Anyone else feel different about Friends now...

[neverclearone]

Suddenly after watching episodes over and over some things and some of the "Friends" are annoying me.  Like last night it was when Monica and Richard were dating and Ross and Rachael were together.  Why did the women supply the condoms?  Both of the men are making considerable more money than the women.  Why was it on them to supply the condoms?

Phoebe is just annoying in general.  

There's more but just to start off.  Or is it the change of the world in general?  Or has my attitude soured?

Edited January 30, 2017 by neverclearone
Spelling

[marshmallow]

I think it's more of a change in the world, along with all of us watchers maturing a bit!  I remember thinking all the "fat Monica" and "Chandler is gay" jokes were funny at the time, but now I just cringe.  I don't think those jokes would fly in today's sitcoms.  I was team Ross/Rachel during the show's run, but on rewatch I think Ross is an asshole towards her, especially when he belittles her career.

The first few seasons of Chandler annoy me now too, and he's my favorite of the guys.  His sarcastic comments felt forced to me in the early seasons, and I thought his delivery was stiff, but they seemed to flesh out his character a little more, and the jokes felt more natural.

I agree about the condoms too.  And why keep them in the bathroom?  It seems silly to have to run to the bathroom at the last second to grab one.

[chitowngirl]

I always thought it was kind of weird that Ross and Monica would be in adjoining bedrooms and could hear each other having sex.  Go to Ross'! Go to Richard's!

That said, you can watch Friends 6 hours a day! 2 hours on TBS in the afternoon, 2 hours on MTV in the early evening and 2 hours on Nick late evening!

[neverclearone]

Yes, yes , yes about Ross!  Just watched where he sent all those valentines type stuff and the quartet.  I just wanted to wring his neck.  But then, he is going to a play date with a stripper and she is not supposed to bothered by it.  Granted the dude at work was trying to "get with her."  But trust her enough to deal with it on her own.   I still laugh at some of the stuff but some of it just pisses me off now.  I know it's a show, but I  think as time has passed, it's just like "really, whatever?"

I watch in now on Netflix mostly (my go to sleep show.)

[hnygrl]

YES!!! WE WERE ON A BREAK!!!! That bothers the hell out of me now! Back in the day I agreed with Ross, but with age and maturity I want to slap Ross upside the head with a cast iron skillet.

This woman, supposedly the only woman for you. THE woman whom you've been pining over, in love with, comparing every other woman on earth to, is finally yours. Finally. And you two, being young and stupid, have a stupid "let's break up" fight that anybody over the age of 32 knows isn't a really real break up fight.

And the first thing you do? THE FIRST THING YOU DO is NOT get drunk and go beg her to take you back but bang another chick? That's the FIRST thing you do? Damn dude, your love don't run very deep do it?

I used to think of Ross as kind of a lovable loser. Now? 20 something years later? He's a dick. A pretentious, know-it-all douche nozzle of a jerk face. He's got a PhD but still hangs out with his little sister and her friends. Kinda icky.

[chitowngirl]

16 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

I used to think of Ross as kind of a lovable loser. Now? 20 something years later? He's a dick. A pretentious, know-it-all douche nozzle of a jerk face. He's got a PhD but still hangs out with his little sister and her friends. Kinda icky.

To be fair, Chandler was his friend. So he's hanging out with his friend who lives across the hall from his sister. But I agree with everything else about Ross. So, in my little world, Ross and/or Monica let Chander know there was a vacancy in the building.

[lilabennet]

I was too young to watch this when it first aired, but I am binging it on Netflix now.  I went into the show having already decided that I wouldn't care about the whole Ross and Rachel saga, and I am loving the show so far.  I can't handle will they/won't they couples angst, so making that decision means that I will actually make it all the way through the show.  I find that I care more about Monica and Chandler, and I think I would have even if I had watched the show as it was airing.  I think they are more believable as a couple than Ross and Rachel, because they actually care about each others' feelings and did so from the start, even when they were just friends.  I think both Ross and Rachel are very selfish people and annoying in different ways.

[Madding crowd]

Friends is still one of my favorite shows and I watch an episode or two before bed every night. The whole Ross/Rachel thing never bothered me and still doesn't. Honestly, if someone tells me we are through, what I do after that is none of their business. Not to say I would sleep with someone else the same night, but to me a break-up is a break-up. I think the real reason it doesn't bother me is the whole storyline never really jelled with me. I don't think Ross would be attracted to Belly Button ring girl and I don't think she would be attracted to him. Also, Ross wasn't a sleeping around kind of guy. The whole story was just not working for me.

One thing that bothered me then and still does is Phoebe making threats of physical harm to the other friends. She does it especially to Ross even though he was always nice to her, even buying her the bike she never had. I just don't find anything funny about threatening to beat people up. She did it many times to all of the friends except Joey I think. I really hated it when Chandler went missing the night before his wedding and she told Ross "If you don't find Chandler, I'm going to kick your ass". It wasn't Ross' fault that Chandler was gone. Of course I never much believed the rest of them would be friends with Phoebe anyway, but I didn't like them always being scared of her, I wouldn't be friends with someone I was scared of. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Honestly, if someone tells me we are through, what I do after that is none of their business. Not to say I would sleep with someone else the same night, but to me a break-up is a break-up

This was one of my biggest problems with the show.  I didn't watch it when it was originally on, but watching it later more marathon style, you just get beat over the head with this so many times.  I wonder if it was less annoying when you had a week or more between episodes to hear the same tired argument about how they weren't broken up, they were just on a break.

[Cquen82]

On 2017-02-01 at 0:42 PM, hnygrl said:

I used to think of Ross as kind of a lovable loser. Now? 20 something years later? He's a dick. A pretentious, know-it-all douche nozzle of a jerk face. He's got a PhD but still hangs out with his little sister and her friends. Kinda icky.

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I couldn't stand the relationship between Ross and Monica at all this watch around. The cuddling, massaging, sitting close together, discussing intimate details of their personal lives. Every once in a while he would throw in a "gross, that's my sister" but mostly nobody said anything like that.

[WendyCR72]

I always liked Chandler/Monica better than Ross/Rachel, anyway.

My feelings really have not changed as my opinions have basically held, at least where Ross/Rachel are concerned. Never thought they fit, and I still think they would have split again after Rachel got off the plane.

But Early Phoebe and Later Phoebe...I got why they all hung with flaky, hippie Early Phoebe, but Later Phoebe reminded me of AU Phoebe from the episode where Fat Monica and Dork Chandler got together, and it carried over to "Real" Phoebe. She just became mean for mean's sake. As for Monica, she was also warped, with her OCD amped up to a BILLION, and I'll freely admit she could be insufferable depending on the episode, but for me, she was still sort of redeemed because I did buy it came from wanting to please too much or needing her way because of said OCD (and growing up with a mom that always seemed to take jabs at her probably didn't help!), and I still bought her love for Chandler, so I still had a shred of understanding/sympathy for her. But her brother? Ross was just a douche by the end, and Rachel was stuck in "I don't want Ross until Ross has someone else!" and THAT got old in S4, so...yeah.

As for Joey, he still kept his overall good guy vibe, but by the end, I'm shocked he was even able to tie his own shoelaces. Joey had a street smart vibe early on (and I loved scenes with his mom played by Brenda Vaccaro!) that totally vanished by the end.

God, this makes it sound like I hate the show now, and I don't! But as I said, the characters did change, but it's still comfort-food in TV form for me.

[Guest]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:55 AM, WendyCR72 said:

But Early Phoebe and Later Phoebe...I got why they all hung with flaky, hippie Early Phoebe, but Later Phoebe reminded me of AU Phoebe from the episode where Fat Monica and Dork Chandler got together, and it carried over to "Real" Phoebe. She just became mean for mean's sake. As for Monica, she was also warped, with her OCD amped up to a BILLION, and I'll freely admit she could be insufferable depending on the episode, but for me, she was still sort of redeemed because I did buy it came from wanting to please too much or needing her way because of said OCD (and growing up with a mom that always seemed to take jabs at her probably didn't help!), and I still bought her love for Chandler, so I still had a shred of understanding/sympathy for her. But her brother? Ross was just a douche by the end, and Rachel was stuck in "I don't want Ross until Ross has someone else!" and THAT got old in S4, so...yeah.

As for Joey, he still kept his overall good guy vibe, but by the end, I'm shocked he was even able to tie his own shoelaces. Joey had a street smart vibe early on (and I loved scenes with his mom played by Brenda Vaccaro!) that totally vanished by the end.

All of these different characterizations make me feel like the writers fell into the trap of "Hey, that characteristic was funny once! Let's exaggerate it constantly til it isn't funny at all!"  It's a common problem in sitcoms, I think.

[neverclearone]

Yeah I love Monica and  Chandler more as I have gotten older. I think Chandler is my favorite followed by Monica. Then it's hard to choose. I think Phobe always comes in last. I always thought she was mean. Thank God for Mike, he kind of smoothes her ridiculousness out. 

I think I am embarrassed how many times I have watched these shows over and over again. 

[brinpol]

Quote

All of these different characterizations make me feel like the writers fell into the trap of "Hey, that characteristic was funny once! Let's exaggerate it constantly til it isn't funny at all!"  It's a common problem in sitcoms, I think.

That happens on many shows (see The Golden Girls or Seinfeld as two examples) where the characters become something of exaggerated caricatures of themselves later on in the shows run. Lazy writing more than anything else.

With that said...I still love this show. Seasons 3 to 6, and probably 8, are still my favorites. Loved it then, love it now.

And I don't see Ross too differently today because I always thought he could be kind of a jerk during the original run of the show (of course, he was a nice guy and was there for his friends when it counted, so he has that going for him at least).

[princelina]

Phoebe was always my least favorite Friend, but now I find myself kind of hating her.  And also hating their kissybutt attitude towards her whenever she's acting like an unreasonable bitch.

On the other hand, the one who has grown on me over the years is Ross - not so much the character, but how funny David S is in portraying him - like when he catches himself in the middle of acting like an ass, draws his whole body up with his nose in the air, and stalks away.  Now that I have no investment in "what's going to happen" the quirks and mannerisms he gives to Ross really tickle me.

As for the jokes that are kind of outdated - much like in Laverne and Shirley, I find some eyeball rolling and others still funny, just because they are :)

[supposebly]

There are a few that make me cringe a bit these days although parts are still hilarious.

The scene where Chandler is upset about Joey's tailor (how could Joey afford a tailor anyway?) and it's played for laughs. I don't really think it's funny.

But Ross' face during and after Joey's explanation as to how tailors measure pants still cracks me up every time.

Joey: Ross, will you tell him. Isn't that how a tailor measures pants?

Ross: yes, yes it is. IN PRISON!!!

I will always love David Schwimmer's Ross. Even though that character was often a whiny ass, Schwimmer made him so incredibly funny.

Edited March 17, 2017 by supposebly
I can't place adverbs properly

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was never a Ross/Rachel shipper during the original run of the show. I used to watch the reruns on various channels because the show is like comfort food for me too. But now that I've been rewatching the entire series in chronological order on Netflix, I dislike Ross even more.

First he spent the first season moping about how he liked Rachel, getting ridiculously jealous and possessive of her, but never actually asking her out. Shit or get off the pot, man. If you're not going to ask her out then you have no right to get so irrationally jealous of every guy she dates.

The only reason they ended up dating was not because Ross ever had the balls to ask her out but because Chandler let it slip that Ross was in love with her and then she went chasing after him at the airport. Granted, Rachel was jealous of Julie because she was the big roadblock to Ross, but at least she wasn't constantly rude to Julie (unlike Ross who didn't even try to hide his disdain for Paolo during S1).

When Rachel got drunk and left that message for Ross about how she was over him, he had the nerve to get mad at her. When he made that terrible pros/cons list and she found it, he then acted like HE was the victim.

When they finally started dating, he belittled her career. He resented when she had to work late, completely disregarding the fact that we saw him getting phone calls from the museum in the evenings on multiple occasions and that a "museum emergency" required him to go back to the museum the night of their first date, none of which she ever complained about. He completely disregarded her boundaries time after time, sending flowers and teddy bears and barbershop quartets to her AT WORK, not to mention dropping by unannounced to check up on her (and Mark). When she told him that she had to work late because of a shipping emergency, he insisted on coming down with a picnic, despite the fact that she told him not to. I would NEVER do that to anyone at work. That's their job and they need to look professional at work. Your boss doesn't need to see your boyfriend putting a picnic on your desk while you're supposed to be handling a huge emergency.

He continued to be jealous and suspicious of Mark, no matter how many times she said that she wasn't interested in him. For me, that's a deal breaker. If you can't trust your girlfriend not to cheat on you just because another guy might find them attractive, then you shouldn't be together.

On 1/30/2017 at 5:45 AM, marshmallow said:

I agree about the condoms too.  And why keep them in the bathroom?  It seems silly to have to run to the bathroom at the last second to grab one.

Plus you're not supposed to keep condoms in warm places, so putting them in the bathroom which gets hot at least twice a day when people take showers with the door closed is not a good idea!

[Jax7917]

On 10/2/2017 at 4:28 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was never a Ross/Rachel shipper during the original run of the show. I used to watch the reruns on various channels because the show is like comfort food for me too. But now that I've been rewatching the entire series in chronological order on Netflix, I dislike Ross even more.

First he spent the first season moping about how he liked Rachel, getting ridiculously jealous and possessive of her, but never actually asking her out. Shit or get off the pot, man. If you're not going to ask her out then you have no right to get so irrationally jealous of every guy she dates.

The only reason they ended up dating was not because Ross ever had the balls to ask her out but because Chandler let it slip that Ross was in love with her and then she went chasing after him at the airport. Granted, Rachel was jealous of Julie because she was the big roadblock to Ross, but at least she wasn't constantly rude to Julie (unlike Ross who didn't even try to hide his disdain for Paolo during S1).

When Rachel got drunk and left that message for Ross about how she was over him, he had the nerve to get mad at her. When he made that terrible pros/cons list and she found it, he then acted like HE was the victim.

When they finally started dating, he belittled her career. He resented when she had to work late, completely disregarding the fact that we saw him getting phone calls from the museum in the evenings on multiple occasions and that a "museum emergency" required him to go back to the museum the night of their first date, none of which she ever complained about. He completely disregarded her boundaries time after time, sending flowers and teddy bears and barbershop quartets to her AT WORK, not to mention dropping by unannounced to check up on her (and Mark). When she told him that she had to work late because of a shipping emergency, he insisted on coming down with a picnic, despite the fact that she told him not to. I would NEVER do that to anyone at work. That's their job and they need to look professional at work. Your boss doesn't need to see your boyfriend putting a picnic on your desk while you're supposed to be handling a huge emergency.

He continued to be jealous and suspicious of Mark, no matter how many times she said that she wasn't interested in him. For me, that's a deal breaker. If you can't trust your girlfriend not to cheat on you just because another guy might find them attractive, then you shouldn't be together.

 

There is a whole season dedicated to Rachel being mean to Julie . That whole story line is stupid anyway. He literally just started dating Julie . Why wouldn't Rachel just tell Ross that she found out how he feels and that she feels the same way? I understand it's a show but it was a little ridiculous that she wouldn't just tell Ross how she feels after she found out he was in love with her.

[rozarina]

God, it was a long time ago. I now watch this series and I understand how things change. Now this series seems to me so naive and ridiculous

[Danny Franks]

On 02/10/2017 at 9:28 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was never a Ross/Rachel shipper during the original run of the show. I used to watch the reruns on various channels because the show is like comfort food for me too. But now that I've been rewatching the entire series in chronological order on Netflix, I dislike Ross even more.

First he spent the first season moping about how he liked Rachel, getting ridiculously jealous and possessive of her, but never actually asking her out. Shit or get off the pot, man. If you're not going to ask her out then you have no right to get so irrationally jealous of every guy she dates.

The only reason they ended up dating was not because Ross ever had the balls to ask her out but because Chandler let it slip that Ross was in love with her and then she went chasing after him at the airport. Granted, Rachel was jealous of Julie because she was the big roadblock to Ross, but at least she wasn't constantly rude to Julie (unlike Ross who didn't even try to hide his disdain for Paolo during S1).

When Rachel got drunk and left that message for Ross about how she was over him, he had the nerve to get mad at her. When he made that terrible pros/cons list and she found it, he then acted like HE was the victim.

When they finally started dating, he belittled her career. He resented when she had to work late, completely disregarding the fact that we saw him getting phone calls from the museum in the evenings on multiple occasions and that a "museum emergency" required him to go back to the museum the night of their first date, none of which she ever complained about. He completely disregarded her boundaries time after time, sending flowers and teddy bears and barbershop quartets to her AT WORK, not to mention dropping by unannounced to check up on her (and Mark). When she told him that she had to work late because of a shipping emergency, he insisted on coming down with a picnic, despite the fact that she told him not to. I would NEVER do that to anyone at work. That's their job and they need to look professional at work. Your boss doesn't need to see your boyfriend putting a picnic on your desk while you're supposed to be handling a huge emergency.

He continued to be jealous and suspicious of Mark, no matter how many times she said that she wasn't interested in him. For me, that's a deal breaker. If you can't trust your girlfriend not to cheat on you just because another guy might find them attractive, then you shouldn't be together.

Plus you're not supposed to keep condoms in warm places, so putting them in the bathroom which gets hot at least twice a day when people take showers with the door closed is not a good idea!

Ross/Rachel were toxic together. From before they got together, all the way through their relationship, and then after they broke up. They never seemed to respect one another, rarely even seemed to like one another. They only really rang true as exes who have learned to get along, but still throw in pointed jabs at one another from time to time. And it annoys me that everyone always tiptoed around Ross about it afterwards. Everything Rachel did seemed to be defined by 'but what will Ross think?' They even tied them together with contrivance baby, to ensure that Rachel couldn't be free of him.

It really hit home when Rachel herself told Joey she and Ross hadn't been together for about six years, at the end of season 9. Separated for six years (which, as far as I can tell, was longer than any of Ross's marriages), but Ross still freaks out like she's his property, when he sees her kissing Joey.

Unfortunately, I don't really see this as dated, because TV shows still push this shit as 'romantic'. Childish jealousy, invasions of privacy, emotional abuse played for laughs. You still see it on TV all the time, from sitcoms to dramas.

[Jax7917]

I feel like the ross/rachel relationship wasn't realistic. They dated for supposedly 1 year , and for the rest of the series, their non-existent relationship was somehow dragged out. If the writers wanted to make them an on again off again couple, then at least make them and on again off again couple. They never dated again after they broke up in what, the third season? But we're supposed to believe that they still have a thing for each other but won't get back together? Even after they had Emma, they were constantly annoyed at each other for being in a relationship, yet didn't want to be in one with each other. And then out of absoulely nowhere at the last episode of the series, they all of a sudden are so in love with each other? Just doesn't make sense. Chandler and Monica's relationship was an actual relationship.

[Danny Franks]

There was definitely a very meta approach to how the show dealt with their relationship. The writing of the show often inflated their relationship and it's importance in both their lives, seemingly because it was so important in how the show gained cultural popularity.

In TOW Ross is Fine, Joey even says "you're Ross and Rachel" as a reason for why he can't believe Ross is fine. And i agree that it's not realistic that a one year relationship, over for six years, is still a defining quality of someone's life.

Then again, in that episode, they really double down on Joey/Rachel, with him emphasising that they really like each other, and Ross giving them his belated blessing, only to erase it all in the next episode. It feels like the writers of one episode didn't read the previous episode's script, and instead just 'corrected' things, like they were writing a fanfic.

[WildStyle]

I got into Friends very late. I still enjoy the episodes. But some things that did change when I got the DVDs and watched everything consecutively. 

Phoebe became a huge bitch after she got pregnant.  She was horrible, and everyone acting scared of her and kissing her ass was really annoying. But Marta Kaufman & David Crane, the writer & producer said they loved bitch Phoebe, and that it was always fun when they could make her a bitch. So....I'll disagree with that.

Ross & Rachel were toxic. Rachel had Ross' balls in her purse, and Ross was just pathetic when it came to her. Especially when he's such a wuss that he's gonna drink fat because she said so. BOTH brought out the worst in each other, and yet we're supposed to root for them when they both dated better people? NOT! Monica & Chandler is where it was for me. I could see the love with them, and they had a real relationship with real problems. Unlike Ross & Rachel where everything was a problem. 

I will say I didn't buy into Monica & Richard.  It didn't seem genuine when they went on about their love. They were only together a few months. It's silly how neither of them bothered to talk about what they expected before they got too entangled. Monica just assumed she & Richard would have a baby -even though he's got grandkids already. And Richard just assumed Monica wouldn't want kids -even though she had none of his family experiences. And of course, unlucky in love Monica is crazy about the guy who seems totally out of her league. Monica complained in the pilot that only dogs & emotionally unstable men liked her. She's also shown to have low confidence, with validation coming from how desirable men think she is. She's a female Chandler. So now Richard comes in, so of course she's gonna be crazy about  her prince charming who seems to have no flaws. But will it be the same when he's old, shriveled & isn't as handsome anymore? That seemed like something good for a fling, but I didn't get the soulmate thing that writers were gonna make it before Mondler happened.

Some of the gay jokes probably wouldn't fly simply because they just look immature and too stereotypical now. But I don't think they're offensive, since David Crane is gay. So surely he meant no harm in the jokes.

Edited November 28, 2017 by WildStyle

[msani19]

8 hours ago, WildStyle said:

Some of the gay jokes probably wouldn't fly simply because they just look immature and too stereotypical now. But I don't think they're offensive, since David Crane is gay. So surely he meant no harm in the jokes.

Very interesting post! From my perspective, I'm sure most of the gay jokes wouldn't fly today. Mostly because "we", as a society, just don't think those things are funny anymore, no that they really ever were funny.  The hysterical way the guys reacted to certain things (aka "gay panic") is just beyond ridiculous. OMG, you're wearing a pink shirt! OMG, you guys touched! OMG, you're acting like a "girl" - horror! I'm not sure that having a writer who is gay on the show at the time made the jokes ok. It's like saying well the show had a black writer so the racially charged jokes were ok...and @WildStyle I'm not in ANY WAY SUGGESTING THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!! I really get what you mean. It's the sense that while we think the joke uncomfortable or maybe a little off, however, if we see the object or target of the group laughing, then we might feel ok laughing too. This is why the jokes wouldn't fly today, there's nothing funny about them because the show’s treatment of LGBTQ issues is awful and obsolete.

[BBHN]

Yeah but...gay panic was real back then.

I mean, if nothing, the show was somewhat accurate.

Hell, there are people today who think wearing a pink shirt makes you look gay.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, msani19 said:

It's the sense that while we think the joke uncomfortable or maybe a little off, however, if we see the object or target of the group laughing, then we might feel ok laughing too. This is why the jokes wouldn't fly today, there's nothing funny about them because the show’s treatment of LGBTQ issues is awful and obsolete.

I agree that a lot of the gay jokes about the guys were pretty awful. The conceit that enjoying 'girly' things is emasculating runs through much of the show, and it's very disappointing in hindsight. But not unexpected, because things have changed a lot in the last decade, in terms of general acceptance of LGBTQ differences.

But Friends did present a positive lesbian relationship, in Carol and Susan, and never undermined, mocked or dismissed it. Sure, they mocked Ross for losing his wife, but that tended to be more, 'how did you not figure out she was a lesbian?' than, 'you're obviously not man enough'. And it folded into the larger joke of Ross marrying and divorcing multiple times.

You could say there is a disparity in the way homosexual male relationships were portrayed and the way homosexual female relationships are portrayed. But I think that's true of society even now. Because much of the world is still framed and defined by the straight man, the idea of 'hot lesbians' seems more accepted than the idea of any kind of gay men.

But there was an evolution of it on the show. In season 9, when Joey tells Rachel about one of his co-stars being gay, he just says "at the Christmas party, he and Santa did some definitely gay stuff" without apparent judgement or squeamishness. I don't think he'd have been that casual about it in season 2 or 3.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Danny Franks

[Jax7917]

22 hours ago, WildStyle said:

Carol and Susan annoy me more than any of the other couples on the show. First Carol cheats on Ross with her and makes it like it's no big deal as well as Ross's friends thinking it's no big deal because "she finally was brave enough to admit to herself she was a lesbian". Then Carol and Susan thinks it's normal to exclude Ross from anything Ben and even go so far as to say they want Ben to take on Susan's last name among other things. They just annoy me to no end lol.

22 hours ago, WildStyle said:

bout their love. They were only together a few months. It's silly how neither of them bothered to talk about what they expected before they got too entangled. Monica just assumed she & Richard would have a baby -even though he's got grandkids already. And Richard just assumed Monica wouldn't want kids -even though she had none of his family experiences. And of course, unlucky in love Monica is crazy about the guy who seems totally out of her league. Monica complained in the pilot that only dogs & emotionally unstable men liked her. She's also shown to have low confidence, with validation coming from how desirable men think she is. She's a female Chandler. So now Richard comes in, so of course she's gonna be crazy about  her prince charming who seems to have no flaws. But will it be the same when he's old, shriveled & isn't as handsome anymore? That seemed like something good for a fling, but I didn't get the soulmate thing.

 

Yeah I never understood why that wouldn't be a topic of conversation before they got serious. If you know you absolutely don't want kids, but are dating a 20 something year old, wouldn't you make that clear in the beginning? Same with Monica. Wouldn't she see the age difference and think, "hmm I better make sure he wants kids since he has grown children and grandchildren.". I did like Monica and Richard together, but I felt like they were together for such a short time, that I also didn't buy that they just couldn't get over each other years later. I get still having a crush and butterflies when you see that person again, but still in love? EH.

[Guest]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:09 AM, Jaclyn88 said:

I feel like the ross/rachel relationship wasn't realistic. They dated for supposedly 1 year , and for the rest of the series, their non-existent relationship was somehow dragged out. If the writers wanted to make them an on again off again couple, then at least make them and on again off again couple. They never dated again after they broke up in what, the third season? But we're supposed to believe that they still have a thing for each other but won't get back together? Even after they had Emma, they were constantly annoyed at each other for being in a relationship, yet didn't want to be in one with each other. And then out of absoulely nowhere at the last episode of the series, they all of a sudden are so in love with each other? Just doesn't make sense. Chandler and Monica's relationship was an actual relationship.

Looking back, I wonder how much was the writers and how much was the show promo machine.  I didn't watch the show when it was airing, but I had heard so much about Ross and Rachel just from.... I don't know..... waiting in line at the supermarket?  TV Guide articles?  (This was before I really "had" the internet so I really don't remember where I got my pop culture news!)  I remember being surprised when I finally watched the show how little they were together.

[WildStyle]

10 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Yeah I never understood why that wouldn't be a topic of conversation before they got serious. If you know you absolutely don't want kids, but are dating a 20 something year old, wouldn't you make that clear in the beginning? Same with Monica. Wouldn't she see the age difference and think, "hmm I better make sure he wants kids since he has grown children and grandchildren.". I did like Monica and Richard together, but I felt like they were together for such a short time, that I also didn't buy that they just couldn't get over each other years later. I get still having a crush and butterflies when you see that person again, but still in love? EH.

It's been so long, but I looked back over their episodes. They were together shorter than Ross & Rachel. They got together in episode 15 of season 2. And broke up the same season, in episode 24. So as fans go, they were a couple over a period of 10 episodes, and Richard was only in about half of those. lol Monica & Richard had their first date the same night as Ross & Rachel.

Ross & Rachel were together a good bit longer, and it had been a year when they broke up. So Monica & Richard didn't even date 1 full year before they became the loves of one another's lives. To the point that Richard was more upset about losing Monica than his wife of 20 years. Jack tells Monica that Richard is handling his break-up with her worse than his divorce. Says something about how he felt about his wife. lol

 

Another thing is Phoebe 2 main guys. Mike or David? I think when I was younger, I'd have picked David. But older, and watching the show consecutively, it's gotta be Mike.

Phoebe had become a different person by the time David came back. They were great in season 1 when Phoebe was still a sweet hippie. But after season 4, she became a real bitch. And she had no respect for guys if they couldn't handle her. Look how she treats Ross & Chandler. She runs all over them, and thinks both are wusses. Then when she was dating Tim, Monica's chef. She complained he was too sweet, always doting on her, and that he should be a man. The only time she found Chandler attractive is when he refused to spend all his money on Monica's dream wedding. He gave a firm no, and Phoebe says that money + a firm hand is a Chandler she can like.

Phoebe became a woman who didn't respect guys that couldn't put their foot down. She'd have run all over David before she got bored with him. Not to mention they weren't together that long anyway. I can't even remember if they ever slept together. They dated for around a week (if that) before the Minsk deal. Then after that, they saw each other once every few years. The honeymoon phase hadn't even had a chance to settle in yet, let alone wear off. She worked better with stand-up guys like Gary & Mike, who loved her, but wouldn't take much crap from her.

Edited November 29, 2017 by WildStyle

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Looking back, I wonder how much was the writers and how much was the show promo machine.  I didn't watch the show when it was airing, but I had heard so much about Ross and Rachel just from.... I don't know..... waiting in line at the supermarket?  TV Guide articles?  (This was before I really "had" the internet so I really don't remember where I got my pop culture news!)  I remember being surprised when I finally watched the show how little they were together.

It was definitely the promotional stuff. Friends was the first 'It' show of the 90s, which just happened to coincide with the advent of the internet. And they played on that 'will they, won't they' as an easy hook. When it comes down to it, there was more to the build than there was to their relationship (as is often the case with TV). Ross pined after her, sneered at her dating choices and generally acted like an entitled child for the whole first season. Then the tables turned and Rachel acted like that for the first half of season 2. They were only together for twenty four episodes. Twenty four, out of a total of two hundred and thirty six. It's ridiculous that the couple is so venerated, to the point that neither could never date anyone else without either the approval or disgruntlement of the other.

I didn't watch the first two seasons live, I picked up the show at the start of season 3, when they were already together. And even then, it was written like they were this huge deal that everyone was in awe of (though I still wasn't a fan). So when they broke up midway into the season, it resonated. Only when catching up with the first two seasons did I realise, 'huh, there wasn't that much there, after all'.

 

54 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

Phoebe had become a different person by the time David came back. They were great in season 1 when Phoebe was still a sweet hippie. But after season 4, she became a real bitch. And she had no respect for guys if they could handle her. Look how she treats Ross & Chandler. She runs all over them, and thinks both are wusses. Then when she was dating Tim, Monica's chef. She complained he was too sweet, always doting on her, and that he should be a man. The only time she found Chandler attractive is when he refused to spend all his money on Monica's dream wedding. He gave a firm no, and Phoebe says that money + a firm hand is a Chandler she can like.

Phoebe became a woman who didn't respect guys that couldn't put their foot down. She'd have run all over David before she got bored with him. Not to mention they weren't together that long anyway. I can't even remember if they ever slept together. They dated for around a week (if that) before the Minsk deal. Then after that, they saw each other once every few years. The honeymoon phase hadn't even had a chance to settle in yet, let alone wear off. She worked better with stand-up guys like Gary & Mike, who loved her, but wouldn't take much crap from her.

What surprised me on this rewatch is how promiscuous Phoebe is written as being. On several occasions, they allude to her sleeping with lots of guys, and apparently having very low standards when it comes to choosing partners. It also comes across as her using these guys for sex, without having any feelings for them whatsoever. Now, it isn't shocking to me that a woman should be open about her sexuality at all, but I just didn't remember it, and it seems quite daring for US television in the 90s. Particularly the casual aspect of it.

Phoebe was a character who could be a lot of fun, when paired with the right person, but I agree that it was generally based on how much she respected and/or liked that person. With Joey, she often seemed sweet and loving, but with Chandler she was often openly dismissive and even cruel. With Ross, she kind of flitted between those two extremes, but seemed to like him more than Chandler. I haven't noticed a marked difference between the ways she interacts with Rachel and Monica.

I don't know how much thought went into the interplay between characters at the time of writing, but I do really appreciate that each pairing worked in a different way, and characters brought different aspects out in one another. I've been enjoying Ross's ability to be silly and lighthearted when he's hanging out with Joey, for example. I'm sure a lot of that was the actors, and how they interpreted the characters, which then bled back into the writing. But it does reward rewatching.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Danny Franks

[WildStyle]

19 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

What surprised me on this rewatch is how promiscuous Phoebe is written as being. On several occasions, they allude to her sleeping with lots of guys, and apparently having very low standards when it comes to choosing partners. It also comes across as her using these guys for sex, without having any feelings for them whatsoever. Now, it isn't shocking to me that a woman should be open about her sexuality at all, but I just didn't remember it, and it seems quite daring for US television in the 90s. Particularly the casual aspect of it.

Phoebe was a character who could be a lot of fun, when paired with the right person, but I agree that it was generally based on how much she respected and/or liked that person. With Joey, she often seemed sweet and loving, but with Chandler she was often openly dismissive and even cruel. With Ross, she kind of flitted between those two extremes, but seemed to like him more than Chandler. I haven't noticed a marked difference between the ways she interacts with Rachel and Monica.

I don't know how much thought went into the interplay between characters at the time of writing, but I do really appreciate that each pairing worked in a different way, and characters brought different aspects out in one another. I've been enjoying Ross's ability to be silly and lighthearted when he's hanging out with Joey, for example. I'm sure a lot of that was the actors, and how they interpreted the characters, which then bled back into the writing. But it does reward rewatching.

You see the difference with Ross & Chandler for Phoebe in how she treats their main relationships.

Phoebe is a big supporter of Ross & Rachel. She mentions it seeming as though they belonged together, and often encouraged both to give it a shot. Then there was her teaming up with Joey to give them bad dates so they'd realize they need to be with each other.  And of course the famous Lobster quote.

Then when it comes to Monica & Chandler, Phoebe showed nothing but contempt for them. When their 1 year anniversary was coming, Phoebe says she can't believe they lasted that long and that she owes Rachel money. Then during their fight over Richard in Vegas, Phoebe tells Monica that a setback in her relationship with Chandler means nothing because it's only Chandler. Lets not forget her thinking she met Monica's soulmate, and bringing him to Central Perk to introduce him to Monica right in front of Chandler. And the worst of all is when she first finds out about them. She says it's great for Chandler, but Monica could do better. There were times where it almost seemed she wanted & expected them to breakup. 

Far as her relationship to Monica & Rachel. She seemed to prefer Rachel. She says at one point that she loves drunk Monica because she's much more fun that regular Monica. Saying she'd rather date Rachel than Monica. And at one point, she refers to Rachel as her best friend. We also can't forget the episode where it's revealed she wanted to cut Monica out of her life shortly after she moved out. Phoebe seems to find Monica annoying in many cases. When she lived with Monica after the fire at her place, she tried locking herself in the bedroom to get away from her. But when she lived with Rachel, she was excited & loved it.  Both wanted to be Monica's maid of honor. Phoebe got the position, but when Rachel starts to cry & shows Phoebe all the stuff she had for it, then Phoebe gives up her MOH position, saying that it clearly means more to Rachel. She didn't say that in a mean way, but clearly Rachel was closer to Monica than she was.

Edited November 28, 2017 by WildStyle

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, WildStyle said:

Phoebe is a big supporter of Ross & Rachel. She mentions it seeming as though they belonged together, and often encouraged both to give it a shot. Then there was her teaming up with Joey to give them bad dates so they'd realize they need to be with each other.  And of course the famous Lobster quote.

 

Right there, you're giving me reasons not to like Phoebe. I hate the mythologising of Ross/Rachel, both by fans and by the show itself. Phoebe being the eternal cheerleader for them really grates. Especially because there was legitimately no credible reason for her to see it that way. Not when she doesn't care about any other relationships, including the many flings she has herself.

 

Quote

Far as her relationship to Monica & Rachel. She seemed to prefer Rachel. She says at one point that she loves drunk Monica because she's much more fun that regular Monica. Saying she'd rather date Rachel than Monica. And at one point, she refers to Rachel as her best friend. We also can't forget the episode where it's revealed she wanted to cut Monica out of her life shortly after she moved out. Phoebe seems to find Monica annoying in many cases. When she lived with Monica after the fire at her place, she tried locking herself in the bedroom to get away from her. But when she lived with Rachel, she was excited & loved it.  Both wanted to be Monica's maid of honor. Phoebe got the position, but when Rachel starts to cry & shows Phoebe all the stuff she had for it, then Phoebe gives up her MOH position, saying that it clearly means more to Rachel. She didn't say that in a mean way, but clearly Rachel was closer to Monica than she was.

I couldn't recall most of those when writing my post, but I agree that they all suggest she was annoyed by Monica a lot of the time. After all, she even moved out of the apartment, twice, because she couldn't stand living with her.

To attribute malicious intent to Phoebe, it could be argued that she enjoyed belittling people who usually came out on top in arguments. Chandler with his quick wit, Monica with her pathological need to be right. Or it could be argued that she just had very low tolerance for their dominant personality traits. On that, at least, I'm sort of with her. Because I found Monica incredibly annoying, and if I knew Chandler in real life, I'd only want to spend very short periods of time with his smartass self.  I don't know, again, how deliberate it was in the writing, or how much came through in Lisa Kudrow's line delivery.

[helenamonster]

On 11/28/2017 at 3:45 PM, Danny Franks said:

To attribute malicious intent to Phoebe, it could be argued that she enjoyed belittling people who usually came out on top in arguments. Chandler with his quick wit, Monica with her pathological need to be right. Or it could be argued that she just had very low tolerance for their dominant personality traits. On that, at least, I'm sort of with her. Because I found Monica incredibly annoying, and if I knew Chandler in real life, I'd only want to spend very short periods of time with his smartass self.  I don't know, again, how deliberate it was in the writing, or how much came through in Lisa Kudrow's line delivery.

This is spot on. Never forget: Ross and Phoebe arguing about evolution.

[msani19]

I kinda loved the evolution argument cause I think a lot of it - to me felt like it - was Pheobe just messing with Ross. I don't know if she truly cared one way or the other, but getting Ross worked up...worth it. I'd have done it if I was in her shoes. He's so insufferable.

[BBHN]

While some aspects of the show haven't aged as well as others, I still enjoy the show overall. So, not feeling too different about it.

[Madding crowd]

I think Phoebe was the one being insufferable at times. She expected her friends to believe her crazy ideas like her mother was in a cat and a dead lady was living in her. Ross was a scientist and was being reasonable about evolution.

[WildStyle]

On the subject of Phoebe, she was definitely my least favorite character after season 4. I watched the show in pieces the first time. But watching the full series, I realized what a horrible bitch she was.

I already listed some of her bad moments with Mondler. But she was also a huge hypocrite. She couldn't take what she dished out. MC mentioned the cat episode. Phoebe was acting silly there, then has the nerve to tell Ross he's not being a friend when he automatically doesn't support her, even if she's wrong. Despite the fact she belittles everyone else constantly. She sure as heck doesn't support them if she thinks they're wrong. Or when she was dating Parker (Alec Baldwin), the gang finds him weird & annoying. When Phoebe finds out, she gets mad and says she never talked down about the people they dated. And that was a HUGE lie. She made fun of Janice, teased Ross about Elizabeth, hated Emily. Just a few examples.

Then her passive aggressive nature of acting open-minded and accepting, only to be the very opposite. For example, she makes numerous comments about finding women attractive, but constantly puts down Chandler by calling him gay and a queen. Then seeing him taking a bubble bath, and insulting his masculinity because of it. When Rachel is embarrassed by her weird running, she calls Rachel uptight, then says she's not judging her because being uptight is who she is. Judging is exactly what she was doing. Or telling Joey that waxing his brows is something men do when they want a sex-change. Joey mentions how she colors her hair, and Phoebe argues it's ok because she's a woman.

For someone who [prides themselves on being liberal & open-minded, she was very frigid in terms of gender roles, and how real men were supposed to be. 

As mentioned, she tries to force her taste on everyone else, and if they hate it, she's got an attitude. Like singing outside of Monica's restaurant after Monica said she didn't like it. Then demanding to sing at her & Chandler's wedding. At one point, she even tells Joey she'll sing at their wedding with or without their permission. Then when they finally tell her she can sing, she comes in and demands money for it.  And in that same episode she was also cruel in being happy that Chandler had ED and couldn't have sex. She mentions it's a great night because Ross & Rachel kissed and Chandler can't do it. Then laughs and says he may not need to drink anything at dinner.

I'll stop here. because listing all of Phoebe's horrible moments would take 2 pages. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by WildStyle

[Madding crowd]

Yes to all your points. I've mentioned this before but I always hated it when Phoebe would threaten to hurt one of the friends or twist their ears or pinch their necks. She usually did this to the guys and if I were them I wouldn't be friends with someone like that. 

[Jax7917]

Yeah the writers obviously found her quirks cute and funny, but I found her to be the most annoying character by far. As a whole, I just didn't find her character funny at all.

[WildStyle]

She was like Jar Jar Binks. Unnecessary. In many cases, she was just around to be random. If you took her out of the show, you wouldn't be losing much. And she had some of the most random storylines that were hard to find funny or care about. In fact, I recall very few solo Phoebe plots that I enjoyed after season 3.

[chitowngirl]

17 hours ago, msani19 said:

I kinda loved the evolution argument cause I think a lot of it - to me felt like it - was Pheobe just messing with Ross. I don't know if she truly cared one way or the other, but getting Ross worked up...worth it. I'd have done it if I was in her shoes. He's so insufferable.

"Don't get me started on gravity." Oh, she was definitely messing with him. She couldn't believe he caved so fast. And she memorized the title of Anthropology articles to ask Charlie her opinion of them.

[Jax7917]

2 hours ago, WildStyle said:

She was like Jar Jar Binks. Unnecessary. In many cases, she was just around to be random. If you took her out of the show, you wouldn't be losing much. And she had some of the most random storylines that were hard to find funny or care about. In fact, I recall very few solo Phoebe plots that I enjoyed after season 3.

Yeah i think the 5 of them were all main characters and phoebe was a supporting character . I don't recall too many story lines  where she was the center 

[WildStyle]

8 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Yeah i think the 5 of them were all main characters and phoebe was a supporting character . I don't recall too many story lines  where she was the center 

She was usually the extra in someone else's story, which worked. But when she had main stories...eh.  Some I recall.

Stories about trying to find her real mother & father

The Cat 

Having her brother's triplets

Trying to find the guy with the broken leg in the hospital

Having an old woman's spirit inside of her

A story about her hating they cut down trees at Xmas, and put them in wood chippers.  

Trying to prove selfless good deeds exist 

Never having a bike and Ross buying her one, then teaching her to ride it.

 

Those off the top of my head. They weren't bad. But they were usually the least interesting. Now Joey was the character who had some terrible stories.  Not interesting, and sometimes he was waaay too stupid to find funny

The Hand Twin.

Can't Speak French.

The Mall Cowboy thing 

When he was on Pyramid 

The entire *In Love with Rachel* plot

Edited December 1, 2017 by WildStyle

[helenamonster]

4 hours ago, WildStyle said:

She was like Jar Jar Binks. Unnecessary. In many cases, she was just around to be random. If you took her out of the show, you wouldn't be losing much. And she had some of the most random storylines that were hard to find funny or care about. In fact, I recall very few solo Phoebe plots that I enjoyed after season 3.

I quote this all the time when not talking about this show but now I can use it completely in context: she lifts right out!

[Nessie]

On 11/30/2017 at 7:43 PM, WildStyle said:

She was usually the extra in someone else's story, which worked. But when she had main stories...eh.  Some I recall.

Stories about trying to find her real mother & father

The Cat 

Having her brother's triplets

Trying to find the guy with the broken leg in the hospital

Having an old woman's spirit inside of her

A story about her hating they cut down trees at Xmas, and put them in wood chippers.  

Trying to prove selfless good deeds exist 

Never having a bike and Ross buying her one, then teaching her to ride it.

 

Those off the top of my head. They weren't bad. But they were usually the least interesting. Now Joey was the character who had some terrible stories.  Not interesting, and sometimes he was waaay too stupid to find funny

The Hand Twin.

Can't Speak French.

The Mall Cowboy thing 

When he was on Pyramid 

The entire *In Love with Rachel* plot

I'm with you on your entire post (especially Joey's "hand twin", I mean, WTF was that, aside from "one of the stupidest story ideas ever"), but "Paper...snow...A GHOST!" will never not be funny to me.

Phoebe was so sweet and genuinely quirky in the first season.  Boy did they ruin her character.

[WendyCR72]

The funny thing I recall reading was, initially, Phoebe and Chandler were supposed to be the side pals. I recall reading someplace ages ago that Chandler and Phoebe were not supposed to be as prominent. Seemed to hold for Phoebe, in a sense, but I suppose Matthew Perry's charm and Chandler's sarcasm caught on fast with the audience.

To that end, I recall the writers saying how they briefly considered pairing Joey and Monica (I think this was very early on), so I'm glad that never happened. I like Joey. I like Monica. But together? Umm...

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, Joey/Monica seems like the worst fit of all the potential pairings. But given TV writers' love of toxic drama, it's totally understandable that they considered going there.

Though I suppose both characters would have evolved differently if it had happened. As it was, Chandler ended up feeling like something of a 'cool dad' character by the end of the show. Quite an evolution from the insecure, wisecracking smartass he started off as. And him becoming more chilled out and calm let them take Monica to increasingly (And often annoyingly) neurotic places.

Joey never really evolved at all, and ultimately he seems more like a side character, in terms of his journey through the show. Still my favourite, though.

[Magnumfangirl]

On 12/9/2017 at 1:52 AM, WendyCR72 said:

The funny thing I recall reading was, initially, Phoebe and Chandler were supposed to be the side pals.

If that's true, it would have been strange.  Outside of Monica & Rachel, Chandler had the longest history with the group.  The 6 were all lead characters, but I always thought the show was based around Ross & Monica and then how the others connected to them.  

 

On 12/9/2017 at 1:52 AM, WendyCR72 said:

To that end, I recall the writers saying how they briefly considered pairing Joey and Monica

I remember them saying that too.  In the flashback episode where Joey and Chandler become roommates, Monica was interested in Joey; but at the same time there were hints in the early seasons that Monica and Chandler were going to be together.

[WildStyle]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:45 PM, Magnumfangirl said:

If that's true, it would have been strange.  Outside of Monica & Rachel, Chandler had the longest history with the group.  The 6 were all lead characters, but I always thought the show was based around Ross & Monica and then how the others connected to them.  

 

I remember them saying that too.  In the flashback episode where Joey and Chandler become roommates, Monica was interested in Joey; but at the same time there were hints in the early seasons that Monica and Chandler were going to be together.

Mondler actually wasn't planned as a big thing. The writers got the idea in season 3 or 4, and were gonna have that London hookup just be a one-time thing. But given the audience's reaction, and how they had to stop folming to wait for everyone to calm down some, they kept Mondler and played with it as a legit pairing. 

Originally, Richard was gonna be Monica's true love. 

[Jax7917]

8 hours ago, WildStyle said:

Mondler actually wasn't planned as a big thing. The writers got the idea in season 3 or 4, and were gonna have that London hookup just be a one-time thing. But given the audience's reaction, and how they had to stop folming to wait for everyone to calm down some, they kept Mondler and played with it as a legit pairing. 

Originally, Richard was gonna be Monica's true love. 

I think the main reason Mondler worked so well was because it wasn't so planned out and they didn't shove it down our throats. It happened naturally (unlike Ross and Rachel who we were forced to like). If they had made Rachel and Ross's relationship last longer and shown us more moments that they had together, I can see rooting for them. But their relationship was short lived and they fought for a lot of the actual time they were together. Chandler and Monica had a really good, solid relationship