“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

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So I think that message was not only clumsy, but annoying. Kind of - "oh, you liked Sam before? But he really wasn't being all he could be... This is what Sam really should be... please ignore everything you liked about him before, because that was just Sam being a wimp / taking the easy way out / hiding in Dean's shadow / whatever... If they intended to make Sam look better with that leadership scene, then that is actually part of the problem for me, because it is seemingly telling me that Sam wasn't really good enough before... which I think you can probably imagine my response to that.

I can totally understand that. While I love - and would love if it was actually acknowledged as something positive - Dean`s leadership traits, I`m personally not an alpha personality at all and, like you, I see nothing wrong with it. Characters don`t have to be leaders to be good and my favourite ones are not always the respective leaders in their shows. That really varies. So Sam not being a/the leader is not a point against his character to me.

Comparatively, I do think the character of Sam did come out looking pretty good in Season 12 overall whereas it was one of the weakest Seasons, if not the weakest ever for Dean. Sam had accumulated so many "strong" points in Season 12 and the BMOL thing was IMO retconned into something ultimately positive with the leadership moment that I don`t think the undertones of the clumsy set-up on how to get there tarnished him too much. 

But I am of course more focused on Dean and how he is treated and I found the "made to be weak" thing to be overabundant in Season 12. It only really got better in Season 13.B for me. 

I don`t know if the show ever really achieved balance between the two characters. Not in terms of storylines so much as Dean didn`t really have it until later but in terms of neither character coming out of it looking so much worse/better than the other. For me personally, I would say Seasons 1 and 2 but I don`t know if more Sam-leaning fans would agree? I could make a case for Season 4 but I do believe that is more contentious. Every Season since (and S3), I would say no to. 

[Katy M]

I love both of them, but in some seasons I love one more than the other.  I'm sure everyone will disagree vehemently with my list, but you may (or may not) find it interesting or different to your perspective.  So, I'll just go ahead and list them.  If you want reasoning, I'll provide.

 

SEason 1-Sam
Season 2-Sam
Season 3-equal
Season 4-Dean
Season 5-Dean
Season 6-first half Dean (really who could like soulless Sam), second half Sam.
Season 7-Sam
Season 8-Sam, and since I know everyone will throw stones on that one I will just say that I think Dean was being a little unreasonable about Sam not looking for him.  Not really a great season for Sam, either, though.
Season 9-They both got on my last nerve
Season 10-Dean
Season 11-equal
Season 12-This one is hard to call.  So, I guess equal
Season 13-Dean

So, season 14, will hopefully be equal so it can end in a tie:)

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t know if the show ever really achieved balance between the two characters. Not in terms of storylines so much as Dean didn`t really have it until later but in terms of neither character coming out of it looking so much worse/better than the other. For me personally, I would say Seasons 1 and 2 but I don`t know if more Sam-leaning fans would agree? I could make a case for Season 4 but I do believe that is more contentious. Every Season since (and S3), I would say no to. 

I can answer if you'd like... Since even though I do like Dean, I definitely lean Sam much of the time, so...

I agree with you on seasons 1 and 2.

Season 3 is weird in that regard. It depends on what someone means by "looking better," because it sort of switches off there for me. For me, Dean was a bit "rough" in the beginning in that - and unpopular opinion coming up, so sorry about this - I didn't quite think Jensen pulled off the subtlety needed not to make Dean look a bit jerky in the beginning of the season. By the end though, Sam was looking a bit self-involved, a bit unhinged, and morally questionable so for me it sort of balanced out in the end.

Season 4 - hee - I definitely disagree with you here. For me, Sam came off looking way worse. It could've been more balanced, but for me, the lack of Sam's point of view and the "intrigue" involved in the attempted shocking reveal moment insured that that didn't happen. Even the shocking reveal for Sam's storyline itself was buried in an episode that was more meant to show Dean in the more sympathetic light and showcase Dean's plight.

For me, I also would include seasons 6 and 7 and season 11 in there also, even though I know season 7 and 11 are likely contentious choices. I think a case could be made for season 10, too though actually for different reasons (in that both were actually making questionable decisions for understandable reasons.)

Perhaps interestingly even though we agree on some of the other seasons not being as balanced, we probably wouldn't always agree on which character came off looking better. Probably season 5 (Sam), but not seasons 8 or 9 where I would say that Dean came off looking way better.

[Aeryn13]

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Perhaps interestingly even though we agree on some of the other seasons not being as balanced, we probably wouldn't always agree on which character came off looking better. Probably season 5 (Sam), but not seasons 8 or 9 where I would say that Dean came off looking way better.

Heh, I guess our parameters even vary too wildly. When I say comes out looking better, I don`t neccessarily mean sympathetic or nice, I meant more comes out looking strong vs. weak over the Season overall. Which is why I count the likes of Soulless!Sam and MOC!Dean easily as the strong ones.

Season 1 being the obvious set-up Season IMO tried to make both characters look reasonably strong and interesting as protagonists of a new show. Early Season 2 Dean is basically my favourite Dean and while he didn`t remain that strong for the entire Season, I think it was a strong year overall for both characters. 

Season 3 was meh to me and despite having nominally a storyline, I think Dean didn`t get all that much in it. 

Loved Season 4 of course. Well, it looks lesser in hindsight of Season 5 but there is still something there. And while the Season had a lot of digs at supposedly weak-Dean, at the time I didn`t think those held any merit and Dean didn`t look weak in it to me. Sam on the one hand marched to the beat of Ruby`s dream and succumbed to demon blood but on the other had several strong scenes (to me) so he came out at least pretty balanced in my idea of "strong". 

Season 5 - terrible Season for Dean overall. IMO he was so diminished and the end was the coup de grace. Point to Sam.

Season 6 - iffy. Dean gets to look a bit stronger in the second half but the first one was a bust. I`d give that to Sam. 

Season 7 - equal insofar as both are terribly unimportant. Not a strong Season for either one.

Season 8 - Sam. Nanny!Dean during the trials pretty much disqualifies him from the word "strength" being mentioned along with his name for me. And Purgatory was over before it really began.

Season 9 - I`d count it as a strong-Dean Season, despite that only beginning in episode 11 but that half was really strong. 

Season 10 - Dean again for obvious reasons. 

Season 11 - Sam. I could have been equal story-wise but they really botched it  on Dean`s side.

Season 12 - Sam. This Season is even less one where Dean`s name and the word "strong" go in a sentence together. Holy hell was this his weakest turnout ever. 

Season 13 - Overall Dean but not by that much. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Heh, I guess our parameters even vary too wildly. When I say comes out looking better, I don`t neccessarily mean sympathetic or nice, I meant more comes out looking strong vs. weak over the Season overall. Which is why I count the likes of Soulless!Sam and MOC!Dean easily as the strong ones.

Hee, but for me even using your parameters, my evaluations likely wouldn't change much, since for me strength of character goes along with strength.

That's why season 4 wouldn't be equal to me. Much of Sam's "strength" as the writers showed it was to me actually born out of weakness. For example, I wouldn't call a person on PCP - no matter how physically strong they were on the drug - a "strong" person. As you said, Sam was being played by Ruby, and she was playing off his weaknesses - his feelings of failure and his need to show that he wasn't powerless - not his strengths. For a while there, Sam did seem to decide to beat his addiction, and that was a somewhat strong moment, but his rather unceremonious fall right back into the addiction - complete with vague reasoning by the show (meaning to me the writers didn't really care about showing Sam having a legitimate, understandable, or even sympathetic reason to fall off the wagon wagon so long as he fell off) - pretty much wiped that out in the end for me. The narrative even included supposedly "strong" Sam having to put down Dean in order to further the illusion that he, himself, was strong. For me that was intentional to show Sam as actually weak and delusional since it wasn't otherwise necessary for the story as a whole. And the fact that in the end, Sam didn't overcome his addiction and even embraced it, and his weaknesses lead to him raising Lucifer pretty much mean to me that in season 4, the writers were not trying to show Sam as strong at all and that came across to me clearly. In the end, Dean was the only non-evil character - and I mean only character - who stuck to his/her convictions all the way through and was shown to be right about those convictions. So definitely season 4 goes to Dean for me. It's not even close.

Season 6: Much like blood addicted Sam, I didn't see Soulless Sam as all that strong. Sure he was a killing machine, but it's easier to go out and kill things if you don't care about the consequences of your actions. I wouldn't exactly call that strong. In my opinion, it takes more strength - and this is where strength of character comes into it for me - to get the job done while actually caring about the people you are saving and making sure that saving them is the actual goal and not just an unexpected benefit. Interestingly to me, Soulless Sam showed some of the same delusions as Sam addicted to demon blood did.

When I'm including this as a strong Sam season, I'm actually more talking about what Sam did later in the season - not shirking responsibility for what Soulless Sam did, looking out for Dean's interests with respect to Castiel (because of course Dean wouldn't want to think Castiel was going behind his back), and once again embracing hunting and "making a difference" as a worthy goal and one that made him feel fulfilled. That - to me - was showing Sam's strength. Not what psychopath Soulless Sam did on his almost serial killer like killing spree. That regular Sam killed Soulless Sam in his dreamscape was the icing on the cake to cement this for me. In my opinion, of course Sam won. Sam had a purpose and a lot of reasons why he couldn't let Soulless Sam win there. He had conviction that Soulless Sam didn't. And one of those was that he wanted to be there to back Dean up in his fight against Castiel. This - this is my favorite Sam. The one who wants to back Dean up and knows that's where he's needed and that that is a worthy and fulfilling place to be. And this is one of the reasons I liked Gamble so much (and Kripke, too, since he wrote this episode, and so this is what I think he intended Sam to be in the end), and missed her so much later on in the series.

Similarly Dean was strong for me in season 6 because, like in season 4, he once again stuck to his convictions no matter what everyone else tried to throw at him... Bobby - in what was my opinion a weird writer choice to move along "plot" - Castiel, and Soulless Sam all tried to convince Dean in one way or another that he was maybe imagining things and there wasn't anything "wrong" with Sam. But Dean stuck to his convictions, and not only was he right in the end, but he once again fought opposition from Bobby, Castiel and eventually Soulless Sam to do the right thing and get Sam's soul back. Dean could have easily succumbed to the pressure and outside arguments from the others and taken an easier way out, but he didn't. He showed strength of character and got it done. And then in the second half of the season he showed other strengths of character - leadership, smarts, and conviction - to defeat Eve and try to talk down Castiel even though it hurt him to have to oppose his former friend.

Season 8: Whoo boy. Talk about a change. All of that strength of character I talked about above for season 6? Throw that right out the window. You mention Nanny!Dean as showing weakness, well as you argue for season 12 and Dean going along with Sam... what does it say about the guy who needs the nanny to take care of him? To me, it says he's too weak to even get the trials done that he said he was going to get done so he could show Dean the light at the end of the tunnel. Since nope, faced with the actual trials, Sam needs Dean to take care of him - except he's even pissy about that, trying to pretend that he doesn't need the help he so obviously does ...And in the end Sam falls apart and doesn't get it done, because all he - apparently - really wanted was Dean's approval: awwww... not. I'm sorry, but no strength of conviction means not a strong character portrayal for me... far from it*** At least Dean got to mostly keep his convictions, so this season goes to Dean for me as being portrayed as the stronger one... again, like season 4: no contest. Not even close.

I can't express how much I hate season 8.

*** And I really can't help thinking that this was Carver's intent, despite logic to the contrary. I can't help it since in my opinion the undermining of Sam's character was so heavy handed. (And having Sam - who previously was appalled at the though of pursuing engaged Ava - willfully sleep with a married woman appeared to be just one more vicious and intentional dig at Sam's character... again no strength of conviction. I mean why was that even done if they had no intention of Sam staying?) All the things that I liked about Sam above in season 6 were stripped away in one fell swoop. No Sam wanting to make a difference and being fulfilled doing that, no Sam backing Dean up or even appearing to like being with Dean, and no Sam having any convictions. Carver even threw out Sam's usual giving the monsters a chance and added this jealousy crap I don't remember seeing before in the series ever. I really didn't recognize this characterization of Sam at all. To make it worse, Carver threw out a lot of the stuff I liked about Dean, too, but at least Dean (mostly) got to keep his convictions and didn't willfully commit adultery and then leave the woman.

Season 11: I thought it was a pretty balanced season. The narrative might not have gone into the detail it could have in terms of Amara, but Dean got it done, and once again, he stuck to his guns to do so. Despite his understandable misgivings considering the obvious balance of power in Amara's direction, he - with one exception*** - never really gave up on fighting her hold on him, even when others questioned Dean's convictions (which I thought was out of character for the others and even contradicted what they'd said before, and so I think was partially there to highlight Dean's convictions). Dean didn't even back down when it came to God himself. He'd said he had issues and intended to give God a piece of his mind... and he did. So strong convictions and strength of character = strong Dean season for me.

*** Which for me wasn't really a sign of weakness. I've always contended that it is a strength to know your limitations rather than pretend or delude yourself into thinking you can do something and potentially cause problems later when you get yourself in over your head. It is one of the flaws of Sam's that most annoys me when Sam doesn't always understand his limitations... see season 4 and 8 as an example.

[Katy M]

41 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

*** Which for me wasn't really a sign of weakness. I've always contended that it is a strength to know your limitations rather than pretend or delude yourself into thinking you can do something and potentially cause problems later when you get yourself in over your head. It is one of the flaws of Sam's that most annoys me when Sam doesn't always understand his limitations... see season 4 and 8 as an example.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.  You say that Sam didn't understand his limitations in season 8, but you also said:

42 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

what does it say about the guy who needs the nanny to take care of him?

[Aeryn13]

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what does it say about the guy who needs the nanny to take care of him? To me, it says he's too weak to even get the trials done 

He got the first one done just fine, even saving Dean who couldn`t hack it, even after a year in Purgatory, wasn`t up to par on killing one hellhound. Then Sam got the second trial done also. His sickness always conveniently went away when it was time for an action scene so a little kill in Purgatory, snagging the Bobby-soul and he was on his way. Yes, he needed an assisst to get out of Purgatory but that had nothing to do with his health. Then he would have gotten the third trial done also. Even half-dead still physically fighting Abaddon. 

Dean provided nanny-ship in between the actual relevant action. You could say he worked the concession stand during intermission. Oh, how I loathe Season 8.B. Until Season 12 rolled around it was the longest stretch of unbearable show-time to me.   

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I can't express how much I hate season 8.

I liked a few things in the beginning but overall, yeah, Season 8 left a super-bad taste in my mouth. 

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Season 11: I thought it was a pretty balanced season. The narrative might not have gone into the detail it could have in terms of Amara, but Dean got it done, and once again, he stuck to his guns to do so. 

Despite how the Amara thing was underwritten, at least it was there. Ironically, in Season 11 it was actually the MOTW that was the weakest part for me. At least concerning Dean. I barely have good memories of the Season from those.  

I wonder if there is any one episode all kinds of fans, no matter their preferences actually agree on, either to like or dislike. Bloodlines maybe? It seems to be regarded as at best bland and forgettable. Maybe Devil`s Trap on the like category? But I`m not sure.  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He got the first one done just fine, even saving Dean who couldn`t hack it, even after a year in Purgatory, wasn`t up to par on killing one hellhound. Then Sam got the second trial done also. His sickness always conveniently went away when it was time for an action scene so a little kill in Purgatory, snagging the Bobby-soul and he was on his way. Yes, he needed an assisst to get out of Purgatory but that had nothing to do with his health. Then he would have gotten the third trial done also. Even half-dead still physically fighting Abaddon. 

Dean provided nanny-ship in between the actual relevant action. You could say he worked the concession stand during intermission. Oh, how I loathe Season 8.B. Until Season 12 rolled around it was the longest stretch of unbearable show-time to me.   

I liked a few things in the beginning but overall, yeah, Season 8 left a super-bad taste in my mouth. 

Despite how the Amara thing was underwritten, at least it was there. Ironically, in Season 11 it was actually the MOTW that was the weakest part for me. At least concerning Dean. I barely have good memories of the Season from those.  

I wonder if there is any one episode all kinds of fans, no matter their preferences actually agree on, either to like or dislike. Bloodlines maybe? It seems to be regarded as at best bland and forgettable. Maybe Devil`s Trap on the like category? But I`m not sure.  

I think In My Time of Dying ranks pretty high on mostly liked by most viewers. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.  You say that Sam didn't understand his limitations in season 8, but you also said:

Because that is one of the standards that @Aeryn13 uses to look at how a character is portrayed: whether or not they are portrayed as weak. So I was saying that if a character as nanny was considered by Aeryn as a "weak" portrayal, what would that mean for the character who needed the nanny? How would that character be being shown as any more "strong?"

But in addition to that, Sam tried to push Dean away in most cases, trying to assure that he could do it all on his own. I don't think that was the case, myself, since he at least needed help in the second trial and he didn't have the mental conviction to finish the last one. So when Sam started the trials - or at least insisted he was going on to the second one - I don't think he was considering his own limitations or considering that he might need help. And then even when he was having trouble, he hid his symptoms from Dean and tried to pretend that he was fine even though his compromised health had the potential to affect the outcome of the trials - so it was potentially a risky choice not to tell someone about his physical condition. For me this was an example of Sam not accepting and admitting his own potential limitations... or at the very least hiding his potential limitations that could have had negative results.

In contrast, Dean straight out admitted that Amara's influence over him might compromise his ability to kill her. He wasn't hiding it and just hoping that it might not be an issue that might compromise the mission later.

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then Sam got the second trial done also. His sickness always conveniently went away when it was time for an action scene so a little kill in Purgatory, snagging the Bobby-soul and he was on his way. Yes, he needed an assisst to get out of Purgatory but that had nothing to do with his health. Then he would have gotten the third trial done also. Even half-dead still physically fighting Abaddon. 

Actually if I remember correctly Benny not only told Sam how to get out, but first saved him from getting killed by a purgatory monster. Then later Benny held off more purgatory monsters while Sam escaped, so no Sam hadn't completed the trial by himself, in my opinion, and would've been killed in Purgatory - leaving Bobby's soul stranded there - if Dean hadn't sent Benny to help Sam.

As for the last trial, in my opinion Sam didn't have the mental conviction to finish it. The situation wasn't painted as Sam having second thoughts about what they were doing - like if it would be dangerous or something - so if Sam presumably should have still believed that finishing was the right thing to do. Instead Dean waved a shiny "rah rah of course you're my BFF" in front of Sam's face, and that was enough for Sam to cave. I don't blame Dean, because "save Sam" has generally been a thing for him and Dean stuck to his guns on that one. He wasn't willing to sacrifice Sam for closing the gates, and so he was gonna fight to make sure that didn't happen.

Sam - on the other hand - supposedly did think closing the gates was worth his death. Sam pretty much said as such. But being that this was season 8 "Kevin? Monsters? Ehn it's someone else's problem" Sam rather than season 6 or 7 Sam, when it came down to it... nope, no conviction on that one.*** He caved for a promise from Dean that Dean would always put him first. So nope... for me Sam was shown as the one who caved and failed to do what he said that he was going to do. Dean did do what he said he was going to do as soon as he found out that Sam would die, and his reasoning on that was sound. He was right. There was no having to save the world involved like in season 5, so in Dean's view, since Sam didn't need to die to save the world, screw it, this time Dean wasn't going to have Sam die.

I'm not going to fault Dean for sticking to his convictions. I'm more going to fault Sam for not sticking to his. And for me, that's what season 8 gave us. Man, for me Carver sucked as showrunner, especially in season 8. My opinion on that one. Others will vary.

*** (And in my opinion if Dean had done the trials, he would have finished them... which is why the writers didn't have Dean do the trials. It would have been wildly out of character for Dean not to finish. In my opinion it was fairly out of character for Sam too - as was most of season 8 - but the writers in general seem more willing to compromise Sam for plot purposes than Dean, so Sam it was.)

[Aeryn13]

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I'm not going to fault Dean for sticking to his convictions. 

I am. That entire speech in the Season 8 Finale was super-pathetic on his part. I cringed my way through it. Those are generally the episodes when I`m suffering so much second-hand embarassment, I can barely watch Dean. The Season 5 Finale, the Season 8 Finale, the werewolf episode and even kinda the Season 13 Finale. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

When TPTB watched the dailies they must've seen that it wasn't working on film. Why didn't they abandon the idea? Jensen said two days in the harness - so there must be loads of film on the cutting room floor.  Crikey! Hope it doesn't make it's way to the Gag Reel.  This is not something I want to laugh at.

At least we have lots of footage of Jensen's fights 'on the ground' to know he's a fight choreographer's dream.

Responding here because it most closely fits the category. Not B v J (since it has nothing to do with Sam), but the writer(s) definitely screwed Dean.

I'm not buying any excuses of 'too late' by the time they saw the dailies, etc. Jensen and Mark are both experienced stage fighters - I have zero doubt they could've got a terrific fight scene 'on the ground' within the confines of the shoot. Zero. And in my opinion, an experienced director and producer (and showrunner) like Singer should've seen it wasn't working as they were shooting it. Considering this, the finale of the season, was completely controlled by Dabb and Singer as writer, director, producers and co-show runners, I put the blame for it 100% on their shoulders. I honestly can't comprehend why they allowed that to make it to the air - at least not any reason that doesn't involve reasons more despicable than I want to believe.

I'd like to think they are going to make it up to Jensen with a terrific follow up/through vis a vis Michael!Dean, but I don't believe in that fairy tale any more.

[trxr4kids]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I honestly can't comprehend why they allowed that to make it to the air - at least not any reason that doesn't involve reasons more despicable than I want to believe.

I can't help but think that if that scene was the desired result that it falls under Singer's philosophy of "taking Dean down a few pegs", after all it was Dean in control. I just think it's pretty infuriating that Jensen speaks so highly of Singer and Singer seemingly doesn't give two shits if by "knocking Dean down a few pegs" it reflects poorly on Jensen as an actor who enjoys doing much of his own stuntwork.

On the other hand I've long thought that Jensen's high regard for Singer as a director is misplaced. It's quite possible, even likely, it wasn't intentional and just general incompetence, stubbornness* and laziness**. 

*This is what we planned, we're sticking with it.

** Eh, it's the finale, who cares what it looks like, they'll come back anyways.

[ILoveReading]

All I know is that since Dabb has taken over I get very bad Dark Angel vibes with regards to Dean. 

56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I honestly can't comprehend why they allowed that to make it to the air - at least not any reason that doesn't involve reasons more despicable than I want to believe.

It's also my understanding that the producers told Singer what he wanted was unfilmable. 

Singer and Dabb both strike me as petty little men.

I still wonder if Dabb is holding a grudge against Jensen for criticizing Bloodline. 

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I still wonder if Dabb is holding a grudge against Jensen for criticizing Bloodline. 

I missed that critique - do tell.

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

All I know is that since Dabb has taken over I get very bad Dark Angel vibes with regards to Dean. 

It's also my understanding that the producers told Singer what he wanted was unfilmable. 

Singer and Dabb both strike me as petty little men.

I still wonder if Dabb is holding a grudge against Jensen for criticizing Bloodline. 

Everyone criticized Bloodlines.  Dabb has never forgiven the fans for it either.  I wonder what "punishment" he has in store for us because of WS.

[trxr4kids]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I wonder what "punishment" he has in store for us because of WS.

A marionette fight! 

[Casseiopeia]

46 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

A marionette fight! 

Wait!!  I would love that!!

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Wait!!  I would love that!!

Weeel, according to Jensen we already had it.

ETA: I swear you posted the last question in the supernormal thread where he answered that.

Edited July 16, 2018 by trxr4kids

[Casseiopeia]

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Weeel, according to Jensen we already had it.

ETA: I swear you posted the last question in the supernormal thread where he answered that.

I did but I would love a whole episode with the cast as marionettes.  

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I missed that critique - do tell.

It wasnt' so much what he said but what he was trying not to say.  Plus his tone.  It's in the podcast he did with Winchester Brothers back in s9. 

The interview was such a treasure.  To be a fly on the wall to see the interviewer's reactions to some of Jensen's answers.  They're major Sam fans and they kept trying to goad him into talking about Sam.  But he was like, nope.  Dean Dean Dean.

[trxr4kids]

37 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I did but I would love a whole episode with the cast as marionettes.  

Ah, Like the Angel the series Smile Time episode, one of my all time favorites!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zUkT9YAPDY

Edited July 16, 2018 by trxr4kids
forgive the poor quality and subtitles it was the first link I saw and I was to lazy to look for more

[BabySpinach]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It wasnt' so much what he said but what he was trying not to say.  Plus his tone.  It's in the podcast he did with Winchester Brothers back in s9. 

The interview was such a treasure.  To be a fly on the wall to see the interviewer's reactions to some of Jensen's answers.  They're major Sam fans and they kept trying to goad him into talking about Sam.  But he was like, nope.  Dean Dean Dean.

That interview was wonderful. Frank and honest, barely any dancing around the point with fancy, cautious words. Jensen also showed that he put a lot of thought into Dean the character and talked about him as if he were a close friend, offering insight into how he would react to hypothetical situations or what he would do. Of course, my favorite part is when Jensen straight up half-joked, "Yeah, Sam is basically a selfish asshole" (this was right after The Purge had aired, so it felt earned rather than overly harsh, imo). He obviously has to be more diplomatic at cons and official interviews, but I love that we got to hear what was on his mind in all its unrefined, strongly-opinionated glory. I'm forever grateful that Jensen genuinely loves Dean and is probably the biggest fan out of all of us.

[Pondlass1]

14 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm forever grateful that Jensen genuinely loves Dean and is probably the biggest fan out of all of us.

If this were not the case - the show would never have lasted anywhere near this long.

Is this podcast still available?  

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

If this were not the case - the show would never have lasted anywhere near this long.

Is this podcast still available?  

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mediablvd/2014/03/07/winchester-radio-exclusive-interview-with-supernaturals-jensen-ackles

[auntvi]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not buying any excuses of 'too late' by the time they saw the dailies, etc. Jensen and Mark are both experienced stage fighters - I have zero doubt they could've got a terrific fight scene 'on the ground' within the confines of the shoot. Zero. And in my opinion, an experienced director and producer (and showrunner) like Singer should've seen it wasn't working as they were shooting it. Considering this, the finale of the season, was completely controlled by Dabb and Singer as writer, director, producers and co-show runners, I put the blame for it 100% on their shoulders. I honestly can't comprehend why they allowed that to make it to the air - at least not any reason that doesn't involve reasons more despicable than I want to believe.

As much as I complain about previous showrunners, I can't imagine any of them letting that scene make it to air. I don't think Singer or Dabb have any animus against Jensen or Mark, in fact they made Mark a regular to keep him there.

I think 1) they just don't give a shit, and 2) they aren't particularly good. CW/WB are perfectly happy to just let SPN keep going as long as possible, but they're not going to put any extra $$ into it. It's a gravy train for all concerned, so just put it on cruise control and let it go until it dies. This combination of Singer, Dabb and the Nepotism Duo is deadly - no spark and no vision. No ambitious, creative producer/writer is going to make his/her career from SPN at this point. So why should Singer care? He's not going to make more $$ for doing a good job.

[I'm feeling particularly negative at this point because I'm rewatching Fringe for the first time in a couple years. Even with the weirdo plot twists in the 4th & 5th seasons, the quality -- acting, production values, writing -- is head and shoulders above the last few years of SPN.]

Edited July 17, 2018 by auntvi
it deleted text and then mysteriously added it back in

[Aeryn13]

Quote

[I'm feeling particularly negative at this point because I'm rewatching Fringe for the first time in a couple years. Even with the weirdo plot twists in the 4th & 5th seasons, the quality -- acting, production values, writing -- is head and shoulders above the last few years of SPN.]

The Fringe writers were actually willing to try something to upset the status quo. Introduce the mirror verse, have half of your episodes play there, have real!Olivia there for half a Season, put fake one in the prime!verse. "Erase" Peter and not bring him back right away. Reboot basically the whole show in Season 5. They knew those things wouldn`t be popular with the fans, at least initially but they still gave them a whirl. 

SPN is deathly afraid to break out of the formula. They introduce grandesque ideas that supposedly shake up the status quo and landscape of the show and then never follow through. Which is why I have little hopes for Season 14.  

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mediablvd/2014/03/07/winchester-radio-exclusive-interview-with-supernaturals-jensen-ackles

Thanks for this! I'll give it a listen. I could spend hours just listening to Jensen read the phone book. Love his voice! :)

[BabySpinach]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Thanks for this! I'll give it a listen. I could spend hours just listening to Jensen read the phone book. Love his voice! :)

I'm re-listening to it right now and Jensen's comments that the show has always been (or used to be) kind of Sam-centric, and that Sam himself is (was) quite self-absorbed and takes it for granted that his big brother will deal with everything, made my jaw drop. It's the kind of thing that only ardent Dean girls tend to say. To hear it from one of the two main actors, who's clearly put a lot of thought and analysis into the show as a whole to form such an opinion, is pretty amazing.

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm re-listening to it right now and Jensen's comments that the show has always been (or used to be) kind of Sam-centric, and that Sam himself is (was) quite self-absorbed and takes it for granted that his big brother will deal with everything, made my jaw drop. It's the kind of thing that only ardent Dean girls tend to say. To hear it from one of the two main actors, who's clearly put a lot of thought and analysis into the show as a whole to form such an opinion, is pretty amazing.

I remember when this interview happened, too. It was great, especially coming on the heels of The Purge. I remember thinking that they seemed to me to be looking for some excuse for Sam's words in that episode from Jensen, too-and yes, the half-joke kind of silenced them on that for a bit. Heh.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I remember when this interview happened, too. It was great, especially coming on the heels of The Purge. I remember thinking that they seemed to me to be looking for some excuse for Sam's words in that episode from Jensen, too-and yes, the half-joke kind of silenced them on that for a bit. Heh.

Since it was only a podcast, the best part of the interview for me - knowing who the interviewers are and what kind of stuff they usually sprout - was imagining the utterly sour lemon faces at Jensen`s answers. And that because it was him, they couldn`t denigrate him for what he said. They couldn`t even not publish the interview. I expect they expected something quite different beforehand so that is what I call being hoisted by your own petard.    

[trxr4kids]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I remember thinking that they seemed to me to be looking for some excuse for Sam's words in that episode from Jensen, too-and yes, the half-joke kind of silenced them on that for a bit. Heh.

 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since it was only a podcast, the best part of the interview for me - knowing who the interviewers are and what kind of stuff they usually sprout - was imagining the utterly sour lemon faces at Jensen`s answers. And that because it was him, they couldn`t denigrate him for what he said.

Is that why there were awkward pauses and the follow up questions asked seemed stilted, almost as if they were prepared to ask a follow up based on the expected answer that never came? Also the breathing into the mike was grating enough to make me break 4 times.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Is that why there were awkward pauses and the follow up questions asked seemed stilted, almost as if they were prepared to ask a follow up based on the expected answer that never came? Also the breathing into the mike was grating enough to make me break 4 times.

 Whilst I think they may not have been prepared for his answers that seemed quite different than the status quo, I think being over the phone lead to some of the dead zone moments. Not all, but probably some.

[trxr4kids]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Whilst I think they may not have been prepared for his answers that seemed quite different than the status quo, I think being over the phone lead to some of the dead zone moments. Not all, but probably some.

That's a good point, I'm not familiar with their podcasts. I can't say I wanna be after listening to this though, there were too many, um okay, ha ha, and on another notes for my liking. I thoroughly enjoyed Jensen spinning gold from straw as per usual.

[DeeDee79]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 7:32 PM, ILoveReading said:

The interview was such a treasure.  To be a fly on the wall to see the interviewer's reactions to some of Jensen's answers.  They're major Sam fans and they kept trying to goad him into talking about Sam.  But he was like, nope.  Dean Dean Dean.

 

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I remember when this interview happened, too. It was great, especially coming on the heels of The Purge. I remember thinking that they seemed to me to be looking for some excuse for Sam's words in that episode from Jensen, too-and yes, the half-joke kind of silenced them on that for a bit. Heh.

 

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since it was only a podcast, the best part of the interview for me - knowing who the interviewers are and what kind of stuff they usually sprout - was imagining the utterly sour lemon faces at Jensen`s answers. And that because it was him, they couldn`t denigrate him for what he said. They couldn`t even not publish the interview. I expect they expected something quite different beforehand so that is what I call being hoisted by your own petard.    

Wow. I didn't listen but if the hosts are obviously Sam leaning I wonder why Jensen was the one that appeared on the show instead of Jared. Has Jared been on there as well or was Jensen just more willing to do the interview?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't believe for one second Lucifer is gone permanetly. 

Also Bobby will be back on a recurring basis. 

Buckner loves writing for Jack.

For me, this just define the problem with the writing/storytelling of Supernatural. With the loss of all the other writers (apart from Berens), what we have left are the two most influential - and her favourite character and actor to write for is not a Winchester. I'm guessing either her love influences Dabb/Singer, or its their hard-on for Pellegrino that influences her. Regardless, this isn't who I want writing for the show I want to see.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, this just define the problem with the writing/storytelling of Supernatural. With the loss of all the other writers (apart from Berens), what we have left are the two most influential - and her favourite character and actor to write for is not a Winchester. I'm guessing either her love influences Dabb/Singer, or its their hard-on for Pellegrino that influences her. Regardless, this isn't who I want writing for the show I want to see.

*sigh* As much as I love Dean at this point I wish that Jensen would just jump ship and go where his talents will be better appreciated. I'm so sick of this bullshit.

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

*sigh* As much as I love Dean at this point I wish that Jensen would just jump ship and go where his talents will be better appreciated. I'm so sick of this bullshit.

I agree 1000%. However, we know it won't happen because the end of this show affects many, many people. But I am looking forward to the time when I get to see Jensen in a movie/series that stretches his Ackting chops and gives him the opportunities he deserves instead of having the "top" writers of his current show prefer to write for a different character. How rude! (and this goes for Jared and Misha as well).

[Mulva]

"I don't think Dean believed for one minute that Michael would honour the 'deal',"

Dean seemed pretty shocked and angry over Michael's sudden, yet inevitable betrayal. 

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, Mulva said:

"I don't think Dean believed for one minute that Michael would honour the 'deal',"

Dean seemed pretty shocked and angry over Michael's sudden, yet inevitable betrayal. 

Angry, yes. Shocked? I don't think so.

[ILoveReading]

I wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I figure here was probably best just to be on the safe side.  Tagged for spoilers. 

 

Spoiler

With this obsession the writers have developed with pushing Sam to the fore front as the new leader, I have a bad feeling that once again the Michael storyline is going to be more about Sam than Dean.  That Michael is going to be so super duper impressed with Sam and his ability to lead during a crisis that he's going to make it his mission to convince Sam to lead his army.  That Michael pretends to leave Dean so he can work on getting Sam over to his side."  For 12 years, Dean has been the defacto leader.  I don't dispute that but now that it seems to be a major plot point the writers seems determined to force it on Sam."

[Myrelle]

Spoiler

My two greatest fears at the present time are 1) Dean's leadership role being handed over to Sam for good and Dean being shown as riddled with guilt to the degree that his hunting abilities will yet again become impaired and/or compromised thus making him weak and ineffective as a leader so much so that he can no longer perform that role even and especially in his own eyes so, of course, Sam will have to continue on in that role and yes, Dean himself might even eventually ask him to and, and Sam will of course gladly comply again instead of trying to help Dean regain that quality and 2) the Michael storyline in that Sam will "spare" Dean the pain of having to take on CagedMichael in order to defeat AUMichael-and this even with the knowledge that Dean is the Sword of both versions and would make either one stronger than the other by giving the one he chooses his True Vessel.

I'm spoiler tagging this just in case and I'll just add that the ink is now dry on the new contracts, so Singer/Dabb and co. once again are free to continue taking from Dean in order to give to Sam as they started to do in all of S12(IMO) and were only interrupted by at the end of S13 with those pesky contract talks.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

  Hide contents

My two greatest fears at the present time are 1) Dean's leadership role being handed over to Sam for good and Dean being shown as riddled with guilt to the degree that his hunting abilities will yet again become impaired and/or compromised thus making him weak and ineffective as a leader so much so that he can no longer perform that role even and especially in his own eyes so, of course, Sam will have to continue on in that role and yes, Dean himself might even eventually ask him to and, and Sam will of course gladly comply again instead of trying to help Dean regain that quality and 2) the Michael storyline in that Sam will "spare" Dean the pain of having to take on CagedMichael in order to defeat AUMichael-and this even with the knowledge that Dean is the Sword of both versions and would make either one stronger than the other by giving the one he chooses his True Vessel.

I'm spoiler tagging this just in case and I'll just add that the ink is now dry on the new contracts, so Singer/Dabb and co. once again are free to continue taking from Dean in order to give to Sam as they started to do in all of S12(IMO) and were only interrupted by at the end of S13 with those pesky contract talks.

I fully predict this is how it will pay out .  It will be hidden in a thinly veiled, Sam's strong, Dean's weak BM just like Trial and Error.

I loath Dabb so much.  He's the worst thing that ever happened to this show, and especially to Dean.   He'll probably take out Jensen's dislike of his Michael/Lucifer fight on Dean.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I fully predict this is how it will pay out .  It will be hidden in a thinly veiled, Sam's strong, Dean's weak BM just like Trial and Error.

I loath Dabb so much.  He's the worst thing that ever happened to this show, and especially to Dean.   He'll probably take out Jensen's dislike of his Michael/Lucifer fight on Dean.

And Love Hurts from S11-which I also believe Dabb had a lot of say in from ep.2 onward.

[Jonesy]

Kripke pulls another minor miracle--after TIMELESS has been cancelled for the second time...NBC just announced against all odds that the show gets a 2 hour series finale episode around the holidays.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

Kripke pulls another minor miracle--after TIMELESS has been cancelled for the second time...NBC just announced against all odds that the show gets a 2 hour series finale episode around the holidays.

Wow, that man really made quite the deal at the crossroads, didn't he? ;)

[ahrtee]

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wow, that man really made quite the deal at the crossroads, didn't he? ;)

Apparently not good enough, or the show wouldn't have been cancelled in the first place (or he might have been able to come up with a better show to start with....) :)

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Apparently not good enough, or the show wouldn't have been cancelled in the first place (or he might have been able to come up with a better show to start with....) :)

Thing is, I think it was/is a good show - opposed to Revolution, which was just another future-gone-wrong show for me. Timeless is actually a unique spin on time travel and on the whole was well crafted (again, IMO). I honestly don't know why it didn't get the ratings - but IMO it wasn't because they didn't deserve them. Honestly, I just don't wholly believe in Nielsen-style ratings and never have. I don't know why they don't just do away with them altogether now that they can digitally track literally every viewer on every platform. Spend the money perfecting that over a 'sample' audience, that's what I say.

Edited August 1, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

I found the leads in Timeless uninteresting and not much chemistry. I liked Rufus well enough and I tuned in for Misha's turn as Eliot Ness but I just found it really dull.  Not enough to keep my interest.  And I thought the male lead was a Poor Man's Dean Winchester and it actively annoyed me. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

 

Funny, that's what his scripts sound like to me all the time.

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Funny, that's what his scripts sound like to me all the time.

No wonder this show has gone down hill so quickly.  That tweet says it all.