S03.E11: Dead or Alive

[Terrafamilia]

I couldn't help but notice that for some time now Barry hasn't been blurring his face or modulating his voice when interacting with the public and Wally never has. Will this come back to bite them (especially camera hog Wally)?

[KirkB]

Barry typically doesn't alter his face or voice anymore unless he's around someone who might recognize him personally. The citizens of Central City in general wouldn't have any idea who Barry Allen or Wally West are. In fact the only significant person they're around who doesn't already know their secret is Captain Singh.

I'm putting my money on Julian to die. HR being the one to betray the team is the most obvious and most likely but I kind of hope it's Wally. Not in the sense he turns bad but maybe Savitar or someone forces him.

[Maverick]

9 hours ago, KirkB said:

Yeah, it bugs me how Barry and Cisco go on about Harrison Wells when they have never met the man. They spent a year with Eobard Thawne in disguise. Harrison Wells has been dead since they were kids.

 Cisco and Caitlin knew "Wells" much longer than a year.  He hired them both at Star Labs and mentored and encouraged them early in their careers.  Despite the fact of who/what he was ultimately revealed to be, that man wearing Wells' face and impersonating him was a big a big factor in who they are today.    As for Barry, yes he only knew him for a year but he met him when he just developed his powers and "Wells" was the man who trained and encouraged him.   Intellectually they all know he wasn't Wells and was ultimately their enemy but emotionally they still attach Wells' face and personality to the man who helped them all. 

[zannej]

I enjoyed this one and I probably should have posted my review of it before watching LoT (because I loved that one so much I watched it like 10 times now).

Wally letting people photograph him without blurring his face and possibly allowing himself to be video recorded without altering his voice is very reckless. Someone could run facial recognition software. I actually think that Singh sort of knows (or at least suspects) that Barry is the Flash-- hence not doing anything about Julian's complaints of Barry leaving the office all the time.

I really liked Gypsy and she had great chemistry with Cisco. It was great to have the old Cisco back. I didn't like that Gypsy just gave up after one take-down. She could easily have continued fighting, but I guess the point was that she really didn't want to kill Cisco and maybe she felt HR wasn't such a bad guy that he deserved to die.

Speaking of HR, I think that Tom Cavanagh usually does a great job of portraying emotions and doing very subtle things, but something seemed off to me. Maybe he was having HR put on a brave face or whatever, but there just didn't seem to be the right level of apprehension for someone who was going to be taken back to be executed. I wonder how they even carry out the executions there. It was especially evident when compared to Matt Letschers performance in LoT. Maybe if I watch this episode again I'll pick up on something I missed. Maybe they need to bring a live snake to set and put it in front of Tom to get a good reaction. :P

I wonder if HR is originally from Earth19 or if he was just staying on Earth19 after he left his own Earth. It sounds like he's been traveling around and sending back chapters- but maybe he was only sending back chapters from Earth1?

I really enjoy how Julian doesn't sugar coat things.

The bit where Joe seemed to be freaking out thinking that Iris was going to say she was pregnant was funny. Although, I wonder why that would freak him out so much. Does he feel he's too young to be a grandfather? And it seems he was too distracted to think about the fact that Barry has a pet turtle already. Glad to see that Cecile was still around.

And Iris walking right up to the gun... Wow. Not the brightest move, but I get that she figures either she will be killed by Savitar or she will somehow survive at least up to that point.

I agree with the person (whom I forgot to quote) that said that they should use Cisco to help defeat Savitar. He could port to Savitar and either take Iris away, or attack, or port Barry closer or *something*. It could be a team effort.

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, zannej said:

The bit where Joe seemed to be freaking out thinking that Iris was going to say she was pregnant was funny. Although, I wonder why that would freak him out so much. Does he feel he's too young to be a grandfather?

Not so much that as that he was afraid that Iris was pregnant out-of-wedlock (since she and Barry aren't married yet). I know most people shrug that off in 2017, but for those of us who belong to a certain generation, there's still at least a subconscious bias in favor of waiting until AFTER marriage to have sex, let alone to start a family.

Edited February 4, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Princess Lucky]

I was optimistically hoping this HR-centric (as I assumed) episode would finally give me a reason to like him.

Nope.

I'm as annoyed by him as I've always been. Fortunately, we did get the old Cisco back, plus a snarkier Julian, so I still enjoyed the episode. At this point, I wouldn't mind keeping Julian/Tom Felton over HR/Tom Cavanagh. Like, if I had to choose, you know? I'd still prefer Tom Cavanagh's Harry over anybody else, don't get me wrong, but HR? Nah. I'll take Julian as the "not really necessary, not fully integrated" Team Flash member, please. He's hilarious, pragmatic, he's not kissing Barry's ass and he's a fun addition to the team.

That said, I still feel Felton/Julian won't stay past the end of this season, but I feel Wally might not stay, either. HR too, for that matter. I have no idea who will die and who will betray etc, though.  I only hope Julian is not the bad guy, or he doesn't end up a) dating Caitlin and b) dying, just because both of these scenarios would be irritatingly repetitive.

Is Harry back yet? Can't he come back and stay forever? And can HR just go away? Please?

[immortalfrieza]

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

II'll take Julian as the "not really necessary, not fully integrated" Team Flash member, please. He's hilarious, pragmatic, he's not kissing Barry's ass and he's a fun addition to the team.

I think when one compares Julian to H.R. it becomes really obvious exactly what the real problem with H.R. is. Julian is comic relief in his own way just like H.R., but he's also useful to the team as a whole right out of the box and competent. H.R. on the other hand hasn't actually done anything of importance his entire time on the show and just causes problems like how he nearly got Cisco killed this episode, his entire purpose is just to stand around saying wacky things in a really REALLY pathetic attempt to get cheap laughs. H.R. would have gone over a LOT better had he actually had something to contribute to the team, and not down the line either but from the very beginning.

Oh Iris Iris Iris... She was doing so well and then she had to go catch Lois Lane syndrome. You know, when a reporter character decides to take insanely stupid outright suicidal risks for the sake of getting a story solely because they think the hero is going to save them all the time and as a result has no purpose but to get saved all the time. I hope Iris drops this fast and it stays gone because I actually liked it that Iris broke both the typical love interest and reporter mold by NOT having to be saved all the time like Lois Lane has to specifically because she didn't do really stupid crap and when she did need saving it was because of things beyond her control. Iris, confronting your own mortality is no excuse to become Too Dumb To Live.

For a so called speedster Barry has a tendency to be slow on the draw, but what else is new? Cisco risking his life to stop Gypsy and save H.R. was a decent enough way to get him to have his own moment in the limelight episode, but they could have done it better than just having both Barry and Wally be completely useless for no reason. At the very least, having Gypsy get the drop on them before they even knew she existed and incapacitate the two of them for most of the episode would have worked much better than having them both somehow stopped a woman that for all her dimension hopping superpowers still moves at perfectly normal human speeds and possesses normal human reaction times.

Edited February 5, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

 

That said, I still feel Felton/Julian won't stay past the end of this season, but I feel Wally might not stay, either.

I'm not sure what they would do with Julian, but Wally I think they'd have to ship him off to another city (or dimension?) eventually. Bump him down to recurring. I don't think they would have two speedsters on the show long-term, although I do like Wally as Barry's sidekick.

26 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Oh Iris Iris Iris... She was doing so well and then she had to go catch Lois Lane syndrome. You know, when a reporter character decides to take insanely stupid outright suicidal risks for the sake of getting a story solely because they think the hero is going to save them all the time and as a result has no purpose but to get saved all the time. I hope Iris drops this fast and it stays gone because I actually liked it that Iris broke both the typical love interest and reporter mold by NOT having to be saved all the time like Lois Lane has to specifically because she didn't do really stupid crap and when she did need saving it was because of things beyond her control. Iris, confronting your own mortality is no excuse to become Too Dumb To Live.

I give a pass for this time since she did bring Kid Flash as backup.

[ruby24]

That's a good point about Wally. I've been wondering that too, about his long-term status as Barry's co-speedster. For some reason that seems unlikely, although who knows, maybe not.

[waving feather]

I didn't see chemistry between Cisco and Gypsy. So far I haven't seen chemistry with the ladies they give Cisco. Cisco has the most chemistry with Caitlin, both as friends and something more if they choose to explore it. I hope they would down the line... Maybe for the last season. It's obvious they care about each other deeply and it would be a natural progression IMO. 

I am liking Wally this season. His excitement is infectious. He has improved since he stopped being an emo boy and is actually being helpful. 

Barry's light has dimmed this season. Not only because his power hasn't been of much use in defeating the bad guys but I just don't feel the same enthusiasm he had about serving the city like he was when he first started out. It's understandable but that was what set Barry apart from other superheroes to me. Hence, I've lost interest in Barry's storyline and Iris is not being awesome as usual. 

I'm more interested in Caitlin, Cisco, HR and even Julian. Speaking of Julian, I love how he was throwing truth bombs left and right. They should definitely keep him around. 

[BkWurm1]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:18 PM, Trini said:

After seeing this episode with Cisco as the main hero, I think they could have done Caitlin's Killer Frost arc better, or at least more nuanced.

Should have yes, but could have?  But she's a girl!  This is The Flash.  You must be confused with some other show, 'cause girls can't have nuanced and three dimensional stories on this one.  ;p

[waving feather]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Should have yes, but could have?  But she's a girl!  This is The Flash.  You must be confused with some other show, 'cause girls can't have nuanced and three dimensional stories on this one.  ;p

To be fair, Carlos is a better actor than Danielle. The killer frost arc was not written that well (I felt the same about this episode, actually) but the acting was also weak. She played most of the killer frost scenes without any subtlety. In my humble opinion, only. 

[zannej]

3 hours ago, waving feather said:

To be fair, Carlos is a better actor than Danielle. The killer frost arc was not written that well (I felt the same about this episode, actually) but the acting was also weak. She played most of the killer frost scenes without any subtlety. In my humble opinion, only. 

I have to agree. I mean, Danielle has greatly improved over the last couple of seasons (she was almost unbearable in season 1 and she was pretty bad for a lot of season 2, but not quite as bad as season 1). I don't know if it is skill level so much as what the director's tell her to do. But in the first two seasons, the only time her acting seemed good was when she was interacting with Tom Cavanagh. But now this season, Tom's acting is kind of weak. I think my biggest problem with HR is that there doesn't seem to be any nuance. It's all just silly stuff-- which has made me laugh-- but there is just something missing that was there with the first two iterations.

[Lady Calypso]

12 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Oh Iris Iris Iris... She was doing so well and then she had to go catch Lois Lane syndrome. You know, when a reporter character decides to take insanely stupid outright suicidal risks for the sake of getting a story solely because they think the hero is going to save them all the time and as a result has no purpose but to get saved all the time. I hope Iris drops this fast and it stays gone because I actually liked it that Iris broke both the typical love interest and reporter mold by NOT having to be saved all the time like Lois Lane has to specifically because she didn't do really stupid crap and when she did need saving it was because of things beyond her control. Iris, confronting your own mortality is no excuse to become Too Dumb To Live.

I do give Iris a pass for a couple of reasons. First off, Iris has not had her own journalist/reporter storyline. This is one of the first stories she's gotten that didn't directly involve Barry or Joe. This was all about her, so they were trying to show her recklessness after finding out she was going to die. That much is obvious, so they meant for Iris to do this stupid and reckless thing because she's struggling with knowledge of her death. She's already told Barry that she's not afraid of dying, but afraid of not being remembered. 

Also, this wasn't a typical damsel in distress story because she wasn't captured. She walked in there herself and set herself up to be in danger because she thought that she was invincible. She's been kidnapped before and she's never ever been the typical damsel. She's needed saving because she's human and her boyfriend/best friend, her brother, and her other friends are superheroes, but she's always done well in these situations. She still breaks these molds; but allowing her to have her own story sometimes requires stupidity and recklessness. Every character on this show goes through it. Joe has, Barry has more times than I can count, and even Cisco and Caitlin have. 

I'm personally just happy with Iris getting a story of her own. We can watch her deal with her death without Barry being the primary voice. 

[waving feather]

I like Iris doing her own thing too. But I hope next time when she and Wally have a mission together, she will not blindside him. What's the point of her going in there alone? She could have done the same thing with Wally by her side. I love the siblings team up and I hope that continues. Both Iris and Wally are often left out at the S.T.A.R. labs, so I like that they have their own thing going on now. Whenever Iris teams up with Barry, he over worries, whereas Wally is more chill about it. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I had conflicting feelings about Iris's storyline this week. On the one hand, I fully support her wanting to be more than Joe's daughter, Wally's sister, and Barry's girlfriend. Everyone should have their own identity independent from their various relationships.

But making a mark or leaving a legacy doesn't have to mean doing some big story for the newspaper, and it certainly doesn't have to mean risking your life and deliberately roping your brother into your scheme by asking him to steal information from your dad, accompany you to a dangerous location where guns are being stored, assume that he's going to save your life, etc. It was selfish of Iris to ask Wally to keep secrets from their dad and participate in her shenanigans.

As for her ridiculously reckless sense of bravado, maybe someone should explain to her that since you can always change the timeline with the choices you make, one way for her to change the future would be GETTING HERSELF KILLED BEFORE MAY 2017.

Even though we now know HR's reason for coming here, I still don't completely trust him. All credit to Tom Cavanagh for continuing to play HR as shady underneath all of his cheeriness.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Can The Flash Stop Himself From Being The Hero?

Cisco meets his match, possibly in more ways than one.

[AnaRow]

Quote

Not so much that as that he was afraid that Iris was pregnant out-of-wedlock (since she and Barry aren't married yet). I know most people shrug that off in 2017, but for those of us who belong to a certain generation, there's still at least a subconscious bias in favor of waiting until AFTER marriage to have sex, let alone to start a family.

I seriously doubt that applies to Joe. He's either a late baby boomer or early Gen X.  Plus he didn't seem to care that they'd moved in together. I think it was just more of the same discomfort he felt when Barry and Iris started kissing in front of him. Or it was just the idea that his daughter was asking him for advice on getting pregnant, which is just a weird conversation to have.

[jay741982]

On 2/1/2017 at 1:52 PM, mrspidey said:

You weren't.

I think Wally's increasing popularity as well as the fact that he is faster than Barry mean that he will be the one to die. Can't have him outshine Barry on Barry's show forever, after all. 

Don't think he will as he is Kid Flash. If anything I think he will leave CC eventually maybe Join the Legends. Though I'd love for Jessie Quick to join them . I think Joe is dying. Him, Julian and HR are the most expendable only considering the Fact that Barry Iris Caitln Cisco and Wally are big comic characters

[beanyk]

Very late, 'cause I'm catching up on Netflix:

"Cisco declines to deliver the coup d'etat"

I think the recapper means "coup de grace".

[johntfs]

20 hours ago, beanyk said:

Very late, 'cause I'm catching up on Netflix:

"Cisco declines to deliver the coup d'etat"

I think the recapper means "coup de grace".

Really?  I always assumed the recapper meant that Cisco decided not to go to Gypsy's world, overthrow the government and seize control as absolute dictator.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 2/1/2017 at 0:52 PM, mrspidey said:

You weren't.

I think Wally's increasing popularity as well as the fact that he is faster than Barry mean that he will be the one to die. Can't have him outshine Barry on Barry's show forever, after all. 

Late to the party, but I don't think Wally is faster than Barry is now. Barry's still The Fastest Man Alive.

There was a line of dialogue about how Wally was faster than Barry was at the corresponding point in Barry's development. (Presumably around halfway through S1.) 

But there's no real reason to think that Wally was, is, or will ever be actually faster than Barry is as of S.3.