S03.E11: Not Everything's About Annelise

[Milaxx]

51 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I don't need accuracy. I just need logic. You can't arrest someone for a death that no one knows is a murder and a fire that no one knows is arson. Bail hearings don't work the way the show has depicted them. A bail hearing presupposes that the police/DA have enough presented evidence to a judge or grand jury to arrest Annalise. Police can arrest without a warrant provided that they have actually witnessed a crime. None of this happened on this dumb show. Bail is denied not because there is a mountain of evidence that indicates that the defendant is guilty, but because the defendant is likely to reoffend or flee the jurisdiction. Considering some of Annalise's past shenanigans, there is a decent argument to make that allowing her to be out of bail is contrary to the public interest. Of course this would mean that the DA would have to use actual facts as opposed conjecture or Wes' unverified statement to move to deny bail. For example any of Annalise's judicial or censures by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court could be used to demonstrate that Annalise would likely assault and coerce witnesses and shouldn't be out on bail. At no point has the show depicted that Annalise knew about Wes' statement.

At this point, I'm assuming that Atwood is working with a couple of precogs from Minority Report because that's the only she can make half the arguments she's made without any evidence.

This is why the whole fire deal has bugged me to no end. It makes no sense. I get Bonnie is supposed to be shown as bumbling in court, but why would she not offer to surrender AK's passport as a condition of bail?

Then again, the discovery of Laurel's pregnancy in the ER is also suspect. I worked in an ER. If someone comes in with severe smoke inhalation/concussion and injuries from a home explosion, the last test they are going to do is a pregnancy test. They are going to stabilize the patient in order of need. Lungs, then bruises/concussion. In real life Laurel's pregnancy wouldn't have been discovered until she was out of the ER and up on the floor, which would have been ICU because she was intubated.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Milaxx

[secnarf]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

I can't comment on Supergirl or its fans since I've never seen the show, but I think recently a lot of shows and its fandoms caught a lot of rodiculous flack for criticism of an interracial couple when personally speaking I thought the couples in question just didnt have chemistry.

And the counterpoint to that is that your internal bias against interracial couples is the reason you don't think they have chemistry. I'm not saying I think this and I'm definitely not accusing you of this - I have just noticed that this is the counterargument that tends to be used. So, it's a circular discussion and never gets anywhere because the counterargument essentially says that you are wrong and your opinions are invalid/based in racism.

51 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I don't need accuracy. I just need logic. You can't arrest someone for a death that no one knows is a murder and a fire that no one knows is arson.

This is actually really interfering with my ability to understand the plot. It was unclear in the flash forwards why Annalise was arrested, though she seemed to know it was coming, but it hasn't gotten any clearer now that we have passed that point in the timeline. The K54 + Oliver/Bonnie are supposedly trying to free Annalise, but it's hard to follow when you don't get why she's locked up in the first place. The foundation of a good portion of the plot for this half of the season just doesn't hold up.

[Sake614]

Who is the actress playing Annalise's cell Mate? The one who gave her the razor blade? I know I've seen her before but can't place her and it's driving me crazy!

[Tiger]

5 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

Who is the actress playing Annalise's cell Mate? The one who gave her the razor blade? I know I've seen her before but can't place her and it's driving me crazy!

L. Scott Caldwell, probably best known for playing Rose on Lost.  Per IMDB she has a very extensive career in television, movies, and stage.  

Of note and related to this discussion of intterracial relationships, the producers of Lost wanted to do a lot more Rose and her husband Bernard because the audiance feedback to them as a couple and Rose individually, particularly her friendship with Jack, was overwhelmingly positive. But IIRC there was a lenghty period of time where Caldwell and Sam Anderson were either/both unavailable due to personal issues and other work.  

Edited February 5, 2017 by Tiger

[Milaxx]

3 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

Who is the actress playing Annalise's cell Mate? The one who gave her the razor blade? I know I've seen her before but can't place her and it's driving me crazy!

 L. Scott Caldwell - A wonderful character actress, most often recognized as Rose from LOST. FYI - AK's other cellmate also previously appeared with her in the movie Antone Fisher.

[Sake614]

Just now, Milaxx said:

Rose from LOST.

THAT'S IT! Thank you!!!! I adore her ?.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

I do like the idea of Laurel killing Wes, and I think they could make it work with the timeline. A lot of us seem to want all of the major characters to murder someone, and I feel like everyone should get at least one notch in their belt until other people start going back for seconds, so that would eliminate Frank, Bonnie, and Asher. My current theory is that it was an accident: Laurel and Wes got into it again, and she accidentally pushed him down the basement stairs (killing him before the fire). She runs down there to see if he's okay, Mystery Man runs out the storm door, and the house goes kaboom.

My only issue with this is that I don't think it works with the timeline. We see the house exploding mere seconds after Laurel enters. Is that really enough time for her to see Wes, get into another fight with him and push him down the stairs? I'm doubtful.

[Tiger]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

I think that the time might have been sped up or stretched out in that scene. I mean, do we know if we watched that moment happen in real time ? It might be the same sleight of hand they did when they showed Wes alive in the flash forward.

I thought Nate entered and left then Laural entered when it was daytime, then the house exploded at night?  

[secnarf]

4 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I thought Nate entered and left then Laural entered when it was daytime, then the house exploded at night?  

They definitely show Laurel entering at night - 10:xx pm (I can't remember the exact time but it is shown onscreen).

I'm not putting too much stock on the time we are shown elapsing from Laurel entering to the house exploding. It's like you see in TV/movies all the time when they have, say, one minute or ten seconds or whatever to do something or else bad things will happen. Usually each second lasts 2-3 real-time seconds.

[Milaxx]

5 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I thought Nate entered and left then Laural entered when it was daytime, then the house exploded at night?  

Yeah there's a time lapse in there. I'll rewatch ( I have Netflix for seasons 1 & 2 and DVR the current season until it goes to Netflix) and try and post it. I think Nate came and went hours before any of them.

[jhlipton]

Just now, Tiger said:

On the very related note of criticism of interracial relationships, I think it's terrible to assume someone criticizing an interracial couple because they are interracial.  

I think recently a lot of shows and its fandoms caught a lot of rodiculous flack for criticism of an interracial couple when personally speaking I thought the couples in question just didnt have chemistry.

First and foremost, let me emphasize that what follows does not apply to any specific person including @TIGER.

Systemic racism is, by it's nature, hard to spot and harder to overcome.   There is a lot of cultural bias as well as personal bias, as well as the natural instinct to counter "Not me! I'm not a racist!!!" when systemic racism is broached -- that difference between racist and racism.  [Note also applies to all the other -isms]

The saying "you have to work twice as hard for half the reward" certainly applies to "chemistry".

(Now pardon me while I mourn IchAbbie one more time...)

Just now, HunterHunted said:

At this point, I'm assuming that Atwood is working with a couple of precogs from Minority Report because that's the only way she can make half the arguments she's made without any evidence.

Well, Milauna Jemai Jackson, for all her faults, is a much better actress than Megan Goode!

[Nanrad]

7 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

The saying "you have to work twice as hard for half the reward" certainly applies to "chemistry".

Can you elaborate on this? Like do you mean as if "twice as hard" for people to even acknowledge they have chemistry? I'd definitely agree with it comes to interracial couples. Some just have it and others will deny it until their dying breath.

I personally didn't see it for Olitz (Olivia and Fitz from Scandal), but I see it for Richonne (Rick and Michonne), Bawson (Ginny Baker and Mike Lawson), and a few others. For me, it largely depends on the type of criticism being given about the ship. With Wes, I think he just bores me and can get annoying when in relationships that I just don't care who he's paired with. lol. Like, I didn't even care when he was with Meggy. But, Asher and Michaela are cute. And Sam and Annalise fascinated me. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I didn't even care when he was with Meggy.

Exactly, yes!. Not even with the black girl did I like him, it's Alfie, bless him, because he's adorable. Maybe if they had let Wes keep Alfie's accent and just change his background a bit, he would have come off sexier and had more chemistry with whomever. Also I wasn't feeling the chemistry between Michaela and Caleb, nor Michaela and Rebecca's foster brother and most definitely not Caleb. I hated that pairing and him being a serial killer didn't help. But even if he wasn't, didn't like it, no chemistry IMO. She has chemistry with Asher and Connor. 

Hell, Laurel and Michaela had more chemistry when they kissed than Wes did with Laurel, LOL. Poor Wes, damn.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

I gotta admit, none of Wes's pairings have worked for me. I saw a glimpse of potential for Waurel last season when the kissed in the car, but overall nothing.

[jhlipton]

Just now, Nanrad said:

Can you elaborate on this? Like do you mean as if "twice as hard" for people to even acknowledge they have chemistry? I'd definitely agree with it comes to interracial couples. Some just have it and others will deny it until their dying breath.

Yes, exactly.

Blacks (and especially black women) have to work twice as hard to be evaluated as half as good in general.  Megan Goode on Minority Report was hardly the world's greatest actress, but she was far better than many white actresses who have successful shows (Jaimie Alexander for one).

Edited February 6, 2017 by jhlipton

[pennben]

On 2/4/2017 at 10:15 PM, doram said:

I don't completely agree with ... well, many arguments brought up. I still think the "mystery" of Laurel's paternity was not something the show ever presented (at least not in the first half of the season which aired without viewer input, so to speak) and seemed more 'generated' by the audience to provide an alternative fact* to what seemed rather obvious once the Waurel relationship started.

I disagree.  I think they intentionally left a 'whose baby is it cliffhanger' over the first half of the season (they may not have known when they wrote that finale episode who the father was, so intentionally left options open).  I do believe they also intended to shut that down in the first episode out in the spring half of the season. However, this show is insane and tries to mislead us all of the time. So even though the creator has interviewed that "if you see it on the show, it's real", lots of conclusions we have been baited into having been "seen", haven't been as real as we were led to believe.  People don't always get pregnant from broken condoms and this is a "gotcha" show.

So while I do think the story means to tell us that Wes is the father, I also don't think folks who question it are necessarily racist (consciously or otherwise). And I do understand why folks can be frustrated when speculating on wild-ass theories on a wild-ass theory-generating show that they are going to be seen as racist or explained to why they, while not personally racist, seem racist because they don't accept without question that Wes is the father. 

Anyway, I don't know, but I've felt frustrated here in this episode thread discussing theories when we should be gleefully speculating about how batshit this all is and looking for the batshittiest solutions possible.  I also understand that folks have a different perspective, but when that seems to end at "well, you just aren't seeing what you are doing wrong", I don't see how a proper discussion is being had on the broader issues that aren't granular to an episode and I'm not sure the episode thread is where they should be had when they are not really relevant to the episode at hand. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by pennben

[pennben]

ETA: I just had a thought, its late, I know, are some folks viewing this as a 'shipper' war (these should be the OTP not them and all the trite 'shipper names' that follow...seriously "Waurel"??) versus some of us looking at this as a crime mystery to be solved? Are we talking past each other?

Edited February 6, 2017 by pennben

[Milaxx]

11 hours ago, pennben said:

ETA: I just had a thought, its late, I know, are some folks viewing this as a 'shipper' war (these should be the OTP not them and all the trite 'shipper names' that follow...seriously "Waurel"??) versus some of us looking at this as a crime mystery to be solved? Are we talking past each other?

I don't know if we're speaking past each other, but there are many overlapping reasons why this pairing in particular may or may not work for some. Besides the 2 you mentioned, there's also the Alfie fans who have loved him since he was on HP and felt he was the heart and center of the show.

As for the questioning of racial/cultural issues, that comes pretty much any show under the Shondaland umbrella. They are almost always going to feature multi-cultural cast with LGBTQ cast and characters. I think it's intentional on the part of the writer's and showrunners to make us the viewing audience question and examine how we perceive these things and perhaps learn a little something.

Personally I think show often waivers between procedural show, whodunit mystery and drama, depending on the day. I think the show often says or does  things to get a discussion going but it  depends on our own personal baggage as to what sparks our attention. 

[Milaxx]

14 hours ago, pennben said:

I don't see how a proper discussion is being had on the broader issues that aren't granular to an episode and I'm not sure the episode thread is where they should be had when they are not really relevant to the episode at hand.

I'll respond to this in the Small Talk thread.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Milaxx

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Things Get Hairy For Annalise On How To Get Away With Murder

Tonsorial symbol alert!

[Tiger]

19 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Can you elaborate on this? Like do you mean as if "twice as hard" for people to even acknowledge they have chemistry? I'd definitely agree with it comes to interracial couples. Some just have it and others will deny it until their dying breath.

I personally didn't see it for Olitz (Olivia and Fitz from Scandal), but I see it for Richonne (Rick and Michonne), Bawson (Ginny Baker and Mike Lawson), and a few others. For me, it largely depends on the type of criticism being given about the ship. With Wes, I think he just bores me and can get annoying when in relationships that I just don't care who he's paired with. lol. Like, I didn't even care when he was with Meggy. But, Asher and Michaela are cute. And Sam and Annalise fascinated me. 

Look, perception of chemistry is very subjective and ultimately pairings have to live and die on their own merit.  Some actors are chemistry machines that seem to generate chemistry with everyone, whereas others can't generate chemistry with anyone.  

And I think we have two examples of these extremes on this show with Viola and Alfred.  She generates chemistry with everyone, even Jennifer Lopez in that Lifetime movie.  He, not so much.  I think he and the Laural actress had "it" last season and early in the fall, but lost "it" at some point.  

As I earlier, people loved L. Scott Caldwell as Rose on Lost because she had "it", alebit different kinds with Matthew Fox and Sam Anderson.  And I recently saw her in a movie on HBO where in two or three opposite Charles Dutton had "it" with him too.  

Contrast that to KJ Apa, who I think is hot as ####, between a recent movie and his tv show I dont think he has generated any chemistry with four (potential) love interests.  Is thag opinion come with a racial basis because he's a white-looking, half-white/half-Samoan, and I'm a white-looking Cuban.

Basically, I think that by accusing anyone, a fandom, whatever of not liking a pairing or not seeing chemistry because of some racial issue is making some extremely ugly allegations.

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Personally I think show often waivers between procedural show, whodunit mystery and drama, depending on the day. 

More "by the minute"!

[Aquarius97]

I know this has nothing to do with this episode, but I'm re-watching the show, and I wonder if someone did notice about the Mahoney's case (the one with Wes' mother involved) was mentioned a few episode earlier in that season. I mean, we suppousely first know about it in the second half of the second season, but in 2x06, Annalise talks about the case and ask Asher (right after he saw Bonnie's video with his father) about the veredict

[Dejana]

The speculation about Frank still possibly being the father reminds me one particular baby storyline on Mad Men. There was a bit of intentional misdirection early on that was resolved within the same season, but not to the satisfaction of some fans who literally spent years demanding the storyline to play out onscreen the way it had in their heads. You could tell that after a while, the mods on MM forums just wanted to post a big disclaimer that the storyline was done and dusted and to let it go, already! And HTGAWM is a much less straightforward, linear show than that one, I mean, we had fans second guessing if Annalise really made a cobbler, or if Sam died in some other way after Wes's blow to the head, so it doesn't surprise me that a pregnancy might lead to all kinds theorizing or belief that the truth is not what it seems. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Dejana

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, Aquarius97 said:

I know this has nothing to do with this episode, but I'm re-watching the show, and I wonder if someone did notice about the Mahoney's case (the one with Wes' mother involved) was mentioned a few episode earlier in that season. I mean, we suppousely first know about it in the second half of the second season, but in 2x06, Annalise talks about the case and ask Asher (right after he saw Bonnie's video with his father) about the veredict

I'm not sure what you're asking, but it's perfectly fine to post in the 2x6 episode thread. In fact there might be something in that thread to answer your question.

[Keepitmoving]

They just completed their third semester right?  Have they now completed a year and a half of law school? Or does this season complete their second year?

[Tiger]

29 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

They just completed their third semester right?  Have they now completed a year and a half of law school? Or does this season complete their second year?

Its been approx 10 weeks since the start of their second year fall semester, so end of Oct/beginning of Nov-ish.

[DearEvette]

On 2/6/2017 at 2:02 AM, pennben said:

ETA: I just had a thought, its late, I know, are some folks viewing this as a 'shipper' war (these should be the OTP not them and all the trite 'shipper names' that follow...seriously "Waurel"??) versus some of us looking at this as a crime mystery to be solved? Are we talking past each other?

I don't see this as a 'shipper show.' To me, it is a suspense/mystery show.  But it is also a show with a small, tight-knit group.  So It is natural that people in that group create connections otherwise they'd become nothing but a toxic bunch who are always watching their backs.  While that could be mined for drama for awhile, it would be exhausting, imo, to maintain in the long haul.  And it isn't  cookie-cutter CBS procedural where the people feel like card boards.  There is a soapy elements amongst the drama.

So in I can see why we can watch the show for the mystery/drama and also root for relationships based on personalities and interactions of the group dynamic.  I actively root for Connor and Michaela's friendship because I see the possibilities in it, the writing set it up and the actors sell it.  Conversely I would have never thought of pairing Asher with anyone.  I  didn't think he had any chemistry with Bonnie (but I do appreciate how important that relationship became in the larger story once Asher ran over ADA Smugface because Bonnie was uniquely positioned to be the one to help him) -- but I think he and Michaela are perfect together.  I thought (and still do think) that Laurel and Frank had some great chemistry.  I was not feeling her and Wes at all, except for a very brief time for a couple of episodes early this season. It feels to me like the Wes/Laurel pairing was made for pure plot purposes regardless of the actor's chemistry, where the Asher/Michaela pairing was probably just a lark, but the show unknowingly hit gold with them.

17 hours ago, Tiger said:

Basically, I think that by accusing anyone, a fandom, whatever of not liking a pairing or not seeing chemistry because of some racial issue is making some extremely ugly allegations.

I would tend to agree with this on the whole.  But this isn't really something that comes out of thin air.  There has been a lot of discussion, articles, blogs and think pieces about the concept of subconscious bias is shipper/fandoms for years.  Yes, chemistry is very subjective and you like who you like, but subjective bias is very real and it would be unrealistic to think it doesn't creep into fandoms especially in the area of romance. 

[darkestboy]

Wait a second, are they saying Bonnie killed Wes? Well, she has the form for it but maybe another mislead there.

Frank definitely didn't do it. The flashbacks and his actions in the present day seem to point towards his innocence as well.

I felt bad for Annalise this week so it really does seem like she's up the creek for the time being. Loving her cellmates though.

Michaela had her moments in this one. I liked her scenes with Oliver and Hargrove and there was some sweet scenes with Michaela/Asher and Connor/Oliver this week.

The gang watching The Golden Girls was another little moment I enjoyed in this one, 8/10

[helenamonster]

13 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

They just completed their third semester right?  Have they now completed a year and a half of law school? Or does this season complete their second year?

I've been wondering this too. I'm usually good with keeping up on a timeline of a show when it doesn't correspond with our real-life timeline, but this show lost me a bit between the first and second halves of this season. I can't remember, were they taking their midterms or finals in the episode where Wes died? It was finals, right? And I'm assuming everything that's happening now is happening in the immediate days following Wes's death, which means it's just the beginning of the winter break (probably still before Christmas) of 2015, as they haven't been to class and haven't been show to be worrying about missing anything.

So, okay, my guess is it's mid-December 2015. And I don't know if they'll end their second year with this season. They seem to be doing two seasons per year, which would give them six seasons where the K5/K4 are still in school. Whether the show will continue beyond their graduation is probably up in the air at this point.

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, darkestboy said:

 

Wait a second, are they saying Bonnie killed Wes? Well, she has the form for it but maybe another mislead there.

 

At this point the list as to who killed Wes is fairly long. To the best of my knowledge it could be:

Laurel (accidently)

Frank

Oliver

Simon

The Mahoney's

Hannah Keating

Sam's first wife

Catherine Hapstal

Levi aka Eggs911

creepy Philip

Nate, or any other random skeleton the writer's decide to drag out of Annalise's closet. At this point I'm going to stop second guessing and sit back and see how this plays out.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

10 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I've been wondering this too. I'm usually good with keeping up on a timeline of a show when it doesn't correspond with our real-life timeline, but this show lost me a bit between the first and second halves of this season. I can't remember, were they taking their midterms or finals in the episode where Wes died? It was finals, right? And I'm assuming everything that's happening now is happening in the immediate days following Wes's death, which means it's just the beginning of the winter break (probably still before Christmas) of 2015, as they haven't been to class and haven't been show to be worrying about missing anything.

So, okay, my guess is it's mid-December 2015. And I don't know if they'll end their second year with this season. They seem to be doing two seasons per year, which would give them six seasons where the K5/K4 are still in school. Whether the show will continue beyond their graduation is probably up in the air at this point.

You are right. Sam was killed during bonfire night which was midterms (2014) . They just completed their second year midterms the night of the house fire. That's why Oliver says something to Connor about him coming over wasted the previous year when they were celebrating this year.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Milaxx

[tvfanatic13]

Did I miss the reason that AK cut her hair off? Is it just so that she doesn't have to spend any more time than necessary in the shower?

[Dejana]

20 minutes ago, tvfanatic13 said:

Did I miss the reason that AK cut her hair off? Is it just so that she doesn't have to spend any more time than necessary in the shower?

The sewed in hair was starting to look matted...extensions have a shelf life even under the best maintenance, let alone jail (prison?) circumstances. The hair was also a signifier of Annalise coming from a different world than the other women inside, which added to their resentment toward her.

[Keepitmoving]

32 minutes ago, tvfanatic13 said:

Did I miss the reason that AK cut her hair off? Is it just so that she doesn't have to spend any more time than necessary in the shower?

 I think the hair is an annoyance that she can't afford right now. As in, she might as well cut it off before it gets pulled out by the "welcoming committee" along with pieces of her scalp.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[pennben]

I still believe that she got some hair/DNA when she grabbed at the prosecutor  right before she cut it off and hid it in the weave until such time as she can sneak it out to have it tested or planted, as necessary

Edited February 7, 2017 by pennben

[Keepitmoving]

All I know is that when all is said and done, Norwalk better tie this shit together as in Atwood better have some backstory or it better be Sam's sister or exwife pulling the strings. Because it just doesn't make sense to me that Anna should be this much of an enemy that the DA would go after her like this unless it's personal, like long history personal. Not I want her man personal. Hell, they never explained/showed me why Sinclair was so hard up, her hate I just didn't get and it was never explained why she was going so hard after Anna. Atwood has that "single white female" vibe to her and they need to address this before they kill her. And they do need to kill her. At this point, I hope it's not he Mahoney's because that's way too obvious and boring, unless they teamed up with Sam's sister.

[possibilities]

On 2/4/2017 at 6:14 PM, Milaxx said:

I still like Connor. I also still like Oliver. In fact as dysfunctional and codependent as they are, I still like them as a couple.

Me, too. I don't claim to be right, I'm just saying that's where I'm at. I also never hated Rebecca or Wes. My most hated character was Sam, by a thousand miles. If we exclude him, my most hated character is Laurel. I have not been able to stand her since season 1.

I also feel annoyed by Nate because, while he's an amazing piece of sculpture, I think he's badly written and acted kind of blandly. He sent Rebecca to steal from Sam-- which was stupid and dangerous. He never seems to know what he really wants and is always ping ponging back and forth between ride or die loyalty to Anna and utter hatred of her. I feel like they never really give us a look inside his head, it's all just his glistening surface and rock hard glare. I don't hate him, but I hate how he's written because I think it's a cut below the writing of anyone else on the show.

Regarding Whodunnit, I think if Anna killed Wes, it would be the most shocking, and we don't really know what she was doing between when she said to go to her house and when the body was found/house exploded, so it seems possible in the sense of "hasn't been shown otherwise". I remember a lot of us were speculating that her wail of grief when she saw Wes under the sheet was acting. I'm not saying she did it. But it would be the most shocking if she did.

Also, if she told them to go to her house at around 4, and didn't get there herself til 10, that's odd.

I agree that no report about the fire is annoying. But I do think it's possible that if it was a clearly rigged explosion, it might not have taken a long time to determine the cause, and that it was arson. They should have told us, if that's the case, but it could have been obvious, especially if whoever did it was trying to send a message and cause fear. Or frame Anna for the corpse of Wes. That kind of arsonist would rig a very obvious bomb, not try to make it look like an accident.

Laurel is an interesting theory. I think she's capable of anything. But if Laurel accidentally killed Wes, it wouldn't be murder, would it? Manslaughter, maybe. That's the only reason I find that theory unsatisfying.

[Tiger]

18 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Me, too. I don't claim to be right, I'm just saying that's where I'm at. I also never hated Rebecca or Wes. My most hated character was Sam, by a thousand miles. If we exclude him, my most hated character is Laurel. I have not been able to stand her since season 1.

I also feel annoyed by Nate because, while he's an amazing piece of sculpture, I think he's badly written and acted kind of blandly. He sent Rebecca to steal from Sam-- which was stupid and dangerous. He never seems to know what he really wants and is always ping ponging back and forth between ride or die loyalty to Anna and utter hatred of her. I feel like they never really give us a look inside his head, it's all just his glistening surface and rock hard glare. I don't hate him, but I hate how he's written because I think it's a cut below the writing of anyone else on the show.

Regarding Whodunnit, I think if Anna killed Wes, it would be the most shocking, and we don't really know what she was doing between when she said to go to her house and when the body was found/house exploded, so it seems possible in the sense of "hasn't been shown otherwise". I remember a lot of us were speculating that her wail of grief when she saw Wes under the sheet was acting. I'm not saying she did it. But it would be the most shocking if she did.

Also, if she told them to go to her house at around 4, and didn't get there herself til 10, that's odd.

I agree that no report about the fire is annoying. But I do think it's possible that if it was a clearly rigged explosion, it might not have taken a long time to determine the cause, and that it was arson. They should have told us, if that's the case, but it could have been obvious, especially if whoever did it was trying to send a message and cause fear. Or frame Anna for the corpse of Wes. That kind of arsonist would rig a very obvious bomb, not try to make it look like an accident.

Laurel is an interesting theory. I think she's capable of anything. But if Laurel accidentally killed Wes, it wouldn't be murder, would it? Manslaughter, maybe. That's the only reason I find that theory unsatisfying.

I am wondering if Annalise was the mole/informant but gave the DA real and fake evidence, and planned to effectively create a double jeopardy situation wherein the fake evidence would exonerate her, but the DA then could never prosecute her for the crimes again.  

I think Annalise may have also set the house on fire and again effectively snitched on herself, but then someone murdered Wes and fucked up her plan.  

As for who killed Wes, my money is still on Asher or Laural.

[Keepitmoving]

That bottle of vodka blew up the house, it fell into the fire place; because they sure did take more than a moment to show her place that bottle on top of the fire place. I know when I saw the camera linger there a bit, I though to myself, is that bottle going to be used to hit someone over the head? Like why do they need to show her putting that bottle above the fire place? It was weird to me.

Although, one might have a point that she burned it down on purpose because didn't she joke about that with Eve during their final goodbye? She did right? Because that was when she was on suspension and she was talking about her finances with Eve and made some crack about burning it down for the insurance money. Or was that Eve's suggestion? Either way, I thought they discussed it, jokingly, but discussed it nonetheless.

You know this show does do quite a bit of foreshadowing. They even foreshadowed Laurel being pregnant of course it was presumed that it would be Frank's. And who knows maybe it still is his, but the pregnancy was foreshadowed.  They mentioned something about her being pregnant with Frank's baby at the beginning of the season, I think. It was while they were at Oliver's studying.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

5 hours ago, tvfanatic13 said:

Did I miss the reason that AK cut her hair off? Is it just so that she doesn't have to spend any more time than necessary in the shower?

Also stripped down, unadorned AK is AK at her most real, basic level.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I have this strong feeling that Annalise set her house on fire. I think her sense of utter defeat when she was arrested is not just losing her power / grief from Wes's death but she also feels guilt - and not just guilt for bringing him into her life, his mother, etc. but guilt for contributing towards his death. 

The problem with her setting her house on fire is the timeline, if that was her plan, then why did she call Wes and Laurel telling them and the rest of the Keatings to meet her at the house?  I mean, then that looks like she was purposely trying to kill them. I don't know what time she wakes up from her long nap at Bonnie's, but seems like she makes the calls to Wes/Laurel before leaving Bonnie's, and the next time we see her I believe she's with Oliver right? I forgot what she was trying to convince him to do at the time, I think I remember her bringing up Connor to Oliver.

I mean if she burned down that house she did so knowing that she called her little Keatings and her favorite puppy Wes over to that house.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

I think we have 2, maybe 3 separate events occurring that are the manipulations of 2 or more entities. I could see AK burning her own house., perhaps to spite Hannah I honestly don't  see AK killing Wes, but if we wanted to add Asher to the pile of suspects, I wouldn't be surprised. Then there's the personal vendetta via the DA's office into AK that has been ongoing since Sams death/Sinclair.

The of a official fire report still bugs because everything seems to hinge on it. Those detectives showed up immediately and arrested her on the spot for Arson and First degree based on a "tip from an anonymous caller". AK is supposed to be a big deal on Middleton campus and in the Philadelphia area. Laurel and Micheala came to Middleton because of her. You don't come after someone like that without ALL your T's crossed and I's dotted.  So they lock her up based on an anonymous call, then refuse her bail on a so called informant who told them NOTHING and then sneaks out of the police department. Come on! We should have a fire report, telling us what caused the fire and some sort of evidence linking AK and/or associates with purchasing whatever incendiary devices were used. They don't have so much as a finger print and yet AK is sitting in cell block H with hard core prisoners. Look, I was able to swallow Philip leap out from under Wes bed and tackled AK just so he could give her a thumb drive proving Caleb killed his parents, but this whole prison story line is a really big ask.

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I also feel annoyed by Nate because, while he's an amazing piece of sculpture, I think he's badly written and acted kind of blandly. He sent Rebecca to steal from Sam-- which was stupid and dangerous. He never seems to know what he really wants and is always ping ponging back and forth between ride or die loyalty to Anna and utter hatred of her. I feel like they never really give us a look inside his head, it's all just his glistening surface and rock hard glare. I don't hate him, but I hate how he's written because I think it's a cut below the writing of anyone else on the show.

ALL OF THIS^^^ Billy Brown is pretty to look at, but the character is much too wishy washy. 

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

The problem with her setting her house on fire is the timeline, if that was her plan, then why did she call Wes and Laurel telling them and the rest of the Keatings to meet her at the house?  I mean, then that looks like she was purposely trying to kill them. I don't know what time she wakes up from her long nap at Bonnie's, but seems like she makes the calls to Wes/Laurel before leaving Bonnie's, and the next time we see her I believe she's with Oliver right? I forgot what she was trying to convince him to do at the time, I think I remember her bringing up Connor to Oliver.

I mean if she burned down that house she did so knowing that she called her little Keatings and her favorite puppy Wes over to that house.

I just watched this earlier today. (I needed a distraction from the news, I'm an educator). She left Bonnie's and called Oliver.  She told him to meet her at the computer lab. Then she called Laurel and tells her to gather the others. Asher is too drunk, Micheala is with her mom and Connor is off having sex with Thomas. She calls Wes, but he's at the police department and doesn't pick up. Frank supposedly wanted to take him to see AK but Wes got out of the car and said he was going back to the police station. So I guess the question still remains, "What happened to Wes after he got out of Franks's car?" 

So is this could be another Hapstal mansion mess where she wanted them to arrive and find the house burning. I know that sounds kinda crazy and improbable but this show appear to like crazy and improbable.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Milaxx

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

We should have a fire report, telling us what caused the fire and some sort of evidence linking AK and/or associates with purchasing whatever incendiary devices were used. They don't have so much as a finger print and yet AK is sitting in cell block H with hard core prisoners

This is my problem with Shondaland shows, and it takes away from how great they could truly be, the quality. They hire some great actors, some actors with potential and you get to watch them grow as actors. The characters are great on the page and come to life because of these actors.  It's the actors who get me hooked, but the follow through with the writing that's all on TPTB behind the scenes and they screw it up all the time. You wait and think, they'll tie it all  together. You think OK, they'll circle back from time to time on characters' back stories because um, I still have tons of freaking questions and um, wouldn't it make sense for a mother, father, someone from home to show up right about now.  You hope for some holes to get filled in and some explanations to come so that things don't seem so unrealistic but that time NEVER comes and in the end it looks like lazy writing to this viewer. It doesn't look like oh well, we don't want to spoon feed the viewer. Nope, I know when I'm being spoon fed vs. this shit just doesn't make sense and is an insult to my intelligence.  Maybe this show will be different, I'm waiting. Do the work and put in the detail, it matters, big time.  

Edited February 8, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[helenamonster]

13 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

That bottle of vodka blew up the house, it fell into the fire place; because they sure did take more than a moment to show her place that bottle on top of the fire place. I know when I saw the camera linger there a bit, I though to myself, is that bottle going to be used to hit someone over the head? Like why do they need to show her putting that bottle above the fire place? It was weird to me.

Although, one might have a point that she burned it down on purpose because didn't she joke about that with Eve during their final goodbye? She did right? Because that was when she was on suspension and she was talking about her finances with Eve and made some crack about burning it down for the insurance money. Or was that Eve's suggestion? Either way, I thought they discussed it, jokingly, but discussed it nonetheless.

You know this show does do quite a bit of foreshadowing. They even foreshadowed Laurel being pregnant of course it was presumed that it would be Frank's. And who knows maybe it still is his, but the pregnancy was foreshadowed.  They mentioned something about her being pregnant with Frank's baby at the beginning of the season, I think. It was while they were at Oliver's studying.

I think the bottle on top of the fireplace was supposed to be a red herring. I remember at the time thinking that the fire might end up being an accident, perhaps with Annalise leaving the house drunk and the fireplace not being completely extinguished, then maybe knocking over the vodka bottle on her way out the door. But now that we're past it, I think it was just supposed to build suspense. We knew a fire was coming and it was supposed to make us think for a second that it was Annalise who accidentally started it. But by the time Nate got to the house the fireplace was well extinguished.

I agree with others that Nate is just not doing it for me. It seems like they haven't really known what to do with him since the first half of the first season. It's a shame because I enjoyed Billy Brown on Sons of Anarchy (as much as one could enjoy anything in that show's later seasons).

[harmfulhazards]

15 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

That bottle of vodka blew up the house, it fell into the fire place; because they sure did take more than a moment to show her place that bottle on top of the fire place. I know when I saw the camera linger there a bit, I though to myself, is that bottle going to be used to hit someone over the head? Like why do they need to show her putting that bottle above the fire place? It was weird to me.

While TV often disregards the laws of physics, a bottle of vodka capable of blowing up the entire house is something out of science fiction.  I'm not even sure that the whole truck of them could do that. It was shown before we saw the explosion, wasn't it? If so, it was definitely a red herring.

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, harmfulhazards said:

While TV often disregards the laws of physics, a bottle of vodka capable of blowing up the entire house is something out of science fiction.  I'm not even sure that the whole truck of them could do that. It was shown before we saw the explosion, wasn't it? If so, it was definitely a red herring.

Shame  Mythbusters is no longer in production.

*****

So AK called Oliver and had him meet him at the computer lab. She asked him to jack the DA. When Bonnie meets with the K4 she asks Connor to call Oliver. He balks and she says, "He did it for her once before." Yet after Connor let's everyone know Oliver knows about Sam & they confront him and have him hack again. Suddenly he knows ALL the things the DA's office has on AK . So what did he find before? Was he just pretending to be upset?

[rubinia]

On 2/7/2017 at 9:42 PM, Milaxx said:

Also stripped down, unadorned AK is AK at her most real, basic level.

I took the weave cutting as AK shredding her last semblance of living as a rich, classy lady. There were a couple of mentions of her weave--the cellmate mentions it, as do the women in the shower. By cutting the weave out, she's saying, "I truly am as low as the rest of the people in here."

Cutting one's hair is also commonly used as symbolism for penance. Think of the orders of nuns that shave their heads before they take their final vows.

Edited February 10, 2017 by rubinia

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, rubinia said:

I took the weave cutting as AK shredding her last semblance of living as a rich, classy lady. There were a couple of mentions of her weave--the cellmate mentions it, as do the women in the shower. By cutting the weave out, she's saying, "I truly am as low as the rest of the people in here."

Cutting one's hair is also commonly used as symbolism for penance. Think of the orders of nuns that shave their heads before they take their finals vows.

I feel like they were trying to echo her "unmasking" wig reveal from season 1. That's not to say the other reasons folks cited are incorrect, but at the heart of it, stripped down AK is Anna Mae at her most basic, this is who I really am level. Not just rich vs poor, but Anna Mae without all the accouterments that she uses to project an image to the world.