S03.E13: It's War

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, harmfulhazards said:

According to Annalise's phone records the fire happened on Nov 3. Not sure how much time passed over the recent episodes, but it might still be November.

That's odd because the students just took midterms. Connor getting drunk celebrating passing is what made Oliver remember Connor coming to him dramatized after burning Sam's body. Maybe December is when they found Sam's body

2 hours ago, secnarf said:

Why was she on the phone with Hannah Keating for 9 minutes that day?

They showed that in a flashback and ep or 2 ago. When AK was drinking in front of the fireplace she called Hannah and told her she could have the house.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Does anyone have a screenshot of the phone records Oliver was looking at?

Linked above.

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm on Annalise's side too, but come on.  Annalise's group has killed Lilah, Sam, Rebecca, Mahoney, and the previous ADA.  Annalise has orchestrated the cover up of all of these murders.  Annalise framed Catherine Hapstall for a crime she didn't commit, and Catherine will be in jail for a long time.  Annalise has been playing dirty and manipulating the DA's office for years.  

I dislike the DA's office and I'm rooting against them, but they have good reason to distrust, dislike, and disbelieve every word that comes out of Annalise's mouth, as well as her entourage.   In a way, Annalise is reaping what she's sown. 

We, the audience know all of this, but does the DA's office?  As far as "reaping what she's sown."  If people really reaped what they have sown, a lot of people would be in prison today, who aren't.  

[harmfulhazards]

18 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

That's odd because the students just took midterms. Connor getting drunk celebrating passing is what made Oliver remember Connor coming to him dramatized after burning Sam's body. Maybe December is when they found Sam's body

I'm not sure about exact dates, but the news about human remains belonging to Sam Keating went public no earlier than January. It happened right after K5 returned to studies after Christmas and New Year break.

[Milaxx]

23 minutes ago, harmfulhazards said:

I'm not sure about exact dates, but the news about human remains belonging to Sam Keating went public no earlier than January. It happened right after K5 returned to studies after Christmas and New Year break.

The date on the news article that Oliver pulled up was Dec 2014. Ep 3x9

 

24 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

We, the audience know all of this, but does the DA's office?  As far as "reaping what she's sown."  If people really reaped what they have sown, a lot of people would be in prison today, who aren't.  

 

Catherine Hapstall is/was not completely innocent either. She provided the alibi for her brother for after he murdered their aunt. At the very least that makes her an accessory after the fact. Since Philip came forward with the evidence proving that Caleb murdered his parents and aunt, chances are Catherine's sentence was likely reduced. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Milaxx

[Neurochick]

Just wanted to say that I didn't "say" the second quote attributed to me, that was Redheadzombie.

[harmfulhazards]

3 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

The date on the news article that Oliver pulled up was Dec 2014. Ep 3x9

Right. I just rewatched that scene. The article about Sam reported missing was from 14 Dec. And the article about remains identified as Sam's was 8 Jan. The remains were discovered on New Year's Eve according to it.

[Milaxx]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Just wanted to say that I didn't "say" the second quote attributed to me, that was Redheadzombie.

Yeah it switched it when I quoted it and it's darn near impossible to edit out a quote text on this site.

[RedheadZombie]

9 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

We, the audience know all of this, but does the DA's office?  As far as "reaping what she's sown."  If people really reaped what they have sown, a lot of people would be in prison today, who aren't.  

My post was a general response to the multiple comments of posters here who are outraged that Annalise is being treated very unfairly.  My comments were specifically referencing the bad blood Annalise has sown with the DA's office for a decade or two, which involved lies, obstruction, murder cover ups, framing clients, and the dirty tricks she's famous for.  She is now reaping the backlash from that office.  For pete's sake, Annalise's crew killed the last ADA, and she orchestrated the cover up.    

I thought I was clear in my comment that I was referring to the characters of this show, not the  real life cluster fuck of this country's criminal justice system.  Hope this clears it up. 

[Milaxx]

2 minutes ago, harmfulhazards said:

Right. I just rewatched that scene. The article about Sam reported missing was from 14 Dec. And the article about remains identified as Sam's was 8 Jan. The remains were discovered on New Year's Eve according to it.

Okay but the dates still feel off. The bonfire and such were ll shown to be closer to the holiday's. I was under the impression these events were supposed to be year later, and now we're in a timeline approximately 11 mths later instead. I'm probably being nitpicky. {{{shrug}}}

[RedheadZombie]

12 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

The date on the news article that Oliver pulled up was Dec 2014. Ep 3x9

 

 

Catherine Hapstall is was not completely innocent either. She provided the alibi for her brother for after he murdered their aunt. At the very least that makes her an accessory after the fact. Since Philip came forward with the evidence proving that Caleb murdered his parents and aunt, chances are Catherine's sentence was likely reduced. 

Yes, which is the same crime that Annalise has done multiple times, and Anna has yet to be convicted of anything.  Catherine may not be completely innocent, but Annalise set her up for a murder she had nothing to do with.  I'm rooting for Annalise and her crew, and I dislike the DAs office, but I'm not outraged that Anna is getting a taste of her own medicine.  She's running up against people just as sneaky and manipulative as she is, and she's not used to that. 

[Milaxx]

I don't disagree about AK, just pointing out that Catherine like pretty much everyone on this show was not a complete innocent.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

We, the audience know all of this, but does the DA's office? 

We don't necessarily know everything from the D.A.'s Office's perspective, but I think it's fair to say that:

It believes that Sam killed Lila because she was pregnant with his child, and that thus it's possible that AK knew that or even was a co-conspirator.

It believed/believes that Nate killed Sam in cahoots with AK. It even prosecuted Nate for the murder unsuccessfully on the theory that Nate and AK did it together. (Why they then hired him for any position, or for that matter why he accepted a job, is beyond me. In fact he should be sipping umbrella drinks on a beach somewhere with his settlement from the lawsuit he filed for false arrest.)

ADA Smugface looked into Asher and found out about the sexual assault at his party. I don't think it's a stretch to think she did some background on all the K5 and has information that we aren't privy to. Indeed, DA Denver claimed that they had dossiers on all of them and Oliver seemingly confirmed that there were such files.  ADA Smugface just chose Asher because he was most vulnerable.

 It probably suspects something fishy about the whole death of ADA Smugface and the Hapstall situation. 

It knows about AK hitting her client. 

[Keepitmoving]

I just don't get why Connor didn't call someone if he found Wes dead in that basement. Well, it looked like they were in the basement anyway. He didn't have his cell, but the house had a phone. I mean he didn't care for Wes, but no one was around to hear it when he threatened him. So, there is no pattern of behavior nor speech on the record that proves he wanted to do Wes any bodily harm. No one heard the threat. So it would be a leap to say well, he wasn't close to Wes, he didn't like him, therefore he must have killed him.  Please, there's always people at school and/or work who you don't like, that's human nature. So why would he be that spooked about finding him dead that he couldn't call someone for help? I mean, he took the time to try and revive him, but then didn't call 911?  He had a good reason to be in that house because he was summoned by Anna, and Oliver has the proof that she summoned them.

 So I don't get it. If he didn't do it, what gives?

And who did Laurel see exactly running out of that house? Because from no angle do Frank and Connor look alike, not one angle so.... and she was sure it was a man.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It believed/believes that Nate killed Sam in cahoots with AK.

If so, that makes Atwood hooking up with him rather more unethical (and crazy) than it already was.
 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why they then hired him for any position, or for that matter why he accepted a job, is beyond me.

This too.

28 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I just don't get why Connor didn't call someone if he found Wes dead in that basement.

Maybe he found Wes, still alive, and immediately began trying to revive him with CPR. He didn't have his cell, and he probably felt like he didn't want to stop CPR to go and call the house phone.

However, he should also have expected other people to be arriving soon, since they were all supposed to be meeting there. If he heard someone come in while he was doing chest compressions, you'd think he would have called to them to call 911 and/or help him.

So I think probably he concluded Wes was not responding, and gave up before anyone else arrived.

Or maybe he felt like he messed up the compressions and accidentally killed him by breaking a rib and puncturing a lung and panicked about being blamed because of that.

We don't know what time it was. He could also have sat there for a while in shock, with no one else showing up, and then left to clear his head or calm himself or find the others. We don't know that he ran and was the person Laurel claims to have seen leaving.

There's also a possibility Wes was murdered in the house, Connor witnessed it, and then after the murderer left, he rushed to try to save him.

Or, as has previously been speculated about Laurel, he was involved in an altercation that accidentally killed Wes, and is covering it up because he doesn't trust the others not to blame him.

I really hope he's not the murderer, though.

[helenamonster]

On 2/17/2017 at 5:35 PM, Keepitmoving said:

In the flash forward it did look like Connor and Wes were on the floor of the basement. Which leads me to still question why it seemed like Laurel knew that Wes was in that house when she wrote his name on that paper in the hospital.

We'll have the full answer to this next week, but I think it's safe to assume that Laurel saw Wes's body before the house blew up, because she was found in the basement.

She also might have been the one to (accidentally) kill him. Either way, she definitely saw his body before the fire.

On 2/17/2017 at 5:42 PM, LaJefaza said:

I agree with this totally. Wes was the love of her life for what, 30 minutes? With all her accusations and excoriation of those she deems unworthy of mourning him, she didn't care much for him either, not too long ago. She was also one of the people who didn't treat him all that well. I'm not saying their relationship wasn't genuine (for the 5 minutes it existed), but just the other day she was fraught with 'deep' feelings for Frank too, and now she's all My Heart Will Go On over Wes? I'm not saying she felt NOTHING for Wes, I'm just wondering if she was also partially chastising herself when she was giving that eulogy.  

Laurel and Wes became friends/allies pretty quickly during their first year, and even if their relationship had never turned romantic at the eleventh hour, they would have still been close and his death would have seriously affected her.

The other thing is that the relationships between all of the K5, Annalise, Bonnie, and Frank are so heightened and intense given the stuff they've gone through together. Even Michaela and Asher, who were not at all close to Wes, were severely shaken by his death.

Laurel also made a comment to Annalise along the lines of "one of us" dying, either speaking about the K5 or the "family" as a whole. I think everyone is freaked that the pile of bodies this group as accumulated over the past year and a half now includes one of their own. As far as they're concerned, what happened to Wes could have happened to any of them, and it still might.

Someone pointed out upthread that even though Annalise has sacrificed a lot to help the kiddos, they are all still struggling with the fact that their lives were much better before they met her. It's not entirely fair to blame everything that has happened on Annalise, but I think it is understandable that they all do. If you asked any of the K4 to pinpoint the exact moment in their life when shit started to hit the fan, I'd bet they'd all say, "When Annalise Keating picked me to be one of her interns." It's a matter of causation vs. correlation, but I can't blame them for seeing her as the common denominator of all their problems.

On 2/17/2017 at 8:30 PM, starri said:

Unless, as I suspect may be more likely, we see her lose the baby, as a parallel to Annalise.

They dropped those anvils nice and heavy, didn't they? It's the only thing that keeps me wondering if the Mahoneys may indeed be involved, so that Annalise and Laurel can share that "bond" of losing an unborn child because of them. Not to mention that Wes is tied up in their respective baby dramas as well; I think Annalise will always link the loss of her real son to her relationship with Wes, since she lost Sam Jr. while trying to help Wes's mother, and by extension him. Then to make up for how she ruined his life so early on, she got him off the waitlist at Middleton, which led to a whole string of fuckery resulting in his own death in her house. I'm not crazy about it, but ending the whole thing with Laurel losing her's and Wes's baby would be a rather fitting ending to whole Annalise/Wes saga.

23 hours ago, possibilities said:

Do we know for sure that Laurel saw a man leaving, or could that be just another part of her lie to the detectives when she wanted to implicate Frank?

I suspect we'll find out next week. Because with this show, unless we see it happen, there's no guarantee that it did. It's why I keep forgetting that Frank killed Mahoney. That's the one instance I can think of where the show insists a big moment is canon without showing us it happened.

22 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm on Annalise's side too, but come on.  Annalise's group has killed Lilah, Sam, Rebecca, Mahoney, and the previous ADA.  Annalise has orchestrated the cover up of all of these murders.  Annalise framed Catherine Hapstall for a crime she didn't commit, and Catherine will be in jail for a long time.  Annalise has been playing dirty and manipulating the DA's office for years.  

I dislike the DA's office and I'm rooting against them, but they have good reason to distrust, dislike, and disbelieve every word that comes out of Annalise's mouth, as well as her entourage.   In a way, Annalise is reaping what she's sown. 

All of this. I root for Annalise and her underlings because they are the protagonists and for all of their faults, I enjoy watching them (even the ones I don't like at all, like Connor and Frank), but they've all got a lot of chickens that need to come home to roost. I don't want it to happen anytime soon, because that would mean the show is over, but I can't blame anybody for looking at this group of people, with all these bodies leading to their front doors, and getting suspicious.

3 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Okay but the dates still feel off. The bonfire and such were ll shown to be closer to the holiday's. I was under the impression these events were supposed to be year later, and now we're in a timeline approximately 11 mths later instead. I'm probably being nitpicky. {{{shrug}}}

Here is the whole show timeline as far as I understand it:

Season 1 began in late August 2014 (I wanna say Lila's body was found like the 26 or 29) and stretched to January/February 2015.

Season 2 took place over a very short amount of time, just a few months. It ended around May 2015, just before the kids took their final exams for their first year.

Right now I am a little bit at a loss to where we are, because I'm having trouble figuring out how much time has passed since the fire. That same day, the pro bono clinic found out that they all got As for their exam. Now was that a midterm, or because it was a clinic, and not a class, did it end earlier than their other classes? Also, Michaela said something in this episode about "being back at school." We know the school was willing to give them some time off to deal with their loss, but how long was that? If I had to guess, I'd say it's still November 2015, in their first semester of their second year.

[Milaxx]

4 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

Here is the whole show timeline as far as I understand it:

Season 1 began in late August 2014 (I wanna say Lila's body was found like the 26 or 29) and stretched to January/February 2015.

Season 2 took place over a very short amount of time, just a few months. It ended around May 2015, just before the kids took their final exams for their first year.

Right now I am a little bit at a loss to where we are, because I'm having trouble figuring out how much time has passed since the fire. That same day, the pro bono clinic found out that they all got As for their exam. Now was that a midterm, or because it was a clinic, and not a class, did it end earlier than their other classes? Also, Michaela said something in this episode about "being back at school." We know the school was willing to give them some time off to deal with their loss, but how long was that? If I had to guess, I'd say it's still November 2015, in their first semester of their second year.

I think what's throwing me off is season 1 had Sam's murder & the bonfire closer to the holidays. There were Christmas songs playing and Connor even sang one while they were driving to dispose of the body. Shortly after that K5 gang went home for Christmas. This season Oliver cautions Connor or drinking too much saying something along the lines of "this time last year". Yet the dates we've seen have make it appear as if it's not even Thanksgiving yet. AK's phone record place the house fire at 11/3, Oliver was looking at job postings dated 11/15 & 11/16.  So from the date we've seen yes, it's mid November. I think the "this time last year" is what's throwing me off.

57 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I just don't get why Connor didn't call someone if he found Wes dead in that basement. Well, it looked like they were in the basement anyway. He didn't have his cell, but the house had a phone. I mean he didn't care for Wes, but no one was around to hear it when he threatened him. So, there is no pattern of behavior nor speech on the record that proves he wanted to do Wes any bodily harm. No one heard the threat. So it would be a leap to say well, he wasn't close to Wes, he didn't like him, therefore he must have killed him.  Please, there's always people at school and/or work who you don't like, that's human nature. So why would he be that spooked about finding him dead that he couldn't call someone for help? I mean, he took the time to try and revive him, but then didn't call 911?  He had a good reason to be in that house because he was summoned by Anna, and Oliver has the proof that she summoned them.

 So I don't get it. If he didn't do it, what gives?

And who did Laurel see exactly running out of that house? Because from no angle do Frank and Connor look alike, not one angle so.... and she was sure it was a man.

Perhaps there wasn't time. Maybe Connor came in either found Wes on the floor or they had a fight and he got knocked out and he then started CPR, heard someone coming (Laurel) and ran. Laurel starts to go to Wes and the house explodes. So now Connor is outside the house, still does not have his cell, or maybe Connor is the one who called in the fire at AK. Other than it being a man, I'm not sure Laurel knows who she saw running out. I think she has told herself it was Frank because she's mad at him and let's face it, setting the fire is the sort of thing Frank would do. Honestly with this show, I wouldn't be surprised f it turned out to be a woman dressed like a man.

[Michel]

16 hours ago, Grace19 said:

So the writers felt it wasn't enough that I hate Oliver and Nate, now they had to go make me hate Conner too, okay. I liked him before, but mostly for his antagonistic relationship with Michaela, but now I just can't stand him and his passive aggressive behavior. Just like someone already said, I wish he would be revealed as the person who killed Wes so that he could get off the show and take Oliver with him, but since he was shown to be reviving Wes, I don't think he killed him. But am still hopeful that he is somehow involved so that he can stop claiming to be so innocent and stop blaming Wes and Annalise for everything.

I love Michaela, but I was disappointed she shut Asher down like she did, thankfully, she is now open to the idea that Conner could sell them out, Conner is just out for himself.

I want to personally ask @Keepitmoving, @aquarian1, @tennisgurl, and @truthaboutluv exactly what you see in this douche.  I've watched this show for all three seasons thus far and have not seen anything likable about him.  At all.  Not.  At.  All.  But yes, I agree.  I don't think he killed Wes at all.  But I think he does know more about his death than he lets on, and I do think he was indeed the anonymous tip to the cops.

As for Michaela shutting down Asher, I think it's more that she likes and cares about Connor and doesn't want to believe the worst about him.  Or at least doesn't want to accept the possibility of seeing the worst about him, or what is right in front of her face.  But something about that scene in Bonnie's house finally made her start seeing what was right in front of her face -- that Connor really might be the one willing to sell them all out.  I just can't figure out what it was that made Michaela have her lightbulb moment about him.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Michel

[helenamonster]

Something I just realized re: Connor trying to revive Wes...he knew that Wes was dead before the fire and yet continued to keep that to himself while Annalise was being prosecuted for killing Wes via arson. Even if his only involvement that night was finding Wes and trying to save him, he was definitely willing to let Annalise get put away for a crime she didn't commit.* No wonder he was so eager to pin the whole thing on her, he could finally solve his main problem (being under Annalise's thumb) without having to get his hands dirty. God, I hate him.

*Obviously there's still a possibility that Annalise did start the fire, but then at that point she'd only be guilty of arson, not murder.

[DearEvette]

On 2/17/2017 at 6:51 PM, Keepitmoving said:

I just don't get all the Anna is the worst in all this attitude and I specifically rolled my eyes when she went over to Laurel and I believe I heard Laurel say some shit about how she was waiting for a "Laurel I'm sorry..."from Anna. WTF? Girl you ain't the grieving widow, or even a the grieving long time girlfriend for that matter.

Ha!  and Ha!

I was watching the scenes of Laurel being pissy with Analise thinking the same thing.  Also did they get a look at Ana's face?  The woman was in jail and got beat up.  And they know damned well she didn't kill Wes.  So give her a few days to get over the fucking shock of being in fucking jail and being set up for murders that their dumb asses committed.  Jeezy.

[Anela]

6 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Ha!  and Ha!

I was watching the scenes of Laurel being pissy with Analise thinking the same thing.  Also did they get a look at Ana's face?  The woman was in jail and got beat up.  And they know damned well she didn't kill Wes.  So give her a few days to get over the fucking shock of being in fucking jail and being set up for murders that their dumb asses committed.  Jeezy.

That bothered me, too. She tells them that these people set her up to be killed, and that her baby WAS killed, and Laurel just says, "Wes deserves better than you!" ?? Wes was defending her, before he died. No empathy, no concern for her. Maybe her anger clouded empathy, until the end of the episode. 

I was also put off by Annalise saying they should just kill Atwood, though. I didn't know if she was serious, or if it was a bad joke. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Laurel and Wes have had one of the most consistent friendships on the show. Most people who don't even like their romantic relationship, have claimed that it's because they were better as platonic brotps or sibling-like. As for treating him well - between the two of them, it was Wes who has occasionally treated her badly in their relationship while she's always been there for him. Whether they had started dating or not, it would still be right to show Laurel as the only other person besides Annalise, to genuinely grieve for Wes. 

Very true. I don't mind that Laurel is grieving for Wes. It makes some sense, just like I'd imagine Michaela would be upset if Connor died, even with all the crap he's pulling. My issue is that Laurel's grief is not translating well on the show because their romantic relationship wasn't translated well. From a writing standpoint, they were only in a relationship for three weeks or so. They had mild interest beforehand, but then this season had them building up a relationship that was not previously hinted at (they started off slow with their kiss last season, but then the build up this season felt incredibly rushed because of Pete planning for Wes to be the dead body). 

Although, to be fair, the only romantic pairing I'm actually invested in currently is Asher/Michaela. Previously, it was just Connor/Oliver for about a season and a half. This show for me is not a shipping type of show because each of these people are really not good people. They're pretty despicable people who I wouldn't want to be friends with in real life. The Keating Four burned and chopped up Sam's body because Annalise told Wes to do it, for goodness sake. I'm here for the drama, the mysteries, and the occasional action. I'm not here for any of the romantic pairings, not really.

[Milaxx]

Nate just keeps getting dumber by the minute. Did anyone notice he had specifically asked Atwood if the were investigating AK and she told him no? Then he's surprised that it turns out not only did she hire him to get info, she also framed him for removing Wes body. He needs to stay away from these high powered women. They are not good for his well being.

[harmfulhazards]

34 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Nate just keeps getting dumber by the minute. Did anyone notice he had specifically asked Atwood if the were investigating AK and she told him no? Then he's surprised that it turns out not only did she hire him to get info, she also framed him for removing Wes body. He needs to stay away from these high powered women. They are not good for his well being.

Last season he forged Philip's police record while sitting under security camera for no good reason at all and seemed to be genuinely surprised when he got caught. There was no hope for him even back then.

[Milaxx]

and before that AK threw him under the bus by implying he faked evidence when he was with her. This was like episode 1 or 2. Nate's been getting played since day 1 and still keeps coming back for more.

[Keepitmoving]

14 hours ago, Michel said:

I want to personally ask @Keepitmoving, @aquarian1, @tennisgurl, and @truthaboutluv exactly what you see in this douche.  I've watched this show for all three seasons thus far and have not seen anything likable about him.  At all.  Not.  At.  All.  But yes, I agree.  I don't think he killed Wes at all.  But I think he does know more about his death than he lets on, and I do think he was indeed the anonymous tip to the cops.

 

 

It's not that I love him or anything, I just don't hate him. And since I'm a Michaela fan first I was hoping that Norwalk would eventually get around to writing Connor to be less of a taker in that relationship and to give back. The fact that, that hasn't happened IMO is on Norwalk, because I've already bitched a number of times on how I feel about black female characters being the care givers and taking charge ONLY, but then not getting support or care because um, they are never written to need it. Which is why I can't get into any thought of a Laurel and Michaela friendship, it'll just be another one-sided relationship where she gets nothing in return. Michaela keeps taking care of people, giving them housing LOL, taking care of them in their grief, when will it be reciprocated?

Although he does make sure that Anna at least has Bonnie and Frank, and Nate for that matter if she'd just give his vegetable shakes a chance.  He sure keeps coming back, he's not going anywhere, so she gets support at least to balance out her take charge persona.  This is why the outrage in reaction to the Keatings not being warm and cuddly with her doesn't matter to me, she's not some innocent, and no one is beating up on her. They all need to just own their shit, all of them, including her. But Anna has support for sure, unlike Michaela. Support that would kill my dear Michaela if they had to for her.  Anna was right when she told  Asher he didn't have to worry about her, she'll be fine especially now that it seems like she might be starting to own her shit and not want to be so self-destructive. Worry about your girlfriend Asher. Which I actually think he was trying to do by trying to break it to her gently that Connor is sketchy and something is up.  In his approach, I do think he was trying to break the fall that she might have in all this. But that shit with say you have sympathy for her because she's human directed at Michaela infuriated me, especially after we have Laurel using her grief be downright mean by saying to Anna that Wes deserved better than her after Anna tells the entire group how her baby died. I just can't get over that Michaela is then the one that Norwalk decides to have a character try to convince her that someone is human and needs her sympathy (eye roll.) I saw that damn scene and I saw sadness on Michaela's face, and silence just like every one else in the room except a "grieving" Laurel, who had to open her damn mouth and emit some anti-social response all in the name of her grief, yeah, but Michaela needs a lesson in compassion. Give me a break.

But at any rate, Anna will be fine. She designed the cover up of her husband's murder with Wes, behind the other Keatings backs. They had no idea in the beginning that she knew, she and Wes with their secret looks because those two knew stuff the others didn't. They had no idea that when he went back to the house that Anna was there and she instructed Wes not to tell them. Then they brought in Laurel into their confidence, it was almost as if she was becoming the new Bonnie or trying to be. So you had Anna, Frank, Bonnie, Wes, Laurel and at one point Asher because Bonnie had his back as they were going together. That left Michaela and Connor on their own, to rely on one another. So it's not that I love Connor, or think he's great half the time, I just get the bond that Michaela has or thinks she has with him, because she needs it. She needs someone for crying out loud.

 

Quote

As for Michaela shutting down Asher, I think it's more that she likes and cares about Connor and doesn't want to believe the worst about him.  Or at least doesn't want to accept the possibility of seeing the worst about him, or what is right in front of her face.  But something about that scene in Bonnie's house finally made her start seeing what was right in front of her face -- that Connor really might be the one willing to sell them all out.  I just can't figure out what it was that made Michaela have her lightbulb moment about him.

This, I agree with, that's how I saw the scene. 

  The actress has said in interviews the Michaela has never felt like she had a family and she has been seeing Connor and now Asher as family, she doesn't want to lose that, she's scared. She's the one who brought up family into the convo. she and Asher were having, he didn't bring it up. So that told me right there where she was coming from even though Asher is right, it's the secrets that screw up families.  But she's afraid and instead of saying that she's afraid she goes into fight mode, most people do. And why wouldn't she? That's what she's had to do to survive in life, so it's not like it's in her nature to say "I'm scared." She's calling Asher a blind, trusting fool, but in the case of Connor, that's what she might have turned out to be and she can't take that.  I saw it in her face when Asher started to share his suspicions in confronting Connor, her eyes were watering because she knew what was coming and that she'd have to side against Connor.  Then she starts screaming about them not fighting again, yep, she just wants to keep them together. But that was fear, she didn't want to hear that Connor was the source, killed Wes, and the worse of it is that he's kept her in the dark.  He's the one person from the start that she could depend on to keep her in the know on what he knew and now he's got all these secrets. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Eolivet]

Just caught up and wow...now that episode begged for a "Don't Miss the Last 30 Seconds" promo, if any episode ever did.

I agree with the theory that Laurel killed Wes (by accident), but has blocked it out. They have spent far too much time on her obsessing over who killed Wes for it not to be her (which is a recipe for interesting storytelling). I also think (as others have likely said) that Frank set the fire, to protect Laurel and get rid of the evidence. I think he tried to get her out of the house, but something happened (seeing Connor maybe?) and he took off instead. The main season 3 arc was about Wes/Laurel/Frank. To me, they have to be the answer to Victim, Killer, Arsonist.

I think instead of a red herring, Connor was the proverbial fly in the ointment.

But I don't think I've ever been right about this show, so...

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 

I agree with the theory that Laurel killed Wes (by accident), but has blocked it out. 

 

 

 

Yeah, but if Laurel did it, where could she be in the house while Connor is trying to revive him? Because she was there, got blown up to show for it. So did she leave and then come back? Did she hide and wait till Connor left? Or, is she standing there in shock while Connor is trying to revive him? Which we will soon find out if this is the case and if it is, that means that Connor was protecting her also. 

I hope Norwalk is a better character driven writer than I've seen so far, so throwing out that line about Laurel's mother, I would hope he would expand on that. Although the mental illness would not be what caused her to kill Wes, it comes into play in how she deals with his death and her role in it. Yep, there is no way Norwalk is making that pretty,  fine Connor the root of all evil, I just can't believe he's going to make him the killer, I can't. He's not fine enough to weather that crime, LOL. At least Laurel will have the fact that she is carrying Wes's baby, the death was a mistake, she loved him so that she blocked it out etc.....Connor would be afforded none of that if he was the murderer and I don't think Norwalk is letting him nor Coliver go.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I hope Norwalk is a better character driven writer than I've seen so far

I love your posts, but the showrunner's name is Nowalk (with no "r").  It bothers me more than it should because I live in Norwalk, so I'm always wondering what my home town has to do with it.  LOL.

[possibilities]

49 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

the showrunner's name is Nowalk (with no "r").

Wow, I never noticed that before, and I try really hard to get names right because my own is so often goofed. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I love your posts, but the showrunner's name is Nowalk (with no "r").  It bothers me more than it should because I live in Norwalk, so I'm always wondering what my home town has to do with it.  LOL.

Gotcha, thanks.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[helenamonster]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Very true. I don't mind that Laurel is grieving for Wes. It makes some sense, just like I'd imagine Michaela would be upset if Connor died, even with all the crap he's pulling. My issue is that Laurel's grief is not translating well on the show because their romantic relationship wasn't translated well. From a writing standpoint, they were only in a relationship for three weeks or so. They had mild interest beforehand, but then this season had them building up a relationship that was not previously hinted at (they started off slow with their kiss last season, but then the build up this season felt incredibly rushed because of Pete planning for Wes to be the dead body). 

Although, to be fair, the only romantic pairing I'm actually invested in currently is Asher/Michaela. Previously, it was just Connor/Oliver for about a season and a half. This show for me is not a shipping type of show because each of these people are really not good people. They're pretty despicable people who I wouldn't want to be friends with in real life. The Keating Four burned and chopped up Sam's body because Annalise told Wes to do it, for goodness sake. I'm here for the drama, the mysteries, and the occasional action. I'm not here for any of the romantic pairings, not really.

I very much agree with the bold. I tend to avoid shipping in shows that I watch (as well as shows that are shipping-only in general) and this is definitely a show where I can't get too invested in any relationship because not only do we not know what awful things any of these people are going to pull in the future, awful things they've done in the past could be revealed at any moment. I enjoy watching certain characters in scenes with each other, like say Annalise and Eve. I like/liked to watch their relationship because the actresses worked well together and the storyline that their relationship facilitated was interesting to me. But they wouldn't be good for each other long term, though I will always welcome a return from Eve if Famke's new show doesn't work out or she can negotiate some network-hopping in a later draft of her contract.

But yes, I am here for the twisty turny plot and the increasingly messed up characters that push it forward. If two characters are in a romantic relationship that produces scenes/storylines I enjoy, I'll happily root for them, but I refused to get invested. It's just not that kind of show for me.

[DearEvette]

On 2/18/2017 at 7:10 PM, RedheadZombie said:

My comments were specifically referencing the bad blood Annalise has sown with the DA's office for a decade or two, which involved lies, obstruction, murder cover ups, framing clients, and the dirty tricks she's famous for.  She is now reaping the backlash from that office.  For pete's sake, Annalise's crew killed the last ADA, and she orchestrated the cover up.

I think there are two issues at play here, for me at least.

One is the K4's treatment of Annalise right now.  They really don't have a lot of high moral ground to stand on and yet they, Laurel and Connor at least, are conveniently forgetting their own actions in everything.  Laurel was awfully cold blooded when it came to disposing of Sam, showing very little doubt or remorse.  They could have all, Connor included, called the cops the minute they realized Sam was dead.  It could have been argued as self defense situation at that point, he was attacking Laurel and Michaela.  Asher at least seems to have the self awareness some of the others lack.  His involvement with Anna is what caused the ADA to focus on his father as a leverage to get to Anna but while he resents her to some extent for that and probably does blame her for his father's death, but he at least seems to understand what was at stake with what he did.  

Sure, Anna is no saint, but their treatment of her is cruel given that she is the one who is taking the public brunt of the ill effects of their actions, not them.  It is her reputation that was being tarnished.  Her livelihood threatened and she's the only one that went to jail.  If anything, she should be the one turning on them for getting her involved in their shit.

The second is the stuff with the DA.  The way I see it is they suspect Anna of these things and rightly so because suspicious shit does happen around her.  But they can't be mad at her for how she defends her clients since what she does is within the playbook for defense attorneys.  Getting Oliver to hack police systems could be considered crossing the line, but since it tends to reveal suppressed evidence and foul play on the part of the DA, they are just as crooked as they think she is. What gets me about them is that, as presented on screen, this has all the earmarks are of vendetta, not justice.  If they had clear cut evidence it would be one thing, but the arrest, the hearing and the incarceration of Anna was a joke.  The problem is, you don't know if the sheer lack of due process and a fair trial is deliberate to show they are intentionally railroading Anna or the normal "tv law isn't how real law works" deal.  At any rate,  their actions don't say "we want to remove this menace to society for the safety of our citizens"  they say "we want to take this bitch out because she makes us look bad."  It would more compelling if it were the former, because it seems like the latter, Anna becomes sympathetic.

I think Nate is the only person who has a real beef with Anna  she's chucked him under the bus so many times.  But then he keeps standing by the curb.

Edited February 21, 2017 by DearEvette

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

For pete's sake, Annalise's crew killed the last ADA, and she orchestrated the cover up.

Yeah but it wasn't the crew, it was Asher and Asher alone who took her life. Even when they decided to throw her body over the balcony everyone wasn't involved Connor and Michaela were downstairs and shocked to see her body fall and splatter blood right in front of them. Yeah, his ass should be grateful to Anna, his murder wasn't even in self-defense like Wes, so I get it. Trying to force Michaela to rattle off some bullshit words in support of your savior, no, you kiss her feet because you should. Michaela doesn't have to. But once again, certain characters got caught up in the cover up of the murder he committed. Yeah, this is the one huge issue I have with how these crimes are being described.  I see comments with the wording "they killed her husband" and I'm like, no  they didn't, which is why initially Connor and Michaela knew they'd be OK if they just went to the police and confessed. But Laurel turned on them and told Anna and Anna showed up to stop them. But, WES killed her husband and it's makes a difference. It was self-defense but the fact is, he dealt the fatal blow. Bonnie killed Rebecca, and Frank killed Lila for Sam of course. These people took actual life, not Michaela, not Laurel and perhaps not Connor, because I'm not sure he killed Wes even by accident, we'll soon find out.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

How To Get Away With Murder Cries A Different Kind Of Tear

And naturally, Viola Davis sheds it perfectly.

[Edgar J. Torrealba]

If connor was giving wes CPR what could've had happened to wes? Is not like CPR can bring back from everything

[Edgar J. Torrealba]

I got bonnie , laurel , asher and meggie as the killers. I think bonnie knew wes was talking with the police and took care of him, maybe she gave Water with some killing pills and then she left connor got to the house try to bring wes back with CPR as he saw wes heart stop and then hear the door got out and that was the body laurel saw 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I got bonnie , laurel , asher and meggie as the killers.

Well, then Asher must have run over to the house right after Laurel told him that Anna wanted them to come over. He must have run down a staircase after he "faked" passing out on the bed. I mean, if he doesn't leave at the same time or even before Laurel leaves that dorm to head over to Anna's house, I don't know where he would have had time to kill Wes. I don't see how he beats Laurel to the house. 

He went from the finals party at the school, over to Michaela's to stop Connor and Laurel from going over there. While he's there Wes is still at the police station. Then he goes with Laurel and Connor to the dorm and we see Laurel just before she leaves ask him where Connor was, because at some point Connor was in that dorm and then he wasn't. I just don't see where Asher has the time to kill Wes. I can't see how he gets over to the house to do so. 

By the way, did Anna call Connor or was it Laurel? I think she called Wes and Laurel and told Laurel to tell everyone else to come over. I don't think Anna called Connor.

Something is up with the time, I've never gotten a grasp of the time passed in between scenes. As a matter a fact, I could have sworn that it wasn't even that dark outside when Laurel proceeded to walk up the stairs to Anna's house while texting Wes. Because I remember that she was still texting him before going into the house. But I also don't remember it looking like it was pitch black outside, until she goes into the house, the camera pulls back and it explodes. That's when it looked totally dark to me. I swear when she arrived at Anna's house it looked like there was a little sunlight still out. I swear that before she left Asher's dorm that the sun hadn't set yet. Why do I feel like I remember sunlight showing through that dorm before she left to go to Anna's? The sun was shining bright the entire time they were at Michaela's. It was out when Wes left the police station, and Laurel got the call from Anna soon after Wes got his. So how could the sunlight not be showing when Laurel pulls up to Anna's unless she stopped off somewhere before going there and a lot of time had passed?  I mean does it take that long to get from Asher's dorm to Anna's house that it would be that dark by the time she got there? In the flashback we see Wes and Nate and it's pitch black, but maybe that's just inside the house which tends to be dark. But really, is it that dark even when the sun is out? How damn long did it take Wes to get to that house? I mean he did jump in a cab. The lighting and timing has got me confused.

See they made it seem like Laurel went in and a second or two later boom, but I don't think so. I think she was in there for a longer span of time before everything went up in flames. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

On 2/21/2017 at 8:29 AM, DearEvette said:

I think there are two issues at play here, for me at least.

One is the K4's treatment of Annalise right now.  They really don't have a lot of high moral ground to stand on and yet they, Laurel and Connor at least, are conveniently forgetting their own actions in everything.  Laurel was awfully cold blooded when it came to disposing of Sam, showing very little doubt or remorse.  They could have all, Connor included, called the cops the minute they realized Sam was dead.  It could have been argued as self defense situation at that point, he was attacking Laurel and Michaela.  Asher at least seems to have the self awareness some of the others lack.  His involvement with Anna is what caused the ADA to focus on his father as a leverage to get to Anna but while he resents her to some extent for that and probably does blame her for his father's death, but he at least seems to understand what was at stake with what he did.  

......

The second is the stuff with the DA.  The way I see it is they suspect Anna of these things and rightly so because suspicious shit does happen around her.  But they can't be mad at her for how she defends her clients since what she does is within the playbook for defense attorneys.  Getting Oliver to hack police systems could be considered crossing the line, but since it tends to reveal suppressed evidence and foul play on the part of the DA, they are just as crooked as they think she is. What gets me about them is that, as presented on screen, this has all the earmarks are of vendetta, not justice.  If they had clear cut evidence it would be one thing, but the arrest, the hearing and the incarceration of Anna was a joke.  The problem is, you don't know if the sheer lack of due process and a fair trial is deliberate to show they are intentionally railroading Anna or the normal "tv law isn't how real law works" deal.  At any rate,  their actions don't say "we want to remove this menace to society for the safety of our citizens"  they say "we want to take this bitch out because she makes us look bad."  It would more compelling if it were the former, because it seems like the latter, Anna becomes sympathetic.

I think Nate is the only person who has a real beef with Anna  she's chucked him under the bus so many times.  But then he keeps standing by the curb.

I wonder if the difference is that Asher wasn't there when Sam was killed. They may have told him about it but that's nothing compared to the chaos of being in the house that night or burning then chopping up a body. Sure he ran over Sinclaire and dropped her from the roof, but it's slightly less gruesome and the other s lacked the state of shock and grief Asher was under when he killed Sinclair.  Unlike the others Asher never wanted to go to the police and confess. He wanted that Sinclaire issue to go away and was grateful that AK (and Bonnie) found a way to make that happen. Either way it feels like Asher has more reason to be grateful and loyal to AK than the others.

On 2/21/2017 at 2:53 PM, Edgar J. Torrealba said:

If connor was giving wes CPR what could've had happened to wes? Is not like CPR can bring back from everything

I imagine he ran when he heard someone (Laurel?) coming. It reminded me of him attempting to help AK after Wes shot her and leaving because the police were coming. 

On 2/21/2017 at 4:17 PM, Keepitmoving said:

.....

By the way, did Anna call Connor or was it Laurel? I think she called Wes and Laurel and told Laurel to tell everyone else to come over. I don't think Anna called Connor.

Something is up with the time, I've never gotten a grasp of the time passed in between scenes. As a matter a fact, I could have sworn that it wasn't even that dark outside when Laurel proceeded to walk up the stairs to Anna's house while texting Wes. Because I remember that she was still texting him before going into the house. But I also don't remember it looking like it was pitch black outside, until she goes into the house, the camera pulls back and it explodes. That's when it looked totally dark to me. I swear when she arrived at Anna's house it looked like there was a little sunlight still out. I swear that before she left Asher's dorm that the sun hadn't set yet. Why do I feel like I remember sunlight showing through that dorm before she left to go to Anna's? The sun was shining bright the entire time they were at Michaela's. It was out when Wes left the police station, and Laurel got the call from Anna soon after Wes got his. So how could the sunlight not be showing when Laurel pulls up to Anna's unless she stopped off somewhere before going there and a lot of time had passed?  I mean does it take that long to get from Asher's dorm to Anna's house that it would be that dark by the time she got there? In the flashback we see Wes and Nate and it's pitch black, but maybe that's just inside the house which tends to be dark. But really, is it that dark even when the sun is out? How damn long did it take Wes to get to that house? I mean he did jump in a cab. The lighting and timing has got me confused.

See they made it seem like Laurel went in and a second or two later boom, but I don't think so. I think she was in there for a longer span of time before everything went up in flames. 

AK did call Connor.  Oliver found the call records on her phone.  As far as the timeline goes I think we're looking at Wes leaving the police department around 4:30 and the house fire at 10:32. In November it gets dark 5/5:15pm so it could be daylight when Wes left the police department, he spends 30 - 40 minutes talking to and losing Frank then goes to AK's house. It's also possible he met whoever he called and ID'd himself as Christophe on the phone to and then arrived at AK's house later that evening and Laurel arrived after that.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Milaxx