S05.E13: Spectre Of The Gun

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

. Felicity as the moderator worked at first and made sense to keep the episode moving along, but then MG took reasonable behavior and threw her under the bus by making her the bad guy of the episode for not wanting to talk about it.  Some how I find it more egregious knowing that that position wasn't his plan going into the episode, just that he was struck that he could turn her "let's get back to the business at hand" tone and twist it into what he thinks is most wrong with discourse.  And he spelled just that out in his interviews!  So lazy.

Not to mention outright call it one party's agenda over another, label it negative, and then stick it with a character who's opinion can be nuanced and interesting.

I get trying to tie it in to Rene's story, but I feel one of the biggest missed opportunities (out of many) for this episode was not just Felicity's opinion, but Oliver's, Diggle's, and Felicity's opinions on the matter. It could have been a great set-up: Rene and Curtis taking the talking points/buzzword arguments, and then the main three taking the more nuanced approach from their various experiences, leading to a compromise between Rene and Curtis on opinions and a thematic reminder of the OTA dynamic even in the midst of a controversial issue. Tying it to Rene's story loses the impact for the episode and the overall narrative.

Edited February 16, 2017 by way2interested

[Lantern7]

17 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Star Trek did it  better.

"There's only one way to stop the killer, restore order to Star City, AND have a satisfying ending to a preachy episode." "You . . . you don't mean?!?" "Yes. The Bratva Mind Meld."

11 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Seriously? :(  Can Sara not have one thing that's just hers? 

(Sorry, I'm exhausted and in caffeine withdrawal and grumpy about stuff that doesn't matter - lol.)

Sin? Remember her? How about being a lesbian?

[tennisgurl]

Tonight, on a very special episode of Arrow...

Show, you REALLY need to stay away from hot button political issues. Your just not smart enough for that, at least not anymore. Also, not to be insensitive, but why the hell is THIS the thing that's causing all this legislating and politicking? This is the city that has already had an earthquake machine destroy half the city, a bunch of masked super soldiers running amok, not to mention the endless stream of murdered public servants, and the 300 other enormous disasters that hit this city every week. Compared to all of that, a mass shooting almost seems small time. That's the issue when your trying to deal with Real World issues in a superhero universe. Some things just don't translate.

[Starfish35]

10 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

How about being a lesbian?

Sara's bisexual, not lesbian.

[Lantern7]

Just now, Starfish35 said:

Sara's bisexual, not lesbian.

I haven't seen her go for a guy lately. In my defense, the options on the Waverider are threadbare on a good day, and she has gotten close with a few women during the show's run.

Really hoping that Curtis gets a costume upgrade next season. I'm okay with the hair, though a hood could conceal it better. Having a "T" on your face does not work in comics that well, and it really isn't good to look at "live."

[benteen]

16 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

"There's only one way to stop the killer, restore order to Star City, AND have a satisfying ending to a preachy episode." "You . . . you don't mean?!?" "Yes. The Bratva Mind Meld."

Sin? Remember her? How about being a lesbian?

Sin?  I haven't thought about her in a long time.  Last I heard, she was on Scream and is a voice on Netflix's Voltron. 

[AyChihuahua]

13 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I haven't seen her go for a guy lately. In my defense, the options on the Waverider are threadbare on a good day, and she has gotten close with a few women during the show's run.

There's not a shot clock for being bisexual, you know.

[wonderwall]

23 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Sara's bisexual, not lesbian.

Preeeetty sure the show erased her bisexuality... 

[Starfish35]

39 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Preeeetty sure the show erased her bisexuality... 

I'm not.  But it's off-topic for this thread. Taking to Mind Your Surroundings....

Edited February 16, 2017 by Starfish35

[ohjoy]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I just watched Carly Pope on Suits last night and I'm wondering about her acting choices on Arrow because wow, her character on Suits is so much more relatable than Susan Williams.  Warmer, more caring, just overall nicer.

Whoa. Until you mentioned Suits, I did not even realize that was the same woman. Lightyears of difference in the quality of characters. Now I'm even more disappointed in how far Arrow has fallen. This is absolutely not the show I signed up for.

[BkWurm1]

Arrow has a habit of making good guest actors look terrible.  Like Thea's boyfriend last year.  He was completely forgettable but I know that actor is actually great at nuance, charm and humor...none of which they let him portray.  

Edited February 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[TwistedandBored]

This episode was really boring. 

[theOAfc]

59 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I'm not.  But it's off-topic for this thread. Taking to Mind Your Surroundings....

They really did that? Yikes.

[mrspidey]

21 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

So...aside from the godawful execution of this episode, seems like at this point Oliver doesn't give much of a shit about getting caught for murdering Billy since he told Chase he didn't want to cover it up and also didn't want to ask Susan to back down on her investigation.

I think it was last episode or previous to last episode where it was made clear, that the police had figured out it was a setup all on their own. So Olliver doesn't need to worry anymore because GA is not a suspect at this point. 

[Hiveminder]

Can we just forget this episode happened? The only positive thing to say about it is that Felicity's lipstick looked fantastic. 

[statsgirl]

6 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

I think it was last episode or previous to last episode where it was made clear, that the police had figured out it was a setup all on their own. So Olliver doesn't need to worry anymore because GA is not a suspect at this point. 

Adrian Chase, the DA, figured out that the Green Arrow was set up by Prometheus.  But he advised Oliver to keep that information private.  I presume that wasn't known to the police in general or the ACU.

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Adrian Chase, the DA, figured out that the Green Arrow was set up by Prometheus.  But he advised Oliver to keep that information private.  I presume that wasn't known to the police in general or the ACU.

Yeah. Chase knew and he said he was "taking care of" the other cops on the scene and the coroner to make sure they went along with his story/that the truth didn't get out. 

 

Why Oliver was okay with that then but suddenly isn't now - especially now that he knows his "good reporter" girlfriend is sniffing around? Anyone's guess!

Edited February 16, 2017 by apinknightmare

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Why Oliver was okay with that then but suddenly isn't now - especially now that he knows his "good reporter" girlfriend is sniffing around? Anyone's guess!

Maybe he wants his "good person/good reporter" girlfriend to get a really good story? I don't think anyone - including MG, WM and every single writer on the show - knows. 

[statsgirl]

49 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe he wants his "good person/good reporter" girlfriend to get a really good story?

If that's the case, he really needs a mental status examination, preferably including a suicide check.

[DeadZeus]

Wish they let the saving of innocent in the hands of GA so we get some cool act scenes instead of having Mayor Queen do it cuz GA seems to let ppl die more and more... But that's just me. I just want better action on the show.

Judging by next weeks trailer it doesn't seem that the ACU knows GA was set up :s

[RobertDeSneero]

17 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I got the impression that he wasn't trying because instead of putting down the bottle and getting his life together, he puts on a hockey mask and goes out beating up people and then joins a team full time to do it and then after nearly dying, still doesn't stop  or second guess his current choice but instead continues creating an unsafe environment for his daughter.  He is currently the issue but he's now further from being deemed good by child services now if they found out he's a full time mask than he was when he was just sad and drinking. Would he even be employed if Quentin hadn't taken pity on him? 

I think that was much more probably to be the last time he tried to get his daughter back after multiple attempts rather than the first time.  It's likely that months have passed since his wife died and his daughter was taken away.  The shooting occurred during a time when hockey (I assume) was being played and it was cold enough for a mother to tell her daughter to wear a coat because it was cold outside.  The phone call probably occurred in May, since that is when the episode aired and TV time of the year generally tracks to real time.   Putting on a mask was probably partly an attempt to get out of the downward spiral of drinking and depression brought on by losing the two most important people in his life, or to die trying and put himself out of his misery.

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Judging by next weeks trailer it doesn't seem that the ACU knows GA was set up :s

From a legal perspective, it doesn't matter. People are really not allowed to go around killing even bad guys, and, per criminal law, if you mean to murder a bad guy and instead murder a good guy...you still murdered someone, and therefore prison says hello.

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think that was much more probably to be the last time he tried to get his daughter back after multiple attempts rather than the first time.  It's likely that months have passed since his wife died and his daughter was taken away.  The shooting occurred during a time when hockey (I assume) was being played and it was cold enough for a mother to tell her daughter to wear a coat because it was cold outside.  The phone call probably occurred in May, since that is when the episode aired and TV time of the year generally tracks to real time.   Putting on a mask was probably partly an attempt to get out of the downward spiral of drinking and depression brought on by losing the two most important people in his life, or to die trying and put himself out of his misery.

LOL at the manpain leading to a hockey mask instead of, like, getting a job and stable living situation to keep your kid.

[thegirlsleuth]

I caught up on this episode despite all the warnings, kind of like pushing on a bruise.  

Things where I physically cringed:  Rene and his wife's argument over her drug use.  For a show that was trying to be gritty and hard hitting, it was like they were arguing over who forgot to take out the garbage; Oliver pointing the AR15 at the thug; Oliver saying "freedom isn't free" before presenting the gun control legislation formulated by a guy who calls everyone "Hoss".

Things where I cringed inside: Felicity having no opinion on gun violence and Curtis chastising her for being disengaged.  Rene blaming his wife's death on the fact that he wasn't armed rather than the fact that his wife got mixed up with illegal drugs.  Oliver giving a compassionate speech to the shooter and the next scene being "yeah, he's going away forever."  

Things that made me laugh: SOOO many things.  The sign at the candlelight vigil that said "justice for victims". Way to take a stand there, show.  And Dinah was undercover with gang called the Pilgrims that used bo-staffs?  That sounds like the least threatening gang ever.  Did they have a dance off with the Quakers?

There was also the oddly patriotic music coupled with Oliver's word salad speeches.  I laughed out loud when Oliver said that he and the councilwoman weren't leaving until they solved things . . .and then he left. 

I picked up the weird Diggle/Dinah vibes, and I think both actors were putting it out there.  She's really good at the fighting, but Dinah's acting remains blech.  Her facial expressions are different forms of mugging, and I can't tell if its a good thing or a bad thing but she has a slow cadence that's a little jarring.  She tends to wait until the other person has completely finished their sentence, and then she talks slowly.  I didn't realize the quick clip that everyone spoke with until she joined the team.  

Everything Felicity and Thea related makes me sad.  People have already done a wonderful job of outlining how they lost their voice. Oliver conferred with Rene on the legislations instead of his sister, the chief of staff. Quinten gave Thea more warmth than her brother.   And Oliver and Diggle act like they don't even know Felicity.  Oliver looks through her,  and what's worse, so does Diggle--if the computer could spit out the info she provides on its own, no one would talk to her.    She doesn't leave the bunker, despite her masterful lipstick game. Excluding the Russia visit, she's been behind her monitor for everything except maybe 20 minutes this season?   I don't think I'm far off.  And she and Thea both had their opinions shut down because the men didn't feel like it was right.  Blech.

Edited February 17, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[thegirlsleuth]

I appreciate the fact that the sponsored content at the bottom of the page promises to expose Dan Blocker's secrets from the set of Bonanza.  I think we've all mentioned Hoss too much.

[Tazmania]

12 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Can we just forget this episode happened? The only positive thing to say about it is that Felicity's lipstick looked fantastic. 

And her dress, Emily Bett is made to wear those well fitted skirts .... *total girl crush* 

[bijoux]

On 16. 02. 2017. at 3:28 AM, Lantern7 said:

And, of course, Rene inadvertently kills his wife. 

 

On 16. 02. 2017. at 7:45 AM, apinknightmare said:

I love that she used it while undercover in a gang named The Pilgrims. Apparently pilgrims were big bo staff users. 

 

6 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Things where I cringed inside: Felicity having no opinion on gun violence and Curtis chastising her for being disengaged.  

I haven't watched the episode and it's getting less likely I will by the minute, but these are all things that actually happened in show? What?

Also, the Vigilante had a conversation with Mayor Queen at some point, and assistant to the deputy mayor was drafting a bill with the mayor? Again, what?

[way2interested]

12 minutes ago, bijoux said:

 

 

I haven't watched the episode and it's getting less likely I will by the minute, but these are all things that actually happened in show? What?

Also, the Vigilante had a conversation with Mayor Queen at some point, and assistant to the deputy mayor was drafting a bill with the mayor? Again, what?

More or less, but maybe not as blatant as described. Rene shoots the dealer dead and as the dealer falls he pulls the trigger that kills Rene's wife (not an accidental shot by Rene like the sentence might imply), The Pilgrims one is pretty straightforward and was random, Felicity didn't say she didn't have an opinion, just that debating on it when the debate won't lead to anything is pointless (giving no opinion, the big complaint) and Curtis was more chastising "culture" that led people to think that rather than Felicity directly.

Also, Vigilante never had a conversation with Mayor Queen. Chase has lines with Oliver, and Vigilante had a few lines with GA about using guns.

I've got no defense for Rene helping to draft the bill...that is indeed what happened, although maybe that could explain why it was so vague.

Edited February 17, 2017 by way2interested

[bijoux]

13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Also, Vigilante never had a conversation with Mayor Queen. Chase has lines with Oliver, and Vigilante had a few lines with GA about using guns.

Ah, my confusion stems from the spoilers about 

Spoiler

an episode in which Oliver doesn't put on the GA suit at all. I thought it was this one.

I spoiler tagged in case this actually refers to a later episode. I still think it's hilarious that the two opposing vigilantes got together for a chat.

[AyChihuahua]

6 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

And Oliver and Diggle act like they don't even know Felicity.  Oliver looks through her,  and what's worse, so does Diggle--if the computer could spit out the info she provides on its own, no one would talk to her.    

I've seen a few gifs and clips this season (though I usually can't make it all the way through even short clips), and I agree with this. I very rarely see as much in any of the actors' facial expressions as people here or on Twitter, but even I recognized the 2.23 island heart eyes and similar scenes esp. in 4A, but IMO Steve plays Oliver as exasperated/annoyed/bored by Felicity in a lot of their scenes now. It's really disheartening.

[way2interested]

Just now, bijoux said:

Ah, my confusion stems from the spoilers about 

  Hide contents

an episode in which Oliver doesn't put on the GA suit at all. I thought it was this one.

I spoiler tagged in case this actually refers to a later episode. I still think it's hilarious that the two opposing vigilantes got together for a chat.

I think that that was about 512, Oliver wasn't in the GA suit for the whole episode (although he was in the OG Arrow suit).

Oh, but don't worry, that wasn't the only thing that was hilarious about their chat. Vigilante in general seems so off to me that scenes like that and 507 seem more amusing than actually important to the characters/plot.

Just now, AyChihuahua said:

I've seen a few gifs and clips this season (though I usually can't make it all the way through even short clips), and I agree with this. I very rarely see as much in any of the actors' facial expressions as people here or on Twitter, but even I recognized the 2.23 island heart eyes and similar scenes esp. in 4A, but IMO Steve plays Oliver as exasperated/annoyed/bored by Felicity in a lot of their scenes now. It's really disheartening.

To be fair, SA's been playing that look with literally every character this season except for maybe Diggle, so to me it's not disheartening to him and Felicity as much as it's disheartening to me with Oliver in general.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, way2interested said:

To be fair, SA's been playing that look with literally every character this season except for maybe Diggle, so to me it's not disheartening to him and Felicity as much as it's disheartening to me with Oliver in general.

That's fair. I haven't watched even gifs of scenes with others. Any thoughts re why? Is it on purpose or Steve seeping through or...?

[bijoux]

The theory that someone floated that Oliver is suffering from depression this year is not without merit.

[AyChihuahua]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The theory that someone floated that Oliver is suffering from depression this year is not without merit.

He was depressed in S3, and he wasn't this crabby.

[bijoux]

I guess that's what they call reinventing. :)

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I guess that's what they call reinventing. :)

I don't think I can buy that he's expressing Oliver's depression. I have a hard time believing they'd have him be depressed in two of five seasons, and overall he's functioning too well (which they made clear was not the case in S3). But, if that is what Steve's doing, he needs to stop. It's not working for the show.

[Chaser]

I kind of wonder if SA is as confused by Oliver this season as the audience is. 

[way2interested]

22 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

That's fair. I haven't watched even gifs of scenes with others. Any thoughts re why? Is it on purpose or Steve seeping through or...?

I don't think it's that SA dislikes the characters or anything, although I'm not sure what he thinks of some of the story lines/interactions that he has to do.

SA said right before the season started that Oliver was "content" and but not "happy" and that Oliver basically doesn't believe that he'll be happier than he was in 4a so that he's just dealing with life now and trying to his best as GA and as mayor, so I'm guessing he's purposefully playing off Oliver as disinterested in life (not depressed, just not happy/satisfied, which is where the legacy theme comes into play regarding how he feels about what he's doing as GA). Also, I think it might be SA just putting too much effort into trying to parallel the flashbacks/s1 along with trying to distinguish how he acts as Oliver for the past 4 seasons instead of just acting as a developing character.

I don't think it's completely terrible, since he still retains some of the minute acting choices from SA that I do enjoy, but it is a bit unsatisfying to watch. Like, if he doesn't get any happiness from anything, why should an audience care if he gets what he wants in then end if he's not going to be happy about it? If he's not going to be interested, why should an audience? 

Tbh, I liked bits of this episode, and a lot from 512 because it at least showed a side of Oliver that was getting actually emotionally invested in something (even though his own argument in 513 had no nuance or motivations) instead of just going through the motions. 

[GirlvsTV]

To be fair, given the insane writing of his character that basically erases the development of past seasons, it must be hard to figure HOW exactly to play Oliver at this point. He has to tone down relationships established over previous seasons while his character is going through some rather dark situations / storylines, but the writing seems to want him to react differently this time around to show character growth . . . Except reacting that way is making Oliver come off as either a robot or someone who seems like he doesn't care. Oliver can't be happy about any of this bad stuff, but being angry/vengeful/guilty seems to be off the table so what is he left with? Some sort of weird middle-ground "meh"-ness.

Idk, I'm not a huge SA fan, but I don't think there are many actors that could make the mess this character has become work. 

I feel like the possibility of Oliver being depressed would require a level of subtlety these writers are not interested in. If he were depressed, the writers would have Oliver wearing black all the time, not showering, living in a messy place, walking around with a little rain cloud over his head while he reads a dog-eared copy of, "The Bell Jar," and every other cliche example of depression they could think of to include.

[tennisgurl]

I think SA could play Oliver having depression really well if that's what they were going for, but I don't think they are. I think SA is just annoyed and confused with his character and the way the show is going. He has no spark with any of the newbies, and his relationships with the old cast are being screwed with so we can get more time with this new batch of characters. I think he's dissatisfied and its coming across in his performance. Which is too bad because I think SA is really good and has played Oliver really well, and he has the ability to do it again (he actually seemed like himself again in the cross over when he got to act alongside some of the other Arrowverse actors), but right now it comes across as SA being miserable, not Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

This has been an interesting and helpful discussion; thanks. I think I currently come down on the side of Steve's dissatisfaction with the show/life bleeding into his acting, mixed with a soupcon of not knowing how to play this crap, but I'm not at all wedded to that.

[tangerine95]

I wouldn't be surprised if even SA didn't know how to play Oliver and that's one of the reasons why his acting is so weird and emotionless. I don't even get what's going on with Oliver or what he's thinking or wanting from his life and that was always clear in previous seasons, he always had a clear emotional arc despite the often dumb writing. 

Now it's like they're trying to regress him to previous seasons while also retaining some of his development and it makes no sense. So we get him trying to be positive and trusting through circumstances that no one would stay that way through and it's just weird. And we have him believing that he ruins lives but he's constantly bringing in new people into his life. He's out there killing again but being hypocritical when other people are doing it. It's just basically Oliver doing whatever they need him to do to push the plot along. 

SA did say that thing about Oliver not being happy but being content a few times so I guess that's how he's playing it. Which comes across as resigned, emotionless and without any will or passion for life which makes for a pretty boring character imo. 

[statsgirl]

Maybe we could say anhedonia rather than depression. Anhedonia is the inability to feel pleasure, and there certainly wasn't any when he was in bed with Susan last episode.  Probably SA doesn't know what anhedonia is (or maybe he does from his mother's cancer treatment) but it would fit how he's playing Oliver this season.  

But I can also buy that it may be his unhappiness with the current season bleeding through.  Not only is Oliver exceptionally stupid this season, the fans who adored him because of the Olicity storyline have cooled, to say the least.

It occurred to me that this was MG's attempt to write a West Wing episode.  Major fail.  I've read a number of complaints that he didn't write the pro-gun argument well but I'd argue he wrote the anti-gun one even worse.

14 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

   Putting on a mask was probably partly an attempt to get out of the downward spiral of drinking and depression brought on by losing the two most important people in his life, or to die trying and put himself out of his misery.

I see your point and yes, it was good of him to find a way out of his misery.  But that was almost a year ago and now that he has, it's time to change direction and put his daughter first, if he still wants her back.  Being a vigilante with no visible means of support is not going to do it.

And back to the theme of the episode, if he hadn't tried to shoot the drug dealer, his wife might still be alive.  His possession of a gun was the lynchpin in why he lost his daughter.

[Hiveminder]

5 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I don't think I can buy that he's expressing Oliver's depression. I have a hard time believing they'd have him be depressed in two of five seasons, and overall he's functioning too well (which they made clear was not the case in S3). But, if that is what Steve's doing, he needs to stop. It's not working for the show.

I think I've said before, somewhere, that Oliver is reading to me as depressed this season, and I stand by that. Whether the writers are doing that intentionally? I doubt it. 

[Chyromaniac]

So let me get this straight - the random dealer was holding Mrs. Dog at gunpoint because she hadn't paid for her last fix.  Was he working on credit or something?  Look, I'm a square who's never been involved in a drug purchase so this may be a stupid question, but is that how these things normally work?  Because relying on addicts to pay up after they get high seems like a really bad business model.  I think it would've made more sense for him to be a loan shark she owed or something.

Also - I found the first meeting between Quentin and Dinah to be kind of unnervingly ordinary.  Like, this is the woman that they've recruited to basically replace his daughter - she has the same basic power, and kinda the same name... I would expect that would be incredibly difficult for him to deal with.  I would like to think that will be explored at some point - but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Otherwise, I don't mind Arrow trying to tackle an issue like gun control/violence - but I agree that the execution of this story left a lot to be desired.  The ending rings hollow when we don't really know how the new law is supposed to work, and when one side only agrees under the condition that they get to blackmail the other later.  I actually didn't mind the "why can't we have a rational debate about things like this?" speech, but it definitely would've made more sense (and been less insulting) coming from Felicity, instead of her being on the receiving end.  Finally, I feel like, if nothing else, this whole story at least provides some context to why Rene has been such a screw-up thus far.  I'd maybe have more sympathy for him if I felt he had learned anything beyond "maybe I should try again to get my kid back" - but it is something.

[thegirlsleuth]

10 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

So let me get this straight - the random dealer was holding Mrs. Dog at gunpoint because she hadn't paid for her last fix.  Was he working on credit or something?  Look, I'm a square who's never been involved in a drug purchase so this may be a stupid question, but is that how these things normally work?  Because relying on addicts to pay up after they get high seems like a really bad business model.  I think it would've made more sense for him to be a loan shark she owed or something.

Also - I found the first meeting between Quentin and Dinah to be kind of unnervingly ordinary.  Like, this is the woman that they've recruited to basically replace his daughter - she has the same basic power, and kinda the same name... I would expect that would be incredibly difficult for him to deal with.  I would like to think that will be explored at some point - but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Otherwise, I don't mind Arrow trying to tackle an issue like gun control/violence - but I agree that the execution of this story left a lot to be desired.  The ending rings hollow when we don't really know how the new law is supposed to work, and when one side only agrees under the condition that they get to blackmail the other later.  I actually didn't mind the "why can't we have a rational debate about things like this?" speech, but it definitely would've made more sense (and been less insulting) coming from Felicity, instead of her being on the receiving end.  Finally, I feel like, if nothing else, this whole story at least provides some context to why Rene has been such a screw-up thus far.  I'd maybe have more sympathy for him if I felt he had learned anything beyond "maybe I should try again to get my kid back" - but it is something.

Having spent quality time with a bunch of addicts, generally drug dealers don't kill their clients.  They either cut them off--the addict gets desperate and finds some way to pay, stealing from friends and family--or they take any nice stuff or often with women, demand sex.  As a last resort they would go the torture or kidnapping route, but generally drug dealers like their clients alive and paying.

[statsgirl]

So what you're saying is that the drug dealer story was as unrealistic as the gun "debate" and the Star City Firearms Freedom Act?  (rme)

[BkWurm1]

Depression comes in different forms and to different degrees.  I agree that Oliver seems depressed.  Not so much that he has a hard time functioning but loss of pleasure in what used to bring pleasure can be one of the symptoms of depression.  He's joyless this year.  Resigned and going through a lot of the motions, trying to do what he thinks is the right move but nothing is really bringing him happiness nor does he have any real hope for his future.  I think SA's repeated use of the word content fits him not being severely depressed since Oliver knows life can be so much worse than what he currently has, but it seems to me anytime he has to really feel emotion, he's forcing himself or at least it demands a huge effort from him, so yeah, I agree he's coming off depressed.  Just a different sort of depression than season three.   

Edited February 18, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Quote

Ahedonia is the inability to experience pleasure from activities usually found enjoyable, e.g. exercise, hobbies, singing, sexual activities or social interactions. Anhedonia can be a characteristic of mental disorders [snip] "chronic feelings of emptiness." Results indicate that emptiness is negligibly related to boredom, is closely related to feeling hopeless, pathologically lonely, and isolated, and is a robust predictor of depression and suicidal ideation (but not anxiety or suicide attempts). Findings are consistent with DSM-IV revisions regarding the 7th criterion for Borderline Personality Disorder. In addition, findings suggest the emptiness reflects pathologically low positive affect and significant psychiatric distress

Sexual anhedonia in males is also known as 'ejaculatory anhedonia'. This condition means that the person will ejaculate with no accompanying sense of pleasure.

 

[bijoux]

First gifs I came across.

Source

Edited February 18, 2017 by bijoux

[Hiveminder]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Depression comes in different forms and to different degrees.  I agree that Oliver seems depressed.  Not so much that he has a hard time functioning but loss of pleasure in what used to bring pleasure can be one of the symptoms of depression.  He's joyless this year.  Resigned and going through a lot of the motions, trying to do what he thinks is the right move but nothing is really bringing him happiness nor does he have any real hope for his future.  I think SA's repeated use of the word content fits him not being severely depressed since Oliver knows life can be so much worse than what he currently has, but it seems to me anytime he has to really feel emotion, he's forcing himself or at least it demands a huge effort from him, so yeah, I agree he's coming off depressed.  Just a different sort of depression than season three.   

This is why you hear about people being so surprised that someone was depressed. Sometimes when people are depressed they can't get out bed or bring themselves to take a shower or go grocery shopping. And sometimes they do all of those things, but it's so exhausting they don't have any energy left over to feel any kind of way. So they just go along with what they think they should be doing without really engaging in their own lives. They don't connect with people around them, and they keep all interactions at a surface level because anything more is more effort than they have to give. 

I may be projecting a little bit, but that's really what I'm seeing from Oliver. It may even be part of way I cut him a lot of slack for the dumb things he's been doing.