S01.E09: For You I'd Go with Strawberry

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Sean's attempt at getting custody of Jacob causes Letty to falter in a weak moment that could drive a permanent wedge between her and Javier. Christian presents Letty with a legitimate opportunity that could change her life.

 

[magdalene]

Oh, crap, my lovely ship it's all crashed into an ice berg named Sean and it sunk.  All ruined in the second to last episode.  I understand that people sabotage themselves in their weak moments. But I feel so bad for Javier.  He didn't deserve this at all. 

One thing I was glad about is that Javier said no to Letty.  I am glad for his sake.

[CoconutGal]

Snap! Boy, oh boy.... not only did Letty falter,,, Sean dogged her after sex by saying she was better in his memory! Ugh, what an insult to her dignity! And, poor Javier.... he saw her in bed with that scum bag! Javier couldn't kill Sean for her,,, the Feds are already hot on his trail! Sigh!!!!,,,,, & Letty turned on Javier! For real, I'd probably trust Javier before that FBI agent.  Episode 9 was just TOOOOOO many unexpected turns ??

Edited January 4, 2017 by CoconutGal

[NorthstarATL]

Well, I hated that. I was HOPING that Letty wasn't just being self-destructive, and that she had a plan up her sleeve, but I could not think of any except getting both she AND Sean disqualified as decent parents, which would leave Jacob with his grandmother, and maintain his status quo. Or that she was going to attempt to kill Sean herself, since Javier had refused. But, no, just a sad shag.

  Even worse, the entire storyline makes no sense. As others have pointed out, Letty has no business anywhere near a courthouse. States LOVE probation and parole violators. Pure revenue and no statute of limitations. Letty would be behind bars as quick as the attorneys did a background check.

[magdalene]

Yes,  as a parole violator she would be arrested in the court house. 

I hated this episode. It destroyed my love for Letty and for the show.  Boy, did she fuck Javier over, and cheating with that slime bag Sean....just urgh.

[thesupremediva1]

My flight was delayed a few hours and I decided to watch once I got home, despite the late hour and work tomorrow. I am now in emotional shambles and unable to sleep. Everything has gone to hell.

More thoughts once my insides don't feel puréed and set ablaze. Poor Jav.

Edited January 4, 2017 by thesupremediva1

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Getting past the absurdity of Letty having any standing in that hearing, let alone that she isn't back in irons...

The worst part for me is that she was given such a high moral ground with her speechifying as to how sheeeeeeee knows Jacob sooooooo much better than Sean.  She's been with him how long?  10 days?  Treacly writing like this ruins shows which try to be edgy.  Yes, it is exactly the type of claptrap Letty the addict would fall upon.  She would use anything she could think of.  Certainly.  My issue is that we are meant to buy it and let our natural empathy for any decent mom inform and cause us to root for her.

She is irredeemable unless and until she is put back in prison.  Her bottom there the first time was clearly not deep enough.

On the other hand, absent a current finding that an addict is using - which Letty is not facing (another absurdity), the mother gets custody in the USA. 

It is also very difficult for me to care that Javier is thisclose to being caught.  He's had every chance to take care of himself in other ways.  He chooses to remain a murderer.  He knew better than to get involved with a Letty.  

Sean is a rotten person, too.  But, darned if he didn't speak an ultimate truth:  People, like leopard spots, don't change.  He is at least smart and disciplined enough, for now, to have figured out a way to thrive in the world, crooked as it is.

Where on earth does this show go, other than a Bonnie and Clyde perpetually on the run the Fugitive theme?  Obviously, Christian is going to team up with Letty.  ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.  Oh.  that resentment speech Javier gave her?  Christian has guaranteed a resentment as hot as a thousand suns.  

Such a shame.  The show was a great concept.  The casting for the leads was excellent.  Yet, as almost all shows do, it reached too far, too soon.  Now, it has nowhere good to go.  So, go it will.  :(

[gibasi]

It is so hard to root for a character who is as hell bent as Letty is on destroying herself.  The words are hardly out of the judge's mouth before she has a bottle of vodka which she is drinking straight from the bottle--no glasses for Letty!  And that she would sleep with Sean?  I just don't understand why she would humiliate herself like that.  If she had a plan I could buy it but after professing so much disdain and contempt for him as a person for her to put herself in the position she did.  She ceded all power and control to him.  It makes me feel so much sympathy for her poor mother.  

And she sold out Javier!  WTF, Letty!

[TaraS1]

Man, I so wanted the whole thing with Letty and Sean in the motel to be some kind of trap that she and Javier had set for him.  Not to kill him, but to somehow pull something off where they could use it against him in court, blackmail him to leave town, anything.  But alas...what did happen veered way too far into soap territory, with Sean seeing her through the window, the hate sex, Javier walking in, etc.

I have a million other thoughts about this episode, but the main thing I want to say is that despite my many issues with it, Michelle Dockery was fucking incredible throughout.  If this was the kind of show that got recognized with Emmy and Golden Globe nominations, this is the episode that would win them for her. Such a painful, brilliant performance.

[Joimiaroxeu]

If Javier is off the show, I am too. I'm having a hard time seeing how it'll continue to a second season anyway unless Letty and Javier move to another part of the country if not the world. Plus, the FBI agent will need to get struck with amnesia or a permanent coma. Was this show only intended to be one season?

[attica]

The moment where FBIperson wipes Christian's mouth was, um, pregnant with connotation, right? Love the acting choices the two of them make. 

[TaraS1]

11 minutes ago, attica said:

The moment where FBIperson wipes Christian's mouth was, um, pregnant with connotation, right? Love the acting choices the two of them make. 

I had the exact same "WTF?!?" expression on my face that Letty had when that happened lol.  If those two have something going on, that's definitely a loophole Letty could hopefully use to her advantage to try and get out of this mess.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Of all the wonderful, exciting and amusing places for the show to go, they got stuck on this custody issue.  WHY? It's the least interesting part of the series. It never worked for me and I disliked the whole thing about her claiming to be a good mom.  What a waste. Sad really.  Maybe, someone will package Letty's character into another series where the writers can do a better job.  It just really ticks me off when it seems the producers, writers, etc.  think the viewers are idiots. You can't just throw out implausible storylines, scenes, etc. and take for granted that viewers will just accept it.  

Edited January 4, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Dream Boy]

I'm not even sure what to say after watching last night's episode. I walked away disliking pretty much everyone except maybe Javier and Jacob.

[thesupremediva1]

I can't get past the plot of last night's ep. Letty would never roll on Javier. Even for Jacob. She's just not that person. I don't even believe she'd sleep with Sean. 

When Sean came to the hotel, I thought he was going to rape her. And I thought, oh Lord, Javier is going to walk in on this and kill him. And that will be a trite trope.

I didn't realize that would have been best-case scenario. Letty's nowhere near fall-down drunk and she's falling into bed with Sean? Nope. Not buying it. No official decision was made about Jacob yet. There's no way. And Javier finds them in bed together? Ew. An even worse trope. 

I almost understood her pushing Javier away during the custody thing. She was just frustrated and, just as Sean said she would, taking it out on the one person closest to her. 

Visually speaking, this episode was a perfect mirror of the pilot. Letty walked out of Javier's closet while he was sleeping, shut the door, and he never knew she was there. This time, Javier walked into the hotel room, saw Letty and Sean, shut the door, and she never knew he was there. Broke my freaking heart.

As someone who watched Alias religiously and spent too much time looking for the number 47 in each ep, I enjoyed the motel room numbers. Javier and Letty both stayed in 213 at the Danville Value Inn. Javier's room that Letty robbed in ep. 1 was room 1112. If you're a dork like me, then you appreciate that meeting in 1112 led "213" over the course of 9 eps. 

I am all for suspension of disbelief, but yes, there's no way Letty would be able to get her son back. I am suspending disbelief that she wasn't arrested - with Christian going down for crimes, they'll have a hard time proving that anything went right or wrong with Christian's parole clients. It might take weeks for someone to pick up his workload and track her down or file paperwork to have her arrested. But she is in no way fit to be a full-time parent. I was rooting for Estelle to keep custody.

I'm also not exactly opposed to Sean's philosophy that he deserves a chance to know his son. He's not an A+ human being, but neither is Letty. There is no reason he shouldn't be able to have visitation rights. I can't get on board with Letty's crusade against him. Jacob contacted him, and it looks like he's making a real effort. Until I see otherwise, I'm not going to believe he's evil.

Jav broke my heart. Between the note, Letty's ill treatment of him, and the way he expressed concern for Jacob, I just felt sick for him. He doesn't deserve this. The best I can hope for is that he gets away. I was relieved he refused to kill Sean. I knew he wouldn't go there. 

Thank goodness, among the myriad of character assassinations that took place, Jav is still in tact. I think I'd rather watch the Javier show with side portions of Letty. And at this point, I know that's a problem. I would have rooted for Jetty until the end of days, but her texting "philanthropist" to Christian killed it for me. There's no coming back from that. 

Maybe even worse was her sleeping with Sean. I felt violated just watching that scene. Kudos to the visual effects people and the director, because I think that was supposed to feel sick and wrong. I wanted to shower afterward. Also, her "washing up" scene afterward reminded me of the Homeland pilot when we first meet Carrie Mathison. It's a toss-up as to which of them is more messed up, and which of their flawed lovers is a worse human (ok, Brody's worse, Javier is perfect in my eyes). 

I will have more thoughts later. Sorry for the brain dump.

[magdalene]

I could have forgiven Letty for sleeping with Sean. Self-destructive crap like that happens with addicts.  I could have forgiven her for her continued delusion that she should have custody of poor Jacob.

But the moment she betrayed Javier to the FBI I was done with her.  To grass on him like that is unforgivable to me.

I used to dread that this show might not get a second season because of low ratings. But now I think that it's okay.  I don't want to watch this show without Javier. And I don't want to watch the continued disgusting fuck-ups of Letty with the likes of Sean.

[thesupremediva1]

OH, also, can I ask what happened to this line of thought:

"How will you make sure it doesn't get all f(&$#d up again?"

"I thought you could help."

And he did. So the minute he refused to murder your ex you turn on him? Letty hasn't been eschewing Javier's help since episode 4. The turnabout was just too great to comprehend. They can't open these relationships and then shut them down the minute it becomes a convenient plot device for eye-roll-worthy drama.

I was initially relived this wasn't a caper-of-the-week show like Alias, but damn, I didn't sign up for family court. I don't want Javier trying to be a full-time dad, nor do I want to try to root for Letty to be a primary caregiver when she's not equipped. Get Javier another job, have them pull a heist, get them to another resort - SOMETHING. I miss the wigs and outfits. Part of my frustration is that I don't think the actor who plays Jacob is particularly good. Not to rag on the kid, he's serviceable, but the rest of the cast is top-notch, so scenes focusing on him mean content and enjoyment plummet. 

Can we also decide if Javier is good at his job or not? Because if he is, I want the FBI plotline solved and shelved. There's no way for him or Letty to stay put with the FBI on their tail. And that means no more of Letty's family and no more Christian. If he's not, then he's going to jail and the show as I know it is over. They've painted themselves into a corner after this ep, which I find infuriating because just a week ago this storyline was wide open with endlessly glorious possibilities. I'm seriously praying they pull out a great finale that gives me hope for a second season. I have invested emotionally in these characters and I want to see more of them. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by thesupremediva1

[helenamonster]

I guess I'm in the minority of liking this episode, and I definitely don't think it's the downfall of the whole show (content wise, can't speak to ratings or if TNT will decide to renew it). There's still another episode left, which means these things that are frustrating now can get resolved.

Javier was spot on when he said Letty would regret it and resent him if he killed Sean. Not because of Letty's specific personality, but because he's seen that resentment from other clients, like Daphne's husband. It doesn't matter to him with those people, but Letty is important to him and he knew if he killed Sean it would destroy their relationship forever.

As for Letty ratting him out, I have a feeling they're going to find a way out of it. Perhaps when she did it she felt like it was a win/win. Javier was leaving anyway and could prevent himself from being found if he wanted to, and she gets custody of Jacob. Maybe if he wasn't leaving, she wouldn't have done it. That's the vibe I got anyway, since she didn't make the decision to rat on him until after the phone call. I just have to believe there's still another twist coming. I've watched enough television in my life to know that this isn't it.

Sean isn't a great person by any means, but I do think he's cleaned up the parts of his life that would be harmful to Jacob and I think he deserves to have some kind of role in his life. I don't know if full custody is the answer; Jacob and Sean don't know each other that well and there's no way to tell if they'll live well together, so I think Estelle should maintain primary custody and Sean should get visitation, maybe be able to have Jacob on weekends and holidays, see how they get along and then go from there.

Letty, on the other hand, hasn't earned the right to be back in Jacob's life, as we've discussed here. She has the romanticized ideas about being his mom, because they're so much alike or whatever, but she has proven time and again that she has no interest in putting in the work that's necessary for her to be a good parent. But I think the irony of all her fucked up choices possibly being the path to custody works for this show. In early seasons of shows like this, it makes sense for the protagonist to fail upwards. But if the show ends up having any longevity, then Letty will be in for another big fall. Someday the bad parts of her life will catch up with her and she'll be screwed.

[teddysmom]

I was wondering if she & Javier will take off, and she'll leave Jacob with Estelle. Maybe she'll do something to Sean so he can't get custody.

I also was wondering if the whole FBI thing was a scam, that these are bad guys looking for Javier for some reason. 

Quote

I used to dread that this show might not get a second season because of low ratings. But now I think that it's okay.  I don't want to watch this show without Javier. And I don't want to watch the continued disgusting fuck-ups of Letty with the likes of Sean

I said the same thing. When it looked like Javier was taking off, I said to myself, well Fuck he's the only reason I watch this. Also, I don't care how drunk she was, she shouldn't have slept with Sean. Gross. 

I wouldn't mind it getting a second season. It's kind of grown on me. I really like Michelle Dockery.  I read she's doing a western for Netflix or something so it sounds like post Downton Abbey is being pretty good to her. 

[zxy556575]

Amidst all the bummer storylines, I still found time to snort derisively at Christian claiming that getting arrested and basically blowing up in his life was worth it for one magic day of Larceny With Letty. GMAFB.

Edited January 4, 2017 by lordonia

[atlantaloves]

I love this show so much, but man, damn, Letty can never be a good mother, she loves being a con, period....but still, I hope it remains a series, because I love the screwed up characters and the wacked out story line, but I'm a very sick sissy. How she could sleep with that creep again beats the hell out of me...there is not enough liquor in the world, and honey I've been there. Yipes. 

 

 

eh 

[justmehere]

I'm hoping that Letty's hesitation in sending the text was her forming some kind of plan. I really hope, in the opposite direction, that it wasn't a thought of: well, he's leaving, so screw him. She's too calculating, I think, for that.

When she isolated herself in the motel room, I'm glad it was "only" vodka rather than her scoring drugs. Shows a little presence of mind. Still... Sean... ugh. I thought she was doing better than that. She's practically a kleptomaniac with the stealing, but she has been making some progress otherwise. Fear and addictive behavior is one thing, and I could've even understood her picking up some random person. Sleeping with the person who supposedly ruined her life and who is the current enemy... I can't fathom any rationale in her mind except utter and complete self-loathing and wanting to prove to herself how awful she is. Even so... it's hard to see it with that particular person. It's beyond self-destructive and hardly even makes sense. She was scared and wanted temporary escape; she wasn't trying to obliterate herself. If he'd already gotten custody, maybe then I could see it.

I'm not sure how Javi could overlook that. However, if the show does (hopefully) continue, I can't see them writing him out. He's too central a figure and the connection between him and Letty is too golden. I choose to believe that it's just set up for the finale and they will end up escaping together somehow, leaving Jacob with Estelle, or if he is with Sean, getting him back becomes a goal for them. (Naturally Sean would show true colors and Jacob would want to leave.)

The moment between Christian and the FBI agent... she is so frickin' tough that it's hard to believe her either accepting an offer of "service" from him for the deal or offering a deal in return for service (I'd guess the latter if anything). On the other hand, she announces her position every other minute "I'm an FBI Agent!" which seems a little bit odd and makes me wonder a bit about her and her toughness. Maybe that is something she does: scare the pants off suspects, literally. The oddest part is her showing infatuation in front of Letty. Whatever the case, I hope it is a weak spot Letty can exploit.

Can't wait for the finale, but I don't want the season or the show to be over. At least one more season. It doesn't seem like something they could stretch out for too long anyway.

[vm2017]

This episode gutted me enough to come out of lurkdom.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised by Letty's choices.  I can understand why she'd turn on Javier.  She's getting the life she thinks she wants on a silver platter.  I think that would be tempting for anyone.  I'm willing to wait on the next episode before writing her or them off.  

I'm having more trouble understanding her having sex with Sean.  Someone above mentioned self-loathing and that's about all I can come up with too.  If they were trying to play some old attraction/buried feelings - their scenes were way off the mark.  MD played Letty as terrified/angry/disgusted with Sean before the hotel. 

I would watch if Javier left; but other than Spike from BtVS, I can't think of another serial killer I've rooted for more :)  I started watching because of MD/Lady Mary.  The continued draw has been the Javier/Letty relationship though.  Their scenes are the ones I look fwd to.   I just don't care if Letty gets Jacob.  She shouldn't get him and if she did, it would be boring television.

5 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I was wondering if she & Javier will take off, and she'll leave Jacob with Estelle. Maybe she'll do something to Sean so he can't get custody.

This is exactly what I think happens.  I really hope next week is a season and not series finale.  Somehow, she has to get Javier off the hook.  Either he turns snitch on his clients or they flip the FBI lady or they go on the run together.  I'd probably prefer option 2 the most because I like her relationships with Estelle/Tiffany (and I could keep Rob!).  It would be too hard to incorporate them into the show if they were on the run.

[zxy556575]

Useless threat of the week: If the damned writers don't bring Javier and Letty back together in the finale or if they end on some kind of cliffhanger, I will cut them. Use one of those $19.99 background checking sites to find their addresses, fly to wherever that is, go to Target and buy a paring knife, call an Uber to their houses, and take a couple of good jabs.

Also? That was the stupidest quote possible for the episode title. So there!

Edited January 5, 2017 by lordonia

[magdalene]

I think Letty will be arrested at the end. And the way I am feeling right now about her I am quite okay with that.

My favorite characters now as we come to the end are Javier, Rob and Estelle. 

[TaraS1]

12 hours ago, vm2017 said:

I'm having more trouble understanding her having sex with Sean.  Someone above mentioned self-loathing and that's about all I can come up with too.  If they were trying to play some old attraction/buried feelings - their scenes were way off the mark.  MD played Letty as terrified/angry/disgusted with Sean before the hotel. 

In the "Inside the Episode" clip on YouTube, Michelle made a comment re: the old chemistry between Letty and Sean and how they were "together for so long."  If that's the case, I wish they had made that more clear to us, because I never got that impression from the few mentions we had of their relationship.  I didn't even think it was a relationship.  To me, it just sounded like he was some lowlife who introduced her to meth, she got pregnant and that was it.  

And while Sean may not be evil, I didn't find anything particularly good about him either.  I just thought he came off like an asshole.  Not to mention how gross it was that he basically pushed into her room, and didn't stop when she told him to and slapped his hands away. (Even if she didn't "mean it," which is a whole other ball of wax and not exactly a great message for the show to send.)  This is not the kind of man who needs to be a father to Jacob.  Hell, at this point, Rob is the best candidate to be Jacob's dad.

All that being said, I'm reserving my full judgment on everything until we see what happens in the finale.  I'm still rooting 100% for Letty & Javier to be together.

Edited January 5, 2017 by TaraS1

[Hanahope]

It always annoys me when shows portray legal proceedings as instantaneous.  As if Sean could walk in one day, file a petition for custody, and get a hearing the next day.  Or that a judge would make a decision after a couple of days.  Or that a custody evaluator would make a recommendation based on one hearing.  This is why clients get frustrated with lawyers when actual real life events don't happen in a week, but rather take months and sometimes more than a year.

I know for TV they have to move things along, but it is annoying.  For example, a custody evaluator would take a few weeks, require both parents/caretakers and the kid to undergo separate counseling/evaluation sessions, and even assuming the evaluator felt that the non-custodial parent should be more involved, if that non-custodial parent had never been in the child's life previously, they would start with visitation rights, and then move up to joint custody.  There's no way an evaluator would outright recommend that a child be taken from one parent/caretaker and given to another, who has never heretofore been in the child's life, especially since that would require taking the child out of the state.  Obviously assuming the child wasn't in danger with the current caretaker (of which there's no evidence in this case).  Plus, the custodial care taker would be allowed some time to investigate the petitioner's past to determine whether it is still affecting them currently.

But back to the show, I thought that Javier's 'raison d'tre' was supposed to be that he only killed 'for justice', when people deserved it, which at least gave him some redeeming factors, not just because he was being paid.  Him admitting that he really did just want the money, he didn't care otherwise, makes him a bad person.  I don't care how good he may be to Letty and others, he kills people for money, no matter what.  That doesn't make him a good person.  Here was the perfect opporunity to establish that Daphne wasn't a good person (as per the novella), and the show didn't do it.  It just showed him killing a father as well.

The show seems to suggest that when Javier is with Letty, maybe he'll stop, but there's been no indication that he's interested in taking up some other line of work, such as cooking, nor is Letty necessarily better when she's with him either, she still steals.  So its still kindof hard to root for these criminals.

[attica]

48 minutes ago, TaraS1 said:

In the "Inside the Episode" clip on YouTube, Michelle made a comment re: the old chemistry between Letty and Sean and how they were "together for so long."  If that's the case, I wish they had made that more clear to us, because I never got that impression from the few mentions we had of their relationship.

Yeah, I agree that what we got onscreen was not at all an evocation of a former chemistry/connection. To me, Letty just looked desperate and nihilistic. 'I've lost everything; I might as well fuck this guy with his hand in my pants.' Joyless, regretful, gross.

And  I don't get (besides bad writing, that is) why Estelle didn't pipe up in the hearing and say, look y'all. Leave the kid with me, because that's the only stable home he'll ever have.

[TaraS1]

27 minutes ago, attica said:

And  I don't get (besides bad writing, that is) why Estelle didn't pipe up in the hearing and say, look y'all. Leave the kid with me, because that's the only stable home he'll ever have.

That's what surprised me - that the custody fight was between Letty and Sean, instead of Sean and Estelle.  Letty's parental rights were terminated!  Javier said it when he busted into the motel at the end of the pilot and started reciting her history.  She has no legal claim to Jacob whatsoever if her rights were terminated, and Estelle would be considered his legal parent.  And even overlooking that, Letty had only been allowed to legally be around Jacob for what, a few days at the time of the hearing?  I work in a court setting and it doesn't really bother me when shows get legal stuff wrong for the sake of the story, but I want it to be for a good story.  

[thesupremediva1]

I know nothing about custody battles, so this is just a random question:

Is it possible Letty had to go for custody because Sean, as father, would automatically be the preferred guardian over a grandmother? Is it possible that the only person who could prevent Sean from getting custody would be the mother, Letty?

Not that Letty has any business being a full-time mother - a restraining order had been in place and was lifted just a few days prior - but maybe she was Estelle's only choice in the matter? If Letty was to somehow get custody, she'd likely be living with Estelle anyway. 

As you can see, I'm trying desperately to have some of this make a lick of sense.

[Hanahope]

2 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Is it possible Letty had to go for custody because Sean, as father, would automatically be the preferred guardian over a grandmother? Is it possible that the only person who could prevent Sean from getting custody would be the mother, Letty?

All things being equal, yes, a parent is generally preferred over a grandparent.  But, in this case, the child had only ever lived with either the mother or the grandmother, and never with the father.  Thus, again, it would make more sense to potentially joint custody, in order to determine whether the father, given his history, would in fact be a good caretaker.  The primary basis is "the best interests of the child".  It would generally not be in the best interest to move the child from a life he has previously only known, into a completely different life, with completely different people, when such could instead be done in a more gradual method.  The court evaluator should have suggested this.

[TaraS1]

2 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I know nothing about custody battles, so this is just a random question:

Is it possible Letty had to go for custody because Sean, as father, would automatically be the preferred guardian over a grandmother? Is it possible that the only person who could prevent Sean from getting custody would be the mother, Letty?

I would absolutely say yes if they hadn't told us Letty's rights were terminated.  I don't know if it's different in every state, but in my state, if you have your parental rights terminated, that's it.  You have no legal standing, you're no longer considered the parent in any way, and you basically no longer exist in the eyes of the law in terms of that child.  So Letty would have to jump through many hoops, with lawyers filing motions and petitions saying her rights were terminated unfairly or under duress or something to even try and get her foot back in the door to be recognized as Jacob's parent.  She couldn't just walk into that hearing and be like, "Hi, I'm the mom, here to get full custody!"

But clearly the writers decided to take some dramatic license lol.

[SunnyBeBe]

Great observations above and correct analysis on Child Custody cases. I've handled them for years. All they needed was a proper legal adviser. 

I actually don't want Letty with Javier.  She will ruin his life. Just like she will ruin Jacob's life.  A train wreck is amusing to watch for only so long.

I think that I'm done with the show. I'll come back here to see what happened. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[vm2017]

10 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

n the "Inside the Episode" clip on YouTube, Michelle made a comment re: the old chemistry between Letty and Sean and how they were "together for so long."  If that's the case, I wish they had made that more clear to us, because I never got that impression from the few mentions we had of their relationship.  I didn't even think it was a relationship.  To me, it just sounded like he was some lowlife who introduced her to meth, she got pregnant and that was it.  

And this is why I consider this a good show, but not a great one.  It's got all the pieces for a great one (story, acting, chemistry), but the writing is just OK.  Before this Letty/Sean nugget, I would have called it meandering.  If there was a long way to get to a point, that's the way they went.  Now, I kinda wish they went the long way again because what they thought came across?  Did not.

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

But back to the show, I thought that Javier's 'raison d'tre' was supposed to be that he only killed 'for justice', when people deserved it, which at least gave him some redeeming factors, not just because he was being paid.  Him admitting that he really did just want the money, he didn't care otherwise, makes him a bad person.  I don't care how good he may be to Letty and others, he kills people for money, no matter what.  That doesn't make him a good person.  Here was the perfect opporunity to establish that Daphne wasn't a good person (as per the novella), and the show didn't do it.  It just showed him killing a father as well.

I never bought into the "he only kills bad people, so he must be good" line.  It's total bs.  Who is telling him about the bad potential victim - the person who wants them dead.  Conflict of interest, no?  To the show's credit, they've never romanticized what he does.  He did start out thinking he was doing a good service.  Later he either became apathetic or pragmatic about it and figured, "this person is going to die anyways, might as well be at my hand."  It almost sounds like job burnout ;)  Get in, do the work, go home.  Rinse and repeat. 

Even the actor hit on this which I was pleased with.  I can't remember the interview but he was being led to say something about how Javier isn't all bad since he only kills bad people.  And he came back with basically, "uh, he still kills people.  He is bad." LOL!  Just because he does bad things, doesn't mean he isn't a compelling character capable of generating sympathy though.  My heart broke for him this episode...how totally resigned he was about it all :(

20 hours ago, lordonia said:

Also? That was the stupidest quote possible for the episode title. So there!

Yep!!! 

[slf]

They dropped a lot of established threads in this episode so it was pretty weak for me, easily the worst of the season so far.

Upthread it was mentioned that the mother always gets custody in the USA and I just wanted to point out that most custody arrangements are decided by the couple outside of the court system. When custody is decided by the courts it's given to the father the majority of times, actually. It's a MRA myth that the legal system favors women. The complicating factor here would be race and Letty's past.

Sean's past with porn is hugely off-putting for me, knowing as much as I do about how that industry works and how abusive it is. Rape is incredibly common and anal porn, what Sean was into, is so brutal for the women. Rectal prolapse not only happens frequently it's now its own category. It's revolting and heartbreaking.

[TaraS1]

On 1/4/2017 at 11:48 PM, lordonia said:

Also? That was the stupidest quote possible for the episode title. So there!

Absolutely.  They totally should have used Letty's "Don't be such a drama queen" line since she was the ultimate drama queen in this one.

[helenamonster]

As much as I like Javier as a character, I'll have a really hard time feeling bad for him if he ever gets caught. What Letty did at the end of this episode (assuming she doesn't have a plan) was shitty due to the relationship that they have, but like...dude's a killer. He even admitted he doesn't care if the people he's killing are bad or deserve it anymore. Just because he treats Jacob kindly and has helped Letty through some shit doesn't erase the fact that he's done some inexcusably awful things. He's a complex character, with good qualities and bad qualities, but the bad qualities are really bad and any consequences he suffers aren't unjustified. Imo, of course.

[thesupremediva1]

21 hours ago, slf said:

They dropped a lot of established threads in this episode so it was pretty weak for me, easily the worst of the season so far.

I feel the same way. I recently rewatched every ep in prep for the finale, and this is such an aberration. I hope it's the last of its kind, especially if the series gets a renewal. Every episode is great, with episodes 7 and 8 being real gems... and then we got this dreck. It was like they took everything they build over the last 8 weeks and lit it on fire. The sad part is, I don't think the writers even recognize what they did here - which means it can and will probably happen again. I'm left frustrated and confused.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The thing that genuinely bothered me the most in a deep place was the realization that for all his decency, Javier is very much his father.

I don't know what it is about human nature and genetics, but somehow boys become their fathers - even when they rebel against bad/evil dads.  A significant part of Javier possesses a sweet nature.  However, the early nurturing by that demon for a father created an emptiness in Javy's spirit.  That void could not be filled by a mother who was likely too frightened and certainly weak to counter the horrific example and teachings of the father.

So, Javier ended up choosing a fellow empty soul for a romance.  A very sick and twisted romance.  He has never developed the basic and essential respect for life that most folks almost naturally know.  His pathologies are incredibly strong and every bit as evil as any Sean has - and that dude has some real beauties, too.

Anyway...my realization has made it very difficult to have empathy for anyone in the show.  This is a problem since the writers have gone out of their way to try to establish such - that the evils we see don't reeeeeeally inform who and what the leads are.  Unfortunately, yes.  Yes, that is precisely who they both are.  And that is a difficult truth for this viewer to overcome.

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I feel the same way. I recently rewatched every ep in prep for the finale, and this is such an aberration. I hope it's the last of its kind, especially if the series gets a renewal. Every episode is great, with episodes 7 and 8 being real gems... and then we got this dreck. It was like they took everything they build over the last 8 weeks and lit it on fire. The sad part is, I don't think the writers even recognize what they did here - which means it can and will probably happen again. I'm left frustrated and confused.

The show runner and writer of this show Chad Hodge has another show, called Wayward Pines, which I haven't watched but a friend of mine has.  He told me that show was good and then suddenly at the end of the season it all went bizarre and into the crapper. 

Personally, I think Chad Hodge is clearly talented but also kind of tone deaf to what an audience might see as satisfying drama.

They concentrated on the wrong thing with the whole Jacob custody saga. Nobody in their right mind - no matter how much you may like Letty - would think she should have custody of Jacob or could get custody of Jacob as things stand.

And they blew up the strongest aspect of their whole drama and are blithely cackling about it.

I am not holding my breath that next week will magically fix things.

[pasdetrois]

My good friend who is a psychotherapist always says that damaged souls are drawn to damaged souls. Many people go back to former loved ones that they supposedly hate. So Letty's self-destructive behavior, with the dalliance with Sean, doesn't surprise me. It's the story of her life. I'm not able to "like" the charming Javier because he is a stone cold killer. Jacob belongs with granny because Sean ain't no walk in the park either.

Edited January 7, 2017 by pasdetrois

[Hanahope]

A couple little details I liked.  Letty giving her mom's boyfriend the ring she stole from the hotel/resort/casino jeweler to give to her mom as a wedding ring.  The mom hiding said ring when the fibbie showed up with Christian.  The mom may not like Letty's theivery, but she sure likes the benefits it brings.

[TaraS1]

Estelle hiding the ring was hilarious.  I still struggle with my feelings about Estelle, but I really love some of the choices Lusia Strus makes.  She's great.