S05.E12: Bratva

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Rene continues to surprisingly not suck as much as he used to.  Who knew Quentin would bring the best out of that character?

I think Steve oversold those scenes, but the characters really have a nice energy between the two of them. They also highlighted how constricted Susan's role is. Quentin preps with WD and then talks about the interview with WD, but there is no scene with Susan actually conducting the interview or for that matter hearing WD's story.

9 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I'm starting to wonder if this is all going to end like the first Iron Man, where he's just at a press conference and is all "Fine, I'm the Green Arrow!" about it.  What's the worst that can happen, at this point?

The worst part is then watching the writers try to deal with it on screen. I think it's a bad idea from the character viewpoint, but if they ever do decide to do it, I hope they save it for the show finale so the writers don't have to grapple with the consequences and the viewers don't have to watch them attempting to do it.

[Mellowyellow]

I watched it and I really enjoyed it! I refuse to address certain aspects of the episode because of reasons!

Love Felicity's walk to the dark side. I think they are doing this really well and I hope they continue. It's very true to her adorable beanie wearing character as well. It's how I would imagine Felicity going dark so I am happy. I also find this new Felicity a bit more dangerous. She used to argue with Oliver and use her loud voice (I don't want to be the woman that you love etc). Now she kinda brushes him off cheerily and does whatever the hell she wants in private! This is awesome and a bit scary but oh so awesome!

Ok I am a sucker! I liked the hug! I really did! I rewatched it like a zillion times and I had a stupid smile each time. And this is probably of no significance but Felicity is initiating contact again! The finger jap and now the hug! Optimistic me wants to believe it will be a full blown romp by the end of the season. Plzzzzzzz TPTB!!!!!!

I LIKE Dinah! I actually LOVED that scene with her and Oliver which the dialogue type up initially had me freaking out (yes I should listen to you good people and not indulge in the crazies before I know the context)! She was so pissed!!!!! Like she had enough of his whining special snowflake man pain! I could really like her! I want Dinah and Felicity scenes.

*Disclaimer: If Oliver and Dinah bang or flirt and my Felicity gets shafted I will curse her with the fire of a thousands suns and all goodwill will cease! 

[LeighAn]

First viewing thoughts:

I never been turned in by a woman until Bratvalicity. Bad ass. Emily was so cool and composed and threatening in that scene and its something I'll point to as evidence that she is not a one trick pony. She didn't over play it which could have easily been done. 

My fave part was the way she lowers her voice with "don't make me ask you again". I feel like Oliver would be a combination of proud, turned on and scared shirtless for her if he'd been there.

I was a little meh about Rory and Felicity before this ep. I enjoyed them, I think they characters worked well together and they had an emotional connection that felt organic and earnt rather then forced friendships like Curtis and Rene for instance. But I didn't consider Rory and Felicity as make or break until this episode. This episode reminded me of how I felt watching OTA bond for the first time in the Dodger episode where I was totally jazzed by this growing friendship and holding my breath hoping it'd  keep going. But alas...

Seriously losing the Rory/Felicity friendship annoyed me more then the post coital scene. I feel like Rory/Felicity were what fanfic writers write Roy/Felicity friendship is which the show never gave. He will be missed. Ugh Tinah!

Btw she continues to be neither off putting nor exciting. I remain ambivalent to her and I really don't see her as being treated with any more importance then the rest of the B team (Rene, Rory, Curtis,Artemis). If this is what the spoiler sources meant by her being everywhere I can deal with it. 

Im filing Susan in a stupid plot point that's a means to an end like Ray like Baby Mama like Billy. All I will say is we better get one hell of a 3x20 esque scene for the Olicity reunion sex.

Speaking of the writers had Oliver and Felicity run into each other's arms when they thought a nuclear bomb was going to go off around them. Enough said. 

With Olivers storyline I appreciate from a thematic point that the way the Big Bad is fighting Oliver this year is not through blunt force or physical attacks but by manipulating and corrupting the people closes to Oliver and having him watch his friends destroy themselves or their moral lines. I think it's a smart and different move for a Big Bad on this show. 

I also see how this leads to Okiver growth because it's not how good he is at fighting or what trick bows he has that will win this fight, he'll win based on how good he is at inspiring and giving light and hope to his friends and believers Yada Yada.

So there were moments I really enjoyed of Oliver tonight and he's helplessness that he's losing the two people that matter most to him or at least watching them lose their grip and his powerlessness to stop it.

I also see the line about how Oliver Diggle and Felicity make each other better as a very good anvil for a strong OTA reinforced culmination of this storyline. I even see how the newbies fit in as they allow the writers to explore Felicity and Diggle descent into murky waters or down the rabbit hole while still giving Oliver a pep squad to bounce him off of when Delicity aren't in head space for it.

But what I'm less jazzed about is this need to always preference Oliver being the shiny light for others moment with Oliver waxing philosophical about his own traumatic past and embracing his man pain. Not only do I think it undermines the other characters pain but I just don't think it's necessary. The audience gets and understands that Oliver been through some tough shit that's left him scarred having him go all woe is me to beef up his big saving souls moment and being the light moment just comes off repetitive and tired that I'm hoping this seasons journey for Oliver will be the end of it. 

[LeighAn]

17 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

*Disclaimer: If Oliver and Dinah bang or flirt and my Felicity gets shafted I will curse her with the fire of a thousands suns and all goodwill will cease! 

Haha. That's the spirit! 

[Jediknight]

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I remain half convinced that reporter girl will still turn out to be Prometheus. And a little disappointed that Anatoly's dreadful favor just turned out to be intimidating a rival into stopping his business. The Bratva couldn't have handled that?

Nah, I'm guessing she's related to somebody that Oliver and Anatoly killed, and she made an oath to that person to destroy the person responsible.  This episode made oaths a big deal, and they made sure to focus on the vodka bottle in Russia (same brand in Susan's residence).  I don't think she's Prometheus, she's trying to destroy Oliver in the public eye and take everything from him.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Jediknight

[Velocity23]

Maybe Tommy was the great love of the reporter. 

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Maybe Tommy was the great love of the reporter. 

That'd be a left of field twist. Hmm interesting.

I feel though that it would have to be a  Laurel/Oliver thing where Susan loved him but Tommy didn't love her for it to really make sense though with what we knew of season one.

[Velocity23]

4 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I feel though that it would have to be a  Laurel/Oliver thing where Susan loved him but Tommy didn't love her for it to really make sense though with what we knew of season one.

And the way O/L treated Tommy when he watched the hook-up.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

And the way O/L treated Tommy when he watched the hook-up.

Petty me: I would laugh if the writers brought KC back just to have her in a flash back sex scene with Tommy as a way to show how cray cray the girl Oliver is currently screwing is. 

 

Non petty me: I'm hoping there's some kind of twist to Susan's intentions as the story is so blah right now even though I appreciate that it's about damn time they did a "who is the Green Arrow" storyline and bring in a little more stakes to Olivers (not so secret) secret masked identity.

But until I see more I'm kind of leaning on she's just a basic reporter doing a expose and sleeping with her subject for info which is just the most degrading cliche I wish tv/movie writers would move on from.

[Mellowyellow]

I'm still smiling about the hug!

Gawd I'm so cheap and can be so easily bought! But it makes me happeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! *insert lots of happy faces*

[bijoux]

I just came across these gifs and putting aside the what the eff, have Felicity and Dig really not seen each other until now factor, DR really could have played it with some emotions. Like a smile and shoulder squeeze. I don't know, maybe it was to keep him in the right frame of mind leading up to him almost killing that guy later on. But not gonna lie, it was a let down.

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I just came across these gifs and putting aside the what the eff, have Felicity and Dig really not seen each other until now factor, DR really could have played it with some emotions. Like a smile and shoulder squeeze. I don't know, maybe it was to keep him in the right frame of mind leading up to him almost killing that guy later on. But not gonna lie, it was a let down.

I also expected someone to recognize that it's thanks to her that he is free. Instead it seems that it was all Chase not only in the alternative version of the show Wendy is watching.

[bijoux]

Someone wrote upthread that Chase actually did acknowledge the person who got the information. I didn't catch it, but I wasn't completely tuned in to that scene, so I'm going to take their word for it.

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Someone wrote upthread that Chase actually did acknowledge the person who got the information. I didn't catch it, but I wasn't completely tuned in to that scene, so I'm going to take their word for it.

Oh that's good! I didn't catch it either. I guess the team couldn't do the same because they have to stress the fact that what Felicity is doing is wrong to the viewers..

[Velocity23]

I am glad Felicity picks up on the good qualities of Oliver. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Velocity23

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I am glad Felicity picks up on the good qualities of Oliver. 

Teachers pet

[bijoux]

Season 2: Oliver plans to sacrifice himself to Slade. Felicity and Dig drug him and haul his ass out of there.

Season 3: Oliver plans to sacrifice himself to the LoA. Felicity drugs him and the teams attempts to haul his ass out of there.

Now that Felicity is starting to exhibit those tendencies, I'll be disappointed if I don't get Oliver and/or Dig drugging her before the season comes to a close.

[Tazmania]

I will never get over the fact that they had a guy with magical rags who can absorb a nuclear blast in the team but he has been taking orders from a guy who fights with bow and arrows .... this just proves that Guggie & co are about as dumb as Oliver ...

[Tazmania]

Another thing I would like to know, how come a street smart rough around the edges guy got so good at media handling? Can we ask Wild Dong to tutor all the CW actors and Chico on how to operate social media? 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tazmania

[bijoux]

You know, I found it ridiculous to be having WD prep Lance, but I ended up loving the reasoning for him being appointed for the job. So he doesn't cause an international incident in Russia. :)

On an unrelated note, I find a lot of the people working on the show to be kind of disengaged at times. Not so the set designer! That was an awesome huge bear ice sculpture in the Tea Room. Two thumbs up. 

[Primetimer]

Will ghosts from Oliver's past come back to haunt him when he returns to Russia? Yes. Obviously.

View the full article

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oh and I really hate the new Canary Cry.  The tone is the worst.  Like a dolphin in a blender. Drowning.   With Laurel it was the visual, this time the tone is so bad I don't even notice if there's anything off with the visual.

It's supposed to be bad.  It's supposed to cause harsh, deafening agony that kills people and breaks things.  If her sonic death scream sounds like Ave Maria, she's probably doing it wrong.

[Chaser]

It's supposed to be bad in the show, not for the audience. It doesn't sound powerful, it sounds like a squeaky whistle in an old dog toy. I hope they adjust it down the line.

[tangerine95]

I actually enjoyed that episode despite the Oliver Susan grossness at the end. Whenever there's focus on stuff that works and the relationships and characters that have earned their place, the show works much better for me even with all its obvious faults. 

I love Felicity's storyline, they're doing a much better job with it so far than I expected. The pacing of it is actually good, its been consistently shown in every episode since 5. 10 and Felicity isn't ooc or dumb like they often make characters who are supposed to be going through their island. That scene where she threatened the bratva guy was amazing, EBR was really good imo. 

I hate that they got rid of Rory, he was the one newbie I liked but at least they didn't kill him so we'll probably see him again. I'm going to miss Felicity having a friend that I could buy actually caring about her and enjoy their scenes. I hope this means we get more of Digg being Felicity's friend instead of constantly Curtis and Felicity scenes again but thats probably unlikely tbh.

The rest of the newbies weren't as annoying this episode because they were in the background again but i still think they have no relevant purpose at all. WD was okay with Lance but I keep thinking why is he dealing with this and not Thea. And what Tinah said to Oliver made sense but it's totally unearned. She has no real idea about Oliver, Felicity and Digg or what they've been through and what they mean to each other so her saying all that felt very forced to me. 

I liked Oliver trying to help Felicity and Digg, finally some real ota scenes. I hope this continues through the rest of the season and he's still there for Felicity because she clearly didn't take his advice. Tho tbh I think Felicity's darkness makes way more sense than Oliver's optimism lol 

Idk how they plan on redeeming Susan and trying to make anything between her and Oliver genuine because she's clearly not giving up on her story even now that they're apparently all in. And even in the bed scene she seemed more like she was trying to get some info instead of actually wanting to know because she cares about him.I wonder if they'll even give Oliver a scene where he talks to someone about why he's with Susan at all or they'll avoid it because they know there's no real answer other than because plot.  It's weird that he hasn't had that already imo. Usually Digg would talk to him about that, he did for most of his other relationships. Or at least Thea since she's so against it. 

[blixie]

Quote

Dinah strikes me as more alpha than Oliver.  I'm not sure we've even been shown the beginnings of a great work partnership.  It's just slightly off to me somehow but I'm not sure what. (I don't dislike Dinah, just the scream.)

I actually think they have great chemistry and real care is being taken to build a *relationship* based on shared experiences and struggles, it's working for me A LOT, enough that I'm not opposed to leaving Olicity in the past for good, because I really do not need to see these hacks mess up that up again ,and I think Felicity is being given some of her best development yet, while she and Oliver are apart and "over".  I want to see more of it and I do want it to be intimate, I think it could be good in it's own right AND also possibly fuel some drama for he and Felicity to eventually reunite. 

I love new Dinah's kind of a hard ass, and has no time for Oliver's brooding angst, and can crack jokes with Diggle and toss back shots with Anatoly. I think she was able to heart to heart him because she's taking things one day at a time, not trying to cope and face down her ish every minute of every day, which is hilarious to me since she's following the advice Oliver can give but can not practice his own self for nothing.

Of course I also think her ish was largely contrived and isn't nearly on the same level as what Oliver's is, she's had a couple of tough years dealing with her boyfriend's death by being meta Vengeance girl, but most of that felt like Oliver projecting onto her, and less her being all I've been terrible monster person, help me!

Quote

Oliver has been off all season.  He's both darker and more of a wuss at the same time.  Pessimistically resigned while concurrently trying to be redeemed and save others. Robotic and closed off while spilling his guts and bringing in lots of new people.  Basically he anything and everything the script requires at any given moment without a lot of coherence.   

Eh but that is who Oliver is, he's both/and/all. I think S4 Oliver is probably my favorite, last season I felt like he was as healthy as he'd ever been, but also kind of too casual and blase about the murdering. This season he's still feels integrated to me, but I'm glad to see the struggle back, yet balanced by a resignation and acceptance of who he has been  and who he is now. I see him putting a lot of effort into moving on w/o Felicity, not because he doesn't still love her, but because she's made her own choice clear to him, and Oliver w/o Felicity will always feel at loose ends both to himself and to me as viewer.  he needs her light, but right now she can't be that for him, she's not obligated to BE that for him. I really like how they're both working through who *Felicity* has been and who she is now.

Anyway I loved the episode, save the fact that the entire Reporter "relationship" makes me snarl and my eyelid twitch, not because he's dumb, but because it's so obvious that she doesn't mean much to him, and she is a walking plot device. The other thing is sitting out Rory, UGH he's my favorite recruit, and while this episode went far to actually make Wild Dog rootable and interesting for the first time, and it's still not enough good will to see him stick around while Rory is benched, hopefully temporarily.

That's really my only complaint this seasons is that while I liked the Newbies, and I like OTA, the show struggles to juggle the two dynamics rather than blending them, which to be fair they've always been terrible at juggling the cast, and I do think benching people in cast this large has to bet he strategy. I liked this episode reaffirming OTA, but with a new pivot in which Oliver is as much anchor for them, as they are to him. 

 

Oh and it appears I am the only one who is picking up on very WEIRD Rory/Felicity pairing vibes, it's not clear to me how we're supposed to view them he's a "kid" to her or is he an equal team mate? They've built a pretty great friendship-teammate relationship up, but this episode seemed to shift into a new WEIRD gear, with WEIRD vibes, and then he also splits like he himself can not deal wit his WEIRD new vibes and BOND that he is feeling for Felicity instead of his rags. IDK I'm not for or against it's just there being weird. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by blixie

[bethy]

I wonder if one of the reasons Thea is MIA is so they can get Oliver with Susan without the hassle of someone who can actually articulate the reasons why it is dumb, dumb, dumb for Oliver to be pursuing a relationship with her. If Thea's not there and, evidently?, no one else aware of what's going on with Susan, they can stick with Oliver's feeble, "Thea doesn't hate you" as the only push back against the ridiculousness of his hooking up with the reporter who manipulated his little sister, is currently investigating the death of a man he killed, drinks vodka, and asks snoopy questions about his Bratva tattoo. Come back, Thea!

[lemotomato]

25 minutes ago, blixie said:

Eh but that is who Oliver is, he's both/and/all. I think S4 Oliver is probably my favorite, last season I felt like he was as healthy as he'd ever been, but also kind of too casual and blase about the murdering.

How was Oliver being casual about murdering in season 4 when he wasn't killing anyone in season 4, and hadn't been killing (except for Ra's) since season 2?

Edited February 9, 2017 by lemotomato

[blixie]

Quote

How was Oliver being casual about murdering in season 4 when he wasn't killing anyone in season 4, and hadn't been killing (except for Ra's) since season 2?

It was my impression that all last year he employed torture and was killing people, and that he was quite chill about it, but I'll concede close watching wasn't a thing I was doing, nor am I willing to view it again to verify the point one way or the other. I was glad Oliver accepted sometimes you have to kill people like Dahrk. Oliver didn't kill Darhrk or any of his ghosts? I mean....

Overall Oliver of last year felt TOO well adjusted, this one feels just the right amount, doing his best but getting angsty and self loathing and of course rock eating Dumb every now and then. 

[lemotomato]

5 minutes ago, blixie said:

Oliver didn't kill Darhrk or any of his ghosts? I mean....

He killed DD at the very end, but that was the whole point. He spent all of season 4B wondering if maybe it would be better if he dropped his "no killing" rule. And no, he didn't kill the ghosts.

[wonderwall]

58 minutes ago, blixie said:

I actually think they have great chemistry and real care is being taken to build a *relationship* based on shared experiences and struggles, it's working for me A LOT, enough that I'm not opposed to leaving Olicity in the past for good, because I really do not need to see these hacks mess up that up again ,and I think Felicity is being given some of her best development yet, while she and Oliver are apart and "over".  I want to see more of it and I do want it to be intimate, I think it could be good in it's own right AND also possibly fuel some drama for he and Felicity to eventually reunite. 

I'm not really sure I understand this logic. What makes you think they won't mess with Dinah/Oliver like they did with Oliver/Felicity? If the writers want drama, they'll create it no matter who the couple is, imo. Just like how the baby mama drama would've happened regardless of who Oliver was with. 

To be honest, I feel like Dinah/Oliver are more prone to drama than Oliver/Felicity because their relationship would be considerably newer.

Also I feel like what's going on with Felicity would've happened regardless of whether or not she was with Oliver because this storyline isn't about him nor is it about them as a couple. It's just something that's been a long time coming. I'd argue that Felicity's arc would've gotten more screentime and a better point of view if she was with Oliver because she'd actually have the main character to talk to. 

I guess in the end, for me, if Oliver does bang Dinah I wouldn't really want him to get back together with Felicity and would most likely drop the show. I can't possibly root for a guy who banged 3/3 canaries. How gross. 

[Chaser]

In big picture narrative the conversation betweeen Oliver and Tinah was about moving along Diggle and Felicity's stories (and OTA as a whole) and getting Oliver in bed with Reporter (looking at the sequence of events I'm wondering if the Russia comment also did that). It's hard for me to see it as building a relationship between Oliver and Tinah cause of all that. The most I would say is it established a rapport between them that IMO was more buddy.

[LeighAn]

I'm just going to focus on the fact that the writers made a specific choice to have Oliver and Felicity literally run into each other's arms and hold each other when they thought a nuclear bomb was going to go off .... even though Tinah/Dinah he supposed comic canon be all and end all was right there. He ran from Black Canaru straight to Felicity. I'm sticking by that. 

They could have made that into a testing moment for GA/BC version 4.0 with romantic anvils but they didn't they made an Olicity moment out of it. Instead they had Tinah seem visibly annoyed by Olivers brooding and gave him a get your head out of your ass and go help your friends/loved ones speech that was more based on partnership/friendship/plot necessity.

It's a conversation that could have been had by anyone- Thea, Lance, Curtis,Rene- verbatim and it would have been no different coming from them then from Tinah.

[blixie]

Quote

And no, he didn't kill the ghosts.

 I don't actually care if he did, the show doesn't really take the time to clarify when he's shooting to wound v. shooting to kill and it's only clarified in the telling relative to what his moral development is supposed to reflect that episode.  Meanwhile the showing is very much: he just murdered the fuck out of half the room. They ghosts looked dead to me. In my opinion he behaved as if he was comfortable returning to the kind of brutality he exhibited in S1, while still hemming and hawing over killing Dahrk, Dahrk's life seemed to matter way more than his mindless recruits getting mowed down every episode.

 

Quote

 What makes you think they won't mess with Dinah/Oliver like they did with Oliver/Felicity?

The writers are very good at developing relationships, I wouldn't still be with the show if they weren't. They are pretty outsandingly terrible at handling actual romantic relationships in the course of the ongoing narratives, but quite simply I care far more about Felicity as a character and Olicity as a relationship, and don't want to see it messed with again. At least now I have an interesting Oliver and for ONCE an interesting independent arc of character development for Felicity, AND they're still solid sparky team and former lovers trying to move forward dynamic. To see Oliver capable of developing a second mature adult INTIMACY relationship with a woman who is NOT Felicity, with an actress I think he has real chemistry with is important to me and my enjoyment of his character, but if the writers fuck that up, I'm not going to care nearly as much as watching them destroy something I love far more :  Olicity and OTA. 

I am merely open to the idea and think it will grow Oliver in ways I value/enjoy, and I'd take ten of that v. ten more random hot chicks he bangs while being a rock eating moron. I think Oliver needs to know he can be mature adult human who can do intimacy and vulnerability with ANYONE not just this one girl who is his personal savior of light,  too precious to have her own issues and darkness. As a viewer I need to know that Oliver can do that too.

 

And I'm never going to get why banging three canaries is the vector of "grossness". Banging two sisters? Yes. Banging women he has not real intimacy with? Yes. I loved Sarah but hated that he banged her (BECAUSE SHE WAS LAURELS SISTER). I hated Laurel and hated that he banged her (BECAUSE SHE WAS AN ASSHOLE). I loved Huntress and loved those two broken fuck ups banging, because I thought they had a real connection, one that was dark and fucked up but also hot and interesting I know I'm largely alone in this but I don't need exterior validation about ships. Him having random meaningless sex with Dinah would be bad and icky, but that's not what I'm anticipating.

[dtissagirl]

32 minutes ago, Chaser said:

In big picture narrative the conversation betweeen Oliver and Tinah was about moving along Diggle and Felicity's stories (and OTA as a whole) and getting Oliver in bed with Reporter (looking at the sequence of events I'm wondering if the Russia comment also did that). It's hard for me to see it as building a relationship between Oliver and Tinah cause of all that. The most I would say is it established a rapport between them that IMO was more buddy.

I'm putting the conversation between Oliver and Tinah in the plus column because when Oliver repeated the anchor line to the reporter my reaction was "omg Oliver is quoting something he heard 2 days ago, not FIVE YEARS AGO IN A FLASHBACK OMG IT IS A RUSSIAN MIRACLE!"

[Midnight Lullaby]

They made a big deal out of not killing last season though. And they had Felicity and Oliver discuss, when she was in the hospital, exactly that because it used to be important. And even this one they had Oliver say that if he was willing to kill last year maybe Laurel would still be alive. It's not like they left it ambiguous.

I have zero interest in Oliver's romantic relationships at this point. The one with Felicity was special, I guess in large part because the actors made it special, but I find Oliver dull with every other woman. I think Tinah has more chances to shine if they don't put her in a relationship with him. I also liked Helena but didn't care about her relationship with Oliver at all.

I think the writers made it gross already having another BC that will take a dead woman's identity. It's like they keep changing sweaters after they shrink. And Oliver being attracted by a woman that uses his two ex girlfriends identity, has the same power of the earth 2 version of one of them and has their mom's name would be icky. Also funny but mostly icky.

Also the writers allow Oliver to grow and develop until the plot needs him to act like a moron, there's a problem there that has nothing to do with him being in a relationship with anyone or him being alone.

[tv echo]

My fave scenes were the two related OTA scenes (Oliver: "I need the two of you to be better than me. Because you are. That's why we work together." and Diggle: "Me and Felicity, we're no better than you. You, me, Felicity. We make each other better.") and the Felicity/Curtis/Rory undercover mission.

I love Felicity, but I found her quite scary and believable in that scene where she blackmailed the DetraLink exec, Maxim Ostrovsky.  Curtis and Rory as Bratva henchmen? Not so much. 

Felicity and Rory both showed true courage and selflessness. She was willing to go all Dark Knight Rises with the nuke. He was willing to sacrifice himself.  I'll miss their friendship.

You know, Oliver is really pretty self-centered for a hero. He doesn't notice anything wrong with Diggle until it's right in his face - when he sees Diggle using Walker's minion like a punching bag. And Oliver doesn't notice anything wrong with Felicity until Rory tells him she crossed a line. It reminds me of back in S2 when Felicity called Oliver out on being oblivious to Diggle's problems.

Did Dinah get Laurel's wardrobe and stylist as well as her place on the team? Her red dress and hairstyle when she was practicing her sonic scream on the vase seemed very Laurel-like. 

Wow, Oliver is so chatty and trusting this season. Maybe it's the writers' way of showing how Oliver has evolved (eyeroll) from not trusting anyone to trusting everyone in sight. He was confiding his insecurities to a reporter on their first coffee 'date' and now he's engaging in pillow talk with Susan on their first sleepover. I wouldn't be surprised if Susan took a photo of his tattoo while he was asleep.

Oliver's also opening up to a woman he's only known for a week.* Even after Evelyn's betrayal, he decided to trust Dinah with the secrets of his team just because she has the same sonic cry and name as Laurel. But really, when/how did Dinah become such an Oliver expert? Dinah says that the rest of the team told her to ignore Oliver when he's in one of his moods, but brooding gets on her nerves, so she's gonna ignore their advice - and turns out, she's right. She gives him a pep talk, he listens and follows her advice.**

(* Maybe they have some kind of instant cosmic connection like in the GA Rebirth comics where Oliver muses,"There’s something about her… something that makes me feel gratefully defenseless.")

(** Waiting for the comments that Dinah knows how to reach Oliver when no one else can. Waiting. Oh... too soon?)

I almost wish that both Susan and Dinah will turn out to be working for Prometheus, but I realize that's unlikely. 

So did Officer Lance also put a coat around young Rene's shoulders?

I'll miss Rory. Why oh why couldn't we keep him and get rid of Wild Dog?!

So I'm guessing 'Alena' is Kojo Sledgehammer's real name?

Edited February 9, 2017 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

People are attacking me with parallels!

[tv echo]

Arrow has posted 512 video clips on youtube here...
List: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtiCOweGmyKAO2odjX0qiDg

Edited February 9, 2017 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, blixie said:

The writers are very good at developing relationships, I wouldn't still be with the show if they weren't. They are pretty outsandingly terrible at handling actual romantic relationships in the course of the ongoing narratives, but quite simply I care far more about Felicity as a character and Olicity as a relationship, and don't want to see it messed with again. At least now I have an interesting Oliver and for ONCE an interesting independent arc of character development for Felicity, AND they're still solid sparky team and former lovers trying to move forward dynamic. To see Oliver capable of developing a second mature adult INTIMACY relationship with a woman who is NOT Felicity, with an actress I think he has real chemistry with is important to me and my enjoyment of his character, but if the writers fuck that up, I'm not going to care nearly as much as watching them destroy something I love far more :  Olicity and OTA. 

I'm still not sure I really understand where you're coming from. Because you say you want Oliver to enter into a relationship with Dinah, but they're terrible at handling actual romantic relationships... So I'm just incredibly lost here. Why would you want Oliver to taint Dinah's character development like that if the show is bound to mess up Oliver/Dinah? 

And I agree with you that the writers are very good at developing relationships. But where I must vehemently disagree with you is that the writers aren't actually terrible at handling romantic ones, In fact, they did a spectacular job with Oliver/Felicity before the network interfered and told the EPs to break them up. It's the actual drama that the writers suck at writing, not romantic relationships in general. In fact, the writers are excellent at writing a healthy couple in Oliver/Felicity, add to the fact that the actors elevate the material so well, it's just great to watch. 

Again, I guess I don't understand, what makes you think that the writers would mess up Olicity again but not Dinah/Oliver?

1 hour ago, blixie said:

I am merely open to the idea and think it will grow Oliver in ways I value/enjoy, and I'd take ten of that v. ten more random hot chicks he bangs while being a rock eating moron. I think Oliver needs to know he can be mature adult human who can do intimacy and vulnerability with ANYONE not just this one girl who is his personal savior of light,  too precious to have her own issues and darkness. As a viewer I need to know that Oliver can do that too.

This I don't get even more... How does Oliver being in another relationship develop his character? Don't you think Oliver going from one vagina to another weakens his character more? Oliver being in an intimate relationship with Dinah, imo, would be so incredibly awkward because she's on the team. The same team Felicity is in. And regardless of what anyone thinks, these two will always love one another. I definitely don't want Felicity to feel uncomfortable in a place where she feels most home at, and this would make BOTH Oliver and Dinah look like such complete assholes to me for putting her in that position.

That too, I can't imagine Dinah ever being friends with Felicity if she ever banged Oliver. I guess it depends on what you think is more important... Female friendships or Oliver banging another chick?

1 hour ago, blixie said:

And I'm never going to get why banging three canaries is the vector of "grossness". Banging two sisters? Yes. Banging women he has not real intimacy with? Yes. I loved Sarah but hated that he banged her (BECAUSE SHE WAS LAURELS SISTER). I hated Laurel and hated that he banged her (BECAUSE SHE WAS AN ASSHOLE). I loved Huntress and loved those two broken fuck ups banging, because I thought they had a real connection, one that was dark and fucked up but also hot and interesting I know I'm largely alone in this but I don't need exterior validation about ships. Him having random meaningless sex with Dinah would be bad and icky, but that's not what I'm anticipating.

The reason why it's gross is that it further establishes how replaceable women are. Oliver banging a woman who replaced another woman he used to bang is just incredibly tasteless. They brought Dinah in to HONOR Laurel's memory, so for Oliver to fuck her is just incredibly gross and imo, would make Oliver look even more terrible. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

I read the comments here before I watched the episode and having done so, I found it ..... disappointing.  The show has brought on so many new characters and diluted the relationships I care about that I've lost connection to it.  The only scenes I want to rewatch are Felicity/Rory and Diggle/general.  And the only flashbacks.  (Who know that this season the flashbacks would be the best tihng in the show?)  The rest is meh, even the Oliver/Felicity hug which seemed to me more like Felicity being a damsel-in-distress looking for protection than anything mutual, I've seen the episode and now I have better things to do with my time.

13 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

He can no longer have a relationship with the love of his life, and he doesn't want to be that guy that pines and can't let go and ends up alone fifty years from now with nothing but regrets. Oliver wants to be happy. He's making a sincere effort at moving on, but he's also, in my opinion, depressed and a very busy man. He doesn't have the time, energy, or motivation to go out and meet someone. Susan's there. She's attractive. She wants to be with him.

The whole storyline makes Oliver so stupid, I have no time for him at all.

Also too stupid to catch Susan's "How did you get a tattoo on the island?"  How would Susan know he got the tattoo while he was away?  Was there a pap photo of a bare-chested Oliver getting on the boat with his father?

This Oliver is too stupid to be interesting.  While not actively annoying me, I still don't care about Wild Puppy or Dinah so if Diggle is now all straightened out because of Oliver's wise words, with Rory gone the only storyline I"m interested in is Felicity's

[dtissagirl]

42 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

they did a spectacular job with Oliver/Felicity before the network interfered and told the EPs to break them up.

I think the break up is on the EPs. They set it up in 408 to break them up in 415 in a super typical predictable way [that they screwed up by using the worst ever storyline to do it]. What I believe happened re: network interference is that the EPs probably meant to reunite O/F somewhere in 421-423, and that's when some suit told them to stall.

[Cleanqueen]

Will we ever find out what that alternate ending was for 4x23?

[statsgirl]

15 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Will we ever find out what that alternate ending was for 4x23?

They'll probably still use it or something similar for the last episode of the series if all the characters are still there.  My guess is something like Oliver going on protecting the city with Diggle/Felicity/X by his side.

[Cleanqueen]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They'll probably still use it or something similar for the last episode of the series if all the characters are still there.  My guess is something like Oliver going on protecting the city with Diggle/Felicity/X by his side.

I think Stephen said it was specifically him and Emily. Like something different for their characters than what we got in the actual ending.

[Chaser]

I didn't realize there was an alternative ending. When did he mention that?

[bijoux]

Neither did I. I know of some cut scene(s) according to the filming people saw, but it wasn't about the two of them.

[blixie]

Quote

Again, I guess I don't understand, what makes you think that the writers would mess up Olicity again but not Dinah/Oliver?

It's probably because I never said the writers will mess up Olicity and not Dinah/Oliver. I made it crystal clear it is matter of my relative investment in the two couples and the individual character of Dinah at this EARLY stage of her existence, this relative LACK of investment will make it easier for me to tolerate and watch, any messing up for Dinah and Oliver in way I wouldn't be able to hack if it were Olicity, and why I'm open to seeing them pursue one before or even instead of reuniting the other. You liked the last two seasons and the all the GREAT story Olicity got, I hated the last two seasons and thought Olicity was given garbage story, like rotten, stinking garbage. It's okay to disagree and just leave it at that.

Quote

Female friendships or Oliver banging another chick?

If I want to see Oliver in real non Felicity romantic relationship, I obviously don't value female friendships? Sure, you have me nailed to the wall.  And Felicity sure is being friendly with her! 

Quote

 does Oliver being in another relationship develop his character? 

This is a real question you're asking? Your argument is that Oliver falling in love with and Felicity didn't DEVELOP his character? That Oliver trusting John Diggle didn't *develop* his character, that Oliver's relationships with Thea and Roy didn't develop his character? That TV characters are not developed by the relationships they have with other characters? Seeing Oliver interact with other characters gives us insight into his character, the 101 random plot point bangs give me nothing. A real and thoughtfully written relationship with Dinah would give me something, it would give me information about him that he doesn't just hop from vagina to vagina but is capable of forming an adult with romantic relationship OTHER than the one I've already seen play out with Felicity,I want to know the kind of man he's capable of being WITHOUT her (the horror, the horror), and have it maybe not always be: dumbass who jumps in bed with the women he doesn't really love.

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I didn't realize there was an alternative ending. When did he mention that?

Idk if this is leading too much away from the topic, but to just answer the question, SA mentioned it at Wizard World, basically that the scene was shot differently then it ended up being (like how in 223 Oliver and Felicity actually kissed but it was edited out of the scene in the final cut). It's not really an alternate ending per se, but he just hinted that they played the scene differently, probably something like they actually held hands in the scene and they used the one shot that didn't, or there was another line that could have been more hinting towards a reunion or something.

[wonderwall]

Just now, blixie said:

If I want to see Oliver in real non Felicity romantic relationship, I obviously don't value female friendships? Sure, you have me nailed to the wall.  And Felicity sure is being friendly with her! 

You kinda missed my point. 

Dinah is on the team along with Felicity. Felicity and Oliver had an extremely valuable/deep relationship and it's clear they still really care about one another and are affected by one another. So if Dinah and Oliver get into a relationship, wouldn't that make Felicity uncomfortable in the lair? Wouldn't that make it harder for Felicity/Dinah to be friends like how Felicity/Rory were? Oliver/Dinah dating would likely not bode well for Felicity because them being in a relationship would be shoved in her face everyday just like how Sara/Oliver were in season 2. 

So yeah, you'd likely have to choose between a female friendship and Oliver banging another woman on the team. Because Dinah dating Felicity's ex fiance would be completely against the 'girl code'. If Dinah dates Oliver knowing his history with Felicity, It'll make me think that female solidarity really means nothing to Dinah.

1 minute ago, blixie said:

This is a real question you're asking? Your argument is that Oliver falling in love with and Felicity didn't DEVELOP his character? That Oliver trusting John Diggle didn't *develop* his character, that Oliver's relationships with Thea and Roy didn't develop his character? That TV characters are not developed by the relationships they have with other characters? Seeing Oliver interact with other characters gives us insight into his character, the 101 random plot point bangs give me nothing. A real and thoughtfully written relationship with Dinah would give me something, it would give me information about him that he doesn't just hop from vagina to vagina but is capable of forming an adult with romantic relationship OTHER than the one I've already seen play out with Felicity,I want to know the kind of man he's capable of being WITHOUT her (the horror, the horror), and have it maybe not always be: dumbass who jumps in bed with the women he doesn't really love.

Oliver didn't develop because he fell in love with Felicity though. He developed because Felicity helped Oliver bring out the best in him. She helped him develop long before he fell in love with her and long before he was in a relationship with her. Felicity brought out the best in Oliver and that has nothing to do with romance/Oliver being in a relationship and everything to do with their characters as individuals and how they respond to one another. I would like to point you to Oliver's vows. Oliver's vows to Felicity? It shows that Oliver's feelings for any other romantic partner won't ever hold a candle to how he feels for Felicity. So his relationship with Dinah will always seem like a consolation prize... IDK why anyone would want that for her.

Quote

Felicity, before I met you, I had a plan. I had a way that I was going to be. Then you walked into my life, or I … I showed up at your cubicle, and you changed everything. I was in darkness. But with your kindness, your generosity, your compassion, your intelligence, your wit and your trust, you brought me into the light. You let me know that I deserved it. You were that light. And I don’t know if I still deserve that trust, if I deserve you — I probably don’t — but whatever has happened, whatever will happen, the way that you make me feel is the best part of my life. You can ask me to say that I don’t love you, but I will never lie to you again. You are my always, and I just want the chance to be yours.

Dinah can help Oliver - but that doesn't mean they have to bang.  Dinah and Oliver can still have a thoughtful friendship without adding unnecessary romance into it.  Heck, they had a nice moment in this episode without any romantic undertones at all. So again, why is romance necessary? 

13 minutes ago, blixie said:

It's probably because I never said the writers will mess up Olicity and not Dinah/Oliver. I made it crystal clear it is matter of my relative investment in the two couples and the individual character of Dinah at this EARLY stage of her existence, this relative LACK of investment will make it easier for me to tolerate and watch, any messing up for Dinah and Oliver in way I wouldn't be able to hack if it were Olicity, and why I'm open to seeing them pursue one before or even instead of reuniting the other. You liked the last two seasons and the all the GREAT story Olicity got, I hated the last two seasons and thought Olicity was given garbage story, like rotten, stinking garbage. It's okay to disagree and just leave it at that.

IDK I guess for me, after season 4, I don't think we'll be seeing the writers mess Olicity up anymore. There's usually always a certain point in TV Relationships where the writers stop messing with said relationships and just let them be if they want said relationship to be endgame (and if BTS issues arise). If Oliver/Felicity do get back together this season, and I have a strong suspicion they will, I'm thinking they're here to stay for a myriad of reasons. 

• Because MG acknowledged that the drama between them was the least successful part of last season
• Because the ratings proved that it was not successful at all and showed people hated that they broke up
• With the ratings I Don't think the show will go on for more than 8 seasons and at this point, it's time for them to buckle down. 

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - Dinah/Oliver will make the show completely intolerable for me. And not because of Olicity, but because it'll just make Oliver and Dinah intolerable people who really have no regard for Felicity's feelings.

[wonderwall]

59 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think the break up is on the EPs. They set it up in 408 to break them up in 415 in a super typical predictable way [that they screwed up by using the worst ever storyline to do it]. What I believe happened re: network interference is that the EPs probably meant to reunite O/F somewhere in 421-423, and that's when some suit told them to stall.

Definitely possible. I'm not sure what the whole story is. But my point still stands that the writers are great at writing steady/healthy relationships and suck at writing relationship drama.