S12.E07: Rock Never Dies

[pixelcat]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought he said they were 450 miles away.

Boosting up the volume a lot it sounds to me now like Dean said 150 miles?  But looking at the transcript, you are correct 450 it is.  Maybe my hearing is finally going.

ETA:

Just out of curiosity I mapped out the route between the bunker and LA, and it said it'd take about 20 hours, and that's if they used the freeways.  Despite them mentioning freeways from time to time (like Sam in "In My Time Of Dying", telling John "They dragged the car to a yard off of I-83.") we never actually see them DRIVING on the freeways.  Don't get me wrong, I love the scenery of back roads and two-lane blacktops, it just always strikes me as a little funny.

Edited December 3, 2016 by pixelcat

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well...just watched.  Not bad, but not as good as last week.  Maybe on rewatch, there will be more I liked.  But the boys sure looked pretty!  Okay, shallow moment here, but when they were all waiting at the hotel on those white couches - Yowsa! They looked good.  I'm just going to keep that image in my brain for awhile, I hope no one else minds.  I was actually impressed with Rick Springfield as Lucifer in this one - especially when he was whining about daddy abandoning him again.  I also thought it was interesting that Dean considered it a 'win' that they saved the crowd, but Sam didn't because of Vince.  I'm sure I should have much deeper thoughts than I do right now, but I still have all the pretty in my head.  So now I'm off to read off the other comments, which are probably much more thoughtful and provocative than mine.  :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not a Rick Springfield fan, so I can't say that I'm sorry to see his vessel go.  If I had to see him shirtless one more time, I was going to get upset.  

Ha!  I think I thought about that earlier in an episode, but now that you mention it...I won't miss those scenes either.  

Quote

So are we supposed to take Sam's lingering gaze at the end as a sign that he's planning to invite Lucifer back in?  I sincerely hope they don't go there again, but it won't surprise me.  He'll think that sacrificing himself is the only way to stop him.  Please let me be wrong.  I'm praying that next week's mid-season finale will be the finale for Lucifer, as well.  

On a totally shallow note, the boys looked particularly good tonight.

No, please no on the Sam as vessel thing.  Or, as others have pointed out, it wouldn't be beneficial to either party at this point.  I wouldn't be surprised if next week's ep (that's the mid-season finale ALREADY? Really?  Doesn't seem like it should be yet...) is not the end of Lucifer.  And Yes!  The boys looked SO good tonight.  :)  

22 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Where are the BMOL when you need them?  I thought they were tracking Sam and Dean and cleaning up any loose ends?  If they're so superior, why don't they take a crack at Lucifer?

Ha!  Good call!  I didn't even think about that after Sam mentioned trying to find information on them.  They'll just lay low until it's all over then bring Dean and Sam in for interrogation.

22 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Had some combination of Sam, Cas and Rowena not let Lucifer out already, Chuck would presumably have retrieved him himself. 

Not so sure about that, as I remember Chuck telling Dean and Sam NO to retrieving Lucifer from Amara.  

19 hours ago, SueB said:

Well, when Luci has a meltdown, he has a literal meltdown. *rim-shot* ... I'll show myself out.

 

Just wanted to say your entire post was *Perfect*.  

This made me think:

Quote

He's the most dangerous kind of villain, he has nothing to lose and nothing to gain.  

Exactly.  Which means he should be the most interesting kind of villain also.  So I don't know...  This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think ending him (or shoving him back in the cage) too soon might be a mistake.  I'm not saying there should be too much focus on the Lucifer story line either.  But I think maybe that it's one of those things that could be a loose end that could be easily re-visited from time to time.  

16 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Why couldn't Crowley and Cass see through the vessel and recognize Lucifer?

Ah!  That's a very good point!  Maybe when they didn't actually see him in person they couldn't see  his true form?

Quote

Also, why were they all just hanging out in that hotel lobby drinking cucumber water? 

Because they looked pretty?  (Sorry.  That was enough for me.  :)  )

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, how can a rock star,  his band mate (who I quite liked) and two other dudes die all on the same day and the rock star's body decays almost instantly, and it NOT raise the eyebrows of the adoring public not to mention law enforcement and the CDC?  Surely someone from Vince's family...like oh I dunno HIS SISTER might want to know what happened especially since Cas and Crowley were actually at her house and can be placed at the venue where Vince dies. I'm going to be really disappointed if this doesn't amount to more. I suppose it's too much to hope for something like Henriksen pursuing Dean for 3 seasons.

I mean this really isn't going smaller unless the show completely ignores that this death would be a pretty big deal to the public.

On the other hand, how many times does it happen that a former star dies tragically and, for awhile the general public mourns, until the media directs our attention to something else?

Quote

Why didn't Billie show up to reap Vince? Or Tommy? Or the other two dudes?

Couldn't Cas or Crowley tried to heal Vince's vessel?

When did Vince really die? On the stage in this episode or long before, like when Rowena sent Lucifer to the bottom of the ocean? 

What happened to Vince's soul? 

Very good questions!  About Billie - no idea.  (I was really sorry about Tommy, especially.   He had two daughters in college also.)

I'm guessing - as I think someone else also stated, that Vince's vessel was beyond saving, especially after having been at the bottom of the ocean, for however long.  As for Vince's soul - what happens to any demon's meat suit's soul?  Has the show ever really addressed that? 

1 hour ago, pixelcat said:

Boosting up the volume a lot it sounds to me now like Dean said 150 miles?  But looking at the transcript, you are correct 450 it is.  Maybe my hearing is finally going.

I thought I heard Dean say 150 miles.  But I didn't look at the transcript.  I just figured it was when they were within that range.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On the other hand, how many times does it happen that a former star dies tragically and, for awhile the general public mourns, until the media directs our attention to something else?

Quote

An entire well known band died in a public venue, and the lead singer was literally dessicated, which is why I mentioned the CDC. That shit ain't like an overdose or being shot.

Edited December 3, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

You have the agent, or whoever that guy was, bleeding out from a pen stuck in his neck, 3 bandmates all with broken necks, and a prune-like dead Vince, who only hours before was all over the media looking perfectly normal.  I agree that in the real world, this would have been pretty big deal.  I seriously doubt they'll revisit the story, but I could be wrong.  I kind of miss the storylines where the boys crossed paths with real cops/FBI agents.  I'm sure they've gotten better at covering their tracks, but still...

I haven't watched the episode again yet, so maybe my impression will improve a bit on second viewing.  I normally enjoy the episodes where all 4 main characters interact together, but this one seemed to fall a bit flat for some reason.  At least there was plenty of pretty in this episode.

It just seems to me that if Cas and Crowley had pooled their angel/demon powers and attacked Lucifer together, they'd have garnered a better result.  The writers make them look pretty hapless sometimes and that's frustrating to watch.  It's the same when Sam and Dean forget basic hunting rules.  It's lazy writing and I wish they wouldn't do it over and over again.

[rue721]

Apparently, I've finally grown to like Crowley. Who would have thought!

And I like Cas more as Crowley's partner than I've liked him in years. But Cas continues to be very hit or miss in terms of actually behaving like himself. The snarkiness is just strange coming from him. I don't really understand what the show is going for with his characterization this year.

Lucifer is ridiculous, and I am just so sick of him. When he was whining about his dad AGAIN I just couldn't. First of all, the thing of God being portrayed as a literal father irritates me because it's so facile. Second of all, Lucifer STILL cannot just accept that is dad is not that dependable? Come on, it has been millennea. I don't even need him to be OK with it, just to stop being bizarrely shocked by it.

But the worst thing about Lucifer being around is that I just don't understand how Sam could possibly feel about that.

Anyway, I found the Winchesters, Crowley, and Springfield all very likeable in this episode, so I enjoyed it OK overall. But anything having to with a Lucifer-related mytharc gets really goofy really fast. So I can't say that I thought the episode was anything much.

My favorite parts were:

• Dean playing Words with Friends with Mary
• Sam and Dean fighting over the music in the car. Especially when Sam kept trying to make his "podcast" sound more and more boring while Dean stayed relentlessly enthusiastic about listening to it.
• Sam flipping out about losing slowly at the end. I don't know if I agree with him, but it was interesting to hear his POV.

I think that something is going on with Sam, though. He seemed on edge and negative the whole episode, way more than usual IMO. I mean, he was grumpy with Dean from the very beginning of the episode, talking about how Words with Friends is out of style. IMO he also seemed kind of bitter about not being in touch with Mary himself (why doesn't he text her?). Then he was not wanting to chat with Dean in the car. He just seemed out of sorts, I guess. And then he had that rant at the end.

3 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Just out of curiosity I mapped out the route between the bunker and LA, and it said it'd take about 20 hours, and that's if they used the freeways.  Despite them mentioning freeways from time to time (like Sam in "In My Time Of Dying", telling John "They dragged the car to a yard off of I-83.") we never actually see them DRIVING on the freeways.  Don't get me wrong, I love the scenery of back roads and two-lane blacktops, it just always strikes me as a little funny.

Why do you say they don't drive on freeways? (honest question) Interstates are just two lanes in a whole lot of places IME.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Why do you say they don't drive on freeways? (honest question) Interstates are just two lanes in a whole lot of places IME.

They don't need freeways/interstates!  They can get anywhere in the country in two hours or less.  Besides, they'd have to exit in order to find those 1950's-era fast-food joints they eat at...Seriously, the only time I remember them even *thinking* about an interstate (besides I-83 mentioned above) is Dead in the Water, when they were kicked out of town and Dean stopped at the sign pointing to the interstate before turning back into town to save the day.  (Oh, and the Monster March down I-70 that Bobby mentioned in And Then There Were None, though they didn't necessarily drive it themselves...)

I think the original plan/look of the show was supposed to be like "Blue Highways," focusing on small-town America, and they never thought about it after that.  

[Commando Cody]

I think that Lucifer was burning out Vince the moment he took him over. He wasn't a stable vessel anyway. He was barely holding him together. I think Vince was toast pretty early on. 

[Dobian]

5 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Mostly the episode felt off again to me.  Maybe it was all the flashes of LA to show they're in LA?  They didn't feel the need to do that in "Hollywood Babylon"... I felt like I was watching some sitcom.  I don't remember them ever showing a city like that before just to reinforce where they are..  I had to laugh when Dean said "we're 50 miles from LA" on this little backroad nothing, lots of greenery around, AND IT'S RAINING.  50 miles from LA is either more LA or desert.  99.5% of the time the location to me doesn't really matter (snow in Louisiana?  NOT A PROBLEM MOVING ON) but this bugged me.

Haha yeah, they should have done that scene with them sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5.

I noticed on Dean's Scrabble app that he had the letters to spell Lucifer on the bottom.

[catrox14]

I'm kind of disappointed that Dean didn't reminisce about being a "Helluva PA". :(

[GirlyGeek]

Pretty dull episode and I'm so over Lucifer.  But wow did the boys look good.  Loving Sam's hair for once too

You know its not good when that's all I've got ;)

[mertensia]

I imagine a reaper did show up but we didn't see it; normally they stay unseen, after all.

Vince's body got subjected to exactly how much pressure at the bottom of the sea? Yeah, that's a reason why he wasn't saveable.

[catrox14]

Just now, mertensia said:

I imagine a reaper did show up but we didn't see it; normally they stay unseen, after all.

I was thinking of Billie specifically. She's been showing up where the Winchesters and death bisect. She was there when Sam got infected. She showed up when Dean offed himself to make a deal for Sam. She showed up in the haunted asylum and then in the bunker when they were harvesting souls, and she was at Asa Fox's wake and ends up making a deal with Dean. I fully expected her to show up here considering it was the Winchesters, Lucifer, Crowley and Cas when 5 people died. I just think it's weird she didn't show.

[pixelcat]

7 hours ago, rue721 said:

Why do you say they don't drive on freeways? (honest question) Interstates are just two lanes in a whole lot of places IME.

I'm not saying they DON'T drive on freeways, I'm saying we've never SEEN them drive on freeways.  And I'm fine with that.

I've never seen a freeway less than 4 lanes (2 each side), except where they are merging with or splitting off from another freeway.  This question did take me down the rabbit hole of looking up Interstate standards, but it's way too early to do serious investigation into that.  I did however find out that the heaviest volume of traffic on a freeway (as of 2008) is the 405 in LA.  The longest east-west is I-90 from Boston to Seattle, and the longest north-south is I-95 from Miami to the Canadian border near Houlton, Maine.  Texas has the most miles of freeway, but New York has the highest number of different freeways.  I also found out that the system was designed to connect to nearly every military base in the continental US, in case of invasion for ease of military response.

The route google maps had them take for this was US-36 to I-70 to I-15 (I-70 is also the highest elevation of the Interstate system, almost 12,000ft in Colorado).  Hopefully the Cajon Pass wasn't on fire again.

Interestingly, Lebanon sits between the I-70 and I-80 and is about 60 miles from either.

[MysteryGuest]

I just always assumed they stuck to backroads for the most part.  Less people around to watch you kill monsters.  Less cops around to nab you for speeding.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm guessing - as I think someone else also stated, that Vince's vessel was beyond saving, especially after having been at the bottom of the ocean, for however long.  As for Vince's soul - what happens to any demon's meat suit's soul?  Has the show ever really addressed that? 

Lucifer is an angel, not a demon. But, either way, the soul of the host is still inside the meatsuit until the body dies then their soul is sent to Heaven or Hell like everyone else. For instance, seems Jimmy was still with Cass until Cass was killed at the end of S4, then his soul was sent to Heaven. Meg, the girl, was still in Meg 1.0 when she was exorcised in S1, but her body was too damaged without the demon inside to heal her, so she died. 

I'd say Vince probably died when Rowena sent Lucifer to the ocean floor. I'm guessing Lucifer was just wearing a dead meatsuit at that point and Vince's soul was sent to wherever it was intended. Which has me chuckling now because of the old superstition about wearing a dead man's clothes. ;) 

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

But Cas continues to be very hit or miss in terms of actually behaving like himself. The snarkiness is just strange coming from him. I don't really understand what the show is going for with his characterization this year.

Perhaps Cass's snarkiness is a direct result of spending so much time around Crowley?

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just always assumed they stuck to backroads for the most part.  Less people around to watch you kill monsters.  Less cops around to nab you for speeding.  

Yeah, I think they try to keep off the beaten path as much as possible. It's easier to slip by unnoticed that way.

[catrox14]

I'm coming back around to my original spec that Cas' snarkiness is a residual effect of being Lucifer's meatsuit. I say that because back in 12.01, Dabb altered/introduced a change to canon by having the bearded demon retain some of the personality of the 14 year old meatsuit he possessed. It had never been a thing before. The  problem with introducing that change is that it implies that any meatsuit would be affected that way. I think it also opens up a path for Sam theoretically to have some of Lucifer still in him. I mean why introduce that idea if they aren't going to apply it to the two surviving Lucifer vessels.

And it should apply to Dean but given he was his own meatsuit it would just be his own demony personality that would come out.  BTW, a Mark of Cain bearing, First Blade wielding demon Dean should be able to beat Lucifer, no?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

An entire well known band died in a public venue, and the lead singer was literally dessicated, which is why I mentioned the CDC. That shit ain't like an overdose or being shot.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

You have the agent, or whoever that guy was, bleeding out from a pen stuck in his neck, 3 bandmates all with broken necks, and a prune-like dead Vince, who only hours before was all over the media looking perfectly normal.  I agree that in the real world, this would have been pretty big deal.  I seriously doubt they'll revisit the story, but I could be wrong.  I kind of miss the storylines where the boys crossed paths with real cops/FBI agents.  I'm sure they've gotten better at covering their tracks, but still...

I don't know, I still don't think it would be that big of a deal - as far as being troublesome for the boys at least.  Sure, the story would make the news immediately and stay in the news for a couple days then fade away.  I also don't think all the details would be released to the public - such as the desiccated body - until the police and possibly CDC completed their investigation, so as not to cause panic.  As for the rest?  The easy explanation from the police for the news is that Vince freaked out.  He got hold of some bad drugs or had a mental breakdown (you know, he was depressed for years over his wife/girlfriend's death) and stabbed the agent in the neck (the publicist saw it - I mean, what is she going to say?  He made the the agent do it through mind control and have everyone think she's crazy and ruin her career?) and then killed his band mates.  Like I said, I doubt the details of the condition of his body would be released.  Sure, it'd be sad.  And there would be a twitter storm for a day or two while all the people who remember the band's glory days mourned, and then life would go on as it usually does. 

[catrox14]

 My original comment was that this should blow back on Cas and Crowley whom can be identified by Vince's sister. Even if you leave out public interest, you can't leave her out. If the writers have any gumption they will have her come forward and ask for a formal inquiry into his death especially if they refuse to let her see his body. She can tell the authorities about two guys posing as FBI agents asking about Vince. I mean his body is X Files level of weird.

Someone would  have video of people trying to get  out of the venue. Someone probably has video of Dean firing his gun to disburse the crowd. And they will happily sell it to something like TMZ who would be all over this like a dog with a bone.

The only way I can buy this not becoming a bigger deal is if Crowley gets the people in L. A., who have arrangements with him to bury the story. And I'm gonna need that addressed with a line of dialogue.

[bethy]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm coming back around to my original spec that Cas' snarkiness is a residual effect of being Lucifer's meatsuit.

This would make sense to me, though, as you note, it's a new thing. But I would like someone in show to ask Cas what's up with the 'tude, if that's the case. 

Honestly, I found the episode kind of boring. I continue to not care about Lucifer's storyline or Crowley or even Cas, really. 

However, the boys were really so, so pretty in this episode, and no one did anything that made me ragey, so I'm going to call it a win overall.

I continue to be overcome by how nice Jared's hair looks the season. It's taken the season to a whole 'nother level for me.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm coming back around to my original spec that Cas' snarkiness is a residual effect of being Lucifer's meatsuit. I say that because back in 12.01, Dabb altered/introduced a change to canon by having the bearded demon retain some of the personality of the 14 year old meatsuit he possessed. It had never been a thing before. The  problem with introducing that change is that it implies that any meatsuit would be affected that way. I think it also opens up a path for Sam theoretically to have some of Lucifer still in him. I mean why introduce that idea if they aren't going to apply it to the two surviving Lucifer vessels.

And it should apply to Dean but given he was his own meatsuit it would just be his own demony personality that would come out.  BTW, a Mark of Cain bearing, First Blade wielding demon Dean should be able to beat Lucifer, no?

I'm not sure about that. The idea that a demon takes on some personality of the host is not new in general. It was the first idea/explanation behind vampire possession and personalities in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, especially newly turned vampires, that the show put across, but I don't think it necessarily has to also work the other way around.

We've also seen various monsters take on the personality of their "hosts" on this show - shapeshifters and leviathans being the ones I remember most - but there was no indication that the opposite happened from whatever "mindlink" that there was. In other words, we didn't see Dean having affects from that shapeshifter mind-linking with him. And even though angels are different than monsters and demons, I don't think we really saw any Castiel in Jimmy or Gadriel in Sam once the angels weren't in the host anymore.

So for me, I don't necessarily think it has to go both ways. The demon is borrowing a body, along with the thoughts, memories, etc, that are in there, and so it makes sense to me that they might be affected by those memories and experiences they are borrowing. Once the demon is gone though, the host might have the memories - as the human Meg explained, and Sam found out - but that doesn't mean the personality traits of the demon have to stay behind. We have seen at least one person who was a host be affected by the experience though. Jeffery was affected by the demon who possessed him... though I don't think it was necessary the personality of the demon that was left behind. I think it was more that the demon gave Jeffery the confidence - a nudge - to go through with ideas that Jeffrey already had, but that he might not have previously gone through with without the possession. I think the personality remained basically Jeffrey's however. That's pretty much the way he explained the experience that I saw.

It wouldn't necessarily bother me if it didn't work the same way with angels though. Maybe they are just too different from humans in terms of physiology and psychology - whereas demons used to be human - that they are not as affected by their hosts' emotions, memories, and physiological state.

However, despite all of that, (or maybe because of it), the fact that both Lucifer and Castiel are angels might change things. Now we have a host and possessor that are similar beings - both celestial beings - so the affects of that kind of possession could be argued to be different maybe and have more of a lasting affect. I could see an argument for that without changing the rest of the show canon... since we've not really had an angel/angel possession before that I recall.

[rue721]

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

Haha yeah, they should have done that scene with them sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5.

Hahaha they actually should have, that would have been kind of hilarious.

I wish that instead of having a bunch of establishing shots and people telling us onscreen that they were in LA, they just kept showing the Winchesters constantly stuck in traffic and being late to everything. Like, they rush off to Vincente's show and....sit on the 101, trying to merge onto the 405 FOREVER. Hahahaha.

Honestly, I would also have found it hilarious if they had gotten a ton of advice about which route to take everywhere and everyone was always debating it, a la SNL's Californians. A skit I loved because I found it pretty realistic ;)

4 hours ago, pixelcat said:

I'm not saying they DON'T drive on freeways, I'm saying we've never SEEN them drive on freeways.  And I'm fine with that.

I've never seen a freeway less than 4 lanes (2 each side), except where they are merging with or splitting off from another freeway.

I'm saying that I think those two-lane roads we're always seeing them drive down *are* freeways/highways. I've driven on plenty of freeways or highways like that. Off the top of my head, I've driven on freeways like that in Arizona, Kansas, Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama...lots of places, all over the country.

Like in KS, I drove off I-70 to go to Nicodemus, and it took like three different highways in order for me to get up there and then back down to I-70 again, and those were some LONELY little roads. And that's in a relatively small, populated state like KS, while on a spur between a town and a bi-coastal interstate. In pretty much open wasteland in the SW or even around the Four Corners region, where directions will be "drive down this road for forty miles, then take a right at the stopsign, then drive for twenty more miles and you'll be there," they *definitely* don't need a lot of multi-lane roads!  

Anyway, I'm on a tablet, so I don't know how to share images, but if you Google Highway 54 Kansas, you'll see the kinds of roads I mean. Two-lane blacktop cutting through lots of fields. Those highways might have four-lane stretches, especially at merges or junctions, but they have plenty of long two-lane stretches, too. 

IME, a lot of the time, instead of having four lanes on a "major" road (especially an older one), there will only be two, but each lane will also take turns having the broken yellow line on its side, so that each lane can use the incoming-traffic lane as a passing lane for a while if necessary. Usually it's not necessary IME because it'll be you and like MAYBE three other cars in sight, though! But I think the danger of having to pass in the incoming traffic's lane is why a lot of people don't like or use two-lane highways, though. So maybe two-lanes are unpopular and slowly dying out and I just haven't realize it.

I'm certain that there are freeways/highways with only two lanes, though, because I just have so many seperate memories of driving down roads like that, and I don't think that all of those memories could be wrong. But I believe that even coast-to-coast interstates might have stretches like that, too. I remember driving on two lane roads in Tennessee and Arizona my first time through those states, and on that trip, I wouldn't have left I-40. Although to be fair, maybe I'm misremembering that and it was really an empty, lonely-feeling four-lane rather than two-lane ;)

Sorry, I don't mean to argue! Just mean to have a friendly discussion. :)

But I think that the road choices might actually be more realistic than they appear. And now it's probably obvious why I liked the Californians SNL skit -- I, too, apparently love obsessing over freeways. LOL.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm coming back around to my original spec that Cas' snarkiness is a residual effect of being Lucifer's meatsuit. I say that because back in 12.01, Dabb altered/introduced a change to canon by having the bearded demon retain some of the personality of the 14 year old meatsuit he possessed. It had never been a thing before. The  problem with introducing that change is that it implies that any meatsuit would be affected that way. I think it also opens up a path for Sam theoretically to have some of Lucifer still in him. I mean why introduce that idea if they aren't going to apply it to the two surviving Lucifer vessels.

I actually like that idea.

I don't think it came out of nowhere, because they did hint at it in S7 with Sam not being able to get Lucifer out of his head, and that other guy who couldn't get the demon who had possessed him out of his head, either. It seemed more metaphorical back then, but I actually think that making the metaphor "real" is kind of a cool thing for the show to do. 

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure about that. The idea that a demon takes on some personality of the host is not new in general. It was the first idea/explanation behind vampire possession and personalities in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, especially newly turned vampires, that the show put across, but I don't think it necessarily has to also work the other way around.

We've also seen various monsters take on the personality of their "hosts" on this show - shapeshifters and leviathans being the ones I remember most - but there was no indication that the opposite happened from whatever "mindlink" that there was. In other words, we didn't see Dean having affects from that shapeshifter mind-linking with him. And even though angels are different than monsters and demons, I don't think we really saw any Castiel in Jimmy or Gadriel in Sam once the angels weren't in the host anymore.

So for me, I don't necessarily think it has to go both ways. The demon is borrowing a body, along with the thoughts, memories, etc, that are in there, and so it makes sense to me that they might be affected by those memories and experiences they are borrowing. Once the demon is gone though, the host might have the memories - as the human Meg explained, and Sam found out - but that doesn't mean the personality traits of the demon have to stay behind. We have seen at least one person who was a host be affected by the experience though. Jeffery was affected by the demon who possessed him... though I don't think it was necessary the personality of the demon that was left behind. I think it was more that the demon gave Jeffery the confidence - a nudge - to go through with ideas that Jeffrey already had, but that he might not have previously gone through with without the possession. I think the personality remained basically Jeffrey's however. That's pretty much the way he explained the experience that I saw.

It wouldn't necessarily bother me if it didn't work the same way with angels though. Maybe they are just too different from humans in terms of physiology and psychology - whereas demons used to be human - that they are not as affected by their hosts' emotions, memories, and physiological state.

However, despite all of that, (or maybe because of it), the fact that both Lucifer and Castiel are angels might change things. Now we have a host and possessor that are similar beings - both celestial beings - so the affects of that kind of possession could be argued to be different maybe and have more of a lasting affect. I could see an argument for that without changing the rest of the show canon... since we've not really had an angel/angel possession before that I recall.

It doesn't matter to me what other shows have done in their lore. I care what this show is doing in it's own lore.

Never before this season in SPN, has there ever been any indication that a demon was altered by the meatsuit or vice versa. Why would the demon be influenced by the meatsuit but not the other way around?

Dean wasn't possessed by the shapeshifter. The shapeshifter downloaded Dean's memories and DNA. He didn't take over Dean's body.  Jeffrey loved his demon so he wanted to be like him IIRC. Meg didn't change Sam permanently back in s2. Nor did Sam change Meg.

It's a significant change to the relationship between possessor & meatsuit be it demon or angel, IMO. Why did Lucifer heal Vince's sister? That is not something Lucifer was likely to do.

 

19 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I wish that instead of having a bunch of establishing shots and people telling us onscreen that they were in LA, they just kept showing the Winchesters constantly stuck in traffic and being late to everything. Like, they rush off to Vincente's show and....sit on the 101, trying to merge onto the 405 FOREVER. Hahahaha.

Seriously. HUGE missed opportunity there.

 

ETA: It seems to me if a demon is influenced in any way by the meatsuit, then theoretically depending on how much of an influence a meatsuit has over the possessor, couldn't they just take over the demon eventually? I mean it kind of takes away the power of the demon over the meatsuit. It's a very strange thing to introduce now if it's not going somewhere with the boys, Cas or Crowley.

Edited December 3, 2016 by catrox14

[pixelcat]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I'm saying that I think those two-lane roads we're always seeing them drive down *are* freeways/highways. I've driven on plenty of freeways or highways like that. Off the top of my head, I've driven on freeways like that in Arizona, Kansas, Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama...lots of places, all over the country.

Ah, I think we have our terms crossed.  To me, freeway = Interstate, like I-70, I-5, etc (at least 4 lane, no stops), like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

Everything else to me is a highway, like Route 66 (which can be 2 lane or more, stops in towns).  In my neck of the woods, Route 1 is a highway, but I-95 is a freeway (aka Interstate).  Of course, everyone else here seems to call everything a highway...

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Never before this season in SPN, has there ever been any indication that a demon was altered by the meatsuit or vice versa. Why would the demon be influenced by the meatsuit but not the other way around?

Shouldn't Crowley have an accent similar to Rowena's then?  I always assumed his accent was the original meatsuit's accent.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm coming back around to my original spec that Cas' snarkiness is a residual effect of being Lucifer's meatsuit. I say that because back in 12.01, Dabb altered/introduced a change to canon by having the bearded demon retain some of the personality of the 14 year old meatsuit he possessed. It had never been a thing before. The  problem with introducing that change is that it implies that any meatsuit would be affected that way.

This line from Cas in season 6 (from "Family Matters") always struck me as sarcastic:

Quote

Dean: You better tear the attic up, find something to help Sam.

Castiel: Of course. Your problems always come first. I'll be in touch.

But with the way the line is delivered, it could go either way.   When Cas ran into Famine, he picked up Jimmy's hunger for burgers, which implies to me it was there all along.  Since Cas didn't need to eat, he was able to ignore it until Famine dialed it up to 11.

This season I will agree with you though, he has not been acting like himself.

[pixelcat]

7 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Ah, I think we have our terms crossed.  To me, freeway = Interstate, like I-70, I-5, etc (at least 4 lane, no stops), like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

Everything else to me is a highway, like Route 66 (which can be 2 lane or more, stops in towns).  In my neck of the woods, Route 1 is a highway, but I-95 is a freeway (aka Interstate).  Of course, everyone else here seems to call everything a highway...

Also to quote myself, this is going a bit off topic.  There was a fascinating project done by a PhD at NC State that used a dialect survey to determine where people were from.  Unfortunately, only the main page remains, all the results are gone except this image:

I only bring it up because one of the questions was something like "What do you call a 4-lane divided highway with a high speed limit and no stoplights?"  The map for that one showed the closer you said you lived to southern California, the more likely you were to call it a freeway.  The rest of the country referred to it as a highway or interstate.

Main page here:

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jakatz2/project-dialect.html

Edited December 3, 2016 by pixelcat

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

This season I will agree with you though, he has not been acting like himself.

This season Cas is sardonic which he's never been before. Lucifer is nothing but sardonic IMO. 

As to the s6 line, I thought Cas was being both truthful and resentful, not necessarily sarcastic. 

Cas craving burgers never made much sense to me because I thought Cas was rebuilt in his own meatsuit after s4 and Jimmy's soul was in Heaven. But I suppose the desire for a hamburger came from Jimmy's DNA vs a psychological influence.

Edited December 3, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Just did a re-watch, sans commercials, and this one's still a pretty mediocre episode, IMO.  There were some fun scenes, some nice eye-candy, but entirely too much Lucifer for my taste.  Since this episode was all Lucifer and next episode appears to be more of the same, I really am hoping that's the end of him.  He's boring, regardless of his choice of meat suit.

I would consider the roads the boys take to be highways.  They're not dirt roads.  They just don't take toll roads, expressways, thruways, roads like that.  I can relate because I will always choose any route other than an expressway for any long-distance driving.  They might get you from point A to point B a bit faster, but they are mind-numbingly boring and you get absolutely no feel for the area you're in.  You could be in any state in the country and they all look the same from an expressway.

[pixelcat]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Cas craving burgers never made much sense to me because I thought Cas was rebuilt in his own meatsuit after s4 and Jimmy's soul was in Heaven. But I suppose the desire for a hamburger came from Jimmy's DNA vs a psychological influence.

I thought he wasn't completely rebuilt until the end of Season 5?  After Lucifer atomized him is when I thought Jimmy's soul went to Heaven.

[pixelcat]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just did a re-watch, sans commercials, and this one's still a pretty mediocre episode, IMO.  There were some fun scenes, some nice eye-candy, but entirely too much Lucifer for my taste.  Since this episode was all Lucifer and next episode appears to be more of the same, I really am hoping that's the end of him.  He's boring, regardless of his choice of meat suit.

To get back to the episode, I agree with all of this.  I'm just worried that even though TPTB said there was no Big Bad, Lucifer is going to turn into the Big Bad and the storyline will continue throughout the season just so they can end up with Mary/Dean/Sam all having to make some sort of choice where Lucifer is concerned (which probably would involve Billie since Dean still owes her).  I do have a question though, specific to Lucifer's plan in the nightclub.  What exactly did he have in mind for all of the fans?  Force them all to mutilate themselves?  Kill themselves?  If he really wants to spread true misery and destruction, all he'd need to do is set off a few earthquakes in populated areas, collapse a few buildings, change the weather patterns or get demons to do it for him.  For that matter, whatever happened to the Croatoan virus?  Maybe there's a stockpile somewhere he could get his hands on.

Overall I'm liking the season, but I wish there were more small moments between Mary and Dean/Sam.  For example, I wanted Mary to comment on how tall Sam is.  Or hear what she said when she first saw the Impala's weaponized trunk.  Or when Castiel healed them.  I'd prefer ANY of that over the Lucifer storyline.

I'd also be a lot more interested in BMoL than Lucifer.  It would've been an interesting take, for this episode, if they'd done it (or part of it) from Mr. Ketch's POV following them around and having him report back to "the boss".  I'd really like to know how much they really know about all the crap that's been going down (do they even realize Lucifer is out of the cage?) 

[MysteryGuest]

15 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Overall I'm liking the season, but I wish there were more small moments between Mary and Dean/Sam.  For example, I wanted Mary to comment on how tall Sam is.  Or hear what she said when she first saw the Impala's weaponized trunk.  Or when Castiel healed them.

1,000 times this!  I was hoping we'd get to witness Mary's discovery of just who her adult sons are, and what their lives have been like.  John Winchester may have set them both on this path, but their lives are so much bigger than him now.  Does she know they've literally worked with God to save the world?  I would think that information like that would give her a much different perspective on her life and their lives.  It might also freak her the hell out, but at least we'd see some evidence that they've been sharing things with her other than word games.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Everything else to me is a highway, like Route 66 (which can be 2 lane or more, stops in towns).  In my neck of the woods, Route 1 is a highway, but I-95 is a freeway (aka Interstate).  Of course, everyone else here seems to call everything a highway...

Yeah, that's my understanding too. Freeways are non-stop roads with exits and entrances and mostly a consistent high speed limit. Highways can appear like freeways in some rural areas, but they have intersections and stop signs/lights and the speed limit changes frequently since sometimes highways are the main streets through some small towns.

My impression has always been the boys stick more to out-of-the-way highways and as much as possible, but that's not to say they've never used a freeway either. Sometimes that would be the best option, especially through a big chunk of the Midwest. I think it's mostly when they get close to populated areas they would get off the freeway and try to bypass all the other traffic and people.

1 minute ago, pixelcat said:

Overall I'm liking the season, but I wish there were more small moments between Mary and Dean/Sam.  For example, I wanted Mary to comment on how tall Sam is.  Or hear what she said when she first saw the Impala's weaponized trunk.  Or when Castiel healed them.  I'd prefer ANY of that over the Lucifer storyline.

I liked the beginning of the season quite a bit, but it's starting to unravel for me a bit as they go along. I too wish they'd stuck to the promise of a return a more grounded show. I'm really disappointed they sent Mary off on her own so soon. I'm not surprised given the format of the show and all that, but I had hoped they might break out of their mold somewhat this season.

However, I'm still holding out hope the back half (or back two-thirds this season) will gel a bit more. Right now, the show feels really disjointed and I'm trying to give them some time to sort it all out, but patience isn't always my strong suit. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Never before this season in SPN, has there ever been any indication that a demon was altered by the meatsuit or vice versa. Why would the demon be influenced by the meatsuit but not the other way around?

I'm not sure the demon was actually altered by his meatsuit, but since he had possessed a teenage girl, he picked up some of that teenage girl's vernacular. I don't think it's anything new on the show, myself. Demons have always been able to tap into the minds of the people they possess.

IMO, Cass is probably more snarky simply because he's been hanging around Crowley and picked up on some of Crowley's snarkiness. That can happen when you spend 24/7 with someone for a few weeks on end. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Never before this season in SPN, has there ever been any indication that a demon was altered by the meatsuit or vice versa. Why would the demon be influenced by the meatsuit but not the other way around?

Dean wasn't possessed by the shapeshifter. The shapeshifter downloaded Dean's memories and DNA. He didn't take over Dean's body.  Jeffrey loved his demon so he wanted to be like him IIRC. Meg didn't change Sam permanently back in s2. Nor did Sam change Meg.

It's a significant change to the relationship between possessor & meatsuit be it demon or angel, IMO. Why did Lucifer heal Vince's sister? That is not something Lucifer was likely to do.

For me, the question is more why wouldn't a demon be influenced by the meatsuit? If a shapeshifter can be affected by downloading memories and DNA, why wouldn't a demon who is actually living inside the body with the memories and DNA, plus hormones, body chemistry, human urges and also was in addition formerly a human themselves not also be influenced?

As for the other way around, the host is influenced by the demon, because the demon takes over what the host does. But the demon doesn't have a physical body of its own to leave lasting hormonal, chemical, DNA, etc. impressions once they leave. There are the memories, and those can definitely influence the host’s mood - see Jeffrey - but that’s it. Since a demon is basically a twisted soul whose personality is based off of the memories the soul has, to me, it makes more sense that the demon would be more affected by the host than the other way around, because they are taking the experiences of the host along with them in his/her soul imprint or whatever with no influences of their own body, DNA, etc. to temper that.

But that’s just my opinion on that one.

As for it not being seen before,  maybe it wasn’t stated so succinctly before – but when do we usually get the feelings of stunt demons? – but it could have been implied. Were the hunter demons from season 6 really that good at hunting or organization already, or did they possess hunters and then take over some of that personality to become efficient hunters and organizers? And maybe even enjoy that job? That one head demon seemed to like it anyway.

I also agree with what @DittyDotDot said above about demons and hosts, though. It could just be the vernacular the demon picked up as the he mused on the weird experience of possessing the teenaged girl.

But with reference to Castiel specifically, I still think the fact that both Castiel and Lucifer are angels could have made that possession maybe more affecting than most if that's the way the show wants to go. I personally wouldn't blink at that, because it makes sense to me with them both basically being multi-dimensional wavelengths of celestial intent. (Did I remember that right?)

As for the question of why would Lucifer heal Vincent’s sister*, for me that has generally been in Lucifer’s personality. That same trait that makes him a whiner when it comes to his daddy issues is why he wants – maybe even needs – his host to like him at least a little bit. He gets pissed off and offended when they don’t. It’s why Lucifer offered originally not to hurt and maybe even protect Dean back in the season 5 finale, because he wanted Sam to be “happy.” It’s why he offered Sam the revenge on the demons, which Lucifer somehow thought Sam would like (and then did anyway when Sam wasn’t really all that enthused.) Of course, if Lucifer healed Vincent’s sister after Vincent was dead, I can only assume lingering feelings he had from Vincent’s memories, and the reasoning is much less sensical and instead more lame.

*I am assuming that was before Lucifer was sent to the bottom of the ocean when Vincent would have died. But I haven’t rewatched most of these recent episodes, so I hope that I’m not remembering that incorrectly.

[bearcatfan]

The freeway/highway/interstate discussion reminds me of the pop/soda discussion on TWD boards last year.

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the question of why would Lucifer heal Vincent’s sister*, for me that has generally been in Lucifer’s personality.

I agree for the reasons you stated.

I actually enjoyed the episode. I also haven't rewatched it yet but that's probably because I usually rewatch immediately after the episode airs and this week I watched the 2nd half of the Cincinnati/Iowa State basketball game.

[GirlyGeek]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why did Lucifer heal Vince's sister? That is not something Lucifer was likely to do.

I always assumed that was a condition of Vince saying "YES" to possession by Lucifer.  Wasn't that even alluded to in the episode?

Edited December 4, 2016 by GirlyGeek

[catrox14]

Just now, GirlyGeek said:

I always assumed that was a condition of Vince saying "YES" to possession by Lucifer.  Wasn't that even alluded to in the episode?

 

Not that I can remember.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, GirlyGeek said:

I always assumed that was a condition of Vince saying "YES" to possession by Lucifer.  Wasn't that even alluded to in the episode?

Well, it wasn't in the episode proper, but it was in the following episode's previouslies. It wasn't necessarily a condition, but Lucifer said he could heal Vince's sister if Vince would say "yes." I'm assuming Lucifer held up his end of the bargain simply to keep Vince from being a nuisance while he possessed him. 

[pixelcat]

11 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

The freeway/highway/interstate discussion reminds me of the pop/soda discussion on TWD boards last year.

Hah, that actually is one more graphic from that poster that I missed.  Was this about the episode with Denise and the cooler, where Daryl says soda?

Of course the data is only as good as the people replying to the survey, but Georgia looks like it could go either soda or coke, depending on where in the state you live.

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the question of why would Lucifer heal Vincent’s sister*, for me that has generally been in Lucifer’s personality. That same trait that makes him a whiner when it comes to his daddy issues is why he wants – maybe even needs – his host to like him at least a little bit.

Aha, now THIS makes sense to me!  He did the same with Sam, both with rounding up all the demons that'd been watching him over the years, and letting Dean live.  Now I kind of wish we had a short scene with Lucifer talking to Vince in the mirror about healing his sister, and to shut up sit back and enjoy the ride!

Also thinking more about Castiel, maybe he's just angry that God left AGAIN and he's handling it much worse than before.  Lucifer being out of the cage is IMO entirely on him, since he is the one who said yes.  And I know he did it out of desperation, since God wasn't around, who else was even close to Amara in power?  Then God finally does show up and everything is all better and Lucifer!Cas was pretty irrelevant in the end.  I'm still angry that Cas never got ANY sort of discussion with Chuck; this is the angel that spent season 5 searching for him only to be told "he knows but doesn't care", then season 6 trying to stop poxyclipse round 2 and begging God to show him a better way than the only one he could see.  Maybe all of this + remembering how Lucifer felt about God (and working with Crowley) has just thrown him over the edge.

14 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, Cass is probably more snarky simply because he's been hanging around Crowley and picked up on some of Crowley's snarkiness. That can happen when you spend 24/7 with someone for a few weeks on end. 

Or that could be it too.  Or a combination.  It was really just the one episode where he seemed very OOC to me, the rest of the time he has seemed pretty much normal Cas.

[DeeDee79]

On 12/1/2016 at 10:28 PM, SueB said:

Well, when Luci has a meltdown, he has a literal meltdown. *rim-shot* ... I'll show myself out.

*snicker* This ep was a big snooze me. I'm so tired of the Lucifer story line even though Rick Springfield did a pretty good job in the role. I found a lot of this ep to be pretty boring even with the the combo of Dean/Sam and Cas/Crowley all in the mix. I didn't care about Luci's angst from Chuck's departure and I didn't care about the people that we met that were in Vince's circle or their deaths ( but Dwayne Wayne! ) . I'm ready for the show to return to the MOTW format because we've already been through Lucifer as the big bad storyline and as someone said upthread this is a tired retread.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Or that could be it too.  Or a combination.  It was really just the one episode where he seemed very OOC to me, the rest of the time he has seemed pretty much normal Cas.

I thought he was OOC when he mocked Crowley in 12.01 about Rowena. It was a sneering, mocking, Castiel that seemed so much like Lucifer that it just stuck with me. And IMO it came back out here towards Dean.

[bearcatfan]

10 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Hah, that actually is one more graphic from that poster that I missed.  Was this about the episode with Denise and the cooler, where Daryl says soda?

It was the episode where Denise gives Darryl a list of things that she wants and pop is on the list. He doesn't know what that is so she tells him with the explanation of "I'm from Ohio." IIRC, she wanted the orange pop as a gift for Tara. I think that was the episode where Darryl and Rick meet Jesus.

 

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm so tired of the Lucifer story line even though Rick Springfield did a pretty good job in the role.

I can take or leave Lucifer myself but did think that Rick Springfield did a good job.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

The freeway/highway/interstate discussion reminds me of the pop/soda discussion on TWD boards last year.

OT, but it reminded me of a joke I heard a few years ago in Cairo about freeways in Egypt.  See, there were 4 designed lanes each way, but cars didn't stay in their lanes anyway, so during rush hour, it would be easily be six cars across.  And then randomly, there'd be a car driving the against traffic on what we would consider the 'wrong' side of the concrete divider.  Scared the begeezus out of me, but didn't even faze our Egyptian driver.  He told us that when the road system was implemented in Egypt and they were called Freeways, the Egyptians took that very literally, and just figured that they were Free to drive any Way they wanted!

So, did a rewatch - and made a concerted effort not to get distracted by all the pretty this time.  (Whoo Boy!  It wasn't easy!)  Overall, I think it was a little plot-light.  For example, I'm still not sure what Lucifer's end game was with the private concert: to make his fans bleed for him?  (draw blood) or outright kill them or get them to kill themselves for him?  And what was it he was going to gain?  "Because it's fun" seems pretty thin.  I could buy it if there was also a power boost involved, but that didn't seem to be the case.  Also really noticed all the time spent on location 'establishing' shots.  That was just filler and mostly unnecessary.  

• Noticed that the satanists were in the one guy's mother's basement.  Heh heh.  
• Lucifer regenerated from a fossilized feather.  Has any other angel done this: powered back up from a loose feather from their wings?  That bit was just odd to me.  But I don't remember what the lore surrounding angel feathers is - other than I think they are needed for the spell to time travel.  
• I liked the scene in the car about hair rock versus hard rock.  Mostly I just liked getting a touch information about Sam's musical preferences for once.  I thought Sam's Protestant Reformation podcast excuse was really good.  He didn't fool Dean at all, though did he?  
• Dean's face when Sam first got a glass of the cucumber water was priceless.
• The actress who play Rosaline (?) did really well.  
• I think some of Cas' attitude this ep was just because he was sick and tired of being with Crowley.  He even said as much at one point to Sam and Dean.  Still, I thought Cas' pitiful long suffering reactions were kind of funny.  
• I think Dean was a bit confounded that the publicist basically threatened to accuse them of harassment in the coffee shop/smoothie bar.  And I think his reaction was sweet because Dean would not do that, so he just couldn't understand how/why someone would ever say that about him.
• Tommy was pretty stupid for not walking away when the publicist did.  And even dumber for not running as fast as possible when Castiel and Crowley showed up in the dressing room.  I hope he at least had a decent life insurance policy for his two daughters in college.
• First time I watched, for some reason, I thought Lucifer was pulling Sam back towards him when he saw him leaving with the crowd.  I didn't realize Lucifer was closing the doors and Sam was holding them open.  (I blame it on the pretty.  I really do.  I was distracted.  What can I say?)  That was incredible though.  You go, Sam.  Nice visuals of people ducking under his arms to get out.  But just how did Dean get a gun in the club through security?  And I did like Castiel's 'Hey, Assbutt' call back.  Too bad he didn't have a holy oil Molotov cocktail this time.  And why didn't he?  I mean, if Dean could get his gun in the club...  And you know the boys have a jug of holy oil in the trunk.  Also, why did Cass sneak attack hit Lucifer with a guitar instead of the angel blade he obviously had up his sleeve?  Lucifer was distracted.  Cass could have easily stabbed him then, I think.  
• Could Lucifer end them with a snap of his fingers like he said?  Or do they still have the Chuck protection service contract?
• Sam's flip flop at the end was odd and bothers me.  Before they went into the club, Sam specifically said that they were there not just to stop Lucifier (because I don't think he thought they could - and rightfully so) but to save the crowd.  They saved the crowd.  Dean called it a win.  I agree with Dean.  But now Sam changes his mind and is all 'we are just losing slow?'  News flash, Sam: you've always been losing slow.  That's Life.  No one gets out alive.  [Sigh].  I supposed the show had to add some angst/drama in somehow to try to make the audience invested in the Lucifer story line.  I think they could have done it in a better way though.   Even just a slight change to the dialogue would have been better: if Sam had agreed with Dean and then said 'this time, but we still have work to do' or something to that effect, rather than making it seem like the brothers were going to be at odds again.  
• I agree with others who think something is off with Sam's look at the end.  I hope that it's nothing though.  I don't want it to be something.    

[Ninamags]

See?? See??

 

Even Jensen and Jared were both waiting for Rick Springfield to burst into song!!

 

Or so he said at this weekends convention. ??

[SueB]

@RulerofallIsurvey , Luci said he could end them in an instant but he wanted them to watch him break all of Daddy's toys.  

I think Lucifer is just lashing out in anyway that he can. And he's channeling "petty".  Clearly he's not 100% or he wouldn't need an Angel feather to help him.

I'm sticking with the notion that while he can kill instantly on the relatively small scale, a planet-wide enema is currently off the table.  When Aunti Amara blew him out of Castiel (.... rethinks sentence.... oh well....), I think he lost some juice.  And the lack of a proper vessel is an issue.

[SueB]

So I also FINALLY got a rewatch in. Thank @RulerofallIsurvey for motiviating me with some great comments.

As I suspected, there was a lot for me in the details.  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but I liked it.  I think I'll go character & concepts this time.

Concepts:
- Blood sacrifice.  If Lucifer had been a pagan, I'd say he's getting power off of the sacrifices.  But the fun part?  I think being part of "Chuck's" rules, he's not allowed to get power off of that.  So he gets an emotional high but he's not actually powering up.  Even if he killed all those people in the club, he'd have post homicidal depression (tm Riddler in Batman).  He does get an emotional buzz but it's not the same.
- Distraction addicts.  Bobo Berens isn't the first to coin the term.  There's a book and more than one article (http://nyti.ms/1NzVWlE ) but I really like that he brought that into the discussion. What WOULD an ancient power make of our culture today?  Well he'd see that we glorify celebrities more than God/gods and have the attention span of a gnat.  What fueled his previous schemes was taking away God's toys.  But now Lucifer realizes the toys are broken.  Which is a pretty heavy topic to bring up.  This is NOT something Supernatural is going to fix.  So... I NEED to hear Dean or Sam give a speech about why people are worthwhile.  They have it in them. Bobo (intentionally IMO), laid a pretty big turd in the punch bowl.  He's had Lucifer condemn us as a species.  That's more damaging (to some extent) than just throwing around his power. I need the boys to prove Luci wrong.  I don't know if I'm going to get it but I want it.

Characters
- Lucifer: Prince of Darkness,is in pretty bad shape. Fighting the four of them sapped his power enough that he vacated.  I think it was the Enocian handcuffs that really did him in.  And he can't get powered up in enough in Vince's meat suit. He was already decaying pre-concert.  I'm going to hazard a guess that a decaying meatsuit affects his tie to the earthly plane and his ability to impart damage.  I wonder if all the Archangel suits are gone?  Did the Angels kill off people back in S5 to force their "vision" of the Apocalypse?  Is an archangel suit really transferable anyway?  IDK.  I just think Lucifer is like a wounded animal, he's dangerous and going to cause as much damage as he can.  "To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee." Melville had Ahab say it first, before Khan did.  But, I'm definitely feeling a Luci/Ahab and Chuck/White Whale vibe here.  
- Buzz lady - oh boy did I despise her.  Did she call the police? No. She ran.  Those deaths are on her.
- Crowley: he really took one for the team (and Dean noticed... be still Crowley's little heart).  Cas can't heal him (just t like he couldn't heal Meg).  So Crowley will have to expend his own juice (what he has to clean up).  He really does seem to be in his element in LA.  But he wants to be LOVED. Still.  He chats Cas up to the point of driving him nutty.  He's also respecting Rowena's boundaries.  Maybe because she's too powerful or maybe not.  He just won't tangle with her (I think).
- Cas: My poor sweet Cas.  The awkward smile at Crowley as he is talking on the phone.  Even though he HATES Crowley, somehow Cas is unable to ignore him.  And then watching the two of them watch Sam and Dean go interrogate the witness while they are left behind.  Well, we know who has the power in the relationships and it's the boys.  Cas thinks they are the embodiment of all that is good.  Crowley loves to hang with them.  Let's face it, Cas & Crowley just cannot quit the Winchesters.  
- Sam: I agree with @rue721 who (along with @catrox14) thinks Sam is "off".  I think he's more bothered by Mary running around and Lucifer on the loose than he's been letting on.  I don't know if it's going to lead to something stupid (I think he's beyond that) but I loved his comment about losing slowly.  It's the right note of despair for the situation. 
- Dean: He got a lot of comic relief this episode.  The cucumber water, shooting a gun to get people to run (SUCH a Dean move), and peeking at the empty pizza box. All classic Dean.  The only 'serious' thing he did was try to figure out Lucifer's motivation.  And he found out Luci is pretty much unhinged and just making pain.

Standout details:
- Words with friends with Mary & the screennames
- Sam talking about a multi-part podcast on Martin Luther's 95 theses.  So Sam.  And it looked like Dean suspected it was a diversion.  I wonder how many times Sam has pulled that move (see the French Film with subtitles lie from S10).
- Cucumber water. It IS a good thing.
- Kadeem Hardison as the yogi-music producer.  Clever conceit to create that "arrangement" with Crowley.  
- I need to send a fruit basket to Wardrobe & Bobo Berens for the rock outfits on the boys. That's a Robbie Thompson move (who acknowledged that his primary motivation for Time After Time was to get Jensen dressed up.... I approve of that motivation).
- There were TONS of inside jokes (1AD's Kevin Park's gorgeous white dog, having Jensen pretty much ad lib the entire LA rant, the pink panties...)

So... I liked this episode from an overall character perspective for S12.  Cas is frustrated, Crowley is needy, Sam is stewing, and Dean is in denial).  Must be Supernatural.  Oh, and Lucifer has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime in terms of insanity.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by SueB
Premature posting. Usually not a problem for me.

[mertensia]

Lucifer's always hated humanity. Why's that anything new?

[DittyDotDot]

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Lucifer regenerated from a fossilized feather.  Has any other angel done this: powered back up from a loose feather from their wings?  That bit was just odd to me.  But I don't remember what the lore surrounding angel feathers is - other than I think they are needed for the spell to time travel.  

An angel feather was needed to do the "blood finds blood" spell Henry used to find Sam and Dean back in S8--and apparently Dean was just carrying some of them around in his trunk--but I'm not sure I buy they're an actual power source. I guess they could be, though, since their wings (or feathers) are what allows them to fly (or teleport and time travel). I dunno, the whole idea of physical feathers is still pretty stupid, IMO. 

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I liked the scene in the car about hair rock versus hard rock.  Mostly I just liked getting a touch information about Sam's musical preferences for once.  I thought Sam's Protestant Reformation podcast excuse was really good.  He didn't fool Dean at all, though did he?  

Sam is a terrible liar! He goes too far and gives too much specificity that it always comes off as he's protesting a little too much. It is funny to me that he keeps trying though! ;)

10 hours ago, SueB said:

What fueled his previous schemes was taking away God's toys.  But now Lucifer realizes the toys are broken.  Which is a pretty heavy topic to bring up.  

Lucifer has always had the opinion humanity is broken and flawed. That's nothing new, IMO. Pretty much his battle cry in S5, if you ask me. The entire reason he made demons out of humans was to show God his toys were broken. 

10 hours ago, SueB said:

What WOULD an ancient power make of our culture today?  Well he'd see that we glorify celebrities more than God/gods and have the attention span of a gnat. 

Again, not new to the show, S5 is chalked full of these sort of discussions and pretty much any pagan god on the show has monologued about this. I find it interesting now only mostly due to my recent reading of American Gods.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

Blood sacrifice.  If Lucifer had been a pagan, I'd say he's getting power off of the sacrifices.  But the fun part?  I think being part of "Chuck's" rules, he's not allowed to get power off of that.  So he gets an emotional high but he's not actually powering up.  Even if he killed all those people in the club, he'd have post homicidal depression (tm Riddler in Batman).  He does get an emotional buzz but it's not the same.

I really thought they would go the route of Lucifer using the blood sacrifices to power up, but it is interesting he was just getting off on messing with people more than anything. I actually don't think he was all that interested in the adoration myself. I think he just was enjoying showing how messed up humanity was. It's almost like he was still trying to prove his point he tried to prove to God back in the day. Wonder if God is even paying attention right now?

Edited December 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

I should have been more clear.  It's less that he always despised humanity, it's that he used to be envious of them and how they got Dad's attention.  Now it's like someone who feels disillusionment.  It's like he's realize his entire purpose (hating God for loving humans more) was a colossal waste of time. Lucifer commented that he abandoned humans as well. And now that humans aren't worth his jealousy, God has apologized for abandoning him, there's no 'happy reunion', Lucifer has no purpose. He's got all this hate and no point.  So he'll just smash shit for a while.   And I think the slightest sense of an available antagonist is TFW.  They were there for the team up against Amara.  He knows God has a fondness for them.  It's almost as if killing them would make things WORSE.  So, he's acting up (like the infant he is), to piss off TFW. Because he knows that God isn't coming back.  He (Lucifer) is not WORTH God coming back.  Lucifer has been relegated to a threat that TFW can handle.  And boy is that pissing him off.  And yet if he kills TFW, he takes the only semi-worthy** opponents off the field.  

**It's not that he thinks he can't kill them, he KNOWS he can kill them in an instant.  But they can still inflict SOME damage.  That's what makes them worthy.

[ahrtee]

Just for the heck of it:

In Rock Never Dies:

Lucifer: You know rock's not the reason. It's just an excuse. To worship. To adore. See, humans have always been desperate to put someone or something above them and let’s face it, God ain't cutting it these days. It takes a Kim Kardashian, whatever Justin Bieber is, and me. They're enjoying a ride. So should you.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=12.07_Rock_Never_Dies

 

In Fallen Idols:

DEAN
You know, I gotta tell you, you are not the first god we've met, but you are...the nuttiest.

LESHI
No, you, you people, you're the crazy ones. You used to worship gods. But this? (The LESHI indicates her Paris Hilton disguise.)  This is what passes for idolatry? Celebrities? What have they got besides small dogs and spray tans?   You people used to have old-time religion. Now you have Us Weekly.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=5.05_Fallen_Idols_(transcript)

[SueB]

And Luci is just catching on.

[ahrtee]

And the writers *still* haven't caught on that we've heard it already.  Many times.