S01.E13: Karma Chameleon

[Sandman]

On 2017-01-31 at 3:50 PM, blackwing said:

And I am still clueless about what red gold and green have to do with it.

I've always assumed that the colours of the flag of Jamaica are highlighted in the song because of Boy George's use of / debt to / inspiration from reggae.

[SoTheresThat]

36 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I've always assumed that the colours of the flag of Jamaica are highlighted in the song because of Boy George's use of / debt to / inspiration from reggae.

The Jamaican flag is yellow, green and black.

[Randomosity]

43 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I've always assumed that the colours of the flag of Jamaica are highlighted in the song because of Boy George's use of / debt to / inspiration from reggae.

 

6 minutes ago, SoTheresThat said:

The Jamaican flag is yellow, green and black.

Anyone remember "Pop-up video" on VH1? Maybe it's even still a thing; I was all about it in the 90s. Pretty sure they addressed the colors in pop-up Karma Chameleon, but I have zero idea what they said about it.

[CooperTV]

Google gave me this incredible article about Karma Chameleon and the Illuminati conspiracy, though!
 

Quote

 

Red, gold and green; red, gold and green

Note two of the three colors are red and green, the most commonly confused hues in colorblind subjects. They are also the traditional colors of Christmas, a holiday originally founded on the notion of generousity and giving, but since given over to the Gods of Commodity Consumerism. The third color, gold, which is clearly equally discernable to both parties is so obviously symbolic that it is almost an insult to the reader's intelligence to note that this verse is clearly a counterpoint on the failure of modern consumer culture to meet the spiritual needs of the participant. Everything is indeed for sale, and Steve (like his spiritual predecessor, Willy Loman) is being crushed by Fortune's Wheel, as evidenced by the events that spiral out of his control.

Of course, the repetition of the phrase within the line is simply to make the song catchy.

There are alternate interpretations that suggest that the colors relate to the mercurial nature of the chameleon's own outer coloration or that "red, gold, and green" is a veiled reference to the Rastafarian religion. On the first point, after being so lyrically astute, would Boy George be so damn obvious in the chorus? I think not.

 

[Netfoot]

Ites, gold and green (Red, gold and green) are the colours of the Rastafarian flag.

[Sandman]

3 hours ago, SoTheresThat said:

The Jamaican flag is yellow, green and black.

Whoops! Of course those are the colours of the Jamaican flag! Maybe I was thinking of the Rastafarian flag? ::slinks away::

Edited February 3, 2017 by Sandman

[maczero]

20 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Malcolm Barrett said on Twitter yesterday that there's more to Anthony's backstory that hasn't been revealed yet that explains why he was able to go back to those eras in seeming violation of the first rule of time travel as Rufus laid it down in the pilot and as Flynn has repeatedly restated it since then. In other words, the writers haven't forgotten the rule; they've just forgotten to explain to the rest of us why Anthony was an apparent exception to it.

On a related note, I could've sworn during the Lone Ranger episode I heard someone describe Anthony as young.  If anyone wants to confirm this, I believe it was mentioned during Emma's flashback.  My guess is that Anthony was rapidly aged due to a time travel mishap. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, maczero said:

On a related note, I could've sworn during the Lone Ranger episode I heard someone describe Anthony as young.  If anyone wants to confirm this, I believe it was mentioned during Emma's flashback.  My guess is that Anthony was rapidly aged due to a time travel mishap. 

That could lead into explaining that the scientists are still learning about time travel, which would allow for changes in the "rules" just like real life medical treatments change as new information becomes available.

[Camera One]

Just caught up with this one.  It didn't turn out to be as bad as I expected it to be.  I liked seeing some of the different combinations of characters.  The time travel part with Wyatt and Rufus had some entertaining moments, but it was mostly frustrating.  Rufus could have offered to help the bartender go their sister's, and Wyatt could offer to tend bar... problem solved.  I did feel badly for Wyatt at the end, and Rufus too when he saw that Anthony had died.

I wish Lucy didn't confront the Rittenhouse father right away.  She could have played him to find out more information.

[Randomosity]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

I wish Lucy didn't confront the Rittenhouse father right away.

An aside on the Rittenhouse father... In what universe do his genes combine with Lucy's mother's to produce someone who looks like Lucy? I know it's a small gripe, but man, they don't look ANYTHING alike. I appreciate shows/movies who at least TRY for familial resemblances.

[gibasi]

I don't watch the show live but record it.  I see it in the queue and wonder if I really want to watch it.  I do and always surprise myself with how much I enjoy the episode.  I really like Rufus and love his reactions to the time periods.  I thought that Lantner really sold me on Wyatt's story in this episode and felt so bad for him.  I really hope that this wasn't the end of Wyatt

[Norma Desmond]

On 01/02/2017 at 2:19 AM, methodwriter85 said:

 It also wouldn't do for Wyatt to sleep with the stew, even though he had way more chemistry with her than he does with Lucy, because the show seems to have predetermined Wucy as a thing despite the fact that they barely show any kind of chemistry with each other. It's so forced.

I absolutely  shiver at the thought of Wyatt and Lucy as a couple. They don't have any chemistry other than friends. I love this show but shudder at this OTP they're trying to force down the (few) viewers throats. Other than that, great show and I will be devastated at the inevitable cancellation.

[green]

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

Just caught up with this one.  It didn't turn out to be as bad as I expected it to be.  I liked seeing some of the different combinations of characters.  The time travel part with Wyatt and Rufus had some entertaining moments, but it was mostly frustrating.  Rufus could have offered to help the bartender go their sister's, and Wyatt could offer to tend bar... problem solved.  I did feel badly for Wyatt at the end, and Rufus too when he saw that Anthony had died.

I wish Lucy didn't confront the Rittenhouse father right away.  She could have played him to find out more information.

How?  The roads were closed according to the state trooper, right?  Who knows why?  Tree limbs, live electric wires in the road.  Like someone upthread said they called it a tornado watch but what we saw was more a prolonged hurricane scenario.  Anyway the trooper said they were all stuck at the bar there until the storm passed.

[Randomosity]

10 hours ago, green said:

Like someone upthread said they called it a tornado watch but what we saw was more a prolonged hurricane scenario.

While many tornadoes are sudden one-offs, there are instances of waves of storms with multiple tornadoes. It could be that one had gone through already (leaving roads impassable) but the threat of more persisted, thus an ongoing watch.

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, Randomosity said:

While many tornadoes are sudden one-offs, there are instances of waves of storms with multiple tornadoes. It could be that one had gone through already (leaving roads impassable) but the threat of more persisted, thus an ongoing watch.

Especially in Ohio.  They don't call that area a part of Tornado Alley for nothing.

[HoshiReed]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:10 PM, misstwpherecool said:

I get that but to get a security clearance or be cleared of not being a spy basically information like that usually has to be accounted for. They might even interview the mother especially if she's still alive. Vetting is supposed to account for stuff that could come back on you including a parent that might have undue influence over the child. The father could be a convicted criminal, that's not an issue per say but if one's father was a spy that's another story.

 

It all depends what it says on her birth certificate. In the first timeless she grew up believing her father was the same as her sisters. He probably was listed on her certificate, otherwise she would have asked why his name wasn't on it when she got her license or her passport. If this time she got another man to sign it then there would not be any questions when hired, if the father was blank then there is nothing that can be done. They can not legally question the mother for disclosure of that info just for a security clearance. The mother has a right to privacy and therefore can't be forced to disclose it. I mean how would that conversation go:
"Who is Lucy's biological father?"
What would you expect from someone who didn't list it in the first place but a lie or obfuscation
"I don't know"
What next then? You think:
"Please list the potential fathers, your sex partners from that year"
Would go over well?

 

 

As for this episode.

Wyatt should have let Lucy plan it. A woman would have easily come up with a no violence or threat of violence as backup plan or machoman cockblocking required, and a solution that is independent of bartender or rapist with bartender lie. (Imagine if he had succeeded in preventing the bartender hookup but it was the wrong guy) 
All he had to do was comment on STD of prior sex partner and claim infected man hired detectives to advise those possibly infected because his doctor told him to get in contact with them all to have them tested, give condoms and dose her with an EC claiming medication just in case and advise to see her doctor to make sure, blah blah blah AND (since EC is not 100% and she could ignore the abstain until you see a doctor advice and still not use the condom to protect the bartender/it could break) go back 12 days prior (which would probably have been within 5 days of the start of her cycle), tranq her and implant in her arm a BC, and leave the same day so he won't be in danger of encountering himself from the EC trip. This way, the EC and condom are backup in case the BC is not fully effective in time, inserted wrong, found and removed, etc. Do the EC/condom first just in case they can't make the BC trip. 

Sure you will piss off some, but that just means heated discussion at the water cooler.  This episode basically has Wyatt cause the death of a grown man in his crusade to abort a second (more than potential life in this instance as he was born and had a life so preventing conception is, in this instance, the same as preventing birth after conception and therefore qualifies as abortion. And yet no one has used that word as far as I know). Yet this story line holds less controversy than EC. If they had used EC and BC as part of the plot line the internet would have lit up like a Christmas tree. They already hit the controversy button with Space Race storyline and pissed off plenty who deny those amazing women extraordinary contributions so just piss them off again. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, HoshiReed said:

Wyatt should have let Lucy plan it. A woman would have easily come up with a no violence or threat of violence as backup plan or machoman cockblocking required, and a solution that is independent of bartender or rapist with bartender lie. (Imagine if he had succeeded in preventing the bartender hookup but it was the wrong guy) 

All he had to do was comment on STD of prior sex partner and claim infected man hired detectives to advise those possibly infected because his doctor told him to get in contact with them all to have them tested, give condoms and dose her with an EC claiming medication just in case and advise to see her doctor to make sure, blah blah blah AND (since EC is not 100% and she could ignore the abstain until you see a doctor advice and still not use the condom to protect the bartender/it could break) go back 12 days prior (which would probably have been within 5 days of the start of her cycle), tranq her and implant in her arm a BC, and leave the same day so he won't be in danger of encountering himself from the EC trip. This way, the EC and condom are backup in case the BC is not fully effective in time, inserted wrong, found and removed, etc. Do the EC/condom first just in case they can't make the BC trip.  

Lucy wouldn't have helped him plan anything.  She only acquiesced once she saw that she couldn't stop him, and even then, the first thing she did after he left was go straight to Agent Christopher and tell all.  Had she helped him plan the caper, not only would she have been guilty of aiding and abetting the the theft of the Lifeboat, but she also would have lost any plausible deniability she had that she could have stopped him.

As for the STD lecture, get real.  He was in 1983, an era in which AIDS was just beginning to emerge and was barely recognized as the health threat that it still is, even today (particularly since Reagan deliberately pretended that it didn't exist, or if it did, that it was justifiable as God's punishment for gay men).  STDs simply weren't taken seriously at the time -- and syphilis and gonorrhea were the two best-known ones, but despite the fact that everyone knew about them, nobody cared about them.  So commenting on the possibility of contracting an STD would have gone nowhere at warp speed -- she wouldn't have listened, and in fact she most likely would have told Wyatt to shut up and mind his own business.  And forcibly tranquilizing her and implanting something in her arm without her consent?  Why not just rape her himself so that she couldn't get pregnant by the bartender because she was already pregnant?  It's just as much of physical assault and violation of her body as that would have been!

[phalange]

4 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Lucy wouldn't have helped him plan anything.  She only acquiesced once she saw that she couldn't stop him, and even then, the first thing she did after he left was go straight to Agent Christopher and tell all.  Had she helped him plan the caper, not only would she have been guilty of aiding and abetting the the theft of the Lifeboat, but she also would have lost any plausible deniability she had that she could have stopped him.

She did that only because it's what Wyatt asked her to do, though. She didn't purposely rat him out. She was all ready to go with him, but he stopped her because he knew it would ruin her chance to get Amy back. He asked her to wait 20 minutes after he left to call so she wouldn't seem complicit. But Agent Christopher confronts Lucy since she had someone watching the house and knew exactly what time Wyatt left and that Lucy waited over 20 minutes to call. Lucy tells Agent Christopher she isn't surprised Wyatt stole the Lifeboat, only that he didn't do it sooner, and that she'd do the same.

[possibilities]

I don't know where you were living in 1983, but where I was, in New York and Massachusetts, STDs were definitely taken seriously and known about. I had to get a full screening before being allowed to register on campus for my freshman year of college in 1981. It was required of all entering students. We were also given a lecture about condoms to prevent inflections, as part of a required "new student orientation". It's true they weren't talking to us about HiV, but STDs in general were definitely being talked about and considered a serious issue.

[HoshiReed]

The fact that she would not want to listen at first is where the episode drama would come from, otherwise the sit down would happen too soon and we would still be at a 10 minute episode. 

The fact that the episode didn't shy away from the abortion of the killer AND the death of the father; the violation is not as bad and would emphasize that Time Travel to stop conception is a nonmedical abortion of a potential life. 

Get People Talking! You will have people who will be in the middle where Time Travel to prevent conception is morally okay while medical abortion is not and the people on both ends and a discussion as to why they believe that would be very enlightening. (My money is on it is okay to abort via stopping conception of a potential life to the same Pro-Lifers who support rape exemption and it would be interesting to see if I'm right). Couching an issue in another way can get people to see an idea from a different perspective and maybe get people to understand the other side better. Star Trek used the same trick to start a discussion on Racism with the Cherons.  

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't know where you were living in 1983, but where I was, in New York and Massachusetts, STDs were definitely taken seriously and known about. I had to get a full screening before being allowed to register on campus for my freshman year of college in 1981. It was required of all entering students. We were also given a lecture about condoms to prevent inflections, as part of a required "new student orientation". It's true they weren't talking to us about HiV, but STDs in general were definitely being talked about and considered a serious issue.

Not to mention, not long before HIV became the evening news - a different, incurable though not deadly, STD was on the rise and most people I knew were concerned about it - herpes.

[Raja]

55 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Not to mention, not long before HIV became the evening news - a different, incurable though not deadly, STD was on the rise and most people I knew were concerned about it - herpes.

I remember. Coming out of public school sex education the symptoms and the push get treatment for other STD's was perhaps the biggest part of the curriculum. Then the untreatable Herpes started to make the cover of Time and Newsweek. The message that I got was that if you were going to be sexually active then you probably would carry one of the herpes viruses. Life itself was a risk.

[legaleagle53]

19 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't know where you were living in 1983, but where I was, in New York and Massachusetts, STDs were definitely taken seriously and known about. I had to get a full screening before being allowed to register on campus for my freshman year of college in 1981. It was required of all entering students. We were also given a lecture about condoms to prevent inflections, as part of a required "new student orientation". It's true they weren't talking to us about HiV, but STDs in general were definitely being talked about and considered a serious issue.

Uh-huh.  And how many were really paying attention and/or practicing safe sex after the lectures?  There's a reason that HIV/AIDS became the scourge of the land in such a short time.

[HoshiReed]

Either way the plot could reflect the attitude of the time and area for her age. Maybe make the "made up" guy come from an aware and conscientious location and her from an area with the higher infection rate. Make her brush off, avoidance and obstinacy to discuss it a part of Wyatt's headache.

Edited March 7, 2017 by HoshiReed

[proserpina65]

On ‎01‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 11:25 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I'm iffy on their portrayal of the 80s. Granted, I was a teen and in a small town at this time, so it may have been different for adults in a bigger city, but their 80s looked more like a retro sitcom version and very overdone, not like what I remembered.

I was 17 in 1983 - this looked pretty accurate to me.

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I was 17 in 1983 - this looked pretty accurate to me.

I was 22 in 1983.  It was dead-on.