way.  He's just the "funny guy"

IMO, they want us to think Sam is struggling because every now and then Sam/Jared makes a face of 'I don't know if I'm doing a good job".  They have Sam say he doubts himself just to set up someone else telling him he's doing a good job.  So to me either Sam is right and everyone else is wrong or Sam is wrong and everyone else is right.  Or that is what is the "struggle".  That Sam says he sucks and everyone says he doesnt.  Boom  a leader is born.  Which is totally different than being a born leader or having earned it over years and years of experience.  

When Sam fans even are like...this doesnt fit Sam...something has gone very worng.

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't gone from the get go. He had an active role in getting the people over from the AU back when AU Bobby still gave a shit about the people he promised to go back and save. He was there having a drink with all of them.

Yes, I know he was an integral part of the rescue of the AU people.  My point was that they were all sort of settling in, exploring their new world a bit, thinking Lucifer was dead and Michael was trapped in the AU.  Once they both came back, the shit hit the fan, and Sam was left with a bunch of untrained soldiers to rally into a team to help look for Dean/Michael.  It seems like a pretty natural  progression of events to me.  Now that Dean is back, we'll see whether Sam continues to burn himself out being a one-man training team, or whether Dean and others join in.  The AU people certainly have a good skill set to make them relatively easy to train as hunters.  But if Sam has been acting as trainer, dispatcher and hunter in Dean's absence, that's quite a big job.  I remember Bobby not sleeping much back  in the day just working the hunter network.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I remember Bobby not sleeping much back  in the day just working the hunter network.

Ad, Bobby had a business to run, too.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Sam has been acting as trainer, dispatcher and hunter in Dean's absence, that's quite a big job.  I remember Bobby not sleeping much back  in the day just working the hunter network.

But it didn't HAVE to be that way is one of the main failures here.

Back in OG Bobby days the hunters were way more independent entities and sought out Bobby for help and there wasnt really anyone else. But Sam had super badass Mary and Soldier Leader AU Bobby right there to help him and he either didn't get their help or he rejected it. It's a phony set up and utterly inorganic and IMO poor story telling.

[Aeryn13]

The "tell" works on enough fans. I`ve seen so many say what a great natural leader Sam is. And that Dean never has been a leader or shown skill sets for it. And this is the case because no matter what they did in the previous 13 Seasons, they never explicitely tackled the question of leadership, they never pinned it down in dialogue, they never had a little onscreen hunter unit to be led. They have done so in one episode in Season 12 - for Sam. They are doing so now, also for Sam. 

They could show him being the suckiest leader ever but if they have his adoring flunkies around him and have all the characters tell him how great he is, more people than not will take away that Sam is the greatest leader the world has ever seen. And because Dean is not explicitely looped into that story or touted as a leader or get any acknowledgment, he doesn`t count. 

You have some wiggle room before you explicitely handle that as a storyline but not after. People don`t consider Dean a leader or fit for leadership now because that is what the show is telling them in the first ever storyline about leadership. This is writing 101. Even the SPN folks know this. 

In comparism to that whatever Dean did or didn`t do in the years before is of no consequence. It was easy to take from Dean because the show never even said he had it in the first place. And Dabb will never, ever, ever give the character something back.  

[ahrtee]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I remember Bobby not sleeping much back  in the day just working the hunter network.

Bobby never ran the hunter network.  He answered the phone, giving advice and validating IDs if necessary.  He didn't search out jobs, assign hunters, or even research anything unless he was specifically asked.  And not consistently, either, since I remember him saying Rufus had asked him to man the phones one weekend.  The only time we saw him being inconvenienced by the "hunter network" was Weekend at Bobby's, when he couldn't eat the neighbor's cobbler without getting interrupted.

He ran a junk yard, supported other hunters when they came to him for assistance, and did his own hunts.  That's not the same thing.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Bobby never ran the hunter network.  He answered the phone, giving advice and validating IDs if necessary.  He didn't search out jobs, assign hunters, or even research anything unless he was specifically asked.  And not consistently, either, since I remember him saying Rufus had asked him to man the phones one weekend.  The only time we saw him being inconvenienced by the "hunter network" was Weekend at Bobby's, when he couldn't eat the neighbor's cobbler without getting interrupted.

He ran a junk yard, supported other hunters when they came to him for assistance, and did his own hunts.  That's not the same thing.

This is exactly right. Hunters never needed to check in with him before and after hunts either and they made out just fine.

[catrox14]

And another thing. The check-in system is another false sense of security. These noobs should never hunt alone. If a solo hunter is captured, the monster/demon/enemy simply needs to send a false message saying they are safe which just extends the time a hunter is left captured and alone.

Edited November 11, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I think Bobby and Mary did take somewhat of a leadership role among all of the AU people, but Sam was the default "Chief".  After all, he is Sam of Sam and Dean, hunters extraordinaire, so it seems pretty natural to me that they would all look to him to lead them.  We've been saying these guys are supposed to be legendary, so why would Sam sit back and let someone else run the show?  

 It does seem funny to me that I seem to be defending Sam all the time, when Dean is my absolute favorite character.  But I just don't see the horrible one-sidedness that many here seem to see.  I see a show that tries to make everyone happy by giving both main characters something interesting to do.  It may not always work, but they do try.  I don't know that I've ever felt cheated as a Dean fan, except maybe for Demon Dean.  I'd have liked a few more episodes of that.  But for a show that has two main leads, and in recent years, an almost ensemble cast, I think my guy gets to see plenty of the action. 

My bitch is that I want better writing all the way around, for all of the characters.  I want them to tell interesting stories.  

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Bobby and Mary did take somewhat of a leadership role among all of the AU people, but Sam was the default "Chief".  After all, he is Sam of Sam and Dean, hunters extraordinaire, so it seems pretty natural to me that they would all look to him to lead them.  We've been saying these guys are supposed to be legendary, so why would Sam sit back and let someone else run the show?  

Sam and Dean are only legendary in our world.  In the AU they didn't exist at all, so the AU people should have no preconceptions (or awe) of them.  So if Sam wants to take over as Chief, that's his idea.  The others should be sitting there going "who the hell is this guy and why is he giving us orders?"  

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I see a show that tries to make everyone happy by giving both main characters something interesting to do

I don't think it's possible to make everyone happy, and trying to do that is what causes too many problems.  But my issue is that they haven't given one of the main characters anything to do, interesting or not**.  

**ETA:  And are giving some "interesting" storylines to peripheral characters no one cares about or are actively disliked.

Edited November 11, 2018 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think it's possible to make everyone happy, and trying to do that is what causes too many problems.  But my issue is that they haven't given one of the main characters anything to do, interesting or not.  

I agree. We're already 5 episodes in and I've been very disappointed so far. I keep tuning in out of hope that things will get better in terms of Dean's SL but I'm not holding my breath.

[devlin]

I couldn’t care less if sam wants  to be leader of the au bunch. If he wants to be in control and called chief, all the power to him. It’s the OTT pimping of sam being the best leader ever and that he was born to lead. It’s the poor sam trope having to do everything himself, working his fingers to the bone, with no time to eat or sleep. It’s martyr sam saying he will only sleep 2 hours instead of 3 coz that extra hour means that he himself will be able to kill Michael. It’s the fact that if sam makes a mistake it’s just brushed over to ensure his feelings aren’t hurt.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

After all, he is Sam of Sam and Dean, hunters extraordinaire, so it seems pretty natural to me that they would all look to him to lead them.  We've been saying these guys are supposed to be legendary, so why would Sam sit back and let someone else run the show?  

Only amongst this world's hunters and even those guys had to be speechified to directly by Sam to get them to join him. The current crop of noobs didn't know Sam from a hole in the ground.  I suppose there could be the argument that Sam saved them from their hell but Bobby is the one that allowed them to go.  Other than that what does Sam have that makes him so followable and especially in the 3 weeks that Dean was gone.  It just doesn't make any sense.

[devlin]

I loved how when bobby was having a go at sam, dean’s demeanour instantly changed to hostility towards bobby. (please take note sam, this is how you should behave when someone insults your brother)

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I loved how when bobby was having a go at sam, dean’s demeanour instantly changed to hostility towards bobby. (please take note sam, this is how you should behave when someone insults your brother)

Dean takes offense at any little thing that is said or done to his baby brother.  He's done it all of his life and it's second nature to him.  It's not second nature to Sam to jump in to defend Dean in the same way.  It's not that Sam wouldn't defend Dean, or that he's not there for him, they're just different people with different perspectives on their relationship.  I'm sure Sam probably balks frequently at how often Dean has come to his defense in the past, as if Sam isn't capable of fighting his own battles.  To me this is normal big brother, little brother stuff, only times 10,000 due to the lives they lead.  

I really wish the writing were better so we could actually discuss where the plot might be going, or what we think might be happening.  It sucks that all there is to talk about now is who's getting screwed by the writers.

[devlin]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean takes offense at any little thing that is said or done to his baby brother.  He's done it all of his life and it's second nature to him.  It's not second nature to Sam to jump in to defend Dean in the same way.  It's not that Sam wouldn't defend Dean, or that he's not there for him, they're just different people with different perspectives on their relationship.  I'm sure Sam probably balks frequently at how often Dean has come to his defense in the past, as if Sam isn't capable of fighting his own battles.  To me this is normal big brother, little brother stuff, only times 10,000 due to the lives they lead.  

I really wish the writing were better so we could actually discuss where the plot might be going, or what we think might be happening.  It sucks that all there is to talk about now is who's getting screwed by the writers.

I am not expecting sam to leap to dean's defense but just once I would like to his facial expression reflect his distaste for the way dean is being treated but then again that could be an actor thing and for all I know that's what Jared is trying to do and it is coming across poorly. Jensen OTOH is a master at micro expressions crossing his face and has the ability to tell an entire story without words.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

w often Dean has come to his defense in the past, as if Sam isn't capable of fighting his own battles.  To me this is normal big brother, little brother stuff, only times 10,000 due to the lives they lead.  

IMO, it has nothing to do with Dean thinking Sam can't defend himself. It's that Dean actually takes offense when someone insults Sam.  Dean will still defend Sam to someone else more often than not, even if he knows Sam might be wrong.

And Sam, IMO, takes no offense on Dean's behalf because Sam isn't all that sensitive when it comes to Dean and other people.  And I also think that Sam often agrees with the barbs slung Dean's way so he doesn't say anything. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And Sam, IMO, takes no offense on Dean's behalf because Sam isn't all that sensitive when it comes to Dean and other people.  And I also think that Sam often agrees with the barbs slung Dean's way so he doesn't say anything. 

I disagree. I just think they are different people and show things differently. One way doesn't have to be the "right way" while the other is the "wrong way." They are just different. In my opinion anyway.