S05.E14: The Sin-Eater

[AyChihuahua]

46 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

But Susan actually gave her number to HT who gave it to Oliver. So would it really be rape since she thinks she's with HT even if she doesn't know it?

She gave her number to HT who was wearing Oliver Queen's face. (Not to mention, giving your number is not consenting to sex.) 

If Oliver conspired with HT for HT to bang Susan thinking she's banging Oliver Queen, he's an accomplice to rape, and holy crap on a cracker a grotesque human being and NOT a superhero. That'd make the post-murder-of-a-good-guy-murderboner look like child's play.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/15/woman-convicted-of-impersonating-man-to-dupe-friend-into-having-sex

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4215832/Man-arrested-sexual-assault-impersonated-child-actor.html (From the story I'm not sure whether it was a rape by fraud situation or a forcible rape.)

Edited February 25, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

She gave her number to HT who was wearing Oliver Queen's face. (Not to mention, giving your number is not consenting to sex.) 

I think maybe the question is coming from the fact that it was kind of unclear whether she knew she gave her number to Oliver or Human Target since she knew who Human Target was and that he was masquerading as Oliver on the day she gave him said number. But...the show made it pretty clear that even if she realized that she gave her number to Human Target that she thinks she's with Oliver Queen now. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I think maybe the question is coming from the fact that it was kind of unclear whether she knew she gave her number to Oliver or Human Target since she knew who Human Target was and that he was masquerading as Oliver on the day she gave him said number. But...the show made it pretty clear that even if she realized that she gave her number to Human Target that she thinks she's with Oliver Queen now. 

Yeah, I'm not really sure what "she thinks she's with HT even if she doesn't know it" means. 

It's all academic, though. There's just no way in the Year of Our Lord 2017 they'd have the hero of the show conspire with another dude to trick a woman into sex with that dude (or anyone else).

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

Yeah, I'm not really sure what "she thinks she's with HT even if she doesn't know it" means. 

Ah, I read that as "she thinks she's with HT even if she doesn't know it's Oliver" for some reason, haha.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Ah, I read that as "she thinks she's with HT even if she doesn't know it's Oliver" for some reason, haha.

I believe in the original spec Oliver and HT were conspiring to make her think she's banging Oliver when she's actually banging HT. So by the terms of the spec, she couldn't know she was actually banging HT.

It's all gross and rapey and I'm POSITIVE the show's not going to go there.

[johntfs]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I believe in the original spec Oliver and HT were conspiring to make her think she's banging Oliver when she's actually banging HT. So by the terms of the spec, she couldn't know she was actually banging HT.

It's all gross and rapey and I'm POSITIVE the show's not going to go there.

As I understood it, Human Target impersonated Oliver.  While impersonating Oliver he got romantically friendly with Susan, who left the door very much open for more romantic friendliness with Oliver, who chose to walk through that door.  After Oliver walked through the door, Susan chose to continue the romance and opened the door to her bedroom to Oliver, who was, at that point, Oliver.  It's a bit skeevy at the outset, but ultimately not "rapey."  The two people (Susan and Oliver) choosing to have sex with each other of their own free will did so with no impersonations involved.  Hell the whole thing doesn't even really rise to the level of Cyrano de Bergerac.  When Christopher Chance substitutes himself for a target, he "becomes" them down to their core personality.  From Susan's perspective, she's been dating Oliver the whole time.  The same is almost true from  Oliver's perspective.

[AyChihuahua]

8 minutes ago, johntfs said:

As I understood it, Human Target impersonated Oliver.  While impersonating Oliver he got romantically friendly with Susan, who left the door very much open for more romantic friendliness with Oliver, who chose to walk through that door.  After Oliver walked through the door, Susan chose to continue the romance and opened the door to her bedroom to Oliver, who was, at that point, Oliver.  It's a bit skeevy at the outset, but ultimately not "rapey."  The two people (Susan and Oliver) choosing to have sex with each other of their own free will did so with no impersonations involved.  Hell the whole thing doesn't even really rise to the level of Cyrano de Bergerac.  When Christopher Chance substitutes himself for a target, he "becomes" them down to their core personality.  From Susan's perspective, she's been dating Oliver the whole time.  The same is almost true from  Oliver's perspective.

No, scroll back. We were talking about statsgirl's spec that HT and Oliver have been working together to fool Susan into thinking she's banging Oliver when she's actually been banging HT. We were not talking about what has happened so far in the show.

Edited February 25, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[johntfs]

9 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

No, scroll back. We were talking about statsgirl's spec that HT and Oliver have been working together to fool Susan into thinking she's banging Oliver when she's actually been banging HT. We were not talking about what has happened so far in the show.

Yeah, no, I don't think the show could survive that level of disgusting.  For one thing, it would turn Oliver and Christopher Chance from heroes to vile rapists.  I can't imagine Stephen Amell tolerating that.  Also, on a logic note, presumably Christopher Chance would be too busy protecting other people from assassins to spend months playing a hideous practical joke on some reporter woman.

As specs go, it's kind of up there with "maybe Malcolm Merlyn will come back disguised as Roy Harper so he can have sex with Thea and ultimately father a child and grandchild in one go."

Was that not a real spec?  Oh well, you're welcome.

Edited February 25, 2017 by johntfs

[AudienceofOne]

Am I supposed to know where Ragsman went? Was this a thing I've forgotten? 

I quite like the new Canary, mostly because her acting isn't a giant pool of suck. Evelyn should go get a job on Teen Wolf as Liam's new girlfriend or something. She'd fit right in. Haven't missed her at all. Another character I didn't miss was Oliver's new super serious girlfriend that hasn't even been in the last few episodes and was only sleeping with him for a story. Unless she shows up in the finale wearing a mask and calling herself "The Bride of Prometheus" or something then I have no idea what her purpose is.

Also, Oliver?  Your DA covered up a murder. Do you maybe want to consider your DA situation?

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Am I supposed to know where Ragsman went? Was this a thing I've forgotten? 

He left in 512

[BunsenBurner]

You people are great!! What wonderful comments.

[thegirlsleuth]

I multi-tasked this evening, clicking on street signs and watching this week's Arrow.  Last week's Arrow was so bad that it was funny; this week was just banal.  

I think they've successfully killed off the season's momentum.  Weirdly, I think this episode could have been an interesting one immediately following Billy's death, but between bringing back Laurel to segue to the new Black Canary, finding the new Black Canary, Bratva, and the very special episode, we've now had five episodes of spinning our tires.  It struck me that for the last three seasons we've had these huge mid-season finales which end in giant cliffhangers.  The problem is they throw off the storytelling rhythm for the season. By rights, Oliver killing an innocent cop--Felicity's boyfriend--is probably the worst thing that Prometheus could force him to do.  I might be surprised by later events, but right now I put "Oliver getting impeached" way below "Killing Billy" on the scale of things that should drive Oliver to despair. I've ranted plenty about Guggenheim's GOTCHA! storytelling, but this season is losing its storytelling momentum, and because they decided to turn everyone into pod people, I don't have the emotional interest in the characters.

I agree with everything that's been said about Oliver's hypocrisy re: Thea and Susan. Because I had read the thread before I watched I paid close attention to the Thea/Felicity conversation.  When Oliver confronted Felicity, she acted like she didn't know what Thea meant to do. But Thea and Felicity together talked about how they couldn't just erase the evidence, and at the end of that first scene Thea asks "what should we do?" which makes me think the two of them came up with a plan together.  This being Arrow, I will assume that the writers forgot the conversation (or somehow wanted to pin it on Thea), rather than it signaling Felicity's descent into darkness. 

Echo sounded nasal, which might be a cold or might be the fact that his latex T is covering his nostrils.

Glad to see Quintin comfort Oliver for killing Billy.  He had gone a few episodes without anyone feeling sorry for him.  Felicity got to shrug in the background.

Dinah and Diggle are still generating chemistry and it is starting to freak me out.  Don't go there show!  I am liking Dinah, even if Juliana's still not a great actress, and would happily watch a CW low-rent Birds of Prey with Dinah, Felicity, and Thea.  I'd even like them to add Rutina Wesley as a sort of conflicted anti-hero.  They squandered their evil ladies in this episode.

I really think they could have gone to a interesting place with Chase if they took the "friend/enemy investigating Oliver" plot away from Susan and gave it to him.  That could have been an interesting push/pull through the whole season, especially if he is either the Vigilante or Prometheus. I have a lot of thoughts about this that I might put in bitterness later.

I hope Stephen either gets some sleep or starts sucking up to the makeup people. He has looked so worn out for three episodes and he is making me sad.

Yet another episode in which Felicity was behind the computer the whole time, although she did get to take a big field trip over to the conference table, so I'm sure that was exciting for her.

Edited February 25, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[DigitalCount]

14 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Dinah and Diggle are still generating chemistry and it is starting to freak me out.  Don't go there show!  I am liking Dinah, even if Juliana's still not a great actress, and would happily watch a CW low-rent Birds of Prey with Dinah, Felicity, and Thea.  I'd even like them to add Rutina Wesley as a sort of conflicted anti-hero.  They squandered their evil ladies in this episode.

While I agree to varying degrees with everything you wrote, I feel annoyed that these three came back for this. It was so...basic? I mean, the only character that was actually the character we once saw was Liza. Cupid in particular was basically just a glorified mook, though it was hilarious to see her attempt to run away.

Also, if S5 was the final season of Arrow proper and the next season was Birds of Prey, I'd be all over it. Having done a little research, I'm a bit surprised to see that Rutina Wesley's character actually is a comics character, with the most inspired hero name of all time: Lady Cop. If they could give her an actual arc back to being a hero I'd be ecstatic, though this team seems to be into lightswitches when it suits them. Not always, but sometimes.

[thegirlsleuth]

You are right about Cupid, @DigitalCount and I noticed it more with Chien Na Wei.  In the first/second season she was genuinely scary, leading the Triad and a match for Oliver in fighting  She seemed like a follower here, with Liza calling the shots, which seemed out of character for her. I'd love to see Liza again in some capacity, mostly because Rutina managed to slip in character layers in pretty shallow writing, but also because I think she could have a really interesting redemption story. 

I wish there was a Arrowverse Birds of Prey, where there was a core group and they swapped in female heroes from the other shows for special missions.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[LeighAn]

Yeah I still think our Dark Birds of Prey Felicity blackmailing or offering them freedom if they help track down Prometheus would have given the girls more respect then the ultimate VOW B plot they got.

I enjoyed Lizas part but I wish they had given the same amount of substance to Cupid and China White.

[johntfs]

I'm starting to get tired of some of the crap on this show.  The show started with the idea that after five (apparent) years on the island, Oliver Queen returned to civilization as a bad-ass archer and next-level strategist dedicated to bringing down the otherwise untouchable.  The show emphasized that  by contrasting the Oliver of "now" with the pitiful yutz that was Oliver washing up on the island and slowly learning to survive and fight.  The island yutz from 10 years ago feels like a chess master compared to the Oliver of now.

The Oliver of four years ago took down the Dark Archer.  The Oliver of three years ago beat Slade Wilson and an army of superish soldiers.  The Oliver of two years ago beat Ra's al-ghul and the League of Assassins.  The Oliver of a year ago beat god-like magician Damian Darke and his army of Ghosts.  Why the fuck is the Oliver of now having such issues with a jumped-up serial killer and a less disciplined version of John Diggle's Spartan?  Especially when he has Spartan and a full team.  And the resources of Star City as its mayor.

It's reminding me in a bad way of the last season of Burn Notice when the triple threat badassery of Michael Westen, Fiona Glenanne and Sam Axe somehow turned into a trio of fucktards led around by their noses by somebody who'd normally have lasted one episode at best.

Edited February 25, 2017 by johntfs

[thegirlsleuth]

21 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I'm starting to get tired of some of the crap on this show.  The show started with the idea that after five (apparent) years on the island, Oliver Queen returned to civilization as a bad-ass archer and next-level strategist dedicated to bringing down the otherwise untouchable.  The show emphasized that  by contrast Oliver "now" with the pitiful yutz that was Oliver washing up on the island and slowly learned to survive and fight.  The island yutz from 10 years ago feels like a chess master compared to the Oliver of now.

The Oliver of four years ago took down the Dark Archer.  The Oliver of three years ago beat Slade Wilson and an army of superish soldiers.  The Oliver of two years ago beat Ra's al-ghul and the League of Assassins.  The Oliver of a year ago beat god-like magician Damian Darke and his army of Ghosts.  Why the fuck is the Oliver of now having such issues with a jumped-up serial killer and a less disciplined version of John Diggle's Spartan.  Especially when he has Spartan and a full team.  And the resources of Star City as its mayor.

It's reminding me in a bad way of the last season of Burn Notice when the triple threat badassery of Michael Westen, Fiona Glenanne and Sam Axe somehow turned into a trio of fucktards led around by the noses by somebody who'd have lasted one episode at best.

There's this dullness to Oliver this year--an emotional dullness, an intellectual dullness, and a moral dullness.  During his whole confrontation with Thea I kept thinking of that line from from the Wire, "A man's gotta have a code." From the super-darkness he came back from the island with to his efforts to honor Tommy except when forced to kill, I always knew where he stood.  This year, his moral code is somewhere between confusing and nonexistent.  And yes, he's turned into a serious idiot.  He seems to have the self-protection instincts of a baby lamb, and his tactical abilities are nonexistent.  

I realize its blasphemy to talk about The Wire in the same paragraph as Arrow, but in my defense, both Oliver and Omar talk about themselves in the third person.

[johntfs]

22 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

There's this dullness to Oliver this year--an emotional dullness, an intellectual dullness, and a moral dullness.  During his whole confrontation with Thea I kept thinking of that line from from the Wire, "A man's gotta have a code." From the super-darkness he came back from the island with to his efforts to honor Tommy except when forced to kill, I always knew where he stood.  This year, his moral code is somewhere between confusing and nonexistent.  And yes, he's turned into a serious idiot.  He seems to have the self-protection instincts of a baby lamb, and his tactical abilities are nonexistent.  

I realize its blasphemy to talk about The Wire in the same paragraph as Arrow, but in my defense, both Oliver and Omar talk about themselves in the third person.

It's okay.  Chad L Coleman was in both.  He was "Cutty" Wise on The Wire and Tobias Church on Arrow.  As I mentioned before, he's currently killin' it as Fred Johnson on The Expanse.

You know what?  I miss Malcolm Merlyn's presence.  Whether he was a bad guy, a worse guy or trying to appear to be a goodish guy,  Merlyn got Oliver to up his fucking game to deal with whatever shitstorm was blowing through.  John Barrowman needs to guest star this season to put some foot to Oliver's ass so he'll get it together.

Edited February 26, 2017 by johntfs

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

You know what?  I miss Malcolm Merlyn's presence.  Whether he was a bad guy, a worse guy or trying to appear to be a goodish guy.  Merlyn got Oliver to up his fucking game to deal with whatever shitstorm was blowing through.  John Barrowman needs to guest star this season to put some foot to Oliver's ass so he'll get it together.

Me,too.

 Malcolm is still IMO the  best villain this show has had because despite his rationale for why he turned evil, he's still batshit crazy. He still will go and do the most insane things. And I do like his emotional connection to Oliver. One never had any idea of how Malcolm would respond to any given situation other than knowing in some, way, and shape or form it was going to be BSC.

Maybe Olivers depression is because he misses his OTN (one true nemesis).

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

You know what?  I miss Malcolm Merlyn's presence.

I feel like they should just have Malcolm pop up occasionally to remind Oliver, "You're very handsome. Not especially bright." Especially this season and recent episodes, including this one. 

[KirkB]

8 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

It struck me that for the last three seasons we've had these huge mid-season finales which end in giant cliffhangers.  The problem is they throw off the storytelling rhythm for the season. By rights, Oliver killing an innocent cop--Felicity's boyfriend--is probably the worst thing that Prometheus could force him to do.  I might be surprised by later events, but right now I put "Oliver getting impeached" way below "Killing Billy" on the scale of things that should drive Oliver to despair. I've ranted plenty about Guggenheim's GOTCHA! storytelling, but this season is losing its storytelling momentum, and because they decided to turn everyone into pod people, I don't have the emotional interest in the characters.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. Mid-season finales have screwed up live TV. Whatever narrative momentum you may have had going up to that point is completely lost in the two or three months it takes for the show to come back, during which time people are likely to wander around looking for something else to watch and may not come back. Traditional broadcast TV has aired all the episodes, with occasional breaks for holidays and such, and then a big cliffhanger at the end designed to create tension and anticipation for the upcoming season. This two or three month gap doesn't have the same affect on the narrative since there was nothing new on anywhere, although it is easy to forget what was happening and back in the day you had no way to catch up unless a network decided to air the last few episodes again.

As for your second point, yes, the storytelling is particularly weird this season. I thought the LoA stuff was a mess (and it was) but at least they had a narrative direction and I understood what they were trying to do, even if I didn't always agree with or like it. But here, Prometheus isn't involved in many of the stories except in name, and the writers seem to have their dramatic priorities mixed up. Oliver killing an innocent person, let alone Felicity's boyfriend, should be a bigger imperative than whether or not he stays in office. Because, let's face it, what has Mayor Queen REALLY accomplished? His specially appointed task force members keep getting killed, he has not one but two murderous vigilantes running around unchecked, he keeps delaying meetings and votes because he's always running off to take care of his REAL job. Like it or not, Green Arrow has done more good for the city than Mayor Queen ever will.

Edited February 25, 2017 by KirkB

[AyChihuahua]

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

The island yutz from 10 years ago feels like a chess master compared to the Oliver of now.

LOL. When you're dumber than Island Yutz Ollie, you've truly hit bottom.

[thegirlsleuth]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

As for your second point, yes, the storytelling is particularly weird this season. I thought the LoA stuff was a mess (and it was) but at least they had a narrative direction and I understood what they were trying to do, even if I didn't always agree with or like it. But here, Prometheus isn't involved in many of the stories except in name, and the writers seem to have their dramatic priorities mixed up. Oliver killing an innocent person, let alone Felicity's boyfriend, should be a bigger imperative than whether or not he stays in office. Because, let's face it, what has Mayor Queen REALLY accomplished? His specially appointed task force members keep getting killed, he has not one but two murderous vigilantes running around unchecked, he keeps delaying meetings and votes because he's always running off to take care of his REAL job. Like it or not, Green Arrow has done more good for the city than Mayor Queen ever will.

Thrillers are only as good as their villains, and the last three seasons has botched the motivation for their villains.  Yes, we know that Prometheus is targeting Oliver by destroying everything he values, but why?  I think they were right to keep it a mystery until the mid-season finale, but with a villain that is vague the second half of the season is starting to meander.

Oliver's accomplishments as mayor include building a Black Canary statue that was later destroyed and hammered out a vaguely worded gun regulation that didn't prevent a gun battle in a cemetery.

[statsgirl]

18 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

 Another character I didn't miss was Oliver's new super serious girlfriend that hasn't even been in the last few episodes and was only sleeping with him for a story. Unless she shows up in the finale wearing a mask and calling herself "The Bride of Prometheus" or something then I have no idea what her purpose is.

I would so go for "The Bride of Prometheus".  Carly Pope would look great in the Elsa Lancaster costume and it would be better than this drip of a Susan.

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

As for your second point, yes, the storytelling is particularly weird this season. I thought the LoA stuff was a mess (and it was) but at least they had a narrative direction and I understood what they were trying to do, even if I didn't always agree with or like it. But here, Prometheus isn't involved in many of the stories except in name, and the writers seem to have their dramatic priorities mixed up. Oliver killing an innocent person, let alone Felicity's boyfriend, should be a bigger imperative than whether or not he stays in office. Because, let's face it, what has Mayor Queen REALLY accomplished? His specially appointed task force members keep getting killed, he has not one but two murderous vigilantes running around unchecked, he keeps delaying meetings and votes because he's always running off to take care of his REAL job. Like it or not, Green Arrow has done more good for the city than Mayor Queen ever will.

Mayor Oliver Queen has been pretty much useless this season. Thea had to do his mayoral work for him, the ACU goes after the Green Arrow rather than the three women who just killed a bunch of people, and that Firearms Freedom Act sounds completely gutless.

One of big problems with Prometheus as the season's villain is that unlike Slade or Ra's or Damian Darhk who had massive armies at their command, in order to keep villain momentum going the storyline has to be continuous.  You can't keep taking breaks to bring in new masks or go on road trips for either meta-gathering or political statements about gun control because the tension of Oliver looking into a dark mirror dissipates.

Forgetting that Billy was Felicity's boyfriend and concentrating entirely on "Oliver killed a good man" guts the story of much of its resonance.  Looking at  Felicity and remembering what he made her lose would be a bigger emotional gutting of Oliver, which is what Prometheus was going for,  than this guilt stuff which he's pretty much gone through every season.  I really thought that this would be what kept Oliver and Felicity apart this much of episodes but the show seems to have forgotten it completely.

Edited February 25, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Forgetting that Billy was Felicity's boyfriend and concentrating entirely on "Oliver killed a good man" guts the story of much of its resonance.  Looking at  Felicity and remembering what he made her lose would be a bigger emotional gutting of Oliver, which is what Prometheus was going for,  than this guilt stuff which he's pretty much gone through every season.  I really thought that this would be what kept Oliver and Felicity apart this much of episodes but the show seems to have forgotten it completely.

Yep. Billy as a character has become entirely about Oliver. It's like no one cares or remembers that Felicity was dating him. 514 was entirely about him being a member of the ACU the GA killed and putting it out there that he was set up. Then with the end scene, it became about Oliver as mayor covering it up. 

Everyone but Lance knows Felicity was dating Billy, but no one has even remarked on that. And I bet if someone told Lance at some point in the episode that he was her BF for months, he would have been shocked because no one is acting like he was. I don't even know why they had Felicity present for Lance finding out what happened since they didn't include anything about her relationship in the conversation. 

Really, Prometheus should be annoyed because I'm sure he wanted some fallout between Oliver/Felicity but it's also his own fault because he put Pike onto what really happened which made it all about Oliver/GA. 

[tangerine95]

Tbh I'm fine with them basically ignoring Billy when it comes to Felicity. Like I know she feels bad and guilty that he died and I think they showed enough to see that but I don't need to see her depressed and constantly mourning over a random character that had like 10mins of screentime and zero relationship development with Felicity especially when we didn't see it over havenrock.  It just wouldn't ring true anyway so I'd rather they ignore it because imo her going dark rn makes total sense without Billy. Billy was annoying enough alive, i don't need to see him getting the LL treatment in death so they can pretend he was relevant.  

But I do think it's stupid how they had Oliver kill him and it's supposed to be this unbelievable guilt but they're having Oliver looking for canaries the next ep and starting a new relationship and just generally being supposedly optimistic despite looking dead inside most of the time.No matter who Billy was or him being Felicity's bf, Oliver should be devastated that he killed a good guy because he knows that if he didn't start killing again then he would have found another way instead of shooting to kill right away.So far his guilt has been more tell than show imo. It's just him saying how he feels guilty and someone saying you're not lol.  So I don't get doing something if they're not willing to really follow through but not suprising for this show especially this season. 

[statsgirl]

I agree that I don't want to see Felicity all  mopey for months on end because she's mourning Billy.  But Prometheus wanted to show Oliver that he ruined the lives of everyone he got close to, that was the monologue at Susan's at the end of 5x09, and with Felicity being all bubbly and bright in pink, there's nothing of that.

Even with Thea, Oliver is all "you're turning out to be just like Mom" instead of asking himself why she did it and connecting it to the fact that he never listened to her when she warned him about Susan so Thea felt she had to do this on her own.

If you're going to have a theme for a season, it's a good idea to pull it in whenever it can enlighten the current episode.

16 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

.So far his guilt has been more tell than show imo. It's just him saying how he feels guilty and someone saying you're not lol.

The same as every single season of this show.  Maybe they think they're kicking it up to 11 this year, but they're not.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

Mid-season finales have screwed up live TV. Whatever narrative momentum you may have had going up to that point is completely lost in the two or three months it takes for the show to come back, during which time people are likely to wander around looking for something else to watch and may not come back. Traditional broadcast TV has aired all the episodes, with occasional breaks for holidays and such, and then a big cliffhanger at the end designed to create tension and anticipation for the upcoming season. This two or three month gap doesn't have the same affect on the narrative since there was nothing new on anywhere, although it is easy to forget what was happening and back in the day you had no way to catch up unless a network decided to air the last few episodes again.

While I agree that these mid season finales suck and I don't understand what purpose they serve, or why they even were put into place (network channels have also done this), the shows aren't on hiatus for two or three months. At best, one month. If they had been two months long, I'd've been able to catch up on the first seven episodes of this season. There was only enough time for me to watch the first three, before the show returned.

[insomniadreams88]

Oh I wouldn't want to see Felicity all upset either. But it's more about the fact that no one else is saying anything. I guess you could say they're taking their cues from her, but then that just means having to assume stuff about Felicity and her feelings, which is basically what the show keeps forcing us to do. 

[johntfs]

It kind of irks me that the show seems to be having Oliver down his game to cope with what really is a lower threat level.  Whatever talents Prometheus has, Oliver should have a lot more experience than Prometheus between the "island" adventure and four+ years as the Green Arrow.  Also, figure Dinah Drake would swat Evelyn Sharp like a WASPy fly.  It's also not like there's a team-up with Vigilante.  Vigilante would try to kill the shit out of Prometheus and Evelyn if he saw them.  And Vigilante is basically like Wild Dog and Spartan - a trained guy with gear and guns.  Oliver's been taking down foes like that for years.

I will say that I like the chemistry/camaraderie between Dinah and John.  They both come off as thinking the whole costumed identity thing a kind of lame.  I admit that Dinah really endeared herself to me when she openly mocked the costumes of Oliver and co. when she met them in "Second Chances."  Meanwhile, Spartan's "costume" is basically an upgraded motorcycle outfit.   It protects his identity and functions as body armor, but John is clearly going for substance over style with his outfit.  I can easily see Dinah and John bonding over being the relatively normal people in a squad of vigilantes and trading war stories from their cop and soldier days.  I could only see it going into romance if something happened to Lyla.  Which is a possibility.  The last time Audrey Marie Anderson was in the show was as a voice in episode 9.  She's also a regular on a show called Ice.  So, I guess we'll see what happens.  I'd miss Lyla, but I have to admit it'd be kind of funny if the new Black Canary they brought in to to once again check off the Green Arrow/Black Canarycomic book romance box ended up with John Diggle instead.

[Hiveminder]

24 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It kind of irks me that the show seems to be having Oliver down his game to cope with what really is a lower threat level.  Whatever talents Prometheus has, Oliver should have a lot more experience than Prometheus between the "island" adventure and four+ years as the Green Arrow.  Also, figure Dinah Drake would swat Evelyn Sharp like a WASPy fly.  It's also not like there's a team-up with Vigilante.  Vigilante would try to kill the shit out of Prometheus and Evelyn if he saw them.  And Vigilante is basically like Wild Dog and Spartan - a trained guy with gear and guns.  Oliver's been taking down foes like that for years.

I will say that I like the chemistry/camaraderie between Dinah and John.  They both come off as thinking the whole costumed identity thing a kind of lame.  I admit that Dinah really endeared herself to me when she openly mocked the costumes of Oliver and co. when she met them in "Second Chances."  Meanwhile, Spartan's "costume" is basically an upgraded motorcycle outfit.   It protects his identity and functions as body armor, but John is clearly going for substance over style with his outfit.  I can easily see Dinah and John bonding over being the relatively normal people in a squad of vigilantes and trading war stories from their cop and soldier days.  I could only see it going into romance if something happened to Lyla.  Which is a possibility.  The last time Audrey Marie Anderson was in the show was as a voice in episode 9.  She's also a regular on a show called Ice.  So, I guess we'll see what happens.  I'd miss Lyla, but I have to admit it'd be kind of funny if the new Black Canary they brought in to to once again check off the Green Arrow/Black Canarycomic book romance box ended up with John Diggle instead.

If something happened to Lyla, and Dig was given an appropriate time to grieve, and his getting together with Dinah was an organic progression of their friendship, I would probably ship them. Baring any missteps with storylines or character development by the writers. There'd have to be absolutely no hint that they killed off Lyla so Dig could get with Dinah though. 

[AyChihuahua]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

It kind of irks me that the show seems to be having Oliver down his game to cope with what really is a lower threat level.  Whatever talents Prometheus has, Oliver should have a lot more experience than Prometheus between the "island" adventure and four+ years as the Green Arrow.  Also, figure Dinah Drake would swat Evelyn Sharp like a WASPy fly.  It's also not like there's a team-up with Vigilante.  Vigilante would try to kill the shit out of Prometheus and Evelyn if he saw them.  And Vigilante is basically like Wild Dog and Spartan - a trained guy with gear and guns.  Oliver's been taking down foes like that for years.

IMO they fucked up by having him beat RAG. Even I, not a big DC comics person, know RAG is a supreme badass. Once you beat him, being unable to, e.g., beat teeny-tiny little Lonnie Manchin even WITH your ninja sister helping does not compute.

Edited February 26, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I agree with everything that's been said about Oliver's hypocrisy re: Thea and Susan. Because I had read the thread before I watched I paid close attention to the Thea/Felicity conversation.  When Oliver confronted Felicity, she acted like she didn't know what Thea meant to do. But Thea and Felicity together talked about how they couldn't just erase the evidence, and at the end of that first scene Thea asks "what should we do?" which makes me think the two of them came up with a plan together.  This being Arrow, I will assume that the writers forgot the conversation (or somehow wanted to pin it on Thea), rather than it signaling Felicity's descent into darkness. 

I've thought about this too.  The only thing I can come up with is that Thea has been worried about Susan for a while and had already compiled something to ruin her long before she found out specifically what she was up to. Her earlier threat/promise to make it so she couldn't even publish a blog were rather on point.  So if Thea had all this stuff already to go, then I could buy that Thea hands Felicity a thumb drive, says download the data on Susan's computer without Felicity seeing what was specifically compiled in the file.  But while Felicity might say sure, no problem and just do it, I have a hard time thinking she'd be willing to just leave it there.  Not unless she thought Thea had the problem taken care of.  

But Felicity seemed genuinely surprised at the result.  Maybe Felicity knew what they were putting on her computer but didn't know how it was going to be used?  They could have threatened her with how it looked, basically planting their own blackmail material.  Instead of going to Susan though, Thea dropped a tip to Susan's boss.  I could believe a scenario like that where Felicity accepts that Thea has it covered but assumed wrong about the how.  Because she had to have assumed something.  She was too much a part of recognizing the problem for her to step back and be indifferent to if they had a solution.   

[finnaire]

I think the writers would prefer that the audience not spend so much time tinkering with the nuts and bolts of how these shenanigans go down.  They just want us to get caught up in the action and relish the outcome.  One might say suspend disbelief and accept, accept.  I think one of the primary takeaways from the Felicity/Thea scheme was that although both may have been involved in the protection aspect of it (hack Susan's computer and discover what she knows), only Thea is to "blame" for the revenge. It was purposefully written to keep Felicity's hands clean of any actual harm done to Oliver's current girlfriend by his ex-fiancé.  Of course, they had to make Felicity purposefully obtuse to make it work.

[BkWurm1]

They might prefer we didn't try to make sense of their plots but the show runners are fooling themselves if they don't think we are going to try.  This is where they need to better respect the intelligence of their audience and make sure their explanations actually hold water.  

Quote

I think one of the primary takeaways from the Felicity/Thea scheme was that although both may have been involved in the protection aspect of it (hack Susan's computer and discover what she knows), only Thea is to "blame" for the revenge. It was purposefully written to keep Felicity's hands clean of any actual harm done to Oliver's current girlfriend by his ex-fiancé.  Of course, they had to make Felicity purposefully obtuse to make it work.

I was happy when they cleared Felicity of any specific attack against Susan, that would have muddied the waters of not only her upcoming/ongoing dark arc but taken away Thea's.  It would have been nice though if the writers had spent another few seconds to come up with a way for Thea to plant the info without directly involving Felicity since logistically stuff gets awkward and doesn't make sense.  

One point though, I don't blame Thea for revenge either.  She gets credit in taking down Susan, but it's not like Thea dropped her bombs because she didn't like Susan. She did it because of the risk Susan posed and if part of the reason Thea was sure Susan was a risk was due to Susan's own crappy behavior, I'm still not counting that as revenge, just Karma.  The good old goes around comes around.  

[apinknightmare]

9 hours ago, finnaire said:

I think the writers would prefer that the audience not spend so much time tinkering with the nuts and bolts of how these shenanigans go down.  They just want us to get caught up in the action and relish the outcome.  One might say suspend disbelief and accept, accept.

I really wish I could do this. Really really. 

I want to forget about this plagiarism storyline because it is so stupid and actually impossible, because the only way Susan gets fired for this is if Channel 52 took some rando's word for it and didn't do even a cursory check of the "plagiarized" material they found since Felicity said she only planted stuff on Susan's computer and didn't put the faked articles out on the web. So (unless this was a setup and she's lying, which I'm guessing she's not), Channel 52 fired her based on evidence that they didn't even bother to check, lol. 

[Chaser]

The Mayors Office, The DAs Office, The Police Force and The Press.

Basically the only competent business in Star City are the window repair guys.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

So (unless this was a setup and she's lying, which I'm guessing she's not), Channel 52 fired her based on evidence that they didn't even bother to check, lol. 

The only time I've heard of someone doing that is when they were looking for an excuse to get rid of you anyway.  Just sayin'.

(Am I being unfair to Susan?  I don't know.  But given how she treated Thea and snubbed Felicity at the Christmas party, I'm guessing she wasn't hugely popular amongst her co-workers.

Edited February 26, 2017 by statsgirl

[EmilyBettFan]

How are we supposed to take this Susan seriously if she's not even there for the gun violence/control press conference? This character is the worst and Oliver around her has become all high and mighty. Blech 

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

Basically the only competent business in Star City are the window repair guys.

At this point, they must also be the richest people in Star City.

Edited February 26, 2017 by KirkB

[Hiveminder]

2 minutes ago, KirkB said:

At this point, they must also be the richest people in Star City.

I'm imagining droves of lawyers and doctors leaving their jobs to go into the window repair business. 

[calliope1975]

29 minutes ago, KirkB said:

At this point, they must also be the richest people in Star City.

That 4th vacation home isn't going to build itself. 

[tv echo]

514 (The Sin-Eater) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Oliver and Diggle report back to the team on their visit to Amanda Westfield in Opal City:
Rene: "How'd it go with Mama Prometheus?"
Oliver: "It didn't."
Diggle: "She's probably protecting him."
Curtis: "Wow. My mom could barely handle me being gay."
Oliver: "Says she hasn't seen him in over four years, but maybe they e-mailed." (Hands device to Felicity)
Dinah: "What is that?"
Felicity: "Just a little toy that Curtis and I whipped up in case the Prometheus apple didn't fall too far from the tree."
Curtis: "It's a sniffer device. It basically pulls electronic data from any hard drives or devices nearby."
Diggle: "Did it work?"
Felicity: "Oh, yeah! Uh, a little too well. I got a petabyte worth of data here. It's gonna take me a while to work through."
Dinah: "Which is fine, because something happened while you and John were away."
Oliver: "What?"
Dinah: "Check it out."
Diggle: "Those are some familiar faces."
Oliver: "What happened?"
Dinah: "Jailbreak led by Liza Warner."
Curtis: "Didn't you put China White in prison, like, forever ago?"
Oliver: "Yeah. A couple times."
Rene: "Why does she look so familiar?"
Diggle: "Maybe she arrested you once. She used to be a cop."
Felicity: "Warner was, too. Lance convinced her to turn over a new leaf, which I'm guessing that these ladies convinced her to turn back over."
Dinah: "Well, according to the prisoners, they took the corrections department bus, and they're headed towards Star City."
Oliver: "Let's get to work on finding them. (To Dinah) We have to go."
Dinah: "Yeah."
Diggle: "Hey. You ready for your big moment?"
Dinah: "Oh, it's just a swearing in ceremony."
Diggle: "Well, you're gonna be a cop again, Dinah. It's no small thing."
Dinah: "Yeah. Guess it's not."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Oliver and Quentin are too late to capture China White, Liza Warner and Carrie Cutter:
Quentin: "Seems like we're a little late."
Oliver: "Looks like China White had a falling out with the Triad."
Quentin: "This is more than just a falling out. This is a massacre."
Oliver (over comms): "Overwatch, all we've got here are bodies and a security camera."
Felicity (over comms): "On it." (Sends surveillance feed recording to Oliver's phone)
Quentin: "That's Warner."
Oliver: "This isn't on you, Quentin."
Quentin: "I'm not so sure about that, but either way, we got to stop whatever it is these women are up to before more bodies drop."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Quentin are watching the surveillance video recording:
China White (on recording): "Chucang zai nali."
Man (on recording): "Huh?! Unh!"
Oliver: "So she said, 'Where is the depository?'"
Felicity: "I don't think she got her answer."
Quentin: "What depository is she talking about?"
Oliver: "Well, I mean, the word could also mean 'storage.'"
Diggle: "So the three of them are looking for something the Triad is storing?"
Quentin: "Well, that could mean anything. The Triad's got stashes all over the city."
Oliver: "Whatever these three are looking for, they just killed an awful lot of people trying to find it. We want them to stop dropping bodies, we got to find it first."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Thea and Felicity discover Susan Williams' investigation into Oliver being the Green Arrow:
Felicity: "Hey! Long time, no see. What are you doing down here?"
Thea: "Oh, just some damage control. You have a minute?"
Felicity: "Yeah, for you anything. What's up?"
Thea: "Well, it's, um, Susan Williams."
Felicity: "Hmm."
Thea: "She's suspecting that Oliver's the Green Arrow."
Felicity: "Why? I mean, other than the fact that he is, but why?"
Thea: "I don't know. I mean, he says that she confronted him about it, and then he claims he put it to bed, but she's not just gonna drop this."
Felicity: "Agreed. What are we gonna do?"
Thea: "Hack into her computer and - and find out what's there and delete it."
Felicity: "Yeah, copy that. Susan Williams' computer. I'm in."
Thea: "That was fast."
Felicity: "Yeah. Well, her password is 1-2-3-4, and she has a file here named 'Oliver Queen info' because she's super original. Whoa."
Thea: "Oh, God. She - she has -"
Felicity: "Everything."
Thea: "She's been connecting the dots."
Felicity: "This entire time."
Thea: "We have to delete all this."
Felicity: "Well, even if we do, she got this from an outside source. She's just gonna be able to get it again and again."
Thea: "Okay. So what do we do?"

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Oliver gets Quentin's approval to name Dinah "Black Canary":
Quentin: "You know, you got to get that new girl a code name."
Oliver: "Well, when she's ready, I was considering 'Black Canary.' You all right with that?"
Quentin: "Well, so long as she does Laurel proud."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Quentin learns about Detective Malone's death:
Felicity: "What do you mean they were after you?"
Oliver: "Somehow... they found out about Billy."
Felicity: "What?"
Quentin: "Uh, I - I'm with her. What are - what are you talking about?"
Diggle: "Prometheus orchestrated things so Oliver would kill Billy Malone."
Quentin: "What?"
Oliver: "D.A. Chase decided that we should cover it up, but -"
Quentin: "But somehow, the ACU knows and thinks that you took out one of their own."
Oliver: "We're gonna have to handle this, but right now, every second that we're down here, that crew is getting closer to Church's money."
Felicity: "The more money they have, the more guns they can buy, more damage they can do."
Quentin: "Okay. Let me talk with Pike. I'll see if I can get him to stand down."
Oliver: "Quentin, I appreciate that, but I - I got to handle it this time."
Quentin: "Why?"
Oliver: "Because I'm the Mayor."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Oliver confronts Felicity about hacking Susan's computer:
Felicity: "Hey. Hey. What's going on?"
Oliver: "Did you hack Susan Williams' computer?"
Felicity: "Okay. Whoa. Whoa. Back up. You don't -"
Oliver: "Did you hack Susan Williams' computer?"
Felicity: "Yes."
Oliver: "What were you thinking?"
Felicity: "I was thinking that you were one news story away from being outed. Thea asked me to put a few things on Susan's computer."
Oliver: "Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Thea asked you?!"
Felicity: "Yes. I don't know what she was planning on doing. She said she had it handled. Why? What did she do?"

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Felicity tracks Enzo Russo:
Oliver (on phone): "Yeah?"
Felicity (on phone): "I got a GPS trace on Enzo Russo. Well, at least his cell phone."
Oliver (on phone): "Okay. Text me the address."
Felicity (on phone): "Um, shouldn't we let the team handle this, considering you're the - there's really no delicate way to put this - the S.C.P.D.'s Most Wanted?"
Oliver (on phone): "Text me the address."

514 (The Sin-Eater) – Felicity gives Dinah a mask to conceal her real identity:
Felicity: "All right. I traced Russo's cell to Oak Hill Memorial. John's already en route."
Rene: "Oak Hill Memorial. At least if we get shot, we don't have to go far."
Curtis: "That is really not an encouraging perspective, Rene."
Felicity (to Dinah): "Hey. Uh... just a quick note. Listen, um, now that you're a freshly minted officer of the S.C.P.D., we can't have you going out into the field and having your new co-workers recognize you. So -" (Hands her box)
Dinah: "This is gonna involve me wearing a costume, isn't it?"
Felicity: "Yeah. Something like that, yeah."
Dinah (opening box): "You know, I'm not - I'm not sure I'm ready to fill her shoes quite yet."
Felicity: "Oh, it's not shoes. It's a mask."

Edited March 9, 2020 by tv echo