S05.E03: Surprise

[FormerMod-a1]

Quote

Returning from London for a visit, Toby and Lily reveal their plans to get married in the Kennish backyard. But a fight before the wedding may tear them apart before they can say “I do.” Regina must decide whether to reveal her relationship with Luca to the family. When she least expects it, Bay runs into Tank again.

[KaveDweller]

So the parents didn't know about Bay being sick, that actually explains a lot.

I like Travis, but it was really low of him to tell Mary Beth she was a terrible person. I actually really like the idea of Bay and Mary Beth trying to figure out how to be friends when they know their romantic choices have hurt the other. It's different than what you normally see with female friendships on TV.  But Bay going to see Emmet at the end.....sigh.  I don't know if it is sabotage or what.

Edited February 15, 2017 by KaveDweller

[Jintian]

I think it makes sense for Travis's character -- he's always going in hard with his opinions, and of course he'd want to defend Bay, and also he has strong personal reasons for siding against a person he believes is a sexual abuser or who would condone sexual abuse. And I have to say I think it's pretty low of Mary Beth to date a person who -- regardless of whether she herself believes it was rape -- hurt her friend like that, and was/is at the center of so much pain for her friend. To even try to equate their dating relationships is a big reach. Bay's line about, "I hope you get married and stay together forever, because that's the only way this would be worth it," was excellent.

And a big whatever to this show trying to garner sympathy for Mary Beth because her mother is ill. Just because a person is experiencing trouble doesn't give them an excuse to do crappy things to people they supposedly care about. See, e.g., Daphne lashing out after Angelo's death, Emmett's treatment of Bay last season, etc.

Speaking of which, why am I not surprised that Bay's life threatening illness is about Daphne's guilt and PTSD now? So typical.

Between consoling Mary Beth, Daphne and now Emmett, it's also just typical Bay. She needs to stop taking on other people's problems to the detriment of her own happiness. She does it over and over again with different friends, putting herself out there to help them through their issues, and it always creates issues for herself. Try looking out for number one, Bay!

[schroob]

Toby....Ugh.

I'm both surprised John was so cool about Regina and Luca, and a wee bit [but not much] surprised Kathryn was less cool (didn't she come close to a fling with the younger lawyer back in season one?).

Bay...Ugh! I hate when shows try to make teen romances epic. Move on from Emmett already.

[Everleigh]

Making Bay’s near death experience all about Daphne is so Switched at Birth that it actually made me laugh. Is Japanese Encephalitis really that serious? Because a small part of me was kind of rolling my eyes at Daphne having PTSD over her sister getting what I assumed was basically a bad case of the flu, but I admit I don’t know much about the illness. At least we learned that the parents didn’t know Bay was sick and didn’t just leave her to almost die in a foreign country. 

What’s the official girl code ruling on dating your friend’s rapist? Mary Beth was way out of line for comparing Bay dating Travis to her dating Tank. If only the show allowed Bay’s anger to last for more than a few minutes before she was forced to relinquish her crown of misfortune to Mary Beth. 

I always liked Mary Beth and it’s nice to see the girls interact with friends and not just  their male love interests, but for Bay’s sake, I hope she and Mary Beth decide to keep their distance and just let the friendship fizzle out. People drift and friendships fall apart and that’s ok, sometimes it’s even healthier than the alternative. And in this case, I don’t think it would be healthy for Bay to remain friends with Mary Beth while she’s dating Tank, but knowing Bay, she’ll be planning double dates for her, Travis, Mary Beth, and Tank next week because she’s a dummy and feels guilty that her friend’s mom got sick while she was attempting to make a life for herself. 

And was Tank in Mary Beth’s dorm room? I would think a former student expelled for committing sexual assault in the dorms, would be banned from campus. Also pretty ballsy of him to waltz into the Kennish backyard in order to make Bay feel guilty for having the audacity to feel hurt by the hurtful thing her friend did. 

Of course Bay is now lying to Travis because Emmett “needs” her and she always has to stupidly sacrifice her own happiness and well-being for those around her, because in her mind, other people’s problems are always more important than her own. It’s ironic that this character who was so incredibly entitled and self-absorbed when we first met her, now has such a hard time recognizing and prioritizing her own needs. She really needs to stop trying to fix other people’s problems and focus on herself. Maybe she could ask Daphne for some pointers on how to be a little bit more selfish. 

Lily and Toby’s problems seemed way too serious to be resolved with a 2 minute conversation and a kiss, but whatever. Good luck to them. 

Luca comes across as kind of condescending to me, which makes his thing with Regina that much weirder because she's literally old enough to be his mom. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Everleigh

[Spencer Hastings]

Well this was a mess. 

Daphne's PTSD storyline is going to be another pathetic attempt to "educate" us about something.  Just stop.  I also noticed that she called her mom "Regina" to John tonight. Is that something we've always seen or a mistake?

Unpopular Opinion but I thought that Bay and Travis were completely out of line tonight.  Yes, Bay has the right to be upset.  She has the right to tell Mary Beth how she feels.  But she has no right to tell Mary Beth to break up with Tank and Travis had no right to call her a terrible person.  While the excuse about her mother was totally lame, Mary Beth is allowed to come to her own conclusion about a person and who she wants to date.  It's completely contrived (like the rest of this show), but I can understand her reason for bonding with Tank. She made a good point when she reminded Bay that she wasn't even sure if she'd said yes or no that night.  I won't get into my thoughts on that storyline because I've talked about it to death, but I felt for Mary Beth. 

[Primetimer]

No, you're the one tearing up as Toby and Lily head to the altar.

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[Jax7917]

i actually am starting to really hate this show. I don't know who the writers are or what their experiences are with certain issues, but the way bay is flipping out about mary beth dating him when she herself admitted that she doesn't know what happened that night and that he is a good person and the guy already got kicked out of school for something that obviously wasn't intentional rape, I think he's had enough happen to him. Bay was very out of line and I wish someone on the show would tell her that.

And then the lil wayne/ race story line is even worse than that. The guy showed up to a HALLOWEEN party dressed as a rapper he likes the same way daphne dressed up as katy perry yet why isn't that a big deal? How is this any sort of issue? This show makes me mad.

[waving feather]

Wow, this show is a mess. Something is wrong when Kathryn and John are the only sane ones left.

Toby and his wife are a train wreck. They have major issues and the last thing they should be doing is getting married, especially with his addiction to gambling. I hated that he called her Momzilla. Shut it, dude. She's doing all of that because you are not helping her or proving that you can take on the responsibility. Toby is as immature as ever. 

I get Bay is shocked and uneasy that Mary Beth is dating Tank. I get it, but if that makes her uncomfortable, just stop being friends with Mary Beth. If that's your deal breaker, just break it. There's no point arguing with people who to date or calling them a terrible person like Travis did. 

And Bay never learns, lying to Travis and going back to the Emmett disaster. I don't feel sorry for Bay because she puts herself into all these kind of situations that can only end badly. I won't call Daphne "selfish" for looking out for herself at times. That's self preservation and being smart. What Bay is doing is not "selfless" but simply put, stupid. 

[Racj82]

Daphne wasn't being selfish. But, the show couldn't help making Bay's illness all about her which bugs. At, least it's a real life thing and not about who she's dating at least.

I'm always going to feel sorry for Tank. Not justifying what happened that night at all. The issue was so grey that I can't completely condemn either party. But, don't drink like that and have sex. Consent is not a cut and dry situation when you are drunk. But, tank fucked up. He has also paid all the consequences of that and then some. I'm glad at least part of his life is giving him some semblance of happiness.

And no he didn't go to Bay's house to guilt trip her. He just wanted Bay to know everything. Everyone came crashing down on Mary Beth from a very one sided point of view. Which Bay is completely justified. But, hey, they can't be friends anymore. Mary Beth can still date who she wants.

I hate gambling plot lines so much. Watching people basically throw money away just bugs the shit out of me. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Racj82

[CleoCaesar]

Ugh this show is just...bad. Thank god it's on its deathbed.

Toby is as big a mess as he was 5 years ago. I give that little marriage experiment a few years, tops. He is a child, and Lily is not exactly a pleasant person. I know we're supposed to be happy that they didn't abort Carlton (that name...) and coo over how cute he is and what plucky parents they are, but no, sorry. To the writers' credit, I'm glad they did have Lily voice the opinion that she did sign on for a lifetime with a child with disabilities both physical and cognitive and that he may never "get" it.

Dear writers: stop being the Tank horse. It's dead. He's a likeable actor, but enough is enough.

The fact that they are still calling him a "rapist" is just disgusting. Combined with the stupid "cultural appropriation" storyline, this show is basically a parody of Tumblr-esque leftist politics and social movements. And to think, this was once a smart, unique show.

Edited February 15, 2017 by CleoCaesar

[joanne3482]

13 hours ago, Everleigh said:

Making Bay’s near death experience all about Daphne is so Switched at Birth that it actually made me laugh. Is Japanese Encephalitis really that serious? Because a small part of me was kind of rolling my eyes at Daphne having PTSD over her sister getting what I assumed was basically a bad case of the flu, but I admit I don’t know much about the illness. At least we learned that the parents didn’t know Bay was sick and didn’t just leave her to almost die in a foreign country. 

So I did look this up because I had no idea about Japanese Encephalitis, it's a little stronger than a bad case of the flu, but for a healthy adult she wouldn't have died from it.  There may have been seizures or weakness on one side or the other so I can see how it would seem scary. But PTSD level scary? No. I have a hard time buying that.  

[waving feather]

14 minutes ago, joanne3482 said:

So I did look this up because I had no idea about Japanese Encephalitis, it's a little stronger than a bad case of the flu, but for a healthy adult she wouldn't have died from it.  There may have been seizures or weakness on one side or the other so I can see how it would seem scary. But PTSD level scary? No. I have a hard time buying that.  

I understood why Daphne was freaked out. It's not the illness by itself but because they were all alone on a hiking trail in a rural area in foreign land without speaking the language or having any one she knew there. And no close-by hospital! And Bay was close to unconscious when she brought her in. That's just a horrible scenario to me. 

[tennisgurl]

So Bay has a dangerous, possibly terminal illness, and almost dies in the remote parts of a foreign country, and the angsty storyline goes to...Daphne of course! Typical. I'm not annoyed with Daphne about this, as it really was probably very traumatic for her, watching her sister get sicker and sicker in the woods in a place where she hardly speaks the language, it must have been really scary, and I can see how she felt guilty about hiking even when Bay felt sick, but I am annoyed with the writers, and how they can make literally everyone ever about Daphne. And comparing her PTSD to soldiers who saw combat? That's a stretch, show.

How have we gotten to the point where Katheryn and John have become the most likable characters on the show? Their scenes and plots actually seem like things normal people would deal with, not melodramatic bullshit and Tumblr pandering. Speaking of...

I swear, how many social justice related issues is this show going to deal with? We just had to sit through the boring and pointless Cultural Appropriation episode, now we are back to our Very Special Episodes on rape, and it looks like we are heading back to racial drama next week! Its not that these are bad thing to talk about, but it doesn't seem natural to the story, it just seems like a checklist of "hot topic" issues the show wants to lecture us all on. Its the last season guys! Can we focus on the characters, and not on whatever you read in the Huffington Post this week?

So the Tank story returns, in all its confusing glory. I really didn't like how that story went down, so this is NOT something I wanted to revisit, especially this way. I really just have to say, I hated so much about the Bay and Tank rape drama. It was an interesting idea (focusing on the he said she said nature of sexual assault, and being ambiguous about what really happened) that did not end up getting executed well at all. I still get pissed when I think about how the school and everyone else reacted to Bay. She went through something confusing at best, traumatic at worst, and everyone seemed to be only interested in telling her how she SHOULD feel instead of listening to how she DID feel. The scenes with the moms were downright creepy to me, it felt like she was being gaslighted. And the school did literally everything wrong in how they handled it. I work in higher education, and I have heard MANY talks and discussions about how to deal with on campus sexual assault, and, at every school I've been too, its been focused on giving the survivors their power back as much as possible. If the survivor says they don't want the investigation to go any father, it wont. The school wont just tell them to fuck off if they say they want it dropped. All anyone would get from that storyline is "Guys, don't ever go to parties or have sex with a woman, because people might convince her you raped her! And girls, if you think or know you were assaulted, for the love of God, TELL NO ONE! It will ruin your life and everyone will treat you like shit and use you for their own agenda!" It doesn't help that Bay is still really inconsistent when it comes to Tank. Just in this episode, she seemed to swing from "he's a rapist!" to "he's a great guy" scene by scene. I just want this to be over!

[KaveDweller]

21 hours ago, Jintian said:

I think it makes sense for Travis's character -- he's always going in hard with his opinions, and of course he'd want to defend Bay, and also he has strong personal reasons for siding against a person he believes is a sexual abuser or who would condone sexual abuse. And I have to say I think it's pretty low of Mary Beth to date a person who -- regardless of whether she herself believes it was rape -- hurt her friend like that, and was/is at the center of so much pain for her friend. To even try to equate their dating relationships is a big reach. Bay's line about, "I hope you get married and stay together forever, because that's the only way this would be worth it," was excellent.

On one hand I can see it being low of Mary Beth to date a person who hurt Bay, but on the other hand, Tank really isn't a bad guy (despite what happened) and he was apparently there for her when no one else was. People have a right to chose  romantic partners who work for them.

It's not out of character for Travis to be angry, and he has a right to express that, but I think what he said was over the line.

17 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

Daphne's PTSD storyline is going to be another pathetic attempt to "educate" us about something.  Just stop.  I also noticed that she called her mom "Regina" to John tonight. Is that something we've always seen or a mistake?

I noticed the Regina thing too, I think it was a mistake. It is really weird the actress wouldn't catch that.

[Everleigh]

21 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

Unpopular Opinion but I thought that Bay and Travis were completely out of line tonight.  Yes, Bay has the right to be upset.  She has the right to tell Mary Beth how she feels.  But she has no right to tell Mary Beth to break up with Tank and Travis had no right to call her a terrible person.  While the excuse about her mother was totally lame, Mary Beth is allowed to come to her own conclusion about a person and who she wants to date.  It's completely contrived (like the rest of this show), but I can understand her reason for bonding with Tank. She made a good point when she reminded Bay that she wasn't even sure if she'd said yes or no that night.  I won't get into my thoughts on that storyline because I've talked about it to death, but I felt for Mary Beth. 

Bay didn’t just demand Mary Beth break up with Tank out of the blue. MB asked what she could do to fix their friendship and Bay’s answer was to break up with Tank, which I get why she'd say that because obviously they can’t be friends if Mary Beth is dating someone who causes Bay such distress. Still Bay seemed to realize she was being a bit irrational in her reaction because when she got home she told Travis they can’t dictate who MB dates, so I think it just took a few minutes for her understandable shock and outrage to wear off and her self-awareness to return. I think Mary Beth's within her right to date Tank if that's what she wants to do, but Bay and Travis are within their right to feel how they feel about her doing so. I also thought MB's reaction to Travis calling her a terrible person was a bit over-dramatic. It seemed like she wanted everyone to be okay with her decision while knowing they wouldn't be, but I think all parties involved just need to step back and let the other feel what they feel without expectation and do their own thing. 

8 hours ago, joanne3482 said:

So I did look this up because I had no idea about Japanese Encephalitis, it's a little stronger than a bad case of the flu, but for a healthy adult she wouldn't have died from it.  There may have been seizures or weakness on one side or the other so I can see how it would seem scary. But PTSD level scary? No. I have a hard time buying that.  

I googled it too and I still find it a bit confusing because on one hand it says typically the symptoms are relatively mild, but a 25% fatality rate seems pretty high for an illness that is thought of as otherwise mild. I also thought the show did a poor job of showing how dire the situation was but I think this show has always been more tell than show. 

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It doesn't help that Bay is still really inconsistent when it comes to Tank. Just in this episode, she seemed to swing from "he's a rapist!" to "he's a great guy" scene by scene. I just want this to be over!

I don't think Bay has ever actually called Tank a rapist, she's always been pretty vague when talking about it. Certain people around her, namely Regina, Travis, Daphne, have been a little more direct in the language they use, but Bay actually has been pretty consistent in saying that while she felt violated and that it was not okay for Tank to do what he did to her, she always maintained that Tank is a good guy.  

I have no idea if Tank is in any of the remaining episodes but I hope not because they've beaten the story to death now and nothing good can come from him popping back up in the handful of episodes we have left. Before the episode aired Lizzy Weiss tweeted that there'd be a huge secret revealed in the episode that many fans will hate her for and that there was a huge argument over it that divided the writers' room, so it seems like they knew there'd be a negative response but just enjoy stirring up controversy. After the episode aired, she added that she knew it would be controversial (duh) but that they love the actor, which seems like a stupid reason to do a storyline that could potentially ruin a character like Mary Beth for some of the audience. 

[John S]

Two years ago I predicted that Bay taking the fall for Daphne would psychologically destroy both of them. Because Bay kept Daphne from going to jail, Daphne would feel tremendous guilt if anything ever happened to Bay. I thought that Bay would have problems with the law because she is a convicted felon. That hasn't happened. However, that guilt IS there. We FINALLY saw it - and it was not only because Daphne asked Bay to go to China with her.

It looks to me like Bay might  also have problems. If she goes back to Emmett, then that is messed up.

[maraleia]

I still can't get over the fact that Regina knew about the switch and never told anyone and that colors the entire show for me. Also, they are making everything about Daphne which smacks of white privilege. I don't care about the fact that she was raised Latinx because she doesn't act like it and for that matter Regina doesn't either.

Also, I still can't believe they had Bay take the fall for Daphne when Daphne already did an illegal thing when she was working for John when he was a politician. Daphne has never had to face the consequences of her behavior and I hope they finally have her reap the consequences of siding with Mingo over his latest fuckery.

Lastly, the Toby story is just stupid because if they wanted him to face any fallout from his gambling it needed to happen when he was in high school.

[Eri]

Is Kansas City such a small town where everyone just dates each other? Seriously everyone, sans Toby, has at least dated two secondary or tertiary aquaintances throughout the entire show. Bay and Daphne have dated each others' exes multiple times. Friends of theirs hook up with other friends. Is UMKC that limited in the dating pool that Mary Beth didn't have ANYONE ELSE to talk to? No one? I would have found it a bit more interesting if she was secretly emailing Ty for comfort if they insisted on stirring up drama between her and Bay.  As everyone else has said, the Tank horse is dead. I lost a lot of respect for Bay for cheating with Emmett and I'd hate to see her go down that path again with Travis because as bull-headed as he is, he doesn't need yet another girl breaking his heart.

Toby Toby Toby....*sigh* Once a sane character completely derailed to be a divorcee with few job prospects in the music realm. Did they need to bring back his gambling addiction? I was under the impression that he lied about being a successful DJ and was just making a living through the gambling (thank goodness I was wrong). I thought the marriage was a complete excuse to yell at each other over things they bottled up this whole time - who starts an argument in the middle of a ceremony?  If I was ordaining my brother's marriage and it escalated that quickly I'd have stopped the whole thing myself and have them cool off first. Toby's been down this road so he should have had the good sense to see the red flags but hey, he's always been a pushover. The only saving grace would have been if Wilke could have been there for the wedding, at least in a brief cameo! Then HE could have been the one to cheer Daphne up instead of Military Dude whose name I forget.

It seems as if the show wants to give Daphne the "worrywart" role for about everyone this season because she has no prospects right now. They touched on her handling of Angelo's death pretty hard and part of me still thinks she expects something to happen to Bay. Does anyone think they'll pull another death scare like that near the end of the finale?

Finally, I never thought I'd see the day when John would be the most sensible character in an episode - they're all so desensitized to Regina's dating life that they're used to it lol. Daphne would've had no right to judge after the Chef Jeff debacle and Bay wouldn't have cared either way.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Eri

[waving feather]

42 minutes ago, Eri said:

Finally, I never thought I'd see the day when John would be the most sensible character in an episode

John has became the most sensible character not only in this episode but this whole season so far. I feel like he's the only person responding to things like a normal logical human being.

Regina is a mess, no wonder Daphne has destructive tendencies. I hated the advice Regina gave Daphne about the culture appropriation. Dressing up like your fav rapper (without black face) is hardly the same as someone wearing a sombrero pushing a lawn mower to imitate a Mexican. One is no big deal and the other very offensive. If they can't differentiate the two, they have bigger problems. 

[Athena]

This was episode was a mess.

They managed to insert and reference several storylines and arcs into this one episode and still make it seem much longer than it was. I didn't enjoy it.

I feel John has been more sane than most of these characters in the last couple of seasons. He's misguided and ignorant of a lot of things, but actually has shown a lot of growth. Moreso than any other character on this show.

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm not buying that the parents didn't know about Bay. They said she spent literally weeks in that shack. There was no Internet or phones out there. And they didn't wonder where their child was? 

I thought the fight between Lilly and Toby was pretty real. I saw both points. She is taking too much on her shoulders and he should help more. But it did seem that whenever he tried he wasn't doing it "right."

No idea why they are doing this thing with Regina and Luka. It is not adding anything. And in fact makes her continue to look flaky. Must she always have a guy? Can she just not be for a while doing well on her own as a businesswoman and student and mom?

[Everleigh]

On 2/15/2017 at 9:27 PM, KaveDweller said:

I noticed the Regina thing too, I think it was a mistake. It is really weird the actress wouldn't catch that.

This jumped out at me too but it's not the first time Daphne has called her mom Regina when talking to someone else. My sister was catching up on last season this weekend and I happened to catch some of the baby shower episode where Bay finds out Regina has been lying about Eric when Hope shows up and kidnaps Will back, and when Daphne is explaining the situation to Bay, she actually refers to her mom as Regina several times in that one conversation. So I don't think it was a mistake because I don't think they'd make the same mistake more than once, especially not more than once in the same conversation. Odd choice though. Maybe it's just easier to sign "Regina" than it is to sign "'my mom" and that's why Daphne does it. 

[joanne3482]

23 hours ago, scribe95 said:

I thought the fight between Lilly and Toby was pretty real. I saw both points. She is taking too much on her shoulders and he should help more. But it did seem that whenever he tried he wasn't doing it "right."

Among people I know it is a pretty common fight even when your kid does not have Down's Syndrome, so I did appreciate that and she did seem a little over the top about his routines and everything. She seemed desperate for control in a situation where she has little to none. 

On 2/16/2017 at 8:22 PM, Eri said:

I was under the impression that he lied about being a successful DJ and was just making a living through the gambling (thank goodness I was wrong).

I had the same impression, especially when he was putting down sums like $10k.  At least in Ireland, gambling is different than it is here in the states. When I visited I noticed there were bookmakers' shops everywhere. It was tempting to walk in and drop a couple bucks on a rugby game or something like that just out of curiosity. I can see how someone with a gambling addiction would have a problem. And he said something along those lines when speaking to Lily.  

I also thought that because for the most part I don't consider a DJ a real job... It's the old person in me who can't fathom that this is a viable career path with long term prospects.