S34: James "J.T." Thomas, Jr.

[loki567]

I like JT but this has to be it for him, right? I mean sometimes it's clear a player is never going to accomplish more than they did their first time and it's just diminishing returns. 

[LanceM]

Well Fishbach was conveniently traveling today so he did not appear on RHAP tonight. lol

[Vyk]

5 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I like JT but this has to be it for him, right? I mean sometimes it's clear a player is never going to accomplish more than they did their first time and it's just diminishing returns. 

Given that J.T.'s actually gotten worse each time rather than better, it'd sure better be for him.  His final words made it sound like this was his last time, at least.

[LadyChatts]

I notice that the extra clips are up on the website, but not on Youtube (yet).  Besides the challenge clips.  Not sure if CBS is going back to make everyone subscribe to All Access to watch them?  

Anyway, JT's day after was posted.  I feel like he really does not get the error of his game play.  He finally mentioned not playing the idol as a big reason why he went home, but seems to blame the tribe swap and being outnumbered more.  Which if he didn't have the idol would have made sense.  But for anyone that's ever been royally screwed over by a tribe swap, I would think they'd be wearing that idol around their neck for all to see.  JT really was in a fantastic position.  Had he made it to the next swap, he could have easily gone deep into the merge, maybe even the final 3 again.  And seeing that Aubry voted with him tonight makes his blunder last week look even more idiotic.  

Quote

I like JT but this has to be it for him, right? I mean sometimes it's clear a player is never going to accomplish more than they did their first time and it's just diminishing returns. 

l'd say yes, but who knows.  Even if JT were to say in interviews tomorrow that he was done, it doesn't mean he won't change his mind if asked again.  Should he come back, he needs to do absolutely nothing.  And say nothing.  Be a goat, a sheep, whatever.  Maybe that'll work out better for him next time.  Because I can't imagine him coming back a 4th time and seeing him repeating his mistakes.  I think he would.  However, one thing he might have in his favor is that because he made such horrible blunders for HvsV and GC, maybe he'll be underestimated the next time.  

Of course, that's if I believe he wouldn't try even harder to make up for his blunders this time around, only to get himself voted off yet again.

[KimberStormer]

4 hours ago, Vyk said:

I really don't see how you can justify or defend him now, @KimberStormer. 

Why do I have to?  He completely blew it today.  I'm sort of glad he and Ciera are gone so I don't have to do all the talking talking talking.

I don't think he played badly until this point, though.  Getting an unlucky swap is not his fault.  His move last week was still right.  He still played great in HvV.  I can't help it if you guys are wrong about that stuff, I'm still right.  (That's why the only thing I ever argue about online is Survivor: because it doesn't matter in any way and I am always right!)

Thinking people had fallen for his scrambling target of Michaela?  Dumb.  Sandra played him like a thrift-store fiddle.  Not playing his idol, we can politely call delusionally optimistic.  Not even bringing his idol, absolutely bananas!

[Jextella]

17 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Not playing his idol, we can politely call delusionally optimistic.  Not even bringing his idol, absolutely bananas!

I like JT.  Anyone who spares animals is aces with me.  But it seems that those who go home with an idol in their pocket (or back at camp) kinda get what's coming to them, right?  They must be so far out of the loop they have no clue.  

Edited March 30, 2017 by Jextella

[NurseGiGi]

I just loved JT in Tocantins and enjoyed watching his friendship with Stephen.  However, he definitely ruined his legacy by returning to the game.  Diminishing returns, indeed.

[ProfCrash]

bwwwaahahahahahah

Worst winner ever. Seriously. I think Fabio can play the game better then JT.

JT implodes every time he plays the game unless he has someone to hold his hand and take him to the finals. I know he has charm and can play a good social game but we did not see that this season. He was so unhinged my Michaela. What the hell was that about?

He had some good moves, the swim back to get the plyers and then searching for the idol. He found the idol quickly and covered his track. Good for him.

But he botches tribal last week. His behavior cost him an ally and put an even larger target on his back. He went to Brad when he had nothing to negotiate with. Why would Brad vote out Sandra? Sandra is not going to help her tribe win immunities and is not going to win individual immunities. In Brad's mind, Sandra is a non-threat. Malcom can help his tribe win challenges and can win individual immunity. So JT tells Brad that they are voting for Sierra and tries to get Brad to vote for Sandra but cannot negotiate to get what he wants.

JT had a target on his back in his new tribe so I don't think it totally sunk his game but it was still stupid. You don't offer that up until you know that they will target the person you want to go is the target. Whatever, Sandra was targeting him before hand so it really didn't hurt him. But it didn't help him.

And then he leaves the idol at camp. He is the only new person on his tribe, he is a past winner and he is a challenge threat. And he leaves the idol at camp.

Really?

Really?

Worst Survivor winner ever. Seriously awful. The only thing he could have done to make himself look even worse would have been to try and hand the idol off to Debbie and then being voted out.

[Daisy]

Thank you JT for not playing your Idol. I won my Survivor Pool this week. teeheeheee. teeeheeeheee. 
boy is dumber than dirt. 

[Vyk]

2 minutes ago, Daisy said:

boy is dumber than dirt. 

Please.  That's an insult to dirt.

[Daisy]

Just now, Vyk said:

Please.  That's an insult to dirt.

(giggles)  This is true. 

Honestly, this tribal council was very much what i was talking about with JT vs. Sierra. What was the glitch? why were you so gungho pushing her out? over sugar? whatevers. 

[laurakaye]

Somewhere, James and Eric watched this episode together and then toasted each other to no longer being called the dumbest Survivor ever.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

bwwwaahahahahahah

Worst winner ever. Seriously. I think Fabio can play the game better then JT.

JT implodes every time he plays the game unless he has someone to hold his hand and take him to the finals. I know he has charm and can play a good social game but we did not see that this season. He was so unhinged my Michaela. What the hell was that about?

He had some good moves, the swim back to get the plyers and then searching for the idol. He found the idol quickly and covered his track. Good for him.

But he botches tribal last week. His behavior cost him an ally and put an even larger target on his back. He went to Brad when he had nothing to negotiate with. Why would Brad vote out Sandra? Sandra is not going to help her tribe win immunities and is not going to win individual immunities. In Brad's mind, Sandra is a non-threat. Malcom can help his tribe win challenges and can win individual immunity. So JT tells Brad that they are voting for Sierra and tries to get Brad to vote for Sandra but cannot negotiate to get what he wants.

JT had a target on his back in his new tribe so I don't think it totally sunk his game but it was still stupid. You don't offer that up until you know that they will target the person you want to go is the target. Whatever, Sandra was targeting him before hand so it really didn't hurt him. But it didn't help him.

And then he leaves the idol at camp. He is the only new person on his tribe, he is a past winner and he is a challenge threat. And he leaves the idol at camp.

Really?

Really?

Worst Survivor winner ever. Seriously awful. The only thing he could have done to make himself look even worse would have been to try and hand the idol off to Debbie and then being voted out.

I can't understand why anyone would ever leave an idol at camp.  Even if you feel 100% secure, why not bring it just in case?  What if it suddenly becomes obvious the tribe is targeting you?  Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  

Edited March 30, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[laurakaye]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can't understand why anyone would ever lead an idol at camp.  Even if you feel 100% secure, why not bring it just in case?  What if it suddenly becomes obvious the tribe is targeting you?  Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  

Or you get the sense that they are targeting your only ally and you need to hand it off?  

But again, he got played by Sandra the Jedi Warrior Dragon-Slaying Queen, so clearly she interfered with his brainwaves and hypnotized him.

[Daisy]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can't understand why anyone would ever lead an idol at camp.  Even if you feel 100% secure, why not bring it just in case?  What if it suddenly becomes obvious the tribe is targeting you?  Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  

right? how do you do that?  like why even bother looking for it. 
(though this makes me believe Sandra was soothing his ass all day). 

 

19 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Somewhere, James and Eric watched this episode together and then toasted each other to no longer being called the dumbest Survivor ever.

lolololol. JT crowned himself big time. 

[Hera]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

Somewhere, James and Eric watched this episode together and then toasted each other to no longer being called the dumbest Survivor ever.

I maintain that Tyson deliberately screwing up the split vote in Heroes vs. Villains is still the dumbest move ever made—and he also won (though on a later season). This episode confirmed my suspicion that JT didn't think through his telling Brad who the target was last week. I am also baffled at his decision not to have his idol with him at Tribal Council. I think Sandra and Varner must have had him convinced they were voting Michaela—certainly, the answers they gave at Tribal Council seemed to suggest they were. My guess is that they were considering the possibility that he might have a hidden immunity idol and were trying (successfully) to keep him from playing it.

[kikaha]

JT's first mistake after the IC was talking, over and over, badmouthing Michaela.  He should have kept his mouth shut and let the others do the talking.  If had done that, he could booted anyone he wished that night.  I guess he wanted to keep the idol for later.  What a bad decision. 

In the running for dumbest move ever: the entire men's tribe of One World, who won the IC and then unanimously agreed to go to tribal that night anyway. 

[LadyChatts]

I don't even think James's send off with two idols in his pocket was such a dumb move in hindsight.  The only good thing I can really say about idols is that there is a gamble playing them.  Sometimes it changes the game drastically, other times it only changes it for the one vote, and then sometimes it doesn't change anything.  James had every reason to think he was comfortable in China.  In JT's case, you are outnumbered drastically, you are responsible for your only ally getting voted off (even if that wasn't your intent), you find the one thing that can keep you safe-and then suddenly, everyone is on board with saving you and voting the person you want off without argument?  Yeah, that's a good time to be suspicious and say to yourself 'make sure I grab my idol tonight'.

JT could have made himself a legend if he had played the idol and sent Michaela home, especially as she was drinking the tea like a badass.  Of course, JT kind of has become a legend, though not for the reasons he probably wants to. 

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

In the running for dumbest move ever: the entire men's tribe of One World, who won the IC and then unanimously agreed to go to tribal that night anyway. 

Oh God, I had blocked that stupidity from my mind. Yes, that trumps JT's bonehead moves. 

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The only thing he could have done to make himself look even worse would have been to try and hand the idol off to Debbie and then being voted out.

I wish that would've happened!

As far as worse move ever, I am with @Hera in still thinking Tyson's HvV move might have been worse than this one. This might be number 2 though. And it's certainly the worst move JT has made and he has made some real bad ones lol.

Edited March 30, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[LadyChatts]

An interview with JT.  Even if he had the idol he might not have played it.  Also, he's willing to come back again.  

Quote

On if he would have played it had he brought it:
“I’m not sure I would have. I’d like to say, yeah, I would have. I felt bad, but I just couldn’t make myself understand how it made sense to keep someone that really couldn’t help you at the merge and had no relationships. At this point in the game I had actually slept at camp with every person there except Hali and Troyzan, so I had more contacts in the game than anyone else. I thought that was more leverage than I needed to secure myself to the merge. My way of thinking was, the only way these guys have a chance was with me. ‘Cause everyone else in the game were my former alliances except Troyzan and Hali. So I felt like I was in a good position. But you’re never safe in Survivor.”

I think he's missing the point that those people may be his alliance, but it doesn't mean they would be willing to take Sandra, Varner, and Aubry under their wing.  Michaela and Zeke being kind of rogue with no contacts isn't exactly a bad thing.  

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/30/survivor-game-changers-jt-ew-morning-live-podcast/

Edited March 30, 2017 by LadyChatts

[azshadowwalker]

19 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Why do I have to?  He completely blew it today.  I'm sort of glad he and Ciera are gone so I don't have to do all the talking talking talking.

Ah, @KimberStormer, if I can continue loving Rupert in this environment, you can go right on loving JT and Ciera. I might think you are crazy in that regard, but it encourages me, nonetheless. ;)

[SVNBob]

9 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

JT could have made himself a legend if he had played the idol and sent Michaela home, especially as she was drinking the tea like a badass.

I doubt she would have pulled out the cup and thermos if he'd pulled out the idol.

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, SVNBob said:

I doubt she would have pulled out the cup and thermos if he'd pulled out the idol.

Of course not.  Michaela knew the votes against J.T. were locked in.  She just had to see if he pulled out his idol.  Once he didn't (because, again, he left it back at camp), she was golden.

[Special K]

19 hours ago, kikaha said:

In the running for dumbest move ever: the entire men's tribe of One World, who won the IC and then unanimously agreed to go to tribal that night anyway. 

Hoo boy.  I forgot about that one!  Definitely in a class by itself.

[Tryangle]

16 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

An interview with JT. ...  Also, he's willing to come back again.  

 

Hope not, for his sake. At this rate I don't think he's got the skills to outlast Francesca in a returnees season.

[azshadowwalker]

40 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

Hope not, for his sake. At this rate I don't think he's got the skills to outlast Francesca in a returnees season.

Well, if they bring Phil back, maybe. 

[ProfCrash]

http://robhasawebsite.com/shows/survivor/

Candice and John Cody were on Rob Has a Podcast discussing this episode. Candice has nothing nice to say about JT. She describes him as arrogant and having difficulty working with or being around strong women. She describes his treatment of her as bad enough that she almost did not play again after Hero's vs Villain's.

[omophagia]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

http://robhasawebsite.com/shows/survivor/

Candice and John Cody were on Rob Has a Podcast discussing this episode. Candice has nothing nice to say about JT. She describes him as arrogant and having difficulty working with or being around strong women. She describes his treatment of her as bad enough that she almost did not play again after Hero's vs Villain's.

I'm no fan of Candice's-- I found her ungodly smug during Cook Islands, was baffled that she was brought back at all for Heroes Vs Villians let alone as a would-be hero, and was even more stumped that she was invited back a third time-- but I thought her remarks about JT were pretty telling.

Like I said in another thread, I'll still defend his Tocantins win as one of the show's overall best, and I can see kimberstormer's point about the risk-reward calculus of what he did in Heroes Vs Villains. But there's no defending his gameplay this time out: just spectacularly dumb with undercurrents of some nasty prejudices. And kudos to Sandra, Michaela, and Jeff for setting him up as masterfully as they did.

[ProfCrash]

We saw hints and heard from people that JT was not loved by many folks during Hero's vs Villain's and it sounds like his treatment of women is a part of it.

JT has said in interviews that he really wants/needs someone who he trusts to play with. Someone like Stephen. JT has not said it but I suspect that he needs a strong strategist to tame his desire to make the "big move". There is no way that Stephen lets JT give Russell the idol or go to tribal without the idol. JT earned his win in Tocantins. He made a great ally and managed to dump all the crap that happened on Stephen. He charmed folks and did his thing. But I don't think he wins that season if he does not team up with Stephen because JT is someone who plays too close to his emotions and needs someone to force him to be strategic.

[Vyk]

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Candice has nothing nice to say about JT. She describes him as arrogant and having difficulty working with or being around strong women. She describes his treatment of her as bad enough that she almost did not play again after Hero's vs Villain's.

 

4 hours ago, omophagia said:

I'm no fan of Candice's-- I found her ungodly smug during Cook Islands, was baffled that she was brought back at all for Heroes Vs Villians let alone as a would-be hero, and was even more stumped that she was invited back a third time-- but I thought her remarks about JT were pretty telling.

Like I said in another thread, I'll still defend his Tocantins win as one of the show's overall best, and I can see kimberstormer's point about the risk-reward calculus of what he did in Heroes Vs Villains. But there's no defending his gameplay this time out: just spectacularly dumb with undercurrents of some nasty prejudices. And kudos to Sandra, Michaela, and Jeff for setting him up as masterfully as they did.

 

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

We saw hints and heard from people that JT was not loved by many folks during Hero's vs Villain's and it sounds like his treatment of women is a part of it.

Yeah, that's part and parcel with what I brought up a few days ago.  J.T. was so unbearably chauvinistic and even borderline misogynistic with the Hero women.  He made camp life hell for them, demanding them to do things that women would be expected to do.  And even worse, he got Rupert roped into acting that way toward them, too.  That, combined with all of the paranoia and insecurity among the tribe that was caused entirely by his alliance-jumping and double-dealing, just drained Candice of any enthusiasm she'd had for being back and playing the game again.  And not just Candice.  Amanda felt the same way.  She just wanted to be away from him so badly.  Even though he was a man, Colby was apparently so disgusted by him that it was a large part of why he, Amanda, and Candice cemented an alliance to get rid of him sooner rather than later.  And when the merge hit, he turned off the Villain women (Parvati, Danielle, Jerri, and Sandra) in just a few short hours after the tribes combined.  Now, that was something.

ETA: That behavior started after he'd gotten Cirie and then Tom sent packing, most likely, because I think both of them would've shut that shit down if they had been there.  Without them around, thanks to him, J.T. probably felt invincible and untouchable enough to show his true colors to the rest of the tribe.

There's a reason J.T. hasn't been in contact with many former castmates from his two prior seasons (or even ones he wasn't on).  That is it.  He's not necessarily seen as "evil incarnate" among the Survivor community, but he's not a favorite, either.  At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Stephen were the only one still in constant contact with him.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Vyk

[LadyChatts]

Reading JT's interviews, his whole thing is focused on being a strong player and having connections on the other tribe, as being puzzled as to why he was voted out.  Michaela can certainly hold her own in challenges.  He never got to see that, but she can compete with the best of them.  Old school Survivor, the strong typically survived (at least until the merge), and being a camp provider kept you around.  But he seems to really fancy himself as this big, strong, competitive male that is the only person that's going to keep NuNuku afloat and help them when the merge or another swap happens.  Because I'm sure Sandra/Varner/Aubry would be fine being on the bottom of his alliance of himself/Ozzy/Tai/Brad/Sierra/Debbie.  He just doesn't seem to get it.  It's why I hope he doesn't come back, but at least he makes for good TV.  Painful at times, but comical in the same sense.  You'll just wonder what blunder he'll pull next!

[Vyk]

Aye-aye-aye.  I'm even happier that J.T.'s gone now.  The ego is big and overblown on this dude.

[Hera]

20 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

http://robhasawebsite.com/shows/survivor/

Candice and John Cody were on Rob Has a Podcast discussing this episode. Candice has nothing nice to say about JT. She describes him as arrogant and having difficulty working with or being around strong women. She describes his treatment of her as bad enough that she almost did not play again after Hero's vs Villain's.

I don't love Candice as a player (she's pretty much always cannon fodder on any season she's on) and I barely remember her husband, but that was a really entertaining interview. I started by skipping to where she talked about JT, which was pretty early on, and ended up listening to the whole thing. I think I now understand why the producers liked her enough to bring her back twice, even though she's never stood out (to me anyway) during the game. I don't know what it is about her—maybe the fact that she doesn't really try to make excuses for her game, or try to introduce an alternative narrative where she's a secret genius and everyone else screwed up—but Candice comes across as a reliable source and I'm inclined to take her at her word that JT has a problem with women.

[Oholibamah]

On March 29, 2017 at 9:01 PM, Vyk said:

I really don't see how you can justify or defend him now, @KimberStormer.  There really is no defending that arrogance or stupidity.

First, he takes himself out with his own idol fourteen seasons ago.  Now he goes out with his own idol in his pocket.  ETA: Oh!  And not even in his pocket!  He didn't even bring it with him!  Ha!

I never liked J.T. in Tocantins, honestly.  But he went and validated and vindicated my utter distaste for him every time he was on after that.  I hate this loser so damn much and hope he never returns again.

For me the arrogance is in deeming someone else's opinion unjustifiable. 

Sandra sold the Michaela boot like a boss. Had JT played his idol and Michaela got the boot, I'm sure I'd be seeing a chorus line of "that idiot wasted his idol!" instead. 

I don't think he played well this season, but he made high-risk high-reward moves based on the information he had and they didn't pan out. I frankly don't get the pearl-clutching about it. 

[MrsR]

v

30 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

I frankly don't get the pearl-clutching about it. 

I don't see pearl clutching, but I do see a lot of knee slapping!  

Adios J.T.!!

[kikaha]

25 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

I don't think he played well this season, but he made high-risk high-reward moves based on the information he had and they didn't pan out.

One key question is, were they really high-reward moves?  I'm not so sure.  Suppose he pulls off the Michaela boot, and she no longer is in the game.  Did JT think she was a threat to win the season?  Or make key alliances that shape the rest of the game?  Hard for me to imagine, given how JT saw/experienced her (and how most of their tribe saw/experienced her). 

I think JT made emotional decisions, not strategic ones.  his annoyance, or anger, let him somehow forget all about Sandra, who was his #1 target just a few days earlier.  The idol meant he could have booted Sandra with near 100% certainty.   

But I wonder why booting Sandra was such a high priority. They were barely one-fourth into a season where she had the biggest target of all on her back.  All sorts of time to vote her out.  Why take such huge chances?  

They are still in the real early stages of the game.  You can't win the season then, but you sure can lose it.  JT lost it, not only for himself, but for the guy he considered his #1 ally.  I think he did so by trying moves that were vastly more risky than any rewards they may have given him.   "Big-move-itis" destroyed him, just as it did in HvV.  

[LadyChatts]

I just got through the HvsV ep where Tyson essentially voted himself off.  I still think Erik giving up immunity is dumber, or at least equal.  JT's non idol play this past week is close behind. 

Quote

But I wonder why booting Sandra was such a high priority. They were barely one-fourth into a season where she had the biggest target of all on her back.  All sorts of time to vote her out.  Why take such huge chances?

In one of the bonus clips this week, Ozzy talked about getting nervous because the bigger threats were getting picked off, and he was concerned he wouldn't have any shields to hide behind.  Which again goes back to Sandra, who no one wants to see win a 3rd time, and whose name has continually come up.  She'd be the person I'd want to hide behind for awhile.  I don't know if people out there think it's some kind of status they receive for voting her off (because, unless it's some epic blindside or blunder on Sandra's part, big whoop.  Her boot, if/when it comes, is going to be pretty anti climactic).  Same with voting off some of the other threats in the game.  Maybe everyone knows they aren't really game changers, but can be by targeting threats and keeping a lot of nobodies around.  Who knows.

As to your point about Michaela, JT himself said she had no allies and was useless in challenges (I disagree on that last part).  JT seemed to get mighty cocky after finding his idol.  So maybe he thought he held all the power, and decided to keep Sandra specifically because he knew she'd be a target down the road?  It's why I wish we got more of the tribe dynamics, and less idol hunting.  And while I prefer 3 tribes most of the time, I think it does take away from some of the dynamics we would otherwise see.  Michaela being JT's #1 target seemed to come out of nowhere.  

[KimberStormer]

JT's reward for booting Sandra would have been control of the tribe/his game until at least the merge.  He would make it to the merge after the death sentence of his being the sole OldNuku on an otherwise all OldMana tribe, with new allies to graft onto, or mix and match with, his old allies on OldNuku.  A good meat-shield brolliance with Malcolm, and the big threat of Sandra gone.  So control, safety, options for the future, and an FTC resume bullet to boot, handed to him where, had there been no two-tribe-vote twist, he was 100% certain to go home.  The risk of himself or Malcolm going was low.  The fact that it happened does not change that. 

On the other hand not playing his idol I would call a very high risk to reward ratio.  If he's right and doesn't play it, he has an idol, which is certainly something, but if he doesn't play it and he needs to, he goes home.  If he plays it and doesn't need to I feel like it's a no-harm no-foul with the new tribe, maybe they lose some trust but there wasn't much trust there anyway.  According to his exit interviews he was hoping that these OldManas, with their original tribe way down in numbers, would find it mutually beneficial to keep him for the merge, as he had connections with almost everyone in the game, so that he would again have options for the future.  But I think if they were going to be desperate enough to hitch their wagons to JT they would have been that desperate whether or not he betrayed some lack of trust in them by playing his idol.  Also, we've seen time and again that if you can get one idol, you have a big advantage in getting another idol.  His reward was possibly useful idol in the future vs certain safety right now and almost no other change; I think it was a huge mistake to not play the idol.

Ironically considering how everyone, everywhere is spouting the Hot Take that JT needed Stephen to win, I think JT was thinking too much like a Survivor Nerd this episode, according to his exit interviews.  In other words I think he was not playing emotionally enough -- the complete opposite of what I thought was the case during the episode.  He thought the OldManas would keep him because they need some allies on the other side, since they're down numbers.  Now as far as that goes it might be true -- I have no idea what the OldManas are planning/hoping for when the merge comes -- but I don't think it was relevant here.  I don't think Sandra particularly cares about abstract CONNECTION especially with someone she cannot trust and she seems herself to want control this time around.  And besides JT of all people should know that a strongly unified minority can certainly take apart a dysfunctional majority.  Not to mention it's a returning player season, so a lot of people know a lot of people out there.  (JT being apparently not a big Survivor Alumni Scene kind of guy, it might not have occurred to him.)  The OldManas didn't think they needed him as much as he thought they needed him, and he didn't bother to try to get them to want him, because he thought they needed him so bad -- classic Survivor Nerd.

Clearly JT must have seen that he couldn't organize an anti-Sandra coup (Varner and Michaela were too loyal) and fixed on another target, Michaela, because she had no connections (as a newbie and someone who was on a swap tribe with only one new member), and also because he thought her camp manner was a weakness he could exploit.  In general I agree that it's better to play people than idols, but this was a bad mistake, and he never realized it because of two things: Varner and Aubry really were annoyed by Michaela, apparently, and because Sandra played his emotions so beautifully.  I'm not sure the sugar thing turned the target on Michaela so much; rather, as he says in his interviews, it made him certain Sandra would vote with him.  Because he thought he was saying what she wanted to say.  That's a really powerful manipulation tactic: I'm not strong enough to do this thing, will you do it?  Ho ho, well of course I will, don't you worry about it, I've got it under control.  Give him the feeling of strength, like you're depending on him.  He'll never see it coming.  He won't even worry enough to play an idol.  Or even think for a minute whether it is even remotely possible that SANDRA of all people would need someone else to do the talking for her.

He should have put aside these things and focused on the immediate, the headstrong emotions that sent him out desperately searching for the idol in the first place.  If they'd had tribal that minute, he would have been fine.  Play the idol, take out whoever, live to see another day.  (Taking out Sandra now does not give the rewards it would have last episode, I hope that's clear enough?  But he could take out Sandra, sure, or whoever.)  Instead he had plenty of time, and Sandra gave him plenty of rope, to fix himself a quite elaborate noose.

Edited April 3, 2017 by KimberStormer

[ProfCrash]

I suspect that JT is participating in the time honored make something up that sounds better then it was.

If Michaela and Varner were too loyal to vote out Sandra, why would he expect that Sandra and Varner were so willing to vote for Michaela? Sandra has a rep for being one of the more loyal players in the game. JT should have been very well aware that Sandra was not going to be voting out Michaela. He played with her in Hero's vs Villain's and knows how loyal she was to Rupert and how hard she targeted Russell. He knows that she was willing to go after Russell because of the crap he did and that she was not aligned with him.

Yet he some how or another was willing to buy that Sandra was going to vote out Michaela, an ally, because of her behavior at camp?

He should have brought and played the idol because he knew he couldn't get the votes to take out Sandra. He should have known that Varner and Michaela were loyal to Sandra and that Sandra was loyal to Michaela. He should have played the idol knowing that there was no way in hell Sandra was voting out Michaela and cast his vote for Sandra. Any explanation that includes the idea that Sandra was going to turn on an ally is BS and anyone who has watched Sandra play and listen to Sandra in her interviews knows that. Anyone who has played with Sandra would tell you that she is not going to turn on an ally.  That is not how she plays.

So yeah, I think JT is tossing out alternative truths in his interviews because he made a bone head move and fell for an amazing acting job by Sandra. He was played and played hard. He can spin any type of BS story that he wants but lets be real, he played with Sandra and knew better. There is no excuse for his not bringing the idol and playing it.

If his goal was to take control of things by voting out Sandra he had the chance right then and there and he did not take it. Instead he was voted out.

He allowed his emotional response to Michaela, and from what I have read and heard in interviews just about any woman with a brain and back bone, override what he knew about Sandra.

[kikaha]

6 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

JT's reward for booting Sandra would have been control of the tribe/his game until at least the merge. 

Or at least till the next shuffle.  Fairly reasonable to expect such a thing, especially in a season of all-returning players. 

This is the point.  He tried to make big-seeming moves, that put himself and his allies at mortal risk, too early.  The payoff was not so great: he still had to negotiate the vast bulk of the season in front of him.  And the end result was to boot Malcolm, and generate vast mistrust of himself among the people who counted most.  Very poor conceptualized IMO, and even worse executed. 

You did not tell us JT's reward for booting Michaela. 

[KimberStormer]

5 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I suspect that JT is participating in the time honored make something up that sounds better then it was.

So yeah, I think JT is tossing out alternative truths in his interviews because he made a bone head move and fell for an amazing acting job by Sandra. He was played and played hard. He can spin any type of BS story that he wants

But that is his story, that he got played by Sandra because of terrible assumptions about what people were trying to do out there, that he didn't understand how Sandra plays and was completely wrong about her willingness to vote out an ally.  I don't see any alternative truths.  He flat out says if he had brought his idol he wouldn't have played it because he was so confident, because they convinced him that much.

4 hours ago, kikaha said:

Or at least till the next shuffle.  Fairly reasonable to expect such a thing, especially in a season of all-returning players. 

This is the point.  He tried to make big-seeming moves, that put himself and his allies at mortal risk, too early.  The payoff was not so great: he still had to negotiate the vast bulk of the season in front of him.  And the end result was to boot Malcolm, and generate vast mistrust of himself among the people who counted most.  Very poor conceptualized IMO, and even worse executed. 

You did not tell us JT's reward for booting Michaela. 

If there's another shuffle JT's position is better, not worse!  The OldManas are in the minority.  He would now have allies in all of OldNuku, plus Malcolm and Aubry.  Himself, Malcolm, Aubry, Brad, Debbie, Tai, Ozzy, Cirie, Andrea, Sierra, Zeke, and Sarah, VS Varner, Michaela, Hali, and Troyzan.  If they shuffled the very next tribal he was good; if there was another vote or two in between it would likely mean only less people who are not JT allies in the game, because Hali and Troyzan are completely outnumbered on their tribes and JT now has control on NuNuku.

The "vast bulk of the season" doesn't matter if you can't make it there.  At the time JT had no idol and was outnumbered 1 to 5 on his tribe.  The twist threw him a lifeline, which he could use to improve his future prospects while at the same time saving his short-term bacon.  The "terrible risk" was unlikely.  You have to make that move, in my opinion.  The only problem was Brad has apparently learned nothing from Jeremy's game and just wants to take out strong men ASAP.

His reward for booting Michaela, obviously, is not going home tonight, while keeping his idol.  Worth it?  Absolutely not.  He should never have risked his game on such a paltry reward; it was terribly foolish.  As I say, the negatives of playing his idol were almost nil.  To not play it was a baffling decision, only explained by being completely and totally played by Sandra (with a Varner assist).

[kikaha]

17 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

If there's another shuffle JT's position is better, not worse! 

All the more reason to not take crazy risks, on uncertain moves, that you have had ZERO time to work out with the people required to vote your way. 

Just keep his mouth shut and he and Malcolm are safe.  His tribe is strong.  He lives to fight another day, with his top ally.  Who knows, maybe one of them finds an idol? 

One of the more ill-advised moves I've seen on Survivor. 

[LadyChatts]

Quote

The "vast bulk of the season" doesn't matter if you can't make it there.  At the time JT had no idol and was outnumbered 1 to 5 on his tribe.  The twist threw him a lifeline, which he could use to improve his future prospects while at the same time saving his short-term bacon.  The "terrible risk" was unlikely.  You have to make that move, in my opinion.  The only problem was Brad has apparently learned nothing from Jeremy's game and just wants to take out strong men ASAP.

I'd argue that JT hasn't really learned from his last time, either.  There was no reason for him to make the moves he has so far, and it ended up costing him and Malcolm.  I think JT makes moves for the sake of making them, and doesn't stop to think about what might happen if it doesn't go right.  Perhaps his biggest blunder, though, was not playing his idol.  Outnumbered on a tribe that knows he betrayed them (whether he's willing to admit it or not), he finds the one thing that can save him in this game, but admits he might not have used it had he brought it with him.  He got outplayed.  Had he just kept his mouth shut to Brad, instead of trying to make a bold move, Malcolm would have survived, and there's a chance those two plus Aubry could have teamed up and tried to pull in Varner.  Reading his interviews, he seemed more set on strength and allies, and didn't understand why Sandra and Varner wouldn't want to tag along.  He's been out for Sandra since the tribe swap, why would she suddenly trust him, since he was quick to tell his other allies their plan at TC? 

Of course, the best thing Sandra and crew could have done at that ill fated TC was flip their vote away from Sierra and vote someone else. 

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

But that is his story, that he got played by Sandra because of terrible assumptions about what people were trying to do out there, that he didn't understand how Sandra plays and was completely wrong about her willingness to vote out an ally.  I don't see any alternative truths.  He flat out says if he had brought his idol he wouldn't have played it because he was so confident, because they convinced him that much.

He played with Sandra before. He should have known that she was not going to vote for her ally, Michaella. When has Sandra ever voted to keep the tribe strong over protecting an ally? Never. That is not her game. She has never played that way. She has never in an interview said that she would do that. She has always harped on loyalty. People argue that she was willing to vote out Russell in Hero's vs Villains because she did not like him and that she would have lost if the Hero's had listened to her. She probably knew that and she didn't care. Voting out Russell because of his antics and the fact that he voted out her allies was more important to her.

Which is why it makes no sense for JT to think that Sandra was going to vote for Michaella. None whatsoever. He never should have fallen for that BS because he has played with Sandra and he should know her game. Stephen would have known that she was bullshitting. Any of the strategists playing should have known she was bullshitting.

JT's plan the week before was to get rid of Sandra. Plain and simple. His plan backfired and Malcolm went home. JT had an opportunity to get rid of Sandra all on his own. He did not even need Aubrey's vote, although that would have made it easier for him. He ignores the ridiculous smoke screen that Sandra is throwing up and keeps his eye on the prize. Hell, he makes it know that he is targeting Sandra. Sandra and her allies vote for JT. JT plays the idol and Sandra goes home. Instead, he let his petty dislike of Michaella cloud his judgement. He believes that one of the people most known for her loyalty to her allies is going to vote out an ally over work ethic at camp, attitude in challenges, and some sugar? Really?

Sandra is amazing because she got him to believe that but it should not have happened. He fell for it because he let his emotional response to Michaella blind him and changed his own game. He can try and sell it how ever he wants but that was some piss poor game play there.

The interviews I heard included statements by him that he needs at least one person that he trusts out there and that he has not found that person in the last two seasons. What he needs is a sounding board who can whap him over the head and tell him when he is being stupid. There is no way Stephen allows him to go to tribal believing he was safe. Essentially, he knows that he makes crap decisions and he needs someone to stop him.

[Vyk]

42 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

The interviews I heard included statements by him that he needs at least one person that he trusts out there and that he has not found that person in the last two seasons. What he needs is a sounding board who can whap him over the head and tell him when he is being stupid. There is no way Stephen allows him to go to tribal believing he was safe. Essentially, he knows that he makes crap decisions and he needs someone to stop him.

Really?  I thought he'd found that person in Rupert in Heroes vs. Villains.  And I think Malcolm could've been that person this season if not for his own mistake.

[KimberStormer]

52 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Which is why it makes no sense for JT to think that Sandra was going to vote for Michaella. None whatsoever. He never should have fallen for that BS because he has played with Sandra and he should know her game.

Sandra is amazing because she got him to believe that but it should not have happened. He fell for it because he let his emotional response to Michaella blind him and changed his own game. He can try and sell it how ever he wants but that was some piss poor game play there.

I completely agree, except that I don't know what you're talking about with this "he can try to sell it" stuff.  He fell for it, he should have known better, Sandra got the best of him and got him to believe things that were plainly not true.  But I don't know where he has said any different.  He had a theory, plausible to him, about how they would think and vote, but his theory was unfounded and wrong.  He started from a bad foundation and Sandra's brilliant play kept him going in the wrong direction; he was completely wrong and Sandra totally got the better of him.  But that is what he has said in the interviews, so...?

I think pretty much any leader-type needs a strong partner in the game (this is the classic Fox/Bear duo.)  Kim had Chelsea, Parvati had Amanda (and later Danielle), Denise had Malcolm, Tom had Ian, Cirie had Aras, Yul had Becky, Aubry had Joe, etc etc going all the way back to Richard and Rudy.  Not the only way to win (the lone wolf often wins, and has often beaten just this kind of duo, in fact), but I think the only way to succeed as a leader.

Edited April 3, 2017 by KimberStormer

[simplyme]

8 hours ago, Vyk said:

Really?  I thought he'd found that person in Rupert in Heroes vs. Villains.  And I think Malcolm could've been that person this season if not for his own mistake.

If you're counting on Rupert to be the smart one, you might be in trouble.

[SVNBob]

8 hours ago, Vyk said:

Really?  I thought he'd found that person in Rupert in Heroes vs. Villains.

33 minutes ago, simplyme said:

If you're counting on Rupert to be the smart one, you might be in trouble.

Rupert was the person that voiced the logical but incorrect theory about the female alliance in HvV that eventually led to JT's Idol Pass play, (which we've probably already argued enough again.)  But as I recall, JT told Rupert and the rest of the Heroes tribe what the plan was, and none of them tried to talk him out of it.  I think JT even talked over the wording of the note (that eventually got re-read aloud daily post-merge) with Rupert specifically.

 

Yeah, it does seem like JT needs someone to be his spaz-wrangler.  Fishbach was a great one.  Malcolm might have been a good one, after his practice session with Eddie and Reynold.  But Rupert seems to need his own wrangler, like Sandra or Jenna Lewis, so him in that role did not bode well for JT.

[Vyk]

3 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Rupert was the person that voiced the logical but incorrect theory about the female alliance in HvV that eventually led to JT's Idol Pass play, (which we've probably already argued enough again.)  But as I recall, JT told Rupert and the rest of the Heroes tribe what the plan was, and none of them tried to talk him out of it.  I think JT even talked over the wording of the note (that eventually got re-read aloud daily post-merge) with Rupert specifically.

True, but on the flip side, Rupert was also the one who started realizing that they couldn't just blindly trust Russell, something J.T. and his massive ego all-too-desperately wanted to do, regardless.