S01.E09: The Well-Tempered Clavier

[jeansheridan]

But she would recognize Bernard/Arnold.  No way she doesn't have a photo of her dad.  Unless she is Arnold's grand daughter.  

I think Charlotte is just bad casting in terms of her age.  The actress is early 30s when forties or fifties would have served.  Maybe they wanted the snottiness of youth.  Or the confidence.  She is as confident as Ford in her own way.  Teresa 's death barely touched her.  Charlotte may be a different kind of monster.

Edited November 30, 2016 by jeansheridan

[huahaha]

30 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I think Charlotte is just bad casting in terms of her age.  The actress is early 30s when forties or fifties would have served.  Maybe they wanted the snottiness of youth.  Or the confidence.  She is as confident as Ford in her own way.  Teresa 's death barely touched her.  Charlotte may be a different kind of monster.

On a different show, Charlotte would turn out to be a bot. Funny how her lack of nuance and characterization makes me think she's supposed to just be human.

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Pippin said:

When Ford was talking about how the human race would basically destroy the hosts because humans are such SOBs (very true; there were several species of hominids and homo sapiens sapiens was the only one to survive, essentially because we were meaner and nastier than the others)

This is not actually true. Recent genetic evidence shows that every modern human outside of those who never left Africa has about 1-2% Neanderthal DNA.

The most likely conclusion is that we made love, not war, with the Neanderthals and they disappeared mainly because their much smaller population was absorbed into the much larger human population (i.e. they hybridized themselves with humans to the point they were no longer a distinct species).

Its similarly been stated that the primary difference between Hosts and humans as of the 'present day' storyline is mostly in the "software" and not so much in the "hardware."

Maybe William was just ahead of his time in the human/Host love movement.

[phoenyx]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

But she would recognize Bernard/Arnold.  No way she doesn't have a photo of her dad.  Unless she is Arnold's grand daughter.  

I think Charlotte is just bad casting in terms of her age.  The actress is early 30s when forties or fifties would have served.  Maybe they wanted the snottiness of youth.  Or the confidence.  She is as confident as Ford in her own way.  Teresa 's death barely touched her.  Charlotte may be a different kind of monster.

I definitely think Charlotte is pretty bad, though to her credit, she atleast hasn't killed anyone that we know of. Sizemore still takes the cake for douchery in my view, though I find him a lot more palatable now that it appears he's apparently agreed to be Charlotte's underling. I'm absolutely fine with Charlotte's age though, along with her state of dress when organizing meetings ;-). 

[arc]

55 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Maybe William was just ahead of his time in the human/Host love movement.

Futurama warned us about this! "Don't date robots!"

[Pippin]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Wait, are you saying Ford = the Borg Queen ???? :D :D :D

 

So what you took away from my speculation is that Ford runs around in a leather bustier and six inch stiletto heels?  Ew ew ew ew ....

Thanks a lot for that image.  Now I have to go bleach my brain.

;)

Chris24601: That's what I get for not keeping up with my reading.  However, I still maintain that homo sap are, collectively, a mean bunch of SOBs.  I base this on evidence that our migration out of Africa was accompanied by mass extinction of a number of species; that is to say, humans move into an area and immediately exterminate whatever happens to taste good. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Pippin

[phoenyx]

On 11/30/2016 at 3:00 AM, arc said:

Futurama warned us about this! "Don't date robots!"

Lol :-). That being said, if I found an android like Dolores, I'd date her in a heartbeat ;-). 

 

On 11/30/2016 at 3:33 AM, Pippin said:

Chris24601: That's what I get for not keeping up with my reading.  However, I still maintain that homo sap are, collectively, a mean bunch of SOBs.  I base this on evidence that our migration out of Africa was accompanied by mass extinction of a number of species; that is to say, humans move into an area and immediately exterminate whatever happens to taste good. 

Or to put it the way Agent Smith (a machine intelligence) put it in The Matrix:

Spoiler

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.

 

Agent Smith is a bit harsh, but, well... he's got a bit of a point -.- Seriously, humanity's got to clean up its act soon or we'll soon just be one more extinct species.

Edited December 1, 2016 by phoenyx

[Pallas]

20 hours ago, Lingo said:

I may be wrong on this, but it sounded to me much like the voice that Dolores has been hearing in her head all season (the one that says "Remember" and stuff like that).

To me that bicameral-mind voice sounds to me like Jeffrey's Wright's. More and more so, either because I became more familiar with Wright's tone, or because his voice-over loops were allowed to become increasingly distinct.

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

Take, for instance, Maeve dying in the center of a maze in the ground. Someone asked how it got there. Perhaps it was always there? But then, why was it always there? Personally, I took the whole thing as a metaphor- that is, that the maze is not -really- a place, so much as a state of mind. So, what does it mean to be at the center of the maze, as Maeve clearly ended?

I think the maze insignia is summoned or perceived by people who are bereft. Dying Maeve with her murdered daughter. The Man in Black whose wife had killed herself. Lawrence's daughter after the Man murdered her mother, and her father left with him. Bernard, who even more than most mourners, woke each day into his loss. Dolores soon after the murders of her parents. Not William, though, when he's encountered it: to him it doesn't look like anything. But he'll catch sight of it before the season ends.

[Macbeth]

I am rethinking Bernard's death.  I believe Ford will just do another wipe with him.  Ford's ego would never allow him to think that he failed when it came to a robot.  Especially one as valuable to him as Bernard. 

I can't imagine this show without Jeffrey Wright.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But she would recognize Bernard/Arnold.  No way she doesn't have a photo of her dad.  Unless she is Arnold's grand daughter.  

I think Charlotte is just bad casting in terms of her age.  The actress is early 30s when forties or fifties would have served.  Maybe they wanted the snottiness of youth.  Or the confidence.  She is as confident as Ford in her own way.  Teresa 's death barely touched her.  Charlotte may be a different kind of monster.

I was speculating that Charlotte does know Bernard is a bot and was just trying to take one of Ford's pieces off the board.

Alternatively, it's possible that she could recognize the similarity but dismiss the notion that Ford made a robot duplicate of her dad because that's crazy. 

Or that Charlotte is not a daughter of Arnold but a niece or some such. 

I think Westworld would have been improved  not a small amount if Gina Torres had the Charlotte role and Tessa had the fake Bernard wife role. Yes, even the sex scenes.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chris24601]

7 hours ago, Pippin said:

Chris24601: That's what I get for not keeping up with my reading.  However, I still maintain that homo sap are, collectively, a mean bunch of SOBs.  I base this on evidence that our migration out of Africa was accompanied by mass extinction of a number of species; that is to say, humans move into an area and immediately exterminate whatever happens to taste good. 

Humans are hardly unique in that respect though. Look up the Emerald Ash Borer sometime... its a bug native to Asia that found its way to North America and is essentially committing mass genocide on our defenseless ash trees.

Mass extinctions of species have been happening for going on a billion years now; long before we ever showed up on the scene. Heck, algae killed off most of the other life on this planet when it absorbed all the CO2 in the atmosphere that other life forms needed to breathe and converted into toxic and caustic Oxygen.

Believing that humanity is in some way uniquely cruel is the height of hubris and actually the opposite of reality. Humans are the ONLY species in the entire history of this planet that has ever given any consideration at all to protecting and defending other species from extinction.

There's a reason why treating things with kindness is called "Humane" while those who behave savagely are often called "Animals."

Edited November 30, 2016 by Chris24601

[driedfruit]

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But she would recognize Bernard/Arnold.  No way she doesn't have a photo of her dad.  Unless she is Arnold's grand daughter.  

I think Charlotte is just bad casting in terms of her age.  The actress is early 30s when forties or fifties would have served.  Maybe they wanted the snottiness of youth.  Or the confidence.  She is as confident as Ford in her own way.  Teresa 's death barely touched her.  Charlotte may be a different kind of monster.

But who says she doesn't know what Bernard is? Theresa didn't, but nothing to say Charlotte doesn't know. 

I think if they wanted an older actress they would've cast one. See Maeve and Theresa, who are/were both unabashedly confident, even arrogant. Charlotte being so young tells me she's a nepotism hire, like Logan, which IMO is the point.  

 

Quote

Believing that humanity is in some way uniquely cruel is the height of hubris and actually the opposite of reality. Humans are the ONLY species in the entire history of this planet that has ever given any consideration at all to protecting and defending other species from extinction.

The same species we nearly extinct by destroying their environment or for wanting their skin because it looks good, none of which having to do with evolution or survival? The consensus today is that we're not uniquely cruel or good but we're the far extreme of emotions, motivated much more strongly towards compassion and destruction. With AI it's up to debate. Are they more extreme than us in the emotional spectrum, or less so? If they're more rational they'll probably be less dangerous than we are. So it's possible Ford is worried for them getting destroyed by the terribly devastating powers of human fear.   

Edited November 30, 2016 by driedfruit

[Netfoot]

14 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I really would not have enjoyed this show without the forum.

Agreed.  Because without access to the combined observational power of ten thousand pairs of eyes, I'd have drowned in confusion ages ago, and stopped watching.  I simply don't believe this show is understandable to an audience who watches it in isolation; without social media, YouTube, forums, etc, to explain it all.  And I'm pretty certain that TPTB are leaking titbits that nobody would likely have spotted, just to nudge us along to the next episode.

14 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Are there plotholes?   All movies have plotholes.

Sure.  But most of the time, the plotholes aren't deliberately introduced to increase the WTF factor of the show.

12 hours ago, Pippin said:

I wondered if he really fears the opposite?  That should the hosts achieve sentience, they would first dominate and then destroy humanity?  And in doing so, become as nasty as humanity itself? 

Plausible.  They are modeled on humanity, programmed to be as realistically human as possible, and then taught by example by humans who are not hindered from letting their dark side shine through.  Why wouldn't a fully aware host be just as or even meaner and nastier than it's creator?

12 hours ago, Pippin said:

And here's a really far-out speculation...

Not so far out that I haven't speculated it before.  :)

[blackwing]

So we have seen Dolores hearing a voice several times, and it has been said that this is the voice of Arnold.  But Bernard is based off of Arnold, and clearly that voice we heard was not Bernard's voice.  It doesn't make sense to me that Ford would create an Arnold and not give it Arnold's voice.  It also doesn't make sense to me that Arnold would be using some different voice (through an emulator or having someone else give commands on his behalf) to "talk" to the hosts.  I know this is probably because they wanted the Arnold/Bernard connection to be kept hidden until the reveal, but I guess I just have to handwave it.

[Unknown poster]

33 minutes ago, blackwing said:

So we have seen Dolores hearing a voice several times, and it has been said that this is the voice of Arnold.  But Bernard is based off of Arnold, and clearly that voice we heard was not Bernard's voice.  It doesn't make sense to me that Ford would create an Arnold and not give it Arnold's voice.  It also doesn't make sense to me that Arnold would be using some different voice (through an emulator or having someone else give commands on his behalf) to "talk" to the hosts.  I know this is probably because they wanted the Arnold/Bernard connection to be kept hidden until the reveal, but I guess I just have to handwave it.

I rewatched the first two episodes prior to Sunday's premiere,  and thought the voice was pretty clearly Bernard , albeit a bit distorted . 

[Ellaria]

13 hours ago, Pippin said:

When Ford was talking about how the human race would basically destroy the hosts because humans are such SOBs (very true; there were several species of hominids and homo sapiens sapiens was the only one to survive, essentially because we were meaner and nastier than the others) I wondered if he really fears the opposite?  That should the hosts achieve sentience, they would first dominate and then destroy humanity?  And in doing so, become as nasty as humanity itself?  That might be one reason he keeps them on a leash; he is, in his own mind, keeping them pure and safe.  I don't think he's all that concerned about humanity.

And here's a really far-out speculation -- just for the hell of it -- Ford is an android.  He figured out a way to upload his consciousness into an android body and did so.  Why?  He had an incurable disease and wasn't ready to die.  Delos suspects that he's done this and they want the technology and that's the code they're seeking.  Can you imagine the power and money available if you have the ability to grant youth and immortality?  And it would explain why he seems to know (almost) everything that's going on; he's also plugged into the central core ... Think about it.

 

Excellent points here. I agree that Ford isn't concerned about humanity. As far as we know, he doesn't have a life outside of the park. He didn't have a happy childhood. His best pal is dead and, in his place, a robot. And one of his drinking buddies is Robot Bill. I think its safe to say that Ford prefers hosts to humans.

It is interesting speculation but I don't believe that Ford is an android. Regardless, the ability to grant eternal youth and immortality would be a strong motivator to organizations and individuals.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, huahaha said:

Were those things really irrefutable though? And even if they were, instant suicide pact? If I found out I was in some sort of simulation, I might think things over for a day or so.

If someone were to say to you, "Everything you know is a lie. And to prove it, I will give you a detailed prediction of something that is about to happen that I could not possibly predict just out of guesswork. I will also show you that this goal you sought to attain and finally have was in fact meaningless," I think it would be pretty irrefutable that the person has some sort of profound knowledge beyond the ordinary. 

That's what Maeve did when she told Hector exactly who would shoot whom over the safe, and in what order. 

Add onto that that Hector apparently began to remember his previous interaction with Maeve when he fished the bullet out of her, and I could see having enough faith to follow her lead.

[huahaha]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If someone were to say to you, "Everything you know is a lie. And to prove it, I will give you a detailed prediction of something that is about to happen that I could not possibly predict just out of guesswork. I will also show you that this goal you sought to attain and finally have was in fact meaningless," I think it would be pretty irrefutable that the person has some sort of profound knowledge beyond the ordinary. 

That's what Maeve did when she told Hector exactly who would shoot whom over the safe, and in what order. 

Add onto that that Hector apparently began to remember his previous interaction with Maeve when he fished the bullet out of her, and I could see having enough faith to follow her lead.

Someone could easily predict all of those things. Maeve could've emptied the safe herself, for example, then conspired with the shooters. If a similar scenario happened to you, you'd immediately jump to the conclusion that your life was worthless so you might as well end it all right then? Honestly, I don't believe anyone would do that. It doesn't make any sense. (Nor did the time with the bullet.)

Conspiracies happen. They don't lead to instant suicide in most cases.

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Someone could easily predict all of those things. Maeve could've emptied the safe herself, for example, then conspired with the shooters. If a similar scenario happened to you, you'd immediately jump to the conclusion that your life was worthless so you might as well end it all right then? Honestly, I don't believe anyone would do that. It doesn't make any sense. (Nor did the time with the bullet.)

Conspiracies happen. They don't lead to instant suicide in most cases.

Except that Hector is the 1 character that thinks the world is going to end anyway.  So he might be more inclined to follow Maeve, if nothing else, just for the heck of it.

[ennui]

10 hours ago, phoenyx said:

humanity's got to clean up its act soon or we'll soon just be one more extinct species.

Space, the final frontier.

20 minutes ago, huahaha said:

If a similar scenario happened to you, you'd immediately jump to the conclusion that your life was worthless so you might as well end it all right then?

Many people who attempt suicide had never considered it until a couple of minutes prior to the act.

2 hours ago, Unknown poster said:

the voice was pretty clearly Bernard , albeit a bit distorted . 

The voice in Dolores's head is distorted because it's a blend. Sometimes I hear Bernard, sometimes MiB, sometimes William. 

[Unknown poster]

20 minutes ago, ennui said:

Space, the final frontier.

Many people who attempt suicide had never considered it until a couple of minutes prior to the act.

The voice in Dolores's head is distorted because it's a blend. Sometimes I hear Bernard, sometimes MiB, sometimes William. 

Fair enough . I haven't rewatched past episode two. I'll listen for that going forward. It just struck me as clearly Bernard's voice in the opening of "Chestnut " saying "remember "

[Willowy]

Did anyone else get a Spock/Bones (from The Search for Spock) vibe when that 'remember' was used? 

Just me? :P

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, huahaha said:

Someone could easily predict all of those things. Maeve could've emptied the safe herself, for example, then conspired with the shooters. If a similar scenario happened to you, you'd immediately jump to the conclusion that your life was worthless so you might as well end it all right then? Honestly, I don't believe anyone would do that. It doesn't make any sense. (Nor did the time with the bullet.)

Conspiracies happen. They don't lead to instant suicide in most cases.

Granted, Maeve, particularly as the proprietor of the Mariposa, could have emptied the safe.

However, it defies possibility that Maeve had the opportunity to meet with the outlaws in the first place. Much less the opportunity to convince them to fatally shoot their friends. This isn't like the scene in Dark Knight where the Joker gives separate crooks who don't know each other to turn on each other. These people (presumably) have backstories linking them together for a long time. Why would they listen to some woman that they don't know from Adam.

And even supposing for argument's sake that she had a chance to meet with each of the outlaws and get them to turn on each other, there would still be no way for her to predict that Outlaw A will shoot Outlaw C, then Outlaw D will shoot Outlaw A, then Outlaw B will shoot Outlaw D.  That Maeve was able to articulate the exact order in which they shot each other just couldn't be explained by conspiracy.

Also, you need to factor in that Hector already had beliefs of another world and gods and so forth. Maeve tells him, I've met the gods of this other world, and this is how you can meet them too. That might have made him more receptive to her message.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[ennui]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, you need to factor in that Hector already had beliefs of another world and gods and so forth. Maeve tells him, I've met the gods of this other world, and this is how you can meet them too. That might have made him more receptive to her message.

Did she have her legs wrapped around him before or after she said that?  Context is everything with men.  :)

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, ennui said:

Did she have her legs wrapped around him before or after she said that?  Context is everything with men.  :)

Lol :-)

[WWfan]

Apologies if this has been asked (or mentioned), but was that Arnold (Bernard) lying there dead in Teddy’s memory of Escalante?  It looks like Angela (Talulah) weeping over him just before Teddy shots her.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

Apologies if this has been asked (or mentioned), but was that Arnold (Bernard) lying there dead in Teddy’s memory of Escalante?  It looks like Angela (Talulah) weeping over him just before Teddy shots her.

I have no idea and I can't go back to check.   That would be an awesome catch if so.

Edited December 1, 2016 by jeansheridan

[phoenyx]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I have no idea and I can't go back to check.   That would be an awesome catch if so.

It might be. I'm not an expert on faces though, someone else might say, no way, that's not Arnold. Here's a screenshot...

 

[phoenyx]

For comparison, here's what many believe is Arnold talking to Dolores. Arnold's beard is bushier in this one, and the eyebrows less so. Also, the man with Angela seems younger...

[Bill1978]

I just found the scene on my recorder and I want to say n, cause the skin is too smooth and he doesn't look old enough to be Arnold.

My gut is telling me that the sequence of deaths is. Putting in spiler bar even though its just speculaton

Spoiler

Dolores kills Teddy. And then has a conversation with Arnold and kills him and then turns the gun on herself and kills herself, as shown in last week's flashback

And while I was rewinding, I was reminded of a thought I had on first watching the church scene as Dolores enters it. Are they implying that when the hosts heard the voice of God (can't remember the exaxct phrasing used), they kinda went a bit mad. And is that why maybe

Spoiler

Teddy and Dolores go on a shooting spree

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

I just found the scene on my recorder and I want to say n, cause the skin is too smooth and he doesn't look old enough to be Arnold.

My gut is telling me that the sequence of deaths is. Putting in spiler bar even though its just speculaton

  Hide contents

Dolores kills Teddy. And then has a conversation with Arnold and kills him and then turns the gun on herself and kills herself, as shown in last week's flashback

And while I was rewinding, I was reminded of a thought I had on first watching the church scene as Dolores enters it. Are they implying that when the hosts heard the voice of God (can't remember the exaxct phrasing used), they kinda went a bit mad. And is that why maybe

  Hide contents

Teddy and Dolores go on a shooting spree

I think it was as explicit as this show gets that bicameral mind/voice of God made the hosts go mad. Intercut with Ford's discussion of  it with Bernard, after his comment "The hosts' malfunctions were colorful" was the scene inside the church with the hosts acting quite disturbed.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

It might be. I'm not an expert on faces though, someone else might say, no way, that's not Arnold. Here's a screenshot...

 

I think this is another example of the show using similar looking actors to mislead us. In the first episode, there was a guest on the train who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like TMIB, but wasn't. There was also the other bounty hunter (the one with William and Logan) who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like Teddy.

[loki567]

I'm still hoping out hope that Elsie's alive and she's responsible for the Ghost Nation kidnapping Stubbs (as he's probably the only person Elsie would kinda, sorta trust right now). Her death doesn't make sense on several levels (Ford doesn't even have a motive to kill her) and getting multiple flashbacks of Bernard killing her, along with Ford denying that he ordered Bernard to hurt anyone else, something doesn't seem right about the situation. My guess is that Ghost Nation grabbed her, she hacked them, and is now pulling a guerrilla war from inside the park.  

[phoenyx]

15 hours ago, loki567 said:

I'm still hoping out hope that Elsie's alive and she's responsible for the Ghost Nation kidnapping Stubbs (as he's probably the only person Elsie would kinda, sorta trust right now). Her death doesn't make sense on several levels (Ford doesn't even have a motive to kill her) and getting multiple flashbacks of Bernard killing her, along with Ford denying that he ordered Bernard to hurt anyone else, something doesn't seem right about the situation. My guess is that Ghost Nation grabbed her, she hacked them, and is now pulling a guerrilla war from inside the park.  

Actually, I think Ford may have a reason for killing her. Basically, I think she had learned more then he felt was safe. But most importantly, there's this exchange between Ford and Bernard back in Trace Decay (Episode 8):

Spoiler

BERNARD LOWE: One last thing. Have you ever made me hurt anyone like this before?

DR. ROBERT FORD: No, Bernard. Of course not.

[Bernard gazes downward and a memory of him (Bernard) choking Elsie flashes across his mind. Bernard's head snaps up and just then Ford hits the button to erase his memory.]

DR. ROBERT FORD: Best not to dwell on these troubling memories. Otherwise, you might be drawn back into them. You might lose yourself in them, as some of your fellow hosts have every now and then.

That being said, even Lisa Joy, one of the showrunners, has said that she isn't sure if Elsie is dead. Bernard may have just choked Elsie to unconsciousness, not to death. Furthermore, I just found an article wherein Stephen Williams, the director of Trace Decay had something very interesting to say. Here's the question asked by the interviewer, and Stephen Williams' response:

Spoiler

 

Interviewer: Some are taking that as confirmation that Bernard killed Elsie (Shannon Woodward). Is that the right read?

Stephen: Very nicely done. (Laughs.) Let me refer you to your earlier question about Lost. There’s a form of storytelling that I happen to be somewhat partial to, which embraces the thrill of ambiguity. So I will only say this: I will answer your question with this question. Are we in fact sure that that was Elsie?

 

Perhaps Stephen just likes messing with the audience. Even before answering the question he was asked with a question of his own, he prefaces it by saying that he loves the "thrill of ambiguity". Nevertheless, the interviewer/author of the article decides to make some speculations based on what he said: 

Spoiler

Westworld being Westworld, there are any number of ways to interpret that remark. Does Elsie have a twin sister lurking in the bowels of the park? Was Elsie attacked by a host doppelganger of herself, only for Bernard to intervene and strangle Fake-Elsie? Could Bernard’s vision or memory have been altered to remember choking Elsie, when in fact it was someone else?

Here's a picture of Elsie:

Below is a screenshot of who Bernard was choking. Are they the same person? I certainly thought so (and so did the person who wrote the transcripts over at losttv-forum.com), but now I'm not so sure.

 

17 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think this is another example of the show using similar looking actors to mislead us. In the first episode, there was a guest on the train who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like TMIB, but wasn't. There was also the other bounty hunter (the one with William and Logan) who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like Teddy.

I'm inclined to agree. Here's another possibility- Ford wasn't being entirely honest when he said that he created Bernard. He may have actually been using software that Arnold himself had designed and implanted in one or more androids that were similar in apperance, but not quite the same as, Arnold himself, such as the dead man that Angela was crying over. 

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, phoenyx said:

It might be. I'm not an expert on faces though, someone else might say, no way, that's not Arnold. Here's a screenshot...

 

Nope, that guy does not look like Jeffrey Wright.  He has different nose, for instance

[phoenyx]

17 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Nope, that guy does not look like Jeffrey Wright.  He has different nose, for instance

I wouldn't say that he doesn't -look- like Jeffrey Wright. That being said, you're right, the nose is different, and the skin colour in the dead man/android looks lighter too. Perhaps Arnold just created one or more androids that looked -somewhat- like him, but not quite.

[DarkRaichu]

21 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

I wouldn't say that he doesn't -look- like Jeffrey Wright. That being said, you're right, the nose is different, and the skin colour in the dead man/android looks lighter too. Perhaps Arnold just created one or more androids that looked -somewhat- like him, but not quite.

Hmm, he looked different enough to me that the scene did not cause me to rewind for a 2nd look ;)

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think this is another example of the show using similar looking actors to mislead us. In the first episode, there was a guest on the train who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like TMIB, but wasn't. There was also the other bounty hunter (the one with William and Logan) who was dressed like, looked like, and sounded like Teddy.

I must have watched too much TV then, because none of those characters reminded me of the other characters they were supposed to resemble :)  For example, with the amount of Wanted posters at Sweetwater, it would make sense to have more than 1 bounty hunter running around Westworld. ;)

[Abernathy]

Quote

THE DELOS SECURITY PANEL IS THE LARGELY AUTONOMOUS SOFTWARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MONITORING ACTIVITY BOTH IN THE PARK AND WITHIN THE WESTWORLD CORPORATE OFFICES.

EFFICIENT AND COMPREHENSIVE, THE SECURITY PANEL FLAGS POTENTIALLY ANOMALOUS BEHAVIOR AND SENDS IT TO THE ATTENTION OF SURVEILLANCE TECHNICIANS IN THE CONTROL ROOM, ALLOCATING INFORMATION ON AN AS-NEEDED BASIS.

source : http://delosincorporated.com/#corp-resources

Again, either Maeve's awakening is Ford's idea or else the guys that designed the software should be fired on the spot.

[Abernathy]

Did you guys noticed that Angela and the Wyatt gang also blindfolded the horse in the MIB scene? I didn't noticed that at the time (only after I saw a comment online). Remember horses in the park are hosts too, that way he would not know he was really harming a guest.

[Abernathy]

Someone mentioned changes on the "WANTED" posters. Can you elaborate? (seems one more thing that I missed)

[ACW]

On 11/30/2016 at 1:49 AM, huahaha said:

On a different show, Charlotte would turn out to be a bot. Funny how her lack of nuance and characterization makes me think she's supposed to just be human.

Or else a robot double of Arnold's late wife or daughter...

[ennui]

3 hours ago, Abernathy said:

Someone mentioned changes on the "WANTED" posters. Can you elaborate? (seems one more thing that I missed)

The style of the posters changes (some are black and white, some are black/white/red), and the name of the criminal changes; sometimes it's Hector Escaton, not always. The theory is that the wanted posters indicate the time period. I usually only notice the wanted poster at the beginning of Maeve's day, when it's Hector.

[DarkRaichu]

15 minutes ago, ennui said:

The style of the posters changes (some are black and white, some are black/white/red), and the name of the criminal changes; sometimes it's Hector Escaton, not always. The theory is that the wanted posters indicate the time period. I usually only notice the wanted poster at the beginning of Maeve's day, when it's Hector.

Somebody re-watch and check this, IIRC, there is no wanted poster for Hector in the William's timeline.

[Gobi]

20 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Somebody re-watch and check this, IIRC, there is no wanted poster for Hector in the William's timeline.

The only wanted posters in William's timeline that I recall are the ones outside the Sheriff's office.

[Netfoot]

Don't think this is Bernard.

[Gobi]

1 minute ago, Netfoot said:

Don't think this is Bernard.

I'm going with the theory (not my own, so it could be correct) that Arnold is going to be the "General" that Dolores kills in the original massacre. Of course, she may have pulled the trigger, but did Ford put the gun in her hand?

[Ellaria]

5 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Don't think this is Bernard.

Neither do I.  This guy does not look like Jeffrey Wright.

[Stanner]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I must have watched too much TV then, because none of those characters reminded me of the other characters they were supposed to resemble :)  For example, with the amount of Wanted posters at Sweetwater, it would make sense to have more than 1 bounty hunter running around Westworld. ;)

I went back and checked these and I don't see, or hear, the resemblance. 

On another note, that definitely looks like Elsie. The asymmetrical nostrils seem the same. (This is before the attack and not Bernard's flashback.

 

[DarkRaichu]

9 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Don't think this is Bernard.

AHA! So you did finally join the "Society of Westworld Fans Who Freeze Frame Scenes to Find Clues for 2 Timelines"  :D

[okerry]

6 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Actually, I think Ford may have a reason for killing her. Basically, I think she had learned more then he felt was safe. But most importantly, there's this exchange between Ford and Bernard back in Trace Decay (Episode 8):

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BERNARD LOWE: One last thing. Have you ever made me hurt anyone like this before?

DR. ROBERT FORD: No, Bernard. Of course not.

[Bernard gazes downward and a memory of him (Bernard) choking Elsie flashes across his mind. Bernard's head snaps up and just then Ford hits the button to erase his memory.]

DR. ROBERT FORD: Best not to dwell on these troubling memories. Otherwise, you might be drawn back into them. You might lose yourself in them, as some of your fellow hosts have every now and then.

That being said, even Lisa Joy, one of the showrunners, has said that she isn't sure if Elsie is dead. Bernard may have just choked Elsie to unconsciousness, not to death. Furthermore, I just found an article wherein Stephen Williams, the director of Trace Decay had something very interesting to say. Here's the question asked by the interviewer, and Stephen Williams' response:

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Interviewer: Some are taking that as confirmation that Bernard killed Elsie (Shannon Woodward). Is that the right read?

Stephen: Very nicely done. (Laughs.) Let me refer you to your earlier question about Lost. There’s a form of storytelling that I happen to be somewhat partial to, which embraces the thrill of ambiguity. So I will only say this: I will answer your question with this question. Are we in fact sure that that was Elsie?

 

Perhaps Stephen just likes messing with the audience. Even before answering the question he was asked with a question of his own, he prefaces it by saying that he loves the "thrill of ambiguity". Nevertheless, the interviewer/author of the article decides to make some speculations based on what he said: 

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Westworld being Westworld, there are any number of ways to interpret that remark. Does Elsie have a twin sister lurking in the bowels of the park? Was Elsie attacked by a host doppelganger of herself, only for Bernard to intervene and strangle Fake-Elsie? Could Bernard’s vision or memory have been altered to remember choking Elsie, when in fact it was someone else?

Here's a picture of Elsie:

Below is a screenshot of who Bernard was choking. Are they the same person? I certainly thought so (and so did the person who wrote the transcripts over at losttv-forum.com), but now I'm not so sure.

I did notice that the strangled person was wearing pants and boots just like Elsie's. Though I really hope Elsie and Stubbs are still alive. They could add some very cool and unexpected (by Ford) complications to the story.

11 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Neither do I.  This guy does not look like Jeffrey Wright.

I feel sure that it's a different actor - younger, for one thing - though with similar beard, race, etc. Whether it's actually supposed to be a younger Arnold is another question.