S12.E04: American Nightmare

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

I say all this because so many tend to summarize storylines through their own perception and then later state it as fact.  

Perception is everything.  And Sam didn't actually have to say "suck it up" for the message to be there.  Obviously, we will all interpret things differently, as evidenced by the posts in this thread.  I have an issue with how Dean's feelings were handled in this episode and others did not.  Such is life.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Perception is everything.  And Sam didn't actually have to say "suck it up" for the message to be there.  Obviously, we will all interpret things differently, as evidenced by the posts in this thread.  I have an issue with how Dean's feelings were handled in this episode and others did not.  Such is life.

Your right it's about perception but honestly, I think it's a massive stretch to have Sam's two sentence gentle defense of Mary turn into an implied "suck it up" statement.

I'll just agree to disagree on this one.  I'm usually pretty good at accepting all POV's but this one is not remotely working for me. 

[catrox14]

Dean being eager to shoot a witch was the sign that Dean was ready to blow? Or that Dean was worried and unhappy?

Dean is a hunter who loathes witches. He always has. He thinks they are horrible and gross. He tolerates Rowena's existence but he sure doesn't like her.  But Dean also wasn't going to shoot her without getting more information.   If that was the tipping point...it was lost on me. 

But that does remind me of what Sam said last week that really didn't sit right with me.

Quote

Look, I'm happy, too, Dean. I am. I'm overjoyed. But...there's something about her. I mean, something's going on with her.

Yeah, she's adjusting.

No, she's struggling. I mean, she's trying to bury herself in hunting to avoid dealing.

And how do you know that?

Years of personal experience.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=29330

I'm not really comfortable with this narrative they set up.  Why can't it be that for Dean, hunting is a HEALTHY coping mechanism. He's focused on a case, acting with purpose, moving forward. Why is hunting now being framed in this way and carried through into this episode, with Sam is presuming that  Dean being eager to kill a witch is being fueled by his negative emotions rather than Dean just being eager to kill a witch because he's a hunter and it's his job. Yes obviously most hunters get into the life because of some horrible thing, but by this time in Dean's life, he identifies as a hunter. It is who is he is.  His life was born of a horrible thing, but it's also what he loves to do and he believes he is making the world a better place through hunting.   

It's coming across to me that if Dean is hopped up to kill a monster/demon/witch it can't be trusted because he might be doing it for some unresolved emotional reasons. I'm not really comfortable or keen on this becoming a thing.  I dunno I have to noodle on this but making me go rurhhhrrr .

Edited November 5, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Just as an aside, in the scene where Sam and Dean are discussing Lucifer's whereabouts, did they have Jensen standing in a ditch?  Since when is he almost a foot shorter than Sam?  It was a really bizarre angle.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just as an aside, in the scene where Sam and Dean are discussing Lucifer's whereabouts, did they have Jensen standing in a ditch?  Since when is he almost a foot shorter than Sam?  It was a really bizarre angle.

Basically yes.  Look at the angle of the car dash.  The road slopes towards the curb (Dean's side)

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not really comfortable with this narrative they set up.  Why can't it be that for Dean, hunting is a HEALTHY coping mechanism. He's focused on a case, acting with purpose, moving forward.

I assumed Sam was talking about himself there with the "years of personal experience" not necessarily Dean. It is what Sam did in season 2 to avoid dealing with his guilt about John. It's what he did in season 4 to an extent and in season 3 during "Mystery Spot" and in season 7 to help him deal with his hallucinations. So Sam can relate. I thought that Sam was explaining that, because he doesn't necessarily think that Dean looks at hunting that way, but sometimes he (Sam) does, so he recognizes the "symptoms."

And even within that framework, we've seen Sam also have a healthy attitude concerning hunting many times before too, so I'm not sure that the show would be giving a broad message of hunting = bad coping mechanism all the time. However, Sam being well aware of using hunting in that way - as a maybe not so good coping mechanism - he might also be well versed in being able to tell the difference between hunting for the right reasons and hunting for the wrong reasons.

And from the dialogue @SueB quoted above, I would say the more troubling thing was Dean insisting that Mary bailed on them and that she "obviously had zero interest in keeping the family together." Ouch and Sam knows where that kind of thinking leads, having been at the wrong end of that before himself, especially from John... which partially succeeded in being a self-fulfilling kind of thing.

I think that Dean's feeling are definitely understandable and he has every right to have them, but it might also be a good idea to consider where they might eventually lead, which I think ended up being the case here. (In that Dean did realize.)

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, SueB said:

At no time did Sam remotely imply Dean should just "suck it up".  Defending Mary from Dean's attacks (and Dean WAS attacking) is not saying Dean didn't have valid feelings.

Wait what?  What did Dean do or say that was an attack on Mary?

[AwesomO4000]

I'm not @SueB, but I thought that the dialogue she quoted above from Dean was fairly harsh, especially the "she obviously has zero interest in keeping this family together" part. And when Sam suggested that time apart sometimes might help a family, Dean saying "Yeah, who? The Mansons?" seemed to suggest that maybe Mary was somewhat crazy for wanting some space to get her head on straight and/or seeing that as maybe something healthier later on down the line. Which ouch.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Those words in bold are pretty bitter and an attack on Mary. And Sam doesn't chastise him for it.  He just asks Dean to try and see Mary's perspective.

Okay I see that.  I don't see how that is an ATTACK on Mary.  Those are Dean's legitimate fears and worries and thoughts. He might be totally wrong but to call them an attack on Mary is too harsh and IMO is pretty dismissive of Dean's fears and worries.  And truly Dean has no guarantee that Mary is ever coming back. 

Thinking back to  Mary said before she left, she basically dismissed them for the men they are now in favor of her little boys.  I get that she's reeling and she misses her Heaven but shit, he sons ARE RIGHT THERE ready and willing to get to know her.  And instead she's all "Sorry you are not what I had in Heaven. 

Quote

No. [ Sighs ] I'm not. I miss John. I miss my boys.

We're right here, Mom.

I know. In my head. But I'm still mourning them as I knew them. My baby Sam. My little boy Dean. Just feels like yesterday, we were together in heaven, and now... I'm here, and John is gone, and they're gone. And every moment I spend with you reminds me every moment I lost with them. And I thought hunting, working, would clear my head. Mom... [ Sighs heavily ] w-what are you trying to say? I have to go. I'm sorry. I'm so...so sorry. I just need a little time.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=29330

I dunno, I think Mary's words are pretty damn harsh and I don't blame either Dean or Sam if they feel rejected and angry. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

, Dean saying "Yeah, who? The Mansons?" seemed to suggest that maybe Mary was somewhat crazy for wanting some space to get her head on straight and/or seeing that as maybe something healthier later on down the line. Which ouch.

I didn't take it that way. I took as Dean being hyperbolic,  not that he thinks people who want time away are crazy or will end up in a creepy murder family.  That line didn't make any sense coming out of Dean's mouth for any reason. Canonically Dean said it but IMO that was just another OOC moment for Dean in the episode that was just stupid. I don't think it's foreshadowing anything else.  This first time writer used to write for American Crime on ABC so maybe he's bringing that sensibility to the show, which is why he chose "The Mansons" for some stupid reason that doesn't really even fit with Dean's repertoire of trivia.   But that's just me. Mileage varies. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/3/2016 at 10:07 PM, Jediknight said:

They've definitely set it up that Ketch is the big bad, and compared to him Lady Bevell was nice. 

While Ketchup might be a big bad, I still wouldn't say that Lady TortureVoyeur was nice, even in comparison - not after what she did to Sam.  Dude might have killed the kid, but he did it quickly and fairly humanely.  Lady BetterNotGetChummyWithTheBoysLater tortured her victim both physically and mentally - and I have no doubt she would have killed Sam after she got the information she wanted.  

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It will be nice to watch the boys take down Mr. Ketch later this season.  

And I do hope they get to do it, not Mary or Cas or other HMSS employees trying to clean up their own mess.

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The episode was very heavy on the "Sam is the rational, calm, sensitive one, and Dean just needs to get over himself", and that can be more than a little annoying.

I didn't see this.  Especially when Sam let loose on CrazyMom and Dean was standing calmly and rationally in the doorway.

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

*sigh*  I really, *really* don't want the powers to be resurrected, and TBH, it's not just about not wanting Sam to be "special" or "get better story lines" or anything that will reignite the wars.  It's because I prefer the boys to be heroes as *humans,* not because they have any special abilities.  I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it.  Sorry.

Sorry, Not Sorry.  I completely agree!  I don't want the SpecialSam powers back.  Not at all.  

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I didn't see this.  Especially when Sam let loose on CrazyMom and Dean was standing calmly and rationally in the doorway.

Sam letting loose on Murder!Mom is one reason I wondered if maybe Sam might have been projecting some of his own buried emotions and being so interested in managing and knowing Dean's thoughts and feelings on this situation. It's just such a weird episode that leaves me cold.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just as an aside, in the scene where Sam and Dean are discussing Lucifer's whereabouts, did they have Jensen standing in a ditch?  Since when is he almost a foot shorter than Sam?  It was a really bizarre angle.

I had the same reaction but I think it was the curb and the angle but I will say that for some reason Sam has looked a lot taller than Dean all season and it's weird because it's not the case.  But it does bug me LOL

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay I see that.  I don't see how that is an ATTACK on Mary.  Those are Dean's legitimate fears and worries and thoughts. He might be totally wrong but to call them an attack on Mary is too harsh and IMO is pretty dismissive of Dean's fears and worries.  And truly Dean has no guarantee that Mary is ever coming back. 

Thinking back to  Mary said before she left, she basically dismissed them for the men they are now in favor of her little boys.  I get that she's reeling and she misses her Heaven but shit, he sons ARE RIGHT THERE ready and willing to get to know her.  And instead she's all "Sorry you are not what I had in Heaven. 

I dunno, I think Mary's words are pretty damn harsh and I don't blame either Dean or Sam if they feel rejected and angry. 

While ITA this was Dean's fear and anxiety talking. He was essentially catastrophizing Mary's actions. And I think Sam knew this or he would have been legitimately mad at some of the things Dean was saying.  Instead, IMO, he's trying to talk Dean down a bit and make him see that Mary's actions weren't that extreme.  Sam has made it clear he thinks Mary has had a bit of a freak out and she just needs time.  Dean, in response, is having his own version of a freak out.  But being alone, for Dean, would be the worst thing.  Sam has been down that road before.  Getting Dean to talk a bit, getting them working.  That's what makes Dean alright and Sam knows it.  But, IMO, step 1 is to get Dean to see Mary's actions as not rejecting Dean and their family but more about her own state of mind.  I think he said the right thing.

[Myrelle]

44 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think that Dean's feeling are definitely understandable and he has every right to have them, but it might also be a good idea to consider where they might eventually lead, which I think ended up being the case here. (In that Dean did realize.)

He always realizes this though, and apologizes for it. What might be a better idea(writing-wise, at least) is if these writers might have Sam or Mary(since she IS a mother) realize and understand where and how those feelings originated in Dean and why he still feels them so intensely.

Like I said, wake me up when they give us an episode that explores THAT aspect of Dean's characterization which has been highlighted time and again, but has never been truly explored in depth. It's a huge part of the characterization of Dean that we've been presented with time and time again, but  that none of these writers seem to really want to tackle except in superfluously showing us that he's affected deeply by it. It's past time we've had more on that, IMO, and past time that they put the Dean has to learn to let go lessons to bed. He can only learn that if the writers allow it, FFS.

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

While ITA this was Dean's fear and anxiety talking. He was essentially catastrophizing Mary's actions. And I think Sam knew this or he would have been legitimately mad at some of the things Dean was saying.  Instead, IMO, he's trying to talk Dean down a bit and make him see that Mary's actions weren't that extreme.  Sam has made it clear he thinks Mary has had a bit of a freak out and she just needs time.  Dean, in response, is having his own version of a freak out.  But being alone, for Dean, would be the worst thing.  Sam has been down that road before.

He's been down it before but still doesn't understand it, IMO. If he did he wouldn't use threatening to leave Dean as his ace in the hole as often as he has in the past. How about Sam possible "learning" that, or "being schooled" on that little tidbit in the future. That would be something new and long overdue, IMO.

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

While ITA this was Dean's fear and anxiety talking. He was essentially catastrophizing Mary's actions.

I disagree that Dean was catastrophizing. Mary's adult children who held her close to their hearts and minds for 33 years, were standing in front of her and no matter how gently it was worded she did reject them. Maybe momentarily, maybe not.  She didn't provide much reassurance that she would indeed come back or stay in touch.  "I need some time" doesn't guarantee the outcome that she'll be back or that he'll see her again.

Dean was forced to put a gun in her face because she was possessed and he was terrified he was going to have to shoot her which was literally right before she left.  Given that Hunters lives are fleeting at best IMO Dean has a valid and well placed fear that she could be gone as quickly as she was brought back. I don't see that as catastrophizing things.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

He always realizes this though, and apologizes for it. What might be a better idea(writing-wise, at least) is if these writers might have Sam or Mary(since she IS a mother) realize and understand where and how those feelings originated in Dean and why he still feels them so intensely.

Actually, I disagree that Dean always realizes this kind of thing and apologizes. Two big examples: the deal and Gadreel. Either Dean did not realize all of the ramifications for his feelings and actions there or he didn't apologize or both.

And it's not like the origins of Dean's feelings are not ever explored and acknowledged by other characters. I can think of a few examples off the top of my head: "Something Wicked" where Sam apologizes to Dean for nagging him so much about following John's orders and says he now understands why Dean does what he does now that he knows the story of the Schtriga. And "Dark Side of the Moon" where Sam sees Dean's memory and says he never realized how long Dean had been cleaning up John's messes. Or "Bad Boys" where Sam learns the truth about Dean's stint at the boy's home and learns just how much Dean sacrificed for him and John by returning. Or "A Very Supernatural Christmas" where Sam now realizes all of those things Dean did back then were trying to make things good for Sam and why that was important for Dean, and so returns the favor and gives Dean the Christmas Dean wanted even though it was a bit painful for Sam. And I'm sure that I'm missing some.

I'd like Dean to maybe learn some of the reasons Sam wanted to go to school beyond Dean thinking that Sam just wanted a "better" family.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

He's been down it before but still doesn't understand it, IMO. If he did he wouldn't use threatening to leave Dean as his ace in the hole as often as he has in the past. How about Sam possible "learning" that, or "being schooled" on that little tidbit in the future. That would be something new and long overdue, IMO.

You mean like at the end of season 9 where Sam did "learn his lesson" that Dean was right about how Sam would feel losing him? Or season 10 where (Demon)Dean left Sam and Sam spent months driving himself crazy looking for Dean? That's not exactly new, in my opinion. We just had that and we had Sam being chastised by Lucifer about it and then giving an emotional and humbling apology to Dean about what happened in season 8 in the middle of last season, and while potentially overdue, it did already happen.

I think the show makes sure Sam is aware of the sacrifices that Dean makes for him. What I would like to see is Dean realizing some of the sacrifices Sam makes for Dean. Like Dean finding out about those extra six months with Dean dead and exactly how difficult that was for Sam and how hard he worked to get Dean back during "Mystery Spot" or exactly how wrecked Sam was when he had to watch Dean be killed and taken to hell. Or learn exactly what Sam did to make sure he could be by Dean's side in "The Man Who Knew Too Much," and how hard that was. Now for me, that would be something new and long overdue. Maybe that would show Dean that not everybody wants to leave him and that some people actually went through literal hell to come back to him, and instead of Sam having to learn some kind of lesson (again) about why Dean has these issues, Dean might actually be able to understand and appreciate something Sam has done for him and realize that he does deserve to have people who care about him, because he will actually have seen the proof.

For me, I think it's all a matter of perspective and how different viewers look at it.

But I should probably stop here so as not to get even more off topic. I'd be willing to continue this in the "All Seasons" thread.

(And if moderator thinks this post belongs there, I will understand. Trying to move multiple quotation things to other threads generally works out terrible for me, and half the time I end up losing the whole post, otherwise I would have done it myself. I already lost a bunch of posts over the last few weeks, and it gets very frustrating).

Edited November 5, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I disagree that Dean was catastrophizing. Mary's adult children who held her close to their hearts and minds for 33 years, were standing in front of her and no matter how gently it was worded she did reject them. Maybe momentarily, maybe not.  She didn't provide much reassurance that she would indeed come back or stay in touch.  "I need some time" doesn't guarantee the outcome that she'll be back or that he'll see her again.

This is not saying that this wasn't a painful situation and it *might* become worse.  But the definition of catastrophizing calls it: 

 an irrational thought  believing that something is far worse than it actually is. ... Catastrophizing takes a current situation and gives it a truly negative “spin.”

So here, it appears that Dean was taking the very basic situation of Mary saying "I need some time" and putting it into the situation of:  She doesn't want anything to do with us.  She's going to leave and she's never coming back.  I'm never going to see her again.  She hates me.  And because, as you pointed out, hunters *do* have such dangerous lives, it could continue on to:  She's going to keep hunting and we won't be there to protect her.  She doesn't know the rules now.  She can't even use the internet.  She's going to get killed because we're not there to protect her and it'll all be my fault, because she left, because she doesn't love me and doesn't want anything to do with us... and so on in circles.  

That's catastrophizing.  He was reading all that negative outcome as absolute and not just possible, based on his own fears with no confirmation from anything she actually said or did.  Basically, all Mary was saying was that she needed some time to think.  She didn't say she wasn't coming back, and most likely it wouldn't even occur to her that Dean would automatically assume that she was coming back.  She apparently did have (Dean's or a new) cell phone so they could keep in touch and there was no indication whatsoever that she didn't intend to.  You seem to be reading her actions as simply "rejecting" the boys for whatever reason.  Just understand that others might disagree.    

[ahrtee]

46 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually, I disagree that Dean always realizes this kind of thing and apologizes. Two big examples: the deal and Gadreel. Either Dean did not realize all of the ramifications for his feelings and actions there or he didn't apologize or both.

This is the kind of "he did this/yeah, but he did this first" argument I don't really want to go into here, because for every point you make I (and others) could probably point out the exact opposite, and neither side is right/both sides are right.  As you said, it's just a question of perspective/opinion.  Again, maybe the bitterness thread would be more appropriate.  

But because you brought it up here, I just want to put in--not an explanation or justification for those two examples, but just a possible reason *why* Dean didn't apologize:  

He does not/has not apologized for things that he feels were right OR that he would do again, even if it went against Sam's wishes.  I don't think he would ever apologize for saving Sam's life (which is what those two examples were).  He also never really apologized for killing Amy, only that he was sorry it hurt Sam.  Similarly, he apologized to Sam for the "ramifications" of his deal/its effect on Sam, but he would not apologize for the actual act.  And I'm OK with that.  

46 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think the show makes sure Sam is aware of the sacrifices that Dean makes for him. What I would like to see is Dean realizing some of the sacrifices Sam makes for Dean. Like Dean finding out about those extra six months with Dean dead and exactly how difficult that was for Sam and how hard he worked to get Dean back during "Mystery Spot" or exactly how wrecked Sam was when he had to watch Dean be killed and taken to hell. Or learn exactly what Sam did to make sure he could be by Dean's side in "The Man Who Knew Too Much," and how hard that was. Now for me, that would be something new and long overdue. Maybe that would show Dean that not everybody wants to leave him and that some people actually went through literal hell to come back to him, and instead of Sam having to learn some kind of lesson (again) about why Dean has these issues, Dean might actually be able to understand and appreciate something Sam has done for him and realize that he does deserve to have people who care about him, because he will actually have seen the proof.

I can see your point here, and I would actually love it if someone could sit Dean down and point out how much Sam *did* love him, so maybe he could get over his abandonment issues.  Maybe some kind of "it's a wonderful life" intervention.  But we don't know if any of those things you mentioned were ever discussed off screen.  Remember that Dean never talked about *any* of his "sacrifices" to Sam (and, AFAIK, never considered them sacrifices).  Sam found them out himself in the course of hunts.

So unfortunately, all we have to go on is what was shown on screen; and what I remember *Dean* seeing/taking to heart is all the times Sam sneaked off or stormed off or blamed him or called him bossy or selfish.  (I'm not talking about any of the "big" issues like seasons 4, 6 or 8, which IMO did have extenuating circumstances.)  And if I'm remembering correctly, in almost all cases, Dean just accepted Sam's judgment/anger, and never argued or blamed him (well, except for the beginning of Scarecrow, and he apologized later).  So I can see where Dean *might* still have doubts about Sam's feelings, and might still be afraid that Sam will leave him if he gets angry enough.  I'd say we should petition the writers to make it clearer. I'd have no problem with that.

And look, you've sucked me into that argument I didn't want to get into.  Woops. 

ETA:  I don't know that Sam has had to to "learn some kind of lesson (again) about why Dean has these issues."  I think he knows all too well.  It's just that I don't think he takes them into account most of the time, or is tired of dealing with them, or thinks Dean should be dealing with them in a different way.  Because IMO if he acknowledged the issues and/or knew how best to deal with them, it wouldn't keep coming up as something he had to learn all over again.  But YMMV.

Edited November 5, 2016 by ahrtee
one last thought that I'd forgotten to address earlier.

[mertensia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I disagree that Dean was catastrophizing. Mary's adult children who held her close to their hearts and minds for 33 years, were standing in front of her and no matter how gently it was worded she did reject them. Maybe momentarily, maybe not.  She didn't provide much reassurance that she would indeed come back or stay in touch.  "I need some time" doesn't guarantee the outcome that she'll be back or that he'll see her again.

 

Mary did not reject them. Mary said, in essence, "I am confused beyond belief. My young children are now men. I am alive again. It is 33 years later. It is everything overload and I need time to process. I cannot do that here. Around you. "

People like to bitch that the show doesn't hit a note of reality here or an ounce of real life there but then we get an understandably (in my view) realistically overwhelmed Mary and instead people are wanting her to be instant mom. I don't get that. 

Is Dean hearing it as "I reject you?" Sure. That's who he is. But it isn't what happened.

That said, I liked the episode. But wouldn't the priest have recognized that that was Aramaic?

[AwesomO4000]

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 Because IMO if he acknowledged the issues and/or knew how best to deal with them, it wouldn't keep coming up as something he had to learn all over again.  But YMMV.

No, I actually agree with you here... though for me it's usually a regression - such as the season 8 stuff - that usually brings Sam back there. But it's not just Sam that gets this kind of regression. Sometimes Dean does too. So sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fault of the characters, or just a quick way for the writers to create "tension" that they really shouldn't be using again that causes some of those kinds of problems.

55 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So unfortunately, all we have to go on is what was shown on screen; and what I remember *Dean* seeing/taking to heart is all the times Sam sneaked off or stormed off or blamed him or called him bossy or selfish.

And I guess that's kind of my point. I don't understand why the narrative generally just has Dean see these negatives while the positives happen somewhere offscreen where he never learns about them. It seems kind of odd, considering Sam usually finds out somehow the good things Dean does for him. I don't know why it can't also go the other way. Maybe if we're lucky, this season? And if not Sam - because of... reasons - then maybe with Mary at least?

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

He does not/has not apologized for things that he feels were right OR that he would do again, even if it went against Sam's wishes.  

I see your point here and agree. What I was trying to get across is that I'm not sure that Dean always realizes the consequences to others in the first place. He thinks he's taking the burden just on himself (as with the deal), or imagines the worst, but - again because he doesn't realize how much Sam or others love him - he maybe doesn't realize entirely how badly it will affect them also. I think that was what I was trying to get across. And it often goes back to his abandonment issues.

And it doesn't help that even when Sam has a somewhat legitimate point about something like this, the writers often like to make him get that point across in the worst, most asshaty way possible. The Carver years were the worst for that. Have I mentioned that I'm glad he's gone lately? ; ) Again it often goes back to Dean getting to see the good... and it sticking. Because second half of season 6 through season 7 Sam was pretty sharing with the thanks and compliments and being understanding, it just didn't get to stick (Dean was preoccupied) or stay around (Carver happened).

[Bessie]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

- It's true that Sam didn't explicitly validate Dean's hurt but he didn't berate him for it either. He defended Mary in a pretty gentle way and asked Dean to think about it.  I believe that if Mary was venting about Dean, Sam would defend Dean to Mary.  That's kind of how these conversations often go when you are trying to keep peace. 

Knowing Dean's abandonment issues, I believe Sam made the right move here. If he had reinforced those issues by validating them, I would've been pissed at him. If he'd said something like "I know you're hurt, but blah, blah, blah" I think Dean would've felt patronized and would've been less likely to open up with Sam.  

Actually, I think Sam handled a very difficult situation quite deftly, while not ignoring there is a problem or taking sides.  It reminded me a bit of Dean playing peacekeeper between John and Sam in season one. Just a bit though, because these are two entirely different situations.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Bessie

[Aeryn13]

I highly doubt Mary will get a lesson episode in the vein of "who cares about your resurrection issues, you had like a week of being gone, now admit you were wrong, apologize and act like your sons want you to". Somehow I doubt that would be heralded as wonderful character development.

I believe Mary DID reject them, quite literally so. And her "I need some time" was said so dubiously like she didn`t believe it herself but was trying to say something not so final so nope, I wasn`t confident either that she would be back ever. So thinking that is IMO not dramatizing it but a rather realistic expectation. 

And I find it hilarious (in a bad way) that Dean gets to learn the lesson (joy) of "people need space" when people never apply this to him. Whenever HE needed space, it is always framed as wrong and other people`s reactions are "not now". He gets berated for it or needled to talk or whatnot. And then learns the error of his ways. Actually he should think that people will abandon and reject him and he is not allowed the same because that is reality for him.

The writer can shove his "walk of blame" where the sun doesn`t shine. It`s where the ep came from after all.    

[mertensia]

If Mary did not return that still would not be a rejection; that would be Mary's inability to cope. Every action in the show is not about the boys, nor should it be, even when it affects them.

[Aeryn13]

I completely disagree. Since obviously 30-year-after resurrections aren`t a thing in real life, the only situation that might be comparable is a person meeting their bio-parent only as adults after adoption or so and that parent going "um, nope, sorry, you are not doing it for me". Maybe they can``t cope but I`d still see it as a rejection of the child every single time. Being rejected doesn`t have to be your fault or be about something you did, it means someone else doesn`t want you. For whatever reaons they have. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

Nope. That would be the bio-parent trying to cope and not being able to do so.

[Aeryn13]

You have your opinion, I have mine. They just appear to be diametrically opposed. 

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:07 PM, Jediknight said:

No wonder Lady Bevell was not happy that Mr Ketch was called in.  The guy murdered an innocent girl in cold blood.  I'm guessing Lady Bevell will learn about what Mr Ketch did, get her son out of Britain and help out Sam and Dean,  They've definitely set it up that Ketch is the big bad, and compared to him Lady Bevell was nice.  Oh props to whoever called it about the motorcycle last week being Mr Ketch's.

It seems to me the purpose of the final scene was to show the British MoL MO.  They have a zero tolerance policy.  They  kill any Supernatural or anyone with a Supernatural ability.

I think the open question is how far they go.  Do they just wait for an crime to occur and don't give a second chance with consideration of circumstances?  Or do they kill any Supernatural they come across even if they haven't committed any crime?

I think its fair to assume the BMoL is the big bad and we'll end up seeing a big, big bad, minions, and someone that switches to Sam and Dean's side.

I don't think that Ketch is the big, big bad.  He seems like the attack dog that cleans up the mess.  For the big bad, they will need someone high up that Sam and Dean can defeat definitively enough that it will influence the BMoL to change their ways or to be sent packing across the ocean never to return.  That requires someone that gives orders, not takes them.

I lean more towards Lady Bevell or someone we haven't seen yet as being that person.

Edited November 5, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[mertensia]

I would have loved to have seen the BMoL decide Chuck was supernatural and to send Mr Ketch after him. Or Crowley. Or Amara.

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not @SueB, but I thought that the dialogue she quoted above from Dean was fairly harsh, especially the "she obviously has zero interest in keeping this family together" part. And when Sam suggested that time apart sometimes might help a family, Dean saying "Yeah, who? The Mansons?" seemed to suggest that maybe Mary was somewhat crazy for wanting some space to get her head on straight and/or seeing that as maybe something healthier later on down the line. Which ouch.

I think this is exactly why Dean jumped on the witch-is-the-killer train. She hit his hot-button with her comment about sometimes families need to be split up. That's really why he wanted to shoot her, IMO. And the mom talking about how she let her daughter die, hit Sam's hot-button of a mother abandoning her child for God.

So, just like when Dean ushered out the ME when they probably could've learned something useful from him, Sam got up on his high horse and preached at the woman which got them kicked out of the farm before they learned anything actually useful about the family. And then both of them dug in their heels and stubbornly marched off in their own directions to prove who was right, when neither was right because they hadn't done the job to find out what was going on.

Neither Winchester was handling things well in this episode. To me, the episode really highlighted how much both of them were struggling and it really showed in how they weren't able to work together and do the job properly.

19 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think its fair to assume the BMoL is the big bad and we'll end up seeing a big, big bad, minions, and someone that switches to Sam and Dean's side.

I don't think that Ketch is the big, big bad.  He seems like the attack dog that cleans up the mess.  For the big bad, they will need someone high up that Sam and Dean can defeat definitively enough that it will influence the BMoL to change their ways or to be sent packing across the ocean never to return.  That requires someone that gives orders, not takes them.

I lean more towards Lady Bevell or someone we haven't seen yet as being that person.

I agree, the British MoL are the big bad for the season. I'm thinking Mr. Ketch will eventually switch sides and ally with the Winchesters. If he keeps following them around, I think he'll see how everything isn't as black and white as the main office thinks it is. I, too, think Lady Toni will be the face of the big bad.

19 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think the open question is how far they go.  Do they just wait for an crime to occur and don't give a second chance with consideration of circumstances?  Or do they kill any Supernatural they come across even if they haven't committed any crime?

Judging by what Lady Toni said a couple episodes back, it seems they let don't them commit a crime. If it's supernatural, they capture or kill it. I don't think there's any shades of grey for them. It's a sort of Supernatural Minority Report. ;)

Edited November 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Judging by what Lady Toni said a couple episodes back, it seems they let them commit a crime. If it's supernatural, they capture or kill it. I don't think there's any shades of grey for them.

I wonder if they'll go after Mary. Would she be considered "supernatural" after coming back from the dead?

[mertensia]

5 minutes ago, goldy said:

I wonder if they'll go after Mary. Would she be considered "supernatural" after coming back from the dead?

Yep. So would the boys, for that matter.  I dunno about angels.

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

So, just like when Dean ushered out the ME when they probably could've learned something useful from him, Sam got up on his high horse and preached at the woman which got them kicked out of the farm before they learned anything actually useful about the family. And then both of them dug in their heels and stubbornly marched off in their own directions to prove who was right, when neither was right because they hadn't done the job to find out what was going on.

Neither Winchester was handling things well in this episode. To me, the episode really highlighted how much both of them were struggling and it really showed in how they weren't able to work together and do the job properly.

Bingo.  And well stated.  Sam mishandled the suspect (Crazy Mom).  They rarely vent at someone like that unless something is wrong. It gets in the way of the investigation.  

I think there's a lot of focus on Dean's actions but Sam's bears scrutiny too. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, mertensia said:

Mary did not reject them. Mary said, in essence, "I am confused beyond belief. My young children are now men. I am alive again. It is 33 years later. It is everything overload and I need time to process. I cannot do that here. Around you. "

People like to bitch that the show doesn't hit a note of reality here or an ounce of real life there but then we get an understandably (in my view) realistically overwhelmed Mary and instead people are wanting her to be instant mom. I don't get that.

I think most of us have said we understand perfectly where Mary is coming from, and how overwhelmed she must be feeling about everything.  But that doesn't negate the fact that her children felt rejected by her actions. Yes, they need to give her the space and time she needs, but she also needs to understand the lives they've led without her.  Dean specifically has spent his entire life either avenging her death, or mourning her loss.  So when she tells him that it's 4 year old Dean she really loves, right or wrong, that's devastating to him.  All I want is for someone to acknowledge that what Dean is feeling is legitimate, and he's not a selfish asshole for feeling that way.  He absolutely would have come to terms with it, which he did by reaching out to her.  The show didn't need to minimize his feelings or make them something he needed to get over or apologize for.

[mertensia]

Feeling rejected =/= being rejected.

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

All I want is for someone to acknowledge that what Dean is feeling is legitimate, and he's not a selfish asshole for feeling that way.

But what he's feeling isn't legitimate.  And, I believe the last thing he needs is for someone to agree with him that they are. He is not being abandoned and people around him should not play into his issues here. That doesn't make him a selfish asshole. And maybe in the end, Mary will abandon him, although I would find that shocking. 

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Feeling rejected =/= being rejected.

But we're talking about feelings, so yes, they are valid.  This isn't about persecuting Mary for hurting or rejecting anyone.  I get it that from her perspective, she didn't reject her sons.  I don't care about her perspective at this point.  Dean is as entitled to his perspective as she is.  All 3 parties in this equation have major emotional shit to deal with now that Mary has come back, not just her.  Yes, cut her all the slack you want while she works through her issues, but it's bullshit to say that because what she did wasn't rejection, Dean shouldn't feel rejected.

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think most of us have said we understand perfectly where Mary is coming from, and how overwhelmed she must be feeling about everything.  But that doesn't negate the fact that her children felt rejected by her actions. Yes, they need to give her the space and time she needs, but she also needs to understand the lives they've led without her.  Dean specifically has spent his entire life either avenging her death, or mourning her loss.  So when she tells him that it's 4 year old Dean she really loves, right or wrong, that's devastating to him.  All I want is for someone to acknowledge that what Dean is feeling is legitimate, and he's not a selfish asshole for feeling that way.  He absolutely would have come to terms with it, which he did by reaching out to her.  The show didn't need to minimize his feelings or make them something he needed to get over or apologize for.

He wasn't asked to apologize for his feelings.  He was being rough with everyone and Sam did a 'check in' to let him know he was being pretty crabby.  First to open up dialog and second to give a fairly low key push back). Sam didn't demand an apology or act really offended.  But when your in pain and take it out on others, should people just 'take it'?  IMO, you cut them some slack but let them know (after multiple times) what they are doing. 

Threatening to shoot the witch didn't bother me, not stopping for a pee break on a long road trip?  Well that's just uncalled for. (J/K... slightly, after birthing two babies I can't go more than a few hours).  

[mertensia]

I don't need a Dean so coddled that he turns into a Vewy Pwecious Snowflake. He needs to work through this himself, with some well-said comments from Sam, not wait for Mary to come back, kiss his boo-boo and make it all better.

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

All I want is for someone to acknowledge that what Dean is feeling is legitimate, and he's not a selfish asshole for feeling that way.  He absolutely would have come to terms with it, which he did by reaching out to her.  The show didn't need to minimize his feelings or make them something he needed to get over or apologize for.

I think the show, in no way, minimized Dean's feelings or made them invalid. Dean didn't apologize for feeling the way he did about Mary, he apologized for acting the way he did because of those feelings. Dean said he was working through his issues on this and he'd try not to start a fight with everyone while doing that. That's all the validation I need here.

Edited November 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't need a Dean so coddled that he turns into a Vewy Pwecious Snowflake. He needs to work through this himself, with some well-said comments from Sam, not wait for Mary to come back, kiss his boo-boo and make it all better.

Oh, no worries, that`s never gonna happen on this show. It`s DEAN`s job to get over himself and kiss other`s boo-boos to make them feel better and soothe their valid feelings of snowflake-dom. 

[rue721]

So the only one out of that whole family who survived was the mom?! That sucks.

I actually wanted to know more about the brother. He seemed like a nice kid. And wow, how crazy to be complicit in the imprisonment and torture of your own sister. And then he jumped in front of her to save her from their mom? Crazy.

Anyway, I thought it was a pretty good episode, especially considering it's a new writer. The tone still felt right for Supernatural, and I actually really liked Sam and Dean in the whole thing. I didn't think they were really being jerks?

I mean, Dean went off at the Wiccan half cocked because she kind of described her job as splitting families apart, and that upset him, which was hotheaded. And he seemed monumentally creepy when he cornered her in her office with his gun drawn. But it seemed clear to me that he just wasn't really thinking straight because he was upset. I didn't think that there needed to be more explanation of what he was feeling, and I didn't think he was being villified or made to look pathetic or anything.

Well, except for that terrible climb over the gate. That was pretty pathetic ;) I mean, I laughed, because I always laugh at pratfalls. Slapstick is pretty funny to me, what can I say. But that was a little too goofy! I also think the joke would have worked better if Dean had done some really elaborate and badass/awesome maneuver to get over the gate, and thought he looked really slick when he landed on the other side...and then Sam just walked around it. Anyway!

I think that Ketch cornering Magda in the restroom and then shooting her was actually meant to be pretty similar to Dean cornering the Wiccan lady -- but whereas Dean actually talked to the Wiccan lady and realized she was harmless/nice, and put away his gun and (apparently) chatted her up instead of killing her, Ketch just went in there and murdered poor Magda, no questions asked. That the scene of Dean apologizing for being a jerk was right before the scene of Ketch killing her ruthlessly was also meant to play up the contrast imo. I actually liked that. I liked the show highlighting that Sam and Dean are good people (and that the BMOL fascists aren't). 

What I didn't like was just that Dean disappeared for half the episode and it was really awkward and weird. I mean, he was on the phone with Sam when Sam got kidnapped, so I was sure he was going to come to the farm ASAP-- but then he didn't? I mean, at least call 911 for your brother, dude. I actually wonder if in the script originally, there was a side plot with Dean that got cut (for time or something?) and TPTB decided to just try to explain away where he was by adding in the line about getting the Wiccan social worker's number.

I also thought the family itself was a little OTT, and not in a realistic way. I was expecting the family to be sort of like the Duggars/19 Kids and Counting, I guess?! That family/their milieu seems archetypal of homegrown American religious fundamentalism to me, so maybe that's why. But then they went in the direction of really cheesy old school Exorcist kinds of movies instead, and I sort of wasn't feeling it. Also, I thought the family -- or really, the mom -- just seemed kind of flat and one-note? Eh.

Also, did anyone else laugh at Sam and the mom shouting at the kids to eat/not eat the poisoned food? Especially when the son had the spoon like an inch away from his mouth and was just looking SUPER confused? I don't know, that just came off as so silly to me. And why were they even considering eating the food? It's poisoned! And the mom's thing of everyone being together in heaven didn't seem that appealing, considering that she was AWFUL. I wouldn't want to be with her in heaven, sorry.

Oh wait, I guess the mom wanting everyone to be together in heaven was meant to mirror Mary? *shrug*

23 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

In fact, if Sam hadn't been a such a jerk to the mother and preached at her, they wouldn't have gotten kicked off the farm in the first place and perhaps they would've been able to figure out Magda wasn't actually dead.

I think that maybe he wasn't being pragmatic/practical, but I don't think he was a jerk. That woman was in her own little echo chamber and she SORELY needed a reality check. I don't mind Sam just losing it and trying to give her one. I actually liked how appalled he was at the mother. Imo it was also interesting how Sam was so completely appalled by the mom, while meanwhile, Dean seemed relatively charmed by the dad. I was actually kind of wondering why Dean seemed to warm up to the father and son so much when he was questioning them, but I guess he's got a soft spot for fathers and sons working together?

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Dean wanted Mary alive again in the present given his understanding of the natural order. He just missed her and that part of himself that died with her.  Dean found a way to get on with his life and live with that loss.  Unfortunately the part of him that died with her probably can't be resurrected.  That must really stir up his existential crisis stuff. 

I don't really agree with the natural order thing, because I don't think he even considered her being alive again a possibility -- until it actually happened.

Her life was also not given to her as part of a deal, it was a gift. So I think he's seeing it (and the show is portraying it) like a miracle, rather than like something that there will be (supernatural) bad/dangerous consequences for.

I do agree that I would think that part of the issue for Dean right now is that what's done is done, he's already grown, and it's kind of too late for him to actually get/have a mother. But I'm not sure if that's actually meant (by the show) to be something that's going on with him, or whether that's just something that I would expect to be going on with him, given the circumstances?

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm also not sure that Dean always sees himself as the problem, either. Sometimes he very stubbornly thinks the decisions he makes are the right ones and/or that Sam is the problem, like the whole thing about Sam leaving for college being him "abandoning the family" and just not being a "good son."

Yeah, I think that Sam usually assumes the problem is within himself somehow, and Dean usually externalizes the problem.

Very generally, I think that Sam is more afraid of what he might do and Dean is more afraid of what might be done to him. Of course there are exceptions, though.

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is worried that Mary rejected them, that she won't be coming back  and he is also worried about her. Him asking if he should call her Mom or Mary was kind of heartbreaking. [...]

I'm starting to think maybe Sam isn't processing this himself and he's focusing on managing Dean's emotions rather than actually dealing with his own.   I dunno.

I didn't think him asking what to call her was heartbreaking. I was pleasantly surprised that he was continuing to reach out to her. They have to adjust to Mary not being the mom that they knew when they were babies, just like she has to adjust to them not being the babies she knew. Imo asking what to call her was just part of figuring that adjustment out.

Interesting thought about Sam focusing on managing Dean's feelings in order to avoid his own. Tbh, I don't think that's what's happening -- I think that Sam isn't reacting especially strongly right now because he's basically just taking things as they come. But it's a very interesting angle to think about.

16 hours ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line: Dean has a well-earned abandonment issue that Mary doesn't understand but Sam does.  When Sam realized Dean had gone to a worst case (we'll never see her again) spot, he was right IMO to try and bring him back from that.  And Dean's showed faith in Sam's judgement and let himself accept the situation a bit more.  That's good stuff IMO.  And I didn't need three episodes for them to get there.  

I agree. How I understood it, Mary told them she would be coming back, and Dean didn't believe her and Sam did. But for once, Sam was able to convince Dean to have a little more faith.

Everyone is talking about abandonment issues, but where is that coming from? From Mary dying back in '83? Sorry for the dumb question. I'm just not understanding when Dean was actually abandoned?

13 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now I wonder if they are bringing up the kids with powers for a reason, or if this is just a one-off and if Sam regain/reuse his powers.

Even before this episode aired, I was thinking that it would be similar to the S1 episode, Nightmare. That was about a kid with telekinesis, who ends up using his powers against his abusive family. So when quiet a few scenes from that episode were in the previously's, I figured that it was because it was a similar storyline, not because they were going to rehash the YED special kids stuff. I figured that they also just showed a bunch of scenes from episodes about psychics, to remind us that psychics exist (no Pamela, though?). But who knows where they're going with that.

Honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, it would make sense for the YED to come up again, what with Mary's story being so tied to his.

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, no worries, that`s never gonna happen on this show. It`s DEAN`s job to get over himself and kiss other`s boo-boos to make them feel better and soothe their valid feelings of snowflake-dom. 

He could kiss my boo-boos anytime, just sayin'.....ahem, nevermind. Carry on.

[SueB]

I suspect there IS a deleted scene with more Dean time and John Showalter (the director) cut it for length and because it didn't play well in parallel with Sam's story.  So, I'll put the length on the writer but the choice to focus mostly on the family plot with Showalter.

What we saw:
- Dean & Sam split at the halfway point in the story (21 min)
- We stay at the farm (but not with Sam) for a good 4-5 mins while Murder!Mom (trademark someone else), starts in on Magda
- THEN we have a short scene of Sam & EMF and hiding while the father and son talk
- Back to Dean for a short scene where he realizes Beth is not a killer.  She ends with 'why are you here?'
-- This is the obvious spot for Dean to come up with some random excuse and (NOW I'M PURELY SPECULATING) ask Beth why do a job she hates. Given John kept them off the CPS radar for years, I suspect Dean generally doesn't like them just on principal.  So this scene would have provided a moment for Beth to say that she hates splitting up families but if a parent is violent or endangering the children, she knows someone has to step in.  She could go on to say that the best part of her job is when they can reunite families who have overcome struggles (tying in with the Mary story).  SOME conversation with Beth seems probable because otherwise the random phone number is a bit out of the blue (unlike S1-3 where it happened all the time).  
But we didn't get that.  IMO due to time and the Director's choice that the farm story was more compelling.
- Back to Sam seeing in the window and Dean calling him. Sam getting knocked out, then Dean setting off with tires squeeling.
- NEXT is about 8 mins of Sam scene only.  But it was more about the MOTW than Sam, to be honest. It was about Magda and Murder!Mom.  
- At 5 mins to go we're in wrap up with Sam and Dean.
- Then we have an extra coda with Mr. Ketch killing Magda.

So... as I see it, the sense that this was "all Sam" and Dean wandered off is actually exacerbated by three things:
1) The "A" plot really was at the farm, not with Beth. And we spent time setting up the story after Sam and Dean split up.  So even though Sam was not physically on the scene, he was at that location.
2) The was likely a dropped minute of dialog for Dean that allowed more time with Murder!Mom
3) The extra coda made the overall episode 3 min shorter than usual.

So yes, Sam had the one 8 minute scene with Magda.  There was no good way for that to be spliced by Dean chatting up Beth.  If they HAD made the cut, it would have been before Sam was captured and that would have shortened the climax (which the Director likely didn't want).

But in a story of a Murder!Mom punishing a psychic kid, that's a Sam focused story all the way.  I don't think it was really as lopsidedly written as many may think. 

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

So... as I see it, the sense that this was "all Sam" and Dean wandered off is actually exacerbated by three things:
1) The "A" plot really was at the farm, not with Beth. And we spent time setting up the story after Sam and Dean split up.  So even though Sam was not physically on the scene, he was at that location.
2) The was likely a dropped minute of dialog for Dean that allowed more time with Murder!Mom
3) The extra coda made the overall episode 3 min shorter than usual.

I think that what was weird wasn't the relative amount of screentime, it's that Dean *heard* Sam get attacked. They were on the phone together when it happened. So you'd think he'd be on his way immediately. But then it seemed like hours passed, and he never showed up? That didn't make sense.

That's why I'm like, the show must have originally given him some storyline that kept him from getting to the farm quickly. Like he ran into some other baddie or whatever.

Because even his later throwaway line about talking to Beth doesn't really explain why he didn't show. I mean, even if he was with her, it would have made more sense to just bring her (and have her help with the kids or something) than to abandon Sam to his fate.

Or maybe that plot hole was just a weird oversight. Or maybe they did have a plotline for Dean during that part of the episode, but Jensen needed time off from filming for personal reasons, so they beefed up Sam's scenes and dropped his. Whatever.

I don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I did think it was confusing while watching the episode. I kept waiting for Dean to show!

[MysteryGuest]

Dean's conversation with Beth where she gave him her phone number took place at the end of the episode.  After she talked to Magda, she asked if she could speak with Dean.  They walked off together, and then Sam later asked hm what she wanted.  He said she gave him her number.

There is no valid explanation for what Dean was doing after learning that Sam was in trouble.  It was a writing and/or editing fail, basically.  

[Zanne]

On 11/4/2016 at 1:19 AM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

But finding that I also hope they don't go that route, because how would her son have gotten his psychic abilities?  Did LTB (unwittingly?) sleep with a supernatural being, the kid has a similar 'origin story' as Sam, or was he just born with abilities??  

Way back in season [probably two since Azazel was involved and therefore still alive], Azazel tried to reboot his special children line. Remember baby Rosie? The Boys tried to kill Azazel with the Colt, I think, and failed, but that plot thread with the special children 2.0 was left dangling. How old is the BMoLW's kid?

 

ETA: What arhtee said. Damn quote button limitations!

Edited November 5, 2016 by Zanne

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

SPECULATING) ask Beth why do a job she hates. Given John kept them off the CPS radar for years, I suspect Dean generally doesn't like them just on principal.  So this scene would have provided a moment for Beth to say that she hates splitting up families but if a parent is violent or endangering the children, she knows someone has to step in.  She could go on to say that the best part of her job is when they can reunite families who have overcome struggles (tying in with the Mary story).  SOME conversation with Beth seems probable because otherwise the random phone number is a bit out of the blue (unlike S1-3 where it happened all the time).  
But we didn't get that.  IMO due to time and the Director's choice that

Is there some evidence that such a scene was written? Not being snarky, actually asking. Maybe someone can ask Jensen at the con this weekend.

[goldy]

45 minutes ago, Zanne said:

 How old is the BMoLW's kid?

He looked about 5 or 6 years old to me.