S01.E03: Mistress-New-Mistress

[bikebrh]

  On 1/14/2017 at 1:13 PM, Mari said:

Dorothy:  There was a comment made in the first pairing of episodes that talked about someone (can't remember what she was called without rewatching) being gone, and therefore no more witches would be born.

I've been just assuming that the person they were talking about was Dorothy's bio mom, and Dorothy is a witch without any training.  The funeral scene established that while the power is natural for them, it does require specific training.

Of course, you know what they say about assuming. . .   

Anna:  I didn't get the impression she was truly  loyal, so much as ambitious.  If she can prove her loyalty and usefulness, while undercutting the other Blue Hats, she'll gain status.  

West:  And, absolutely yes--West is interesting, but if she's going to stay interesting for me, she's going to have to move beyond damaged addict.  

Oh I'm assuming Dorothy is a witch too, but I could see the writers saying it was the Ruby Gloves that gave Dorothy the power.

So Anna's ambitious. That works much better for me than she's loyal to the Wizard she's known all of 2 sec. ;) Blue Hats! Great name; I couldn't think what to call them other than nuns or women in funny hats.

 

  On 1/14/2017 at 3:17 PM, bikebrh said:

I can say that Tip is

  Reveal hidden contents

not a witch, but Tip is a VERY important character you need to keep an eye on.

 

I'm sure you were just trying to be nice by answering my post, and I thank you for that. However, I wasn't looking for an definitive answer about Tip; maybe I should have worded my post differently. But I wish you had added a spoiler tag like I did it would have kept me unspoiled.

Sorry... I thought I was being vague enough for it not to be spoilery.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Emerald City Raises A Storm Of Questions

The Oz reimagining finds its groove, but does it make any sense?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Tip and Jack howling at the moon made me think that werewolves exist in Oz.

Maybe Ruby is there to make out with Dorothy?

Quote

Anyone else get "Once Upon A Time" vibes from this show?

Yes and no. Both shows share fantasy tropes and scenery chewing witches, but Emerald City is different in tone. It's much slower and doesn't preach hope or moral lessons. It's not necessarily darker, just more bleak. There's very little sense of good vs. evil. (While Once Upon a Time tries to be very black and white.)
 

Edited January 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

On 1/15/2017 at 7:48 PM, Mari said:

Ooh.  . . I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out, but you're right.

It's petty, but that's gonna bug.

Glad to help!  LOL

23 hours ago, phoenics said:

Anyone else get "Once Upon A Time" vibes from this show?

Not really -- this show is (so far) well-written.  (Well, both series offed a black woman with an off-handedness that was painful, but other than that, no.)

[AzureOwl]

On 15/1/2017 at 8:39 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I've been wondering about Mother South. We obviously have more magic and witches than just the Cardinal Witches (although they are obviously special/higher level). I'm wondering if South/Mother Witch is Just more a representation of fertility and magic. Not that she's the only one that can birth Cardinal Witches but that their power flows through her?

One thing that's been said a couple of times is that Cardinal Witches aren't hereditary. East's protector assumed Dorothy was East's acolyte.  They are supposed to take on an apprentice to Pass on their knowledge/spells/powers?

I'm Thinking Dorothy is leading towards a rebirth of magic Cardinal Witches in Oz.

One thing that I just noticed noticed is a pattern with the titles of the Cardinal Witches. Glinda is the Maiden of Northern Light, while West and East are both Mistress (of the Western Fields and Eastern Woods respectively) and to the South there's Mother. And in previous adaptions the witches of East and West have been portrayed as old crones. It might mean nothing but we should keep it in mind.  

Another thing to consider is the implication that the break in the birth of new witches in Oz is the result of Mother South's body not being recovered to perform the funeral rites. This might indicate that each Mother South is in possession of some knowledge or spell that facilitates the birth of new witches. She might no be their literal mother, but someone who is necessary for the birth to occur, in the same way that the Mistress of the East is necessary to regulate the weather. 

[iMonrey]

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Glinda is the Maiden of Northern Light,

Part of that might be because "Glinda the Good Witch of the North" is copyrighted by the MGM film, like the Ruby Slippers. You can have Glinda be Witch of the South, like she was in the books, but Glinda the Good Witch of the North an invention of, and the intellectual property of MGM or whoever owns the rights to that movie now (Warner, I think). Which is why Glinda was Witch of the South in Oz the Great and Powerful.

[rubinia]

I've been a fan of Tarsem Singh's visionary style since the REM "Losing My Religion" music video, and I can see glimpses of it in this show, but it feels like a much watered-down version of "The Fall" (his best movie IMO). It's like it gives me a taste and then doesn't quite get there the rest of the way. Plot-wise I feel like the show is on the boring side, sadly.

[Camera One]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Part of that might be because "Glinda the Good Witch of the North" is copyrighted by the MGM film, like the Ruby Slippers. You can have Glinda be Witch of the South, like she was in the books, but Glinda the Good Witch of the North an invention of, and the intellectual property of MGM or whoever owns the rights to that movie now (Warner, I think). Which is why Glinda was Witch of the South in Oz the Great and Powerful.

Which makes one wonder why they decided to make Glinda the Witch of the North, contrary to the Books.  Seems like these decisions are arbitrary, but I guess we'll see.

[AzureOwl]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Which makes one wonder why they decided to make Glinda the Witch of the North, contrary to the Books.  Seems like these decisions are arbitrary, but I guess we'll see.

Because the vast majority of the people watching the show will not even know that the books existed. Most people think everything started with the 1939 movie, so as far as they're concerned Glinda is the Good Witch of the North. 

You can add stuff from the novels without problems because people wont know the source. You can even drop stuff from the movie that you don't have the rights to and people will not complain. 

But put in something form the books that directly contradicts what was in the 1939 movie and people might get confused or pissed off. 

[iMonrey]

Yeah. This idea that the witches are all somehow related also comes from the movie rather than the books, and has been a recurring premise in most iterations and reboots of The Wizard of Oz. 

[call me ishmael]

Was anyone else wondering what was going on with East's blade when he was insisting that Dorothy had gone to the wrong place and that her mother's clothes were the clothes of an "interloper" brought by the wizard and that therefore she was an interloper?  If Dorothy's mom was Mother South she wouldn't have been an interloper.  But he seemed pretty confident of his accusation.

[withanaich]

The Wizard may have told everyone at the keep that he was forcing an interloper out of Oz, rather than Mother South. Or maybe Mother South isn't Dorothy's mother, the way we've been assuming, and she really was an "interloper." Whatever the case, it looked like the guard recognized the clothing as belonging to another realm and, therefore, that of someone who didn't belong in Oz.

[phoenics]

19 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

Was anyone else wondering what was going on with East's blade when he was insisting that Dorothy had gone to the wrong place and that her mother's clothes were the clothes of an "interloper" brought by the wizard and that therefore she was an interloper?  If Dorothy's mom was Mother South she wouldn't have been an interloper.  But he seemed pretty confident of his accusation.

Yes this confused me too.  And it wasn't the only thing.  

Did they ever say what happened to the Witch of the South?  Was she supposedly drowned with all the rest?  And what was the "place" that Dorothy went to?  Did it being snow-ridden have anything to do with the snow that fell later that night in Oz?  Did Dorothy somehow bring the snow back with her?

I need answers!

Maybe Dorothy's mom impersonated Mother South just like Dorothy tried to do with East?

I'm still convinced that the police at her mom's trailer were there to kill her, not help her and that's why that cop was about to shoot Dorothy too.  I bet they were from Oz.

I'm beginning to think the Beast Forever isn't natural disaster, because of the women who did the suicide ritual and were said to be possessed by Magic, presumably from The Beast Forever.

[aradia22]

I thought there were good moments in this episode but it wasn't as fun overall as the first two. 

Once again this show is taking on topics it does not know how to talk about (gun violence/physical abuse/gender identity/sex work). It's so wrong but I think it appeals to me in the way Degrassi is also terrible at taking on big topics.

Lucas was a little too moody and emo for me this episode. And I think Dorothy was a little damsel-y in response to him suddenly being more gruff and less flirty. Not into it.

Now that we know Anna is going to be a bigger part, I'm a little upset they had the choice between an Asian woman (Isabel) and a black woman (Elizabeth) and gave the part to the white woman. Though I guess making her mom a sex worker makes that choice a little loaded.

I wish Sophie from Leverage would come back. Dorothy just talking about Karen is not interesting.

West was great this episode. I think she has the capacity to be the over the top character I want.

Toto continues to be awesome.

The ending was a little disappointing. They sank that ship so hard. As with the Munj'akin Village, I'm not sure who should be offended by the Tip storyline but I feel like someone should be offended.

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I am finding myself more concerned about Toto's welfare than anyone else's.

100%. But I think Toto's smart enough to take care of himself. My hand is cramping too much to finish my recap tonight but I loved that moment where they were escaping East's castle finally and once they called to him he ran ahead. Like, I like you guys enough to wait for you but I'm not stupid enough to stay in the back and get hit by a piece of falling rubble.

I feel like they were torpedoing the Karen/Mother South theory by calling her the Interloper. Mother South wouldn't have been foreign to Oz and a servant of Mistress East would have known who she was. The lab coat makes me think Karen was some kind of doctor or researcher who came to Oz. Things are a little confusing though because the time period is off. Frank is a man of science but things still seem a little antiquated or at least steampunk-y like the monkey drones. But Dorothy is firmly in the modern world. Of course, it's possible there's a Narnia sort of flexible time thing going on.

Also, count me in on not being into the Beast Forever stuff yet. From a recapping standpoint, it's a PITA because I want to get all the relevant details even though they sound like complete nonsense. From a writing standpoint, it's annoyingly vague. It's coming across like a catchall for anything the writers want to happen. Oh, it's a Beast Forever. Sometimes it's fire. Or it can drown people. Or it can possess people so they commit suicide. And maybe next episode it'll possess someone so they just start spouting exposition. Wouldn't that be convenient?

[iMonrey]

I'm probably enjoying Tip's storyline more than anything else for the simple fact that it hasn't been done about a billion times already, like Dorothy's has. The stuff with the witches and the wizard isn't really grabbing me so far.

[aradia22]

My recap is up. I don't know. I enjoyed the episode more than I didn't while I was watching it but I was hard on it this week when I was recapping it. I guess the things I liked were not really related to the core plot of the episode. When you're talking about the plot, the flaws stick out more.

[xqueenfrostine]

Just finished watching the first three episodes of the series, and so far I'm cautiously optimistic.  The series has a lot of potential, but I find myself much more interested in the Witches/Emerald City politics part of the show than I am in Dorothy's story.  Lucas in particularly bores me.  He's nice enough to look at, but I can't bring myself to care about his mysterious backstory and I'm not all that impressed with the dynamic between him and Dorothy.  Every time they're on the screen, I just want to go back and spend more time with West, who is charismatic as hell.  I'm hoping my interest in them will increase the closer Dorothy gets to the Emerald City.

 

On 1/14/2017 at 2:47 PM, missysays said:

The waitress who walked up to Tip and warned him about covering up wasn't unkind. After her verbal warning, she gently and sympathetically touched Tip on his forearm. Also, the herbalist was also very kind in his revelation and warning to Tip about the true nature of the "medicine."

I was struck by that as well.  Given the severity of the penalty levied against magic users, I would have expected the herbalist to be a little more stern/confrontational with Tip than he was.  The compassion he showed instead was a very interesting choice for the show, and the sensitivity they've shown so far in handling Tip's confusion over his identity makes me hopeful for where they might take his story.

 

On 1/14/2017 at 5:22 PM, NorthstarATL said:

I assume even in Oz the difference between the bathrooms has to do with body parts and plumbing, which has nothing to do with social norms or feelings.

That seems like an unsafe assumption since the existence of separate bathrooms in public places is entirely about gender related social norms.   Different "plumbing" doesn't actually require different plumbing.   The men's bathroom may have some standing urinals, but a toilet is a toilet.  

 

On 1/16/2017 at 5:23 PM, KingOfHearts said:

 

Yes and no. Both shows share fantasy tropes and scenery chewing witches, but Emerald City is different in tone. It's much slower and doesn't preach hope or moral lessons. It's not necessarily darker, just more bleak. There's very little sense of good vs. evil. (While Once Upon a Time tries to be very black and white.)
 

This show is also much more committed to being a mystery story than Once Upon a Time, which told you what the entire story arc of its first season would be in its pilot.  I feel much less sure of where Emerald City intends to take its world and its characters now than I was 3 episodes into Once Upon a Time and I think that's a good thing.

Edited January 20, 2017 by xqueenfrostine

[jhlipton]

Just now, xqueenfrostine said:

I just want to go back and spend more time with West, who is charismatic as hell.

I am bored with the druggie madam of a brothel where the girls are all happy to work at.  Defiance (1st season) did it better.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 Every time they're on the screen, I just want to go back and spend more time with West, who is charismatic as hell.

I enjoy West too. She can chew the scenery, but not in a showoffy way. She's very much her own person with her own motivations, independent of strong alliances. I believe she'll function well as a gray character through the series.

[NorthstarATL]

7 hours ago, xqueenfrostine said:

That seems like an unsafe assumption since the existence of separate bathrooms in public places is entirely about gender related social norms.   Different "plumbing" doesn't actually require different plumbing.   The men's bathroom may have some standing urinals, but a toilet is a toilet.  

Still difficult for a woman to navigate a urinal. Separate bathrooms for the two genders were actually NOT the norm for a long period of history, and it's fairly odd that Oz, with its greater variety of species would mirror the real world in that way. Seemed an anvil more than a restroom.

[AzureOwl]

1 hour ago, NorthstarATL said:

Still difficult for a woman to navigate a urinal. Separate bathrooms for the two genders were actually NOT the norm for a long period of history, and it's fairly odd that Oz, with its greater variety of species would mirror the real world in that way. Seemed an anvil more than a restroom.

But are there a great variety of species? That was true of the books, but everyone we have seen so far in the show is human or morphologically indistinguishable from human.

Also, as part of it's steampunk aesthetic, the City of Ev has a distinctly Victorian flavor, which could account for the more regimented gender roles. Tip wasn't just new to the concept of separate gender restrooms, she may have been new to to concept of restrooms altogether. 

Remember than in addition to everything else, Tip and Jack are also a pair of medieval bumpkins literally walking into an Industrial revolution age town.

Edited January 20, 2017 by AzureOwl

[Fireball]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:06 PM, bikebrh said:

Sorry... I thought I was being vague enough for it not to be spoilery.

That's ok. Like I said you were just trying to be nice by answering my post. And half your post was pretty vague; it was just the whole

Spoiler

Tip isn't a witch

that I found spoilery.

[Fireball]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 7:06 PM, phoenics said:

Anyone else get "Once Upon A Time" vibes from this show?

Yes & no. Both are fantasy type shows, but they have different tones. I completely agree with KingofHearts analysis  

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 4:23 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Yes and no. Both shows share fantasy tropes and scenery chewing witches, but Emerald City is different in tone. It's much slower and doesn't preach hope or moral lessons. It's not necessarily darker, just more bleak. There's very little sense of good vs. evil. (While Once Upon a Time tries to be very black and white.)
 

I'm glad that I finally found a new fantasy show I had to give up on Once Upon A Time after

Spoiler

they tried to imply that Neal "just had to leave Emma in prison" and that Snow & Charming naming their son Neal wasn't creepy at all....

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Fireball said:

Yes & no. Both are fantasy type shows, but they have different tones. I completely agree with KingofHearts analysis  

I'm glad that I finally found a new fantasy show I had to give up on Once Upon A Time after

  Reveal hidden contents

they tried to imply that Neal "just had to leave Emma in prison" and that Snow & Charming naming their son Neal wasn't creepy at all....

I guess my thought was just that it was a show that reimagined a common children's "fairy tale" - even if the Oz books aren't necessarily fairy tales.  But I agree with your analysis too.  I just wasn't that deep, lol.

[JenE4]

If Dorothy didn't even find out that she was adopted until she was 12, why does she call her adoptive mother Aunt Em? Whelp, I thought you were my REAL mom, so now I'll just call you Aunt?! Then again, I probably just am misunderstanding what's going on. There's SO much exposition about that and the wizard and the witches and the beast, and so forth, that I'm not following the plot very well. But despite that, and from the little amount of the plot that I AM following, it's cool enough that I'm in...with the hopes that I'll eventually follow what's happening. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

57 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

f Dorothy didn't even find out that she was adopted until she was 12, why does she call her adoptive mother Aunt Em? Whelp, I thought you were my REAL mom, so now I'll just call you Aunt?!

Also, her adoptive father speaks Spanish, as does she, but is she actually Latina by birth? Only asking because of the earlier discussion about minority members of the cast.