Season 1 Episodes Talk

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Willowy said:

There's an article that agrees with you that the sex scenes are a big deal:

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Holden-Debbie-Sex-Scenes-Mindhunter-44148708

Well I was going to add as well I think the sex scenes I think are there as well as a counterbalance to the sexual depravity of the serial killers, though that was hard to say for sure after one episode, so I do agree with much of the article  

The main character is truly an opposing foil, it seems, at least right now, of the serial killers her interviews.  The straight and narrow, well mannered, respectful young boy scout working for the FBI to try and save hostages.  His sex life is an extension of the diametric nature of the characters her intrerviews

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 3:12 AM, Cheezwiz said:

Still not sold on the series, but I like the partner, and that montage sequence was most excellent.

The actor who played the coed killer was also very good - extremely creepy. However the rest is still leaving me cold. Hoping we see less of the girlfriend, and more casework.

He is my favorite character so far. 

I think episodes one and two would have worked best combined together as the pilot. 

[Bec]

I'm sure Holden will always have the mental image of Brudos masturbating to a shoe seared into his brain whenever he sees a strappy black stiletto heel now. That's pretty much the epitome of "think unsexy thoughts".

And why were they making out to "Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad"? Is this Debbie's way of telling Holden she doesn't love him? But she went to so much trouble to make the evening special... I'm getting mixed messages here!

[Bec]

I keep expecting it to be some creeper meowing like a cat and who's planning to grab whoever gets too close to that open window.

Something else I realized about the VW beetle - Debbie drives a beetle, that's probably the only reason it was at all significant that a beetle drove by in that scene.

[methodwriter85]

On 10/25/2017 at 4:32 PM, Bec said:

Funny how the fake story in the show seems much more realistic. No impressively stoic debate, just a lot of shuddering uncontrollably. Barely able to say "I don't know." It's not what really happened, but I love what they did with it.

Yeah, the end scene really worked for me. I liked how it played out- that Kemper was basically telling fucking with Holden's head by telling him that he sees each victim as being a part of him, and that Kemper could see Holden as another victim. which basically feminized Holden. It worked on the level that Holden, for a moment, had to put himself in the shoes of the women who were killed by these misogynistic fuckers. And Holden had done a lot of his interviews with the misogyny of the killers.

I don't think the girlfriend is actually going anywhere because she's supposed to be based on the real guy's wife, but I hope they reconsider. I just don't buy the relationship lasting anywhere past where it's already gone. It just feels like a relationship of convenience. I did kind of like that she DOESN'T actually play the part of the manic-pixie dream girl in Holden's life, just because she happens to look like one. The dude can't even go so far as to wear square ankle books while heels on them.

Kind of disappointed they didn't interview Gacy, although Gacy's crimes don't really hit the media until the end of 1978. I couldn't tell if we were still in '78 or if things had moved to '79. It's probably still 1978.

One thing I would really love for them to cover would be the Houston Mass Murders. It would be fascinating to interview two guys that were influenced into helping a serial killer get their victims and essentially becoming serial killers themselves in the process.

Edited October 27, 2017 by methodwriter85

[millennium]

This series helped pass the time but I didn't think it was anything special.   It seemed too self-aware.   My favorite parts were the music and the bold, screen-chomping graphics announcing BUMFUCK, IDAHO or wherever.

Holden was entirely unlikeable.   He went from noob wannabe to arrogant dick in just ten episodes.  

Anna Torv needs someone human to play off -- Joshua Jackson in Fringe, for example.   Holden, being unlikable, didn't fit the bill.

I don't know about season two.   If only the team would interview Hannibal Lecter (Mads Mikkelsen).

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, Bec said:

I'm sure Holden will always have the mental image of Brudos masturbating to a shoe seared into his brain whenever he sees a strappy black stiletto heel now. That's pretty much the epitome of "think unsexy thoughts".

And why were they making out to "Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad"? Is this Debbie's way of telling Holden she doesn't love him? But she went to so much trouble to make the evening special... I'm getting mixed messages here!

I thought that was an odd musical choice. And also thought Holden could just have been up front about it. 

[spaceghostess]

On 10/25/2017 at 10:04 PM, Clanstarling said:

Is this the one with the laundry room (getting them mixed up,sorry). Who goes to the basement laundry in an apartment building w/o pants or shoes? That just creeped me out, and I kept expecting her to get attacked. The free washing machines seemed weird to me too, but maybe that's an East Coast thing. My shared laundry in my apartment building at that time was coin operated. 

OMG, this--thank you! I couldn't believe she went down there like that, and yeah, I was always scrounging for quarters to do my laundry when I lived in my first apartment in Yonkers in the '90s. Beyond worrying about creepers and floor-borne illnesses, I'd pretty much convinced myself she was feeding a rat (or a colony of them), rather than a cat. Sure, she heard meowing, but c'mon: leaving food in a subterrenean building hole is going to attract roaches at the very least and, very likely, furry creatures that are rather less cute than kitty. She's lucky ants were the worst she had to deal with. The whole setup was so weird, it distracted me from the deeper messages we were, no doubt, meant to unpack.

[Clanstarling]

38 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

OMG, this--thank you! I couldn't believe she went down there like that, and yeah, I was always scrounging for quarters to do my laundry when I lived in my first apartment in Yonkers in the '90s. Beyond worrying about creepers and floor-borne illnesses, I'd pretty much convinced myself she was feeding a rat (or a colony of them), rather than a cat. Sure, she heard meowing, but c'mon: leaving food in a subterrenean building hole is going to attract roaches at the very least and, very likely, furry creatures that are rather less cute than kitty. She's lucky ants were the worst she had to deal with. The whole setup was so weird, it distracted me from the deeper messages we were, no doubt, meant to unpack.

I didn't even think about roaches and rats...shudder...

[Willowy]

Yeah I just kept thinking about murder. Was worried for her.

[Bort]

I was thinking that there was originally a cat but now it's gone because some budding serial killer in her neighborhood killed it.

[spaceghostess]

I watched all the episodes over about four days and liked it. Agree with the overall assessment that the HITG playing Tench was a standout. Anna Torv was perfectly fine in a somewhat thankless role, although I found her resemblance (to me) to Carrie Coon was a tad distracting at times. Holden was frustrating as hell from dweeby beginning to arrogant end, but I applaud the show for doing this with its "hero". That was a hard fall he took with Kemper; I hope it shakes him out of his dickish attitude. The worst part of the show for me was Debbie. Affectless and sardonic is an acting choice that should only be employed by extremely skilled performers; IMHO, Hannah Gross didn't pull it off. I was having trouble separating how much of the flatness was the character and how much was the actor, and that shouldn't be. The character herself was somewhat problematic in that, while I could see how Holden might be attracted to her combination of chilly intellectualism and hippy-ness, I couldn't at all see why she was into him, considering how much time she spent acting snotty and condescending. Still, I'd even have given that a pass if there were flickers of warmth or sincerity as a counterbalance. We saw the tiniest bit of that with Tench's wife (Nancy?), but it wasn't enough for me. I'm not saying female characters need to be sweet, cuddly nurturers; I just need some genuine human emotion--whether the character is male or female--on which to hang my hat. I also was kind of annoyed by Debbie's reaction with the principal's wife. She'd seemed to agree wholeheartedly that the tickling was creepy and wrong, yet she was super-judgmental about how Holden handled the situation. Meh, I guess we're stuck with Debbie; maybe she'll grow on me?

 

The killers deserve a separate paragraph, as every one of those actors hit it out of the park. Brudos was a standout for me, on par with Kemper. These performers must have been thrilled to get such a showcase. Wholly deserved, and congrats to them for brilliant work.

 

ETA: I just saw that the actor who plays Brudos is named Happy Anderson. Heeee!

Edited October 27, 2017 by spaceghostess
Happy!

[heatherchandler]

On 10/16/2017 at 8:21 AM, Yokosmom said:

I'm wondering whether they are going to show a certain chilling, real life event that happened between Kemper and the FBI agent.  I can't believe that they will leave it out so perhaps will show up in a later episode.  I think that Kemper is definitely the smartest man in the room in those interviews, and it shows.  

Real life comment:  I have a friend, who's husband was also around 6 foot 7, was abandoned by his father, had a horrific, abusive mother, and was very bright.  And you know what?  He somehow avoided murdering anyone or burying decapitated heads in his yard.  

I've seen most of the series, but I am curious about this... would you mind saying what event it was?  Maybe in spoiler quotes?

[heatherchandler]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

I was thinking that there was originally a cat but now it's gone because some budding serial killer in her neighborhood killed it.

Right?  And HE was eating the tuna!

(I think I have heard too many creepy stories...)

[Epeolatrix]

The certain chilling real-life event was that:

Spoiler

Kemper said, "If I went in apeshit in here, you'd be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't you? I could screw your head off and place it on the table to greet the guard."

According to Ressler, he tried to reason with Kemper, assuring that there would be trouble if anything untoward happened. Kemper replied, "What would they do? Cut off my TV privileges?"

Ressler began hinting that he might be armed, telling Kemper that FBI men might be given special privileges for carrying weapons into a prison. When asked what the weapon might be, Ressler hedged, saying, "I'm not going to give away what I might have or where I might have it on me." Kemper pressed the issue, and finally asked, "[Is it] martial arts then? Karate? Got your black belt? Think you can take me?" The mood had shifted, and Ressler took this as an opportunity to begin a conversation about martial arts.

Finally, a guard appeared to allow Ressler to leave and return Kemper to his cell. As he was exiting the room, Kemper touched Ressler's shoulder and said, "You know I was just kidding, don't you?"

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Violet Impulse

[Hootis]

I like all of the characters less now than at the beginning, excepting the boss.

Ford is making real headway in manipulating the suspects / serial killers to get what the unit supposedly wants, which is real data.  He keeps fucking everything up by breaking trust with the group.  He surprises Tench in the interviews.  He suborns the new guy.  He lies to Dr. Carr.  He lies to his boss, lies to the oversight guys....he needs to be UP FRONT with them instead of laying landmines.  He's sabotaging himself.

Tench is acting way too skeptical this far along.  Like he's not fully on board with this new thing.  It's like two different characters; when they're brainstorming, he's right there with Ford, but when they're back with the unit he's Brad Pitt in Se7en.  They're all nutbags, no other explanation needed!  

Dr. Carr is dismissing outright the need to make a subject or suspect comfortable to get them to talk.  If you're trying to get any stranger - not a narcissist, just a normal person - to do you a favor (the questionnaire), you would butter them up a little first.  She should know better.

[Captanne]

3 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Anna Torv was perfectly fine in a somewhat thankless role, although I found her resemblance (to me) to Carrie Coon was a tad distracting at times.

So glad you saw that, too!!  I kept forgetting to mention it.

 

Quote

The worst part of the show for me was Debbie. Affectless and sardonic is an acting choice that should only be employed by extremely skilled performers; IMHO, Hannah Gross didn't pull it off. I was having trouble separating how much of the flatness was the character and how much was the actor, and that shouldn't be. The character herself was somewhat problematic in that, while I could see how Holden might be attracted to her combination of chilly intellectualism and hippy-ness, I couldn't at all see why she was into him, considering how much time she spent acting snotty and condescending. Still, I'd even have given that a pass if there were flickers of warmth or sincerity as a counterbalance. We saw the tiniest bit of that with Tench's wife (Nancy?), but it wasn't enough for me. I'm not saying female characters need to be sweet, cuddly nurturers; I just need some genuine human emotion--whether the character is male or female--on which to hang my hat. I also was kind of annoyed by Debbie's reaction with the principal's wife. She'd seemed to agree wholeheartedly that the tickling was creepy and wrong, yet she was super-judgmental about how Holden handled the situation. Meh, I guess we're stuck with Debbie; maybe she'll grow on me?

Praise be.  Spot on assessment. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Captanne

[pfk505]

Gonna comment here before I watch the last episode. I thought the show started reasonably well and has picked up significant steam as it's gone on. One of the problems is obviously the slightly cliche/manufactured drama eluded to in @marys1000's post above (and elsewhere in earlier episode threads). As tedious as that is, though, making Holden the underdog has made him infinitely more appealing for me. Ever since the episode with the tickler (7?) I have been a huge Holden fan. The show is setting up this conflict on purpose and its not entirely organic but it's working for me 100%.

[Bort]

20 hours ago, Hootis said:

Dr. Carr is dismissing outright the need to make a subject or suspect comfortable to get them to talk.  If you're trying to get any stranger - not a narcissist, just a normal person - to do you a favor (the questionnaire), you would butter them up a little first.  She should know better.

Carr knew that and was accepting of it. The problem she was having was that A: Ford would start off-book, which was fine to open the lines of communication, but then never get ON-book and use the questionnaire. And B: that he redacted his off-color opening salvo with Speck and lied about it, thereby blindsiding her.

[Holden Ford]

On 10/14/2017 at 8:39 AM, Penman61 said:

Many complaints, and a few questions:

• Is this assumed to be a continuing series?  Because that's the only way I can justify all the BTK vignettes that never connected to our main characters.
• Is Holden actually dying, because of something Thickglasses did when he hugged him?  Or is Holden just having a severe attack of My-Theories-Are-All-Wrongitis?
• Whoever casts the fabulous Lena Olin and then puts her in just a single 3-minute scene should be brought before a tribunal in The Hague.
• Anna Torv grew on me in Fringe, where, over multiple seasons, characters, and timelines, we got to see behind the default flat affect.  But in this series, we never got behind that.   

1. I was left a little upset that the BTK vignettes didn't collimate at the end, but I see a second season in the making. 

2. This an interesting idea. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a simple panic attack, but also with how twisted and intelligent Kempler is, that he didn't find some kind of way to poison/ stab/ etc Holden. In the end though, my gut goes with he had a panic attack. That last scene in the hospital had me verbally saying "get out of there."

Reading some of the other posts, I want to give my two cents.

I feel like the whole tuna can relationship represents a longing for companionship. She just chose a career matter over a relationship. No matter how hard headed some of us are, I think she wanted to connect with someone(thing). Its hard to connect with co workers cause then business gets mudded. She is in a new town, work is here life and takes up her time. Connection to anything is better than nothing.

Those who talked about Tench nailed it. Not a lot of mystery here in my opinion. I think he basically embodied a deeper story that was already playing in the background. Not to give an excuse to absent fathers, but I think his story shines a light on the idea that even if we know that absent fathers play a role in kids and mental illness early or later in life, does knowing really make a difference in the outcome if not applied through professional help and understanding?

During the middle of the show when we really saw Tench and how he deals with his son's behavior, I had a crazy idea that maybe the BTK killer was his son grown up and we were seeing him as an adult. But I doubt that is true. Fun to think it would be that twisted though.

[Epeolatrix]

Quote

Is this assumed to be a continuing series?  Because that's the only way I can justify all the BTK vignettes that never connected to our main characters.

Is Holden actually dying, because of something Thickglasses did when he hugged him?  Or is Holden just having a severe attack of My-Theories-Are-All-Wrongitis?

It was originally conceived as having five seasons. Season Two's main case is the Atlanta Child Murders (1979 - 1981). BTK wasn't caught until 2005.

Probably a panic attack because he got bear-hugged by his new pal Ed, a giant serial murderer who could have easily killed him just then with little to no repercussions.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Violet Impulse

[DrSpaceman73]

I friend of mine grew up in Wichita and actually knew Dennis Rader.  I have to ask him if he has watched this show. 

[pfk505]

Overall I thought the series was incredibly strong and I'm glad to hear it will return.

I thought it started slow and deliberate, which was fine, but it didn't really grab me until the inter-team conflict started to ramp up around episode 7. Making Holden the persecuted underdog was a good move IMO and made me care a whole lot more about the character. I was luke warm on him up until then, but ended the series 100% Team Holden. Groff made me fully believe and buy into the fact that Holden could get what was required where the others (i.e. the fucking questionnaire) couldn't.

I'll just add that I love Anna Torv. Fringe was a magnificent series and definitely a showcase for what she can do. I don't like the Carr character much so far but I'm so glad Torv is on the show.

[Lady Calypso]

It's nice to get more information on our three main characters. I liked the information about Wendy's personal life. Honestly, since I've been convinced of Holden having feelings for Wendy and assumed that they might head down that route, it's interesting that we got to meet Wendy's girlfriend, even if it was only briefly before Wendy moved to Virginia. I do assume that we will see Wendy's girlfriend again. They left things rather abruptly with them, so it's unclear how they really broke things off.

I'm definitely hoping that Trench's son isn't some growing serial killer. Being autistic would make some sense, and it would be completely understandable why nobody's figured it out. In that time, autism wasn't well known at all. 

I also understand the DA's reasoning for not trying to convict all three. It's very unfortunate that it had to play out that way, and it's definitely more of a loss rather than a win for Holden and Trench, but the evidence is circumstantial so they'd have to convince the jury. 

[Lady Calypso]

Brudos was rightfully creepy. I would have been surprised if he hadn't have gotten to Holden. That shoes scene was definitely disturbing. I am also confused by the song choice with Holden and Debbie, but maybe she just really likes the song. Also, in the shoe store scene, when the sales associate told her that she went up half a shoe size, my immediate thought was that she's pregnant. 

I also would never go into the public laundry room with no pants or shoes. Even in 1977, though I wasn't even born then. It would just feel unsanitary and gross to me. 

A really good scene with Tench and his wife about his work but also about their son.

[Clanstarling]

12 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, in the shoe store scene, when the sales associate told her that she went up half a shoe size, my immediate thought was that she's pregnant. 

I also would never go into the public laundry room with no pants or shoes. Even in 1977, though I wasn't even born then. It would just feel unsanitary and gross to me. 

I'd forgotten about the shoe size - I had the same thought (my feet never did go back to their old size).

I was an adult in 1977 - and I would have been - at a minimum - nervous to go down there alone even if I were fully clothed.  Thankfully, my apartment laundries were ground floor and had open doors and clear windows. Yes to the unsanitary and gross.

[Lady Calypso]

Seriously, what is with the laundry room cat scenes? It cannot just be about a cat, right? I feel like it's either trying to show us how lonely Wendy is, or it's important. 

I also noted the random shot of the beetle driving down the street before Debbie pulled up. For a moment, I thought that it was supposed to be our cold opening killer. But that wouldn't make sense, so I dismissed it.

Man, I really want a resolution to the Child Tickler, though maybe we really did get one with the school board thinking about letting him go. I'm really with Holden on this one. The guy's going to eventually escalate, and his way of keeping the kids compliant is with the money. He needs to be stopped, especially since he's blatantly disrespecting authority because he's deflecting. 

Holden really is too married to his work. It's clearly affecting his relationship with Debbie. She told him that she needed to study and he didn't listen. I can see that they're probably heading for a break-up, even if it's just temporary. Though, now with all this constant talk about Holden having kids (three people have asked him in the last two episodes), I'm still leaning toward Debbie being pregnant. I'm willing to be wrong. 

Holden does seem to be spiraling into something. I can't blame Wendy and Bill for telling him to stop. 

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, the issue with this new guy manufactured drama was that Holden even predicted that he was going to cause trouble and that they couldn't just trust him. Why Holden didn't just take the tape and burn it himself is beyond me.

I'm getting the issue with Wendy. She can judge Bill and Holden all she wants, but she doesn't do what they do. Like Holden told New Guy last episode, it's much different to actually meet with these serial killers and hear their stories in person. She can listen to tapes and testimonials all she wants, but she simply doesn't have the field experience. 

I kind of enjoyed the interrogation scene with Holden and Speck. Speck seemed very closed off and unwilling to talk, but Holden seemed to hone in on that and found a way. I really enjoyed the back and forth. David Fincher did a really good job directing the scene. 

I did agree with Bill that Holden's attitude would come back to bite him. I'm not sure what it would take to get Holden to deviate from his own behaviour. Perhaps only an endangerment of his own life, as his methods can piss people off. 

The scene with Mrs. Wade and Holden? Woman, your husband is the problem here, not Holden. Her going to his apartment was all kinds of wrong. It goes to show that maybe that family is screwed up. But that's just my feelings on it. 

[Lady Calypso]

I don't think I'm in love with the series, but it took me time to really grow to like and appreciate what this series has to offer. I think that Holden took some getting used to, but I get now that he's supposed to be mostly unlikeable but also very savvy with the way he gets serial killers to talk. He has a method that works but his overall attitude and the way he treats people and manipulates is wrong. He does what he can to elicit the results that he needs, but he does it for his own selfish gains, without consulting the people around him. His character has a whole lot of layers, many that people wouldn't agree with, but that's what took me so long to figure out and get on board with. But now I fully appreciate Jonathan Groff's ability to showcase those layers. I appreciate that he let the audience grow some kind of hatred or annoyance with Holden by this finale. I definitely didn't like him all that much, and thought his character grew into a smug, unlikeable prick....but one who's good at what he wants to accomplish. 

But that end scene with Kemper was powerful and got me to feel sympathy for Holden. That fear and complete terror of what he's been doing was portrayed very well by Groff. That was excellent acting for both actors. Cameron Britton did an excellent job as Ed Kemper, and it seems like he'll be around for a second season, which is awesome. I do think this is a turning point with Holden. I'm not sure in what way he will change, but there seems to be a new path he'll take for season two. Which, you know, is good because he needs to alter his methods so that he's working with his team, rather than them all disagreeing and creating a divide.

Which is why I think Holden went to see Kemper in the first place. He lost his girlfriend, who he had been treating fairly poorly, he lost his friendship with Bill outside of their professional relationship, and his risk of losing his job with the FBI for the way he handled things with his deceptions. I do think what he was doing professionally was getting results, but in order to use those results, he needed better communications with everyone else. Because, at the end of the day, it's not just about him and that was Holden's downfall. His ego got in the way, and that's why he ended up where he did by this end. 

I do actually find myself interested in season 2. I didn't think I would continue watching a couple weeks ago, but somewhere around episode 4 is when I started to change my mind, but it wasn't until these last three episodes that made me realize I was hooked to an extent. 

Plus, I love Bill Tench and liked some of Wendy Carr's contributions. I still think she needs development that wasn't in this season. It's not just Holden that needs to grow and change; it's others too. 

In terms of Debbie, I think she'll be back but I wish she wasn't. Holden treated her terribly, they didn't really work well together, and Holden is still too dedicated to his work. 

[Irlandesa]

On 10/28/2017 at 1:17 PM, Holden Ford said:

I feel like the whole tuna can relationship represents a longing for companionship.

I'll post this article in the media thread too but Fincher did give an answer to the tuna/cat question.

Spoiler

Basically, the cat is dead--killed by a potential future serial killer in her building.

Yeah, I didn't get that.

[Irlandesa]

Fincher answers the cat question.

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/anna-torv-mindhunter-netflix-david-fincher-cat-1201891500/

[Bort]

3 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I'll post this article in the media thread too but Fincher did give an answer to the tuna/cat question.

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically, the cat is dead--killed by a potential future serial killer in her building.

Yeah, I didn't get that.

I did, I posed that theory in whatever episode thread it occurred in.

[Cheezwiz]

Holy Crap, @Violet Impulse! I think that real-life incident is even creepier than what they wrote into the show!

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, kariyaki said:

I did, I posed that theory in whatever episode thread it occurred in.

Kudos.  But that is, statistically speaking, really fucking annoying if a key person on the 3-person newly-minuted serial killer profiler task force just happens to has a serial killer LIVING IN HER BUILDING RIGHT UNDER HER NOSE OMG YOU GUYZ!?!!

 

Quote

while I could see how Holden might be attracted to her combination of chilly intellectualism and hippy-ness, I couldn't at all see why she was into him, 

A number of posters have said some version of this.  Has everyone else forgotten the extended cunnilingus scene?  Maybe a bit on the nose (!) but I thought the purpose of that scene was to explain a great deal about what specific charms Holden holds for Debbie.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Penman61

[Captanne]

It's an outdoor cat -- possibly stray, possibly feral.  (Possibly Binky who is owned by an apartment dweller who can't be bothered with a litter box.)  Either way, the life expectancy of an outdoor cat plummets when compared to an indoor pet.  (Google will help there.  It should take less time than typing this sentence.)  

I didn't feel at all safe suspecting it was killed by a potential serial killer in her building.

The probability is vastly higher that it lost a fight with a raccoon. 

[Bort]

17 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Kudos.  But that is, statistically speaking, really fucking annoying if a key person on the 3-person newly-minuted serial killer profiler task force just happens to has a serial killer LIVING IN HER BUILDING RIGHT UNDER HER NOSE OMG YOU GUYZ!?!!

Statistically, yeah, it's pretty unlikely. The "right under her nose" part I don't have a problem with. Most people don't really know their neighbors, especially Carr as she hasn't struck me as sociable. She probably goes to work, comes home and... works some more.

[cpcathy]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:38 PM, Bec said:

I'm sure Holden will always have the mental image of Brudos masturbating to a shoe seared into his brain whenever he sees a strappy black stiletto heel now. That's pretty much the epitome of "think unsexy thoughts".

And why were they making out to "Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad"? Is this Debbie's way of telling Holden she doesn't love him? But she went to so much trouble to make the evening special... I'm getting mixed messages here!

 

Am I high or was the song they were making out to "Kiss You All Over" by Exile? I don't remember any song by Meatloaf.

[Bec]

We see them making out to "Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad", then Debbie goes off to change into sexy lingerie and put a new record on the player, so "Kiss You All Over" is playing when she comes back into the room.

[Bec]

23 hours ago, Penman61 said:

A number of posters have said some version of this.  Has everyone else forgotten the extended cunnilingus scene?  Maybe a bit on the nose (!) but I thought the purpose of that scene was to explain a great deal about what specific charms Holden holds for Debbie.

Yep, there's a lot to be said for a man who's eager to please and takes directions well in the bedroom. Plus she did say he's smart and nice (and devastating, heh) when he straight-up asked her why she's with him. I think she meant it, even if he wasn't thrilled by that answer. Also... look at him. If somebody had to get naked on the show, I'm sure glad one of them is him, and it's not only the women getting naked like on some other shows. Hee!

[Fex]

On 10/29/2017 at 3:22 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, the issue with this new guy manufactured drama was that Holden even predicted that he was going to cause trouble and that they couldn't just trust him. Why Holden didn't just take the tape and burn it himself is beyond me.

This drove me crazy! Not only because they know perfectly well that new guy wasn't trustworthy in this deceit. Why didn't they just do it immediately? When they were told to burn the tape, it was still in the tape recorder. So they decided to take it out, put back in the box, and the box back in new guy's desk? The whole was ridiculous.

[marys1000]

10 hours ago, Fex said:

This drove me crazy! Not only because they know perfectly well that new guy wasn't trustworthy in this deceit. Why didn't they just do it immediately? When they were told to burn the tape, it was still in the tape recorder. So they decided to take it out, put back in the box, and the box back in new guy's desk? The whole was ridiculous.

Exactly!!!

[marys1000]

So the cat being killed by a future serial killer is pointing out another thing they don't know yet about serial killers.  That they often start with animals.   Good writing. 

[Bort]

5 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

So the cat being killed by a future serial killer is pointing out another thing they don't know yet about serial killers.  That they often start with animals.   Good writing. 

They don't know that? I mean, in Kemper's interview, he said that he started with animals, but have they not interviewed enough of them yet to pick up that pattern? I can't remember if any of the others mentioned that.

[marys1000]

I don't  know that for a fact but since they've pretty much just started I don't think it would have been a solid tell yet.  

This article - which by the way is long with lots of good background information on profiling,  the FBI starting profiling, the NYC psychologist who sort of started it etc. 

mentioned Douglas mentioning animal killing in the early 80s.  

P.S.  Re the psychologist profiler connecting cutting a movie theater seat to insert a pipe bomb as a man inserting something into a woman's privates - well I don't think I will ever understand men if that is true.  In a movie theater wouldn't that just be the practical thing to do? 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/11/12/dangerous-minds

[Pixel]

Did I miss something? Did Holden ever even address his girlfriend cheating on him?

[Captanne]

It was never made clear and I don't think it was addressed until the breakup and then only BY the breakup.  Personally, I'm not convinced this show really wanted the viewer to get all wrapped up in the soap opera.  I with they had just typed, in large capital letters, "she cheated on him", and moved on but they didn't.

[Captanne]

I think it's Douglas who came up with bed wetting, petty arson, small animal killing -- these are all childhood indicators of serious adulthood problems to come.  Dahmer exhibited just about every last one.

[calvinshobbes]

12 hours ago, kariyaki said:

They don't know that? I mean, in Kemper's interview, he said that he started with animals, but have they not interviewed enough of them yet to pick up that pattern? I can't remember if any of the others mentioned that.

They know about killing animals as a sign to look out for. In the principal episode, Holden went back and forth with the principal on what he could say to the students about deviant behavior. He wanted  kids to look out for their peers who harm/kill animals but the principal forced him to say be mean to animals. The principal had no qualms with saying some parents may get concerned if their children get back to them about what they heard from Holden but rejected the concerns when parents complained about his behavior. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by calvinshobbes

[marys1000]

7 hours ago, calvinshobbes said:

They know about killing animals as a sign to look out for. In the principal episode, Holden went back and forth with the principal on what he could say to the students about deviant behavior. He wanted  kids to look out for their peers who harm/kill animals but the principal forced him to say be mean to animals. The principal had no qualms with saying some parents may get concerned if their children get back to them about what they heard from Holden but rejected the concerns when parents complained about his behavior. 

Oh yes!  Good memory!

[Pixel]

Yeah, I wasn't exactly invested in that relationship, but it was just jarring to see him catch her with that Patrick guy, and then the next episode they're having dinner at his place like nothing ever happened.