S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains

[Danny Franks]

It's all about the five-year gap.

Most of FFC/DWD wasn't supposed to exist - the fourth book was supposed to pick up five years later, with Bran, Arya, and Sansa having completed their respective internships, and the storylines starting to converge. Since GRRM originally planned to skip over most of what happened in that period, he didn't have a clear plan on the particulars. So once the five-year gap was nixed, he had to start from scratch and fill in a lot of details without any of the planning that went into the first three volumes. He's admitted that he wrote himself into a corner with Dany's storyline (the 'Meereenese Knot'), and much of the delay in FFC/DWD was his attempt to extricate himself from it.

I always forget about the gap, because I never thought it made sense as a narrative device. What, they all get to where they are and then do... nothing... for five years? Just learn and become what they need to be? Yeah, it was a bad idea, and I think GRRM even admitted as much, didn't he?

Dany's entire Meereen storyline should have been aborted, in my view. By that time, GRRM knew he wasn't doing the five year gap, so should have had her make an abrupt turn for Westeros, and put her in the role that Aegon takes in ADWD. You know, actually coming to claim the throne she says is hers. Imagine how much tighter this story would be if we had Dany in Dorne/the Stormlands right now, with Tyrion as her adviser, and everything else stayed the same?

You'd have a confrontation between the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and the Martell-Targaryen force, and then you'd have the Boltons vs Stannis and The Wall. So much neater. Forget the Mummer's Dragon prophecy completely, or just fudge it with some fraud that pops up and is despatched almost instantly.

[OakGoblinFly]

And don't forget those Degrassi-like tingly feelings she gets over her various male suitors.  I really wish they'd just make Dany's storyline a web-series and give us more of the characters whose storyline is actually going somewhere.

I think the actors who play Stannis, Davos and Stannis' daughter are all so good I can understand the producers' desire to keep them on-screen.  But I think this gets up against the problem of there being so much they have to cram into this season that there's really not much room to do anything substantive with Stannis until, presumably, at least the last-half of the season.

Oy, don't get me started on Dany and her numerous suitors ..... it's like a really, really bad romance novel.

 

I also think the issue with many of the characters is that they are "off page" for books (think Theon) and you really don't want to have your actors off page for seasons - so there has to be some way to keep them around to remind the viewer of who they are and what they're doing.

 

I only wish the powers-that-be didn't end season three with Stannis declaring to head to The Wall only to have that plot point completely dropped this season.

[mac123x]

He's got two books to gather Dany, Meereen, Tyrion, the Ironborn, the Dornish, Aegon, Kings Landing, Littlefinger, Sansa, Jon, the Nights Watch, Bran, Stannis, Bolton, Jaime, Brienne, Lady Stoneheart, Arya etc into a coherent and satisfying conclusion. My guess? No chance.

I’ve been trying to think how the hell to get Dany extricated from the Slaver’s Bay plot in less than 3 books:

1. Dany takes control of the kalassar she runs into and heads back to Meereen to break the siege.
2. Victarion captures the bulk of the ships blockading Meereen, and part of the Volanteen fleet for good measure.
3. They use the dragonhorn to get some semblance of control over her dragons.
4. Tirion tells Dany about Aegon, and she (finally) decides she’s had enough of Meereen and sails for Storms End.

Unfortunately, that would require several things to go off as planned, and for several characters to behave rationally.  Even if they all come together and head out from Meereen, there is still too many opportunities for misfortune that GRRM wouldn’t pass up because, drama.

[Alapaki]

I also think the issue with many of the characters is that they are "off page" for books (think Theon) and you really don't want to have your actors off page for seasons - so there has to be some way to keep them around to remind the viewer of who they are and what they're doing.

I only wish the powers-that-be didn't end season three with Stannis declaring to head to The Wall only to have that plot point completely dropped this season.

 

I agree.  Maybe I brushed over stuff when reading the books, but it's my recollection that Stannis' appearance at the Battle of the Wall came out of the blue (in a good way).  It was like I'd forgotten about him as a player, and then he shows up to save the day.

I think, though, that if they'd have teased his interest in the Wall as they did at the end of last season, and then just leave Stannis off-screen until his appearance at the Wall, that would've been effective.

After all, they have so much else to presumably cover this season,

including Tyrion's court-trial, his trial-by-combat, Catelyn's return, possibly Tyrion's escape.

(I'm not sure if references to future events in the books are kosher for these episode threads).

Edited April 27, 2014 by SilverStormm
Just a mod note to say there's no need for spoiler tags in threads prefixed 'Book Talk' unless you're referring to TWOW preview chapters. Feel free to remove the tag or PM me and I'll do so for you. :)

[Carrie Ann]

I thought so too. In the book he did what he did honorably, and while there was an undercurrent of possible skeeve, he never acted on it. So far, anyway.

Huh, I think Littlefinger is just as skeevy in the books as the show; he just puts on the act a bit longer for Sansa. As far as his motivations go, I think his goal is power, and along with power, he's got a bit of an obsession when it comes to Catelyn. Catelyn is no longer an option, so he's set his sights on Sansa. As Tyrion implied here, the person/people who killed Joffrey also set up Tyrion to take the fall. Now, you can view that as just collateral damage, but from Littlefinger's perspective, it leaves Sansa a widow and free to wed again. He could end up Lord of Winterfell, Ward of the North at the very least.

[Alapaki]

As Tyrion implied here, the person/people who killed Joffrey also set up Tyrion to take the fall. Now, you can view that as just collateral damage, but from Littlefinger's perspective, it leaves Sansa a widow and free to wed again. He could end up Lord of Winterfell, Ward of the North at the very least.

 

I'd lean more towards collateral damage.  Because ultimately I don't think Tyrion was really "framed", per se.  Everyone in the relevant circles knew how Tyrion felt about Joffrey.  So Tyrion would naturally be a suspect, however Joffrey ended up dying.  It was Tyrion himself, prodded by Joffrey, who provided must of the "evidence" that'll be used against him.

[Wilowy]

 

Huh, I think Littlefinger is just as skeevy in the books as the show; he just puts on the act a bit longer for Sansa.

Well maybe, but in the books he never tries to molest her (though he did stroke her hair once), and he has a reverence for her and a need to protect her based on his love for Cat. He also tries to guide and teach her the ways of Westeros, so she can better protect herself and be less naive in her dealings with those that can do her harm. 

I'll agree that he does see her as a surrogate for Cat, though not in all ways, and she engenders a whole different set of feelings in him.

[Izzyboy]

Well maybe, but in the books he never tries to molest her (though he did stroke her hair once), and he has a reverence for her and a need to protect her based on his love for Cat.

 

YMMV, but I always felt his feelings towards Sansa were way less noble than that.  I thought his love towards Cat was completely selfish and one directional.  Since he loved her she should then of course reciprocate, who cares if she doesn't feel the same way.  And I think his feelings towards Sansa are the the same with an added, "Whelp, I couldn't get Cat so I'll get the next best thing!"  In all things Littlefinger is about his own interests completely and fully and tramples over any one eles's concerns.

[Danny Franks]

Well maybe, but in the books he never tries to molest her (though he did stroke her hair once), and he has a reverence for her and a need to protect her based on his love for Cat. He also tries to guide and teach her the ways of Westeros, so she can better protect herself and be less naive in her dealings with those that can do her harm. 

I'll agree that he does see her as a surrogate for Cat, though not in all ways, and she engenders a whole different set of feelings in him.

The way he was written in the books suggested to me that his actions will have an escalation to them. He'll try to sleep with her at some point, I'm almost sure of that. To me he has all the hallmarks of an obsessed nutcase, where Sansa is concerned, and will turn nasty with her when she inevitably rejects him. 

[Wilowy]

You're very possibly right. Although I can't really see him throwing away his 'trusted' position with her in favor of raping her, or classifying himself (in her eyes) as just another dickwad who wants to take away her power and means her harm (he has any number of other women, men, and/or farm animals to see to his needs for the time being). Far smarter to keep her at his side, dependent on his word and actions, to the point where he might just get under her skin enough for her to allow a liaison beyond advisor/protector.

Littlefinger is all about projects, and he's been maneuvering to launch The Sansa Project for a while.  

[Haldebrandt]

Haven't seen the episode but read about the rape thing. Yeah, this is exactly what happens when you keep a scene but remove its context. The sex scene made perfect sense in the context of their reunion after a long and traumatic absence.

With the altered timing of Jaime return, the scene no longer made sense. They should have just cut. Instead, they kept it and fucked it up, thus perpetrating aggravated character assassination. Congrats, show runners!

[Carrie Ann]

I mean, I guess it depends on your definition of "molest" but he kisses her full on the mouth with tongue. Repeatedly.

[Wilowy]

Ew. Guess I blocked that one out. :/

[Tryangle]

Littlefinger was raspier than normal in this episode. Is that a side effect of the mist on the Blackwater?

I miss that we don't have a Strong Belwas on this show, but on the flip side, well HBO will show genitals, be headings and gouging all day long... but I don't think there's ever been a live defecation on cable TV. Talk about breaking (wind) new ground.

 

Jamie, yeah... they made him a rapist. The books made it more of a seduction turns quickly to mutual consent, the show was all rape. Very odd maneuver.

[Carrie Ann]

Haven't seen the episode but read about the rape thing. Yeah, this is exactly what happens when you keep a scene but remove its context. The sex scene made perfect sense in the context of their reunion after a long and traumatic absence.

With the altered timing of Jaime return, the scene no longer made sense. They should have just cut. Instead, they kept it and fucked it up, thus perpetrating aggravated character assassination. Congrats, show runners!

I don't know, I think his motivations are icky in both book and show. In the book, he's been missing her for months and wants her so badly he doesn't care that she's grieving or you know, that there's a dead body there. You could argue that he's trying to comfort and be there for Cersei in the way they have probably done since they were very young, but I think he's still thinking more of himself than her in that scene. But at least she consents.

In the show, because of her apparent continued rejection of him for weeks, and the feeling that he is losing her, this feels like a rape motivated by the desire to control and punish her. It's disgusting, and I'm baffled that the director thinks Cersei eventually consented in that scene.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[OakGoblinFly]

Jamie, yeah... they made him a rapist. The books made it more of a seduction turns quickly to mutual consent, the show was all rape. Very odd maneuver.

For me, I never saw that scene as it played out in the books as a seduction as much as it was a declaration of Jamie’s absolute and complete need for Cersei, both in terms of physical and emotional connection.  Jamie is feeling incomplete, less than a man and he needs Cersei to validate his existence. I thought that Cersei’s objections were not so much as to having sex with Jamie because she didn’t want him as much as she didn’t want to have sex in the sept with Joffrey’s corpse right there.

I always thought that Jamie was far more devoted (in his twisted way) to Cersei then Cersei was to Jamie.  I think that Cersei craves the attention and the power she holds over Jamie.  Heck, how long was Jamie gone before Cersei jumped into bed with her cousin (Lancel).

The episode did show Cersei being conflicted - first she was responsive then she wasn't, then she was again, and they she wasn't again ...... I don't know if this is a patter with those two .... I do see how that scene can be viewed both ways.

Edited April 21, 2014 by OakGoblinFly

[Wilowy]

The AV Club asks a fair question:

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

[Alapaki]

The way he was written in the books suggested to me that his actions will have an escalation to them. He'll try to sleep with her at some point, I'm almost sure of that. To me he has all the hallmarks of an obsessed nutcase, where Sansa is concerned, and will turn nasty with her when she inevitably rejects him.

 

I think Littlefinger prefers to always take the path of least resistance.  Right now he has the benefit of time to wait and see if Sansa "comes around" to, if not "wanting him", at least recognizing and accepting the benefits of marrying him.  But, when push comes to shove, I don't doubt that he'll do whatever he has to do to make that happen.  

[Tryangle]

No you're right, OakGoblinFly. I simplified it too much by implying pure seduction and you expanded the whys and where it's coming from aspects far more than I could have imagined.

[Ankai]

Edit: I have no idea how to use these spoiler tags properly. I meant to hide only the images.

 

I don't remember Aidan Gillen's Irish accent being that noticeable in previous seasons, so I found Littlefinger quite distracting in that scene.

It is has been a couple of years since I have read the books, so I don't quite remember much...except that the Sept scene was not quite like that. Anyways, I was curious about how many people Dany brought with her to Mereen.

 

 

The screenshots seem to suggest that there were maybe somewhere between 8 and 10 thousand people with her. That means the Unsullied and maybe a one or two thousand more. Is that around the number that went with her to Mereen in the book?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Ankai

[Joystickenvy]

Littlefinger always seemed like a major creeper to me in the books. What he has lost for me on the show is a lot of the subtlety. He came off as ruthless, dangerous, extremely ambitious, deceptive and at times vindictive in the books, but he never seemed as overtly sinister as he does on the show.

I got the sense that LF could be cruel as a means to an end or the get revenge, but he didn't seem to revel in cruelty for cruelty's sake the way he seems to on the show. I pictured LF as more of a behind the scenes manipulator, rather than the scenery chewer he has been at times on the show.

[MarySNJ]

Here's what I took away from this episode in a nutshell: 

Jaime Lannister would save a woman from being raped, unless she's his own "hateful" sister and he's the one doing the raping. Ugh.

No good deed goes unpunished if your name is Sansa.

Wildlings are human beings who are just a murderous and plundering as any of the Houses south of the Wall.

Tywin is cold and the ultimate pragmatist who will even sacrifice members of his own family if it gets him what he wants.

Margaery is actually upset that Joffers kicked the bucket. I think Granny did have something to do with the poisoning.

I love all things Dornish.

Life in Moles Town doesn't look any better than life at Craster's Keep. Poor Gilly and baby Sam. I understand what Sam was trying to do, but I'm not sure that's much of an improvement.

TV Stannis is awful. He's still pissed that he couldn't roast his own nephew on the flames. How did he manage to end up with such a smart, sweet little girl?  Davos is a big-picture thinker which is probably why Stannis hasn't roasted him for R'hollor yet.

I like the Arya/Hound traveling show but I think Sandor just doomed himself to seven hells for violating guest right.  If the Gods are just...

Jon Snow is proving to have the leadership abilities that Mormont saw in him initially. Very excited to see where his story goes from here.

Grenn! And Edd! Hello there. Welcome back guys!

[Andromeda]

I wish they would switch directors.  This guy has done the past two episodes and they feel very off to me.

ITA. The pacing seemed off, too, even a little boring. Slow and circuitous dialogue, like between Sam and Gilly. At one point I thought the DVR had done a 30-second backward skip because I was sure I'd already heard them say the same words already. Kind of oddly tedious in places.

A lot of counted-out dialogue -- like with Tywin schooling Tommon to be his lapdog, going word by word, to Dany choosing her champion, going man by man. Things just slowed to a crawl in places, even though I found those sections more interesting than pretty much everything at the wall and Arya/Hound for some reason. With Arya/Hound, the scene just felt like a wayside stop, didn't really advance anything.

My hubby who watches with me ended up catnapping through a couple of scenes, after looking forward to it all week.

[ZoeT]

I love all things Dornish.

Thank you! I do too :) So excited to see the rest of the season when it comes to them. For me they provide the flavor and the spice. Kind of like their food really.

[Haldebrandt]

"Your father lacks an appreciation of the finer points of bad behavior" and "You tend not to be overly concerned that that kind of distinction" - Davos -- who couldn't read until recently and can barely write -- must be the most eloquent smuggler this side of the narrow sea.  Sloppy, like the rest of the episode, which seems to have been written with no concern for consistency with the characters.  One of the weakest episodes to date.

[Independent George]

"Your father lacks an appreciation of the finer points of bad behavior" and "You tend not to be overly concerned that that kind of distinction" - Davos -- who couldn't read until recently and can barely write -- must be the most eloquent smuggler this side of the narrow sea.  Sloppy, like the rest of the episode, which seems to have been written with no concern for consistency with the characters.  One of the weakest episodes to date.

You're conflating literacy with intelligence. Being illiterate doesn't prevent a man from being able to speak well or communicate complex thoughts. Davos was a successful smuggler on two continents for decades before being elevated by Stannis. He's intelligent enough to evade capture, navigate treacherous waters, and maintain good relations with his various clients to stay ahead of pursuing authorities. Why would you expect him to communicate via grunts and gestures just because he can't read and write? 

[Haldebrandt]

You're conflating literacy with intelligence. Being illiterate doesn't prevent a man from being able to speak well or communicate complex thoughts. Davos was a successful smuggler on two continents for decades before being elevated by Stannis. He's intelligent enough to evade capture, navigate treacherous waters, and maintain good relations with his various clients to stay ahead of pursuing authorities. Why would you expect him to communicate via grunts and gestures just because he can't read and write? 

I didn't realize the alternative to uncharacteristic eloquence was grunts and gestures.  Davos is a low-born from flea bottom whose illiteracy is a direct reflection of the socio-economic status he has had for most of his life.  That bit of dialog was largely out of character for someone like that.  It has nothing to do with intelligence or complexity of thought, and everything to do with vocabulary and linguistic sophistication.

Language has been a marker of status for ages, in real life and on the show.  There was an amusing exchange between Tyrion and Bronn on this very matter right before the battle of the Blackwater ("big words for a sell-sword! -- I've bene hanging with fancy people").  No part of what I am saying is controversial.

[matilda76]

Just a general comment that, apart from the Tywin/Cersei/Tommen scene and the Cersei/Jaime scene, I actually enjoyed this episode quite a bit -- there was a good balance of lighthearted and somber moments. The Hound/Arya scenes were excellent as usual and made me laugh, as did the scenes with Davos and Shireen. The wilding/Thenn raid was deeply disturbing, and, once Dany FINALLY picked her champion, I enjoyed Daario's quick victory and the exploding barrels of slave collars. I also thought Sam was very touching in his scenes with Gilly, even if things did drag on a bit.

IMO, not the best episode of GoT, but definitely not one of the weakest as someone said above. 

[GreyBunny]

I didn't realize the alternative to uncharacteristic eloquence was grunts and gestures.  Davos is a low-born from flea bottom whose illiteracy is a direct reflection of the socio-economic status he has had for most of his life.  That bit of dialog was largely out of character for someone like that.  It has nothing to do with intelligence or complexity of thought, and everything to do with vocabulary and linguistic sophistication.

Language has been a marker of status for ages, in real life and on the show.  There was an amusing exchange between Tyrion and Bronn on this very matter right before the battle of the Blackwater ("big words for a sell-sword! -- I've bene hanging with fancy people").  No part of what I am saying is controversial.

Just because Davos and Bronn are both lowborn it doesn't mean that they value the same things with the same weight.  Davos values words, Bronn his sword.

Being born and raised in Flea Bottom doesn't mean that Davos doesn't want to better himself in some way or lacks the ambition to learn to speak eloquently.  When he was given the chance to learn to read he jumped on it.  He's well traveled and has had ample opportunity to listen to others at various social strata and has decided to use a more sophisticated style as a model for his own speech.  He probably views that as part and parcel of wanting to improve the fortunes of his family as a landed knight, and a skill necessary for his current job as the trusted advisor and hand of a king.  The king's hand can't be effective if he's confused by words that are for "fancy people" and "big for a sellsword," especially if he's sent to speak with the king's voice while treating with other nobles.  

Missandei can read and eloquently speak a number of languages and has a clever mind.  Should she stop sounding like "fancy people" because she was a lowborn slave?

And there are plenty of highborn knights and nobles who sound like raging idiots. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Andromeda]

With the altered timing of Jaime return, the scene no longer made sense. They should have just cut. Instead, they kept it and fucked it up, thus perpetrating aggravated character assassination. Congrats, show runners!

Yup, I thought for sure they'd cut it. I doesn't add any value at all. Cersei gave him the cold shoulder already. If they were going to have any sex in terms of a reunion, it should have happened when Jamie returned. Here's a Wired article on it: http://www.wired.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-rape/

The screenshots seem to suggest that there were maybe somewhere between 8 and 10 thousand people with her. That means the Unsullied and maybe a one or two thousand more. Is that around the number that went with her to Mereen in the book?

Woah, lots a peeps! I remember in the book there being 8,000 Unsullied, plus as many as 30,000 (!!) freed slaves who wanted to follow her., and ate through the countryside like locusts. Not enough was ever discussed about how Dany fed all those mouths, IMO. Especially the soldiers, who never camp and seem never to need to rest, sleep, eat, get out of their armor.... Even in the first episode, they were always at alert, even when Dario and Jorah were playing sword gambling.

[GreyBunny]

Re:  that Wired article. 

Wow.  Alex Graves, the director, didn't think a woman being pinned down and screaming "No!" was a rape scene.  That assclown needs to never direct anything ever again.

[Fen]

I thought Sansa's escape was tense.  Cutting to Cersei's rage-filled face screaming for her was a nice touch.  Run, Sansa, run!

Loved Davos and Shireen.  Their scene was lovely.  They're the only bright spot in Dragonstone, which seems stagnant and dismal most of the time.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long with Gilly and Sam this episode.  Don't mind them for a couple of minutes - but their scenes felt protracted.

The Thenns continue to be terrifying. 

Littlefinger begins as he means to go on, invading personal space like nobody's business. 

This episode seemed intent on doing away with the potential cutesiness of the Hound and Arya road trip.  The piety of the farmer he took advantage of seems like it will be foreshadowing for later in his story.

The rape scene seemed like flat-out rape to me.  The director said, 'well, it becomes consensual in the end' - what, when Jaime has actually pinned her down on the floor?  Consensual because she can't struggle?  If that was supposed to look remotely consensual, then it's been spectacularly poorly done. 

With the altered timing of Jaime return, the scene no longer made sense. They should have just cut. Instead, they kept it and fucked it up, thus perpetrating aggravated character assassination. Congrats, show runners!

Totally agree.  In GRRM's Livejournal entry discussing the scene, he says that he has repeatedly mentioned the problem of the 'butterfly effect', where changing one small details can have large ramifications for the larger storyline.  And my, isn't this a prime example.

[Haldebrandt]

The most disturbing aspect of the episode is the length and contortions through which so many viewers are going in order to deny the glaringly obvious.

Here is an example, from another site:

 

 

It's EVERYWHERE. Every damn site and outlet has walls of texts followed by thousands of comments on this topic. I must admit I'm totally freaked by the amount of outrage. I even began to reassess my own stance: maybe I'm full of shit, maybe the scene really depicts a callous act of rape that severely damages Jaime's and Cersei's character arc, maybe as a male I didn't really think this one through...

I watched the scene again and again, thought on the subject... and no, I still don't think that what Jaime did really amounts to rape, at least not to the characters involved. If someone asks Cersei down the line if Jaime had raped her: does anyone think she'd say (and think) yes?

It's like they are staring at an enormous elephant and wondering: "Hmm...  Is this a lion?  It is a mouse?  I can kinda see how some would think it's an elephant, but it sure doesn't look like it to me. Maybe it's a whale?"

If what Jaime did to Cersei is not a rape, then the word has no meaning.

So here is my question: In what ways would the scene have to be altered for it to be a rape?  I am genuinely curious about this.  What does it take?

Edited April 22, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Wilowy]

Agreed that it was in fact rape. But people need to stop obsessing about it. Considering the times and their personal history, I doubt either Jaime or Cersei would call it that. Men were brutes, rape was celebrated all over the place. Cersei's description of her wedding night with Robert was practically drunken rape on his part (what he could do).

They changed the scene from the book, and it can't be undone. So here we have it. 

What bothers me most is how this will change things going forward. 

This episode was about bringing us around to the brutality of their world again. Jaime raping Cersei, The Hound's actions against the peaceful man, the killing of Dontos, death threats for Pod, Gilly's relocation from the Wall's rapers... it all served to remind us that however complacent we'd gotten with these characters, was too much. Everyone's an asshole, lest we forget. 

[Mr Fixit]

The most disturbing aspect of the episode is the length and contortions through which so many viewers are going in order to deny the glaringly obvious.

Here is an example, from another site:

 

 

It's like they are staring at an enormous elephant and wondering: "Hmm...  Is this a lion?  It is a mouse?  I can kinda see how some would think it's an elephant, but it sure doesn't look like it to me. Maybe it's a whale?"

If what Jaime did to Cersei is not a rape, then the word has no meaning.

So here is my question: In what ways would the scene have to be altered for it to be a rape?  I am genuinely curious about this.  What does it take?

While I truly appreciate that you singled out my post from Westeros.org to showcase my inability to differentiate elephants from whales, why didn't you also quote my previous post on that same thread? Let me do that for you:

 

I may be in the minority (and clearly I am), but that scene didn't seem as an all-out rape to me. Skirting the line, yes, but I always imagined their relationship, particularly on the Cersei side, as a powerplay that routinely gets uncomfortable to watch. I can easily imagine Cersei as someone who deep down wants Jaime to treat her that way (and please don't accuse me of "it's the victim's fault" or of "victim wants to be raped") as some kind of twisted validation that despite her rebuffs and protestations he still wants her with every fiber of his being.

As for point of view, I don't think either of them thought of it as rape. In a crazy way, they both think of each other as physical extensions of one being. Jaime can no more rape Cersei than she can rape herself. At least that's how those two probably view the situation.

 

At no point was I saying that what Jaime did to Cersei was morally right. And yeah, for a modern observer that scene would likely amount to rape. However, I posited that to Jaime and Cersei such abusive behaviour was quite possibly part and parcel of their twisted bond. It's an obsessive, unhealthy, all-consuming relationship that they have, something Jaime himself notes in the books. To say he simply raped her and that's that is a grossly reductivist approach that misses the subtler points of their mutually abusive relationship.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Mr Fixit

[Carrie Ann]

Agreed that it was in fact rape. But people need to stop obsessing about it. Considering the times and their personal history, I doubt either Jaime or Cersei would call it that. Men were brutes, rape was celebrated all over the place. Cersei's description of her wedding night with Robert was practically drunken rape on his part (what he could do).

Why should people "stop obsessing about it?" Just because rape is common in this world doesn't mean it's OK, even by the standards of most of the people who live there. They send rapists to the Wall. Spousal rape is very common, and while not punished, it is recognized by its victims as abusive. As we've been discussing, Book Jaime is anti-rape and ultimately protects Brienne from being victimized in that way. Tyrion steadfastly refuses to have sex with Sansa until she affirmatively wants to have sex with him. Not just accepts it, but wants it.

Beyond that, people are probably allowed to approach the show any way they want to. Some people won't apply any of the values of our time to the show/series, and that's fine. Other people will apply all of our values to the show and will judge characters accordingly. If rape is a dealbreaker for you, especially if you were a fan of Book Jaime, then this is a huge problem and disappointment.

[Wilowy]

I'm not arguing about it, Carrie Ann, nor did I imply in any stretch of the imagination that it is 'OK' just because it happens. I'm simply expressing my opinion, which is also allowed. 

In my mind the problem has been identified, but it isn't going to change anything, so I am preferring to focus on how it will affect the story moving forward. If they are able to change the source material for the show so drastically, I can't help but wonder what's in store. 

I'd really hate it if the Westeros I became enamored with in the books became unrecognizable in the show. 

[Carrie Ann]

I agree with that, too. I just bristled at the first line of your previous post because this issue has inspired a lot of what I consider "policing" how people watch or think about the show, and that irritates me, in both directions. If someone wants to watch the show without applying any set of morals to it, I think that is a very valid way to do it (and probably the way that would make a person happiest, frankly). But then I don't want that person saying to me or others, "Well, you can't apply your morals to the show." Because it's just a different way of approaching it. And it's definitely trickiest to talk about rape from these two perspectives, because it's a really triggery issue, and people downplaying its importance on the show feels a lot like people downplaying its importance in real life.

I didn't mean to say that you think rape is OK! I was referring to the argument that rape isn't bad on the show/in the books, and I disagree. I think it's portrayed as bad (though commonplace), and the characters who perpetrate it are generally considered bad, while those characters who are considered good or becoming good generally disdain it. Tyrion, Jon, Ned, Robb, Jaime. So now we remove Jaime from that group, on the show, and it's a hard pill to swallow, as a fan of his growth.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Wilowy]

Understood. 

I confess I'm confused as to why some folks would want to apply their personal modern day, twenty-first century morality to a show that obviously is completely set before such mores were in practice, but that is their affair and none of mine. 

By saying "people need to stop obsessing..." I was talking about refocusing on how this will affect the show, not someone's internal struggle with the rape, which is a personal situation for each individual.

[OakGoblinFly]

Yup, I thought for sure they'd cut it. I doesn't add any value at all. Cersei gave him the cold shoulder already. If they were going to have any sex in terms of a reunion, it should have happened when Jamie returned. Here's a Wired article on it: http://www.wired.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-rape/

 

I disagree.  I think that scene did have value - it showed us Jamie's desperate need to re-establish his connection with his sister, to feel a complete person, to have Cersei validate his value as well as pointing out that Cersei does not need/want Jamie.

[Independent George]

I didn't realize the alternative to uncharacteristic eloquence was grunts and gestures.  Davos is a low-born from flea bottom whose illiteracy is a direct reflection of the socio-economic status he has had for most of his life.  That bit of dialog was largely out of character for someone like that.  It has nothing to do with intelligence or complexity of thought, and everything to do with vocabulary and linguistic sophistication.

Language has been a marker of status for ages, in real life and on the show.  There was an amusing exchange between Tyrion and Bronn on this very matter right before the battle of the Blackwater ("big words for a sell-sword! -- I've bene hanging with fancy people").  No part of what I am saying is controversial.

He's also been elevated to a knight and Stannis' best friend for 17 years. And even before he was elevated, he was a successful smuggler whose primary contacts were wealthy Lords and merchants trying to avoid taxes. That's actually a small part of his point - a smuggler's life is quite different from a pirate even if they are both criminals and they work hand-in-hand from time to time. He's been hanging around fancy folk for decades. Why is it so surprising that he can speak well? Part of a smuggler's skill set is the ability to pass as a legit merchant. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by Independent George

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, I think the operative issue is that he's Stannis' best friend and Hand. Of course Davos sounds the way he does.

[annlaw78]

I confess I'm confused as to why some folks would want to apply their personal modern day, twenty-first century morality to a show that obviously is completely set before such mores were in practice, but that is their affair and none of mine.

I think we have to view the show from our own realities, and the compare-and-contrast that goes on adds depth and texture to the show.  I can understand that arranged marriages and even forced marriages are the norm in Westeros, but still think it's awful.  I can understand life is more brutal in Westeros, and still lament that. 

But we do know that Westeros is not totally morality-free.  It seems incest is a taboo.  It seems like they have a basic (if low) threshold for age of sexual maturity.  And I think that what Jaime did violates the modicum of morals that exist in Westeros society.  I think looking at the scene either through a modern lens, or say, a Cersei lens, leads to the same result: she was forced into an unwanted sexual encounter.

I would say that throughout most of (recorded) human history, the concept of a man forcing himself upon a woman has been a "bad" thing.  It's not a uniquely Judeo-Christian or "western" notion.  The ancient Greeks and Romans had numerous rape myths, stories of mortal women being raped by gods, women raped by conquering nations, etc.  This is not a purely modern legal construct. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by annlaw78

[Joystickenvy]

The most disturbing aspect of the episode is the length and contortions through which so many viewers are going in order to deny the glaringly obvious.

I've read a lot of opinions that reflect what I consider a rather disturbing view of what constitutes rape or when rape is "ok."

However, in terms of the show, I think the major concern is how or if this change in the scene will change the characters and their relationship. So far, we have seen Jaime wanting to pick up where they left off and Cersei rejecting him. He resents this and in the sept he seems to decide he's going to take what he wants from her and Cersei & everyone else be damned.

This isn't entirely a departure from the books, but it is an escalation and one that precipitated by less of Cersei's transgressions than the book.

In the book, Jaime grows to resent her, but Cersei gives him more reasons than just rejecting him a couple times. She belittles him. He begins to suspect her numerous other lovers (I forget if or when he finds out the truth about lancel) etc.

Cersei seems to increasingly resent men in general in the book and takes out some of her anger at her father and her perception that she is pushed aside in favor of a drunken husband and then two child kings, simply because she is female. She also resents that Jaime is repeatedly offered an inheritance she feels is rightfully hers, but denied due to her gender.

In other words, I don't see the characters growing apart as a great departure from the books, but this rape should play into it, since having to allow Robert to have his way was one of the things she also resented about her role as a woman in westeroes and I don't see her putting up with it from a man she is already growing weary of.

[GreyBunny]

 

 

 

Willowy:  I confess I'm confused as to why some folks would want to apply their personal modern day, twenty-first century morality to a show that obviously is completely set before such mores were in practice, but that is their affair and none of mine.

 

Rape was more openly widespread in their world but that doesn't mean it was universally considered to be acceptable.  Rape, their definition of it, is a crime.  I'd think that forcing your own sister to have sex would constitute rape in their world.  Rapists sometimes do get punished, including being sent to the Wall (hence Sam's fear for Gilly and her baby staying at Castle Black).

 

Jaime was established in the books as anti-rape, and his saving Brienne from rape was also part of his TV show version.  To have someone who was anti-rape to suddenly turn around and violently abuse his sister like this is, to me, is disturbing, especially so since the modern day, twenty-first century director is trying to say that it wasn't an assault and Cersei somehow consented (really?  So "consent" in his mind is screaming "No!" and being pinned down so hard she can't move?  It's "consent" if she can't fight back?!)  It appears that the mores in Westeros are not so different than some in this world.

Edited April 24, 2014 by GreyBunny

[ZoeT]

But we do know that Westeros is not totally morality-free.  It seems incest is a taboo.  It seems like they have a basic (if low) threshold for age of sexual maturity.  And I think that what Jaime did violates the modicum of morals that exist in Westeros society.  I think looking at the scene either through a modern lens, or say, a Cersei lens, leads to the same result: she was forced into an unwanted sexual encounter.

I would say that throughout most of (recorded) human history, the concept of a man forcing himself upon a woman has been a "bad" thing.  It's not a uniquely Judeo-Christian or "western" notion.  The ancient Greeks and Romans had numerous rape myths, stories of mortal women being raped by gods, women raped by conquering nations, etc.  This is not a purely modern legal construct. 

An amazing coincidence! I thought the whole Westeros society rules vs modern society ones exactly like you today. I was trying to explain to a friend that it is not necessarily that one cannot divorce herself/ himself from today's rules and standards which ARE different, it is the fact that the concept of right/good and wrong/bad is known even if bad or evil is accepted throughout history, and that forced sexual encounter (which we label today rape) is very much about power over the other and violating their body, getting something the rapists wants against the other ones' wishes or desires. That was never a "modern legal construct" (to use exactly your words).

We were talking about beating women. Robert hits Cersei, Aegon beats his wife. Common occurrence. Marital abuse, marital forced sexed (I won't say rape so it won't sound too modern though that is what I mean LOL): these are known to be wrong even in Westeros. I'm just giving the background on the discussion.

And this is the end of my off topic.

Edited April 23, 2014 by TormundsWoman

[OakGoblinFly]

GreyBunny - that's not my quote. The quote you copied came from Willowy.

[matilda76]

Agreed that it was in fact rape. But people need to stop obsessing about it. Considering the times and their personal history, I doubt either Jaime or Cersei would call it that. Men were brutes, rape was celebrated all over the place. Cersei's description of her wedding night with Robert was practically drunken rape on his part (what he could do).

They changed the scene from the book, and it can't be undone. So here we have it. 

What bothers me most is how this will change things going forward. 

This episode was about bringing us around to the brutality of their world again. Jaime raping Cersei, The Hound's actions against the peaceful man, the killing of Dontos, death threats for Pod, Gilly's relocation from the Wall's rapers... it all served to remind us that however complacent we'd gotten with these characters, was too much. Everyone's an asshole, lest we forget. 

Everyone's an asshole....except for Pod! He's a dear. Anyway, the rape scene didn't really bother me when viewed in context with the rest of the series and where it's going alongside the books. Jaime is a morally ambiguous character, simple as that. But portraying a morally ambiguous character is not simple. Throughout most of the first two seasons, he is portrayed as mostly villainous, but the actor is skilled enough to have imbued it with a sense of something else below the surface. It was a good set-up to losing his hand and forming a relationship with Brienne in Season 3 and starting him on another phase of his life where he starts to question everything he's ever known. But that doesn't mean he's now solidly on a righteous path. It's not that straightforward. Whereas before he was dead certain about Cersei, upon returning he's thrown into conflict and confusion about his relationship with her, which has always been tinged with violence and deceit (mostly deceiving others, but now she has deceived him). In the show, I've always seen their relationship as love/hate, even more so than the books. I don't think it's character assassination at all, not when viewed in context. In fact, it's all of a piece with setting up what looks to be a permanent alienation from Cersei (as of ADWD). Yes, I agree it was a particularly unpleasant scene. But so was the scene in the book. 

And Davos. Like a lot of people here, I love that Onion Knight. Yes, he's from Flea Bottom, but he's long proved to have a subtle mind...now it's just got an improved outlet because of his burgeoning literacy. I loved his talk of distinctions and finer points of bad behavior...more Davos, please.

[OakGoblinFly]

Everyone's an asshole....except for Pod! He's a dear. 

And Rickon!  I am convinced that Rickon and Shaggy Dog are going to rule Westeros when all is said and done.   ;-) 

[scout1207]

 

Everyone's an asshole....except for Pod! He's a dear.

And Rickon!  I am convinced that Rickon and Shaggy Dog are going to rule Westeros when all is said and done.   ;-)

 Actually my money's on Shireen. She can smell the bullshit burning a mile away.