S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[AwesomO4000]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

If I'm trying to get a hold of someone who does "good phone" and they don't answer, I'm surprised if I don't get a call back (even without leaving a message) within a couple of hours.  

Yup. There's definitely "good phone" and "not good phone." I personally don't like talking on the phone much. Meh. I'd rather talk in person. My Mom, however, loves talking on the phone (she likes to do the speaker phone thing, too, so that she can also do other things while talking which can be annoying). I especially don't like leaving voice messages... I'm terrible at it. My voice changes to this weird polite phone voice, and in the back of my mind I'm thinking "oh crap, this is being recorded" and my voice is high, and I can just imagine what it's going to sound like when they play the message back. Ugh. (I feel sorry actually for people who have to listen to me... because I sound different in my own head, but I hate hearing my voice on recording.) And don't get me started on texting - when hubby's driving, sometimes he has me text messages for him. I'm not a fan of texting at all.

Maybe Sam is one of those people who doesn't like talking on the phone much and would rather talk in person.

[Bella-UK]

After watching the previous episode I am curious to understand why the Men of Letters want the Colt?

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, SueB said:

ead and call me if they need him.  9 out of 10 times I'm the first call ANYWAY, but it's just our standard protocol to let the rest of the family know if someone is going to be unexpectedly out of contact.  Maybe Dean does phone better.  In my family, if the three of them are away from me, the first call goes to my son as he's most likely to pick up.  Second to my daughter, who may or maynot have the phone on silent, and third to my husband (who likely has the phone off or left it in the car).  It's just their phone habits.  If I'm trying to get a hold of someone who does "good phone" and they don't answer, I'm surprised if I don't get a call back (even without leaving a message) within a couple of hours.  In fact, I'd be worried, based on their known habits.

Bottom line -- in real life, seems pretty natural. In show context, not emphasized enough for me to decide it's a "thing"

I get that. I really really do. I have similar things. Most of us do I would imagine in this real world.

It's the nature of the world they live in that makes me side-eye that they don't have a system that says "Okay, Mom, you're out there in new weird world. If you are on a hunt and find yourself cornered by a hungry rugaru text or call Dean. If he doesn't reply in 3 minutes, text or call me!" 

I realize I'm alone on this island but it's weird and bothersome to me.  YMMV 

[Wynne88]

Moved to speculation.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Wynne88

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Regardless of anything else, I would think that Sam and Dean would want to let Mary know that Dean's phone is busted so that if she calls him and the phone goes straight to voicemail or something, she'll know that it's not because he's dead or there's some emergency that's made him go MIA. And of course at the same time, Sam would be like, "just call me instead," since he and Dean are going to be together any

I get that reasoning and if the line had been "I'll text Mom to let her know your phone is busted" period the end that in and of itself would have made a lot more sense. But they tacked on "if there is an emergency" as if Mary wouldn't be calling Sam for any other reason.  It's just something that bugs me and will continue to bug me until I get a scene of Mary and Sam having more bonding.

[bearcatfan]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yup. There's definitely "good phone" and "not good phone." I personally don't like talking on the phone much. Meh. I'd rather talk in person. My Mom, however, loves talking on the phone (she likes to do the speaker phone thing, too, so that she can also do other things while talking which can be annoying). I especially don't like leaving voice messages... I'm terrible at it. My voice changes to this weird polite phone voice, and in the back of my mind I'm thinking "oh crap, this is being recorded" and my voice is high, and I can just imagine what it's going to sound like when they play the message back. Ugh. (I feel sorry actually for people who have to listen to me... because I sound different in my own head, but I hate hearing my voice on recording.) And don't get me started on texting - when hubby's driving, sometimes he has me text messages for him. I'm not a fan of texting at all.

Maybe Sam is one of those people who doesn't like talking on the phone much and would rather talk in person.

I hate leaving messages as well! Even when I try to rehearse what I'm going to say before leaving the message, it never turns out how I expect. I have actually hung up without leaving a message, rehearsed the message and then called back. My daughter never answers the phone. We always call my SIL instead. He once answered up in a blind while deer hunting.

I'm not sure what to make of Sam and Mary and who contacts who anymore I thought I had an opinion, but I'm finding that I'm more open to other interpretations.

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Wrong but I think John shouted it in a moment of anger.  I don't think he meant it, as evidenced by John checking up on Sam.   He didn't want Sam out of his life, I just think he was too stubborn to admit he was wrong and didn't know how to reach out or take back what he said.

We don't know that John was checking up on Sam in a friendly way. There's also the possibility that he was checking to see if Sam was showing any effects from the demon blood. There's that horrible promise John got from Dean to protect Sam - or kill him.  John must have been willing to kill Sam himself if he saw demonic changes. Those thoughts would surely affect the way John related to Sam.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, auntvi said:

We don't know that John was checking up on Sam in a friendly way. There's also the possibility that he was checking to see if Sam was showing any effects from the demon blood. There's that horrible promise John got from Dean to protect Sam - or kill him.  John must have been willing to kill Sam himself if he saw demonic changes. Those thoughts would surely affect the way John related to Sam.

Eh, it's possible John had both reasons for checking up on him. But (and this is likely unpopular opinion) I've often thought that  part of the reason he made the deal with Yellow Eyes wasn't solely to save Dean's life but to pass on that horrible mission to Dean because he couldn't do it himself in the end. 

[rue721]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get that reasoning and if the line had been "I'll text Mom to let her know your phone is busted" period the end that in and of itself would have made a lot more sense. But they tacked on "if there is an emergency" as if Mary wouldn't be calling Sam for any other reason.  It's just something that bugs me and will continue to bug me until I get a scene of Mary and Sam having more bonding.

I think the idea is that Sam is letting Mary know that if she needs to get into contact with Dean, she should call Sam (because Dean and Sam will be together). I don't think he's saying that she can ONLY get in contact if it's an emergency, just saying that if she needs to get in contact with Dean, she still can, just via Sam for right now.

I don't think it's weird that when Sam tells Mary that she can't contact Dean via Dean's phone, he also gives her an alternate method to use to contact him (Dean). I'm not sure what you're seeing as strange? Not trying to pick on you at all @catrox14 :) Just trying to see what you're seeing.

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the idea is that Sam is letting Mary know that if she needs to get into contact with Dean, she should call Sam (because Dean and Sam will be together). I don't think he's saying that she can ONLY get in contact if it's an emergency, just saying that if she needs to get in contact with Dean, she still can, just via Sam for right now.

I don't think it's weird that when Sam tells Mary that she can't contact Dean via Dean's phone, he also gives her an alternate method to use to contact him (Dean). I'm not sure what you're seeing as strange? Not trying to pick on you at all @catrox14 :) Just trying to see what you're seeing.

I agree, I am the oldest and the only one out of 3 that answer the phone every time it rings. (I have 2 grown younger brothers with their own small kids) I kid around that if I am ever really in need I will have to call a friend because none of my family including my grown son and parents will answer the phone. Drives me more than a little batty!! Everyone calls me because I answer or call immediately back. They all even call me to check on each other, again makes me crazy! So no Sam calling Mary to tell her if she needs to talk to Dean to call his phone doesn't seem strange or out of place to me.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Diane

[SueB]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Regarding the spear, I think he's just parroting back what the interviewer asked him about Dean picking up the spear/wondering if it would come back into play. I don't that's going to happen, and I think if the question wasn't asked at all, he wouldn't have had to come up with a "remains to be seen" response, which pretty much means no.

But, yeah, confirmation of checklist writing. That's exactly what I thought when it happened.

As for the promise that the brothers - to include Dean - will actually appear in all five acts of one of his episodes, that's definitely a response to the complaints of his first episode where Dean leaves halfway through and never appears again until the end, with no explanation. My headcanon, which was infinitely more entertaining than the episode itself, is that Dean left to get lunch, did a little shopping, and maybe stopped for a massage. There certainly was enough time for him to do all that, so I like to think he went off and pampered himself.  Heh.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'checklist' writing or 'checking the box' but I think there's a difference between deciding a detail versus making a story around a plot point.  So, for example, if the point of the episode was: 'Sam killed a YED- equivalent', then I could see the argument that they write episodes to keep things equal between the boys.  But that was not the case.  The premise was 'a heist goes wrong'. Perez goes to lengths to show that they thought through everyone killing the big bad, and finally decided to give that to Sam since he hadn't killed a biggie like that before.  To me, that's paying attention to balance when working out the details. Who killed Ramiel was not the point of the episode, Ramiel obviously had to die and they had to pick who got the job.  The 'who' was just a side detail, not intrinsic the episode.

 

Hopefully that hat makes sense.  

Edited February 21, 2017 by SueB

[auntvi]

@catrox14 Oooooh, your mind works in very evil ways.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Hey @Wynne88, you might want to repost your comment over to the new Colt thread someone started.  I just didn't want it to get buried here.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to assume they plan to use it to kill something or someone, but they haven't yet told us who that is.  I didn't get from Mary's conversation with Ketch that she knows what their plans are, either, which is a bit disconcerting to me.  

Just an FYI, Bella, as you're getting used to the site, we normally ask these types of questions either in the specific episode thread, or in the All Episodes or Spoilers with Speculation threads.  I know it's hard getting used to a new sight.  But you'll absolutely get more answers to your questions if you join the ongoing discussions.  Just jump right in!

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, auntvi said:

@catrox14 Oooooh, your mind works in very evil ways.

It's more a function of hating John Winchester with the fire of 1000 suns.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'checklist' writing or 'checking the box' but I think there's a difference between deciding a detail versus making a story around a plot point.  So, for example, if the point of the episode was: 'Sam killed a YED- equivalent', then I could see the argument that they write episodes to keep things equal between the boys.  But that was not the case.  The premise was 'a heist goes wrong'. Perez goes to lengths to show that they thought through everyone killing the big bad, and finally decided to give that to Sam since he hadn't killed a biggie like that before.  To me, that's paying attention to balance when working out the details. Who killed Ramiel was not the point of the episode, Ramiel obviously had to die and they had to pick who got the job.  The 'who' was just a side detail, not intrinsic the episode.

Well, the writer said in the interview "that they gave the kill of the yellow-eyed demon to Sam because Dean killed one in Season 2", so yeah, in my book, that's ticking off - Dean killed one, so the next one goes to Sam.  Yes, it's not the purpose of the episode, and I doubt that anyone thought that it was. It's just those details that they IMO make sure are even - thus "ticking off". Obviously, views vary.

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Well, the writer said in the interview "that they gave the kill of the yellow-eyed demon to Sam because Dean killed one in Season 2", so yeah, in my book, that's ticking off - Dean killed one, so the next one goes to Sam.  Yes, it's not the purpose of the episode, and I doubt that anyone thought that it was. It's just those details that they IMO make sure are even - thus "ticking off". Obviously, views vary.

I wish I had your confidence in that (the emphasized part).

Let me say it slightly differently, there is not a "to do" list.  There's no list they keep that says Dean has x number of kills or y number of heroic moments so Sam must have x kills or y heroic moments.  As to "so the next one goes to Sam" -- if it fits within the story (i.e. anyone in the room could have been the one to kill Ramiel) then okay.  But they don't have some master list that says "Dean has 'done a thing' so we need an opportunity for Sam to 'do a thing' ". It's more happenstance than pre-planned.  A checklist implies pre-planing IMO.  

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

I wish I had your confidence in that (the emphasized part).

Let me say it slightly differently, there is not a "to do" list.  There's no list they keep that says Dean has x number of kills or y number of heroic moments so Sam must have x kills or y heroic moments.  As to "so the next one goes to Sam" -- if it fits within the story (i.e. anyone in the room could have been the one to kill Ramiel) then okay.  But they don't have some master list that says "Dean has 'done a thing' so we need an opportunity for Sam to 'do a thing' ". It's more happenstance than pre-planned.  A checklist implies pre-planing IMO.  

Is it a checklist on the whiteboard? Probably not.  If Perez is saying they had to distill it down to Dean killed Azazel so Sam kills the new YED then yeah I think there are some broad elements they are seeking to include like having the brothers on more even footing in their heroism and anti-heroism.

[Aeryn13]

Responding over in the Bitterness thread. 

[Wayward Son]

Honestly, I don't think the writers can win. If they don't make an attempt to keep things even then fans create theories where they must hate the character with the lesser feats. If they do attempt to keep things even then that's checklist making and a terrible form of writing too. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I don't think the writers can win. If they don't make an attempt to keep things even then they must hate the character with the lesser feats. If they do attempt to keep things even then that's checklist making and a terrible form of writing too. 

Honestly, I wish they would just pick a SL, write what they want to write, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the story doesn't please any particular segment of viewers well, then I guess viewers will make a decision. 

I do have to wonder how much they are crowd-sourcing their SL these days. Jim Michaels tweeted out a couple of days ago saying they were thinking about s13 already and who would folks on Twitter like to see come back.

I dunno.

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, I wish they would just pick a SL, write what they want to write, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the story doesn't please any particular segment of viewers well, then I guess viewers will make a decision. 

I do have to wonder how much they are crowd-sourcing their SL these days. Jim Michaels tweeted out a couple of days ago saying they were thinking about s13 already and who would folks on Twitter like to see come back.

I dunno.

I'm going to move this to the All Episodes thread :)

[SueB]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, I wish they would just pick a SL, write what they want to write, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the story doesn't please any particular segment of viewers well, then I guess viewers will make a decision. 

I do have to wonder how much they are crowd-sourcing their SL these days. Jim Michaels tweeted out a couple of days ago saying they were thinking about s13 already and who would folks on Twitter like to see come back.

I dunno.

Jim was click-baiting. Bless him, he has very little influence on content.  Although to his credit he DID get more disabled people representation in a few scenes.  And that was a great thing.  But Jim doesn't effect story. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Jim was click-baiting. Bless him, he has very little influence on content.  Although to his credit he DID get more disabled people representation in a few scenes.  And that was a great thing.  But Jim doesn't effect story. 

He might not effect the story directly as a writer, but I'd be surprised if he didn't pass on the results of that "clickbait" topic to the folks who do.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He might not effect the story directly as a writer, but I'd be surprised if he didn't pass on the results of that "clickbait" topic to the folks who do.

Absolutely. Wouldn't be surprised if he made a spreadsheet and ran it straight over to Singer.  I'm not joking.  But now think of Singer's reaction.  

Actually, he'd be polite and say that's really interesting.  Maybe it'll have a subliminal effect.  

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Absolutely. Wouldn't be surprised if he made a spreadsheet and ran it straight over to Singer.  I'm not joking.  But now think of Singer's reaction.  

Actually, he'd be polite and say that's really interesting.  Maybe it'll have a subliminal effect.  

I don't know what Singer would think or do. He's actually the producer I side-eye the most with things that bug me about the show, so I can't say what he would do or not do. He's an engima to me LOL

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I don't think the writers can win. If they don't make an attempt to keep things even then fans create theories where they must hate the character with the lesser feats. If they do attempt to keep things even then that's checklist making and a terrible form of writing too. 

The problem is the way Perez framed his answer its not exactly rocket science that some in the fandom are going to go on the defensive and see it as a Sam vs Dean thing.  He basically said, yup  Sam got the kill because Dean got one.  

[Myrelle]

Quote

Dean picking up the broken lance was our way of still nodding to the connection between him and Michael… whether or not that pays in some way remains to be seen.

Taking my response to the Bitterness Thread.

[bozodegama]

After watching this episode a few times, I thought it was a classic.  I loved all the reservoir dogs references.  That's a few episodes in a row where it appears that Cass is saying goodbye.  I think that's four great episodes in a row, First blood, Lily Sunder, Regarding Dean and Stuck in the Middle with you.  I love the writing this season compared to last season.   But that's just me.  I'm just not that critical because it's the best show on TV,hands down and I'll be so sad when it ends.    

[Mick Lady]

I'm only on page 7, but wanted to ask this. Mick and I just rewatched, and I was wondering; If the boys do manage to repair "The Lance", would Cas's wounds come back? Unexpected consequences and all, which this show loves!

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, Wayward Son said:

You're right. Dean and Sam remain the one true vessel for Michael and Dean, especially Dean.

Unless they retcon it further, canon has established that a vessel is capable of being possessed by any Angel that is equal to or weaker than the Angel it is designed for indefinitely. If a stronger Angel tries to possess that vessel then it will ultimately lead to the vessels destruction. The rate of that destruction is dependent on the difference in strength between the Angel that vessel belongs to and the one attempting to possess. For instance if an archangel tried to possess a vessel designed for a grunt Angel it would likely cause an instanteous explosion. While if an archangel tried to possess the vessel of a seraph (like Lucifer did with Cas) then that vessel could contain them for months maybe even years. The point though is that the vessel will ultimately be destroyed and the archangel would never be able to access their full power lest they destroy it earlier than necessary. 

Michael is the strongest Angel in the universe, which makes Dean the strongest vessel in the world. There is quite literally no Angel that Dean's body couldn't hold indefinitely if Dean allowed it. Sam is likewise the second strongest vessel in the world because he is the one true vessel for Lucifer, the second strongest Angel in the world. The only Angel he couldn't hold indefinitely is Michael. Since there are no other angels equal to or greater than Michael and Lucifer they can't be replaced with other vessels. Those we have seen such as John, Adam, Nick and Castiel are cheap substitutes at best. 

At least that's my understanding of things at any rate :)

I really like this Wayward Son! Great analysis!

[catrox14]

Something just occurred to me.

Is Mary soulless? Could Amara have not bothered to make sure she was all together together when she brought her back? Or maybe Amara snarfed Mary's soul before returning her to Earth?

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:49 PM, rue721 said:

I agree that her threat rang completely hollow. The thing is that Mary herself must know that she's bluffing. Even while she was doing her whole tough girl "that's not a threat, that's a promise" routine, she was handing the Colt right over. She was cooperating, and her supposed threat about "if this happens again..." made it clear that she would be working with them again, and cooperating with them again.

I do think that Mary is out of her league, but I find it hard to believe that she herself doesn't realize that. She let the BMOL throw herself and her sons to the wolves, and she obediently went right back to them -- Colt in hand -- immediately afterward. That doesn't seem to me like someone who thinks she's in control.

My best guess is that that's someone who is trying to appease the bully because she thinks that's the smartest/safest play. But honestly, I have no idea what Mary is up to. I think she knows she's playing with fire but I don't know what she thinks she's going to do or what's going to happen when she inevitably gets burned.

This is also the woman who was willing to make the deal with Azazel in the first place, disregarding the collateral damage that it could cause and I guess assuming that she'd just deal with the blowback herself when it came. I think she's probably looking at her "deal" with the BMOL the same way, and making the same mistakes.

I agree with all of this Rue! What is Mary's end-game?!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or maybe Amara snarfed Mary's soul before returning her to Earth?

Snarfed.   ROTFLMAO!

And now, for some reason, I'm picturing Amara as ALF.

[companionenvy]

I'm pretty confident Mary has her soul. I mean, she came pretty close to blowing her brains out to save the boys from Billie's threat two episodes ago. Beyond that, she simply hasn't done anything to make me think she's anything other than a flawed and mixed-up hunter trying to figure out where she fits in in this new world. Even when she risked Sam and Dean by not giving up the Colt last episode, as far as I can tell her motivation seems to be giving her sons the chance at a normal life, not apathy or curiosity, as in the case of Soulless Sam letting Dean get turned. 

[rue721]

11 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I agree with all of this Rue! What is Mary's end-game?!

Man, I have no clue.

Probably she wants to go back in time and kill Azazel before he could make a mess of her family and her life. That's my best guess, especially considering the Colt is in play. And considering she is trying to keep everything a secret from Sam and Dean -- I mean, I assume she wouldn't feel comfortable letting them know she's about to try and retroactively change their lives and make it so they are totally unlike their current selves.

Did any of you guys watch Smallville? There was always this thing with Lex where his father would tell him that he was hard on him to strengthen him (obviously not true, Lionel was simply a domineering sadist), and then when Lex would inevitably survive things that really should have killed him (like being trapped alone on a desert island for months after a plane crash), Lex would credit Lionel for toughening him up and making him such a survivor. He would say things like, if I'd had any other father, I wouldn't have survived.

It makes me wonder what would have become of Sam and Dean's survival skills and just ability to get through life (or get the world through apocalyptic threat after apocalyptic threat) if THEY had had a different upbringing. Would a "softer" non-hunter Sam and Dean have been stronger or weaker? Would the world have been stronger or weaker without them?

Oh, and THAT kind of reminds me of It's a Wonderful Life. Maybe they'll do a homage to THAT movie next ;)

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

It makes me wonder what would have become of Sam and Dean's survival skills and just ability to get through life (or get the world through apocalyptic threat after apocalyptic threat) if THEY had had a different upbringing. Would a "softer" non-hunter Sam and Dean have been stronger or weaker? Would the world have been stronger or weaker without them?

Isn't that What Is and What Should Never Be?  Even if that was just Dean's version that the djinn pulled from his mind (and isn't it sad that he thought he would be a loser without hunting?)

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm pretty confident Mary has her soul. I mean, she came pretty close to blowing her brains out to save the boys from Billie's threat two episodes ago. Beyond that, she simply hasn't done anything to make me think she's anything other than a flawed and mixed-up hunter trying to figure out where she fits in in this new world. Even when she risked Sam and Dean by not giving up the Colt last episode, as far as I can tell her motivation seems to be giving her sons the chance at a normal life, not apathy or curiosity, as in the case of Soulless Sam letting Dean get turned. 

I'm not saying Mary doesn't have her soul, it ws just a ponderance. That said, just because she was going to blow her brains out to save the boys doesn't mean she's not soulless. Sam made what he thought were logical if ruthless  choices when he was soulless if it got the job done more efficiently. She may have decided that her death was the most pragmatic logical option.

Mary  didn't ask to be brought back. She's been unable and IMO unwilling to really bond with her grown children. No, she doesn't have to be emotional on the surface to love them but I don't think she wants to bond with them on a deeper level. I also think she doesn't have much empathy for her children at least none that has been demonstrated on screen. I don't think she wants to be here anymore given her "since when is life about getting what you want" retort to Sam.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Isn't that What Is and What Should Never Be?  Even if that was just Dean's version that the djinn pulled from his mind (and isn't it sad that he thought he would be a loser without hunting?)

Didn't Dean remember his own life (as a hunter) in that episode, though?

In any case, I don't think he was a loser in that episode! Nice house, nice relationship, working in or running what I assume was the family business (auto shop)...Seems pretty great?

ETA Maybe it's more like It's a Terrible Life, but in that episode everything was orchestrated by Zachariah. So it was a fake world, not what the world or their own lives would actually have been like if they'd never become hunters.

Edited February 23, 2017 by rue721

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Didn't Dean remember his own life (as a hunter) in that episode, though?

I don't think he was a loser in that episode! Nice house, nice relationship, working in or running what I assume was the family business (auto shop)...Seems pretty great?

The "real" Dean remembered his life as a hunter.  But the life he was put in was the one he'd imagined as growing up in without hunting.  And yeah, nice house, nice relationship--but apparently he lost a lot of money to bookies, everyone kept assuming he was drunk (again), as a teen had stolen Sam's credit card and girlfriend (and Sam seemed disappointed but not surprised that he was stealing mom's silverware)...and Mary was surprised that he'd offered to mow the lawn, as if he'd never been much help before.  I think the trappings of nice house and nice girlfriend in the present were to convince him to stay (I think I read that Kripke originally wanted him to be a genuine loser with nothing, to show he was nothing without hunting, but others convinced him that in that case he wouldn't want to stay in that world.)  

Edited February 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Isn't that What Is and What Should Never Be?  Even if that was just Dean's version that the djinn pulled from his mind (and isn't it sad that he thought he would be a loser without hunting?)

That wasnt Deans buried version of his life or even a life that Dean necessarily wanted or imagined. It was a fake world the djinn made from one wish Dean had that Mary never died.  The djinn created that life out of Deans random memories. He made his gf out the memory of the beer model. That didn't mean Dean wished she really was his GF but a nurse instead of a model. Dean had memories of working on his car so the djinn made him a gainfully employed mechanic. Dean has memories of drinking alcohol A LOT, which the djinn used againt Dean by having his family remind him that he drinks too much which Dean knows about himself. Dean didn't wish for a separation from Sam but he has memories of being separated from Sam when Sam went to school. John ws still dead in the djinn verse.

I just don't see where Dean saw himself as a loser without hunting in the djinnverse or as a sales and marketing director.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

just don't see where Dean saw himself as a loser without hunting in the djinnverse or as a sales and marketing director.

Sure, the djinn picked and chose from Dean's memory.  But if he really wanted him to stay in his dreamverse, wouldn't he have picked some happier memories?  That's what he seemed to do with the girl who was also trapped.  It's not like the season 8 djinn that fed off fear and negative emotions.

We know Dean had good memories, especially with Sam, when they were close.   Why would the djinn pick memories that made him seem a disappointment to his family if those weren't foremost in Dean's mind?  (Again, it was Kripke's idea to make him a loser in that world, so you can blame that on him!)

About Dean's It's a Terrible Life persona...he wasn't a loser there, just a completely different person, and one that the "real" Dean wouldn't want to be.  Zach was just trying to get him to realize that he actually enjoyed hunting (which was probably part his character, as a risk-taker/adrenaline junkie, and part his upbringing, which gave him a useful outlet for it.)  

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Again, it was Kripke's

Taking my reply to the All episodes thread.

[catrox14]

So Mary's plan here as was being discussed in the Mary thread....quoting myself and

@bearcatfan

Quote

But this was Mary's game plan not Deans. It's like Mary was playing football and they were playing baseball.

If she had told her players what the purpose of them doing what she was telling them to do was so she could sneak into the house and get the Colt they may have done something different.

 

Quote

 

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

 

If Mary had revealed her goal of stealing the Colt from this house, she could have had more eyeballs on the prize and realized this might be more to the story than meets the eye.

And sure she didn't know that the demon was a new YED but the point is that she didn't give her team the right information. She did a separate op and 1 team member was killed and another almost killed. 

[bearcatfan]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So Mary's plan here as was being discussed in the Mary thread....quoting myself and

@bearcatfan

 

If Mary had revealed her goal of stealing the Colt from this house, she could have had more eyeballs on the prize and realized this might be more to the story than meets the eye.

And sure she didn't know that the demon was a new YED but the point is that she didn't give her team the right information. She did a separate op and 1 team member was killed and another almost killed. 

Agreed. But if she only needed the colt, she could have taken it in the 10 - 12 hours he was gone fishing without calling anyone in at all. I understand that they usually kill all demons, except Crowley, but it just doesn't make sense to me. We don't know how Ramiel knew the colt was gone, but it's reasonable to assume that he checked to see if anything was missing as it is also probable that there weren't any cow mutilations or missing virgins. What I mean is that he likely checked knowing that he hadn't been giving off any flashing demon signs. If Mary takes the colt early in his fishing period, she could be 2 states away before he comes home and without people waiting for him in his home, there's no reason to check on the colt. It could have been days/weeks/months before he knew it was gone.

Mary knew he was doing nothing but fishing. She had been staking the place out. Cas even questioned killing a demon that was fishing. Why risk killing a demon who was not harming anyone when all you want is the colt? You are correct that if she told the others that the colt was the main objective, they could have come up with a plan to get the colt and then disappear. Would he really know who took it if he didn't see who was in his house?

That brings up another question though. How did she not realize there were other demons around?

[MysteryGuest]

I don't see Sam or Dean agreeing to give the Colt to the BMOL, so I have to assume Mary figured the same thing.  They'd never go along with it.  But if it was supposed to be just a random demon hunt, then it does make the whole setup a bit suspect.  We've never seen them take out random demons this way, and it certainly wouldn't normally take 5 of them to do it.  Ordinarily, this would have pinged big time for Sam and Dean, I think, but then we wouldn't have had our story. 

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Mary knew he was doing nothing but fishing. She had been staking the place out. Cas even questioned killing a demon that was fishing. Why risk killing a demon who was not harming anyone when all you want is the colt? You are correct that if she told the others that the colt was the main objective, they could have come up with a plan to get the colt and then disappear. Would he really know who took it if he didn't see who was in his house?

Mary knew Sam and Dean wouldn't go in for stealing the Colt only to hand it over to Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags. And, they'd probably not go in for the theft and leaving the demon behind alive either. That's why she called Wally in the first place; so Sam and Dean wouldn't ask the questions she didn't want to answer.

32 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

That brings up another question though. How did she not realize there were other demons around?

It seems they weren't around until after they "bothered" Ramiel. Either there was some sort of supernatural alarm system they tripped or Ramiel somehow sent Crowley a signal because I don't think the demons were there before. Plus, Mary relied on the BMoL intel instead of gathering her own. 

[catrox14]

I was re-watching this and something stood out to me.

Ramiel said the Lance of Michael was a weapon that Michael created to kill one angel that he hated and wanted to suffer. I don't think that meant Lucifer because Michael never said he wanted Lucifer to suffer and he never said he hated Lucifer in fact he said he loved him and didn't want to kill him but Guck commanded it.

So that leaves me wonder if it's not Lucifer, which angel was that weapon meant for? Castiel?

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was re-watching this and something stood out to me.

Ramiel said the Lance of Michael was a weapon that Michael created to kill one angel that he hated and wanted to suffer. I don't think that meant Lucifer because Michael never said he wanted Lucifer to suffer and he never said he hated Lucifer in fact he said he loved him and didn't want to kill him but Guck commanded it.

So that leaves me wonder if it's not Lucifer, which angel was that weapon meant for? Castiel?

I'd honestly say Lucifer in spite of those quotes. All the bending over the years like the Grand Canyon debacle, the easily accessed purgatory portal and this weeks episode have made me a bit cynical over the years.

Setting Lucifer aside, even if it wasn't him, I don't think it would have been Castiel. I honestly always got the impression Michael saw him as little more than a nuisance he needed to deal with. I don't think he'd care enough about (or place enough importance on) Cas to make a weapon just to make him suffer.  

Edited February 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So that leaves me wonder if it's not Lucifer, which angel was that weapon meant for? Castiel?

My pick is Gabriel. I can totally see Mr. Serious Michael not only to kill him but to make him suffer :P