“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

Well, at least he contributed to s15?  Fingers crossed, its a good thing?

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, fuck a duck.  Yockey was the best writer on the staff who IMO treated most of the characters with an even hand.  I am afraid.  I am very afraid.

Well, let's face it, he deserved so much better than writing with the current crew and IMO being told what/how to write by Dabb. So, so much better. I'm really sad that he is leaving, though.

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

OK, I'm just going to say it and I know there will be many people who will disagree with me. I am disappointed that Jared and Jensen didn't take on Producer credits so as to have some control over the finale of this show. This show that set the record for a genre series' seasons on TV. This show that has been their life blood and has set them up in a very comfortable life. And yes I know they have young children - so do many other people who work long, long hours to support their families and give those families a secure future. If they wanted more time with their families - even with extra hours as producers - then they could have dropped/lessened the myriad conventions they attend during the shooting season. With Dabb in control, dropping in for a few hours with this substandard writing crew isn't going to cut it. They seem to care about the fans; they seem to care about the characters they play; so why the hell wouldn't they go all-out for one last season knowing what they're up against with this crew? I'm sorry, I'm really disappointed that they didn't step up; I really am.

Do we know for sure they didn't?  

[Casseiopeia]

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

I like Jack(so i'm personally glad) and he seems to be popular overall but not on here of course--lol!   

Edited out the spoiler-ish stuff.

The problem with Jack is that they never had the guts to go all in with the character. He could have been interesting if he'd actually been a big bad.

His woobification (too often at the expense of Dean's character) is ridiculous. It's poor writing, poor storytelling, and such obvious fan service that there was no way this viewer was ever going to warm to him. Like Castiel, they made him too powerful, and then didn't know what to do about that, so first they removed him from the story altogether (the AU), then they gave him the consumption and dire consequences (death/madness) if he used his power, then they gave him Dean's story line. And then they had him murder the boys' mother and not only not face any real repercussions, but make Dean seem like a heartless bully for wanting to take him out. Even then, they couldn't have it be a united Winchester thing - they had to have Sam be all 'Dean made me do it'. For me, Jack just Dabb's self-insertion into the story - showing those silly actors Winchesters where the real power lies.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The problem with Jack is that they never had the guts to go all in with the character. He could have been interesting if he'd actually been a big bad.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.  It could have even been interesting if it had been a slow build to bad.  Maybe not as slow as the beginning of S13 to the end of S14.  But, even at that point, It's all, oh he's not really bad, he just doesn't know right from wrong.  We have to save him. Aargh. Sam and Dean have killed a lot more for a lot less without blinking an eye.

I wouldn't even mind a debate about it between Sam and Dean if it weren't so one-sided.  They spent 22/23 years hunting down the first thing that killed their mother.  But, the next time their mom gets killed, it's all good a few days later?  I think not.  If they were going to go this route they should have had Mary's death been more accidental.  Like maybe had her get in the way between Jack and Nick.  But, otherwise, this is just pure ridiculousness.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, even at that point, It's all, oh he's not really bad, he just doesn't know right from wrong.

And then to add insult to injury, he 'apologized' not because he was sorry she was dead, but because Sam and Dean were 'mad' at him. And they STILL made it okay. FFS.

[Aeryn13]

It's like longterm fans are Moses returning from the top of the mountain, only to find the writers, drunkenly dancing around a golden Jack. WTH?

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's like longterm fans are Moses returning from the top of the mountain, only to find the writers, drunkenly dancing around a golden Jack. WTH?

And IMO, Jack has been given the most attention in the last two years, and for what? To please the tween twitter crowd? Hell, they'll be gone on to the next shiny new thing five seconds after the final curtain. And the rest of us? The fans that have been here for a long, long time; who get involved in the stories and characters - well, we just get a poorly written series that can't remember its own canon from one episode to the next. We get our Winchester protagonists given scraps from the overloaded Jack table and a showrunner who has absolutely, positively no business running this show. I really have extremely low expectations about the coming final season giving us the kind of story that we long-time fans deserve. 

[Katy M]

Here's what I would have done with Jack (if I had created him at all):

he could be all woobified at first. Sam and Dean have their argument with Sam saying he could be good and Dean not buying it.   But, it's all an act (the woobification, not the argument If at all possible I would like to reverse the argument, but I don't think I could do it and keep it in character.  Sam's always wrong about these things, so it would probably be a huge clue to the audience that Jack is indeed evil).  He can't figure out how to fully use his powers, but he wants to reopen the rift to free his father (Lucifer).   I might even have Dean come around shortly before it's revealed that Jack is indeed evil.  Then, we'd have another twist where Jack didn't want to free Lucifer because he loves his daddy. In order for him to get his full Nephilim power, he needs Lucifer's grace.  So, he kills him and takes it and becomes the ultimate big bad.  I would actually wait until this point (I figure we take it to the halfway point to get to the other realm, and another few episodes for the Lucifer doublecross), to resurrect Cas, and then Team FreeWill can figure out some way to kill Jack.  

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

With 4 people on the bag for SDCC, we have confirmation of Alex as a regular.   With Jack ‘in the car’ on the whiteboard, I think it’s clear TFW 2.0 is back in business. How we get from ‘Moriah’ to TFW 2.0 is likely the basis of EP 15.1-15.3.

And with Jack, on his knee and ready to be killed, and Dean refusing to do so, we have the basis of recovery.   Does he come back from the Empty soulless or re-souled because ‘writer’s lie’ and Chuck lied about him not getting a soul?   How much power does he have?  Does he make a deal with Billie and the Empty to protect the universe and not let Chuck throw this one away?  Many options.   But that last coda, combined with his willingness to be killed, leaves a path back to TFW 2.0 IMO.  

And that bolded part, right there, is my problem with Jack and his whole storyline.  They won't commit to anything with him.  They can't decide if he's good, bad, or something in between.  He's either (a) a baby with uncontrolled power and doesn't know how to use it or even understand the implications (thus accidentally killing Mary and not feeling guilty about it) or (b) he's wallowing in guilt over hurting some random stranger or *not* being able to save other random strangers, or (c) he has no soul and therefore is a psychopath who has no feelings, or (d) he has too many feelings and so is trying to do the Right Thing (but doesn't know how to do it....see (a) above).  Or maybe (e) he's the logical angel one who decides to do whatever is necessary with no emotional backlash (as in, killing Dean/Michael or the snake.)   Or (f) he's the vengeful, vindictive weapon of destruction who lashes out in anger at anyone who challenges him.  He's done bad things with good intentions, bad things with bad intentions, been led astray by bad companions and (supposedly) been taught right from wrong by pretty much every damn hero on the show, and he still doesn't know what to do, how to do it or how to feel about it.

I have no sense at all of who Jack is (much less is supposed to be) except the feeling that I'm supposed to like the cute little blonde boy who looks like a puppy.  And that, of course, makes me feel the exact opposite.  

The writers don't get the concept that a character being "complicated" doesn't mean that they have multiple personality disorder.   Conflicts come from having to fight against their basic character, and it doesn't work if we don't know what the character is.  

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

And that bolded part, right there, is my problem with Jack and his whole storyline.  They won't commit to anything with him.  They can't decide if he's good, bad, or something in between.  He's either (a) a baby with uncontrolled power and doesn't know how to use it or even understand the implications (thus accidentally killing Mary and not feeling guilty about it) or (b) he's wallowing in guilt over hurting some random stranger or *not* being able to save other random strangers, or (c) he has no soul and therefore is a psychopath who has no feelings, or (d) he has too many feelings and so is trying to do the Right Thing (but doesn't know how to do it....see (a) above).  Or maybe (e) he's the logical angel one who decides to do whatever is necessary with no emotional backlash (as in, killing Dean/Michael or the snake.)   Or (f) he's the vengeful, vindictive weapon of destruction who lashes out in anger at anyone who challenges him.  He's done bad things with good intentions, bad things with bad intentions, been led astray by bad companions and (supposedly) been taught right from wrong by pretty much every damn hero on the show, and he still doesn't know what to do, how to do it or how to feel about it.

I have no sense at all of who Jack is (much less is supposed to be) except the feeling that I'm supposed to like the cute little blonde boy who looks like a puppy.  And that, of course, makes me feel the exact opposite.  

The writers don't get the concept that a character being "complicated" doesn't mean that they have multiple personality disorder.   Conflicts come from having to fight against their basic character, and it doesn't work if we don't know what the character is.  

Great post @ahrtee! You hit the nail on the head with every word.

[ILoveReading]

Production starts July 18th, just before comic con. If Jensen is directing that means he probably won't be there for the the Friday night interviews, and photoshoots. 

Which sucks because its the last comic con.  I cant help but wonder if this is deliberate. 

[Myrelle]

So I'm having a hard time remembering where Singer was called out on killing Charlie and where Carver put his foot in his mouth by "joking" that Dean was a "boring" character because the writers always wrote him as just another version of himself.

Both of those things happened at Comic Con, didn't they?

I'd give anything for the question of what happened with Jensen finally being allowed to play another character for more than a hot minute to be posed to this bunch that they have up there this year, but somehow I highly doubt that it will even be brought up.

Oh, and just for the record, I  can hardly wait to see and hear Dabb top his "breathing room" comments that we got last year concerning the MichaelDean storyline at the round table interviews. 

Or about BL's infatuation with Lucifer  again and some more.

Ugh. 

I have a feeling that I'm going to be wishing that they had just ripped the band aid off and ended it after 14, after all. 🙄

Edited July 8, 2019 by Myrelle
Additions

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So I'm having a hard time remembering where Singer was called out on killing Charlie and where Carver put his foot in his mouth by "joking" that Dean was a "boring" character because the writers always wrote him as just another version of himself.

Both of those things happened at Comic Con, didn't they?

I'd give anything for the question of what happened with Jensen finally being allowed to play another character for more than a hot minute to be posed to this bunch that they have up there this year, but somehow I highly doubt that it will even be brought up.

I believe it was s11 comic con, after Charlies death that he was called out for it.  The question was something like why woman are killed to further men's pain was the decision made to kill Charlie and dump her in a bathtub. 

I dont' remember the exact comic con where Carver called Dean boring but for some reason I want to say 9 when he was gushing about the Gadreel story line .

I would love it if someone asked that question but instead will probably get Jack related stuff.  He's the only one that matter to the writers now.   Dean doesn't even register.  And they dont' have any incentive to bother because there is no contract negociations to write for Dean to entice Jensen to stay.

[Jonesy]

On 7/5/2019 at 7:28 PM, ILoveReading said:

Production starts July 18th, just before comic con. If Jensen is directing that means he probably won't be there for the the Friday night interviews, and photoshoots. 

Which sucks because its the last comic con.  I cant help but wonder if this is deliberate. 

Have to disagree--don't think there is a conspiracy against Jensen, he is widely liked by all in SPN including tptb.  And don't think it's all about Jack now...he clearly fourth behind the J's and Misha--not even close imo.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Jakes said:

Have to disagree--don't think there is a conspiracy against Jensen, he is widely liked by all in SPN including tptb.  And don't think it's all about Jack now...he clearly fourth behind the J's and Misha--not even close imo.

Everything revolved around Jack last season.  So it doesn't matter where he was on the call sheet.   He's the writers priority.

If it was still about the brothers I don't think the show would be ending.  They brothers were totally irrelevant last season.

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Everything revolved around Jack last season.  So it doesn't matter where he was on the call sheet.   He's the writers priority.

If it was still about the brothers I don't think the show would be ending.  They brothers were totally irrelevant last season.

Don't see it that way at all--everyone including Jack revolved around how they effect the brothers...the same as every year.   The show is ending imo because the J's went 15 years...only 10 other live action shows have lasted as long  in history.  Even if the show had no Jack or even no Misha--15 years is just a super long time and it was time for them to move on after a a decade and a half.  That is a LONG time.  If they didn't like things they would have dropped the show a long time ago.   And the J's have both enthused about the 14th season ending and set up for 15.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by Jakes

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Everything revolved around Jack last season.  So it doesn't matter where he was on the call sheet.   He's the writers priority

Yeah, Jack was clearly the No.1 priority, character-wise, of the writing last season to me, too.

And IA with the rest of your post, too, for the most part.

The brothers(and Cas)were all in predominantly supportive roles to Jack-with Dean being the only voice to ever question his heroism and woobiness, and even he was brought to heel, in the end. 

Ugh.

I hate even thinking about s14, tbh.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Myrelle
Additions

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I dont' remember the exact comic con where Carver called Dean boring but for some reason I want to say 9 when he was gushing about the Gadreel story line

I thought Carver was being cagey /snarky about Dean so he wouldnt give up the big spoiler of Demon Dean since I think he intended to always go with Demon Dean in s9.  IMO, Carver gave Dean the most interesting meta plot/mytharc he'd had since s4 so I think was being sarcastic given what I thought was a pretty meaty Dean mytharc in s9 and potentially s10. 

I do wonder when TPTB say things like that, and say the boys have to be together, which prematurely truncates a better narrative structure by keeping them apart a bit longer than was done in both s10 and s14. Is it their choice, or are they pushed by the network to put them  back together after no more than 3 eps apart.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do wonder when TPTB say things like that, and say the boys have to be together, which prematurely truncates a better narrative structure by keeping them apart a bit longer than was done in both s10 and s14. Is it their choice, or are they pushed by the network to put them

I honestly think it's all on the showrunners and no one else. 

And I don't think Carver planned on Demon Dean until after they saw the first couple of episodes of Gadreel in Sam.

[ILoveReading]

30 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Don't see it that way at all--everyone including Jack revolved around how they effect the brothers...the same as every year.   The show is ending imo because the J's went 15 years...only 10 other live action shows have lasted as long  in history.  Even if the show had no Jack or even no Misha--15 years is just a super long time and it was time for them to move on after a a decade and a half.  That is a LONG time.  If they didn't like things they would have dropped the show a long time ago.   And the J's have both enthused about the 14th season ending and set up for 15.  

I still remember the start of the season.  How Jensen asked Dabb for help because he was stuggling to find the voice of the character.  Dabb blew him off.  There is no other way to describe it or spin it, IMO.  Even Jensen remarked.  "I'm an island unto myself."  That is not the way you treat someone you respect.   I can't go with "Dabb trusts him' becasue Jensen asked for help.   To make matters worse he allegedly had the time and inclination to take Jared out to dinner to discuss the leadership role. 

If Dabb had any intention of the Michael story line being anything like he talked about he woudn't have gave Jensen direction becuase he would have needed to make sure Jensen stirred the character in that direction.

From that point on they refused to let the Michael story build momenteum because they kept spoiling it.  "Nope Michael is not in Dean."  Deans' wonky vision went nowhere and was never mentioned by Dean because we had to go into another episode about Jack.  Even episode 9 Michael was after Jack. 

Everything that happened in episode 10 was dropped and handed of too....Jack.

In the first two episodes, I think I counted 5 or 6 your so special pep talks for Jack.  Dean, whose a lead, got a throw away line from Jody, a half hearted, its not your fault. 

Then from ep 14 on it was "oh no will Jack go pale beige for 30 seconds. "  Because given how they wrote the character the previous 2 seasons.  They loved woobie Jack to much to ever really tarnish him.   Dean was clearly made the bad guy in the whole lock Jack up thing because they had Sam lecture Dean the following episode and act like Dean forced him somehow.

Dean was also completely ignored in the aftermath of his own story.  Episode 15 talked about Sam, Jack, Cas and even Rowena

Again, IMO, not a way you treat someone you respect.  If that is how Dabb and Co. do it I would really hate to see how they treated someone they didn't respect.

We can agree to disagree.

Edited July 8, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Don't see it that way at all--everyone including Jack revolved around how they effect the brothers...the same as every year.   The show is ending imo because the J's went 15 years...only 10 other live action shows have lasted as long  in history.  Even if the show had no Jack or even no Misha--15 years is just a super long time and it was time for them to move on after a a decade and a half.  That is a LONG time.  If they didn't like things they would have dropped the show a long time ago.   And the J's have both enthused about the 14th season ending and set up for 15.  

Jensen ended S14 super excited about his story line and the show (the ridiculous marionette fight notwithstanding). As late as the 300th party they were still talking about how the show could go on indefinitely, as long as the writing/story was there. From episode 1 of season 14, the story screwed over Jensen/Dean (beginning with cutting the scenes we know were filmed, expanding on Michael's motives and giving depth to the character), made General Sam a joke, and propelled Jack into the 'lead' character that everything and everyone revolved around, eventually handing Jensen/Dean's entire story (one that was years in the making) over to Jack. And then suddenly they announce the end. Nobody will ever convince me those things are not related. Nobody. Ever.

[Jonesy]

Yeah i'll just have to disagree with you guys--don't think Jensen dislikes the show like you guys do now and do NOT think they've denigrated the boys or raised Jack too much.  I think they've been looking for a graceful way out for a while--hence their trial balloon about maybe ending at episode 300.   Since many decried that, they went on for another year and a half or so.   15 years was probably longer than they wanted to(despite being ginger about it)--simply because 15 years is a shockingly long time to spend on any show.   

But hey, don't think we'll convince each other regardless...so each their own.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by Jakes

[gonzosgirrl]

I am very much of the opinion that Jensen is (mostly) a 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' kind of guy*. In my opinion, his virtual radio silence on social media regarding the actual show/writing/writers since Dabb took over is telling. The only thing he's shown any enthusiasm for (outside of a couple directors and guest stars) was Michael!Dean, and Dabb screwed him over, big time (again, IMO). If he has ever had a complimentary word to say about Dabb-as-showrunner, I haven't seen or heard it. In fact, two of the very few show-related things he has spoken about were Berens not 'getting' [Jensen's perspective on] the Dean/Mary relationship/resolution, and Dabb failing to give him any direction where his portrayal of Michael was concerned.

So yeah, I just don't believe the show is ending just because the Js were ready for it. I lay that right at the feet of Dabb and those who enabled him.

* (Again, the ridiculous marionette fight of 13x23 notwithstanding.)

Edited July 8, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Bobcatkitten]

The marionette fight of infamy. 

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

* (Again, the ridiculous marionette fight of 13x23 notwithstanding.)

He flat out said they made him look like an idiot.  Singer is a veteran director.  He had to know it wasn't working.  I remember reading something about how the production team said it wasn't possible but he was determined. 

I don't think Jensen hates the show.  I think its the exact opposite.  He loves the show and the cast and the crew and the friends and family he's made and the oppotunities that its given him, hence the reason hes' always add quality as a qualifying statement as to how long the show would go.   They dont' want the show to completely fizzle out.  (Debatable whether that has happened as everyone wold have a different opinion).  But I found their comments, "Like a dog you love putting it down."  And "the writing was on to the wall as to when the show was going to fizzle out, and if he could go right and keep going until it ran out of gas or go left he go out with a bag, he's going left."  Very telling, about their feelings toward the quality of the show.

Jensen seems to have really pulled back from social media lately too.   Danneel also.   I don't think we've ever had such a long dry spell from both of them.

Edited July 8, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He flat out said they made him look like an idiot.  Singer is a veteran director.  He had to know it wasn't working.  I remember reading something about how the production team said it wasn't possible but he was determined. 

I don't think Jensen hates the show.  I think its the exact opposite.  He loves the show and the cast and the crew and the friends and family he's made and the oppotunities that its given him, hence the reason hes' always add quality as a qualifying statement as to how long the show would go.   They dont' want the show to completely fizzle out.  (Debatable whether that has happened as everyone wold have a different opinion).  But I found their comments, "Like a dog you love putting it down."  And "the writing was on to the wall as to when the show was going to fizzle out, and if he could go right and keep going until it ran out of gas or go left he go out with a bag, he's going left."  Very telling, about their feelings toward the quality of the show.

Jensen seems to have really pulled back from social media lately too.   Danneel also.   I don't think we've ever had such a long dry spell from both of them.

Geez,  now I'm really worried and fearful for what they have in store for Dean with this ending that JP just couldn't wait to tell us they'd learned of.

Frankly, I think that this year I'm dreading Comic Con more than I ever have before.  😕

Edited July 8, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Bobcatkitten]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

He flat out said they made him look like an idiot.  Singer is a veteran director.  He had to know it wasn't working.  I remember reading something about how the production team said it wasn't possible but he was determined. 

I don't think Jensen hates the show.  I think its the exact opposite.  He loves the show and the cast and the crew and the friends and family he's made and the oppotunities that its given him, hence the reason hes' always add quality as a qualifying statement as to how long the show would go.   They dont' want the show to completely fizzle out.  (Debatable whether that has happened as everyone wold have a different opinion).  But I found their comments, "Like a dog you love putting it down."  And "the writing was on to the wall as to when the show was going to fizzle out, and if he could go right and keep going until it ran out of gas or go left he go out with a bag, he's going left."  Very telling, about their feelings toward the quality of the show.

Jensen seems to have really pulled back from social media lately too.   Danneel also.   I don't think we've ever had such a long dry spell from both of them.

I theorize Danneel has pulled back since her drunken abortion instagram video. I think she has only posted twice since. And Jensen has been spotty for a long time. Or it could be a simple thing like having three kids. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I theorize Danneel has pulled back since her drunken abortion instagram video. I think she has only posted twice since. And Jensen has been spotty for a long time. Or it could be a simple thing like having three kids. 

What drunken abortion instagram video? 

I know it could be family time, but with Jensen he didn't make a lot of posts since after Christmas.  So for whatever reason he's pulled back majorly.

[Bobcatkitten]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

What drunken abortion instagram video? 

I know it could be family time, but with Jensen he didn't make a lot of posts since after Christmas.  So for whatever reason he's pulled back majorly.

She was doing late night insta videos of a friend performing on her patio and admitted she had an abortion. It was during all the alabama stuff. She deleted it the next day. She was pretty tipsy. I wondered if she regretted it the next day. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

She was doing late night insta videos of a friend performing on her patio and admitted she had an abortion. It was during all the alabama stuff. She deleted it the next day. She was pretty tipsy. I wondered if she regretted it the next day. 

thanks.  I never even heard of that.

[AwesomO4000]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I dont' remember the exact comic con where Carver called Dean boring but for some reason I want to say 9 when he was gushing about the Gadreel story line .

Of course Carver would be gushing about the Gadreel storyline, because Gadreel was his character. In my opinion, it was the second season in a row that the character who ended up being shown as the most heroic - complete with heroic self-sacrifice - wasn't Sam or Dean, but one of Carver's original characters.

No one will ever be able to convince me that the Gadreel storyline was meant to be a good story for Sam. "The Purge" solidified for me that it wasn't really about Sam at all,*** because all of the set up from earlier that had to do with Sam was summarily dropped with that episode. Sam's role in that storyline was mainly to facilitate Gadreel and to make sure that Gadreel was declared as "misunderstood" on his way to being a redeemed, self-sacrificing hero while Sam did pretty much nothing in terms of saving the world and instead was turned into the judgemental jerk.

In my opinion, if Dabb is marginalizing Sam and Dean in terms of story arcs now, he's pretty much just following Carver's lead, because despite a meaty emotional storyline for Dean in season 9, it was still actually Gadreel who got the tragic hero's arc. Sam and Castiel spent a lot of the climactic last episodes talking about and cheerleading Gadreel even when it made little sense to do so and/or even contradicted what had actually happened previously. In my opinion, it was obvious and annoying character propping. So yeah, I'm sure that Carver was excited about the Gadreel storyline, because in my opinion, he probably already had his heroic redemption arc all planned to make sure that Gadreel was the emphasis of the storyline.

*** ...well except to set up Sam to be wrong - again - about one of Carver's original character pets only to later be shown the error of his ways and have to admit he was wrong about how he'd judged that character.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Jakes said:

There is nothing in their contracts that say the J's work only 3 to 4 days--they got less episodes and other characters in the show for that.  Both J's have said having more characters in the show is good for Sam and Dean--to have something to bounce off of.  

The show is still about the boys not Jack or Cas--they revolve around the boys not vice versa.  

I think this is more All Episodes than BvJ, but I've been burned enough so...

I sincerely don't understand how this can be said of Season 14. Like, literally, I cannot comprehend. It was about Nickifer (even Jack was about Nickifer). It was about Jack (the tragic death, coming back, mingling with the town children, the ramifications of using his powers, defeating Michael, killing MARY WINCHESTER and somehow making Dean the bad guy for wanting to end him over it, GOD HIMSELF fearing him).  The MichaelDean story got handed off to guest actors, and to freaking Rowena, and then Jack got the kill. General Sam's story was a joke from the jump (yelling at demons to go back to Hell, and it worked - wtaf?).

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think this is more All Episodes than BvJ, but I've been burned enough so...

I sincerely don't understand how this can be said of Season 14. Like, literally, I cannot comprehend. It was about Nickifer (even Jack was about Nickifer). It was about Jack (the tragic death, coming back, mingling with the town children, the ramifications of using his powers, defeating Michael, killing MARY WINCHESTER and somehow making Dean the bad guy for wanting to end him over it, GOD HIMSELF fearing him).  The MichaelDean story got handed off to guest actors, and to freaking Rowena, and then Jack got the kill. General Sam's story was a joke from the jump (yelling at demons to go back to Hell, and it worked - wtaf?).

I'm with you 100%. But it's not just S14. The focus has been off of Dean and Sam since Dabb took over full time starting with S12. That season focused on the BMOL, Lucifer in various meatsuits, Kelly and her pregnancy with Luci's child, and Mother Mary's trauma with her poor decisions. Sam and Dean ran around wringing their hands over all the problems the other characters created and that was really sad to watch. Then S13 was the "Wayward" season where the focus was on either Jack and how he fits in the world (or for that matter - which world), Jack and Mary in the AU and their problems with Michael, or Lucifer in every possible way along with introducing the Wayward gang. How in heaven's name do you have time to focus on Dean and Sam in that mess - except, of course, again wringing their hands over everyone else's problems. S14 is nicely described above. So basically the show is NOT FOCUSED on Dean and Sam, but focused on every other character and their sidekick. So, yeah, I'm pissed about wasting those three seasons and it's why I so desperately want to see the story go BACK TO THE BROTHERS IN THE FINAL SEASON!!!!

Edited July 15, 2019 by FlickChick

[SueB]

Casey clearly posted it because she thought it was funny. Then the comments come back vicious.  My prediction: by taping that poll to their door, the writers are not remotely chastened by this feedback.  In fact, I expect them to double down.  I don’t blame them. 

[Aeryn13]

I never thought they actually considered the feedback. They have shown themselves to be smug and concerned with their egos. They only want Polyanna-praise.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Casey clearly posted it because she thought it was funny. Then the comments come back vicious.  My prediction: by taping that poll to their door, the writers are not remotely chastened by this feedback.  In fact, I expect them to double down.  I don’t blame them. 

You don't blame them for ignoring their actual audience's concerns and disappointment in their work product? I don't condone nastiness in and of itself, but a legitimate complaint or criticism is part of the deal, IMO. Responding to what are essentially your customers with disdain is not very professional.

My only consolation is that these hacks wrote themselves right out of a job.

ETA: No doubt it was tweeted as 'a joke', but still, I don't think I'd be advertising to the world that not-small percentage of my audience thinks I suck.

Edited July 17, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[auntvi]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Casey clearly posted it because she thought it was funny. Then the comments come back vicious.  My prediction: by taping that poll to their door, the writers are not remotely chastened by this feedback.  In fact, I expect them to double down.  I don’t blame them. 

I need a lot more context than you provide and can't really find any on Twitter. On the face of it, I read the photo and comment as more snotty/snarky than funny.

[ILoveReading]

On 7/17/2019 at 7:43 AM, SueB said:

Casey clearly posted it because she thought it was funny. Then the comments come back vicious.  My prediction: by taping that poll to their door, the writers are not remotely chastened by this feedback.  In fact, I expect them to double down.  I don’t blame them. 

Considering they wrote themselves right out of a job, maybe they should have been a little more concerned with all the negative feedback.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Spoiler from an interview with Singer... 
<snip>
In the Season 14 finale, Dean fails to execute the gang's half-angel ward Jack (Alexander Calvert), who accidentally killed the brothers' mom, Mary (Samantha Smith), so the manipulative God, aka Chuck (Rob Benedict), quickly does the deed.  When an angry Sam shoots Chuck, the vengeful deity awakens the dead and unleashes hordes of ghosts and zombies that swarm the good guys, accompanied by the proclamation "Welcome to the end!"  Singer previews the apocalypse to come.  <snip>

Still want to tell me there is no anti-Dean bias out there? Whether this was Singer's language or the interviewers, it is, IMO, extremely telling.

Dean 'failed' to execute Jack.. Jack only 'accidentally' murdered Mary. Sam is angry over Chuck killing their nougat baby, but his shooting God is only seen as wrong in that it incited Chuck's wrath.

I would be amused to see how they would have phrased it had Dean actually killed, no, executed (because that sounds so much more insidious than killed) Jack. I'm thinking something like 'Dean failed to control his unreasonable temper and murdered the sweet nougat baby in a fit of pique'.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

would be amused to see how they would have phrased it had Dean actually killed, no, executed (because that sounds so much more insidious than killed) Jack. I'm thinking something like 'Dean failed to control his unreasonable temper and murdered the sweet nougat baby in a fit of pique'

That's not what I would have said.  Most of what I remember while watching the finale is that I was shouting "KILL HIM!" at the TV over and over.  I was down in Florida visiting my parents and my mom kept saying "calm down. He's not going to kill him."  But, I wanted him to, so bad.

And I was also glad Sam (or at least somebody) shot Chuck even if it did nothing, because I'm still upset about the whole retconning of Chuck into God.  I got some frustration out over that and Dean not killing stupid, annoying, I wish he didn't exist Jack vicariously through that shooting. 

I don't know why I'm so worked up today.  Sorry for the rant.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

That's not what I would have said.  Most of what I remember while watching the finale is that I was shouting "KILL HIM!" at the TV over and over.  I was down in Florida visiting my parents and my mom kept saying "calm down. He's not going to kill him."  But, I wanted him to, so bad.

And I was also glad Sam (or at least somebody) shot Chuck even if it did nothing, because I'm still upset about the whole retconning of Chuck into God.  I got some frustration out over that and Dean not killing stupid, annoying, I wish he didn't exist Jack vicariously through that shooting. 

I don't know why I'm so worked up today.  Sorry for the rant.

Oh believe me, I was shouting very similar words at the tv.  No problem with Sam shooting Chuck, either (except he and we knew that there was supposed to be an equal and opposite consequence for the shooter - and somehow nobody called Sam suicidal. Hmm.).

But how easy would it have been to say Dean realized they'd been played and didn't kill him. Or, Dean compassionately didn't kill him, chose not to execute him. No, Dean failed.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But how easy would it have been to say Dean realized they'd been played and didn't kill him. Or, Dean compassionately didn't kill him, chose not to execute him. No, Dean failed.

I agree.  Dean made the choice not to kill him. Failing would be shooting and missing.  Or even shooting and it not working.   I was just upset with his choice:)  Actually I was upset with Sam the whole episode because he was trying to talk Dean out of it.  20 more episodes, Katy.  Breathe.  It will be OK.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But how easy would it have been to say Dean realized they'd been played and didn't kill him. Or, Dean compassionately didn't kill him, chose not to execute him. No, Dean failed.

Choosing makes him intelligent and compassionate.  Failing makes him incompetent.

[Bobcatkitten]

How about "Dean spared the gang's half angel ward Jack."

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

How about "Dean spared the gang's half angel ward Jack."

This is exactly how it should have been worded because it's exactly what occurred. 

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Still want to tell me there is no anti-Dean bias out there? Whether this was Singer's language or the interviewers, it is, IMO, extremely telling.

Indeed.

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean 'failed' to execute Jack.. Jack only 'accidentally' murdered Mary

Not only is the anti-Dean bias apparent to me with this wording, but also the Marty Stu characterization for the NougatBaby. They're making sure that he will in no way whatsoever  be "tarnished"-not in the least-by the killing of the brothers' mother.

[Myrelle]

Spoiler

which will be seen as even more ridiculous, by this viewer,  if he's reinstated as "family" right off the bat and riding around in the Impala with them again as if nothing ever even happened.

And I'd bet the ranch that that is precisely what's going to happen in the Dabb-penned premiere, right along with Dean apologizing for being so meen! to the poor little woobie.  🙄

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

lf-angel ward Jack (Alexander Calvert), who accidentally killed the brothers' mom, Mary

This is such bullshit out of Singers mouth. It wasn't accidental. Jack  intentionally wanted Mary to stop and he used his power to stop her. He did it on purpose. I hate that they completely bailed out on Jack being a full villain by Singer framing it as accidental. And no being soulless wasn't even accidental nor out of his control. He chose to burn off his soul to use his powers so knowing it would burn off his soul.  IMO, the only way they make Jack interesting is to take him full darkside and make him the villain of s15.

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the only way they make Jack interesting is to take him full darkside and make him the villain of s15

Which doesn't seem likely if Billie is offering him something, unless she's offering that he become the new King of Hell.