S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains

[mad_typist]

Unofficial speculative description from me (spoiler tagged until the episode airs in case someone unspoiled accidentally wanders in here):

Shit hits the fan for Tyrion. Tywin extends an olive branch, and by "olive branch" I mean "it's totally a trap, so don't buy what he's selling". Dany kicks ass and takes names.

 

Episode Synopsis:

Tyrion ponders his options. Tywin extends an olive branch. Sam realizes Castle Black isn’t safe, and Jon proposes a bold plan. The Hound teaches Arya the way things are. Dany chooses her champion.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[mac123x]

So... Jaime and Cercei in the Sept with Joffrey's body had a bit of a rapey feel to it.  It was gross in the book, but they somehow made it worse.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

A bit of a rapey feel?  She flat out said no stop and he kept going.  Really not happy about that change.

[Mya Stone]

Jaime is the only Lannister being completely portrayed in a worse light in the show. 

Interesting how Tyrion immediately exonerated Sansa with no animosity. Quite the departure there, as well. 

[Paws]

Other than the rapey part (SO unnecessary...why make that change from the book?) that was a fucking awesome episode. I have said it before and i will say it again but the actor playing Oberyn is splendid. 

[Independent George]

So... Jaime and Cercei in the Sept with Joffrey's body had a bit of a rapey feel to it.  It was gross in the book, but they somehow made it worse.

There was nothing "rapey" about it. It was flat-out rape. WTF were they thinking? Or do D&D honestly not think that was rape? 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Independent George

[MarquisDeCarabas]

So Alan Sepinwall had a breif interview with Alan Graves mostly about The last episode but this is what he had to say on the sept scene

 

 

"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. And it was very much about the earlier part with Charles (Dance) and the gentle verbal kidnapping of Cersei's last living son. Nikolaj came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That's one of my favorite scenes I've ever done."
 

Which to me says someone needs to talk to Mr Graves because that is NOT the final impression of the scene.  I never got the impression she consents at any point in the scene .  it's going to be interesting to see if there is any backlash.

[Independent George]

So Alan Sepinwall had a breif interview with Alan Graves mostly about The last episode but this is what he had to say on the sept scene

 

Which to me says someone needs to talk to Mr Graves because that is NOT the final impression of the scene.  I never got the impression she consents at any point in the scene .  it's going to be interesting to see if there is any backlash.

If Mr Graves honestly believes that was consensual at the end, somebody needs to start investigating him to find out if anyone's ever filed charges against him in the past. She was saying "stop, it's not right" up until the moment they cut away. 

It's like the "The Nightman Cometh" episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, where Charlie keeps insisting that it's not a rape scene between the Nightman and the Boy.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Independent George

[halgia]

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons . . .”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this . . .”

The show version was worse, but original version was still pretty bad.

[Mya Stone]

The show version was worse, but original version was still pretty bad.

No doubt the original version was awful, but it most definitely wasn't even questionable consent-wise. 

[halgia]

No doubt the original version was awful, but it most definitely wasn't even questionable consent-wise. 

I just reread it again and I guess she does consent before actual penetration, but I wouldn't call the original version unquestionable consent-wise. He's forcefully taking her clothes off as she says not to.

[Mya Stone]

I just reread it again and I guess she does consent before actual penetration, but I wouldn't call the original version unquestionable consent-wise. He's forcefully taking her clothes off as she says not to.

True. I may just be a Jaime-apologist. 

But filming it like this and having her protest the entire time is not really helping Ser Handless make his way down Redemption Road. 

[Wilowy]

One thing that's been constantly troublesome to me as I've read and re-read the books, is how my modern sensibilities conflict with the standards of the Medieval world George writes about. What's horrifying to us now, was commonplace and even encouraged in the early days of civilization.

[Independent George]

This is also totally doesn't involve rape and isn't the least bit creepy at all:

Edited April 21, 2014 by Independent George

[halgia]

On a different note: I liked the Meereen challenge scene. It's too bad we don't have Strong Belwas, but Belwas put on a show and even then had to actually fight Oznak a little bit, where Daario just did a matter-of-fact slaughter: no toying around, just setting up Dany to say that they can and will free the people. (We lost Strong Belwas shitting in their general direction, though.)

[Independent George]

Ok, in other news...

There were some great scenes tonight. Tywin/Tommen was brilliant, as was Tyrion/Pod, Davos/Shireen, Olenna/Margaery, Arya/Hound, Sam/Gilly. Jon is way more entertaining now that he's not moping about. 

It would have been more believable if everyone had forgotten about Sansa in the confusion instead of having them immediately look for her, while she's still at the crime scene. It's more dramatic this way, but kind of ridiculous. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Independent George

[jeansheridan]

I wish they would switch directors.  This guy has done the past two episodes and they feel very off to me.  Jaime most definitely raped her which is completely wrong for both characters.  In the book he is greeting her for the first time and just demands sex and she does cave in.  But psychologically he was much needier in the book--he had been away from her for so long.  And I think she wanted him too even though sex next to her dead son wasn't exactly appealing.  But that's the nature of their relationship.  They're way beyond normal boundaries.  But rape isn't part of their dynamic at all.  That's actually how I can tolerate them--it's a mutual choice by both of them and while he loves/needs her more, she's never let him push her around.  

That said, I love Poderick and Tyrion's last scene together, loved Daavos and the princess (she's sassy!), and even Dany at the wall.  Dany isn't my favorite character (her plotline bores me to tears), but she sold that scene.  And I loved her hurling the shackles over the walls.  Nice touch.  And the new Daario is delightful.  

[dbell1]

This season Pod has learned to talk. I liked book Pod always speaking to people's shoes. Guess Show!Pod getting laid at Littlefinger's House of Exposition did wonders for him?

Tywin offered the Mountain to Obereyn in exchange for a guilty vote?  Or did he want a not guilty vote?  Love Charles Dance. I'd go to a Westeros wedding just to see him up close.

Not a fan of the aging up of Tommen. Our new king is

going to be devestated when grandpop Lannister gets an Elvis death

. He was 8? I think in the books?  More a fan of playing with kittens than learning anything.

Tonight was the first time I liked Dany.  And the scene with the chains coming from the blocks was just awesome!

Arya and the Hound - I'd watch those two all day. Poor Sally. We see Arya degrading even further though, in the past she might have given the farmer and Sally some help or silver, now she just leaves.

Tyrion is doomed.  Not even Alicia Florrick could save him.

[Independent George]

I almost forgot: who else started giggling uncontrollably when Shireen said "Ka-nig-it"? 

[yellowfred]

I actually didn't find the Jaime/Cercei scene to be that much of a departure, just because I always thought her consent in the books was dubious at best.  She tries to fight him off and says she doesn't want to do it, but he both overpowers and ignores her.  I think it's kind of downplayed because it's from Jaime's perspective, and of course he wouldn't think that she was sincere in her protests, but I don't have a problem with the way the scene played out.  That being said, if the director and/or writer actually thinks that was portrayed as being consensual by the end, that's more than a little bit worrisome.

I really liked the stuff with Arya and the Hound.  I think it was a nice counterpoint to their stuff in 4x01, where Arya seems to be thinking of the Hound as more of an ally, and now she's remembering why he's really not.  He might not be as bad as a lot of people, but that doesn't necessarily make him good, either.  Also, it was nice to have a reminder that there are common people still loyal to the Tullys and the Starks, since we probably won't be seeing any of their more formidable allies for another season or two.

[GreyBunny]

I miss Belwas too but Daario didn't mess around, he got the job done.  Good boy. 

Tyrion is hosed, sweetheart Pod broke my heart, and I'm glad they finally established Oberyn as a master poisoner.  I couldn't help but crack up at the thought of Tywin giving Tommen a lesson in the birds and the bees.  Imagine being in school for sex ed and the teacher walks in and it's Tywin.  I'd laugh and laugh.  I was on the edge of my seat when Tywin was presenting his deal to Oberyn.

Petyr is in full perv mode.

...aaaand the character assassination of Jaime and Stannis continues. 

Cersei's consent was dubious in the books but I thought the show made it worse.  In the books Jaime has consistently been anti-rape:  he wants to stop Aerys when he violently rapes Rhaella, he rescues Brienne and Pia, and later grills the boyfriend of the latter to make sure he won't hurt her or do anything she doesn't want to do. 

Yet another reason why Iove Davos:

 

 

Shireen: You were a pirate once.
Davos: No, I was never a pirate, I was a smuggler.
Shireen: What's the difference?
Davos: If you're a famous smuggler you're not doing it right.
Shireen: My father says a criminal's a criminal.
Davos: Your father lacks an appreciation of the finer points of bad behavior.

Edited April 23, 2014 by GreyBunny

[quarks]

For about thirty seconds Tywin almost had me.  There he was, in his little speech to Tommen, giving a history lesson, and I'm like, FINALLY, someone on this show is trying to make sure that the next king isn't a reckless idiot...

...and then it all wrapped up with "that's why you should listen to me even well after you've come of age because THAT'S wise. We'll just ignore my whole helping to plunge the country into a civil war sorta thing."

And then once again, when he was talking to Oberyn, and almost convincing me that he actually had the concerns of Westeros in mind there for a moment. Almost. 

I'm confused about the Stannis timeline/motivation in the show.  Am I correct in understanding that he decided to go north at the end of last season, and even though he knows the needs at the Wall are urgent, he isn't actually leaving yet because he needs an army, and for some reason thinks that burning people up is going to help him recruit people to the cause?  And so Davos is going to take a loan from the dreaded Iron Bank so they can go attack wildlings and snow zombies?

[sylvam]

I felt like the scene in the books was Cersei realizing she couldn't stop Jaime, so she pretends to want him too to regain some control (and to hurry him up to avoid getting caught).  I imagine that it's kind of a vicious cycle that's been going on for a while, because Jaime feels like she doesn't really mean it all the time when she says no, if she sometimes gives in like she wants him.  It's unclear to me how much she desires him sexually in general; just because she doesn't want him under those circumstances doesn't mean she doesn't want him at all, but I tend to lead towards Cersei not feeling much lust for Jaime (or anyone).

[Independent George]

Cersei's consent was dubious in the books but I thought the show made it worse.  In the books Jaime has consistently been anti-rape:  he wants to stop Aerys when he violently rapes Rhaella, he rescues Brienne and Pia, and later grills the boyfriend of the latter to make sure he won't hurt her or do anything she doesn't want to do. 

I'd forgotten about this, and you're absolutely right - this makes the show far, far worse.

[mac123x]

I much prefer Show!Pod to Book!Pod, and I like how they set him up with a plausible motive to go with Brienne.

New Daario is so bland I think I'm going to call him Taapioca Naharis.  I didn't care for the actor they had last year, but this one just looks like "standard issue GoT warrior guy with dark hair and beard".  He's supposed to be charming Dany, but a) she's not a teenager and b) he's pretty charm-free.

'm confused about the Stannis timeline/motivation in the show.  Am I correct in understanding that he decided to go north at the end of last season, and even though he knows the needs at the Wall are urgent, he isn't actually leaving yet because he needs an army, and for some reason thinks that burning people up is going to help him recruit people to the cause?

I'm not following the entire Stannis-and-the-wall story line.  He seems to have been sitting on his ass at Dragonstone for no really apparent reason.  He still has some army, and apparently even a couple of thousand would greatly boost the Nightswatch.

They're dragging out the battle of the Wall until later in the season, I guess.  Explains the addition of the traitors at Crasters and the continuing adventures of Ygritte and the Thenns.

[GreyBunny]

The timeline is weird for me too.  The best I can figure out is that the show might have him make a deal with the Iron Bank and hire sellswords before going to the Wall.  

[jellysalmon]

I posted this in the preview topic but was it just me but did it seem like

Margaery didn't know about the plan to kill Joffrey?

I got a phone call and was distracted by that scene.

[Joystickenvy]

I almost forgot: who else started giggling uncontrollably when Shireen said "Ka-nig-it"?

Me. That was one of my favorite bits of the episode. Really loving the relationship between Shireen & the onion knight. Which is good, because the rest of the dragon stone stuff is kinda meh.

The sept scene in the book is on the rapey side, and the show scene is very blatantly rape, so if the director thinks she was "consenting at the end" he either massively failed with the scene or he has some very questionable ideas about "consent." Not to mention the whole idea of she says no, but she really wants it so force the issue til she says yes isn't the most enlightened either. Whether it fits with Jaime's character.....he's not a nice guy and his resentment towards Cersei has been building ever since he returned. His forcing the issue of having sex in the room with their dead son in the book was a very ugly scene, even with the implied 'consent' at the end. So, I don't really have an issue with them making it less ambiguously rapey, but I do have an issue if we were expected to read that as consent.

Not sure I like where they are going with the wildlings. They did some bad stuff in the book, but they weren't quite the bogeymen the show is making them.

Loved Twyin & Oberyn and the hound & Arya. They are so much fun, that even though they are varying degrees of assholes, I'm really gonna be sad when they get broken up.

Tywin was a real cold fish in his manipulation of Tommen and total disregard of Cersei's grief. Definitely easy to believe he could be in on the plot to kill Joffrey. Tommen seemed......a bit slow. I don't know if they are substituting him being mentally challenged for being 8 or if he's just supposed to be easily manipulated. I hope he still likes kittens, though now I'm worried he might pet them too hard.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Joystickenvy

[yellowfred]

Yeah, jellysalmon, that was definitely the impression I got, regarding Margaery.  I thought it was a little funny, in that scene, that she said almost the same thing that Sansa does, in the books, about how awful it was watching him die like that.  It definitely made it seem like she was prepared to go for the long haul with Joffrey, in spite of everything.  Plus, she was candid enough about what she thought of him that I don't think it was entirely an act.

Edited April 21, 2014 by yellowfred

[RapBert]

Damn, Littlefinger is one creepy son of a bitch. He was creepy in the books as well, but seeing it onscreen was even worse. Also, what the hell is his accent supposed to be?

Tywin was amazing in both his scenes, especially with Oberyn. Charles Dance has an awesome screen presence.

Great to see Edd and Grenn back, and I really like Jon Snow 2.0.

Davos and Shireen continue to be two of my favourites. I don't really like Stannis sitting on his ass though, and I don't like how they stretch out this storyline.

Didn't care for Sam & Gilly or Dany or Tormund & Ygritte's Excellent Adventure in this episode.

[GreyBunny]

Yeah, Sam and Gilly were dull this week and I really hope the show isn't just going to permanently dump Gilly and the baby in Mole's Town instead of taking the trip to the Citadel.

Edited April 21, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Ireth]

Usually I like the changes they make to the book because it makes watching the show more enjoyable, but I hated Jaime's rape of Cersei especially compared to how Jaime's attitude towards rape was portrayed in the books.

I also didn't really like the fact that Margaery was cluless about who murdered Joffrey, because I liked the way it was in the books, where it was implied she was in on everything Olenna planned, and knew very well how she could manipulate Tommen better than Joffrey...I like the idea of them working as a team instead of Olenna being a step ahead of Margaery and instructing her what to do. 

I loved Podrick and Oberyn in this episode.

[RapBert]

Ugh, totally forgot to mention "that" scene. Bloody hell, it was fucked up in the book, but this... what were they thinking?

[Danny Franks]

How on earth did Aidan Gillen get the job as Littlefinger? He's terrible. I feel like I'm watching some community theatre performer's attempt at Iago, whenever he's on screen. Actually no, that's a huge disservice to community theatre actors. He's an embarrassment to this show.

I really enjoyed the scenes at The Wall. They did a good job of illustrating just what impossible odds the Nights Watch is facing, but also the ridiculous nobility of this bunch of thieves, murderers and bastards, who didn't flinch over the fact that they are all that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and the Wildlings. And Jon Snow is definitely maturing into a leader of men. His bearing is different, his voice has a gravitas it didn't have before, the men all look to him (literally), and even Alliser Thorne seemed to unconsciously defer.

Speaking of Thorne, I'm glad that they're showing that, even though he's a bully, he takes his oath seriously and he is committed to the Nights Watch. The brief shot of Janos Slynt again looking baffled and out of his depth was amusing. Oh, and it was good to see Grenn and Edd make it back to Castle Black. They live to fight (or die, with the way D&D operate) another day.

I would probably have enjoyed Dany's storyline in the episode, if I cared at all about any characters in it other than Barristan. I really like Emilia Clarke, but cannot abide her character, or her new boy toy to be, Blaahrio (this actor or the other one). She just comes across as more and more the dangerously unhinged Targaryen, lusting for power and personal glory, even if the glory she sees is in the adulation of freed slaves.

Seeing wouldbe boyfriend after wouldbe boyfriend begging to be allowed to kill someone for her just made me roll my eyes. I don't like using the term Mary Sue, but show Dany seems to hit so many of the markers. Smart, beautiful, sassy, doubted only by those who are in the wrong, adored by all others, rarely suffers any form of setback. Yawn.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Helena Dax]

That scene in the sept, wow. There are some moments when I think Cersei's kissing him back and holding him closer, but it totally looks like rape and I read it like rape. And I don't understand why the writers made that choice. Why would they want us -the audience- to hate Jaime? Her wasn't supposed to be an evil character anymore; grey, maybe, but rape isn't grey. 

(I don't  hate him, though. He wasn't a rapist in the books and I find it so out of character I just can't accept  this rape as "real": the writers raped Cersei).

Heh, Littlefinger, I was missing his smarmy ass. Among the female characters, Sansa's got my favourite plot. I find hard to relate to mothers of dragons, crazy mothers of madness or little kids who can kill you in your sleep. But there's something about Sansa and the way she tries to stay alive in the middle of that nightmare that I really admire. 

Oberyn knows how to have fun. I just love the Martells.

The Tyrells are great too and Olenna's right: Margaery was lucky. I can't wait for her next wedding, but I'm sorry they got a new, older Tommen. It makes sense, since Margaery's older too, but my mental picture of Tommen/Margaery in the books is cute and hilarious. Besides, I think an older Tommen changes a couple of things, because her position's stronger if she doesn't have to wait that much to consummate and get pregnant.

I loved  the scenes at Meereen. Daenerys was very smart. I'd be surprised if we saw a fight scene next chapter. 

Shireen is just adorable. Her relationship with ser Davos is one of the few sweet things in the show. 

Watching Ygritte killing  those people was a bit disturbing. Are we still supposed to root for her? Because I don't.

[Ariah]

I can't get behind the fact that the show tries to whitewash Cersei - and the infamous scene in the Sept is another example. So, in order to make Cersei a full-on victim, the writers totally butchered Jaimie in this scene.

Don't get me wrong, the scene was terrible in the book - but it appeared earlier (sort of) and in a bit different context. 

From what I've gathered and tried to salvage from the scene in the episode, Jaimie didn't come into the sept with the intention of raping Cersei. I shall believe that he came to comfort her - but then she asked him to kill Tyrion. And then she kissed him - and pushed him away. Again.

Now, the scene logically should have ended there and then. If character development is a thing to go by.

Why did the writers decide to go this route - I still suspect they're crazy fans of Cersei and want her to be semi-redeemable. If they trully don't see anything wrong with how the scene played out, they should keep away from strong female figures, pronto. No, i take that back. They should keep away from ANY female figures whatsoever.

This was rape, there was no consent, and it was totally unncecessary - in the series even more than in the books.

But I'm pretty sure the scene won't have any conequences (apart from the disdain the Unsullied Watchers will once more feel for Jaimie).

[OakGoblinFly]

I was afraid that this episode was going to be a bit of a letdown after the Purple Wedding, I was pleasantly surprised that it was mostly entertaining.

I adored the scene with Tommen with Tywin; it nicely illustrated the point that Tyrion made- that Tywin would find Tommen more malleable than Joffrey. 

The scene between Podrick and Tyrion was beautifully written and the acting was exceptional.  I really felt for Podrick when Tyrion was “ordering” him to leave him behind.

Sam, oh dear Sam.  You’re such a noble sort aren’t you?  I find that I like TV!Sam and Gilly so much more than Book!Sam and Gilly – the two actors bring so much depth and life to the characters.

In the books I’ve always liked Jon’s story when he was at The Wall compared to his merry adventures with the Wildings and television Jon is no different.  I thought that his one brief scene was important as it shows that Jon is beginning to think in terms of strategy and what’s best for the Night’s Watch.

Shireen is wonderful and I liked her scene with Davos.

Littlefinger, how I’ve missed you.

The brothel scene was a bit excessive for me – yea, I know HBO and all that stuff.  I did enjoy the conversation between Oberyn and Tywin.

Arya and The Hound continue to be the weirdest road-buddy team ever.  I did like Arya using her cunning when speaking with the farmer and his daughter and really liked the little “see, I can survive out here” look she gave The Hound once the farmer invited them to stay for the night. 

Just when I thought that Jamie and Cersie couldn’t get any creepier you show me that scene (which was worse on the show). 

Everything Dany bores me to tears and I felt that the episode came to a screeching halt when she appeared.

[mac123x]

Also, what the hell is his accent supposed to be?

Aidan Gillen is Irish, and he’s not even trying for RP Engilish like he did the first two seasons.  Maybe it’s a deliberate choice, since Littlefinger is becoming disengaged from court and more independent, but it is really distracting.

Everything Dany bores me to tears and I felt that the episode came to a screeching halt when she appeared.

I love Dany’s character but I totally agree that her storyline is getting dull.  I blame being a Bookwalker.  The Unsullied probably think she’s marching across Slaver’s Bay, building up an army that will then head to Westeros, whereas we know she’s going to stall out and spend months spinning her wheels in Meereen.

[Izzyboy]

I loved the Tywin/Tommen scene.  I almost felt like Tywin wasn't just trying to teach Tommen, but (no so) subtlely scold Cersei.  I noticed he kept looking over Tommen had at Cersei when he made a point, and especially when he said "Your brother was not a good king...".  I thikn of lot of what he was saying was directed to Cersei as if to say, "I'm done mourning that little psychopath, he wasn't even that good of a king to begin with".  Cold as ice that Tywin...

Watching Ygritte killing  those people was a bit disturbing. Are we still supposed to root for her? Because I don't.

 

I actually kinda liked that Ygritte participated wholeheartedly in that.  Make no mistake, she's a wildling through and through.  It was easy to forget just why the Night's Watch is fighting them over the last season, but scenes like that hammer home that point...

Loved the Tyrion/Pod scene...I'm so much more a fan of Show!Pod than I am Book!Pod 

I also loved the scene with Oberyn and Tywin.

[Lord of Bones]

In episode 1 Arya asks the Hound why he didn't steal from Joffrey before leaving and he claims he's "not a thief" and "a man's got to have a code". Now he's stealing silver in the next episode he appears in?

Jaime saving Brienne from rape and then raping Cersei in the sept was awful. She did not seem to give consent at any point. His redemption arc in the eyes of non-book readers will be set back big time.

Hoping that's the last brothel scene we see. I don't understand Tywin walking into a brothel to interrupt Oberyn. He can't wait to talk to him afterward, somewhere more appropriate? I can't imagine Book-Tywin walking into a brothel to interrupt an orgy. Nice to establish Oberyn's knowledge of poison and that he's now a judge.

Stannis talking of going to the wall at the end of season 3 for dramatic purposes and now no mention is made of it and he's threatening Davos? Looks like the Iron Bank/Stannis connection is being made much earlier. Will Davos still be going to White Harbour?

Sam/Gilly was boring and different from the books but I suppose they had to get her out of Castle Black for the upcoming battle.

Littlefinger/Sansa was good, I'd prefer if he explained what happened in more detail, maybe that will be in a future episode. I always thought Margaery was in on it in the books too but I'm fine with this.

Dany/Daario was good but the wink from Daario before throwing the knife was a little corny. The champion of Meereen did look like how I pictured it in the books, which was nice.

[OakGoblinFly]

I love Dany’s character but I totally agree that her storyline is getting dull.  I blame being a Bookwalker.  The Unsullied probably think she’s marching across Slaver’s Bay, building up an army that will then head to Westeros, whereas we know she’s going to stall out and spend months spinning her wheels in Meereen.

For me, the problem with Show!Dany is the same one as with Book!Dany --- her story-line has remained unchanged since Astapor - basically march to a city, demand entry into the city, demandfreedom for the slaves, shout about being Daenerys Stormborn, and then call in the dragons.  Heck, Dany even mentioned this during her speech in this episode.

[DigitalCount]

The only thing I can do with the Jaime/Cersei scene is say that there was a moment when she grabs him and pulls him in (there is, but it's hard to see and people could be forgiven for missing it). It's not as clear as "yes, do it now" but it's...something, I guess.

[Joystickenvy]

For me, the problem with Show!Dany is the same one as with Book!Dany --- her story-line has remained unchanged since Astapor - basically march to a city, demand entry into the city, demandfreedom for the slaves, shout about being Daenerys Stormborn, and then call in the dragons.  Heck, Dany even mentioned this during her speech in this episode.

I feel like GRRM set out intending to write a much shorter series and then due to popularity or whatever stretched the story out. I expect he didn't have much planned for her other than coming to KL to try to take her throne, but now he's not ready to do that yet so we get Meeren.

[Haleth]

The sept scene in the book is on the rapey side, and the show scene is very blatantly rape, so if the director thinks she was "consenting at the end" he either massively failed with the scene or he has some very questionable ideas about "consent." Not to mention the whole idea of she says no, but she really wants it so force the issue til she says yes isn't the most enlightened either. Whether it fits with Jaime's character.....he's not a nice guy and his resentment towards Cersei has been building ever since he returned. His forcing the issue of having sex in the room with their dead son in the book was a very ugly scene, even with the implied 'consent' at the end. So, I don't really have an issue with them making it less ambiguously rapey, but I do have an issue if we were expected to read that as consent.

 

I agree with you completely, joystick.  If the writers and director intended for the act to be a rape, so be it.  But they cannot backpedal against viewer reaction in order to preserve Jaime's character by saying, welllll, she wanted it in the end.  No.  It doesn't work that way.

I thought I'd miss Strong Belwas but the scene with Daario as Dany's champion worked fine.

I can do without any more orgies, thank you.  We get the idea that Oberyn and Ellaria are sexually adventurous.

Charles Dance was magnificent.  The scene where he instructed Tommen was fantastic.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Haleth

[Danny Franks]

I feel like GRRM set out intending to write a much shorter series and then due to popularity or whatever stretched the story out. I expect he didn't have much planned for her other than coming to KL to try to take her throne, but now he's not ready to do that yet so we get Meeren.

I feel that he set out to write a more traditional story, but took so long to get there, and bought into his own publicity as 'different from your usual fantasy author' that he drew this precursor garbage out for too long. And now he's stuck with this unwieldy, sprawling story that I think he genuinely doesn't know what to do with.

I also think he got carried away with all the political machinations and rivalries, and completely lost touch with the idea that there is this supernatural threat that needs to be dealt with, Life imitating art, I guess, because he seems to have been writing all that Kings Landing stuff as a way of showing how these people are too caught up in their petty conspiracies and plots to see the bigger picture.

He's got two books to gather Dany, Meereen, Tyrion, the Ironborn, the Dornish, Aegon, Kings Landing, Littlefinger, Sansa, Jon, the Nights Watch, Bran, Stannis, Bolton, Jaime, Brienne, Lady Stoneheart, Arya etc into a coherent and satisfying conclusion. My guess? No chance.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Alapaki]

For me, the problem with Show!Dany is the same one as with Book!Dany --- her story-line has remained unchanged since Astapor - basically march to a city, demand entry into the city, demandfreedom for the slaves, shout about being Daenerys Stormborn, and then call in the dragons.  Heck, Dany even mentioned this during her speech in this episode.

 

And don't forget those Degrassi-like tingly feelings she gets over her various male suitors.  I really wish they'd just make Dany's storyline a web-series and give us more of the characters whose storyline is actually going somewhere.

I'm confused about the Stannis timeline/motivation in the show.  Am I correct in understanding that he decided to go north at the end of last season, and even though he knows the needs at the Wall are urgent, he isn't actually leaving yet because he needs an army, and for some reason thinks that burning people up is going to help him recruit people to the cause?  And so Davos is going to take a loan from the dreaded Iron Bank so they can go attack wildlings and snow zombies?

 

I think the actors who play Stannis, Davos and Stannis' daughter are all so good I can understand the producers' desire to keep them on-screen.  But I think this gets up against the problem of there being so much they have to cram into this season that there's really not much room to do anything substantive with Stannis until, presumably, at least the last-half of the season.

[Izzyboy]

In episode 1 Arya asks the Hound why he didn't steal from Joffrey before leaving and he claims he's "not a thief" and "a man's got to have a code". Now he's stealing silver in the next episode he appears in?

 

To me it makes sense, at least from the Hound's point of view, although his point of view is certainly slanted to fit his own desires.  When he was employed by Joffrey, if he was given an order he carried it out...no questions asked.  To him, his job was to carry out whatever he was commanded to do which is why he didn't have an issue running down the Butcher's boy.  To him it was just business.  Similarly I think thats why he didn't steal from Joffrey when he left, paying one last respects to his (former) employer.  Now that he's on his own all bets are off.  Again, I think that's the rationalization he's making to himself, his way of excusing his own behavior.

[Independent George]

I feel like GRRM set out intending to write a much shorter series and then due to popularity or whatever stretched the story out. I expect he didn't have much planned for her other than coming to KL to try to take her throne, but now he's not ready to do that yet so we get Meeren.

It's all about the five-year gap.

Most of FFC/DWD wasn't supposed to exist - the fourth book was supposed to pick up five years later, with Bran, Arya, and Sansa having completed their respective internships, and the storylines starting to converge. Since GRRM originally planned to skip over most of what happened in that period, he didn't have a clear plan on the particulars. So once the five-year gap was nixed, he had to start from scratch and fill in a lot of details without any of the planning that went into the first three volumes. He's admitted that he wrote himself into a corner with Dany's storyline (the 'Meereenese Knot'), and much of the delay in FFC/DWD was his attempt to extricate himself from it.

[cosmic1]

It has been so long since I read the books, that I can't remember many of the details.  However, my reaction to the Jaime rape of Cersie beside their dead son was, 'wow, what an f'd up family.'  LOL.  It will be interesting to see Cersie get her comeuppance soon. 

Littlefinger really came across as skeevy.  More so than in the book, I thought.  I wonder if they (the authorities) find Dontos in his boat with the necklace and determine it was the necklace?  I don't remember Dontos being killed in the book, either.  I am going to have to reread everything from the beginning. 

(GRRM is fast closing in on Stephen King territory for me with the book series.  I was so frustrated when King wouldn't finish the Gunslinger series that I boycotted everything else he wrote until that was finished.  GRRM needs to finish this series before he works on anything else.  When is the next book coming out?)

[Wilowy]

 

Littlefinger really came across as skeevy.  More so than in the book, I thought.

I thought so too. In the book he did what he did honorably, and while there was an undercurrent of possible skeeve, he never acted on it. So far, anyway.

The actor's speech cadence annoys me no end, which pisses me off because I really like Littlefinger and his pragmatism.