Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

I have literally been in multiple online conversations of these types where technically yes, the pro-TLJ person acknowledges the movie was divisive, but they then go on to dismiss negative opinions as being the work of MRA, alt-Right types.

What I almost never see is the basic acknowledgement of the many of us who didn't like the movie because of problems with its narrative choices rather than perceived politics. This is especially frustrating for people like me who think it was actually a huge step back from TFA in terms of representational issues. I LOVED TFA. It's the movie that turned me into a true fan of the Star Wars universe. But I am capable of acknowledging why people who didn't like it, didn't like it, and I am also capable of acknowledging that there is a lot of validity to the critiques. That's all I want in discussions of TLJ. That simple acknowledgement that there are a lot of understandable critiques of Johnson's choices.

I agree that people have reasons for disliking TLJ that aren't racist or sexist, but I don't think the choices made in the movie were racist or sexist either.

[Silver Raven]

On 12/24/2018 at 4:32 PM, VCRTracking said:

If you ask any person who's pro-TLJ  the movie if they thought the movie was 'divisive' they'd say yes.

Not me.  I don't see the movie as divisive.  I see people's  responses to the movie as being divisive.

[Zuleikha]

But people on your side of the discussion ignore people on my side when we point out how it isn't a flaw, how it works to tell a cohesive and interesting story.

It's not ignoring. It's disagreeing. I absolutely listen and pay attention to every new explanation someone gives for what they liked about the movie. Listening does not equal agreeing with.

And this quote is a perfect example of what I find so frustrating. Discussions about art shouldn't be a debate in which the goal is to persuade people that they're wrong. My subjective experience of watching the movie can't be wrong. It is what it is. I can be wrong about objective facts of the movie if I make a mistake about a line or a scene, but my interpretation is just as valid as anyone else's if it's grounded in the actual events of the film. I think I've learned a lot about the various ways audience members consume stories through these discussions, but that doesn't mean I'm going to invalidate my own way of responding to stories.

I don't think the choices made in the movie were racist or sexist either.

I think they weren't overtly racist or sexist, but I do think Johnson's choices were impacted by the collective history of overtly racist and sexist choices in storytelling. I also don't think he was capable of truly imagining the interiority of Finn, Rey, Rose, or Holdo in a way that was a problem for writing the middle story of a trilogy, but would be irrelevant to an original creation.

[Joe]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

 

It's not ignoring. It's disagreeing. I absolutely listen and pay attention to every new explanation someone gives for what they liked about the movie. Listening does not equal agreeing with.

And this quote is a perfect example of what I find so frustrating. Discussions about art shouldn't be a debate in which the goal is to persuade people that they're wrong. My subjective experience of watching the movie can't be wrong. It is what it is. I can be wrong about objective facts of the movie if I make a mistake about a line or a scene, but my interpretation is just as valid as anyone else's if it's grounded in the actual events of the film. I think I've learned a lot about the various ways audience members consume stories through these discussions, but that doesn't mean I'm going to invalidate my own way of responding to stories.

You're a rare breed among those who don't like TLJ. I still see many comments about how Star Wars is dead now. No one liked TLJ. Etc. I didn't like Solo, but I'm looking forward to ep IX. One weak entry, whatever you consider weak, doesn't mean doom and gloom. Star Wars survived three weak entries in a row, it'll survive this one.

Not everything I just said is directed at you personally. It's just what I've been thinking over the last year.

[slf]

While I wasn't wild about Rey trying to save Kylo Ren (though I get it) I did enjoy that throne room fight scene, it was well choreographed. I've really enjoyed all of the lightsaber battles in this trilogy. They felt very raw, which makes sense given that Rey, Kylo Ren, and the Knights of Ren don't have a lot of personal control, patience, and their training levels very dramatically with none of them having made it as far as a Jedi master or Sith.

I also got a kick out of Luke trolling Rey with the blade of grass.

Edited January 10, 2019 by slf

[Perfect Xero]

Not sure if you're saying they were or not, but the Knights of Ren are not featured in The Last Jedi, the people in Red armor that Rey and Kylo Ren fight are the Elite Praetorian Guard.

[supposebly]

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Discussions about art shouldn't be a debate in which the goal is to persuade people that they're wrong.

So much YES!

[shrewd.buddha]

On 1/10/2018 at 3:56 PM, afterbite said:

I'm hung up on the various places where logic and consistency were sacrificed in favor of looks coolness as places where this balance could have been restored with a bit more investment in the "makes sense" portion which I value more 

Upon trying to re-watch TLJ on Netflix, this is what re-ignited my disappointment and annoyance:

1. The First Order can track the Rebel ship (ships?) anywhere, despite hyperspace jumps.
2. Why can't the larger FO fleet (or ship) overtake the smaller Rebel ship? If a hyperspace jump would be too far ahead, why not jump somewhere else entirely, then back to a point within firing range? (See # 1 if you think they will lose them.)
3. The Rebels have 7 or so ships, but never attempt to consolidate personnel to different ships, based on available fuel, never attempt jumping a few ships in different directions to see if any can escape being followed. 
4. The two fleets are in a life-or-death pursuit ...  yet  side trips are taking place from both fleets (Finn&Rose to CasinoLand and back, Rey back from JediLand and onto the FO ship).
5. The Rebel fleet has some arbitrary <18 hour fuel limit (seriously?) - - yet Rey, in JediLand, is in a completely different time frame, unaware of their dire circumstances. Rey begins face-timing with Kylo - which appears to occur over the course of a couple of days. And don't forget that Kylo is face-timing with Rey while he and his team are actively trying to obliterate the ship of General Lea, his mother. 
6. Rey decides to leave JediLand in an attempt to confront and covert Kylo (Why then? Rey does not appear to know that Kylo is actively shooting arcing laser beams at his mom's ship.) Did Kylo give Rey his location? They only tracker Rey has is the one Lea gave her to find the Rebels (and Finn took). Upon arriving, how does Rey and Chewbacca not see the slow moving space chase? Why does Rey not contact the Rebel fleet to find out what is happening and how to help? Does Chewbacca just hover nearby while Rebel ships are destroyed?
7. The Resistance is effectively obliterated - down to 1 ship (M. Falcon) and around 20 people. (Yet people are smiling.) Could you imagine the American Revolution or French Revolution surviving if they had been whittled down to 20 people, a few horses and two wagons? 

In short: Forget all the character and political baggage, if this were a brand new, generic sci-fi-fantasy movie, I would have considered it mediocre based solely on its own illogical premise and inconsistent logic.

Edited February 23, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[Anduin]

The Resistance only has fuel for one jump, or to keep the shields up for several hours. If they jump, they're out of fuel with no shields.

Time flows differently on worlds strong with the Force. Look at Dagobah. It feels like a couple of weeks. But the Falcon limps from Hoth to Bespin in what feels like a couple of days. Furthermore, you can't cross interstellar space in that time in the real world. Surely something funny is going on.

Rey saw her teamup with Ben when they touched hands. She knew they'd work together. That's why she headed off.

Ben isn't the head of the military. Shooting things is Hux's job. And if she pulls off her plan, get Ben to turn, dismantle the FO from the inside, they'll stop shooting at the Resistance.

The Falcon is only one ship, and Chewie isn't as fearless as Han. He backs off and waits for the right moment, rather than diving straight in. He's probably discussed the plan with Rey, too.

Yes, they're smiling because they surviveded. In five minutes, it's all going to sink in. They'll mourn, and then do what needs doing next. But that doesn't make for a feel-good ending.

[VCRTracking]

Even if TLJ wasn't the first Star Wars movie that didn't have a lot of plot holes and illogic, plot holes aren't the reason people dislike a movie. Nor is lack of plot holes the reason for they're being liked. They're the reasons people can easily explain and use to argue something is objectively bad. But I like this video essay that asks and tries to answer:

Can You Judge Art Objectively?

Edited February 21, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:20 PM, Anduin said:

Time flows differently on worlds strong with the Force. Look at Dagobah. It feels like a couple of weeks. But the Falcon limps from Hoth to Bespin in what feels like a couple of days. Furthermore, you can't cross interstellar space in that time in the real world. Surely something funny is going on.

I think the easiest explanation is that the trip to Bespin took several months using sublight engines, which is plausible enough and allows Luke all the time he needs to train and make his hyperspace journeys.

The timeline in ESB is left fuzzy, which allows them to basically ignore the issue. TLJ has a plot point that demands most of the events of the film having to happen within a single day.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Perfect Xero

[Anduin]

28 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think the easiest explanation is that the trip to Bespin took several months using sublight engines, which is plausible enough and allows Luke all the time he needs to train and make his hyperspace journeys.

The timeline in ESB is left fuzzy, which allows them to basically ignore the issue. TLJ has a plot point that demands most of the events of the film having to happen within a single day.

It may be the easiest, but it's boring and not very mystical.

As for TLJ, Rey spends two nights on Ach-To. While the planet has two suns, we don't know its orbital pattern. It could have two nights within several hours. It wouldn't be Star Wars' first encounter with wonky physics.

Just had a thought. Those who don't like TLJ search for problems, those who do search for solutions. That's how it feels to me, at any rate.

But, PX, how could you make me go through this mental effort before I've even had my morning coffee? For shame. 🙂

[VCRTracking]

[VCRTracking]

Good points:

I wish more fans would consider this kind of thing.  I'm not trying to make excuses, justify his actions, or say that he deserves redemption but I don't think TLJ is "propping him up" and "taking attention away" from the heroes. It's not leaning into  "fangirl" thirst for a "Draco in Leather Pants". Giving Kylo this amount of depth is important to not just the sequel trilogy but the overall saga. I know some people aren't going to change their opinion of him. They still think he's the worst and just want him dead. That's all fine and good but you have to understand why the movies themselves can't. Of course they're going to try to show you his side. You can't have the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, the nephew of Luke Skywalker be an evil murderer "Just cuz".  Or that he's just a Vader fanboy. You can't have the primary villain, one of the main characters be that cardboard especially since the first three chronological episodes of the saga were spent explaining how his grandfather turned evil. You have to show some motivation and reasoning behind it. Even if it makes our favorite characters look bad.

Edited June 26, 2019 by VCRTracking

[andromeda331]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:16 AM, VCRTracking said:

Good points:

I wish more fans would consider this kind of thing.  I'm not trying to make excuses, justify his actions, or say that he deserves redemption but I don't think TLJ is "propping him up" and "taking attention away" from the heroes. It's not leaning into  "fangirl" thirst for a "Draco in Leather Pants". Giving Kylo this amount of depth is important to not just the sequel trilogy but the overall saga. I know some people aren't going to change their opinion of him. They still think he's the worst and just want him dead. That's all fine and good but you have to understand why the movies themselves can't. Of course they're going to try to show you his side. You can't have the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, the nephew of Luke Skywalker be an evil murderer "Just cuz".  Or that he's just a Vader fanboy. You can't have the primary villain, one of the main characters be that cardboard especially since the first three chronological episodes of the saga were spent explaining how his grandfather turned evil. You have to show some motivation and reasoning behind it. Even if it makes our favorite characters look bad.

I've wondered that but haven't really seen it brought up. Luke could sense the Dark side in Kylo but when did it start? How long had it been going on? Did he befriend Kylo before being known as Snoke? Given that Kylo didn't realize Snoke was the one manipulating him's and Rey's talks its possible he was doing the same thing with Luke and Kylo or just Kylo making him think his uncle saw him as a threat and would try to kill him. His massacre that followed was really bad he slaughtered Luke's students except for the ones that joined him. It had to be going on a lot longer for him to be recruiting students at the school. Not that it justifies offing Daddy later. But his anger towards his parents and Luke really seems fear base. 

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

But his anger towards his parents and Luke really seems fear base.

Yeah, after re-watching TFA and TLJ, it felt very much like Ben being manipulated from a very young age and being seduced into a cult (back in the 1980's, stories about reclaiming kids from cults was a big thing). That doesn't mitigate the horrors that he committed, but I think it does shed light on the mechanism of his motivation and does open the door for him to have an epiphany that what he worshiped and believed were carefully constructed lies.  

[Perfect Xero]

TFA explains in broad strokes why Kylo Ren fell, Snoke got to him and influenced him. When Rey turns the mind attack back on him she says that Kylo Ren is afraid of not being as powerful as Darth Vader, which creates the impression that he's generally been afraid of not living up to the legacy/power of his famous family.

Why Vader became a monster was never important to the OT, because Vader isn't the main character of those films. Lucas manages to convey some depth to Vader with a few lines and a few bits of great cinematography and physical performance from a man in a mask, but never feels the need to go in depth to make his reasons for going down the evil path understandable or sympathetic. This is because in the OT Vader's redemption isn't really about Vader, it's about Luke as a character and the type of Jedi/hero he's grown into. Vader is, ultimately, a supporting character in the OT.

Why Anakin fell was an important story in the PT, because Anakin is the main character and Lucas was trying to tell the tragic story of the rise and fall of a hero.

In TFA why Ben Solo fell isn't super important, what's important is that he did fall and the impact it has on other characters. Kylo Ren is a supporting character, not the lead. He's the monster for Rey to overcome, the son for Han to try to save, and the face of his oppression that Finn has to finally take a stand and fight against.

Why Ben Solo fell and making it sympathetic only becomes important in TLJ because Johnson decided to spend most of the film building up a redemption/romance plot between Rey and Ren, so that he could subvert it in the end to teach all those pretty girls who try to save bad boys a lesson. To do that he, effectively, had to turn Kylo Ren into the main character of the film and throw Luke under the bus to make his redemption look viable because TFA left Kylo Ren in a place where there was no clear path to redemption and no indication that any character involved (most importantly Rey and Ren himself) would be interested in his redemption. At the end of TLJ the Kylo Ren we're left with is very much evil "just cuz".

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Why Ben Solo fell and making it sympathetic only becomes important in TLJ because Johnson decided to spend most of the film building up a redemption/romance plot between Rey and Ren, so that he could subvert it in the end to teach all those pretty girls who try to save bad boys a lesson. To do that he, effectively, had to turn Kylo Ren into the main character of the film and throw Luke under the bus to make his redemption look viable because TFA left Kylo Ren in a place where there was no clear path to redemption and no indication that any character involved (most importantly Rey and Ren himself) would be interested in his redemption. At the end of TLJ the Kylo Ren we're left with is very much evil "just cuz".

God forbid it rise above the level of mindless entertainment and actually say something. The other message was that poor communication kills. However, I didn't see anyone getting the short shrift in the process. Everyone felt pretty well handled. Is it perfect? No. Maybe another draft could have helped, but not everyone can spend 15 years thinking about it like Fury Road, or borrow heavily from another movie like TFA. Even those weren't perfect. But it's pretty good, IMO.

As a side note, what did you think of Solo?

[ursula]

Finn wasn't well handled by a long shot.

[VCRTracking]

On 7/3/2019 at 3:37 PM, Perfect Xero said:

TFA explains in broad strokes why Kylo Ren fell, Snoke got to him and influenced him. When Rey turns the mind attack back on him she says that Kylo Ren is afraid of not being as powerful as Darth Vader, which creates the impression that he's generally been afraid of not living up to the legacy/power of his famous family.

Why Vader became a monster was never important to the OT, because Vader isn't the main character of those films. Lucas manages to convey some depth to Vader with a few lines and a few bits of great cinematography and physical performance from a man in a mask, but never feels the need to go in depth to make his reasons for going down the evil path understandable or sympathetic. This is because in the OT Vader's redemption isn't really about Vader, it's about Luke as a character and the type of Jedi/hero he's grown into. Vader is, ultimately, a supporting character in the OT. 

Why Anakin fell was an important story in the PT, because Anakin is the main character and Lucas was trying to tell the tragic story of the rise and fall of a hero.

In TFA why Ben Solo fell isn't super important, what's important is that he did fall and the impact it has on other characters. Kylo Ren is a supporting character, not the lead. He's the monster for Rey to overcome, the son for Han to try to save, and the face of his oppression that Finn has to finally take a stand and fight against.

Why Ben Solo fell and making it sympathetic only becomes important in TLJ because Johnson decided to spend most of the film building up a redemption/romance plot between Rey and Ren, so that he could subvert it in the end to teach all those pretty girls who try to save bad boys a lesson. To do that he, effectively, had to turn Kylo Ren into the main character of the film and throw Luke under the bus to make his redemption look viable because TFA left Kylo Ren in a place where there was no clear path to redemption and no indication that any character involved (most importantly Rey and Ren himself) would be interested in his redemption. At the end of TLJ the Kylo Ren we're left with is very much evil "just cuz".

If the OT had been left on it's own Luke would be the main hero of Star Wars an the movies would just be about his "Hero's Journey".  Lucas later wanted to make Star Wars saga about the "rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker" so he made the prequels.  Three whole movies set before to explain why Vader became who he is.  This retroactively made his supporting role in the OT more important. He became the endgame of Luke's "Hero's Journey" which is to bring Anakin Skywalker back to the light. It's because they didn't explain that much about Vader and his motivations in the OT and left his origins vague that they justified devoting another trilogy filling in his backstory. Now they could have repeated this with the sequels. Made it all about Rey but then we'd probably end up with another THREE movies detailing Ben Solo's fall, Episodes X-XII! A 12 episode series instead of 9! It would be a flashback like The Hobbit and Rey would be like Frodo, only seen in the framing bookend scenes! Before people here say there would be no audience interest for that, please realize Adam Driver is known as a much better actor than Hayden Christensen by the public, fans wanted more explanation on the rise of The First Order and Snoke and they could have gotten Harrison Ford back as Han and Mark Hamill as Luke and probably recast for Leia. Disney would have definitely have done it and the fans who dreamed about a Han/Luke reunion would have absolutely gone for it! Three whole movies about Kylo Ren showing how Luke, Leia and Han were responsible for his fall instead of just one that also shows that despite his elders failing him it's his own choice to stay in the Dark Side. So I'll take TLJ over the "Kylo Ren Trilogy", thanks.

Edited July 5, 2019 by VCRTracking

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Kelly Marie Tran singing You and Me (But Mostly Me) from The Book of Mormon at Miscast 21

 

[paramitch]

I rewatched TLJ again recently and still think it's fantastic. I cared more about Rose's sister in the first few minutes, the little boy at the end, and many others -- than I ever cared about any of the shallow newly added cartoon characters populating The Rise of Skywalker.

It did get me thinking -- I'm curious if any of those who vehemently disliked The Last Jedi for artistic reasons changed their minds after The Rise of Skywalker.

Because it just felt to me like The Rise of Skywalker was JJ Abrams's very pointed, heavy-handed cinematic "fix-it" answer to The Last Jedi (and specifically to those who hated it), and unfortunately for me (and many critics) all those wishful fixes made for a pretty bad movie.

But it also makes me sad. I loved The Last Jedi and was so energized by it. I thought it was thrilling film and a terrific Star Wars entry. The entire final battle was incredible filmmaking and acting -- and  the complex things it says about Luke will always move me so much.

So to never get closure on that, and to walk back so far from all of that character complexity, is disappointing. (And I won't even get into my disappointment at what JJ did to poor Rose.)

For me, The Last Jedi still earns its 91% Rotten Tomatoes critical rating, but it's a tragic entry because the trilogy fails the dismount so spectacularly with the third film.

At this point, I'm just happy to have "Andor" as a semi-corrective experience.

Edited September 20, 2023 by paramitch

[Perfect Xero]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:49 PM, paramitch said:

It did get me thinking -- I'm curious if any of those who vehemently disliked The Last Jedi for artistic reasons changed their minds after The Rise of Skywalker.

Because it just felt to me like The Rise of Skywalker was JJ Abrams's very pointed, heavy-handed cinematic "fix-it" answer to The Last Jedi (and specifically to those who hated it), and unfortunately for me (and many critics) all those wishful fixes made for a pretty bad movie.

No, Rise made me dislike TLJ even more.

Rise, flawed as it is, actually tries to grow things from the burned and salted earth that TLJ left them in, but Johnson left behind almost nothing of value because TLJ seemingly has no ethos or purpose other than to tear down the things he didn't like in TFA.

[baldryanr]

TLJ deserves some credit for at least trying something new and having some awesome visuals, but most of that something new sucked.

Finn - let's take an interesting character and completely waste him in an irrelevant side plot that soaks up a huge amount of screentime. 

Luke - a pathetic loser.

Snoke - let's dress him up like Hugh Hefner, then just kill him.

Holdo - I'll refuse to divulge my plan even though it's VERY obvious my maverick pilot is getting increasingly angsty and will do something stupid.

Leia - only ONE legacy character gets a spotlight in the movie, so into a coma you go.

 

[Fool to cry]

Most of the things people didn't like in The Last Jedi was rooted in story and character decisions made in The Force Awakens. For example TFA told us that Luke's Jedi school was destroyed by one of his students, his own nephew who turned to the Dark Side. This meant  Luke FAILED BIG TIME but we were distracted by the mystery of his whereabouts to fully grasp it. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Fool to cry

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

Luke's Jedi school was destroyed by one of his students, his own nephew who turned to the Dark Side. This meant  Luke FAILED BIG TIME but we were distracted by the mystery of his whereabouts to fully grasp it. 

Not to be obvious, but you could easily draw a line from Kylo killing Luke's other students to Anakin killing the younglings. The criticisms of Luke for "giving up" on his nephew never take the step, what Kylo did in response. "How could you possibly think Kylo would ever....oh. Well. Never mind, then." There could be the argument that Luke didn't see Kylo's fall soon enough, take preventative measures to either stop it or secure the safety of the other people he was teaching,  but putting those murders on Skywalker's doorstep is like blaming the Jedi for Anakin's slaughter of children.

[Fool to cry]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Not to be obvious, but you could easily draw a line from Kylo killing Luke's other students to Anakin killing the younglings. The criticisms of Luke for "giving up" on his nephew never take the step, what Kylo did in response. "How could you possibly think Kylo would ever....oh. Well. Never mind, then." There could be the argument that Luke didn't see Kylo's fall soon enough, take preventative measures to either stop it or secure the safety of the other people he was teaching,  but putting those murders on Skywalker's doorstep is like blaming the Jedi for Anakin's slaughter of children.

My post was about how the information given in TFA had already indicated Luke had failed. Obi-Wan blamed himself for Anakin because he was his student and Luke blamed himself because Kylo was his.

[Spartan Girl]

Kylo’s actions are solely on Kylo, but it’s understandable that Luke would feel responsible because he is a good person. Unlike Kylo, who blamed everyone else and took zero responsibility.

It’s why I loved the ending when Luke finally called him out and wasn’t going to bother trying to save him because he was beyond all that, and Rey closing the door in his face. At least until stupid TROS fucked all that up.

[Fool to cry]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kylo’s actions are solely on Kylo, but it’s understandable that Luke would feel responsible because he is a good person. Unlike Kylo, who blamed everyone else and took zero responsibility.

It’s why I loved the ending when Luke finally called him out and wasn’t going to bother trying to save him because he was beyond all that, and Rey closing the door in his face. At least until stupid TROS fucked all that up.

Luke told Leia when she said "Her son is gone." And Luke says "Noone is really gone." He didn't just mean Han. I don't think he thought Kylo wasn't beyond saving, just that Luke was the one to do it. Just like Obi-Wan couldn't turn back Anakin. 

I figured out the reason when we first meet Obi-Wan in A New Hope we don't think he's a failure. When he tells Luke how his student Darth Vader turned betrayed and killed the other Jedi including Luke's father at that point we think Obi-Wan just taught him fighting skills. By that metric, Obi-Wan must be a great teacher! 😂 Later in TESB do we find out teaching someone to be a Jedi also involves spiritual balance and having the proper emotional mindset. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Fool to cry