S05.E02: The Convergence of the Twain

[hoosiermom]

Sorry for asking but is Sam Loomis a sheriff? Yes, I have been paying attention but apparently missed it.

[Lady Calypso]

46 minutes ago, hoosiermom said:

Sorry for asking but is Sam Loomis a sheriff? Yes, I have been paying attention but apparently missed it.

Not here, no. In this episode, during the double date scene, Sam's wife (I wish I remembered her name) said that he worked in real estate when he's not helping her in the hardware store. In the movie, Sam was just the hardware store owner while Marion Crane was the real estate developer, so it's either just a homage but it'll be how Sam and Marion met (again, assuming that she's still his lover). 

[Garden Wafers]

4 hours ago, ganesh said:

Romero v Norman seems to be the prime conflict for the final season. I think we're locked into movie canon with Romero, though I'm not super familiar with the movie, so it would make sense that he would be the last to go before the close of the series. 

I actually wonder if the final conflict will come down to Emma and Dylan versus Norman; in this case, Emma assumes the role of Lila Crane and Dylan assumes the role of movie Sam Loomis. Romero gets shifted back into the role of Arbogast. 

[pancake bacon]

On 3/1/2017 at 8:49 AM, Avaleigh said:

Also, what did Norma say to Dylan that Dylan can't get over? I remember her saying that Dylan was always jealous of Norman and her full on denial about Dylan trying to get her to see that Norman is dangerous, but I can't recall if she ordered him to stay away or if it's just something he decided to do because he felt that she'd severed the relationship.

During the exchange of Dylan telling Norma that she's never been a mother to him, Norma is duly chagrined, and pleads that she knows about Norman's situation and that essentially, she is covering up for what Norman has done. Even with all that, she still demands Audrey's earring from Dylan. For Dylan, a line was crossed, and that Norma will protect Norman to that extreme length. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by pancake bacon

[Virtual]

We were all pretty much waiting for someone to find out just how insane Norman has become, and Caleb and Chick both found out in this episode. Caleb already knew that Norman was dangerous from his encounter with "Mother" when Norman showed up at the King's Motel in Episode 2x04, and knew right away that it was Norman who killed Norma. Surely when Dylan finds out, he's going to know it was Norman's doing as well. Like Caleb, Dylan also knows how dangerous Norman is.

Speaking of Caleb, I'm actually hoping he makes it out of this alive, but it's not looking good for him right now. A lot of people don't like him because he raped Norma when they were young, and I thought he was going to be an unlikable monster on the show after his first couple of scenes (showing up at the auto mechanic's asking where the motel was, and when he first showed up at the motel), but he has proved himself to be the opposite of that since he appeared on the show. I really came around on him when he helped Dylan get the money for Emma's lung transplant.

But if it's not Caleb who informs Dylan about what's going on, I don't know how he will make his way back to White Pine Bay. We know he eventually does, since he's seen in the house talking to Norman in the season previews (and throwing him onto the Mercedes).

[smorbie]

Are you guys sure it's only been a year and a half?  Romero said he has two years to go and that he was serving a five-year term.  He also maintained he was railroaded on a trumped-up perjury charge, so I doubt he just pled guilty instead of going to trial.  Also, it seems like longer because Emma was planning to go to college and she and Dylan were going to be living with her dad.  So, it's seems like they've had a few years for them to marry, Dylan to settle well into his job, and the couple to buy a house together.

[peacheslatour]

On 3/1/2017 at 2:48 PM, ganesh said:

I thought the movie referenced a dead/missing sheriff?

It was a private detective hired by Marion Crane's employer.

[mj2000]

At this point, I think Caleb is as good as dead. He saw Norma 's corpse, Norman knocked him out, and he abused Norma resulting in Dylan being conceived. He's right at the top of "mother's" crap list. There is no way that "mother" is going to allow witnesses anyway. She is far too smart to allow that. 

Romero still makes me wish I was incarcerated along side him. Since I'm female, it's a long reaching wish :( On another note, I believe he will be Norman's undoing. Their confrontations are the best! He's a man on a revenge mission.

[BooBear]

15 hours ago, smorbie said:

Are you guys sure it's only been a year and a half?  Romero said he has two years to go and that he was serving a five-year term.  He also maintained he was railroaded on a trumped-up perjury charge, so I doubt he just pled guilty instead of going to trial.  Also, it seems like longer because Emma was planning to go to college and she and Dylan were going to be living with her dad.  So, it's seems like they've had a few years for them to marry, Dylan to settle well into his job, and the couple to buy a house together.

Time served pre trial can be applied to the total sentence. So Romero could have had his trial and sentence last month. And had it applied to his sentence. Also do we know Emma and Dylan own the house?

[smorbie]

Good point about the house.  After I posted I searched around on the interwebs, and you guys are right; it's been roughly two years.  But somehow, according to what I read, Norman is now about 22.  So that makes it a loooong two years seeing as how he was 18 last season.

 

BTW, what's the deal with Alex's hair?  I could not hate it more.  I'm not talking about the gray; I'm talking about the shaving above the ears and in back.

[KaveDweller]

Didn't Caleb mention that it had been a year-and-a-half since he'd seen Norma? Meaning she couldn't have been dead much longer than that.

[smorbie]

Yeah, but since it was Caleb, I figured time had just gotten away from him.

[Virtual]

I have to agree that the cards are stacked against Caleb at this point. It's more hope on my part that he makes it out.

Another thing that came completely to light in my mind after watching this episode is that Norman thought of himself as a burden to Norma, which is somewhat sad. Real Norma, aside from one outburst in Season 3, never said anything to Norman to allude to that. But his Mother hallucination (which we all know contains Norman's inner thoughts and how he perceived Norma) has been saying things that indicate this quite a bit in these first two episodes. Plus he told Dr. Edwards last season that he couldn't stand adding to the list of things that make Norma suffer.

[raven]

On 3/1/2017 at 0:06 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Very powerful to see Norman as Mother and reveal herself to Chick, all while Caleb discovered Norma's dead body and that could be one of the final images he sees before he dies. 

That was amazing.  "Holeee shit" indeed.

I would think Caleb is a goner but I don't know if Chick would just stand by, so maybe not right now?  But what else would Norman/Mother do with him?

Norman's creepy behavior on the date - complimenting and ogling the married woman - was really on point.  Love the subtle taunting of Sam, who was really kind of dumb to take his mistress to motel right on the outskirts of town.  I know he wasn't expecting to be socializing with the motel manager, but it seems kind of risky.

I thought that financially, Norma & Norman were struggling?  He seems to be doing ok - if Norma had a life insurance policy, maybe it paid out even though her death was ruled a suicide?  That's not automatically the case, I think most policies don't pay out for suicides. 

I thought the scene in the bathroom was interesting, when Norma asks Norman if he still likes her.  Somewhere inside him he knows his life is wrong, but he is too deep into his psychopathy to break out.

I thought seeing the full dog bowl in the messy house was sad - complete with Chick's picture window.   I'm very interested in what possible role Chick will play and how Romero will come back into the picture.

This is looking like a great final season!

[queenanne]

On 2/28/2017 at 0:32 AM, Evie said:

The grave was so creepy - the epitaph and Norman's shared plot.

Mother is smoking and learning French and climbing out restaurant windows. Of course. 

Yep, Caleb is a goner. Dylan's going to feel extra guilty, and then there are his suspicions that Norman killed Emma's mom that Emma knows nothing about. Trouble.

Technically isn't Norman learning French regardless of what he said, though?  As in, he's really sitting there being Norma?  I grant the only reason I think this, is because when Caleb cruised through the filthy kitchen, the same laptop was sitting there where "Norma" uses it, in the same spot right where Norman would be using it, so.  (Also, whatever kind of interesting pathology has led Norman to think that Norma would keep a kitchen in that state, when he looks at it.)

On 2/28/2017 at 10:27 AM, islandgal140 said:

I literally guffawed when Caleb walked into the kitchen and they showed the dog food bowl on the floor overflowing with food because of course Norman is feeding the imaginary dog. 

Which, in Norman's mind, one assumes "the dog is eating", so he just keeps piling food atop food!

On 2/28/2017 at 7:49 PM, Avaleigh said:

Also, what did Norma say to Dylan that Dylan can't get over? I remember her saying that Dylan was always jealous of Norman and her full on denial about Dylan trying to get her to see that Norman is dangerous, but I can't recall if she ordered him to stay away or if it's just something he decided to do because he felt that she'd severed the relationship.

I think it's just the fact that Dylan saw Audrey's earring thus knew that Norman is a murderer, coupled with Norma's reaction.  He knows he can't save them, nor turn things around.

On 3/1/2017 at 2:02 PM, seashell said:

Assuming Romero is destined for a bad end, that bad end better come at the very end of this series or I won't be watching anymore. For me the best part of this show was watching Vera and Nestor play off of each other and I really miss that now. I like Freddie but there's a limit to how much of Norman and dead Norma I'm willing to sit through.

Yeah, this was the first episode where I realized "I don't really care about the Norma/Norman of it all."  I don't know why. It just leaves me flat, probably because I've lost my sympathy for Norman since last season, and I can't get past the hurdle when I watch that "this is Norman's fantasy world".  (Though I did love, that when Norma dresses up to "pass for a man" in the men's room, one of she [or Norman] somehow thinks the appropriate attire, is a clearly female bell cloche hat.) 

On 3/2/2017 at 10:56 AM, Virtual Side said:

Speaking of Caleb, I'm actually hoping he makes it out of this alive, but it's not looking good for him right now. A lot of people don't like him because he raped Norma when they were young, and I thought he was going to be an unlikable monster on the show after his first couple of scenes (showing up at the auto mechanic's asking where the motel was, and when he first showed up at the motel), but he has proved himself to be the opposite of that since he appeared on the show. I really came around on him when he helped Dylan get the money for Emma's lung transplant.

I still don't like Caleb, and I suspect I never will.  To me Caleb is a narcissist - he almost assuredly was when he seduced Norma and he is one yet, IMO - and thus it's no surprise to me that he "likes" the genetic material he helped make.  It's also interesting they reminded us in this episode that no matter how diffident his speech patterns and mannerisms may be, he's got a temper, calling back to his pulping of Chick "back in the day".

Edited March 5, 2017 by queenanne

[Kimmel77]

Decent episode. Seems the producers are really ramping things up for an explosive ending.

[UncleChuck]

Quote

I still find it hard to believe that Dylan and Emma don't know when any random person in town knows. The fact that it made the local news and not one person reaches out to Emma? She'd lived in the town her entire life. What happened to her father, I can't recall. I just feel like they would have stumbled upon something via Facebook if nothing else. 

I can easily believe that Dylan and Emma had not heard about Norma.  White Pine Bay is just a little village, and that newspaper (White Pine Current) probably just comes out once a week or two.  I have lived in several small cities with a weekly newspaper and once I moved away I NEVER kept a subscription.  Anyway, Norma had very few (or no) friends in WPB, and she is just not the type of person that is the subject of conversation after a few days of curiosity immediately following her "suicide".  People who are barely aware of her existence while alive are not inclined to track down Dylan and Emily to share the news.  Once a few months or a year went by, poor Norma would be forgotten by everyone except Romero.

And social media is not guaranteed to help either.  Dylan and Emma are working very hard to start a new life away from Norman and Norma, and her circle of Facebook friends would just be her new circle of acquaintances like the folks who came to her party.   Lots of people use Facebook to share photos of a new kid, etc., without including lots of people from their past.  Caleb could find Dylan and Emma, but I would bet the farm that Norman/Mother did not have a profile and so there was no way to track them on FB.

[Peanut6711]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:33 PM, KaveDweller said:

I know some people don't have Facebook or they block people, I just think it is rare for people to totally cut themselves off like that. Because even if you ignore social media there's email and cell phones and communication is just easier these days. Emma's father owned a store in town, he must have sold that at some point and would have had some communication with someone there. 

It's not the most ridiculous plot point on the show by any means.

 I agree. And Caleb established they had Facebook when he arrived there; it's how he knew about the baby. Are we to assume Dylan/Emma unfriended anyone they knew from White Pine Bay and only accepted new Seattle friends??? While I don't think it's out of the question that Dylan/Emma haven't learned of Norma's passing yet, I do think there's a huge burden of suspension of disbelief and the writers were a little lazy/sloppy with this one. The plausibility gets worse with each episode.  At first I assumed Norman kept this very low key, but when that other motel clerk knew and knew some of the details, it did make it harder to believe that Dylan (who ran a huge drug business in town), Emma (who went to high school there), and her father (who ran a local business) all had no contact w/any other residents who might have mentioned it/simply offered condolences and inadvertently revealed it.  

On 3/1/2017 at 10:20 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Did they ever say for sure whether what happened between Caleb and Norma was rape or consensual?  I always thought the show left it open ended on purpose.  Both Caleb and Norma admitted the relationship started consensual but then Norma ended it.  Caleb's reaction and what happened after is what is under debate.  Again Caleb was older so you could again say that it was rape regardless but my assumption has always been the relationship was consensual until it wasn't.

That's largely my impression too. Lots of gray areas.  A very distinct "Flowers in the Attic" kind of vibe--they experienced a traumatic adolescence together and reacted unconventionally to it.   

On 3/1/2017 at 2:42 PM, ganesh said:

Romero v Norman seems to be the prime conflict for the final season. I think we're locked into movie canon with Romero, though I'm not super familiar with the movie, so it would make sense that he would be the last to go before the close of the series. 

Romero's character isn't in the movie, but there is a town sheriff (an older man) along with his wife. They both survive.

On 3/1/2017 at 3:45 PM, Dobian said:

I'm still predicting that the final scene of the series will be Marion Crane checking in at the motel, a smiling Norman handing her a room key.

Doubtful.

Spoiler

Per previews and one of the showrunners, "Marion" will be in multiple episodes.

On 3/1/2017 at 5:48 PM, ganesh said:

I thought the movie referenced a dead/missing sheriff?

You're thinking of Detective Arbogast. Always loved how the old sheriff over pronounced his name.  I'll surely be disappointed if he's not included and someone...anyone...doesn't say his name that way. ;-)  Maybe Romero will hire him in this scenario.

8 hours ago, queenanne said:

I still don't like Caleb, and I suspect I never will.  To me Caleb is a narcissist - he almost assuredly was when he seduced Norma and he is one yet, IMO - and thus it's no surprise to me that he "likes" the genetic material he helped make.  It's also interesting they reminded us in this episode that no matter how diffident his speech patterns and mannerisms may be, he's got a temper, calling back to his pulping of Chick "back in the day".

A narcissist is someone who thinks the word revolves around them and constantly wishes to be admired.  I can't say I've ever gotten that vibe from Caleb. Norma, at times. But not her brother.  However, I do think their upbringing had many negative consequences on their lives.  They had a hard home life and were surrounded by abuse.  No doubt Caleb absorbed some of that into his subconscious.  It's part of why he doesn't fully grasp the inappropriateness of his past relationship w/Norma. I also get the feeling that Caleb is uneducated and unperceptive.  I don't believe Caleb seduced Norma as much as they turned to each other at a time and age of great confusion and isolation.  Of course, he'd like Dylan--it's his son.  I don't think it's an ego thing at all. It's a family thing, just like with Norma. Caleb grew up w/out love and he still seeks it from those he's related too. He craves love and belonging, not attention and praise.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Peanut6711

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Peanut6711 said:

Are we to assume Dylan/Emma unfriended anyone they knew from White Pine Bay and only accepted new Seattle friends??? While I don't think it's out of the question that Dylan/Emma haven't learned of Norma's passing yet, I do think there's a huge burden of suspension of disbelief and the writers were a little lazy/sloppy with this one.

It's a huge burden of suspension of disbelief that Dylan doesn't have FB and Emma cut ties with WPB? The main character dresses up as his mother, whom he already murdered, keeps mummified in his basement, and kills people. 

It's actually more of "burden of disbelief" that Emma didn't limit her profile to just friends such that Caleb finding them on FB actually happened. 

[truthaboutluv]

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

It's actually more of "burden of disbelief" that Emma didn't limit her profile to just friends such that Caleb finding them on FB actually happened. 

This. I guess it's because I know how easily I have lost touch with people, even with being on social media, that I just don't find this that strange or hard to believe. Again, when we first met Dylan, he didn't know Norman's father had died and that he and Norma had moved to White Pine Bay. So I don't find it so hard to believe that after making the conscious decision to cut Norma and Norman out of his life, he has no clue about Norma being dead. As someone else noted, what friends did Emma really have in White Pine Bay? As I recall it, that was one of the reasons she gravitated towards Norman when he first moved there. And with her father coming along with her and Dylan, she really had no ties anymore to the town. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Evie]

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

It's a huge burden of suspension of disbelief that Dylan doesn't have FB and Emma cut ties with WPB? The main character dresses up as his mother, whom he already murdered, keeps mummified in his basement, and kills people. 

It's actually more of "burden of disbelief" that Emma didn't limit her profile to just friends such that Caleb finding them on FB actually happened. 

Yes.

Emma and Dylan not knowing Norma is dead doesn't require much suspension of disbelief on my part, but even if it did, it's nothing compared to the suspension of belief that Norman dresses up as Mother and keeps dead Norma in the basement or that scrawny Norman can kill a grown man and drag his body all over the place.

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, Evie said:

Yes.

Emma and Dylan not knowing Norma is dead doesn't require much suspension of disbelief on my part, but even if it did, it's nothing compared to the suspension of belief that Norman dresses up as Mother and keeps dead Norma in the basement or that scrawny Norman can kill a grown man and drag his body all over the place.

Sometimes it's the simple things that ruin the most complicated stories.

[Peanut6711]

14 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Sometimes it's the simple things that ruin the most complicated stories.

This is very true. 

23 hours ago, Evie said:

Emma and Dylan not knowing Norma is dead doesn't require much suspension of disbelief on my part, but even if it did, it's nothing compared to the suspension of belief that Norman dresses up as Mother and keeps dead Norma in the basement or that scrawny Norman can kill a grown man and drag his body all over the place.

Suspension of disbelief is defined as "a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment."

Norman dressing up as mother and killing people is an actual psychosis, a mental illness. That's real thing, not unbelievable. Thankfully most people don't see it every day, but it does exist in the real world.  There's no suspension of disbelief for me there.   However, I agree the technicalities of how Norman completes these murders and takes care of the body disposal being a rather scrawny young guy all on his own does require some suspension of disbelief at times.  I'm still confused how the murder of the hitman sent by Romero played out since Mother did not really appear in the doorway to warn him. 

[Stringey]

15 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

This is very true. 

Suspension of disbelief is defined as "a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment."

Norman dressing up as mother and killing people is an actual psychosis, a mental illness. That's real thing, not unbelievable. Thankfully most people don't see it every day, but it does exist in the real world.  There's no suspension of disbelief for me there.   However, I agree the technicalities of how Norman completes these murders and takes care of the body disposal being a rather scrawny young guy all on his own does require some suspension of disbelief at times.  I'm still confused how the murder of the hitman sent by Romero played out since Mother did not really appear in the doorway to warn him. 

Well Norman is lean but I would not say scrawny anymore.  If you mean he is scrawny compared to some muscle bound guy then I see what you mean. 

[Nanrad]

Honestly, it's not that much of a suspension of belief for me. 

WPB isn't a quiet, small time. It's a small town with a lot of crime that had several shoot outs, I believe, and murders. Then the question remains is suicide uncommon? Regardless, there would be chatter about a suicide, but it wouldn't be this huge thing, especially not bigger than Romero going to jail considering the role he played with the drug trade. I honestly don't see people talking about Norma on FB that much. If I found out my classmate's mom committed suicide, I wouldn't mention it. It's sad, but not noteworthy to talk about on my TL. And, I would only reach out if I was actually a friend with that person, which leads to: Emma may have been friendly with other people, but her only real friend was Norman. S/N: FB was a thing back in 2008 and when my father died, which many of my classmates knew about, they didn't talk about it on FB. This also depends on HOW Emma uses FB as well. Is she an everyday user? Does she only post important life events? Does she check in every once and a while?

And what true ties did Dylan have to WPB besides Norma and Norman? Norma said she'll always protect Norman no matter what, and then Norman lied about Norma wanting to cut ties. Besides that one guy he started out with in the drug trade, Dylan didn't have people he talked to. Their only connection would be Emma's father and he moved to Seattle as well. That is the best possibility of Norma's death being passed to him IF Emma's father maintained his ties in WPB.

IMO, it's honestly not that unbelievable. Although totally not the same, when I came in town for two weeks, which my siblings, mother, aunt, and uncle ALL knew about, they NEVER told anyone else in our family, despite the fact that I know they spoke with the other members a few times while I was there. Like, the other family members didn't know until the day I left and only because I dropped by. That seemed impossible to me, but it happened, so in addition to my initial comment, this is the other reason why I believe it is possible.

[halkatla]

This show keeps blowing my mind with it´s awesomeness. It scares me that I love Norman, dead Norma and Chick. This show deserves more praise, it´s kind of perfect. I would hardly change a thing, the story they are crafting is scary, weird, fun and epic. I hope season 5 remains this good throughout. I see it like this, it will take someone huge to bring down Norman, I suppose (and hope) that´s Romero, and not Emma or Dylan. Caleb doesn´t have a chance, and I guess there will be others. I also love the love interest.