History Talk: The British Monarchy

[Ame]

This is so delicious! 

Extracted from Who Loses, Who Wins: The Journals Of Kenneth Rose, Vol II 1979-2014

February 24, 1981

Watch the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer being interviewed on TV. There is something sad about a girl of 19 being led into royal captivity.

July 16, 1981

Johnnie [Earl] Spencer [Diana’s father] tells me that he wanted to wear his Greys [cavalry regiment] uniform when Diana marries the Prince of Wales, but that Diana herself objected.

She thought it would detract from her own appearance. This is most extraordinary, like something from King Lear.

August 8, 1981

On the Royal Wedding, I hear that it was originally arranged that in the carriage procession from St Paul’s back to the Palace, Johnnie Spencer should drive with his former wife (and of course Diana’s mother), Mrs Shand Kydd.

But when told this at a meeting in Buckingham Palace, Johnnie pulled such a long face that the Queen said: ‘Oh, all right then, you can drive with me,’ which much to his delight he did.

The Spencers were given 50 seats for St Paul’s. When Johnnie showed Diana his draft list, she crossed out all the family who had not bothered to come to the weddings of her sisters! One day she will be very formidable.

October 9, 1981

Duke Hussey [future BBC chairman, married to the Queen’s woman of the bedchamber] has been staying at Balmoral. He reports that rumours of Princess Diana’s boredom are accurate: the Prince goes out at nine to shoot or fish and she does not see him again until seven.

Dukie wonders if he will make a sufficiently good king: he thinks not. The Prince is too immature, and the contrast with the firm style of the Queen will be most marked.

February 6, 1983

I hear reports of the school where the Princess of Wales taught infants. She is apparently not very clever and certainly without any of the intellectual resources needed in marriage to the Prince of Wales.

December 24, 1985

Marie-Lou de Zulueta [wife of a diplomat] tells me a charming story of Prince Charles when a small boy. One day he came barging into [Comptroller] Boy Browning’s room and heard him talking on the telephone to the Queen. So he asked: ‘Who is the Queen?’

Boy explained that it was his mother, but Charles simply did not believe that she could be both his mother and Queen.

The next day, however, he admitted that Boy Browning had been right. ‘How do you know?’ Boy asked.

‘I asked the policeman.’

January 25, 1986

Prince Charles tells me that the only thing the Duke of Windsor left him in his will was a collection of kilts: ‘But as my great-uncle was such a tiny man, none of them fit me!’

November 13, 1986

I ask [Eton provost] Martin Charteris whether there is any truth in the rumour I have heard: that the Princess of Wales is having tuition in English literature and other matters at Eton from [former provost] Eric Anderson.

He tells me it is so, although officially it is being denied.

April 27, 1988

Raine Spencer [stepmother to Princess Diana] telephones to ask me to lunch at Althorp [the Spencer family seat in Northamptonshire]. She talks at length about the Prince of Wales’s marriage. She much admires the public qualities of the Prince, especially his concern for the inner cities. But she thinks the Princess of Wales has a difficult life.

‘They don’t look to me like two people in love. They have different bedrooms and she never seems to want to touch him. When he says, “Give me a kiss” she does not respond.’ She has no artistic side to match his, which is a further gulf

December 9, 1992

I hear on the wireless the PM making a Commons statement on the impending separation of the Prince and Princess of Wales.

December 13, 1992

[Lawyer and political adviser] Arnold Goodman calls. We talk about the Wales affair. He does not care for Charles’s ‘empty pretensions to be an intellectual’, nor for his unforgiving character.

‘Of course,’ he says, ‘Diana has deliberately and publicly humiliated him — and incidentally made [Andrew] Morton [author of Diana: My Own Story, for which she was the anonymous source, explaining her unhappiness and revealing that Charles was having an affair with Camilla], a millionaire. So it is not surprising that he hates her and has not the generosity of spirit to offer a reconciliation.’

How will Diana now behave? Will she lead a quiet and dignified life that could one day lead to a reconciliation? Almost certainly not. She wants to make it difficult for Charles to become King, and to ensure that she will be the nemesis.

April 5, 1993

I hear how cunning the Princess of Wales is. The other day, she discovered when the Prince would be in his new quarters in St James’s Palace, then turned up and told him she had come to see if he was comfortable.

She even insisted on looking at his bedroom, and saying that it needed a small table which she would find for him. The Prince is terrified of her.

Martin Charteris tells me: ‘If the Queen had taken as much trouble over the bloodlines of her sons’ wives as she has over her horses and dogs, she would have avoided a lot of trouble

October 18, 1994

I talk to King Constantine [of Greece] about [broadcaster and author] Jonathan Dimbleby’s book on Prince Charles. We agree that it cannot do the Prince any good and almost certainly will bring him into public contempt.

It might have been worse had certain political passages not been removed from the earlier drafts, e.g. that the Prince was opposed to cuts in the Armed Forces.

November 5, 1994

Staying at Blagdon [home of Viscount Ridley]. Princess Margaret is a fellow guest. She agrees with me that the Prince and Princess of Wales must divorce. ‘But Charles simply won’t listen to my advice. As I talked to him, I noticed his eyes roaming round the room.’

PM minded very much that the Dimbleby book about the Prince came out during the Queen’s visit to Russia

Royal Family come to?

June 3, 1995

I stay for the weekend with [interior decorator] David and Pamela Hicks. Princess Alexandra told Pammy that she never argues with Prince Charles, so terrible is his rage. He never consults the Queen. ‘There has been a complete break.’

Prince William is tiresome, always attracting attention to himself. Hardly surprising when he is so spoilt by the tug-of-war of his parents and by courtiers, servants and detectives.

November 21, 1995

The Princess of Wales’s [BBC Panorama] TV interview seems to have been technically accomplished but horribly indiscreet — an admission of adultery with James Hewitt.

December 21, 1995

I give breakfast to [Chief of the General Staff] Charles Guthrie at the Hyde Park Hotel. The Army does not like the Prince of Wales. When Charles Guthrie was received by him the other day, the Prince complained of overwork, which is absurd.

January 14, 1996

[Baroness-in-waiting to the Queen] Jean Trumpington has been told that the Princess of Wales spent 17 hours recording the notorious [Panorama] TV broadcast: she did each bit again and again until she had achieved the right degree of spurious sincerity.

May 31, 1996

Princess Margaret says: ‘How glad the family will be to be rid of the wives, Diana and Fergie.’

August 31, 1997

I am awakened by the telephone at 6.15. It is NBC from America. ‘Have you heard the news? Princess Diana and Dodi Fayed have been killed in a car crash a few hours ago. Will you take part in a programme on her?’ At such a moment only undiluted appreciation will serve. So I decline.

September 11, 1997

[Tory politician and former high master of St Paul’s School] Peter Pilkington was as horrified as I was by the funeral address of Charles Spencer. ‘I have preached many funeral sermons, but have always made it a rule not to parade division and hatred.’

Peter puts down the mass hysteria, which is still continuing, to a rootless, under-educated urban population.

Not that Peter has a lot to say for Prince Charles. ‘He has compounded his personal failings by too much moralising. On the Duchy of Cornwall estates, he is known for his high rents and expensive organic farming.’

February 3, 1998

Dukie Hussey to lunch at the Ritz. We are at one on the spurious reputation for saintliness of Diana.

She wanted to watch an operation at the Royal Marsden Hospital, of which Dukie was chairman. Dukie was absolutely against it, but how to put her off?

The solution was to find a patient who would refuse to give permission for any spectator to be present. This the administration managed to do and the news was broken to a sorrowful Diana

June 4, 1998

Princess Margaret tells me about the proposed memorial garden to Princess Diana in front of Kensington Palace: ‘Of course we don’t want it. After all, she lived at the back of the house, not the front.

‘It will be quite enough of a memorial to restore the grass in front which all these people trampled the week she died. And certainly no 300ft fountain in the Round Pond!’

July 12, 1998

The Queen Mother tells me she is not in favour of a memorial to Princess Diana in Kensington Gardens.

July 21, 1998

Prince Eddie [the Duke of Kent] to lunch at Le Gavroche. He is utterly furious about the plans for a memorial garden to Princess Diana in Kensington.

August 15, 1998

The Prince of Wales has written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer approving the proposed memorial garden to Princess Diana in Kensington Gardens.

Why should the public be deprived of part of that lovely park to soothe the Prince’s conscience? I make a point of sitting there for some time this afternoon: utter peaceful 

January 2, 2001

Prue Penn [the Queen Mother’s lady-in-waiting] tells me that at Sandringham in the summer, the Queen invited her to attend a little service in one of its rooms conducted by the local parson. The only other person present was the Queen Mother.

Some of the servants had complained that the room was haunted and did not want to work in it. The parson walked from room to room and did indeed feel some sort of restlessness in one of them.

This the Queen Mother identified as a ground-floor room which had been turned into a bedroom for George VI during his last months. So the parson held a service there, not exactly of exorcism, which is the driving out of an evil spirit, but of bringing tranquillity.

The congregation of three took Holy Communion and special prayers were said, I think for the repose of the King’s soul in the room in which he died.

The parson said that the oppressive or disturbing atmosphere may have been because of Princess Diana: he had known such things before when someone died a violent death.

December 4, 2002

I lunch at the Savoy with John Riddell [former private secretary to Prince Charles]. We talk about the mess that the Royal Family continues to be in, after the break-up of Charles and Diana’s marriage and her tragic death. Both of whom led separate lives almost from the moment of marriage.

John tried to jolt the Prince out of his self-absorbed life by telling him that he ought to learn how ordinary people live by talking to Diana more; she, after all, had lived an unsheltered life with her friends in a London flat. Charles replied: ‘I prefer to talk to [author and philosopher] Laurens van der Post.’

February 13, 2005

I ask Edward Ford [Extra Equerry to the Queen, and her former assistant private secretary] whether he will give a royal bow to Camilla once she becomes the Duchess of Cornwall. He says: ‘I shall look at my shoes, as if they need cleaning.’

December 23, 2005

Prince Eddie [the Duke of Kent] tells me about the Royal Family Christmas lunch. ‘I was lucky enough to sit next to Camilla. She is one of the best things to have happened for years. I like her down-to-earth good sense, total lack of airs, warmth, friendliness and sense of humour.’

September 14, 1994

Motor down to see the Duchess of York. I am greeted with shouts of ‘Ken, Ken’ from Beatrice and Eugenie. There is the biggest, richest chocolate cake I have ever seen, and crumpets, sausages, sardines and fish fingers.

Fergie has both sides of her correspondence with Andrew: when he was away, she wrote to him every day. She also has the letters written to her by the Queen.

She goes on: ‘I also have Prince Philip’s letters, telling me that I have let down The Firm. In one of them, he wrote that he had been reading a book about Edwina Mountbatten [Lord Mountbatten’s wife, notorious for having had many lovers including, allegedly, Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India], and that my conduct reminded him of hers.’

April 27, 1995

I see Fergie again at Sunningdale. She realises she has made mistakes, and even that she is vulgar. ‘But if I am cheerful and noisy, it is not because I am overconfident but because I am insecure.’

She has adjusted to this in the face of hostility from all the Royal Family except the Queen. Her children are the best link she has with the Queen. ‘I have taught them to hug their granny when they see her.

 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7640869/amp/KENNETH-ROSES-secret-diaries-Diana-Prince-Philip-revealed.html I

Edited November 5, 2019 by Ame

[Ame]

And these are less sensational but might have Spoilers for the next two seasons.

May 4, 1986

Edward Ford [Extra Equerry to the Queen, and her former assistant private secretary] tells me that he used to suggest to the Queen that she might publicly heal the breach with the Windsors [Edward and Wallis] by inviting them for a day or two of Ascot races, where they would be swallowed up among the other guests. But the Queen said no.

May 27, 1986

I hear that the Queen found she had an unexpectedly free evening recently and that Philip was away.

So, on the spur of the moment, she decided to give a little dinner party.

‘And wasn’t I lucky?’ she said. ‘I asked about a dozen people at 24 hours’ notice, and by great good fortune they were all free to come!’

November 21, 1988

[Historian] Steven Runciman tells me that when it was decided that Prince Charles should go to Gordonstoun, Princess Marina (later the Duchess of Kent) said to Prince Philip: ‘How like you to send him to the only German school in Britain.’

The Queen Mother, overhearing this, said to Princess Marina: ‘I have always wanted to say that, but didn’t dare.’

Steven adds that it was Princess Marina, not Mountbatten, who was the marriage broker between the Queen and Prince Philip.

February 25, 1992

Prince Eddie [the Duke of Kent] tells me that when Philip Hay was about to become Private Secretary to Princess Marina in 1948, he was asked to see Tommy Lascelles [private secretary to George VI and to Elizabeth II] at the Palace.

Walking down a passage, they passed Anthony Blunt [Surveyor of the King’s Pictures]. When Blunt was out of earshot, Tommy said to Philip: ‘That man is a Soviet spy, you know.’ [Blunt — knighted in 1956 — wasn’t unmasked as a spy by MI5 until 1963. The Queen was informed the following year.

Granted immunity in return for a full confession, he continued as Surveyor of the Queen’s Pictures until 1973. When Mrs Thatcher exposed his treachery six years later to the House of Commons, he was stripped of his knighthood.]

July 27, 1992

Former Prime Ministers and their spouses give a dinner for the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh at Spencer House. There is a large reception beforehand for others, to which I am invited. I speak to both the Queen and the Duke, who talk freely.

The Queen tells me she was much amused by the attempt of Winston Churchill during the war to call a dreadnought HMS Oliver Cromwell. [Former Labour Prime Minister] Jim Callaghan says: ‘I must confess I should have done the same.’

I ask the Queen whether she still has to approve the names of all the new warships. ‘Oh yes,’ she tells me, ‘and New Zealand ships, too. That is not so easy, as they often have Aboriginal names.’

Most fascinatingly of all, the Queen tells me of her diary, which she keeps without fail. ‘And how much do you write, Ma’am?’ I ask, not adding, ‘We diarists!’ She replies: ‘About so much,’ spreading out her hand, from thumb to little finger, i.e. about six inches. ‘But I have no time to record conversations, only events.’ Nor, she says, does she dictate, finding it inhibiting.

July 16, 1982

An extraordinary episode of a man [Michael Fagan] who a few days ago penetrated all the security arrangements at Buckingham Palace and sat on the Queen’s bed for ten minutes, with a bleeding hand and clutching a broken glass ashtray. No novelist would have dared to imagine such a thing.

November 28, 1988

The Queen was talking one day to one of her courtiers about the intruder in her bedroom in 1982 at the Palace. She said: ‘Of course, it was easier for me than it would be for anybody else. I am so used to talking to strangers.’

November 5, 1994

Princess Margaret tells me her maid is the one who found a man in the Queen’s bedroom and exclaimed: ‘Bloody ’ell, what’s going on ’ere?’

I have a talk with Peter Wilmot-Sitwell [chairman of SG Warburg] about the Royal Family. We are agreed that the Queen is good with ministers, ambassadors and representatives of the Commonwealth, but not with her children or indeed many other people.

June 3, 1995

I stay for the weekend with [interior decorator] David and Pamela Hicks. Pammy says that she sometimes writes to the Queen to tell her things of supposed interest.

‘The only time she has ever replied was when I sent my sympathy after one of her dogs had been killed by a Clarence House corgi. She then wrote six pages.’

March 21, 1997

Prince Charles tells me that the head of Wimbledon asked whether he thought the Queen would come to open a new court.

‘I doubt it,’ Prince Philip replied, ‘unless there are dogs and horses.’

June 12, 1998

Long talk with Edward Ford [Extra Equerry to the Queen, and her former assistant private secretary] at dinner. He says Anthony Blunt should undoubtedly have been sacked from the Royal Household when his treason was first known.

June 19, 2001

Dine at Eton. I hear an amusing story about Martin Charteris as Provost. When Prince Philip was coming on a visit, Martin would give boys lessons on how to answer back his rudeness.

September 25, 2006

I see the film The Queen, with Helen Mirren utterly brilliant in the title role. It is the Queen one is watching, in every nuance.

December 7, 2007

Prince Eddie, [the Duke of Kent] describes how the Queen plans the annual family Christmas lunch down to the last detail. The grown-ups are in one big room, the children in another. Towards the end of lunch, the doors are flung open and in rushes the horde

January 29, 2009

I remember Martin Gilliat [the Queen Mother’s private secretary] telling me that the Queen Mother did not like to hear Anthony Blunt disparaged even after he had been exposed by Mrs Thatcher as a Soviet spy.

June 25, 1980

Lunch at the Beefsteak [London men-only club], Edward Ford [Extra Equerry to the Queen, and her former assistant private secretary] tells the story of Winston [Churchill] at Balmoral in the early 1950s. He was awaiting the result of a nuclear test on a new bomb, and said to the Queen: ‘By this time tomorrow, we shall know if it is a pop or a plop.’

February 26, 1981

Martin Charteris [the Queen’s private secretary, later Provost of Eton] to lunch at Claridge’s. [He says] the Queen felt strongly about [former Labour Prime Minister] Harold Wilson’s resignation Honours List, but felt she could not remonstrate with him, much less turn it down.

Instead, Wilson was merely asked whether he really wanted to recommend so many more names than his predecessors had done; and whether they were the names which on reflection he would still wish to put forward. To both questions he replied yes, and there the Queen felt that her right to interfere had ended.

June 5, 1981

[Former Conservative Prime Minister] Ted Heath tells me of one of his visits to Windsor just after [businessman] Arnold Weinstock had won the 200th running of the Derby, so beating the Queen’s horse.

Ted said to the Queen and Prince Philip: ‘Of course, if it had been a sailing race, we should all have hung back so that the Queen could have won it.’

Prince Philip retorted: ‘Like hell you would!’

September 20, 1983

[Former Labour PM] Jim Callaghan shares my delight in the personality of the Queen Mother. At a lunch given by the Queen for heads of Common Market countries, she observed to Jim in a loud voice: ‘I am glad we are in the Common Market. You see, they have so much to learn from us.’

December 6, 1983

Lunch with [former PM] Harold Macmillan. On the Queen, he takes an affectionate but detachedly Whig view. ‘I tried to interest her in politics, but she is only interested in the personalities of politics. I still see her sometimes. She is lonely and apprehensive about the future.’

September 18, 1985

Jean Trumpington to dine. She relates how when she went to take her leave of the Queen as a Baroness-in-Waiting on being promoted to be Under-Secretary in the Department of Health and Social Security, the Queen said of the PM [Mrs Thatcher]: ‘She stays too long and talks too much. She has lived too long among men.’

May 13, 1989

Lunch with the Queen Mother. She expresses strong admiration for Mrs Thatcher’s determination to concede no sovereignty to the EEC.

June 1, 1997

To Headington for tea with [philosopher] Isaiah Berlin. We talk of relations between the Queen and her Prime Ministers.

The Queen is careful never to reveal what she thinks of each, although it is generally known that she and Margaret Thatcher had sharp disagreements on the importance of the Commonwealth. Isaiah now has an important piece of evidence.

Both the Queen and Thatcher came to a gala at Covent Garden, but sat in different parts of the house. In the interval, the Queen let it be known that she did not want to meet Mrs Thatcher — who was sent to an upper room for drinks, as was Isaiah. Thatcher then said she would like to say goodbye to the Queen, a request that was ignored.

April 1,1998

The Queen evidently has much longer audiences with Blair than those in the Thatcher and Major years.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7645549/amp/KENNETH-ROSE-Queen-sent-six-page-letter-death-beloved-corgi.html

[merylinkid]

6 hours ago, Ame said:

The Spencers were given 50 seats for St Paul’s. When Johnnie showed Diana his draft list, she crossed out all the family who had not bothered to come to the weddings of her sisters! One day she will be very formidable.

I like this.   If the family members can't be bothered to come to the less prestigious weddings, they don't get to come to the big one.   Good for her.

4 hours ago, Ame said:

July 16, 1982

An extraordinary episode of a man [Michael Fagan] who a few days ago penetrated all the security arrangements at Buckingham Palace and sat on the Queen’s bed for ten minutes, with a bleeding hand and clutching a broken glass ashtray. No novelist would have dared to imagine such a thing.

I do hope they put this in the show.   That was SUCH a weird time.   And only a little more than a year after the Queen was shot at during the Trooping of the Colour (81 was a bad year, Ronald Reagan shot in March, the Pope shot in April, then shots that were thankfully blanks fired at the Queen).

[Ame]

About Queen mum and Margaret (and Tony)

March 26, 1984

Dine with Princess Margaret, after which she absorbs her usual stiff ration of whisky. She still resents that she was not allowed to share the Queen's History tutorials with [Eton Provost] Sir Henry Marten. 'I was told that it wasn't necessary. I have often reproached Mummy with this.'

May 9, 1984

I have dinner with Tony Snowdon. I have hardly seen him for many years, but it was as if we have been close friends since Eton [Rose taught him there]. 'Hello, Sir,' he begins and repeats the joke throughout the evening.

Tony will never go to any reunion — Eton, Cambridge, etc. He is even shy of sitting at the communal lunch table in the House of Lords. Nor would he ever go alone to a restaurant. When we talk of watches, he shows me his: costing only £7 at Marks & Spencer.

September 23, 1984 I talk with Jock Colville [former PPS to Churchill]. Princess Margaret once said to him: 'The two men who have ruined my life are Tommy Lascelles and Winston Churchill, who would not let me marry Peter Townsend.'

Jock replied: 'I don't know about Tommy, but Winston did not want to repeat the mistake of 1936.' Princess Margaret was not pleased by this.

January 22, 1986

Princess Margaret, pretty and animated, talks of [photographer] Cecil Beaton's jealousy of Tony Snowdon, and his drawling at her at the time of their engagement: 'Thank you, Ma'am, for removing a dangerous rival.'

Princess Margaret continues: 'After we were married, Tony wanted to give up photography. We all thought this was wrong. So Lillibet and I worked on him for a year and eventually succeeded. He returned to photography.'

June 8, 1989

Lunch with Tony Snowdon. He has always had a passion for Marmite, he says. He was once arrested for shoplifting at a Moscow hotel. The detective saw something bulging in his pocket: it was his personal jar of Marmite.

July 20, 1982

Lunch with the Queen Mother at Clarence House. She describes going to see [PM] Ramsay MacDonald at Chequers. 'He took us to see some of the little churches in the neighbourhood. Now darling Mrs Thatcher would never do that! But then she has other great qualities such as PATRIOTISM — that's what we want!'

She says that she thought Dickie Mountbatten [assassinated by the IRA in 1979] was rather a bounder in some ways, [such] as when he drove his speedboat off Cowes and made a dangerous wash. I tell the Queen Mother that although he was most kind to me, I have discovered that not all his stories were accurate.

QM: 'Of course, and there were so many of them!'

December 6, 1983

Lunch with [former PM] Harold Macmillan. He has known the Queen Mother for much of his life. 'But I still do not have the remotest idea of what goes on in her mind.' We laugh over her splendid extravagance and all those footmen when lunching in the garden.

Macmillan: 'That is what happens when a poor woman marries a rich man. But when a rich woman marries a poor man, she makes a good frugal wife.'

April 19, 1984

[Former assistant private secretary to both the Queen and her father] Edward Ford says that George VI's outbursts of temper — or gnashes, as they were called in the family — were probably epileptic.

April 11, 1985 Martin Gilliat to dine. He thinks it wrong that the Duchess of Windsor has never become HRH. 'I hope that before she dies, my employer may come to see the lack of charity in this attitude.' I have never heard him express a stronger opinion. He tells me the Queen Mother never cared for either of the Mountbattens. She felt that Dickie was an outsider vis-à-vis the real Royals, such as Princess Marina, so rarely entertained them.

January 16, 1989

Martin Gilliat tells me of a gaffe made by [author and broadcaster] Ludovic Kennedy when he met the Queen Mother recently at somebody's house. He told her he had been busy the previous weekend writing her obituary.

May 13, 1989

Lunch with the Queen Mother. I say I regret that Philip Ziegler is writing another life of the Duke of Windsor. Queen Mother fervently agrees — 'It has been raked over so often.' She goes on: 'I wonder whether he really liked England. I am certain, however, that he did want to come back as King.'

That is a most important historical statement, and sheds much light on her relationship with the Windsors.

The QM also confides how much she dislikes the pound coin. 'So when I put something in the collection at church, it is always a Scottish banknote.'

July 15, 1989

Pamela Hicks [Mountbatten's daughter] tells me the sense of being Royal or not persists in curious ways. When Dickie Mountbatten once asked the King for a photograph of himself with the Queen Mother, he asked whether it was for Dickie or [his wife] Edwina. If for Dickie, it would be signed 'Bertie and Elizabeth'; if for Edwina, 'George RI and Elizabeth R'.

July 12, 1998

The Queen Mother tells me she is strongly against the lowering of the homosexual age of consent from 18 to 16, which is soon to be debated in Parliament. She has urged the Queen to speak to the PM about it.

May 6, 2000

Lunch at Clarence House, just the Queen Mother, [her lady-in-waiting] Prue Penn and myself. We touch on the ejection of most of the hereditary peers from the Lords: QM makes her feelings all too clear.

May 8, 2001

Prue Penn managed to get hold of [the Queen Mother's steward] William Tallon alone this morning and asked him what exactly had taken place when Princess Margaret descended on Clarence House six or seven years ago to 'tidy up Mummy's sitting room'.

She spent a week going through every drawer, wearing white gloves and stopping only for a picnic lunch, throwing away most of her mother's personal correspondence. She filled no fewer than 30 black bags with the papers, which William thinks were shredded.

Certain letters were not destroyed, mostly family: the King, Queen Mary, the Queen and the Prince and Princess of Wales.

Since this happened, the Queen Mother has no longer kept the letters of her friends, but tears them up when read and answered. What a terrible act of destruction.

March 30, 2002

The Queen Mother died at 3.15 this afternoon with the Queen at her bedside. So ends an epoch of history.

September 17, 2003

The Queen has told [Queen Mother biographer] William Shawcross that she does not want him to write a political book, 'as my mother had no interest in politics'. The QM was in fact deeply interested in politics and firmly Conservative in her views.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7649439/amp/How-Princess-Margaret-secretly-destroyed-thirty-sacks-Queen-Mothers-letters.html

[LilWharveyGal]

These are so interesting!  Thanks @Ame!

[Pallas]

It's not only that the BCC broadcast its interview with the Duke of York on the same date that Netflix dropped season 3 of The Crown. Nor that Stephen Ward and Jeffrey Epstein each committed suicide following his national disgrace and before his sentencing: Epstein's death took place well after season 3 was written and filmed.

To me, though, the S3.E1 discussion between Anthony Blunt and Philip about the Duke's association with Ward -- osteopath, charismatic host to the illustrious and procurer of young women -- is intended to invoke the future Duke of York's association with Epstein: financier, charismatic host to the illustrious and procurer of adolescent girls. Just as the confiscated, shadowy picture of a man who might have been Philip, in the doorway of Ward's flat after a party, prefigures the public photos of Andrew with Epstein in Central Park or in the window of Epstein's New York "party mansion" (taken in 2010 and published by the Daily Mail in 2011).  

I'm not sure where creator Peter Morgan is going with this. Is he equating Elizabeth's helpmeet with her erstwhile favorite son? Or is he contrasting them? Down the road, of course, there will be other public scandals where British intelligence/security is linked to recording and leaking information that directly targeted specific members of the royal family, in themselves. Is Morgan tossing all these stories into one stew called "what is royal highness in the information age"?

[Umbelina]

I decided to google the Aberfan disaster as well.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/aberfan-was-a-man-made-disaster-50-years-on-we-must-remember-thi/

Holy crap, what a disgrace and horror!  That will be an episode I'll certainly watch again once I finish this season.

Video and photos of QEII in Aberfan:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1027280/the-queen-aberfan-the-crown-olivia-coleman-royal-news

[Umbelina]

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oopsie

An interesting article about Princess Alice, and The Crown.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/a29796667/who-is-prince-philip-mother-alice-battenberg/

Several articles were sparked by this episode, so I guess I'm not alone in finally being interested in Philip's family.

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She protected Jews during World War II.

Princess Alice was instrumental in aiding the escape from Greece of several Jews during World War II, when Nazi occupation put their lives in grave danger. She also helped members of the Cohen family hide in her palace and used her deafness to convince Gestapo officers she couldn't understand them and therefore prevented them from entering her property, Associated Press reports. Because of her efforts, the Cohen family are still alive and living in France, as of June 2018. Princess Alice was later bestowed with the title Righteous Among the Nations, Israel's highest honor granted to non-Jewish people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/tragic-heroic-life-prince-philips-20824627

and the journalist in the show

Quote

The outbreak of the Second World War was a new source of difficulty for the Princess as her son Philip was fighting with the British forces, while her sons-in-law were entrenched in the Nazi Party.

In Athens, Princess Andrew was forced to move into the city centre with her sister-in-law and she began working for the Red Cross, organising soup kitchens and travelling to Sweden on the pretext of family visits to gather medical supplies.

Believed to be pro-German by the occupying Axis forces, the Princess built shelters for orphaned and abandoned children.

When asked by a visiting German general, "Is there anything I can do for you?", she replied, "You can take your troops out of my country."

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a29810871/is-john-armstrong-real-the-crown-season-3/

more on the Princess Nun, the show, but also on the reporter

Quote

Per The Times:

There was no “John Armstrong” and even were he to have existed, he would not have written a damning front-page Guardian review of the documentary, not least because the documentary went out on a Saturday and was old news by Monday’s paper. The paper’s TV reviewer, Stanley Reynolds, merely noted that Her Majesty was “a delightful surprise.”

You will not, by now, be flabbergasted to hear that the dying Princess Alice did not give an interview to “John Armstrong” of The Guardian or, so far as I can see from Hugo Vickers’ biography of her, to anyone else.

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/what-happened-to-prince-philips-mother-46888210

The Crown and the tragic Princess

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-11-17/netflix-the-crown-prince-philip-mother/

Quote

In 1930 Princess Alice was diagnosed with schizophrenia and forcibly taken to a Swiss sanatorium, where she was treated by the renowned psychologist Sigmund Freud.

Freud, believing that her reported visions were the results of sexual frustration, recommended a course of treatment involving electro-shock treatment, and X-raying her ovaries to kill off her libido — bringing on early menopause.

The Princess pleaded her sanity, but was kept in the sanatorium for over two years. On her aunt’s time under Freud’s care, Countess Mountbatten later said: “It was rather hushed up… I think my aunt would have suffered very much.”

[Umbelina]

Here's the complex translation of his speech.    It's a bit harder for me to understand Elizabeth's anger after reading it.

.https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speech/speech-hrh-prince-wales-replying-loyal-address-sir-ben-bowen-thomas-president-university

Edited November 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

An interesting article about Princess Alice, and The Crown.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/a29796667/who-is-prince-philip-mother-alice-battenberg/

Several articles were sparked by this episode, so I guess I'm not alone in finally being interested in Philip's family.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/tragic-heroic-life-prince-philips-20824627

and the journalist in the show

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a29810871/is-john-armstrong-real-the-crown-season-3/

more on the Princess Nun, the show, but also on the reporter

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/what-happened-to-prince-philips-mother-46888210

The Crown and the tragic Princess

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-11-17/netflix-the-crown-prince-philip-mother/

I always knew Sigmund Freud was full of shit. Really? All her mental problems were caused by her ovaries and libido? Yeah, that's it genius. What exactly does he claim for the same problems in men? Libido and lack of ovaries? 

Princess Alice really was a fascinating person.. She did so much while also going through so much. PBS aired an episode on her a few years back and I read her biography. Spending so much of her life in asylum and horrifying treatments. What she did during WWII was amazing. She stayed! She helped. She did something. I remember being annoyed in the first episode of the Crown with remarks the Queen Mother made about her to Queen Mary, being a Hun nun (although she really wasn't a nun yet). Ah, she was born at Windsor Castle, a member of the royal family and stayed in Greece to help during WWII. I wish they had shown more of her. 

[swanpride]

Btw...is it just me or is there a pattern of perfectly avoidable disasters which required multiple people being either completely incompetent or looking in the other direction? And which are always followed up by the press doing some sort of song and dance in order to push the responsibility on someone or something else? I mean, there is Aberfan, which required completely ignoring all the warnings and sing that the stuff might sled down eventually, and which was blamed on the rain and unpredictable circumstances when this was completely predictable in reality, there is Hillsborough, where they tried to pin the blame on people without tickets supposedly storming in stadium when it reality, bad crowd control was to blame, there is the King's Cross fire, which is often portrayed as a number of freaky circumstances when in reality, the danger of underground fire was basically ignored by the people responsible, and now more recently Grenfell, where there are apparently now attempts to push the responsibility on the first responders instead, you know, people who thought it was a good idea to use burnable cladding just to save a little bit of money. And there also always seems to be a need to fight for the improvement necessary to prevent a second disaster happening elsewhere.

[Roseanna]

When Elizabeth II visited Finland in 1976, the hosts got an idea to bring her to the forest to show where the paper Britain had bought from Finland orginally comes and have a picnic there. The picture that you can find in the article about The Crown that the daily Helsingin Sanomat published on Sunday, shows that the Queen wasn't pleased. That was no wonder as in the dust-free barn, even her stockings tore. She also sharply refused to put the helmet in her head. However, in the gala dress with President Kekkonen she is obviouly in her element.

https://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/art-2000006311071.html

[7-Zark-7]

I couldn’t believe they didn’t cover the attempted kidnapping of Princess Anne.  I kept waiting for it and nothing. When they showed Princess Anne driving to Buckingham Palace to “Starman”, I thought they were foreshadowing it, but no, still nothing. It happened in ’74 and was certainly dramatic enough, - four people were shot. However, I realized that Captain Mark Phillips was in the car with her and he (and their wedding) wasn’t referenced at all, so maybe it will be handled in flashback in season 4. 

[benteen]

Watching Philip on Meet the Press showed me that Prince Andrew isn't the only one who gives terrible interviews.

[Roseanna]

Many here have labeled Edward VIII/the duke of Windsor a "traitor" and a "Nazi", but I am not sure if the reality was so clear as in the show.

As Prince of Wales Edward had experienced WW1 and, although he himself was forbidden to fight because of his position as the heir, he was deeply influenced by the senseless deaths of millions of soldiers. His reaction was that the war was bad and men of all nations suffered from it and therefore the next war must be avoided - and that opinion was shared by may others.

Also, Edward wasn't "modern" as he presented himself, but born to wealth and priviledges and therefore he was afraid of Communism that could have robbed him of his status, wealth and even his life. As many in the same position, he saw Nazi Germay as the bulwark against Soviet Russia, or at least as lesser evil.

All in all, I don't think, Edward was before Abdication no worse than a supporter of the appesement policy - just as most British were, as is shown the welcome Chamberlain got after Munich.

After Abdication the duke of Windsor was deeply wounded that his wife became only Duchess but was refused by his brother George VI the title "Her Royal Highness" and thus the equal rank with him and that the new King, Queen Elizabeth and even his mother Queen Mary also refused to meet his wife He refused to understand his family's POV where upholding the position and honor of the Crown was the most important and how he had hurt it and them by abdicating and all he did after that was caused by this wound that never healed. He probably went to Germany in order to give his wife the taste of being treated as royal. 

The chief point is of course what he did and didn't during the WW2. I am not at all that he could be labeled a "traitor" simply on the basis what the German report him talking in private. It's well known that intelligence agents often understand things in the manner they wish them to be - or even write in their reports what they know that their superiors wish for.

If the duke of Windsor had really decided to become a puppet king under the Nazis, woudn't he had chosen to stay in the Nazi-conquered France?

All in all, isn't it enough deporably that the duke of Windsor was a petty, selfish and self-centered man who put his love for his wife before all else even during the war and that, unlike many of his contemporaries, his opinions about the Nazis remained unchanged even during and after the war.

[PeterPirate]

Here is the first part of an excellent 5-part series on the history of Wales.  

Edited November 19, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Ohiopirate02]

27 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Many here have labeled Edward VIII/the duke of Windsor a "traitor" and a "Nazi", but I am not sure if the reality was so clear as in the show.

As Prince of Wales Edward had experienced WW1 and, although he himself was forbidden to fight because of his position as the heir, he was deeply influenced by the senseless deaths of millions of soldiers. His reaction was that the war was bad and men of all nations suffered from it and therefore the next war must be avoided - and that opinion was shared by may others.

Also, Edward wasn't "modern" as he presented himself, but born to wealth and priviledges and therefore he was afraid of Communism that could have robbed him of his status, wealth and even his life. As many in the same position, he saw Nazi Germay as the bulwark against Soviet Russia, or at least as lesser evil.

All in all, I don't think, Edward was before Abdication no worse than a supporter of the appesement policy - just as most British were, as is shown the welcome Chamberlain got after Munich.

After Abdication the duke of Windsor was deeply wounded that his wife became only Duchess but was refused by his brother George VI the title "Her Royal Highness" and thus the equal rank with him and that the new King, Queen Elizabeth and even his mother Queen Mary also refused to meet his wife He refused to understand his family's POV where upholding the position and honor of the Crown was the most important and how he had hurt it and them by abdicating and all he did after that was caused by this wound that never healed. He probably went to Germany in order to give his wife the taste of being treated as royal. 

The chief point is of course what he did and didn't during the WW2. I am not at all that he could be labeled a "traitor" simply on the basis what the German report him talking in private. It's well known that intelligence agents often understand things in the manner they wish them to be - or even write in their reports what they know that their superiors wish for.

If the duke of Windsor had really decided to become a puppet king under the Nazis, woudn't he had chosen to stay in the Nazi-conquered France?

All in all, isn't it enough deporably that the duke of Windsor was a petty, selfish and self-centered man who put his love for his wife before all else even during the war and that, unlike many of his contemporaries, his opinions about the Nazis remained unchanged even during and after the war.

I agree with a lot of this.  Now that we know of the atrocities the Nazis perpetrated, we tend to forget that in the 1930s the Soviet Union was the enemy.  Millions of people were being killed by the Soviets from the Holodomor to work camps in Siberia to flat out executions.  

I don't think that David would have advocated for Britain to stay out of the fight with Germany after Germany went west into the Netherlands, Belgium and France.  

[PeterPirate]

David was heard blaming the Jews for the war, after the war.  

Edited November 19, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Plus, they are most likely unionists. That they are not keen on the Royals doesn't mean that they are also enthusiastic over the notion of Welsh going their own way. They were most likely looking for a gesture to bind Wales closer to the UK, not for giving up power.

Moving this over here since the show has not dealt with Northern Ireland yet.  

I can see where the cabinet is keen on tamping down on Welsh nationalists and using Charles to do this.  Northern Ireland is succumbing to sectarian violence while the events of this episode unfolded.  I can see where the cabinet and the Royal Family would want to appease the Welsh as it were so they don't have another situation closer to home.  

[Umbelina]

Is Princess Anne Our Favorite Now?

A bit about The Crown and Erin Doherty, but more about her remarkable life, and her kidnapping, which the show, inexplicable chose to omit.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

David was heard blaming the Jews for the war, after the war.  

He was evidently one of those persons who never learn anything nor can weigh right and wrong nor feel empathy towards others. That shows stupidity and lack of emathy and morals. They are serious character defaults but not crimes.

Is there any evidence that he did something for which he could have tried for treason in the court of law?

[Arynm]

I am really hoping the start Season 4 with Princess Anne's marriage and then the kidnapping. It would be a shame not to show either one of those. It is not too far out of the timeline now I don't think.

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

He was evidently one of those persons who never learn anything nor can weigh right and wrong nor feel empathy towards others. That shows stupidity and lack of emathy and morals. They are serious character defaults but not crimes.

Is there any evidence that he did something for which he could have tried for treason in the court of law?

Well, according to the show, and several YouTubes I've watched?  Most definitely.  From betraying the fact that France had the German invasion plan, to his plan to depose the King, and most certainly his instructions to German leaders to continue to bomb England, because that would make England cave.  There is much more information about this available, but all of that was on the show.

It was hidden for so long (and the Marburg files I eventually found on line are STILL heavily redacted) to save the monarchy.  Period. Had it been exposed, the cries to abolish it would have been longer and louder.

He most definitely agree with Hitler about the Jews, he made more than one comment after the war showing his antisemitism.  Did he agree with their extermination?  Who knows, he certainly showed no remorse about it.  Ever.  His wife shared similar views.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[PeterPirate]

With regards to HBC playing Margaret, I wonder if we'll see HBC-Margaret deliberately start the fire in Windsor Castle in another cri de coeur.  

(In a scene from an episode in season 2, I noted that Margaret was careless about smoking around bales of hay, and speculated that she might accidentally set the fire.)

Edited November 19, 2019 by PeterPirate

[andromeda331]

I'm asking in this thread in the Bubbikins that Alice's husband was the one who put her in the asylum, but wasn't it her mother Victoria, who put in her in the asylum? I'll have to find my biography on Alice because I could have sworn it was her and not Andrew. She was the one who took control deciding Alice needed to help and to be put in one. Then decided to married off Alice's daughters and made arrangements for Philip's education. Andrew doesn't seem to have done anything after they settled in France and seemed to take his wife in an asylum as a sign that he didn't have do anything else as a husband or father. He had nothing to do with wife or children, Philip's upbringing choosing to spend his days with his mistress in the South of France. I think Philip visited him a couple times but that was it. His upbringing and everything else was handled by his grandmother and later Dickie. 

[Pallas]

Yes, it was Alice's mother, Victoria of Hesse, who twice had her committed involuntarily in the early 1930's. Alice and her husband had already separated and Alice had become a deeply devout Greek Orthodox Christian. She was subject to religious visions. "She has visions of Christ," her mother wrote, "and is told she will soon have a message to deliver to the world."

At the time and for decades, such delusions were often interpreted as symptoms of schizophrenia. Today they would more likely be seen as aspects of a manic episode or a singular psychotic break. They might also considered in their own light.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Pallas

[xtwheeler]

On 11/19/2019 at 8:07 AM, PeterPirate said:

David was heard blaming the Jews for the war, after the war.  

On 11/19/2019 at 1:04 PM, Roseanna said:

He was evidently one of those persons who never learn anything nor can weigh right and wrong nor feel empathy towards others. That shows stupidity and lack of emathy and morals. They are serious character defaults but not crimes.

Is there any evidence that he did something for which he could have tried for treason in the court of law?

I'm currently reading "The Princes go to War" (pretty sure that's the title). Duke of Windsor, Gloucester, Kent, and York.

The Windsor exiles were happy to visit with Hitler and tour a concentration camp. The author makes the case that there were communications between DoW and the Nazis that if he provided strategic information on how to break Britain, the Nazi's would install him as King after Britain was defeated.  He apparently gave him some vague advice about the British people, but MAN does it ride close to the line of treason.

[PeterPirate]

A short historical video about British soldiers from Wales, narrated by a famous actor from Wales.  (It's the audio of the last couple minutes from Zulu, with the pictures of the actual soldiers.)

Edited November 21, 2019 by PeterPirate

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, it was Alice's mother, Victoria of Hesse, who twice had her committed involuntarily in the early 1930's. Alice and her husband had already separated and Alice had become a deeply devout Greek Orthodox Christian. She was subject to religious visions. "She has visions of Christ," her mother wrote, "and is told she will soon have a message to deliver to the world."

At the time and for decades, such delusions were often interpreted as symptoms of schizophrenia. Today they would more likely be seen as aspects of a manic episode or a singular psychotic break. They might also considered in their own light.

Thank you. I thought so. Andrew seems to have bailed on the family completely after they left Greece. Victoria of Hesse ended up having to decide what to do with Alice and her children. Since the girls were old enough she married them off. But Philip was still so young that she made arrangements for his schooling. On breaks from school he stayed with her or other family. Except for a couple trips never with his father. 

Poor Alice. There was so little understanding of mental problems. That there could be different ones. Its not really until the last few decades that mental problems have been taking more seriously. And as we can see with the expert Sigmund Freud chalked it up to basically "lady problems". It must be ovaries! And an over active libido. Yeah, that's it Genius. Way to reduce real mental problems down to women are hysterical you quack. It is interesting though. Her faith really seems to be what helped her. She probably had to figure out on her own what worked best to help with her mental problem. She still manage to do so much during WWII and found nursing nun order.

[merylinkid]

A little lighter subject.   I can't remember the episode (this is why I don't really binge watch), but I think it was Margaretolgy where Prince Philip is talking to the Queen about how great she is at her job.   Yes, they were all dull as ditchwater, but Philip makes the point that they do their duty and do it well.   He also says something about how wonderful he thinks she is.  

THAT is why they have been married for 72 years, despite Philip feeling useless at times.   Despite all the pressures.   As the family and close friends (not unnamed palace sources) have commented he is her rock.   She really is a quite reserved woman, he helps her relax and get through it.  

Also I cracked up at "Not me, I'm darling or cabbage, sweets is someone else."   

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

She really is a quite reserved woman,

From what I've read, it's in public that she's reserved; in private, she's supposed to be quite open and funny.

[anna0852]

12 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

I'm currently reading "The Princes go to War" (pretty sure that's the title). Duke of Windsor, Gloucester, Kent, and York.

The Windsor exiles were happy to visit with Hitler and tour a concentration camp. The author makes the case that there were communications between DoW and the Nazis that if he provided strategic information on how to break Britain, the Nazi's would install him as King after Britain was defeated.  He apparently gave him some vague advice about the British people, but MAN does it ride close to the line of treason.

It's "Princes at War" and it's fabulous!

[dubbel zout]

Britain is fighting for its very survival and all David can do is whine that Wallis isn't an HRH.

[Gareth3]

I've figured out what the last episode of this show is. It's Prince Edward's marriage to Sophie Rhys-Jones in 1999. It happened 20 years ago, so there's enough intervening time for fictionalization. (Sorry John Goodman, but you won't be cast for a Prince Andrew-Epstein episode, that's too recent.) It's a natural end point, the last child of the Queen to marry. It's also a happy ending after all the marital chaos of the 1990s. The ceremony is deliberately modest, and results in the only stable marriage in the family since... well, the marriage that happened in the first episode. Also provides more Welsh content.

[Umbelina]

If you have Netflix, this documentary has a ton of old home movies of the royal family, public and private. https://www.netflix.com/watch/80131167?trackId=14170035&tctx=3%2C3%2Cd9ee2395-5e01-4524-8fb0-605827d77bd5-407114979%2Cccab9ea7-bcd8-49e9-ad4e-94d8f6ced651_3701669X19XX1574715609577%2Cccab9ea7-bcd8-49e9-ad4e-94d8f6ced651_ROOT

Elizabeth at 90, a Family Tribute

[Constantinople]

On 11/24/2019 at 3:02 PM, Gareth3 said:

I've figured out what the last episode of this show is. It's Prince Edward's marriage to Sophie Rhys-Jones in 1999. It happened 20 years ago, so there's enough intervening time for fictionalization. (Sorry John Goodman, but you won't be cast for a Prince Andrew-Epstein episode, that's too recent.) It's a natural end point, the last child of the Queen to marry. It's also a happy ending after all the marital chaos of the 1990s. The ceremony is deliberately modest, and results in the only stable marriage in the family since... well, the marriage that happened in the first episode. Also provides more Welsh content.

The first 3 seasons covered the 30 years from Elizabeth's marriage in 1947 to 1977.  If that pace continues, it would only take 2 more seasons to get to 1999 and I thought organized the seasons in pairs 1/2 (Foy/What his name), 3/4 (Colman/Menzies), etc.

Also, that would mean leaving out Charles & Camilla's marriage, Kate Middleton, etc.

[Roseanna]

The duke of Windsor thought that his family treated him and, most of all Wallis, badly and never tried to understand their POV.

His mother, Queen Mary, had always put duty first and she couldn't regard abdication as anything of utter shame. She refused to meet Wallis until her death.

George VI loved and admired his brother and never wanted to be King and his wife was worried how he, shy and stammering, could manage it.

She was already in bad terms with Wallis. She had refused to greet her in Balmoral where she acted as a hostess and she had ridiculed her sugary manners without mercy.

George VI had to compensate his brother for his private proparty inherited by their father, f.ex. Sandringham and Balmoral that could only belong to King. In these negotations Edward had lied about how much money he already as the Prince of Wales had collected from his duchy of Cornwall and sent abroad for Wallis even before there was any talk of abdication. When that lie was revealed, he wasn't naturally trusted in other matters, either.

George VI decided that Wallis wouldn't get title of HRH. To his mind, if she wasn't fit to become Queen, she wasn't fit to royal, either. Plus, he wasn't the only one who couldn't believe that marriage would last and what would happen to her after divorce?

The duke and duchess were forced to live abroad not only because it's a custom for ex-king but it was also feared that he would use his charm and popularity to undermine the positition of the new King. 

And finally, the Queen Mother accused abdication shortening his husband's life, forgetting his constant smoking. Of course it may be that stress made him smoke more.     

[kwnyc]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

And finally, the Queen Mother accused abdication shortening his husband's life, forgetting his constant smoking. Of course it may be that stress made him smoke more.     

You wonder if all that smoking shortened the lives of what seems to be a very hardy stock: Queen Mary lived to over 100, and Elizabeth is in her 90s. (She made Philip stop smoking, didn't she?) 

[Constantinople]

From The Observer, shortly after the Queen Mother died

Some documents from the period have already entered the public domain, giving an indication of the royal couple's views. In the spring of 1939 George VI instructed his private secretary to write to Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax. Having learnt that 'a number of Jewish refugees from different countries were surreptitiously getting into Palestine', the King was 'glad to think that steps are being taken to prevent these people leaving their country of origin.' Halifax's office telegraphed Britain's ambassador in Berlin asking him to encourage the German government 'to check the unauthorised emigration' of Jews.

Cambridge University's library still holds correspondence between members of the royal household and Tory Minister Sir Samuel Hoare, a leading appeaser. Key documents remain 'unavailable'.

In 2000 the Bodleian Library at Oxford University published papers lodged with it by the family of Lord Monckton, lawyer to the Prince of Wales. One cache, 'Box 24', was kept private. A civil servant briefed on the contents of Box 24 claimed it included evidence of the Queen Mother's pro-appeasement sympathies.

Guardian: MPs want quick release of Queen Mother's papers

[Gareth3]

15 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The first 3 seasons covered the 30 years from Elizabeth's marriage in 1947 to 1977.  If that pace continues, it would only take 2 more seasons to get to 1999 and I thought organized the seasons in pairs 1/2 (Foy/What his name), 3/4 (Colman/Menzies), etc.

Also, that would mean leaving out Charles & Camilla's marriage, Kate Middleton, etc.

The plan is six seasons, two with Foy, two with Coleman, two with someone else. 1977 to 1999 is so packed with drama you could easily spend three seasons on it. As for more recent events like William's wedding, Peter Morgan has addressed that in a podcast. He say if the event is too recent, covering it is "journalism". Not that he has anything against journalism, it's just not what this show is about.

[merylinkid]

"Princess Alice is buried in the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem. The church also houses the remains of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna of Russia, who was Alice's aunt and Phillip's great aunt. (Phillip's grandmother, Princess Victoria, was the elder sister of Elizabeth ["Ella"] and the Empress Alexandra ["Alix"] Feodorovna of Russia. That's how closely Phillip is tied to the Romanovs.)

Like Alexandra, Elizabeth died in the Russian Revolution, murdered by the Bolsheviks.

Note: Phillip is closely tied to the Romanovs in another way. His father, Prince Andrew, was a first cousin to Nicholas II of Russia by virtue of Andrew's father, George I of Greece, and Nicholas' mother, Marie Feodorovna of Russia, being brother and sister."

I moved this over from the Bubbikins ep thread, sorry I didn't quote it correctly (technology sometimes confuses me).

A little more on Philip and the Romanovs.    When they finally located the bodies of the Russian Royal Family, DNA testing was needed to prove they had found them.    The closest relative for testing was Prince Philip.   He gave a small sample, and the DNA testing was done.    I believe he was also tested to disprove Anna Anderson was the missing Anastasia (obviously done before the bodies were found).   There was a small skin sample from a medical procedure she had and when DNA testing became possible it was tested.   Not even close.

[Constantinople]

For anyone interested, Lady Ann Tennant has written a memoir
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/24/lady-in-waiting-anne-glenconner-review

Lady Anne is the friend and lady-in-waiting to Margaret who introduces Margaret to Roddy Llewellyn, invites her to Mustique, etc.

[Umbelina]

[Ohiopirate02]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's a hoot.  I love old people when the filter is gone and they really don't care anymore.  They always have the best stories.

[Umbelina]

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, merylinkid said:

"Princess Alice is buried in the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem. The church also houses the remains of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna of Russia, who was Alice's aunt and Phillip's great aunt. (Phillip's grandmother, Princess Victoria, was the elder sister of Elizabeth ["Ella"] and the Empress Alexandra ["Alix"] Feodorovna of Russia. That's how closely Phillip is tied to the Romanovs.)

Like Alexandra, Elizabeth died in the Russian Revolution, murdered by the Bolsheviks.

Note: Phillip is closely tied to the Romanovs in another way. His father, Prince Andrew, was a first cousin to Nicholas II of Russia by virtue of Andrew's father, George I of Greece, and Nicholas' mother, Marie Feodorovna of Russia, being brother and sister."

I moved this over from the Bubbikins ep thread, sorry I didn't quote it correctly (technology sometimes confuses me).

A little more on Philip and the Romanovs.    When they finally located the bodies of the Russian Royal Family, DNA testing was needed to prove they had found them.    The closest relative for testing was Prince Philip.   He gave a small sample, and the DNA testing was done.    I believe he was also tested to disprove Anna Anderson was the missing Anastasia (obviously done before the bodies were found).   There was a small skin sample from a medical procedure she had and when DNA testing became possible it was tested.   Not even close.

I remember that. Yes, Philip was asked if he'd give his DNA to finally find out if Anna Anderson was Anastasia and he did. It came back negative. They came back again asking when the bodies were finally to make sure they really were the bodies were found. Again he agreed and they were able to positively identify the remains. It was really cool.

Edited November 28, 2019 by andromeda331

[xtwheeler]

On 11/26/2019 at 7:33 AM, kwnyc said:

You wonder if all that smoking shortened the lives of what seems to be a very hardy stock: Queen Mary lived to over 100, and Elizabeth is in her 90s. (She made Philip stop smoking, didn't she?) 

Margaret was a heavy smoker and she died at 71 (I think?) from lung cancer. Her mum died the same year, and our Lilibet continues at 93.

On 11/21/2019 at 8:51 AM, anna0852 said:

It's "Princes at War" and it's fabulous!

Thank  you for the correction! I've been hacking at it so long you'd think i'd know!

15 hours ago, merylinkid said:

A little more on Philip and the Romanovs.    When they finally located the bodies of the Russian Royal Family, DNA testing was needed to prove they had found them.    The closest relative for testing was Prince Philip.   He gave a small sample, and the DNA testing was done.    I believe he was also tested to disprove Anna Anderson was the missing Anastasia (obviously done before the bodies were found).   There was a small skin sample from a medical procedure she had and when DNA testing became possible it was tested.   Not even close.

For a real "YIKES" moment, google "king george romanovs" -- they were first cousins (through Queen Victoria, Grandmother of Europe, of course) and they look like twins in some pictures. They were said to be very close. They were about a day or two from escaping Russia to take shelter in London with the BRF, There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether the BRF withdrew their offer of refuge to the King's first cousin, or the Russians scuttled it somehow.

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, xtwheeler said:

Margaret was a heavy smoker and she died at 71 (I think?) from lung cancer. Her mum died the same year, and our Lilibet continues at 93.

Thank  you for the correction! I've been hacking at it so long you'd think i'd know!

For a real "YIKES" moment, google "king george romanovs" -- they were first cousins (through Queen Victoria, Grandmother of Europe, of course) and they look like twins in some pictures. They were said to be very close. They were about a day or two from escaping Russia to take shelter in London with the BRF, There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether the BRF withdrew their offer of refuge to the King's first cousin, or the Russians scuttled it somehow.

George V gave the offer originally to offer refuge for Nicholas and his family, but then he changed his mind and he was the one who insisted that Britain withdraw their offer which they did. With monarchies falling all over the place and things tense at home he was worried that allowing the ex-Tsar and his family refuge would make things worse.

[PeterPirate]

On 10/25/2019 at 2:20 AM, Umbelina said:

I also watched Edward on Edward (son of QEII on uncle of same) who insists that Edward was completely innocent, which is honestly very odd.  Anyway, this one brought me up short a bit since I heard Lascelles words but from a different voice.

Edward on Edward is a decent , very pro-David video, but even that one reports that David had a penchant for speaking German to Jewish dinner companions.  

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I remember that. Yes, Philip was asked if he'd give his DNA to finally find out if Anna Anderson was Anastasia and he did. It came back negative. They came back again asking when the bodies were finally to make sure they really were the bodies were found. Again he agreed and they were able to positively identify the remains. It was really cool.

Assuming they keep to the rate of about 10 years per season, this will take place in season 5.  And I'll bet that Show Phillip will refuse to give his DNA, and it will be up to Show Elizabeth to surreptitiously obtain a sample using a Q-Tip.  

Edited November 28, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Ellaria]

Hope this is the right place for this link:

Queen Elizabeth may soon retire to hand ‘reigns’ to Prince Charles