The Sounds of Our Lives (formerly General Music Discussion)

[Jac]

I find that study really interesting and wonder if anyone has looked into how gender affects taste. I'm 35 and I listen to new stuff all the time. My mum is 61 and still seeks out new stuff. My dad on the other hand has listened seriously to, and become a fan of about three new artists total since 1980, and he was only 26 in 1980. Ask my dad who his favourite artist is and he won't hesitate before telling you it is the Beach Boys. Ask my mum and she'll give you ten artists, The Decemberists will definitely be one. Ask me or my sister and you'll get a list of hundreds.

[SirOsisOfLiver]

I think there are two kinds of music lovers. One kind (generally women) hear a song they like and it makes them want to move. It makes them want to dance. For these people, music is physical. The other kind hears a song they like and all they want is for everyone else to shut up so they can hear better. They listen to the musicians and the interplay and all that stuff. For them, music is mental.

Music never makes me want to dance. Never, and I'm musical. I was one of the millions of boys at the high school dance who was only there  because girls were there. I danced only when it seemed necessary to try and meet a girl. I have no interest in pop music - not as a teen and not as an adult. Girls love pop music, because they can dance to it. Girls dance from 8 to 98. Guys only dance when forced or nagged into it. I think that says as much as anything about who listens to what and why. I don't care about new music because it's yet another rehash of the same dance groove that I've heard for 50 years or more. Dancers don't care about details, as long as it makes them want to dance.

I remember as a young guy when everything we heard was on AM radio, and one day I suddenly noticed that the music in the radio ads was way better than the Top 40 schlock, and I didn't know any of it. Who were these bands and why weren't these songs being played on my radio station? That's when I discovered FM radio and Top 40 never insulted my ears again.

There's no right or wrong way to listen to music, but I think gender has a way bigger factor than age regarding who listens to what. It's all about dancing, or the lack thereof.

Edited September 10, 2017 by SirOsisOfLiver
redundant verbiage

[UYI]

Well, I'm a woman, and while I'll listen to dance pop, I like classic rock, alternative rock, classic country, alternative country, and bluegrass a lot more. Could explain why I'm still single, lol. 

[janie jones]

I don't that women want to dance more than men do.  I think there are social reasons that make it more "okay" for women to dance.  A group of girls can dance together, but a group of (straight, I'm thinking) guys can't.  So a girl is more likely to A) get pulled into a dance group, whether or not she wants to, and B) get more practice dancing and therefore feel more comfortable and resist less when being pressured to dance.

I can't speak for all people, but from what I've observed, neither a man nor a woman is more likely to want to dance, though there may be differences in who actually does.

Also, with regards to SirOsisOfLiver's categories, what about the group of people who want neither to dance nor listen, but to sing?

[Hanahope]

On 9/10/2017 at 1:25 AM, Cranberry said:

This discussion reminds me of that study that said people stop listening to new music at age 33. That annoyed me because it was pretty accurate for me, which spurred me to go out and listen to a bunch of new albums because who wants to be average and predictable? 

Well this certainly isn't true for me.  Even before I heard "new music" via my kids, I still would listen to the radio or otherwise got exposed to music from new bands.  That's how I started listening to Muse and Fall Out Boy, for example, even though I was nearly 40.  Of course over the last several years, I've been exposed to new music because my kids are playing it.  Some I like (Bruno Mars, Sia, Chainsmokers, Katy Perry,  Lorde, Lady Gaga for example), some I don't (and I usually don't ask who they are), others I'm just meh on.  So there.

[BetterButter]

"Uptown Funk" accused of ripping off yet another classic funk band

[Joe]

Metal time! These guys sound amazingly like Enslaved. No riffs come to mind exactly, but it minus the clean vocals it could be off their next album. Anyone else hear that?

[magicdog]

On 9/10/2017 at 5:14 AM, Jac said:

I find that study really interesting and wonder if anyone has looked into how gender affects taste. I'm 35 and I listen to new stuff all the time. My mum is 61 and still seeks out new stuff. My dad on the other hand has listened seriously to, and become a fan of about three new artists total since 1980, and he was only 26 in 1980.

Funny.  My father was born in 1939 and that put him as part of the first generation of Rock & Roll when he was a teenager.  He still listened to new music well into the 1970s although he seemed to reject most new music that followed.  My uncle (his older brother, born 1934) refuses to listen to any music recorded after 1956!  It was an interesting argument to hear them discuss how my dad could enjoy everything from Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, to doo-wop artists, to Elvis, to girl groups, to The Monkees and beyond, and yet my uncle's musical world stopped at Tennessee Ernie Ford!  "16 Tons" is his favorite tune!  For the record - I don't hate Ford or his music, but I think my Uncle is missing out on some other great tunes (pop or otherwise) that came just a few years after. 

 

I myself am very choosy about my music.  My ear tells me all I need to know if I like it or not.   Sure I came of age in the 80s and still enjoy some of the music of the MTV era, but many of those songs when I hear them again don't have the same hold over me like they did then.  I've found myself thinking, "I can't believe I used to like this song!".  I also find myself  going back to the older tunes my parents raised us on (50s-60s R&R) and lately, more classic pop songs from the 30s and 40s and early 50s.  I regularly go online to hear tunes like Arte Shaw's "Frenesi" and  Hoagy Carmichael's "Stardust", and The Viscounts' "Harlem Nocturne" and then try to get them downloaded to my nano or phone.  Other times it's a commercial using a particular tune that makes me seek it out.

[vibeology]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, SirOsisOfLiver said:

I think there are two kinds of music lovers. One kind (generally women) hear a song they like and it makes them want to move. It makes them want to dance. For these people, music is physical. The other kind hears a song they like and all they want is for everyone else to shut up so they can hear better. They listen to the musicians and the interplay and all that stuff. For them, music is mental.

Music never makes me want to dance. Never, and I'm musical. I was one of the millions of boys at the high school dance who was only there  because girls were there. I danced only when it seemed necessary to try and meet a girl. I have no interest in pop music - not as a teen and not as an adult. Girls love pop music, because they can dance to it. Girls dance from 8 to 98. Guys only dance when forced or nagged into it. I think that says as much as anything about who listens to what and why. I don't care about new music because it's yet another rehash of the same dance groove that I've heard for 50 years or more. Dancers don't care about details, as long as it makes them want to dance.

I remember as a young guy when everything we heard was on AM radio, and one day I suddenly noticed that the music in the radio ads was way better than the Top 40 schlock, and I didn't know any of it. Who were these bands and why weren't these songs being played on my radio station? That's when I discovered FM radio and Top 40 never insulted my ears again.

There's no right or wrong way to listen to music, but I think gender has a way bigger factor than age regarding who listens to what. It's all about dancing, or the lack thereof.

I think this is incredibly sexist and not at all accurate. I'm a woman who loves to dance but music is also a mental exercise to me. Setting is generally the big difference. I dance at parties and weddings and when I'm out with friends. I listen and analyze music when it's just me on a bus or at home or at a concert. I care about the details. I like hearing how artists shift from major to minor chords to convey emotion and intent.  I care deeply about lyrical content and bad lyrics can ruin a song for me. I am fascinated by how some artists choose to sample and how those samples are used. I don't think pop music is schlock across the board and if you do, you're not listening to interesting pop music. I love pop music because it can be interesting and what's popular and when is also incredibly telling about our society. I Want You Back by the Jackson 5 is a perfect pop song. And yes, at a wedding, it makes me get up and dance. But at home, what I notice is that bass line that promises everything that song will be in the opening seconds. Writing a great hook is hard. It's why millions of songs come out every year and only a few hundred are actually remembered five years later. Teenage Dream had a hook that will live on and the lyrics perfectly capture the nostalgia of young love and evoke in the listener a longing for a summer that never existed for most people. The use of staccato in the chorus turned that song into earworm. And yeah, I've danced to it at a party, but the song is more than that to me. My favourite pop songs of this year are Sigrid's Don't Kill My Vibe, Carly Rae Jepsen's Cut To The Feeling, Haim's Want You Back, The Weeknd and Daft Punk's I Feel It Coming and Kesha's Learn to Let Go and Rainbow. I thin everyone of those songs is complex and worthy of serious thought while still being pure pop music.

To try to boil it down to girls like songs that are fun and guys like song that make them think is so reductive in my eyes. I, as a woman, am a complex person who is able to enjoy different songs in different ways and sometimes even the same song in different ways depending on the context.

[dr. gailey]

Is this the thread to try to find out who sings a song?

I need help finding the title of a song, but I don't know any of the words and who sings it.

I always hear it in a noisy place and the tail end of it.

A man sings it while he plays guitar. All I ever catch is him saying, ooooo, ooooo.

[27bored]

nm

Edited September 18, 2017 by 27bored

[27bored]

16 hours ago, dr. gailey said:

Is this the thread to try to find out who sings a song?

I need help finding the title of a song, but I don't know any of the words and who sings it.

I always hear it in a noisy place and the tail end of it.

A man sings it while he plays guitar. All I ever catch is him saying, ooooo, ooooo.

Is this a current song? Like, would it be played on the radio?

 

I came to post about something that kinda bugs me. Someone in the Taylor Swift thread mentioned an article talking about we just can't handle Taylor being wonderful and really, our problems with her are our problems with ourselves.

These types of articles are exceedingly annoying, but I have to ask as a matter of gender politics: has anyone ever noticed how we only do this when it comes to female musicians? Like, I've often told wanted to tell women that part of the reason why Things Are Different For Women is because, in some ways, we are a bit nicer and more forgiving of women than men. I'm just saying. People don't write a bunch of thinkpieces talking about how maybe we need to ease up on Justin Bieber for being an obnoxious douchebag. The situation between Chris Brown and Rihanna happened when Chris was 19 and people still eagerly bring it up like there's a break in the case. When Shawn Mendes came out with the Nice Guy anthem "Treat You Better", a lot of people excoriated him for being a simp. But when a female is on some bullshit and doing the most, rest assured somebody is going to play the Chick Card or the Race Card to cop pleas for herself. It's not fair.

[dr. gailey]

Yes the song is being played on the radio. I just have no idea who it is. It sounds like a young guy either teens or twenties. I don't listen to the radio often so it could be any of the new young artists.

[GaT]

2 hours ago, dr. gailey said:

Yes the song is being played on the radio. I just have no idea who it is. It sounds like a young guy either teens or twenties. I don't listen to the radio often so it could be any of the new young artists.

Shawn Mendes?

[dr. gailey]

I will look him up.

[27bored]

4 hours ago, GaT said:

Shawn Mendes?

 

3 hours ago, dr. gailey said:

I will look him up.

If it's a current song it's probably Believer by Imagine Dragons. It goes ooooh in parts.

[vibeology]

12 hours ago, 27bored said:

I came to post about something that kinda bugs me. Someone in the Taylor Swift thread mentioned an article talking about we just can't handle Taylor being wonderful and really, our problems with her are our problems with ourselves.

These types of articles are exceedingly annoying, but I have to ask as a matter of gender politics: has anyone ever noticed how we only do this when it comes to female musicians? Like, I've often told wanted to tell women that part of the reason why Things Are Different For Women is because, in some ways, we are a bit nicer and more forgiving of women than men. I'm just saying. People don't write a bunch of thinkpieces talking about how maybe we need to ease up on Justin Bieber for being an obnoxious douchebag. The situation between Chris Brown and Rihanna happened when Chris was 19 and people still eagerly bring it up like there's a break in the case. When Shawn Mendes came out with the Nice Guy anthem "Treat You Better", a lot of people excoriated him for being a simp. But when a female is on some bullshit and doing the most, rest assured somebody is going to play the Chick Card or the Race Card to cop pleas for herself. It's not fair.

This has never been my experience. Chris Brown beat Rihanna to the point that she wasn't recognizable and he still has a record deal, still gets radio play and still gets invited to perform at important industry events. The industry and society have been more than forgiving of him. People who bring it up do so because they are appalled that that is the case. I am appalled that we're still talking about this abusive trash in the year 2017. (And if you want to have a conversation about how race plays into this, I'm here for that because I do think it's sketchy as fuck that we drag Chris Brown way more than Sean Penn, for example but the solution to that problem isn't to forgive Brown, but rather drag Penn more.)

The reality is we as a society are much harder on women. What woman could get away with what Chris Brown did and still have a career? Or even behave like Bieber, being an asshole to fans, barely performing and cancelling tours willy-nilly (for non medical reasons as an example) and still have a fandom? Or be Zayn who cancelled everything at the last minute for medical reason? Or say the things Cee-Lo said and have a career. Or be Dr. Luke, who still is making money off of Kesha.

The reason people write articles defending someone like Taylor is because there are hundreds of articles going after her not for being unprofessional or a criminal but just for being someone who wrote a whiny song. (And it is a whiny song and she needs to grow up and get out of her own ass. Her fame cannot just be about her own persona. That will always collapse in on itself - look at Gaga before her.) The scrutiny women in the industry deal with is on a whole other level than the men. It's not even close. Like, I do not like Taylor so I'm not the best person to take up her defense and I do think her choices warrant some dragging but the idea that women have it easier is a joke to me. Being a white male is living life on the easiest setting there is - the "chick card" or the "race card" are bs words white men (almost exclusively) use to try to play victim of a system designed for their own success.

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

This has never been my experience. Chris Brown beat Rihanna to the point that she wasn't recognizable and he still has a record deal, still gets radio play and still gets invited to perform at important industry events. The industry and society have been more than forgiving of him. People who bring it up do so because they are appalled that that is the case. I am appalled that we're still talking about this abusive trash in the year 2017. (And if you want to have a conversation about how race plays into this, I'm here for that because I do think it's sketchy as fuck that we drag Chris Brown way more than Sean Penn, for example but the solution to that problem isn't to forgive Brown, but rather drag Penn more.)

The reality is we as a society are much harder on women. What woman could get away with what Chris Brown did and still have a career? Or even behave like Bieber, being an asshole to fans, barely performing and cancelling tours willy-nilly (for non medical reasons as an example) and still have a fandom? Or be Zayn who cancelled everything at the last minute for medical reason? Or say the things Cee-Lo said and have a career. Or be Dr. Luke, who still is making money off of Kesha.

The reason people write articles defending someone like Taylor is because there are hundreds of articles going after her not for being unprofessional or a criminal but just for being someone who wrote a whiny song. (And it is a whiny song and she needs to grow up and get out of her own ass. Her fame cannot just be about her own persona. That will always collapse in on itself - look at Gaga before her.) The scrutiny women in the industry deal with is on a whole other level than the men. It's not even close. Like, I do not like Taylor so I'm not the best person to take up her defense and I do think her choices warrant some dragging but the idea that women have it easier is a joke to me. Being a white male is living life on the easiest setting there is - the "chick card" or the "race card" are bs words white men (almost exclusively) use to try to play victim of a system designed for their own success.

This is so brilliantly stated. Like you, I am not here for some of  Taylor's bullshit and have called it out and certainly have no time for some publications making it seem like people are only coming at her for being a strong and powerful woman. But for one to suggest that women somehow are treated nicer and people are more forgiving? Really...? Women that are constantly judged as too sexy, not sexy enough, too skinny, not skinny enough, etc. They're either the Virgin or the Whore, Saint or Sinner and one wrong move can turn a Saint into Sinner. Because if we want to make this a gender and feminist discussion, let us remember that in many ways women are still marginalized and men, mostly white males, still control a lot in this country, including much of the music industry, no matter how much the Nazi loving racists would like to insist they're being erased.

Like you said, how much bad behavior have many male artists gotten away with? And yes, maybe no one's writing long think pieces defending them but that's probably because there's no need to, since their careers manage to remain completely in tact despite their actions. To use Bieber as an example, despite everything he's done, he'll release an album right now and it will still sell. Just like he'll go back on tour and his fans will still show up no matter all that he's done.

And I am tired of some acting like Chris Brown is still being punished for one mistake he made. Putting aside that this "mistake" including choking his girlfriend till she passed out and leaving her bloodied and battered body in a car on the side of a road like trash, Chris has brought a lot of criticism on himself by a lot of his actions and behavior after the Rihanna incident. People can't ever move on from that and think it was just one mistake because since then he's thrown chairs out of GMA studios, in the heart of Time Square, gotten into fights with women and men, violated probation too many times to count, is clearly on drugs, had a restraining order slapped on him to stay away from another ex-girlfriend, etc. All this by the way and he's still never actually gone to jail. 

There is simply no way in my opinion that MEN are judged harsher or unfairly versus WOMEN - NONE.

Edited September 18, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[27bored]

7 hours ago, vibeology said:

This has never been my experience. Chris Brown beat Rihanna to the point that she wasn't recognizable and he still has a record deal, still gets radio play and still gets invited to perform at important industry events. The industry and society have been more than forgiving of him. People who bring it up do so because they are appalled that that is the case. I am appalled that we're still talking about this abusive trash in the year 2017. (And if you want to have a conversation about how race plays into this, I'm here for that because I do think it's sketchy as fuck that we drag Chris Brown way more than Sean Penn, for example but the solution to that problem isn't to forgive Brown, but rather drag Penn more.)

 

I didn't bring up Chris Brown in order to diminish what he did. My point is that we have no problem holding that against him in perpetuity, yet when it's a female who has a shitty behavior in her past, eventually someone is going to play the sex and/or race card to defend her. Also, my "solution" to that problem is that we kind of need to let it go. Not because it's not a big deal, but because it's in the past, Rihanna's forgiven him and barely speaks on it, and he's been held accountable under the law. It feels kind of petty the way people constantly bring that up, to be honest.

Quote

The reality is we as a society are much harder on women. What woman could get away with what Chris Brown did and still have a career? Or even behave like Bieber, being an asshole to fans, barely performing and cancelling tours willy-nilly (for non medical reasons as an example) and still have a fandom? Or be Zayn who cancelled everything at the last minute for medical reason? Or say the things Cee-Lo said and have a career. Or be Dr. Luke, who still is making money off of Kesha.

To answer your questions all at once: any woman who was as famous as those men are. Chris Brown has a career because, personal controversy aside, he's still as good as he used to be at what he does. We've turned him into a trainwreck celebrity, not unlike the Kardashians, because we hear about all his bullshit. Bieber and Zayn had a little built-in goodwill from their fans prior to the trips to Crazytown, and my guess is things will start to slow down for them if they don't start focusing (The fact that Bieber has had two #1 hits this year and we've barely heard a peep from him aside). I can't say I know what you mean by Cee-Lo's comments, but...when's the last time we as a collective cared about a Cee-Lo Green record? I can't include Dr. Luke because things he's done have been allegations made that have largely been thrown out of court, and he's fought them at every turn. He's still making money off of Kesha because of contracts she signed. But Dr. Luke hasn't had a radio hit in awhile in part because of the fallout of the Kesha allegations.

Quote

The reason people write articles defending someone like Taylor is because there are hundreds of articles going after her not for being unprofessional or a criminal but just for being someone who wrote a whiny song. (And it is a whiny song and she needs to grow up and get out of her own ass. Her fame cannot just be about her own persona. That will always collapse in on itself - look at Gaga before her.) The scrutiny women in the industry deal with is on a whole other level than the men. It's not even close. Like, I do not like Taylor so I'm not the best person to take up her defense and I do think her choices warrant some dragging but the idea that women have it easier is a joke to me. Being a white male is living life on the easiest setting there is - the "chick card" or the "race card" are bs words white men (almost exclusively) use to try to play victim of a system designed for their own success.

Well, again my answer comes down to proportionality. If you're a big star, the criticism you get is always going to seem as big as the praise, even if it's just some comments on a YouTube video, some mean tweets, or a slow-news-day thinkpiece. With the good come the bad, to some extent, but I'm moreso talking about this notion that we're being unfair to Taylor by pointing out how petty and whiny she comes across. To be clear, I do think some of the "hate" she gets is unfair, but unfair in the sense of critical inertia. Basically, once we get an idea of someone in our heads, true or false, it takes us a long time to change that wiring. I kind of think that's something women perpetrate against other women heavily, but it gets written off as "sexism" because that's the more convenient rationale. It's not unfair because it's patently untrue or holding her to some unattainable standard.

 

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

This is so brilliantly stated. Like you, I am not here for some of  Taylor's bullshit and have called it out and certainly have no time for some publications making it seem like people are only coming at her for being a strong and powerful woman. But for one to suggest that women somehow are treated nicer and people are more forgiving? Really...? Women that are constantly judged as too sexy, not sexy enough, too skinny, not skinny enough, etc. They're either the Virgin or the Whore, Saint or Sinner and one wrong move can turn a Saint into Sinner. Because if we want to make this a gender and feminist discussion, let us remember that in many ways women are still marginalized and men, mostly white males, still control a lot in this country, including much of the music industry, no matter how much the Nazi loving racists would like to insist they're being erased.

None of those criticisms or judgments are exclusively, or even chiefly, generated from straight men of any color. I've never once cared how sexy a female artist is. My thing is, and I think there are a lot of men who are like this, we like women who seem sexy in a natural, feminine way, not in a way that's too calculated, tarted up, or female female impersonator. If anything, many women's need to be sexy kind of diminishes their talent, and it's not just women who are under the thumbs of their corporate overlords, I mean women who have some equity and control over their image, and they would still rather clap their ass cheeks together in a skimpy outfit than do something a bit more tasteful (i.e. most of the female pop stars we think about). Even Taylor went from cute, Country girl to writhing around in hot pants and thigh-highs. I've been waiting for someone to explain to me why transparent sexuality = "grown-up", but apparently that trend isn't going anywhere. To be honest, I find "Love So Soft" by Kelly Clarkson sexier than a lot of other sexy songs about sex, because Kelly actually sounds like a grown ass woman who knows what she's talking about.

Quote

Like you said, how much bad behavior have many male artists gotten away with? And yes, maybe no one's writing long think pieces defending them but that's probably because there's no need to, since their careers manage to remain completely in tact despite their actions. To use Bieber as an example, despite everything he's done, he'll release an album right now and it will still sell. Just like he'll go back on tour and his fans will still show up no matter all that he's done.

OK, but this is comparing Bieber's fans with his treatment in the media. You're right: his fans probably will forgive a lot of his BS if he came to town. That's kinda how fans work -- a lot of the times they won't just abandon someone they really like just over a few slights. I'll also mention that most of those fans are probably women (young girls) and this is likely true for female artists as well. Nobody's going to not go see Taylor Swift because some people on Twitter think she's petty (as further evidenced by the fact that she's sitting comfortably at #1 on Billboard right now)

Quote

And I am tired of some acting like Chris Brown is still being punished for one mistake he made. Putting aside that this "mistake" including choking his girlfriend till she passed out and leaving her bloodied and battered body in a car on the side of a road like trash, Chris has brought a lot of criticism on himself by a lot of his actions and behavior after the Rihanna incident. People can't ever move on from that and think it was just one mistake because since then he's thrown chairs out of GMA studios, in the heart of Time Square, gotten into fights with women and men, violated probation too many times to count, is clearly on drugs, had a restraining order slapped on him to stay away from another ex-girlfriend, etc. All this by the way and he's still never actually gone to jail. 

There is simply no way in my opinion that MEN are judged harsher or unfairly versus WOMEN - NONE.

So, to start with, Chris Brown did go to jail on the second criminal charge he got for fighting with a man in D.C.

My point about us being a bit nicer to women is from my vantage point as a male, which means I'm hopelessly biased. But in my opinion it comes down to a certain equilibrium. We're a bit more forgiving of women, we're a bit nicer -- and I know from experience, and you can ask almost any guy you know, regardless of what walk of life we come from, you're kind of taught from a young age to be nice to girls, don't say this or do that to girls, because they're precious and/or more sensitive than boys -- because of this ever-present notion of sexism. Of course, the thing that messes a lot of guys up is, the older we get, the more we see women demanding "equality", but it always seems conditional. So that's why in some ways, women have it easier...because we're wired to not hold women to the same standard that we would men, even if it's the same scenario.

Take Chris Brown for example. Leave aside all of his other bullshit for a second and just focus on the Rihanna incident. If you believe Chris -- and he spoke about this in a documentary recently, which allegedly Rihanna saw beforehand and agreed to let him put out -- Rihanna was upset with him because she thought he was cheating on her, and he says he wasn't. He says that the entire physical confrontation was because she hit him first, again, because she was angry. She slapped him and grabbed his balls and that's why he bit her. He still made a choice to hit her back, but he didn't intend to physically assault her the way he did because of his own rage or anger at something she did.

Now, I don't want to re-litigate that whole matter (because there's nothing to debate, really), but I'd make two points:

1. If Chris had gotten into the same altercation with a man, we wouldn't keep bringing this up. It would just be two guys got in a fight and one of them got fucked up. The end. Not to say people wouldn't dislike it, but we'd kind of move on from it...similar to how we don't really bring up the fact that Mark Wahlberg blinded a man he attacked when he was younger. It's messed up when you think about it, but it's not a footnote to every story you hear about him, either.

2. We especially wouldn't blame Chris if he got into a physical altercation with a man and the man is the one who precipitated the fight. We would shrug and say, "well, next time he'll think twice before picking a fight with someone."

Furthermore, I'd argue just as a matter of how people and psychology and whatnot work, a lot of Chris Brown's other troubles have been because of a lingering bitterness and resentment over that situation. He probably hated having to accept all the blame for what happened when Rihanna was the one who started the altercation, especially over something he didn't do. It was good advice from his lawyer to keep his ass out of jail, but having to suck it up and deal with every time his name comes up, somebody has to mention his assault on Rihanna probably wore on him. And his life got uglier, messier, he started smoking weed, getting tattoos, hanging out with thugs, etc. To be clear, none of that absolves Chris of choices he's made, it doesn't make him likable or innocent, but I do think there's a little bit of a sexual politics angle to this in our reluctance to move on from it.

At the end of the day, I think there are some prevailing ideas that tilt in favor of men, and some that tilt in favor of women. You (the general "you") can't pick-and-choose when to play the sexism card, because for every example you notice, there's probably another that you don't.

Edited September 18, 2017 by 27bored

[dr. gailey]

It wasn't Believer so I am still looking.

[MyAimIsTrue]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:25 AM, Cranberry said:

This discussion reminds me of that study that said people stop listening to new music at age 33.

A little late to the party but this is interesting as I would have been 33 in 1998 and I stopped listening to new music around 1993.  Close enough.  I even remember writing to Rolling Stone magazine to tell them why I was cancelling my subscription in that I didn't think the crap they were featuring as cover stories in the early/mid 1990's would have the staying power of the bands I loved such as the Beatles and Led Zeppelin.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 9/18/2017 at 9:18 AM, vibeology said:

The reason people write articles defending someone like Taylor is because there are hundreds of articles going after her not for being unprofessional or a criminal but just for being someone who wrote a whiny song. (And it is a whiny song and she needs to grow up and get out of her own ass. Her fame cannot just be about her own persona. That will always collapse in on itself - look at Gaga before her.) The scrutiny women in the industry deal with is on a whole other level than the men. It's not even close. Like, I do not like Taylor so I'm not the best person to take up her defense and I do think her choices warrant some dragging but the idea that women have it easier is a joke to me. Being a white male is living life on the easiest setting there is - the "chick card" or the "race card" are bs words white men (almost exclusively) use to try to play victim of a system designed for their own success.

A whiny song?

Back however long ago when it was revealed that Swift was dating Tom Hiddleston, the first question from many people was "What will their breakup song be like?" That doesn't happen in a vacuum, not when pretty much her entire career before this most recent CD has been based on "We broke up and now I hate you, unless I miss you because I treated you badly." I think that Taylor is an expert at playing the PR game, which is why now she's reinventing herself a little bit with Look What You Made Me Do. But I also think that she's a bad breaker-upper - (TM) Seinfeld - and that's reflected in a lot of her early music. No one would be inclined to let it slide if Bieber had a single called You Belong With Me, nor should they, and I don't see why Swift shouldn't be called out for being kind of a Nice Girl just because she's blonde and moderately pretty.

[Silver Raven]

Siervas.  A group of Peruvian nun Christian rock musicians, who are expected to be getting a Grammy nomination.  The guitarist shreds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivzWPLDFVw
 

[GaT]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

A whiny song?

Back however long ago when it was revealed that Swift was dating Tom Hiddleston, the first question from many people was "What will their breakup song be like?" That doesn't happen in a vacuum, not when pretty much her entire career before this most recent CD has been based on "We broke up and now I hate you, unless I miss you because I treated you badly." 

But you never hear anybody say things like this about Adele, whose almost every song is a dirge about failed love. It just so happens that her failed relationships weren't with someone famous, & that's the only reason people are interested in Taylor's "break up" songs.

[Silver Raven]

Just now, GaT said:

But you never hear anybody say things like this about Adele, whose almost every song is a dirge about failed love. It just so happens that her failed relationships weren't with someone famous, & that's the only reason people are interested in Taylor's "break up" songs.

Adele doesn't blame the guy for all of her breakups, though, nor does she whine about how non-relationship people are mean to her.

[truthaboutluv]

37 minutes ago, GaT said:

But you never hear anybody say things like this about Adele, whose almost every song is a dirge about failed love. It just so happens that her failed relationships weren't with someone famous, & that's the only reason people are interested in Taylor's "break up" songs.

 

36 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

Adele doesn't blame the guy for all of her breakups, though, nor does she whine about how non-relationship people are mean to her.

Not to mention that Adele's songs about her relationship was about ONE relationship. The entire 21 album was about ONE relationship that lasted for more than two years. And the relationship songs on 19, Adele's first album was about the same guy she wrote about on 21, who she was in the relationship with at the time she did 19 and after it was released and her fame grew. Swift supporters have been trying that argument for awhile now. "But Adele sings about relationships and no one talks about her like they do Taylor". 

Yes, Adele's ex wasn't famous (or he could be and people just don't know. Like how it's famously believed that Alanis Morrisette's Jagged Little Pill album was about Dave Coulier since the relationship happened before Alanis was famous) but that's not the reason Adele doesn't get the judgement Taylor gets. For starters, all of Adele's music isn't all about how wronged she was and how awful every single guy was to her, like she herself has no culpability ever.

Two, she didn't build a reputation of making thinly veiled jabs in her songs about people and proudly and smugly admitting it and declaring that if guys don't want her to write about them then they shouldn't do bad things. She didn't have a parade of multiple two minute relationships with famous people and then proceed to write multiple songs about said relationship like it was some epic love story. And finally, when Adele is asked about her past relationship that she chose to write an entire album about, she doesn't act like people are being rude, anti-feminists and slut shaming her for sticking to a narrative that she helped create. That's the difference. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Cobalt Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, GaT said:

But you never hear anybody say things like this about Adele, whose almost every song is a dirge about failed love. It just so happens that her failed relationships weren't with someone famous, & that's the only reason people are interested in Taylor's "break up" songs.

I've seen the Adele comparison before, and on a superficial level you're correct. But you could say the same about a dozen other female singers. Christina Perri's Jar of Hearts sounds exactly like something Taylor would sing - "Who do you think you are? Running 'round leaving scars? Collecting your jar of hearts,  and tearing love apart?" But there's a way where Taylor seems particularly manipulative about it, and I can't accurately describe it because it's so subjective. And if I can just make an observation, there's a way where criticizing her somehow turns into criticizing all women, as if the acknowledged existence of sexism means we shouldn't differentiate.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Cobalt Stargazer

[truthaboutluv]

Almost every singer/musician has songs about relationships. As the old saying goes, the two greatest themes of art, are love and death. It's like 90 percent of what every movie, song, art, dance, etc. is about. So really we can point to any singer and find songs they've done about a relationship, whether good or bad. The difference again is that Taylor helped shape and create a narrative around herself that she takes no responsibility for. That's the problem.

Okay, she was young when she started and maybe made some choices with her songs and image that she regrets, which is fine. The problem is that well into her mid-20's she was still doing the, "my latest celebrity fling ended, ooh, time to write song about said guy while not mentioning his name but everyone will know it's about him" and then she later tries to put on some feminist cape and accuse people of slut shaming when they focus on and call out the narrative she helped create. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[vibeology]

22 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

A whiny song?

I know. I meant this album cycle. I know there's another song out but I haven't heard it and the articles and backlash in the past few weeks are mainly a reaction to LWYMMD as a song and video.

[janie jones]

I'm not going to pretend I know either Taylor Swift's or Adele's entire oeuvre, but the first thing I think of when the lyrics of the two are compared is that Adele doesn't spend half of the time comparing herself to other people.

Not to mention Adele isn't contradictory/hypocritical within her songs (cf. "Mean," in which Taylor says some pretty mean things, and "Shake it Off," whose mere existence is a demonstration of her not shaking it off).

Edited September 20, 2017 by janie jones

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:30 AM, vibeology said:

I know. I meant this album cycle. I know there's another song out but I haven't heard it and the articles and backlash in the past few weeks are mainly a reaction to LWYMMD as a song and video.

General question, because I don't know the answer and I would like to - why does it only seem to be Taylor Swift who gets people lunging to her defense, regardless of if they actually like her or her music or not?

Granted, it's more of a celebrity-related peeve, but the conversation started here, so. People who call Miley Cyrus a twerking skank get less heat than people who call Taylor an often manipulative wench, and I would think that the former would be the greater offense, even if Miley Cyrus is a twerking skank. I don't really like Miley, but I think the way she grew up is part of what's wrong, that like many child actors in the past she had to mature too fast in addition to apparently being the breadwinner of the family. Does her dad even record these days? Taylor doesn't seem to have that issue, or if she does I'm not aware of it. Being well-adjusted is certainly not a crime, but I don't get why there's such a passion to protect her from any and all criticism.

[GaT]

22 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

General question, because I don't know the answer and I would like to - why does it only seem to be Taylor Swift who gets people lunging to her defense, regardless of if they actually like her or her music or not?

 

Kanye West. What he did was such a dick move that it pretty much put everyone into "defend Taylor" mode & they stayed there. 

[UYI]

45 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

General question, because I don't know the answer and I would like to - why does it only seem to be Taylor Swift who gets people lunging to her defense, regardless of if they actually like her or her music or not?

 

I think a lot of it has to do with people (either young women who grew up listening to her, or more old-fashioned parents who liked that she "kept her clothes on") wanting to hold on to the image she started with--the idea that she was a wholesome, modest Everygirl who sang country music (or pop country music), and wrote and sang about simple things like having crushes on boys at school who didn't seem to notice you, even though that's all but gone now (and had signs of not being all that genuine even early on). By contrast, Britney Spears, even when she was 16-17 and had only one album out, was more openly provocative, even as her own sweet personality shined through. And I'm sure Britney's breakdown occurring right as Taylor was starting to find success played a factor, too--the idea that this young woman (Taylor) had her head on straight, and wouldn't lose her way like they felt Britney did.

 

Now, of course, a lot of this is up for debate, but these are my main impressions. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by UYI

[Annber03]

57 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

General question, because I don't know the answer and I would like to - why does it only seem to be Taylor Swift who gets people lunging to her defense, regardless of if they actually like her or her music or not?

Granted, it's more of a celebrity-related peeve, but the conversation started here, so. People who call Miley Cyrus a twerking skank get less heat than people who call Taylor an often manipulative wench, and I would think that the former would be the greater offense, even if Miley Cyrus is a twerking skank. I don't really like Miley, but I think the way she grew up is part of what's wrong, that like many child actors in the past she had to mature too fast in addition to apparently being the breadwinner of the family. Does her dad even record these days? Taylor doesn't seem to have that issue, or if she does I'm not aware of it. Being well-adjusted is certainly not a crime, but I don't get why there's such a passion to protect her from any and all criticism.

Speaking for myself, I got annoyed with that stuff with Miley, too, for the very reasons you mention. I think anyone who starts out as a teen pop star tends to have a rough road ahead of them because of all the contradictory demands people make of them and their image, and they're in an industry where skeezy people can and do take advantage of them in all sorts of ways, and so people really shouldn't be all that shocked when they go through their "wild" periods as a result. Society's seen this story play out so many times, you'd think we would've learned how to better respond to all of it by now. 

Plus, I'm just really uncomfortable with the whole "skanky"/"slutty" terminology for women in general anyway, and the whole thing of judging women for how they dress or how sexual they are. The "growing up too fast" concerns are completely valid, but calling a teenage girl a "skank" or a "slut" doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable response to those concerns. And if the teenage girl's parents haven't enforced any sorts of boundaries for her, then she's probably not going to respond well to the criticisms of adults who aren't her parents, either. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Annber03

[janie jones]

10 hours ago, GaT said:

Kanye West. What he did was such a dick move that it pretty much put everyone into "defend Taylor" mode & they stayed there. 

Can I just say that the thing I love about the Kanye West thing at the VMAs is that although I've heard a lot of people talk about how rude, etc. that was of him, I myself have never once heard someone disagree with him.  Which I think is funny.  (Well, I mean, poor Taylor, because I'm sure it was mortifying, but still.)

[GaT]

1 minute ago, janie jones said:

because I'm sure it was mortifying

What I can't understand is why you never hear anybody talk about how mortifying it must have been for Beyonce. Can you imagine what she must have thought when Kanye suddenly dragged her into that? She handled it gracefully I thought, but still, she must have been horrified. All because Kanye was a drunk asshole.

[janie jones]

Well, probably because Beyonce wasn't in the middle of attempting to give an acceptance speech on the award in question when it happened, and then still had to give it immediately after it happened.  And it wasn't Beyonce who was being insulted.

Not that I don't agree that it must have been awful for Beyonce.

[UYI]

If you watch the clip, when he says it, Beyonce kind of smiles in disbelief and says, "Oh, Kanye." It was probably an awkward smile because she was embarrassed and didn't know how else to react. She did give Taylor the mic to finish her speech when Beyonce wound up winning Video of the Year (the big award, as opposed to Best Female Video, which Taylor beat her for--you should have been more patient, Kanye!), something I'm sure she felt some pressure to do so she wouldn't look even worse because of Kanye. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by UYI

[Watermelon]

On 9/22/2017 at 9:34 AM, UYI said:

If you watch the clip, when he says it, Beyonce kind of smiles in disbelief and says, "Oh, Kanye." It was probably an awkward smile because she was embarrassed and didn't know how else to react. She did give Taylor the mic to finish her speech when Beyonce wound up winning Video of the Year (the big award, as opposed to Best Female Video, which Taylor beat her for--you should have been more patient, Kanye!), something I'm sure she felt some pressure to do so she wouldn't look even worse because of Kanye. 

The annoying part was it was completely obvious to sober people that of COURSE Beyoncé was going to win video of the year so of course they would give best female to someone else. VMAs don't do that one person wins all the awards thing

[Silver Raven]

This is so cute and nostalgic.  Macklemore ft. Kesha

[27bored]

On 9/18/2017 at 5:23 PM, dr. gailey said:

It wasn't Believer so I am still looking.

Did you ever find out the song?

On 9/19/2017 at 3:03 PM, GaT said:

But you never hear anybody say things like this about Adele, whose almost every song is a dirge about failed love. It just so happens that her failed relationships weren't with someone famous, & that's the only reason people are interested in Taylor's "break up" songs.

This is a decent point, but Adele has a great voice to just enjoy to where what she's singing is kind of secondary. Taylor's a fair-to-middling singer -- she sings like a songwriter -- which makes her break-up songs sound less romantic and performative. Taylor's writing reminds me of a Dane Cook bit where he says when guys break up with women, they just walk around their apartments naked and then somehow wind up on the floor doing little rhythms with their hands. He says those turn into awful songs about their exes like, "someone's a big fat biiiiitch ... I see your cellulite-lite ..."

On 9/19/2017 at 3:45 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Almost every singer/musician has songs about relationships. As the old saying goes, the two greatest themes of art, are love and death. It's like 90 percent of what every movie, song, art, dance, etc. is about. So really we can point to any singer and find songs they've done about a relationship, whether good or bad. The difference again is that Taylor helped shape and create a narrative around herself that she takes no responsibility for. That's the problem.

Sidebar: this is why I like Pink. She's amassed a bunch of hits without always singing about love in the amorous sense. I'm tired of those love songs.

On 9/21/2017 at 2:45 PM, Annber03 said:

Speaking for myself, I got annoyed with that stuff with Miley, too, for the very reasons you mention. I think anyone who starts out as a teen pop star tends to have a rough road ahead of them because of all the contradictory demands people make of them and their image, and they're in an industry where skeezy people can and do take advantage of them in all sorts of ways, and so people really shouldn't be all that shocked when they go through their "wild" periods as a result. Society's seen this story play out so many times, you'd think we would've learned how to better respond to all of it by now. 

Plus, I'm just really uncomfortable with the whole "skanky"/"slutty" terminology for women in general anyway, and the whole thing of judging women for how they dress or how sexual they are. The "growing up too fast" concerns are completely valid, but calling a teenage girl a "skank" or a "slut" doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable response to those concerns. And if the teenage girl's parents haven't enforced any sorts of boundaries for her, then she's probably not going to respond well to the criticisms of adults who aren't her parents, either. 

Eh. I can't really give Miley the same benefit of the doubt. I think this idea of young women growing up in the spotlight and sort of "acting out" was A Thing back with Christina and Britney just because of where we were culturally. Miley's acting out phase seemed way too calculated and overdetermined. It seemed more embarrassing than anything else. And I think a lot of people wanted Miley to go the more adult contemporary/pop-rock route like Kelly Clarkson and the aforementioned Pink, or even Country.

I'm not quick on the draw with calling women skanky or slutty, but I do think those terms are used when a female is being a little too obvious about trying to be sexual. I don't think most people are going to call any female a slut because she has on a short skirt or her midriff is showing. The other reason is that sometimes young female artists try to sex up non-sexy songs. "Wrecking Ball" -- bad production aside -- was a song about ruining a relationship because you're doing too much. It's not a sexy song at all, but Miley had to writhe around on a literal wrecking ball naked. I didn't think she was slutty, but that is the kind of thing people would consider slutty.

[UYI]

Cardi B ("Bodak Yellow") is officially the first female rapper to have a solo number one hit on the Billboard Hot 100 since Lauryn Hill ("Doo Wop (That Thing)")19 years ago!

[UYI]

[27bored]

Congratulations to Cardi B! I'm so happy for her. 

[dr. gailey]

No I haven't found the song yet.

[Silver Raven]

Todd in the Shadows eviscerates "Look What You Made Me Do".

[BW Manilowe]

From Variety: The Eagles, Garth Brooks, Train, More on Deck for Dan Fogelberg Tribute Album

[Silver Raven]

Lin Manuel Miranda's new music video/single to raise money for Puerto Rico.

 

With Marc Anthony, Ruben Blades, Camila Cabello, Pedro Capo, Dessa, Gloria Estefan, Fat Joe, Luis Fonsi, Juan Luis Guerra, Alex Lacamoire, John Leguizamo, Jennifer Lopez, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Rita Moreno, Ednita Nazario, Joell Ortiz, Anthony Ramos, Gina Rodriguez, Gilberto Santa Rosa, PJ Sin Suela, Tommy Torres, Ana Villafañe.

 

[UYI]

20 years ago today. Gone WAY too soon.

 

[Annber03]

Oh, my god, it's been that long? 

Dang.