S12.E13: Family Feud

[Myrelle]

I just watched because the word out there is that the episode was either boring or innocuous-which I can handle if it means I get to see The Ackting and he didn't disappoint in that regard. As a matter of fact, it was another one that goes into his save column for me, but this time he only saved it by making it watchable as opposed to completely unwatchable(AKA yes, skippable) because the writing was atrocious, ludicrous, and ridiculous, and it made Crowley out to be more moronic than even Sam last season, for believing that God was talking to him and not even entertaining the idea that it could be anyone else. How the hell would putting him back in the cage not be revenge enough? I guess he just wanted him to have to lick the floor. Fine. Then put him in the cage now, Moron.  I like Mark Sheppard, but not when he yells. Not at all. And who is he to be calling the Winchesters morons while simultaneously being responsible for the most moronic stunt to date on this show. Eh. Whatever. Typical of a Lemming/Buckner script. I can't stand Lucifer in any form on this show. Not one actor has overly impressed me in that role and it's so old and moldy and stale now. I just want him and his baby mama drama storyline to be gone.

The actress who played Dagon was laughably bad, IMO, and this even while she parroted the Winchesters' view of what makes a "monster" evil, while also likely plotting Kelly's demise as soon as the "little devil" is born.

And don't even get me started on Mary Sue Winchester. She needs to go, too. Like yesterday. What a fool. And she still thinks she's working with the Brits and not for them. <insert eye roll here> I hate that they're having her trying to act all "motherly" when she's with them, too. As others have mentioned, she hasn't actually been with them enough to have earned that right. I CAN, however, recognize that "the That Face" scene was one of the few bright spots in this one. But again, too bad that it didn't feel earned.

Ah well. Again, at least there was the Ackting. I loved how Jensen played Dean in that scene with Mary. He looked so weary at one point and when he let his guard down for just that one moment; and this in a scene that highlighted those infamous walls of his, more than anything else. The smile that never even comes close to touching his eyes. His body language. The episode was just meh to me, but well worth it for the Dean scenes(and nothing in there that would make my head explode with anger this week).

I even actually kind of liked the hunt and all of the characters involved in that, even Rowena reminding Crowley of Oscar but I could wish that Ruth had played it a little colder with less obvious hatred. Mark Sheppard did do a nice job there trying to garner sympathy for his character, and I'm sure it worked on some. But he's still Crowley to me and whatever sadness or heartache comes his way is really only just rightful payback for the sadness and heartache that he's caused for others since he sold his soul for those few extra inches. That's the downside of being a demon. Sympathy/empathy is hard to come by from most mainly because of the job description. I also liked Rowena adding in that aside from the revenge aspect, allowing Gavin to sacrifice himself was also the right thing to do, because it was, IMO also. It's likely foreshadowing for the Mary storyline, IMO, which I could hope that it's not, but the angst is the thing and I'm sure they will go for that with Mary and the brothers by the end of the season. They've gone there already to a degree in some of the previous episodes and the attempted parallel was only made more blatant and anvil-like with Gavin stating that he felt that he didn't belong to/in the 21st century anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Stop saying to forget it. 

I wasn't telling you to forget it, I was saying I had forgotten I had promised myself I wasn't getting into debates about time travel. It never ends well. Plus, with this episode, it's just not worth it, IMO. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't telling you to forget it, I was saying I had forgotten I had promised myself I wasn't getting into debates about time travel. It never ends well. Plus, with this episode, it's just not worth it, IMO. 

I understood you weren't saying it to me, I just thought you were downplaying that your opinion didn't matter.  I feel the same way about time travel debates.  No TV show or movie ever accounts for everything.  I think, oddly enough since it's mostly comedy as opposed to sci-fi, Back to the Future probably did the best job of trying to account for everything and keeping all the timeline stuff straight.  "You're thinking three-dimensionally again, Marty."

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean was wearing a new tie and jacket. I don't remember a grey striped tie. 

He was. I noticed that, too. And that Jensen was Beyond Beautiful in this entire episode. Who directed this one?

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't like the toys. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first scene with Mary was a weird mixture of Sue-ing her up and showing how pathetic she is, performing like a trained little lab rat for her master with the stopwatch. And then he kisses her ass so much, it gave me second-hand-embarassment to watch. Yet the most bold-faced lie comes when he accuses her of being too soft with her kids. And she needs to "disengage" herself from them. Like some MORE? She hardly ever sees them and she has no way, shape or form shown mommy softness to them. This was such a ludicrous statement even from the BMOL.

With the exception of the grenade launcher(which is a real weapon that they better let Dean use also, by the end of this season), I HATE! the toys. And ITA with Aeryn's take on those two scenes with Mary and Mr. Ketch and I even felt the same second-hand embarrassment for the character, too. Those scenes were overall awful, completely cringe worthy, and only made to be skipped over on any re-watch for me.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought Sam was just worried about Mary taking it the wrong way.

Take it the wrong way how? Dean wasnt joking. Dean was directly expressing his dismay with Mary's distance with a crapton of shade. It ws played for a laugh but Dean wasn't kidding either. IMO, Sam didn't want  Mary to be upset so  he shut Dean down. Maybe he should just let Dean be pissed off if Dean  wants to be pissed off.

Maybe Sam feared a fight like he used to have with John when Dean ws in the middle. But Dean generally didn't step in until they were about to come to blows. I hope Sam wouldn't be worried about Dean and  Mary coming to blows. I mean Dean is not going to punch his mom no matter how mad he gets.

It's just for me it was kind of a shitty line for Sam to say about Dean. So now Deans rightful aggravation with Mary is "dramatic"? Dumb line is dumb.

[Wayward Son]

I wish the writers had specified how much time has past between episodes. I assume at least several months based on the repeated mentions of how long it's been since they saw Mary. 

If it has indeed been months Dean had every right to say what he did and Sam shouldn't have shut him down. If it's been something minor like a few days then yeah that's overly dramatic. 

[Myrelle]

I highly doubt that it was a few days. I think Sam is taking on the role that Dean used to take on often when Sam and John interacted. These writers DO still love and employ the role reversal thing. They've been employing it consistently from S2 onward. It's Easy Writing 101 and just their style.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I highly doubt that it was a few days. I think Sam is taking on the role that Dean used to take on often when Sam and John interacted. These writers DO still love and employ the role reversal thing. They've been employing it consistently from S2 onward. It's Easy Writing 101 and just their style.

Yeah, I highly doubt it either. It's just not like Dean to be overly dramatic over nothing especially when she has been away from them all season. That is why, until they tell us otherwise, my head canon is it has been at least two months since the last episode.

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He was. I noticed that, too. And that Jensen was Beyond Beautiful in this entire episode. Who directed this one?

P.J. Pesce directed it, who previously directed a couple "damned" episodes: King of the Damned and Book of the Damned.

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I wish the writers had specified how much time has past between episodes. I assume at least several months based on the repeated mentions of how long it's been since they saw Mary. 

Did he say it had been a long time since they saw her or was he just commenting on how long it had been since she came "home" to the bunker?

Edited February 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[bethy]

I so hope that Mary isn't able to convince the boys to her side on the BMoL. I don't even care if she has "good" reasons. It's the principle of the thing for me at this point, which is probably stupid. 

I hated that when Dean said, "Where does that leave us?" Mary's response was "Family." What? How are you even family to these guys, woman? You don't treat them like your kids unless it's convenient/useful to you. You don't seem to care to get to know who they are or what their lives have been like? You're a lying liar who lies, and I don't think you should get to try to play the "family" card. Blech.

Also, given how little time Mary has spent with Dean, how does she even know "the Face"? Shut up, Mary.

I do hope that we get to see some sort of emotional reaction from both boys about what a horrible person she's being. The look on Sam's face when he said, "...broken ribs and burned feet" was heartbreaking. Like even still he didn't want to risk pushing her away BY MENTIONING THE TORTURE HE'D ENDURED AT THE HANDS OF HER FRIENDS. Her complete lack of response was infuriating. 

Ugh. I don't think they're going to be able to rehabilitate Mary for me at this point. I really don't think they are. 

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam didn't want  Mary to be upset so  he shut Dean down. Maybe he should just let Dean be pissed off if Dean  wants to be pissed off.

I agree that Sam didn't want Mary to be upset, so he shut Dean down. But I didn't take it as a dig at Dean or aggressive toward Dean or anything. I think Sam was happy that Mary was there and was worried that they'd scare her off or make it so she wouldn't want to come back again if they weren't super nice to her. Sam's been on eggshells around her and this was just more of that IMO.

Gosh, I feel so bad for Sam. This lady is going to break his heart. He keeps trying to make himself OK with whatever she does. He's going to end up pretzeling  himself into a knot that he won't be able to untangle doing that. When I was in that kind of situation ("that kind of situation" emotionally, obviously the logistics were very different ;) ) with my mother, I literally told myself that I didn't have the luxury of having feelings anymore, some people just didn't, and consciously shut down anything and everything I felt. It was a bad mistake in terms of the long-term consequences, but it also got me through. I'm like, Sam, jeez, please don't do that. Try to find a way to lean on your brother or SOMETHING. I wish that we got more insight into what Dean and Sam are thinking about *each other* and their individual reactions toward Mary.

What does Dean think about Sam's reactions to her and vice versa? Do they ever talk about that? I'm OK not seeing yet more of the conversation where Mary tries to convince her sons that it's OK that she's working with the BMOL, but I really really want to see Sam and Dean's conversation with each other about how they feel about it (not that they necessarily would have one, but these guys usually do talk about that kind of stuff, so I think it would be in-character if they did). Maybe that conversation will come in the next episode.

[bethy]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

What does Dean think about Sam's reactions to her and vice versa? Do they ever talk about that? I'm OK not seeing yet more of the conversation where Mary tries to convince her sons that it's OK that she's working with the BMOL, but I really really want to see Sam and Dean's conversation with each other about how they feel about it (not that they necessarily would have one, but these guys usually do talk about that kind of stuff, so I think it would be in-character if they did). Maybe that conversation will come in the next episode.

I would LOVE to see this scene.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah, I highly doubt it either. It's just not like Dean to be overly dramatic over nothing especially when she has been away from them all season. That is why, until they tell us otherwise, my head canon is it has been at least two months since the last episode.

If we go by Devil Baby Mama's devil baby bump then  DBM(devil baby mama)oops to be around what 3 to 4 months? I'm guessing at least 3 months since the boys escaped the prison and that was 6 weeks ago. she looks to be around 4 months along unless we find out DB(devil  Baby) gestates faster or slower. Then it's been at least one month since they were rescued. They went on a couple of hunts, Dean lost his memory for a couple of days and then Mary had the ops to get th colt . so I'm thinking Mary hasn't spent any time at the bunker for at least a month or more.

Edited February 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I hated that when Dean said, "Where does that leave us?" Mary's response was "Family." 

That was such a cop-out. She knows it`s the "magic" word and she damn well knows they and Dean especially have a different definition of it. So more defensive bullshit. 

Just because Dean`s instincts turned out to be right and he was more prepared for the betrayal and angry about it doesn`t mean it`s not hurting him fiercely. `She is his mother, someone who kept him going during childhood and later on, he sure didn`t want to be right about her. So Mary can cram her self-serving attitude. 

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

I hated that when Dean said, "Where does that leave us?" Mary's response was "Family." What? How are you even family to these guys, woman? You don't treat them like your kids unless it's convenient/useful to you. You don't seem to care to get to know who they are or what their lives have been like? You're a lying liar who lies, and I don't think you should get to try to play the "family" card. Blech.

Also, given how little time Mary has spent with Dean, how does she even know "the Face"? Shut up, Mary.

 

I didn't like the "we're family" reasoning either, but for a different reason.  Being family, or friends, or whatever, doesn't mean that you have to support everything and join everything that they do.  I wouldn't be doig what Mary's doing, but for the sake of argument, if I were her, and Dean had asked me that, I would have responded that was up to them.  If they wanted to join me with the BMOLs, that was fine.  If they didn't that was fine also.  If they were OK with me working the occasional hunting job with them without the BMOLs that would also be fine.

But, because I don't think family needs to do everything together, I did think Dean was a little snarky.  Mary has her life. They have theirs.  I get that they missed out on a childhood with her, but that was then and this is now.  They are grown adults who don't even really know her.  Getting to know each other from a distance, while not Dean's or probably Sam's first choice, is a valid choice.

But, I totally agree that Mary would have know way what "the face" was, unless John used to make the same face.  That's always a possibility.

[Myrelle]

45 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Gosh, I feel so bad for Sam. This lady is going to break his heart. He keeps trying to make himself OK with whatever she does. He's going to end up pretzeling  himself into a knot that he won't be able to untangle doing that.

Like Dean did with dad. And THAT is what I'd love to see pointed out by Dean to Sam.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Like Dean did with dad.

Yeah, I agree. I think that's why he's got such a good handle on what's up with Mary right now, and on dealing with his feelings toward her. This isn't his first rodeo. Also why I want to know what he thinks about what's going on with Sam wrt Mary.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rue721

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

P.J. Pesce directed it, who previously directed a couple "damned" episodes: King of the Damned and Book of the Damned.

Thank you! :-)

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

P.J. Pesce directed it, who previously directed a couple "damned" episodes: King of the Damned and Book of the Damned.

Did he say it had been a long time since they saw her or was he just commenting on how long it had been since she came "home" to the bunker?

I just put the episode on to make sure I remembered correctly and his exact words were:

"Well, well, well, it has been a while, a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, while". 

He doesn't specify that it's been a while since she visited the bunker, which is why I took it to mean that it has been a while since they last saw her. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, I agree. I think that's why he's got such a good handle on what's up with Mary right now, and on dealing with his feelings toward her. This isn't his first rodeo. Also why I want to know what he thinks about what's going on with Sam wrt Mary.

Since he's been there, I think he knows what's going on with Sam. His silence in the scene at the beginning pretty much said it all to me.

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I just put the episode on to make sure I remembered correctly and his exact words were:

"Well, well, well, it has been a while, a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, while". 

He doesn't specify that it's been a while since she visited the bunker, which is why I took it to mean that it has been a while since they last saw her. 

I took it more as, it's been a long time since you've made an effort... . But, I'm weird that way.

[rue721]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Since he's been there, I think he knows what's going on with Sam. His silence in the scene at the beginning pretty much said it all to me.

Oh yeah, he knows what's going with Sam. That's what I'm saying, I want to see them talk about it. Because I think *Sam* doesn't know that Dean knows what's going with Sam...and in general, I would like to hear Dean's take.

[bethy]

Wasn't the reason Mary gave for not joining them on the hunt something to do with resting up because she was recovering from Ramaliel or whatever his name was? 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, rue721 said:

ee that Sam didn't want Mary to be upset, so he shut Dean down. But I didn't take it as a dig at Dean or aggressive toward Dean or anything. I think Sam was happy that Mary was there and was worried that they'd scare her off or make it so she wouldn't want to come back again if they weren't super nice to her. Sam's been on eggshells around her and this was just more of that IMO.

How is it not  a dig at Dean either from Sam or the writers?

If not a dig, it's once more that Dean is being chided by someone, that he should not be upset or he's not expressing it in the "right" way.

How easy to have Sam say something like "each Come on Dean, , it's not been a long, long, long, loonnng time just... a long time " he shrugs with a little eye roll and a dollop of Sams bitchface and Dean giving his funny shrug face.

It doesn't minimize Deans reactions as "drama". It allows Sam to look less like a Pollyanna and that he realizes she's been gone for longer than either prefer. YMMV
.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Oh yeah, he knows what's going with Sam. That's what I'm saying, I want to see them talk about it. Because I think *Sam* doesn't know that Dean knows what's going with Sam...and in general, I would like to hear Dean's take.

I'm not sure Sam was ready to hear Dean's talk right then. And, it could be that Sam still isn't, even after Mary told them the truth? I mean, I think he's pretty well entrenched in some positive--and possibly delusional--thinking right now. Sam just wants to believe in this one thing, that it's all gonna be fine, and I think Dean is trying to not take that away from him. 

[sarthaz]

Hmmm ... a ghost?  We could salt and burn the locket ... or ... time travel.  You're just 30 seconds away from an all new Riverdale.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, bethy said:

Also, given how little time Mary has spent with Dean, how does she even know "the Face"? Shut up, Mary.

That reminds me of Mary playing the" because I'm your mom " card in the first couple of episodes. She used it because it got her what she  wanted.

Like father, like daughter so it seems. Pretty sad.

[rue721]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How is it not  a dig at Dean either from Sam or the writers?

I don't see it as a dig at Dean, because IMO it was coming from a place of Sam trying to "manage" Mary, not him trying to "manage" Dean.

I don't think that Sam was trying to begrudge Dean his feelings. I think that, per usual, Sam was on his ABSOLUTE best behavior around Mary -- because he's worried about screwing things up with her -- so when Dean wasn't on his absolute best behavior, too, and dared to *gasp* sorta/kinda/jokingly complain, he tried to "cover" for Dean in a way. Like, oh Dean's just being silly....don't take that the wrong way, don't get mad at him, don't give up on him...etc.

YMMV of course. Just explaining why I didn't take it as a dig. :)

58 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure Sam was ready to hear Dean's talk right then. And, it could be that Sam still isn't, even after Mary told them the truth? I mean, I think he's pretty well entrenched in some positive--and possibly delusional--thinking right now. Sam just wants to believe in this one thing, that it's all gonna be fine, and I think Dean is trying to not take that away from him. 

Yeah, probably true. I doubt that Sam would appreciate some ~truth bombs~ right now. I do think that it would probably be a good thing for Dean to make sure that Sam understands that what Sam thinks/wants/feels still matters, though, even though Mary apparently doesn't give a shit about it. I mean, it still matters *to Dean,* even if in no other way.

And also, I think that it would be interesting to hear how Dean's perspective went from treating John more-or-less like Sam is treating Mary, to getting to the point where he's his own person and has some distance from eg John's viewpoints and John's perspectives and John's feelings. I mean, back in the day, Dean was focused on John in a way that pretty much usurped Dean's own identity and perspective (within himself), and now he's not like that anymore, and it would be interesting to hear his own take on that, and hear what he thinks relates from his own experience with that to Sam's experience with Mary. And also, just to hear Dean's viewpoint about Mary in general. Like, he clearly doesn't trust her, but what is at stake here? Would he or could he cut her off forever? (I would guess no, but who knows?!). Is that a possibility? If it is, what would she have to do in order to cross that line? It would be interesting to hear Dean "explain" to Sam how he's perceiving/relating to Mary IMO.

Also, this is maybe too literal and concrete, but I would think that Dean would want to tell Sam explicitly that he's not going to let Mary sell Sam down the river to the BMOL. I mean, she's working with people who tortured Sam -- "the phone call is coming from inside the house," if you know what I mean. If I were Sam, I'd be really scared. Like, what if the BMOL want to torture Sam again. Would Mary shrug her shoulders and just be like, "well, what can I do? maybe it's for the best..." and let it happen? I don't THINK so, but she also doesn't seem like she'd make much of a move to stop it since she apparently is still OK with working with the BMOL knowing that they've already done that to him once.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rue721

[Dobian]

So they sent Gavin MacLeod back to the Love Boat.  That name and how he died on a sinking ship always made me chuckle.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Also, this is maybe too literal and concrete, but I would think that Dean would want to tell Sam explicitly that he's not going to let Mary sell Sam down the river to the BMOL. I mean, she's working with people who tortured Sam -- "the phone call is coming from inside the house," if you know what I mean. If I were Sam, I'd be really scared. Like, what if the BMOL want to torture Sam again. Would Mary shrug her shoulders and just be like, "well, what can I do? maybe it's for the best..." and let it happen? I don't THINK so, but she also doesn't seem like she'd make much of a move to stop it since she apparently is still OK with working with the BMOL knowing that they've already done that to him once.

The BMOL were also ready to torture Dean, kill him and kill Mary. Not that that seems to make a difference to her so it`s not like Sam is singled out here for some reason. Back at the beginning of the Season he was a victim of opportunity. 

I also doubt Sam thinks that Dean would stand idly by for more torture. Even Mary likely wouldn`t do it because that might open her eyes. 

Quote

I do think that it would probably be a good thing for Dean to make sure that Sam understands that what Sam thinks/wants/feels still matters, though, even though Mary apparently doesn't give a shit about it. I mean, it still matters *to Dean,* even if in no other way.

Since Dean`s personal experience is "get over it, your feelings inconvenience me" or "feelings, how you are doing them wrong", I`m not sure he is aware of the concept of "your feelings are valid and matter". I would consider it the height of bitter irony if his character of all people were made to say this to anyone else.

[rue721]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The BMOL were also ready to torture Dean, kill him and kill Mary. Not that that seems to make a difference to her so it`s not like Sam is singled out here for some reason. Back at the beginning of the Season he was a victim of opportunity. 

I also doubt Sam thinks that Dean would stand idly by for more torture. Even Mary likely wouldn`t do it because that might open her eyes.

It COULD happen to any one of them, which is one of the reasons why I think working with the BMOL is insane just generally. But it actually did happen to Sam. So I think he'd be the one who'd be feeling the most betrayed by someone colluding with the BMOL, and the one most freaked out by the idea of being vulnerable to the BMOL again.

I doubt that Sam thinks Dean would stand idly by and let bad things happen to him, but that's not really what it's about IMO. It's about hearing that Dean would protect Sam *from Mary.* From her specifically, not just from bad things in general.

I don't mean that Mary herself would torture Sam or whatever. I mean protection from Mary in terms of her (unwittingly or not) playing Sam, or sending him into a very dangerous trap, or selling him down the river to very bad people, and then leaving Sam SOL. I think Dean probably would see that kind of thing coming and would protect Sam from it, because he seems to have a very good handle on what's going on, but I don't think that Sam realizes that Dean is as on top of this as he is.

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since Dean`s personal experience is "get over it, your feelings inconvenience me" or "feelings, how you are doing them wrong", I`m not sure he is aware of the concept of "your feelings are valid and matter". I would consider it the height of bitter irony if his character of all people were made to say this to anyone else.

I dunno, I'm picturing Dean basically being like, "what Mom is doing is some bullshit!" and Sam reflexively defending her...but then later, when Sam is on his own, and trying not to be upset and to just deal, thinking back to himself and being like, "you know, it IS kind of bullshit..." And that kind of being a comfort to Sam ("validating his feelings" lol) after the fact. Eh, ultimately, I just want them to be there for each other I guess.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

one of the reasons why I think working with the BMOL is insane just generally. But it actually did happen to Sam. So I think he'd be the one who'd be feeling the most betrayed by someone colluding with the BMOL, and the one most freaked out by the idea of being vulnerable to the BMOL again.

Lady MustDieImmediately hand cuffed Dean with his arms over his head (ish) and held  an ice pick like tool up to his eye and was telling him exactly what she was going to do and how he would die of pain. Now sure it was probably to try and get Sam to squeal but given she already tortured Sam,there is no reason to think she would have balked at running an ice pick into Dean's eye, so Dean has as much reason to feel betrayed. And he also probably feels betrayed on Sams behalf as well

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It COULD happen to any one of them, which is one of the reasons why I think working with the BMOL is insane just generally. But it actually did happen to Sam. So I think he'd be the one who'd be feeling the most betrayed by someone colluding with the BMOL

Which made it insane that he was the one calling them a couple episodes back. But in a weird way that paved a way for him to be more okay with working with them. Not logically but as presented by the show.

So far Dean seems to be the only one with the "WTF? Nope" stance with them. 

Quote

I don't mean that Mary herself would torture Sam or whatever. I mean protection from Mary in terms of her (unwittingly or not) playing Sam, or sending him into a very dangerous trap, or selling him down the river to very bad people, and then leaving Sam SOL.

I know you meant Mary colluding with them some more. But I don`t think she would actually "sell" Sam to them. So far, the BMOL kiss her ass a lot (and tell her crazy cultists stuff) but in general they are trying to make themselves seem friendly and helpful. Any kind of such overly shady dealings would be detrimental to that so they wouldn`t use Mary for such a purpose. Precisely because I think it would give her a much-needed reality check.      

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It's about hearing that Dean would protect Sam *from Mary.* From her specifically, not just from bad things in general.

Not that I think there would be any scenario in which either one sided with Mary over the other to the real detriment of their respective brother but right now Dean is already defiant and stand-offish with Mary and Sam tries hard to stay in her good graces. So that fear should be an irrational fear of Dean`s, not Sam`s.  

Edited February 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

And also, I think that it would be interesting to hear how Dean's perspective went from treating John more-or-less like Sam is treating Mary, to getting to the point where he's his own person and has some distance from eg John's viewpoints and John's perspectives and John's feelings. I mean, back in the day, Dean was focused on John in a way that pretty much usurped Dean's own identity and perspective (within himself), and now he's not like that anymore, and it would be interesting to hear his own take on that, and hear what he thinks relates from his own experience with that to Sam's experience with Mary. And also, just to hear Dean's viewpoint about Mary in general. Like, he clearly doesn't trust her, but what is at stake here? Would he or could he cut her off forever? (I would guess no, but who knows?!). Is that a possibility? If it is, what would she have to do in order to cross that line? It would be interesting to hear Dean "explain" to Sam how he's perceiving/relating to Mary IMO.

This is what I want to see/hear from Dean. That he sees what Sam is doing with mom because he lived it and learned from it with dad. I think that Dean doesn't trust the Brits-first and foremost-likely after this off-screen talk both brothers will have more of an idea of why Mary wants to work with these jerks and it will likely be because of what's been alluded to already-they're better and more efficient at killing monsters than hunters are; they can kill more of them their way-and gosh-oh-golly didn't that line sound just like Sam's reasoning for killing monsters with his mind(along with juicing up on the demon blood) as Ruby wanted him to back in s4. And because less monsters means less work for hunters like her sons; and more of a chance for them to have lives or even just experiences outside of hunting.

These are the "good intentions" that she's allowing the Brits to lead her down the road to hell with, and that they themselves are on, given the givens that we've been given, but that the Winchesters know nothing of as yet. And I don't think that Mary knows much of them either. Only what they've allowed her to know as a lowly American hunter in their employ. They still have their secrets-especially the kind that include killing off all witnesses to whatever they do, whenever they do it. Whether she convinces one of her sons to join her for the reasons she's stated or neither of them, my feeling is that Dean will do what he's done since s4, and that is shield and protect the family even when one of them makes a decision that he thinks is a wrong/misguided one. I'm not sure if Sam will stand with him or not, or if he will buy into what Mary is trying to sell(which is really only what the Brits are trying to sell). But I don't see Dean ever fully trusting the BMoL. He is a hunter of the American ilk to his core and, this, even though he is a MoL, too. He will, however, possibly go along to watch their backs, and even work with some of them in order to do that. In fact, I'd bet that this is the only way that he'd work with them-if Mary and Sam-or even if only Mary-opts to work with them.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So far Dean seems to be the only one with the "WTF? Nope" stance with them. 

IA. Although another possible reason that he might agree to work with them is that it might allow Mary(and Sam if he still wants it) a better chance at that "normalcy" thing. But as for himself, Dean doesn't want that life or need it. He may have wondered about it once upon a time, but those days are long gone, IMO; and those feelings no longer exist for him, again IMO. He's happy when he's hunting, as he was taught to hunt by his father, and he knows that now and takes pride in it. This is the best thing that has come out of S12 for me so far, and I'm really, really, REALLY!!! hoping that they will leave this alone, and not mess with it.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Wasn't the reason Mary gave for not joining them on the hunt something to do with resting up because she was recovering from Ramaliel or whatever his name was? 

I remember the same thing, which to me, it would seem to be a weird excuse if their separation had been more than a couple of weeks, but I could be wrong.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Take it the wrong way how? Dean wasnt joking. Dean was directly expressing his dismay with Mary's distance with a crapton of shade. It ws played for a laugh but Dean wasn't kidding either. IMO, Sam didn't want  Mary to be upset so  he shut Dean down. Maybe he should just let Dean be pissed off if Dean  wants to be pissed off.

I think the small difference here between the current situation and the old Dean - John - Sam situation is that in the old situation, Sam was fairly certain that Dean and John would be okay. Sam always knew of Dean and John as close. So if Sam did something to make John angry / annoyed / etc. that wouldn't affect Dean and John very much. And Sam even had fairly concrete proof of this when Sam and John had the big argument and Sam left for college, because Dean and John still hunted together and appeared to remain close.

But Sam doesn't have that same luxury right now, or at least he's not looking at it that way. I think Sam is afraid that if Dean says something to scare Mary off, Mary leaves and is gone from his (Sam's) life too. So he's not just playing go between between Mary and Dean, he's trying to hold on to his own tentative relationship with Mary. Even if most of it is one-sided on his end, he's not ready to give it up.

As for the "dramatic" comment, I'm guessing it's somewhere inbetween. I think Sam was trying to keep Mary from being all the things @rue721 talked about and Dean was maybe being a small bit of a drama queen, so maybe Sam meant that part just a little... It's not like Sam hasn't been a drama queen himself on occasion and been called out on it, so he knows what it looks like. And if as I conjectured above, it's only been a couple of weeks or so, then maybe Dean added and extra "long" or two in there than was necessary. Did Dean feel that way and have a right to feel that way? Yup! But Sam also isn't ready to deal with that right now when his own relationship with Mary is still so new.

So while I'm sure that Sam understands where Dean is coming from, also -as someone said above - he's not ready to face the reality yet. I think Sam's in Dean at the end of "All Hell..., Part 2" mode of "can't we just enjoy the moment for a bit before the reality has to set in." He's willing to take what he can get for a while, even if it's not quite ideal, and he wants to minimize anything that might screw that up.

[shang yiet]

I don't see Sam's remark as a dig at Dean anymore then Dean's remarks in the past when he tried to downplay Sam's rightful anger at John was a dig at Sam. 

Not sure about John usurping Dean's identity. They both loved to hunt and shared the same goals. Sam was the odd man out and I'm glad he had the courage to rebel. Wish he could do the same with Mary.

Finally, Sam is allowed to express some understated disappointment with Mary. If he hadn't said that, I would have thought he was on tranquilizers. He does have feelings, yay!

As for the rest, I am not interested in the Rowena/Crowley'Gavin family business. And it feels like the whole Lucifer baby angle has nothing to do with the Winchesters. So I don't care.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Haven't read through the comments, so apologies in advance if anything is redundant.  Just watched and had a few, hopefully brief thoughts:

• Wow!  What a creepy ending!  I liked it.
• Poor Sam.  He was so happy to see Mom.  (He's thinking, "she came back! She came back!") And then she drops that bombshell.  Well, at least she told them versus them finding out some other way.  But you just know Sam was thinking of ALL the torture Lady !@#$%^&*()! did to him, not just the burned foot.  
• I was very happy to see the Pissed!Dean face at Mary.  She deserves it.
• For awhile there, thought for sure Mary and Ketch had something going on.  Guess not. 
• I really liked Gavin.  Sad to see him go.
• I also like their interactions with Roweena.  I could go for more of that.  
• I'm kind of 'meh' on the Dagon/Rosemary's baby/Lucifer storyline.  But willing to see where it goes. 

Definitely worth another watch.  

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Not sure about John usurping Dean's identity. They both loved to hunt and shared the same goals.

He was never, in any way, offered a choice in this; that was a very important missing element in his up-bringing. And the added ingrained prime directive of watch out for Sammy and protect Sammy at all costs made rebellion virtually impossible for Dean because he loved his family so much that he allowed any choices he might have had to be usurped by what John wanted for both him and Sam. And it carried over into his adulthood in many, sad ways. But I do think that he's learned that it was wrong of John to do that to a child, and thankfully, they are no longer children and they can recognize when it's happening and stop it this time. This is what Mary needs to learn-that they are no longer just and only her children; they are adults and not only that, but hardened hunters, who should and will have a say in what they want to do, how they want to do it,  and who they will choose to work with.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

So far, the BMOL kiss her ass a lot (and tell her crazy cultists stuff) but in general they are trying to make themselves seem friendly and helpful. Any kind of such overly shady dealings would be detrimental to that so they wouldn`t use Mary for such a purpose. Precisely because I think it would give her a much-needed reality check.

They're kissing her ass because they want something from her...I don't know what it is yet, but that ass-kissing isn't for free. She's going to have to pay for it by doing something pretty terrible eventually, I'm sure.

I think she'll do that terrible thing without a whole lot of hesitation, too. She already was willing to throw everybody into a trap at Ramiel's in order to get the Colt, so I think that she would be pretty likely to sell any one of them down the river for the BMOL. While telling herself it's all for the best, probably.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not that I think there would be any scenario in which either one sided with Mary over the other to the real detriment of their respective brother but right now Dean is already defiant and stand-offish with Mary and Sam tries hard to stay in her good graces. So that fear should be an irrational fear of Dean`s, not Sam`s.

Dean isn't that vulnerable to Mary's manipulation because he sees through her and isn't so completely desperate to have a relationship with her. Sam is very vulnerable to her, though. He's too naive and too desperate to treat her with as much suspicion as her behavior actually warrants.

But Sam isn't actually stupid, so he has got to see that Mary is dangerous and that he's playing with fire trying to have a relationship with her right now...even if he won't admit that and even if he can't see exactly what trap she's going to lead him into next. Sam isn't looking out for himself properly. He won't let himself get mad at her, or stand up to her, he won't let himself feel what HE feels instead of worrying about what she feels, because he's too worried of crossing her. He's so busy worrying about her that he's not worrying about himself, and if he's not looking out for himself, then who is? Sam is lucky, and the real answer is that Dean is -- and I think it would be nice if Dean would say that. Nice for BOTH of them.

Dean also used to say that kind of thing very very often about John (ETA:  I mean that Dean would say that such-and-such bad thing couldn't happen to Sam, because he'd protect him. Usually, from what I remember, in the context of Sam never having to worry about being stranded alone in a bad situation *at home,* like in a bad "life situation"), and I think that Sam never really registered what Dean was saying because he never really got that caught up in John. Maybe he would actually get what Dean was/is saying now, though.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I'm not sure if Sam will stand with him or not, or if he will buy into what Mary is trying to sell(which is really only what the Brits are trying to sell). But I don't see Dean ever fully trusting the BMoL.

I think that Sam will 100% buy whatever Mary sells, because he wants very badly to buy it. He'd be willing to pay pretty much any price for it. I think he wants things to be good with her SO badly. IMO he really really wants her to love him. I think it's kind of upsetting to watch, because I don't she can or will love him, but who knows. Maybe I'm too pessimistic :)

ETA:  I think that they can still have a relationship that's at least somewhat stable and satisfying even if she never gets to the point of loving him/them as her sons. But Sam will have to accept her limits and the limits of the relationship before that can happen, so...I dunno if that's in the cards for the near future for him. Dean is different, I think Dean is already more or less there. But he had practice with John, so. And anyway, like I said, it's possible I'm being too pessimistic and she actually will love them eventually.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rue721

[Mick Lady]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Crowley also spend a year trying to find a way to Purgatory when he had a backdoor in his own yard AND he knew how to get to Reapers to open it. When you have noone to oversee things like that, you always end up with lol!canon.

This so much! Really, someone should send these writers a link so Super-wiki!

[ILoveReading]

59 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I think the small difference here between the current situation and the old Dean - John - Sam situation is that in the old situation, Sam was fairly certain that Dean and John would be okay. Sam always knew of Dean and John as close. So if Sam did something to make John angry / annoyed / etc. that wouldn't affect Dean and John very much. And Sam even had fairly concrete proof of this when Sam and John had the big argument and Sam left for college, because Dean and John still hunted together and appeared to remain close.

 

 

Taking my response to the All Seasons thread. 

[Mick Lady]

17 hours ago, rue721 said:

When I was a kid, one of the neighborhood "thugs" stole my cat and used their dogs to kill her. I can tell you right now that I would NEVER EVER EVER have trusted any of those guys as far as I could throw them after that. There's just some things that you hold grudges for -- and IMO that you SHOULD hold grudges for, because "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me..." So I think Mary is a fool to just let Sam's torture slip by as though it teaches her nothing about the people she's dealing with.

Halt the thread! Rue, I am so sorry, that flat out sucks! Good God, how awful!

[Icarus]

Just watched it and like others have said – pretty boring, I caught myself several times looking away as I had lost interest.

That whole first scene with Crowley and Lucifer was written in such a clunky way that I actually cringed for Mark Shepherd having to deliver something out of such drivel.

I absolutely loath the Mary part now, was on the fence about her coming back but I almost hate her now which is ridiculous for a TV character!! I agree with lots of comments that Dean is the most divorced from Mary at the moment in the sense that he is more wary about her, Sam is being written it seems to me anyway, to be going out of his way to be empathetic with Mary and wants to believe that she is his “Mom” in waiting.

Hope they – Sam and Dean – latch on soon to how bad the BMOL are, I really don't want that to be strung out any longer. Hope also that Mary goes to Britain with the BMOL and carries on hunting there!! But I guess we are going to get lots of angst for S/D with Mary in the middle somehow, whether it be pitching them on different sides of is Mom good or bad, and she needs another chance or one agreeing to work with her and the BMOL or some other way to cause angst amongst the “family” can't wait NOT. Another things I really, really, really (and more really's) hate are the Weapons – I think the writers have made a HUGE mistake with this taking us back to the deus ex machina scenario.

[AwesomO4000]

32 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that Sam will 100% buy whatever Mary sells, because he wants very badly to buy it. He'd be willing to pay pretty much any price for it. I think he wants things to be good with her SO badly. IMO he really really wants her to love him. I think it's kind of upsetting to watch, because I don't she can or will love him, but who knows. Maybe I'm too pessimistic :)

And oh, how I'm going to hate it if we once again have a "Sam gets talked into doing the wrong thing" story. I'm tired of Sam being made to make the wrong choices lately with only Dean being the "voice of reason." Way back when, Sam was allowed to believe / go along with Dean and his judgement. Like in "Devil's Trap" he sided with Dean instead of possessed John. Then he fluctuated back and forth - season 4 (ugh) being a low point - but things had evened out in season 6 and 7. Ironically even Soulless Sam sometimes relied on Dean's judgement when it came to moral matters.

But seemingly since Carver took over, it's been a long parade of Sam making the wrong choice to Dean's right one. It's become tiresome. So I'll be annoyed if this is yet another one, even if I'll feel badly for and get where Sam is coming from.

However, the opposite would be worse. I don't want Mary to be right either, because I don't want the BMoL to be right. So what I do want is for Sam to side with Dean if it becomes a Mary / Dean thing. Unfortunately, I don't think the writers will allow that to happen.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But seemingly since Carver took over, it's been a long parade of Sam making the wrong choice to Dean's right one. It's become tiresome. So I'll be annoyed if this is yet another one, even if I'll feel badly for and get where Sam is coming from.

Are you forgetting the MOC?  And Gadreel?

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Are you forgetting the MOC?  And Gadreel?

No, I'm not forgetting them at all. I just didn't really see them as instances of Dean being shown as wrong.

(Rest of this post taken to the "Bitterness" thread, just in case. I do it for you @SueB!)

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And oh, how I'm going to hate it if we once again have a "Sam gets talked into doing the wrong thing" story. I'm tired of Sam being made to make the wrong choices lately with only Dean being the "voice of reason."

Eh I think reason and maybe even morality become at least somewhat irrelevant when you're talking about dilemmas concerning to your own mother. I mean, siding *against* your mom isn't really "the right choice" either. If Mary is in deep with the BMOL, they can't just leave her to it, let alone turn on her outright.

That's why I think it'd be interesting to know if Dean thinks Mary could do something really unforgivable -- something that would make it OK to give up on her forever -- or not. If he does, then it's a different ballgame than if he doesn't. (I'm assuming that Sam is of the mindset that he couldn't ever give up on Mary completely. Although maybe that'll change, too).

YMMV. I also don't blame Crowley for Rowena getting the better of him in this episode. Like I said, dealing with your mother is different from dealing with other people. Crowley's always going to be vulnerable to Rowena, and I think Sam and Dean are probably always going to be vulnerable to Mary, too. That's just the name of the game IMO.

28 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Halt the thread! Rue, I am so sorry, that flat out sucks! Good God, how awful!

Yeah, he is (was?) awful. A violent crackhead. He did lots of bullshit.

[Mick Lady]

8 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I was never going to be overly interested in an episode that focused on Crowley and his family, I’ll consider it a win overall. Since I didn’t particularly care for this episode, and it covered so many different dangling plots I find it practically impossible to consider anything in detail, I’m just going to write some thoughts that occurred to me while I watched it. 

Wayward Son, I love your posts, but I have finally found a point I disagree with. I love Crowley and Rowena!  I'm very intrigued by Rowena's story this season, and I'm hoping for more development, especially what seems to be her growing "relationship" with Dean. I know he remembers their conversation in "Regarding Dean", and I'm waiting to see how it fleshes out.

As for Crowley, I can never guess what he is really up  to, and that's just flat-out fun! Now we have him saving Cas but at the same time keeping Lucifer his prisoner. Now he knows Lucifer's child is still alive, and I'm looking forward to finding out how he's going to use this to his advantage!

Any thoughts? If you do, I'd love to here them in S&S!

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

best behavior around Mary -- because he's worried about screwing things up with her -- so when Dean wasn't on his absolute best behavior, too, and dared to *gasp* sorta/kinda/jokingly complain, he tried to "cover" for Dean in a way. Like, oh Dean's just being silly....don't take that the wrong way, don't get mad at him, don't give up on him...etc.

The problem I have with this scenario is that it's kind of implying that if Mary nopes out again Sam will hold it against Dean because Dean dared to speak his mind. I feel like they are kind of already setting up that dichotomy which can be avoided if we get a full on conversation between Dean and Sam about Mary. 

ETA: This kind of makes it seem like Sam sees Mary as some kind of wilting flower that needs to be protected from mean ole Dean. Sorry but when Mary is lying to her boys in a way that nearly gets them all killed her hurt feelings kind of don't matter to me. I want Sam to wake up!

Edited February 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

7 hours ago, rue721 said:

I wonder if Gavin's sacrifice is foreshadowing a similar sacrifice that Mary is going to make. I wonder if she's going to go back in time to die when she was "supposed to" in order to save someone *she* loves from going down "the wrong path." I mean, what if she decides to retroactively rescue John like Gavin decided to retroactively rescued Fiona?

This whole time travel thing makes my head hurt. Mary going "back" would screw up too many events that have already happened, sort of like Bradbury's "Butterfly Effect"