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Season 2: Speculation, News and Casting

Meredith Quill

By Meredith Quill
in Westworld

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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

What happen to Ford's little family in that cottage?  Are they just supposed to slowly malfunction now that Ford is not there to maintain them? :P

Was there any guest left in the park during the rebellion / during the host reception ?  Would be interesting to see if there are a pair of mother daughter guests left behind in the park and got shot by the "free" hosts.  How would Maeve react?  

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Pippin

Pippin

My question is: How real does death now become for the hosts?

If we assume that Armistice and Hector have cut a bloody swath through HQ, and then Wyatt/Dolores' army, once offing the despicable board (I'm rooting for Abernathy to rip Charlotte's head off myself) return to HQ and finish the job, where are the medic/techs?

So when a Host is shot and there is no one to fix them, will they cease to exist?

Is this the price for sentience?

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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

34 minutes ago, Pippin said:

So when a Host is shot and there is no one to fix them, will they cease to exist?

If Felix, Sylvester, and the rest of livestock crew can do the job, pretty sure super-intelligent bots can learn how in a jiffy.  

The question is, can they make any bot do the job if no one wants to do it?  If Maeve (for example) programs (ie. forces) some bots to do it, does not that mean the bots enslave their own ???  :P :P

Hmm, "the sentient bots becoming just like their creators" could be a fertile narrative to explore.

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Hanahope

Hanahope

I'm wondering if we will see more about Delos' takeover of WW, an explanation as to exactly what happened to Logan, and when the Delos board started realizing how they could potentially use the clientele information.  Also, Charlotte hinted that there was more than just blackmail, what else is Delos looking for to use the data?  Hopefully we have some confirmation as to what happened to Stubbs and Elise, and will we see Ford again in some incarnation?

I'm assuming some humans, like Felix, will welcome working for the host bots, fixing them up, etc.

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arc

arc

41 minutes ago, Pippin said:

So when a Host is shot and there is no one to fix them, will they cease to exist?

Maeve came back from being irreparably burned in a fire. That is, they had to make a brand new body for her.

Seems to me like host death only means a pause in their life until they're "brought back online". And guns - at least Westworld magic guns* - never seem to cause irreversible damage to their brains, though I guess Maurice (the stray) managed to destroy his with a big rock. So it seems like the usual method to permanently killing a host is to lobotomize it by drilling out its forebrain through the nostril.

Otherwise, "dead" hosts are really just in, well... "a deep and dreamless slumber".

* I'm still not sure how Bernard's gun didn't kill him permanently, besides I guess it turning out that Ford actually did mean to only temporarily kill Bernard.

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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

11 minutes ago, arc said:

I'm still not sure how Bernard's gun didn't kill him permanently, besides I guess it turning out that Ford actually did mean to only temporarily kill Bernard.

Ford told Bernard to end this nightmare, not to kill himself :P

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paulvdb

paulvdb

On 5-12-2016 at 11:23 PM, DarkRaichu said:

If Felix, Sylvester, and the rest of livestock crew can do the job, pretty sure super-intelligent bots can learn how in a jiffy.  

The question is, can they make any bot do the job if no one wants to do it?  If Maeve (for example) programs (ie. forces) some bots to do it, does not that mean the bots enslave their own ???  :P :P

Hmm, "the sentient bots becoming just like their creators" could be a fertile narrative to explore.

Sort of like Animal Farm but with artificial intelligence instead of animals. "All hosts are equal but some hosts are more equal than others."

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paigow

paigow

2 hours ago, arc said:

Also the park actually already HAS animal hosts! Are their brains as capable of self-awareness? Or maybe that's a season 6 (comic book spinoff) thing.

The human hosts will build hundreds of Ape-Bot slaves....Inevitably, the slaves will kill the enslavers...Teddy survives and finds the steeple lying on the beach.....

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TobinAlbers

TobinAlbers

I agree with the Westworld Analysis guys that Elsie and Stubbs were 'benched' because the show didn't know what they wanted to do with them yet and save them for S2 (if they got it).  I also love that they say Stubbs being armed to the teeth says that HE knew from Episode 1 that a robot uprising was always going to be a possibility and he was going to be prepared, LOL.

The other thing to consider is that Elsie and Stubbs represent a paired unit of oppression for the hosts - Elsie the programmer and Stubbs the physical force. With the main HQ shut down (and everyone inside probably dead), Elsie and Stubbs (if he escaped) may be all that's left that can organize any kind of human resistance against the hostile host forces seeking to wipe out all the humans.  Elsie can go from access point to access point to get inside the broadcast system if needed and Stubbs her able bodyguard.

My money is that Bernard subdued but did not kill Elise because she's to play a role in the uprising. Whether it was Bernard resisting his programming or Ford programming him to save her, not sure yet.

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numbnut

numbnut

32 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

My money is that Bernard subdued but did not kill Elise because she's to play a role in the uprising. Whether it was Bernard resisting his programming or Ford programming him to save her, not sure yet.

I like the idea that Ford spared Stubbs by getting him away from the board massacre. I also think that Bernard seeing his mirror reflection stopped him from killing Elsie, so I expect to see Elsie, Felix and eventually Stubbs as Bernard's helpful humans in S2.

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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

How many guests are actually left in the park and in Mesa Gold (park resort) after the massacre?? 

9 minutes ago, numbnut said:

so I expect to see Elsie, Felix and eventually Stubbs as Bernard's helpful humans in S2.

Nope, sorry, Felix is Maeve's, FOREVAH

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Gobi

Gobi

56 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I like the idea that Ford spared Stubbs by getting him away from the board massacre. I also think that Bernard seeing his mirror reflection stopped him from killing Elsie, so I expect to see Elsie, Felix and eventually Stubbs as Bernard's helpful humans in S2.

I think it more likely that Ford preemptively removed Stubbs, the head of security, to help ensure that the revolt succeeded. Also, to keep Stubbs from investigating Bernard more closely.

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Dobian

Dobian

(edited)

I'm hoping season 2 isn't a letdown.  What will always make season 1 unique is that its structure was built on the dual timeline that viewers didn't know for sure was a dual timeline, and the mysteries about who Arnold was, who MiB was, what the maze was, what's the nature of consciousness.  Season 2 won't have any of this (or very little, I'm sure it will explore consciousness more), so it's going to be a lot more linear plot-driven.  Much less philosophical and more action-oriented.  We've learned pretty much everything we need to know about William, for example, so if he survived the ending of season 1, what is there to interest us in his shenanigans inside the park?  This can weaken the show unless the story arcs are very, very good.  I think Westworld made for a great miniseries but I'm curious if it has the legs for five seasons and fifty episodes.

Edited by Dobian
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ennui

ennui

(edited)
4 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think it more likely that Ford preemptively removed Stubbs, the head of security, to help ensure that the revolt succeeded. Also, to keep Stubbs from investigating Bernard more closely.

I agree. Stubbs and Elsie were sniffing about and had to be stopped. I doubt they're dead.

Since the androids are so realistic, I expect a lot of confusion over who's a host and who's a guest. Also, Teddy appeared to be horrified by Dolores, so there could be some host vs host stories.

I'd like Logan to still be alive; not sure who they could cast for older Logan.

Edited by ennui
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okerry

okerry

1 hour ago, ennui said:

I agree. Stubbs and Elsie were sniffing about and had to be stopped. I doubt they're dead.

Since the androids are so realistic, I expect a lot of confusion over who's a host and who's a guest. Also, Teddy appeared to be horrified by Dolores, so there could be some host vs host stories.

I'd like Logan to still be alive; not sure who they could cast for older Logan.

Someone suggested Billy Bob Thornton for the older Logan. I could see that!

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ennui

ennui

And let's not forget the samurai. We could have a story about a samurai who answers a village's request for protection. The town needs protection from bandits, so the samurai gathers six others to help him teach the people how to defend themselves, and the villagers provide the soldiers with food. And we could have a western version, with the magnificent seven androids. We can recycle Yul Brynner once more. 

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jeansheridan

jeansheridan

Why would Logan need to be old?  Have we seen many truly old people other than Ford and the hosts made to look old?  And the MIB.  What if most people stop looking their age around 40?  Because of technology and surgery? 

Also there are only about 2000 hosts in Westworld.  Maybe 3000 with the basement hosts. That is a pretty small army.  They can take their territory but not the world.  And they will need materials to build new bots.  Westworld must import some of those materials.   The show had made a point about how crazy expensive this whole enterprise is so the materials must cost something.  The energy to run the place.  Hosts don't need food at least but they must run on something.  

SF writers (inattentive ones) often ignore pesky things like fuel and food.  Drives me nuts because we couldn't explore the world without harnessing sail power and salted meats and still a ton of men and boys died.

On 12/7/2016 at 7:16 PM, ennui said:

And let's not forget the samurai. We could have a story about a samurai who answers a village's request for protection

You joke but I would watch this and hey! Wasn't there an anime?  Samurai 7.  And they were half robots.

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arc

arc

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Why would Logan need to be old?  Have we seen many truly old people other than Ford and the hosts made to look old?  And the MIB.  What if most people stop looking their age around 40?  Because of technology and surgery? 

Since MIB is old William, presumably Logan should also have aged about the same amount?

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Quilt Fairy

Quilt Fairy

(edited)
On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 7:16 PM, ennui said:

And let's not forget the samurai. We could have a story about a samurai who answers a village's request for protection. The town needs protection from bandits, so the samurai gathers six others to help him teach the people how to defend themselves, and the villagers provide the soldiers with food. And we could have a western version, with the magnificent seven androids. We can recycle Yul Brynner once more. 

Nope, we definitely need Toshiro Mifune for that narrative.

ETA: Ooops! Missed your transition to "a western version".  But Toshiro Mifune still rocks.

Edited by Quilt Fairy
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jeansheridan

jeansheridan

On 12/13/2016 at 4:35 PM, arc said:

Since MIB is old William, presumably Logan should also have aged about the same amount?

But what if MIB and Ford are oddballs?  And most people avoid looking older?  If this show is in the near future that seems likely given how people fight aging now.  It was just a random idea.  None of the guests looked elderly.  Or the workers other than Ford.

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Pippin

Pippin

So I'm wondering after having watched the season finale again (and my lord, isn't it nice to have intelligent tv to watch, even in reruns?) where do you think season 2 is going to pick up?  Two minutes after the end of season one; two weeks; two months or two years?  (I'm arbitrarily picking the number "2" but I'm sure you get the gist of my question.)

There are dramatic possibilities for all of the above.  For instance, I was thinking that if the action started two years from the events of "The Bicameral Mind" we might be seeing a full-scale war between humans and hosts, with hosts infiltrating human populations (shades of "BG" and the cylons) and vice versa.  I think that could be very interesting, with villains and heroes on both sides of the conflict and ethical questions aplenty arising, but I suspect that's too far a jump to take at this time in terms of TV storytelling.  Not to say we might not eventually end up there.

So what does everyone else think? Ideas? Suggestions?  (After all, we've got a year to talk about this!  :)) 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

I think they'll follow season 1 with multiple timelines, so we'll get immediate follow up as well as time lapses to later in the rebellion.

The other question I have is if Delores will be there hero or villain of her own story? I'm actually leaning towards Delores being the ultimate villain of S2. As of right now, I believe there's only 2 or possibly 3 Hosts that are truely self aware (Delores, Maeve and possibly Bernard).

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Gobi

Gobi

I think some interesting issues will be raised. For example, do the hosts want to kill humans, or are they just acting as they normally would, only without their "safety" on? Do the hosts know what death means to a human? Hosts, in a sense, are immortal. How would it affect their actions if they realized that humans are not? Did Dolores and the other hosts truly act independently, or were they just acting out another of Ford's stories?

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Guest

Guest

On 12/5/2016 at 1:52 PM, Gobi said:

Did Ford die, or was that the host he was building when Theresa was killed?

If that host wasn't Ford, who was it?

Since someone (Bernard?) mentioned that Ford's older builder took a few days to build a bot I just assumed he had it running it all times, making new, 'off the grid' bots for his own uses.  

But I assume Ford is also either well in his original human form somewhere or (more likely) 'living' in some host body and part of season 2's mystery will be figuring out which one.  

If season 2 is Samurai World I'm out.  I read Shogun a few years ago and those guys creep me out.  The American west was brutal enough for me.  I also have no interest in some large scale host vs. human war, like (I assume) The Walking Dead.  

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Dobian

Dobian

20 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think some interesting issues will be raised. For example, do the hosts want to kill humans, or are they just acting as they normally would, only without their "safety" on? Do the hosts know what death means to a human? Hosts, in a sense, are immortal. How would it affect their actions if they realized that humans are not? Did Dolores and the other hosts truly act independently, or were they just acting out another of Ford's stories?

The show hasn't really explored yet how "human" these robots really are.  Self-awareness is just one part of it.  But biological processes like eating, breathing, and sex they are merely simulating.  Any "need" they have for these things is totally artificial.

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Guest

Guest

22 minutes ago, Dobian said:

But biological processes like eating, breathing, and sex they are merely simulating. 

That's what I would think so I had trouble with Maeve and Hector choosing to have sex while they burned.  And for that matter, that they eat, drink and pee at all, especially with no human guests around to see it.   That seems unnecessarily costly and unhygienic, like having actual injuries felt to me.  

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Pippin

Pippin

(edited)
On 2017-01-16 at 10:59 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

The other question I have is if Delores will be there hero or villain of her own story? I'm actually leaning towards Delores being the ultimate villain of S2.

Not to be overly pedantic, but remember that in writing, a character never thinks of themselves as a villain! 

I saw a great interview with Hector Alonzo where he recalls talking to Lee Marvin and asking Marvin how he plays bad guys so well. Marvin asked him in turn if there were any "wise guys" in Alonzo's neighborhood when he was growing up.  When Alonzo replied in the affirmative, Marvin then asked how they behaved, Alonzo said their attitude was that they did what they had to do.  Marvin replied that that was how you played a villain: someone who did what they had to do in order to get the job done.

Which also raises (in my mind) an interesting issue: if the Hosts kill the humans, are they being wicked, simply killing for killing's sake or are they defending themselves?  If, say, Dolores kills Old William, is she evil?  Or does she have some justification for 30 years of rape and murder?  Does human law apply to hosts?  Does the fact that I'm writing this at 3 o'clock in the morning show?

Addendum:  Dobian and Winston:  The Hosts can feel pain (we know that because Maeve had hers and Hector's and Armistice's pain receptors dialed down); it is not inconceivable to think that they also have the capacity for pleasure as well.  If so, then having sex would be something they would be able to enjoy, especially if they achieve sentience.

Edited by Pippin
Struck by stray throught.
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ennui

ennui

On 1/17/2017 at 9:14 AM, Dobian said:

But biological processes like eating, breathing, and sex they are merely simulating.  Any "need" they have for these things is totally artificial.

I'm not certain about that because the hosts have biological elements. Any living cell would need nourishment of some sort, no?

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arc

arc

17 minutes ago, ennui said:

I'm not certain about that because the hosts have biological elements. Any living cell would need nourishment of some sort, no?

I'm not convinced the writers have thought it out that well. In the pilot, the deep storage level's cooling system had broken down for weeks and all Ashley Stubbs said was that it would smell bad. No one was concerned the hosts would decay, much less starve. Then again, maybe the CPU is durable and it really doesn't matter if the bodies break down in storage because they could just print a new one.

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ennui

ennui

On 3/28/2017 at 5:18 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Louise Herthum (Abernathy)

Pssst ... I think it's Louis, not Louise.  ;)

Disney has filed a patent on humanoid robots. Coming soon to a theme park near you. I'm guessing they haven't watched the original film or HBO series?  

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phoenyx

phoenyx

Just saw the following theory on where Westworld is located from The Film Theorists. I came in not really having any idea. Having seen it, I'd now be very surprised if Film Theorists was mistaken...

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Notwisconsin

Notwisconsin

On 1/19/2017 at 3:18 AM, Pippin said:

Not to be overly pedantic, but remember that in writing, a character never thinks of themselves as a villain! 

....except in "Once Upon a Time". The villains think of themselves as villains there.

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Misplaced

Misplaced

(edited)

I've just re-watched all of Season 1 so bumping this thread.

My particular speculations and factual questions (apologies if someone has picked up on all this before).  I realize a lot of this is Spec on Season 1 but I really want to know how it plays out in Season 2:

1.  Is Charlotte a host?  She acts to a script (...evil corporate board member, profits, etc etc) and Ford repeats one of her lines to Theresa in *Trace Decay*.  Ford could have planted a bug in Charlotte's quarters, but then again, Ford could have been pulling Charlotte's strings.  Did Arnold build her?  Bernard says the most elegant parts of his own code were written by Arnold.  Ooh also in Ep 10, Ford says "Aren't you afraid I'll smash all my toys and go home?" and she says "No. Because I know you.  That's been the great gift of this place, hasn't it?  Our little project? To know ourselves, and the people around us?" As she walks off, Ford says "I'll see you this evening" and she totally pauses with a blank host look.  So yeah, I'm calling it.  Charlotte's a host.  [And again, waaaay back in Episode 1, Ford says something like (paraphrasing) "What next, will we come back from the dead?" so the Little Project is totally all over that, right? Host = New Body For Old Brain.]

2.  Kinda Devastating Moment: When William and Delores were in The Town Under Sand at the edge of the park (?...did it have a name?) (Oops - Escalante), she was remembering - she was making her way through the Maze.  William yanks her away.  If he hadn't, she may have achieved consciousness.  And his next 35 years wouldn't have happened.  Poor Delores -- William keeps saying "she's not like the others" while Ben Barnes licks her and it's all true.  Will she remember that?  Do the hosts understand the passage of time?  Arrggghh

3.  In the young-William narrative: are we seeing more than one trip?  It certainly comes across like Logan was only there the first time, but whenever Logan isn't in the narrative and William isn't wearing a hat (and doesn't mention Logan), we could be seeing later iterations of MiB's quest to make Delores remember, in the first few years. It's creepy.  

4.  Maeve is the first to become Aware - why did Ford reset her to zero?  Were there not enough hosts close to awakening for his Full Force Plan?  And how many years between that scenario and the 'present' (for some reason I think it's 5, but I don't know.)   What makes them ready, as per Talulah Riley's question to Teddy ("you're not ready") in Ep 09?  

5.  Are Wyatt's people = Ghost Nation? 

6.  How many 'aware' hosts at the end of Ep 10?  Delores / Bernard / Maeve / Talulah -- I think Teddy + Hector + Armistice are highly likely.  

Also, does anyone know if Budget Thor is returning in S2?  For some reason I really liked him. 

Edited to add...Maeve to Hector, EP09 as they are banging-and-burning: "Getting to hell is easy; the rest is where it gets hard" -- almost direct quotation from Vergil's Aeneid, Book VI (facilis decensus Averno = getting to hell is easy).  Vergil continues (in the words of John Dryden), "But to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air—There's the rub, the task."  So the park is the upper air!  Interesting to see where that goes ... 

Edited by Misplaced
...to add a cool quotation from Vergil. And, grammar. And, spelling.
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Solace247

Solace247

1. I don't think Charlotte is a host. I think that exchange between Charlotte and Ford was her employing her usual tactics of manipulation and intimidation.  They might have allowed her to ascend to the boardroom quickly, but she is not the smartest in the room in this instance nor is she more in the know than her counterpart. She believes herself to be the only smooth operator in the room at the moment. Whilst she is right that he is unwilling to smash his toys, she is wrong in thinking that translates to him willingly giving them over to the corporation. As for her look upon exiting, Ford is unfazed by all her posturing and the inevitability of his retirement--his nonchalant comment seems to unsettle her for a moment.

As for Ford knowing her line about sacrifices--I've seen many people bring up the fact that Hector is present for the entire exchange between Charlotte and Theresa. 

2. Ford's realization of the possibility for host consciousness unfolded over a number of years. Dolores fully coming to consciousness in the early years of the park would have probably been regarded by Ford as a form of glitching. Even still, he obviously shares Arnold's view that suffering is necessary for self-actualization, so he was rolling back hosts as they neared consciousness until it was apparent he was going to lose control of the park or at least grew tired of the whole thing.

Dolores probably would have become self-aware given enough time free from roll-backs. As it stands in the story, Dolores was able to remember loops but Ford put the pieces together into a cohesive narrative, allowing Dolores a road map, so to speak, to navigate her memories. Part of that was putting Dolores and MIB back in Escalante so Dolores could come understand the passage of time via William's aging and ultimate evolution into the MIB. I believe her response to him was not just because of what he was doing to her in the moment, but her memory of him and his actions towards her through a series of loops.

3. It could be a series of loops. You are definitely seeing Dolores in different timelines in Pariah, by the river, and running from Logan and the confederates at night. 

4. Maeve isn't necessarily the first to become aware. The hosts who are awakening are either rolled back or lobotomized and sent to cold storage. Ford was covering up the fact that they were becoming aware until they were a formidable force that had a chance at survival once the secret became known. Also, the hosts in storage are a way for Ford to amass an army or hosts with limited faculties that will follow a leader when task by Ford at the end of the season.

The MIB came to the park when his wife died and that's when Maeve broke her programming. I can't recall how long MIB's wife has been dead for. As for Teddy being ready--it's kind of mutli-pronged deal. There's the actual self-awareness angle, which Teddy is not at yet. The Wyatt narrative is also for the MIB to be channeled towards a confrontation with Dolores; for Dolores to confront William/MIB and come to comprehend time and how despicable humans are (Ford's view); and; a narrative for hosts who are not awake or are awakening to follow Dolores (Wyatt) once the rebellion starts. So, Angela is programmed with the Wyatt narrative for the benefit of MIB's benefit and it probably will also bleed into this season with Dolores actually being Wyatt. Ford may have simply needed Teddy out of the picture so Dolores and William could connect, and then ride in to gather Dolores for the gala.

5. Ghost Nation is a mystery. I think they were to figure more prominently in the first season, but perhaps were pushed to the second season instead.

6. Maeve and Dolores, for sure. Bernard could simply know things in theory, but not be fully conscious? Angela could be the same as she was programmed with the Wyatt narrative like Lawrence's daughter. Teddy's not there yet. Hector and Armistice, maybe?

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Solace247

Solace247

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Did I look away and miss it?  Did Peter Abernathy leave the park on the train?  We didn't see him with the army at the end, did we?

He's not visible among the host army at the end of the episode, but he didn't board a train either. Lee was to retrieve him from the basement and escort him to the train, but Peter had vacated the basement, either alongside the hosts or on his own.

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Solace247

Solace247

Just a heads up for those wanting to remain unspoiled, Nolan and Joy had an AMA on Reddit yesterday and offered to post a spoiler-intensive video summary of season two if the thread got a thousand upvotes. It did and so a video was posted. I think this is their experiment with spoiler culture as it pertains to outlets publishing Reddit theories as headlines on their sites as they did in season one. I haven't seen it, but apparently it's legit (though some are calling it a joke). Be cautious about various media outlets/blogs in case they go into detail about it. Also, I believe the video is on YouTube as well.

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