“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Thinking about the end scene, I don't think it would bother too much if it wasn't the norm rather than the exception.  Usually when Dean opens up and pours his heart you rarely does the show write supportive dialogue.  Dean's hell confession, the Love Hurts confession*, confessing he felt guilty about John's death.    Sam usually sits there in Silence.

*Love Hurts- This is one can fall either way depending on how you view it.  Sam gave some platitudes but in the end, he never really contradicts Dean's believes that he's not strong enough.  Making me wonder if he agrees.

 

  Hide contents

There a reference to someone dying under Sam's command.  This may or may not be a spoiler.  It strongly suggested it was.  Given the synopsis of episode 5, I suspect it will end up happening.  I would bet all my money that no one will give Sam "silent support." I expect Dean will be the first to give a pep talk, followed by NotBobby and Mary and probably the AU hunters will say they dont' blame Sam and that's the job and they fully support their chief and will follow him to the ends of the earth and back. 

I am 100% confident that your spoiler spec will transpire exactly as predicted. Only Dean is supposed to glean unconditional support, love and understanding from a meaningful glance and/or weighty silence.

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, in terms of Dean-hating/diminishing, Sam-worshipping year, Season 14 is off to a great start if that is one's jam. 

It's S12b all over again and everything that I feared would happen after Michael exited Dean.

Little did we know the extent to which Michael's possession of Dean would be so under-written and so undermined by Dabb and co., though. And I think even Jensen never saw this coming-not after the promises that were made to him about the writing allowing him to explore the character more and in a more in-depth fashion than he was allowed to do with DemonDean and PurgatoryDean. 

He said all of this in interviews and now, he's not saying anything at all.

I mean Dabb must have literally started his re-writing the second that the Js re-signed for Michael!Dean to have been dropped in such an all of a sudden manner and so unceremoniously.

Unless... JA IS the subject of that Ausiello blind item. 

Then this would all make a kind of warped sense because if they plan on killing Dean off at the end of the season, there's even more ways that they could make that happen within the Michael storyline now.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Myrelle

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Unless... JA IS the subject of that Ausiello blind item. 

I wouldn't be upset if he was. The last few seasons are showing us that Jensen's talents are being wasted here. 

 

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He said all of this in interviews and now, he's not saying anything at all.

Which sucks that he was so excited about the potential of this storyline which turned out to be nothing! Demon Dean and Purgatory all over again. It's amazing that the puppet fight is the only thing that he's vented about though I guess it's because he doesn't read ahead and didn't know how much he was going to be screwed later on.

 

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I mean Dabb must have literally started his re-writing the second that the Js re-signed for Michael!Dean to have been dropped in such an all of a sudden manner and so unceremoniously.

I'm positive that this is what happened.

 

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Then this would all make a kind of warped sense because if they plan on killing Dean off at the end of the season, there's even more ways that they could make that happen within the Michael storyline now.

Which would end up with everyone comforting "chief" about his dead brother before he continues on fighting the good fight. Blech.

Edited October 29, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wouldn't be upset if he was. The last few seasons are showing us that Jensen's talents are being wasted here. 

ITA and I'm hoping and praying that it's him, at this point.

 

21 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which sucks that he was so excited about the potential of this storyline which turned out to be nothing! Demon Dean and Purgatory all over again

At this point, the DemonDean storyline is looking like it was written ten times better than the Michael!Dean storyline to me.

 

23 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which would end up with everyone comforting "chief" about his dead brother before he continues on fighting the good fight. Blech.

 I couldn't care less. 

Jensen would be free of the drek writing that these clowns try to pass off as "professional" writing and I would finally be free of it, too.

That tweet by Berens in the episode thread about how altogether Awesome! his Kaia Sue character was in this last episode still has me seeing red.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That tweet by Berens in the episode thread about how altogether Awesome! his Kaia Sue character was in this last episode still has me seeing red.

Me too. That was just gross IMO.

[devlin]

I still can’t believe no one thanked dean for sacrificing his life and that if he hadn’t done that sam and horrible man baby would both be dead and luci would have free reign while being incredibly powerful. The other thing that I can’t believe is that sam didn’t bother to tell dean that his home and safe place had been invaded by strangers and all he said once dean witnessed it, was a very blasé remark of that there have been some changes. And this mollycoddling of the horrible man baby has got to stop

[SueB]

56 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It's S12b all over again and everything that I feared would happen after Michael exited Dean.

Little did we know the extent to which Michael's possession of Dean would be so under-written and so undermined by Dabb and co., though. And I think even Jensen never saw this coming-not after the promises that were made to him about the writing allowing him to explore the character more and in a more in-depth fashion than he was allowed to do with DemonDean and PurgatoryDean. 

He said all of this in interviews and now, he's not saying anything at all.

I mean Dabb must have literally started his re-writing the second that the Js re-signed for Michael!Dean to have been dropped in such an all of a sudden manner and so unceremoniously.

Unless... JA IS the subject of that Ausiello blind item. 

Then this would all make a kind of warped sense because if they plan on killing Dean off at the end of the season, there's even more ways that they could make that happen within the Michael storyline now.

Just to clarify timing:
- The J's were 'invited back' the second week of November.
- Contracts were signed NLT early January, most likely mid December
- The Michael!Dean storyline did not get discussed (as far as I can tell) until JUST before Paleyfest in March. It's about this time that I think Dabb was unoficially told S14 was a go. It was announce late March/early Apr. 
- The news about Wayward Sisters wasn't until late May -- they had been working in the writer's room for nearly a month by then.

So, if there was ANY rewriting, I suspect it was de-Wayward Sister any episodes and reshape 14.3 to resolve the EvilKaia through the rift thing.  And that's probably when they connected the two storylines for 14.3 and maybe again later on since they left that spear out there floating with EvilKaia.

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Contracts were signed NLT early January, most likely mid Decembe

Not necessarily.  I remember at one of the comic cons Jared mentioned that he hadn't signed his contract yet.  That means he signed it after filming started.

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

The news about Wayward Sisters wasn't until late May -- they had been working in the writer's room for nearly a month by then.

So either they knew way before everyone that wayward wasn't getting picked up, outright lied to Jensen, or wrote two versions of episode 3.  One if WS got picked  up and one if it didn't.  Either way its kind of a crappy thing to do to your lead actor when Dabb knew he was disappointed with how short Demon Dean was and Jensen asking if he'll have time to develop the character.

They could have given a couple of episodes to Kaia to wrap up that story without  giving her the Michael arc.  Again Jensen's a lead.  She's had two episodes.  Jensen should have taken priority over Beren's Sue.

 

34 minutes ago, devlin said:

I still can’t believe no one thanked dean for sacrificing his life and that if he hadn’t done that sam and horrible man baby would both be dead and luci would have free reign while being incredibly powerful. The other thing that I can’t believe is that sam didn’t bother to tell dean that his home and safe place had been invaded by strangers and all he said once dean witnessed it, was a very blasé remark of that there have been some changes. And this mollycoddling of the horrible man baby has got to stop

I have a feeling coddling of Manbaby is going to get worse. 

Spoiler

If epiosde 8 goes the way I think it will, I'd skip it.

Edited October 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

37 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not necessarily.  I remember at one of the comic cons Jared mentioned that he hadn't signed his contract yet.  That means he signed it after filming started.

So either they knew way before everyone that wayward wasn't getting picked up, outright lied to Jensen, or wrote two versions of episode 3.  One if WS got picked  up and one if it didn't.  Either way its kind of a crappy thing to do to your lead actor when Dabb knew he was disappointed with how short Demon Dean was and Jensen asking if he'll have time to develop the character.

They could have given a couple of episodes to Kaia to wrap up that story without  giving her the Michael arc.  Again Jensen's a lead.  She's had two episodes.  Jensen should have taken priority over Beren's Sue.

 

I have a feeling coddling of Manbaby is going to get worse. 

  Hide contents

If epiosde 8 goes the way I think it will, I'd skip it.

I'm talking specifically THIS year.  And it happened before the first convention in January.  And Jensen specifically said they were asked back the 2nd week of November.

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So either they knew way before everyone that wayward wasn't getting picked up, outright lied to Jensen, or wrote two versions of episode 3.  One if WS got picked  up and one if it didn't.  Either way its kind of a crappy thing to do to your lead actor when Dabb knew he was disappointed with how short Demon Dean was and Jensen asking if he'll have time to develop the character.

I'm pretty confident contracts were signed before spring. However, I think what catrox said in the Dean thread was the most likely turn of events, that the Michael storyline was dumped the moment they got the call that WS wasn't picked up, which was in May, after the actors had left for hiatus. Whether they knew before that I can't say, but everyone involved was acting like it was a done deal until it wasn't, so I do feel like it was a surprise - one clearly that Dabb and Berens did not take well. So I think right after that they got together, cut out the Michael storyline almost entirely, and sat down to figure out how they were going to turn the show into Waywardnatural as much as they could get away with. If WS was a go, I'm sure the whole Kaia Sue angle was the primary storyline for the spinoff, which means they could take a chance to do something with Dean!Michael on the mothership. No spinoff means all their WS plans have to be incorporated within the only show they can shoehorn them into.

The problem is that it doesn't appear they called and updated Jensen with the fact that once again he was going to get screwed out of yet another storyline. They hung him out to dry at Comic Con and let him go on and on and on and on about how the story would last longer than we'd expect, and how Dabb promised him that he'd get a chance to "sink his teeth" into the role. No one better than Jensen knows how Jensen has been screwed over multiple times by believing storylines were going to amount to something, only to see that they didn't. Clearly he was really concerned about that, which is the reason he went to Dabb for assurances - only to find out after his CC appearance that, oops, they did it again. And that couldn't have made him happy at the time.

I normally never believe Ausiello's Blind Items have anything to do with Supernatural, but I admit this time I am seriously wondering if it might, especially the way he emphasizes that said individual is leaving a long-running series. There aren't a lot of series on the air right now that qualify as long-running, Supernatural being one of the few. It's probably not, I do think the Js made a pact to leave together, thus ending the show - but, never say never.

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm talking specifically THIS year.  And it happened before the first convention in January.  And Jensen specifically said they were asked back the 2nd week of November.

I know you were talking about this year.  I was just using that as an example that it wasn't a done deal that the contracts were signed in december or January.  We have no idea when they were signed.

20 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I think what catrox said in the Dean thread was the most likely turn of events, that the Michael storyline was dumped the moment they got the call that WS wasn't picked up

The thing is that episodes are written so far in advance.  I remember Jensen talking about what a script has to go through to get approved and it sounds like a long process.  So when they found out Wayward Sue's was not going forward, episode 3 should have been broken and mostly written.    Which is why I think they wrote two potential scripts.  Because the Sue's were the priority I think they discussed the possibility of how to incorporate it on the off chance it wasn't picked up.

No matter what, I stand by my point.  It was a crappy thing to do to Jensen.  I don't think he had read the 3rd script by comic con since he doesn't read ahead. 

Or knowing Beren's and Dabb's preferences, it wouldnt' surprise me to find out that they had planned this all along as a crossover to help Wayward if the ratings were struggling.

30 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I normally never believe Ausiello's Blind Items have anything to do with Supernatural,

I don't either.  I find they're not as dramatic as he makes them out to be.  It was described as an original cast member leaving a long running series, and revealing it would ruin a storyline.   They ruled out anything on Fox.   I would guess its either NCIS or Grey's.   The guy that plays Ducky would qualify.   So it might be him, but I don't see them keeping that a secret or announcing it ruining a potential storyline as he's got one foot out the door anyway.   Unless its Mark Harmon but NCIS without GIbbs is like the X-Files without Mulder and Scully.   I don't watch Grey's so I have no idea whose orginal or what storylines leaving would effect.

I get why Jensen stays.   He has the closet thing you can get to job stability in Hollywood.  For him I'm sure the pros far outweight the cons, so I don't blame him for staying, but it sucks as a Dean fan that the show refuses to write for him.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The problem is that it doesn't appear they called and updated Jensen with the fact that once again he was going to get screwed out of yet another storyline. They hung him out to dry at Comic Con and let him go on and on and on and on about how the story would last longer than we'd expect, and how Dabb promised him that he'd get a chance to "sink his teeth" into the role. No one better than Jensen knows how Jensen has been screwed over multiple times by believing storylines were going to amount to something, only to see that they didn't. Clearly he was really concerned about that, which is the reason he went to Dabb for assurances - only to find out after his CC appearance that, oops, they did it again. And that couldn't have made him happy at the time.

For this, more than anything, I loathe the powers that be behind SPN. I blame Dabb in pretty much every way, but I realize more and more that it's not just Dabb, but Singer, his wife and the writers (who I recognize are given a mandate to follow, unless their names are Buckner or Ross-Lemming). So in future, when I type "Dabb", just assume I hate them all.

 

ETA: People ask why I still watch if I hate it so much, or the less kind ones tell me not to let the door hit me in the ass on my way out, cuz 'real' fans wouldn't criticize so much. Well I watch because despite all the shit dealt to the actor and the character, Jensen delivers on Dean in ways that rise above the crappy writing. I want to see that performance. But goddamn, they are making it hard. I just don't know how much longer I can watch them ruin the character I love so much.

Edited October 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
to bold for clarity

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I get why Jensen stays.   He has the closet thing you can get to job stability in Hollywood.  For him I'm sure the pros far outweight the cons, so I don't blame him for staying, but it sucks as a Dean fan that the show refuses to write for him.

I get it, too-or I did before this season started.

 

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The problem is that it doesn't appear they called and updated Jensen with the fact that once again he was going to get screwed out of yet another storyline. They hung him out to dry at Comic Con and let him go on and on and on and on about how the story would last longer than we'd expect, and how Dabb promised him that he'd get a chance to "sink his teeth" into the role. No one better than Jensen knows how Jensen has been screwed over multiple times by believing storylines were going to amount to something, only to see that they didn't. Clearly he was really concerned about that, which is the reason he went to Dabb for assurances - only to find out after his CC appearance that, oops, they did it again. And that couldn't have made him happy at the time.

But this...This should make him angry enough to start thinking differently, IMO, because it goes right to the core of the concept of personal and professional integrity within his relationship with the writers of this show.

Who knows, maybe they can and will make it right by the end of this season, but IDK, it doesn't feel to me as if they care to or want to make it right, though-not even a little. Not this bunch.

On the contrary, it really feels to me as if they think and feel that they've done nothing wrong whatsoever in that regard.

I think that the EW interview where he slammed Dabb for not helping him at all with Michael!Dean was very telling of  his less than loving feelings towards Dabb for that lack. And coupled with JP stating that he'd talked extensively with Dabb about Sam?...

That's disrespect, IMO, and he's finally got to be feeling some of that too, considering how vocal he's been about his unhappiness with first the wire fight and now with the complete lack of help and direction he received from Dabb with his new character.

He WAS very quiet after filming started. Gonzosgirl pointed this out numerous times and now that we've gotten the first three epsiodes...well, just going by what we've seen of him at cons and through interviews and such, he does seem to me like the kind of person who would think long and hard before he'd speak publicly or act on anything. 

IDK, maybe Dabb felt that Michael!Dean was going to be so short-lived anyway that letting Jensen handle it all on his own was the smart choice, but it doesn't sound like he let Jensen in on any of his thoughts concerning Michael!Dean at all.

And if he didn't know that JA wasn't thrilled with that before, he should definitely know it now.

Maybe this is yet another reason why most actors ask for producer credit after a certain amount time has gone by.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

On 10/27/2018 at 11:25 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I've been saying this for two seasons now  - it's too repetitive and relentless for it to just be coincidence. I honestly believe these men are intimidated by and jealous of Jensen and the only power they have is take it out on the character.

I remember someone at a con I think, I can't remember who, who must have travelled with Jensen a bit, maybe to conventions or to the set, saying they noticed Jensen got picked a lot by airport security for extra checks, etc, he said it was like all these guys who were unpopular in high school finally having a chance to get back at the captain of the football team or something along those lines.  That's how I always think of most of these writers.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

I remember someone at a con I think, I can't remember who, who must have travelled with Jensen a bit, maybe to conventions or to the set, saying they noticed Jensen got picked a lot by airport security for extra checks, etc, he said it was like all these guys who were unpopular in high school finally having a chance to get back at the captain of the football team or something along those lines.  That's how I always think of most of these writers.

That is precisely what I meant. It's sad because fangirliness aside, Jensen seems like a genuinely good, kind man.

I swear some of this dialogue (like Teenage Mutant Ninja Sue's) is right out of an anti-Dean fanfic.

Edited October 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

15 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Me too. That was just gross IMO.

Oh my god she was PAINFUL.  She was awkward, unnatural, everything about her was forced.  She was anything but awesome.  The only thing good about Michael/Kaia flashback fight scene was Jensen's awesome moves, she looked like she was faking it all the way through. She would have looked worse if she'd been fighting with any other character, as usual, he helped make her look better than she was.

[Aeryn13]

That flashy pose at the end after she saved the day looked so awkward and so fake. It was 100 % "look at me and my twirly moves". The stunt choreography in the Arrow-verse shows has gone down somewhat, especially Arrow, but a) they have established themselves as using more flashy martial arts and parkour moves from the start and b) the accomplished martial artists characters would never do such a ridiculous pose at the tail end of a fight. They go back into a fighting stance, weapon at the ready within a fight when they dealt with one opponent but are still facing multiple more.

SPN doesn`t use martials arts choregraphy in the first place and if they did, they`d know better than to use such ridiculous posturing. That was amateur hour by the director. 

They didn`t even bother with the scene where Super-Kaia drop-kicks everyone in a matter of seconds because no way they can make that look realistic or believable so instead it was using jump cuts. That always reminds me of the "17 cuts to have Liam Neeson go over a fence" joke. And making two supposedly trained fighters as well as a trained police offer look like chumps in the process flew over everyone`s head.

But hey, as long as she is a "deadly, heart-stopping beauty" to a salivating writer, all is good, right?  

[tessathereaper]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That flashy pose at the end after she saved the day looked so awkward and so fake. It was 100 % "look at me and my twirly moves". The stunt choreography in the Arrow-verse shows has gone down somewhat, especially Arrow, but a) they have established themselves as using more flashy martial arts and parkour moves from the start and b) the accomplished martial artists characters would never do such a ridiculous pose at the tail end of a fight. They go back into a fighting stance, weapon at the ready within a fight when they dealt with one opponent but are still facing multiple more.

SPN doesn`t use martials arts choregraphy in the first place and if they did, they`d know better than to use such ridiculous posturing. That was amateur hour by the director. 

They didn`t even bother with the scene where Super-Kaia drop-kicks everyone in a matter of seconds because no way they can make that look realistic or believable so instead it was using jump cuts. That always reminds me of the "17 cuts to have Liam Neeson go over a fence" joke. And making two supposedly trained fighters as well as a trained police offer look like chumps in the process flew over everyone`s head.

But hey, as long as she is a "deadly, heart-stopping beauty" to a salivating writer, all is good, right?  

There's a moment in the fight flashback where MichaelDean "squares up" against Kaia and it's like night and day, it came across as second nature.  Jensen popped into that stance like it was the most natural thing in the world.  And before anyone goes in about ages and experience and what not - we have examples of Jensen's fight scenes from when he was in his early 20's and he was good then too, he's better now but he was still good then.  That's what makes it so laughable that Kaia won that fight - you're watching the fight and going "How the hell did that happen" because she just looks so bad it doesn't seem possible.  And if anything I think Jensen was holding back so as not to make it look too uneven.

[Myrelle]

I saw a post on tumblr where the poster said that Kaia Sue's moves reminded him/her of that scene from Indiana Jones where an assassin with scimitars threateningly twirls them all over the place, only to be plugged by a bullet from Indy for all that ridiculous flash. He/she posted the scene with the comment and I got a good laugh out of that one.

2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

There's a moment in the fight flashback where MichaelDean "squares up" against Kaia and it's like night and day, it came across as second nature

That. Was Amazing.

I've seen that everywhere.

What a waste of yet another one of The Ackles' talents.

Fools.

[Pondlass1]

25 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But hey, as long as she is a "deadly, heart-stopping beauty" to a salivating writer, all is good, right?  

Thing is - they've fallen into the trap of Bad Guys/Gals = haughty, sullen super warrior.  Why can't we have an intelligent, charismatic, mischievous baddie with a sense of humour for once?    The snot faced, puddle deep bad guys/gals we get on this show are all cut from the same predictable cloth.  And anyway Hoodie Spear Gal will probably be totally woobie by next episode.  Maybe she'll get consumption too.

Jensen as Michael Dean would've been a shot in the arm.  And I honestly do hope Jensen speaks out.  He was excited for Michael.  He said he was surprised how long it would last (surprised because his arcs generally don't last five minutes).   He's got to be miffed.

And if Jensen does speak out I don't think it would affect his ability to find another gig because he's deemed 'difficult'.  He's been nothing but professional, hardworking and classy throughout the series.  I'm sure his reputation precedes him. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I saw a post on tumblr where the poster said that Kaia Sue's moves reminded him/her of that scene from Indiana Jones where an assassin with scimitars threateningly twirls them all over the place, only to be plugged by a bullet from Indy for all that ridiculous flash. He/she posted the scene with the comment and I got a good laugh out of that one.

Hahaha. Yes, one of the most iconic Indy scenes, and an ad-lib (so to speak) from Harrison Ford at that, just because he was tired, wanted off set and the scene done quickly without a longish fight. 

They should have referenced that by Michael just snapping his fingers and bam, her legs are broken. If he didn`t want to kill her. 

Quote

Thing is - they've fallen into the trap of Bad Guys/Gals = haughty, sullen super warrior.  Why can't we have an intelligent, charismatic, mischievous baddie with a sense of humour for once?    The snot faced, puddle deep bad guys/gals we get on this show are all cut from the same predictable cloth. 

Yup, same way we started out last Season with Colonel Super-Chicken or whatever he was called. Man, was that guy boring. And then he gave us Gabriel who had turned ultra-wimp after a bit of itty-bitty torture. Horrible story.

Quote

And anyway Hoodie Spear Gal will probably be totally woobie by next episode.  Maybe she'll get consumption too.

Undoubtedly. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

Even if he wanted to toy with her, there is no reason why Michael wouldn't have used his powers to get the spear once KaiaSue dropped it.   There was no reason to continue hand to hand combat because Michael had won at that point.

It was all about Beren's showing off his character.  Even more ridiculous was the the slow mo somersault out the window to grab the spear. 

It's frustrating because Jensen, was planting the seeds of a big bad that felt like a big bag.  Michael was powerful, threatening and intimidating.

All that was undone in 30 seconds because Berens can't handle the fact that his Sue's weren't picked up.

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

There's a moment in the fight flashback where MichaelDean "squares up" against Kaia and it's like night and day, it came across as second nature.  Jensen popped into that stance like it was the most natural thing in the world.  And before anyone goes in about ages and experience and what not - we have examples of Jensen's fight scenes from when he was in his early 20's and he was good then too, he's better now but he was still good then.  That's what makes it so laughable that Kaia won that fight - you're watching the fight and going "How the hell did that happen" because she just looks so bad it doesn't seem possible.  And if anything I think Jensen was holding back so as not to make it look too uneven.

A small consolation is that Michael did easily win, at first. His mistake was going for the spear before bothering to knock Kaia unconscious/kill her. I guess it was supposed to highlight Michael's arrogance that allowed for him to be caught off-guard, but his decision to physically fight her in the first place was too mind-bogglingly nonsensical for me to look beyond that.

I really want a future scene where Kaia tries to go after Michael again and he just freezes her in place or knocks her out (or just smites her), then gives a throwaway line about not needing to "test" her anymore. I would find that stupidly satisfying. But then that would imply that Kaia isn't, in fact, the most super-special-warrior-wunderkind in all the universes, which is clearly unacceptable. 

I also like that he called her Wild One. There's nothing remotely "wild" about her perfectly shampooed and conditioned hair, completely clean face, and spotless ripoff-Sith robe. Purgatory Dean looked far wilder and more savage than she could ever be.

Edited October 29, 2018 by BabySpinach

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Thing is - they've fallen into the trap of Bad Guys/Gals = haughty, sullen super warrior.  Why can't we have an intelligent, charismatic, mischievous baddie with a sense of humour for once? 

You mean like Michael!Dean was showing himself to be...or Crowley and Lucifer were until Dabb got a hold of them.  Sigh...they had such a chance to do such a great thing...and pffft.  Thus far anyway.  Maybe I'll happily eat my words when the season is all said and done.

[FlickChick]

11 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The problem is that it doesn't appear they called and updated Jensen with the fact that once again he was going to get screwed out of yet another storyline. They hung him out to dry at Comic Con and let him go on and on and on and on about how the story would last longer than we'd expect, and how Dabb promised him that he'd get a chance to "sink his teeth" into the role. No one better than Jensen knows how Jensen has been screwed over multiple times by believing storylines were going to amount to something, only to see that they didn't. Clearly he was really concerned about that, which is the reason he went to Dabb for assurances - only to find out after his CC appearance that, oops, they did it again. And that couldn't have made him happy at the time.

Yes, at Comic Con and other appearances prior to the premiere of the show to garner hype/viewers. I also noticed the complete lack of Jared in those appearances. Is it possible that, since Jared reads ahead and Jensen doesn't, that he knew about the extremely short MichaelDean scenes and kept it to himself? I wondered why they both weren't on to promote the show. I'd hate to think that Jared would keep that information from Jensen while Jensen is going on and on about this great opportunity to play a different character, etc. And I think it's terrible that neither the writer (Dabb) or director gave Jensen any help/direction regarding this new character. And Jared is then talking about all his conversations with Dabb about Sam. (from @Myrelle's post above). That is the epitome of insulting to Jensen. Put me in the camp with those who wish he would leave this show that doesn't respect his professionalism or talent.

[MysteryGuest]

I doubt very much that we've seen the last of Dean/Michael.  I'm assuming we'll see more, but it will be as flashbacks.  I'm fine with that because I get the best of both worlds...I get Dean and I get to see Jensen playing someone else.  I see that as a win.  I personally wouldn't have been happy if the Michael story went on for too many more episodes.  The show needs Dean.  There's no way they're writing him out of the show.

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, at Comic Con and other appearances prior to the premiere of the show to garner hype/viewers. I also noticed the complete lack of Jared in those appearances. Is it possible that, since Jared reads ahead and Jensen doesn't, that he knew about the extremely short MichaelDean scenes and kept it to himself? I wondered why they both weren't on to promote the show. I'd hate to think that Jared would keep that information from Jensen while Jensen is going on and on about this great opportunity to play a different character, etc. And I think it's terrible that neither the writer (Dabb) or director gave Jensen any help/direction regarding this new character. And Jared is then talking about all his conversations with Dabb about Sam. (from @Myrelle's post above). That is the epitome of insulting to Jensen. Put me in the camp with those who wish he would leave this show that doesn't respect his professionalism or talent.

Jared just needed a break. The first two episodes were being filmed around that time and if Dabb wants the Sam show Jared needs to be on set. Though I’m sure Dabb would like Jared to be on set every day of filming, he is only contracted a certain amount of days. I don’t blame Jared for that, a full weeks shoot followed by the comic con meat grinder right back into another weeks shoot would get really frustrating.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Jared just needed a break. The first two episodes were being filmed around that time and if Dabb wants the Sam show Jared needs to be on set. Though I’m sure Dabb would like Jared to be on set every day of filming, he is only contracted a certain amount of days. I don’t blame Jared for that, a full weeks shoot followed by the comic con meat grinder right back into another weeks shoot would get really frustrating.

Thing is, Jared wasn't really in the bulk of either of those episodes either. It was the Nickifer/NougatBaby show. Personally, I've had the same suspicions as FlickChick since SDCC and nothing has happened since to change my mind.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That flashy pose at the end after she saved the day looked so awkward and so fake. It was 100 % "look at me and my twirly moves". The stunt choreography in the Arrow-verse shows has gone down somewhat, especially Arrow, but a) they have established themselves as using more flashy martial arts and parkour moves from the start and b) the accomplished martial artists characters would never do such a ridiculous pose at the tail end of a fight. They go back into a fighting stance, weapon at the ready within a fight when they dealt with one opponent but are still facing multiple more.

SPN doesn`t use martials arts choregraphy in the first place and if they did, they`d know better than to use such ridiculous posturing. That was amateur hour by the director. 

They didn`t even bother with the scene where Super-Kaia drop-kicks everyone in a matter of seconds because no way they can make that look realistic or believable so instead it was using jump cuts. That always reminds me of the "17 cuts to have Liam Neeson go over a fence" joke. And making two supposedly trained fighters as well as a trained police offer look like chumps in the process flew over everyone`s head.

But hey, as long as she is a "deadly, heart-stopping beauty" to a salivating writer, all is good, right?  

You might have Bob Berens confused with another writer.  Jensen is more his type.  And in fact he said during interviews in S12 that he momentarily lost the ability to speak in his presence because... it's Jensen and that happens all the time... I blame it on the musk.  

He may feel Yadira is a 'heart-stopping beauty' but he's not personally salivating over her based on preferences. 

[Aeryn13]

Im fully aware of his preferences, I meant salivating over his pet character. Like Thompson used to about Charlie and he basically said she was his insert. Extreme author's pet doesn't have to mean sexual attraction.

Meanwhile he is shitting on Dean every chance he is get which I believe comes from a place of pettiness. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "The Scar" episode thread.

43 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

1) It's like none of the  characters on this show can recognize when Dean is vulnerable because the writers won't let them and I'd like to know why that is. And just telling him that they know when he's "afraid" or fearful or feeling "weak" is not enough. Someone should be telling him that he's strong to have survived Michael possessing him and for fighting as hard as he did during those three long weeks when it was taking place and that they're happy that he's back with them and that they're grateful to him for sacrificing himself in that way and saving their lives.

But we got none of that from any of the other characters via the writing in an episode when Dean so clearly needed it. 

And it's not the first time that this has happened, so maybe it's that the writers feel that every other character on the show needs those things while Dean doesn't, but just going by Jensen's performances of Dean in those situations over the years, I'd have to disagree vehemently with them(and with anyone, for that matter) who could believe that about Dean.

2) He needs those type of words now (and has in the past also when they were denied him by anyone and everyone including and starting with dear old dad all those many years ago) just as much as Jack or Sam or Bobby or Mary or Cas has ever needed them and HE was the one providing them more often than not.

One of his loved ones is going to have to step up in this way or I fear that they will lose Dean to his own inner demons for good and as he was almost lost to them last season in the episode Advanced Thanatology.

All my opinion coming up....

1) I can only theorize why some of the showrunners don't. I don't know what Dabb is saying yet, because we haven't finished this season, but the reason why I don't think it happened during the Carver reign is because I think Carver didn't think Dean needed it. I don't think Carver thought that Dean was vulnerable. Carver changed the dynamic somewhat in my opinion by having Dean be this way, and I think it was deliberate which I will expand on in a moment later on...

2) Actually I don't think Sam needed them per se... that was part of his character flaw in a way. Sam was generally comfortable with his own decisions and didn't really need words of encouragement from others. So this was kind of a complex thing for his character in that Sam looked up to and admired Dean - as he told Dean in season 3 - but I don't think it was really words of encouragement that Sam generally needed from Dean... it was for Dean to be the Big Brother. And part of that was Sam wanting to see Dean as strong and not needing that kind of thing himself, because he wants to see Dean as decisive and confident in what he's doing. So I think part of it is Sam just wanting to keep that delusion. In season 3, Sam wanted Dean to admit he was scared, because he saw that Dean was, and he probably hoped that by Dean admitting it, maybe he could confront it... because seeing Dean scared was freaking Sam out. It was messing up his world view. Sam hoped he could "save Dean," but he needed some of his "rock" in order to keep on trying. But in those early years, Sam wasn't completely unfeeling about Dean's insecurities. In my opinion, Sam gave Dean words of encouragement A Lot. (See below).

My theory is the times when Sam is most critical of Dean is when Sam's worldview is shaken. When Dean isn't that strong rock. Sam didn't need words of encouragement - in the early years... more on this is a moment - but he needs his "constants" and Big Brother Dean is one of those constants.

2B) Nonetheless, under normal circumstances (and this does not include a lot of season 4), Sam does give Dean words of encouragement quite a bit, especially when Dean is wondering if it's all worth it. Some notable examples (though I doubt all): "What Is...", "All Hell..., Pt 2", "Faith" (if I remember correctly), the first time Dean told Sam about hell (before Sam's character got run over by a bus), "Point of No Return," Mannequin 3...", "Season Seven, Time for a Wedding," much of season 7 actually, etc. Bobby was a mixed bag, with sometimes encouragement and sometimes not so much.

In contrast, Sam didn't seem to need words of encouragement as much. It's part of the reason he was able to leave for college even though John disowned him, and it was probably part of the reason that he got into so much trouble in season 4. But even after his screw up in season 4, Sam was dismayed about and hurt by Dean's comments about not being able to make things the way they were, but he still believed he would be able to make up for his mistakes (the end of "The End"). At the end of "Free to Be..." Sam was confident that he would be able to beat his addiction, and when he relapsed in "My Bloody Valentine" but ultimately beat it, he didn't need a "good job" from Dean, or any encouragement at all, which was a good thing, because Dean didn't give Sam any. In fact, a few episodes later Dean flat out told Sam he had no faith in him and that he was sure that Sam would say "yes" to Lucifer... and Sam still believed in himself and in Dean and that Dean would see his (Sam's) side in the end. And that his plan would to stop Lucifer would work. He wouldn't go on with the plan without everyone else, but Sam believed in himself that he could do it.

Sam didn't seem to need Dean's encouragement much in season 7 either. That one "stone number one" speech seemed to be enough encouragement for Sam for most of the season, even when Dean would later say he lied to Sam about Amy because he couldn't trust him due to the crazy. And despite the crazy, more often than not Sam was trying to encourage Dean out of his depression, not the other way around. So in some ways it's maybe hard for Sam to accept that Dean would need a lot of that kind of encouragement, because Sam himself didn't seem to need it...

Buuuuuut along comes Carver and changes the dynamic. All of a sudden Sam is supposedly outwardly sure of his - already un-Samlike, in my opinion - actions, but inside he supposedly just needs to hear encouragement from Dean that Dean doesn't like a vampire or an angel more than he likes Sam. What? Since when? Sam's generally been self-assured before, so why did Carver decide to change this dynamic? And in my opinion, it didn't work, and it wasn't a good look on Sam either, because instead of making him look vulnerable, it just made him look self -absorbed. And also all of a sudden, Sam isn't giving Dean those words of encouragement anymore either, and Dean is more assured that his decisions are right with less self doubt... and like Sam before him, this leads him down a bad path... but because Carver wants Dean's self-assuredness to be "right" he softens the blow considerably in my opinion, and that includes Dean not needing to get "encouragement," because he is supposed to be more sure that he's doing the right thing... But because Dean is Dean there is some "character-correction," and not all of this translates well.

I think Dean not getting as much encouragement mainly got even more entrenched there starting in season 8, and I think it was part of some character dynamic change Carver seemed to want. And in trying to change the character dynamics - Dean for the "better" and Sam (apparently, to me) for the worse, because the change didn't mesh with Sam's character - things got messed up dynamic-wise and it took a while for things to get back on track again for Sam (for a while).

But I think along the way though some things - unfortunately, in my opinion - got stuck, and now Dabb seems to think Sam does need this encouragement and acknowledgement from others while Dean doesn't, and so we got the Sam "leadership" thing, and this is why I dislike this arc and don't think it works, because I don't think this works with Sam's personality. Sam shouldn't give a crap what others - except maybe to an extent Dean and Bobby - think of him, and Sam should still want his "Big Brother" constant. That - to me - is who Sam was and who Sam was comfortable being.

Anyway that's my take on it...

[devlin]

The writing has become so atrocious that I can’t take it seriously. The OTT pimping of sam is laughable, the woobification of the man baby is ridiculous and the way the writers have included the Mary sue’s from their rejected show is just sad. I am probably a bad fan girl of Jensen but I just want to see him on my screen, I don’t care if he is being treated poorly by the writers coz at least he is giving beautiful performances. The writers can call dean a dick and a bully but that’s their opinion 

Edited October 30, 2018 by devlin

[mertensia]

Again, what the author has the character say is not necessarily what the author thinks or believes. Kaia went after Dean because she had negative memories from dead Kaia, from fighting Michael and because he was the one confronting her in the cabin. Do you really think had Dean not been there that she wouldn't have acted the same towards Sam? 

[Aeryn13]

Sam no longer is depicted as having any flaws so no, IF a character even would verbally go after him  - and even that is unlikely with demons basically worshipping him now- the scene would be framed entirely differently. It would be shown that the character is completely wrong and everyone would rush to Sam's defense.

No way in hell would a Kaia- Sam scene have played out like the one with Dean. If Dean hadn't been there, I can tell you exactly what would have happened: instead of telling Dean how much he sucks, she would have told Sam how much Dean sucks. But she would not have been full of contempt, hostile or insulting to Sam. 

[devlin]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam no longer is depicted as having any flaws so no, IF a character even would verbally go after him  - and even that is unlikely with demons basically worshipping him now- the scene would be framed entirely differently. It would be shown that the character is completely wrong and everyone would rush to Sam's defense.

No way in hell would a Kaia- Sam scene have played out like the one with Dean. If Dean hadn't been there, I can tell you exactly what would have happened: instead of telling Dean how much he sucks, she would have told Sam how much Dean sucks. But she would not have been full of contempt, hostile or insulting to Sam. 

It’s like when way back when, the crossroads demon used her time with sam to tear shreds off  dean rather than having a go at sam even though he was standing right in front of her. Add to that the fact that demons are now listening to and obeying sam and thinking he is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I think Kaia would have fallen to her knees and said how can I please you master? Dean wouldn’t have even been mentioned coz apparently Dean doesn’t matter.

[Aeryn13]

In a Dabb episode, she would have fallen to her knees. In a Berens episode I believe she would out-Sue Sam. The only consistent would be the "Dean is crap" message.

[mertensia]

My. We sure do watch different shows.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

No way in hell would a Kaia- Sam scene have played out like the one with Dean. If Dean hadn't been there, I can tell you exactly what would have happened: instead of telling Dean how much he sucks, she would have told Sam how much Dean sucks. But she would not have been full of contempt, hostile or insulting to Sam

Ladies and gentlemen,  Dabbernatural in a nutshell. 

Sam was every bit as much a part of what happened to Kaia as Dean was. Dean put the gun in her face, but Sam went along with it. All of it. They were both there in the Bad Place. But only Dean was the bully and the killer. Sam was right there too, but only Dean got *TMNS's vitriol. 

(*Teenage Mutant Ninja Sue)

Edited October 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ladies and gentlemen,  Dabbernatural in a nutshell. 

Sam was every bit as much a part of what happened to Kaia as Dean was. Dean put the gun in her face, but Sam went along with it. All of it. They were both there in the Bad Place. But only Dean was the bully and the killer. Sam was right there too, but only Dean got *TMNS's vitriol. 

(*Teenage Mutant Ninja Sue)

 

Yup.  When Dean got in TMNS's face, Sam and Jody stood there and watched but she didn't say anything to them either.  If KaiaSue actually did dare say anything to the great Chief, I bet dialogue would have been written to counteract it. 

Spoiler

Just wait until Chief loses someone under his command.  The pimping will come from all sides. 

I think the only reason the Michael storyline was allowed to see the light of day was that Dabb and co. saw it as an opportunity to write Dean as the asshat/selfish/weak/bully they see him as. 

If it wasn't Dabb wouldn't have made that breathing room comment.

IMO, the Dean I'm seeing these last few eps reminds me a lot of Dean from The End.  That cold, callous, uncaring version.  Seeing how his so-called family seems to feel the same way about him, its not surprising he ended up there.  He has no support system.

Edited October 30, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm trying to remember: has any villain, besides Azazel*, ever taunted Dean with Sam's failings? His demon-blood addiction, his God complex, his lies, etc, framed in a negative way? I.E, not that he was doing any/all of these things to save the world?  And in the event that it has happened, did Dean defend his brother (out loud, you know, with words)? Has Sam ever been put on trial, forced to defend his very existence?

The only time I can recall a list of Sam's offences being read into the record without immediately being refuted is by Dean himself in 8x23, when he listed the things Sam could 'confess' to -and we all know how that ended up. And a couple scenes later we had Dean begging Sam to live, crying how he didn't mean what he said and that Sam was the most important thing in his life.

*I recall that he taunted Dean, asking if he was sure what he brought back was 100% Sam - even then, the implication being that whatever Sam was now, it was Dean's fault for bringing him back. It was meant to hurt Dean, not denigrate Sam.

Edited October 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm trying to remember: has any villain, besides Azazel*, ever taunted Dean with Sam's failings? His demon-blood addiction, his God complex, his lies, etc, framed in a negative way? I.E, not that he was doing any/all of these things to save the world?  And in the event that it has happened, did Dean defend his brother (out loud, you know, with words)? Has Sam ever been put on trial, forced to defend his very existence?

*I recall that he taunted Dean, asking if he was sure what he brought back was 100% Sam - even then, the implication being that whatever Sam was now, it was Dean's fault for bringing him back.

I can't think of a time the show outright said Sam had a flaw.   Because his flaws are usually a result of others not accepting his actions, not the actions themselves.   I thought maybe with the whole Ruby/demon blood thing but that was swept under the rug with the whole "its your fault Dean."  Sam joining BMoL's was him realizing he should have lead all along.  Going into the cage maybe.  But we had a very special episode dedicated to telling us how awesome, and brave and special Sam was so of course he should into the cage.  The show certainly didn't frame it as wrong.  Then they threw Cas under the bus.    Sacrifice was another example.  it was all Dean's fault.  How dare Dean not trust Sam and have other people in his life. *

Even when Azazel, said it, it was linked to Dean.  I'm doing a s3 re watch and in Malleus Malificarum (sp?  I have no idea)  They have this conversation and Sam says that he is acting like Dean.

*I realize not everyone sees these events this way, I'm simply stating the way I saw them. 

[Jeddah]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

My. We sure do watch different shows.

I think I watch the same show as you! It’s a show I actually enjoy watching with multiple characters I like!

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I can't think of a time the show outright said Sam had a flaw.

I can. Lots of them. (Some examples below).

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm trying to remember: has any villain, besides Azazel*, ever taunted Dean with Sam's failings? His demon-blood addiction, his God complex, his lies, etc, framed in a negative way? I.E, not that he was doing any/all of these things to save the world?  And in the event that it has happened, did Dean defend his brother (out loud, you know, with words)? Has Sam ever been put on trial, forced to defend his very existence?

The only time I can recall a list of Sam's offences being read into the record without immediately being refuted is by Dean himself in 8x23, when he listed the things Sam could 'confess' to...

Not taunting Dean, but Dean was present: in "Sympathy For the Devil," the demon in Bobby listed off some of Sam's character flaws: that he was reckless, selfish, and arrogant. Dean said nothing (yes, he was rightfully angry at the time, but he still said nothing.) I'm not even sure reckless applies to Sam, but apparently according to the show it does (whereas when Dean is reckless, he's generally rewarded for it, in my opinion). This wasn't really refuted either. Bobby said later in the hospital that it was the demon talking, but immediately followed that up with "I wouldn't cut you out like that," not that the rest of the stuff the demon said was wrong.

Very next episode ("Good God, Y'All") the writers added another couple of flaws that didn't even make sense to me: Sam is supposedly War's poster child - I am assuming this meant that Sam is supposedly a violent person - and that he's addicted to blood, because he's consumed with wanting power over everybody. Sam's supposed protests were discounted by War saying that he could see inside Sam's head. So apparently we're supposed to believe Sam is power-hungry also.

In "Sam, interrupted" we learn from the real psychiatrist that Sam has rage issues. Sam agrees, and this is never refuted.

In "99 Problems" Sam is, of course, an abomination... which yes that was humorous, and I didn't mind it then. It wasn't until Sam's character flaws started being played as a joke often - in the Carver era - that that type of thing rankled a bit.

In "Point of No Return" Dean lists off a couple of Sam's flaws: Angry again and we add self-righteous to the list. There is also the strong implication that Sam is weak-willed. None of those are refuted.

The end of "Two Minutes to Midnight" is often cited as a Sam love fest, but this ignores the fact that along with Bobby's saying that Sam has good in him and has been trying since he was 12 and that he'll fight the devil or die trying, that Bobby also says that Sam is "ass-full of character defects" and that he has a "Darkness in him." Neither of those statements is refuted.

I'm sure there are more, but I gotta go, and I think that list is pretty hefty enough as is. The tone of Sam's flaws being pointed out changes later too, so it makes it a little more nebulous to describe. They are pointed out a lot in season 8, for example, but are often played for "laughs." (Even though I don't find it funny). "Sam hit a dog" becomes shorthand for Sam is a loser who doesn't take responsibility, and even Crowley is allowed to point this out (as if Crowley is any more reliable and less prone to bad behavior).

[MysteryGuest]

8 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I think I watch the same show as you! It’s a show I actually enjoy watching with multiple characters I like!

I think I'm in the same boat.  The writing could absolutely be better, and there are certainly times when they make the characters I've known for 14 seasons do things that they would never do or say, but I think that happens pretty evenly across the board.  I honestly don't see the one-sidedness others see.  And I'm a Dean fan.  I felt a bit cheated in the first few episodes because we didn't get any Dean and not very much Michael, but I'm happy he's now back.  I like watching Sam, Dean, Cas, Jack (when he's not too depressed), Mary (when she's not too distracted) and Bobby (though I wish it were still original recipe Bobby).  I like Rowena and even grew to like Ketch.  I like Jody and Donna, and I honestly don't even mind Claire.  Dino world Kaia was a big thread left hanging, so I'm interested in where they go with her character.  The only one I don't need to see on my screen anymore is Lucifer/Nick.  But I doubt I'll be that lucky.  

[DeeDee79]

13 hours ago, mertensia said:

My. We sure do watch different shows.

No, we just all have different perceptions of the same show which is normal. 

[ILoveReading]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can. Lots of them. (Some examples below).

Not taunting Dean, but Dean was present: in "Sympathy For the Devil," the demon in Bobby listed off some of Sam's character flaws: that he was reckless, selfish, and arrogant. Dean said nothing (yes, he was rightfully angry at the time, but he still said nothing.) I'm not even sure reckless applies to Sam, but apparently according to the show it does (whereas when Dean is reckless, he's generally rewarded for it, in my opinion). This wasn't really refuted either. Bobby said later in the hospital that it was the demon talking, but immediately followed that up with "I wouldn't cut you out like that," not that the rest of the stuff the demon said was wrong.

Very next episode ("Good God, Y'All") the writers added another couple of flaws that didn't even make sense to me: Sam is supposedly War's poster child - I am assuming this meant that Sam is supposedly a violent person - and that he's addicted to blood, because he's consumed with wanting power over everybody. Sam's supposed protests were discounted by War saying that he could see inside Sam's head. So apparently we're supposed to believe Sam is power-hungry also.

In "Sam, interrupted" we learn from the real psychiatrist that Sam has rage issues. Sam agrees, and this is never refuted.

In "99 Problems" Sam is, of course, an abomination... which yes that was humorous, and I didn't mind it then. It wasn't until Sam's character flaws started being played as a joke often - in the Carver era - that that type of thing rankled a bit.

In "Point of No Return" Dean lists off a couple of Sam's flaws: Angry again and we add self-righteous to the list. There is also the strong implication that Sam is weak-willed. None of those are refuted.

The end of "Two Minutes to Midnight" is often cited as a Sam love fest, but this ignores the fact that along with Bobby's saying that Sam has good in him and has been trying since he was 12 and that he'll fight the devil or die trying, that Bobby also says that Sam is "ass-full of character defects" and that he has a "Darkness in him." Neither of those statements is refuted.

I'm sure there are more, but I gotta go, and I think that list is pretty hefty enough as is. The tone of Sam's flaws being pointed out changes later too, so it makes it a little more nebulous to describe. They are pointed out a lot in season 8, for example, but are often played for "laughs." (Even though I don't find it funny). "Sam hit a dog" becomes shorthand for Sam is a loser who doesn't take responsibility, and even Crowley is allowed to point this out (as if Crowley is any more reliable and less prone to bad behavior).

As far as I'm concerned everything Sam did in s4 was whitewashed.  He wasn't reckless or arrogant, or ego driven. So even if there wasn't an charcter saying, no this isn't a fault, the narrative took care of that.  Dean was mean and didn't let Sam make his own decisions and treated him like a child.  Even though Dean did actually allow Sam to make his choices and Ruby played Sam like a fiddle, Sam had to get away from Dean.  That, IMO, was the single worst line in the history of the show.  Because it showed me that Sam will never really be held responsible.  There will always be a giant "but" attached.  That's exactly what happened.

Even if Bobby didn't' fully walk everything back, he still said "its the demon talking," implying that that Bobby doesn't really think those things.  That's a perfect example of "but"

  IMO, the show justified everything Sam did with Ruby when they white washed the demon blood drinking.  The fact that demon blood wasn't need to host an angel (which makes no sense) before or since it the textbook definition of whitewashing.   They even gave Ruby a justification when they said she was only getting Sam ready for Lucifer.

I feel like they were refuted when the Kripke said the point was for Dean to learn to love Sam more and learn to trust him and not treated him like a child. 

Sam with s8.  Authorial intent to me made it seem like we were supposed to side with Sam.  They just underestimated Jensen ability to make us feel sympathy for Dean.  Nothing Sam did in Citizen Fang was ever called out or mentioned on screen.  Dean gave Sam a choice between hunting or Amelia, Sam was like dump Benny or I'll dump you.  The narrative supported Sam here, and yet somehow Dean's the controlling one.  If we were meant to see it as flaws it would be mentioned on screen.  It wasn't.  It was ignored, but we actually had Charlie say that Dean ruined Sam's life.  Nothing was mentioned the other way around.

IMO, Dean was made the bad guy in s5.  I know we dont' see eye to eye on this and I'm not interesting in rehashing the debate,  Just saying why I don't see this as the show saying these are actual flaws.   Basically, its only Sam's fault because Dean made him to it in the first place.   It's like I said.  The show seems to view Sam's flaws as others not accepting his actions, not the actions themselves. 

I feel like Sam is rewarded for his mistakes.  Like with the Brits.  He followed them blindly and he got promoted into Dean's leadership role for it.  Sure, Sam has issues, but they arent' treated like flaws.

Edited October 31, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

This season feels like the writers mission is to break Dean, completely and for good.  They've stripped the last good characteristic off him and gave that to Chief.

Dean really has come full circle.  He was expected to be a mindless, flunkie and obey John's every order.   Now he's just going to end up a mindless flunkie and obey Sam's every order.  
It's not wonder Dean ended up like he did in The End.  It seems like his so-called family really thinks that he's dosen't matter, that he's weak and scared and just a bully.

Sam gets to learn he's stronger than he thinks and have everyone tell him what a great person and leader he is, even demons now cower in his wake, and mean while Dean gets to learn he really was a horrible person all along.   

Screw Dabb.  I loath him so much.

Edited October 31, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam gets to learn he's stronger than he thinks and have everyone tell him what a great person and leader he is, even demons now cower in his wake, and mean while Dean gets to learn he really was a horrible person all along.   

While Dean can't even frighten a tiny little TMNS, who calls him weak, scared and basically pathetic.

Seriously, whenever there is an argument in future about how Dabb* sees the two brothers, and wants us to see them, I will quote these two scenes.

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Screw Dabb.  I loath him so much.

*Amen.

*From this point on, when I type Dabb, just assume I mean Dabb, Singer and the koolaid-drinking writing team of his era.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seriously, whenever there is an argument in future about how Dabb* sees the two brothers, and wants us to see them, I will quote these two scenes.

Spoiler

Just wait until the 300th episode if they go with how people of the town see them.  Sam, the brave selfless hero, good-looking hero who helps little old ladies cross the street.  Dean, the boorish, town dunk, sloppy eater, rude guy who hits on college girls.

I really hope they don't go with that concept.  And have a different approach to the 300th ep.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

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Just wait until the 300th episode if they go with how people of the town see them.  Sam, the brave selfless hero, good-looking hero who helps little old ladies cross the street.  Dean, the boorish, town dunk, sloppy eater, rude guy who hits on college girls.

I really hope they don't go with that concept.  And have a different approach to the 300th ep.

Oh, but 'we' will know better - that's all Dean fans need. Anyone should know that Dean isn't really any of those things, it doesn't need to be said. And it doesn't matter if Show implies he's all those things, says it, shows it, over and over and over again. That's just how bad guys, 'semi-villains' see him. They just want to get under his skin. Dean's a great guy, a hero. Jeez, don't you remember that scene five seasons ago when Sam said so? And goddamnit, he was sorry Dean was murdered in S9. WTF more do you want?