Carol: One Day You Just Change

[kikismom]

I don't remember that exact quote, but it wouldn't surprise me.  My ex could be very charming, but he was still a sociopath.  And I certainly believe that they had some good times.  Those actually are the worst.  Now that I'm away from my ex and can look back on things, it's the good times I regret.  Why?  Because they helped keep me invested in the relationship, they were the hope of what could be, what should be, and they ended up being nothing but lies.

Sorry to hear that, but glad you felt you can share it with us...maybe save someone else from the rose-colored glasses snare.

 

I think it is very interesting that the show can be so wrong in how they write certain women characters, and get it so right other times.

 

I would love to have a chart...with all the scriptwriters for TWD, then the episodes they wrote, then the significant plot points and dialogue lines next to that. I wonder if viewers would by and large agree on the hits and misses...and we could really see who should remain writing and who should be tossed.

Maybe even a chart with directors, most true moments and most awkward or inconsistent behaviours.

Edited October 24, 2014 by kikismom

[raven]

 

Eh, I think he was uncomfortable with it in a way that he would be uncomfortable with flattery, compliments, and closeness from anyone. Daryl just seems very socially awkward. But I think if he genuinely didn't like her gentle flirting he'd distance himself from her - and he hasn't. Before the "I'll go down first" - "Even better" exchange, he had been giving her a neck massage. Again, that's doesn't mean they're lovers, but that is a pretty intimate gesture.

Taken from the Beth thread - I think Daryl is a little in awe of Carol, besides not knowing really how to act around women.

 

(Sorry, home with a bad cold so kind of rambling).  Posting in the Shane thread got me thinking about Daryl & Carol; I think Daryl kept searching for Sophia as much as for Carol as for Sophia.  He had probably been exposed to battered women before and admired her for living and thriving after Ed died.  This may have surprised him and he obviously felt for her with losing Sophia.

 

I like their friendship and would be OK with it going farther but I don't see it yet.  I think Carol was up for some casual sex and may have gone there with Axel if he didn't get shot in the head (though he did end up being useful as a dead human shield, heh).

 

I dunno - I was annoyed that she didn't search for Sophia and her needling Daryl to take charge was annoying - just do it yourself if it bugs you - and I guess her killing Karen and David is a natural progression?  I don't agree with it and I get the feeling TPTB wanted her to be something really rough around the edges but MMB doesn't play her that way.  She can make the tough decisions now and was obviously torn up by the Grove.  I can't tell if the show wants to portray her as cold or if MMB is trying to portray her as showing a tough front but still cares - she must, why else would she have hung around the prison and gone to save the group at Terminus?  It's a little disjointed but doesn't make her predictable, she's interesting.

[kikismom]

Yeah, I was kinda pissed about Axel getting shot...maybe I'm crazy but they were cute together and could have solved a lot of problems (cough cough) from coming up.

[raven]

I'm probably crazy too because I thought they were kind of cute together and Carol deserved an angst free, fun roll in the hay.

[mightysparrow]

Call me crazy too because I thought they were great together too. Much better chemistry than she has with Daryl. It would have been a great story line with the prisoner and the abused woman starting over together. Oh well.

 

I don't agree with it and I get the feeling TPTB wanted her to be something really rough around the edges but MMB doesn't play her that way.  She can make the tough decisions now and was obviously torn up by the Grove.  I can't tell if the show wants to portray her as cold or if MMB is trying to portray her as showing a tough front but still cares - she must, why else would she have hung around the prison and gone to save the group at Terminus?  It's a little disjointed but doesn't make her predictable, she's interesting.

 

 I sometimes get the feeling that MMB and tptb aren't always on the same page regarding Carol.  It was MMB who said in an interview that Carol killing Karen and David was a mercy killing; it wasn't on the show.  Yet Carol's fans have run with it as if it's fact.  I don't know if it was discussed on set or if MMB just didn't want people to think badly of her character.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I think Daryl kept searching for Sophia as much as for Carol as for Sophia.  He had probably been exposed to battered women before and admired her for living and thriving after Ed died.

 

Personally I think it nothing to do with Ed. Unless I'm misremembering, Daryl's mother just...took off, no? And Lori? Well, y'll know the deal there. :)  Then you have Carol who, I feel, was the type of mother I'd be in a ZA: my child stapled to my side at all times. Unless clips I've seen online have been manipulated, there were occasions which seemed to suggest that Daryl witnessed/observed several instances of Carol mothering Sophia. It was a cruel twist of fate which separated Sophia from Carol and then the child was gone. I think Daryl stepped up because he subconsciously wanted Carol to be rewarded for being such a caring, attentive mother. I don't think it's coincidence that he behaved like an asshole to her when she gave up on her daughter. I think that hit a bit close too home for Mr Dixon.

 

I confess I was fucking floored when Carol floated the idea of them screwing around at the prison. Even if she had been joking, that just came out of nowhere for me. When she giggled, I relaxed a bit and dismissed it as teasing, which is why I howled in awe and delight when she made a fucking cunnilingus joke 3 seconds later.

 

While I don't think I'd be totally against the notion of their relationship moving towards romantic, part of me really just wants them to stay close without that extra level. I love that they support each other, look out for each other, and take care of each other. That they do it WITHOUT romantic motivation is just so lovely to me.

 

They have a beautiful bond together right now and I'm not honestly sure that I trust the writers to not fuck it up if they moved Carol and Daryl into a romance *cough* Maggie/Glenn *cough*...

 

 

It was MMB who said in an interview that Carol killing Karen and David was a mercy killing; it wasn't on the show.

 

I hadn't read that interview but I think the show kind of supported that. In no way did I think the show presented Karen and David's lives as salvageable. People died AFTER them. It was only when main characters got sick that medical improvisations happened and a supply run was organized. ;)  I truly believe, within show events, that K&D were toast. Having seen later characters die suffocating in their own blood, I would deem a knife in the brain a mercy too...

Edited October 24, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[nodorothyparker]

Carol told Rick in the car on the drive to the surburb with magically tied up tomato plants that they would have drowned in their own blood.  I think that pretty heavily implies that she at least saw it as a mercy killing.  Particularly as we saw a whole lot of redshirts do exactly that while Herschel was running around trying to save named cast members.  No one was organizing supply runs for meds or brewing elderberry tea until much later when all the extras from Woodbury were sick, so you can see where she might have thought their odds weren't particularly good.

 

Daryl's mother fell asleep with a lit cigarette and burned the house down around her.  He told the story to Carl right after he shot Lori, I guess as his way of trying to relate.  Carl had the best WTF look on his face.

Edited October 24, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[JBody]

She liked her wine and Virginia slims. ..

[kikismom]

Carol told Rick in the car on the drive to the surburb with magically tied up tomato plants

.  He told the story to Carl right after he shot Lori, I guess as his way of trying to relate.  Carl had the best WTF look on his face.

In addition to the "magically tied up tomato plants  ( LOL), from which they only took the red ones, did you get a look at that onion in the basket on the kitchen table? hahaha

 

When you are counseling a kid who shot his mom, a good conversational ice-breaker is to regale him with the tale of how your own mom passed out drunk and burned herself to death in her bed. And to think people say Daryl is socially awkward.

[nodorothyparker]

That was really one of those things where you just have to shrug and say "well, he meant well."  Because he clearly did seem to think he was helping.

[ghoulina]

^^^

 

So true. But hey, at least SOMEONE was talking to Carl. Kid just had to shoot his mom and everyone's standing there like they don't want to be first on the dance floor at a middle school party.

[nodorothyparker]

That's what happens when Dad's off ignoring the kids talking to dead people on the phone.

[RedheadZombie]

Reminders that Daryl has come so far ....... which I guess I should take to the Daryl thread.

 

 

I dunno - I was annoyed that she didn't search for Sophia and her needling Daryl to take charge was annoying - just do it yourself if it bugs you - and I guess her killing Karen and David is a natural progression?

 

People have been very divided on the interpretation of this event.  I think you're referring to the night the farm fell.  I am amongst the group who believes Carol was not trying to get Daryl to overthrow Rick's leadership.  I think that Carol was very disillusioned that Rick blamed them all for his act of killing Shane, and that he kept secret they all were infected.  Carol did say that Daryl was being held back - but I believe she included herself in that group.  I very much felt that Carol was encouraging Daryl to leave all of them behind (including herself), and move on. 

[ghoulina]

I agree. I can't remember the exact wording now, but she finished with "and I'm a burden". So I took her as meaning Daryl would be better off without any of them.

[kikismom]

Reminders that Daryl has come so far ....... which I guess I should take to the Daryl thread.

 

 

People have been very divided on the interpretation of this event.  I think you're referring to the night the farm fell.  I am amongst the group who believes Carol was not trying to get Daryl to overthrow Rick's leadership.  I think that Carol was very disillusioned that Rick blamed them all for his act of killing Shane, and that he kept secret they all were infected.  Carol did say that Daryl was being held back - but I believe she included herself in that group.  I very much felt that Carol was encouraging Daryl to leave all of them behind (including herself), and move on. 

 

 

I agree. I can't remember the exact wording now, but she finished with "and I'm a burden". So I took her as meaning Daryl would be better off without any of them.

I would add that during the same incident at the campfire, Maggie told Glenn "I think we should take our chances." Only Herschel's intervening argument stopped them. So I don't think anyone was advocating an overthrow, but more than one person was of the mind that they should cut their losses and leave Rick.

Don't forget T-Dawg didn't even want to find the others before Rick admitted the secret he knew from the CDC. T-Dawg was done after the overrun of the farm and seriously meant to head for the coast.

[nodorothyparker]

I would add that during the same incident at the campfire, Maggie told Glenn "I think we should take our chances." Only Herschel's intervening argument stopped them. So I don't think anyone was advocating an overthrow, but more than one person was of the mind that they should cut their losses and leave Rick.

Don't forget T-Dawg didn't even want to find the others before Rick admitted the secret he knew from the CDC. T-Dawg was done after the overrun of the farm and seriously meant to head for the coast.

 

I was just about to type something very similar.  I've seen people try to argue that scene around the campfire as "proof" of ill intent but I've always read it as these people were just completely lost and demoralized after the farm fell.  They'd just spent time shoring it up and all moving into the house together to winter there and in a matter of hours it was gone and they were worse off than they'd been at the camp near Atlanta.  They'd seen two of the farm people eaten and believed Andrea was gone as well.  Meanwhile, Rick has just dropped this huge bomb on them that they're all infected and is now ranting like a crazy person about killing Shane for them and how their opinions don't matter anymore because it's not a democracy. 

 

I don't claim to know exactly what Carol was going for there.  I think it is open to a certain amount of interpretation, depending on how you feel about the character.  But I've always thought at that moment that had any of them seen any other realistic options at least a few of them might have decided to leave Rick there in the woods.

[kikismom]

I know I would have...and it isn't about Rick really, if anyone else had been in Rick's place and said "Here's the way it's gonna be---what you think or feel doesn't matter anymore, only what I think, and by the way I want to mention now, loudly while this young traumatized boy is still awake to hear it...I killed a member of our group by stabbing him and it's because of you and I'm a martyr I feel really sorry for myself but not for Patricia or Jimmy or Andrea and let's see I drove for an hour on Empty instead of stopping where there were cars and I could have got more gas and did I mention the reason Dr. Jenner said there is no hope is because it's a super-secret that you have no chance of not becoming the horrible things that ate your friends and family or being eaten by them, defenseless, because you didn't know..."

No matter who talked like that, and at a moment like that, I think I would have said Good-bye!

And I might have failed by that decision to leave, but I do not think it would make me a malicious, plotting, evil person to walk off.

[NoWillToResist]

Yeah, I must confess that I was fully on Carol's side when she was pissed at Rick for keeping the CDC secret. That shit was fucking CRITICAL to know. Dale was not a young man; he could have had a heart attack while he slept, turned, and then killed a bunch of them! Rick keeping that info from the group was not okay AT ALL. Your group's safety comes first, and that intel directly affected their safety.

 

I too think that Carol was telling Daryl that he'd do better on his own than weighed down by their little gang. But of course, by that time, Daryl had become attached to our dim little dears and so he wouldn't leave them.

[nodorothyparker]

I killed a member of our group by stabbing him and it's because of you and I'm a martyr

 

Especially since you know that every single person there by that point (well, maybe not Carl since he didn't even know where babies come from) had to be sitting there thinking "Wait. You're claiming did this for us?  It couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that until very very recently he was screwing your wife and now Maury isn't here to settle the who's the daddy issue, could it?"

 

Carol even said as much when Andrea later visited the prison and asked why it happened.  I don't remember her exact wording but Carol said something like "Shane loved Lori."  Everybody knew.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Carol even said as much when Andrea later visited the prison and asked why it happened.  I don't remember her exact wording but Carol said something like "Shane loved Lori."  Everybody knew.

 

I took that to mean that Shane's feelings for Lori are what put him over the edge and made him so dangerous that Rick had to put him down. It was his feelings for Lori (IIRC) that had Shane trying to murder Rick, which led directly to Rick having to kill him.

[nodorothyparker]

I think you're right.  But the triangle is what got them there and it wasn't much of a secret in the group.  Dale and Andrea both made comments about it in season 2 and Daryl referred to Judith as Little Shane before she was born at the beginning of season 3.

[kikismom]

I don't know if I laughed more when Andrea said "she'll get a husband, a boyyyyfriend ..." or when Lori says to Dale : "Was it that obvious?!" and Dale is like "Naw, naw, just me, no one else noticed!" then he threw up a little in his mouth.

[NoWillToResist]

Bringing this over from the Beth thread...

 

I doubt Carol was winning fans in season 2 and 3 solely due to her sparkling personality and vital importance to the plot

 

God, no. Hell, many people, including myself, couldn't fucking stand Carol in season 2 (I think...that was the one on the farm, right? The one where all she did was snivel and cry and mope and moan?). The best I could say about her was that she cooked and cleaned for the group. Otherwise, she was fucking useless and annoying.

 

But, for me, that character improved as she was given more to do. She learned new skills, started DOING STUFF, she found a backbone and a voice....that is why I still hold out hope for my impression of Beth. I don't hate Beth like I did Carol, so I'm hopeful that, with a little character/story development for Beth, I will come to like her as much as I have Carol.

 

Sure, I like the friendship Carol and Daryl have but it isn't the only thing either character has going on in the show; not by a long shot. Beth has lots of potential beyond her status with Daryl and I'm hoping that TPTB give Beth the same treatment/development they gave Carol.

Edited October 28, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[kikismom]

Bringing this over from the Beth thread...

 

God, no. Hell, many people, including myself, couldn't fucking stand Carol in season 2 (I think...that was the one on the farm, right? The one where all she did was snivel and cry and mope and moan?). The best I could say about her was that she cooked and cleaned for the group. Otherwise, she was fucking useless and annoying.

 

But, for me, that character improved as she was given more to do. She learned new skills, started DOING STUFF, she found a backbone and a voice....that is why I still hold out hope for my impression of Beth. I don't hate Beth like I did Carol, so I'm hopeful that, with a little character/story development for Beth, I will come to like her as much as I have Carol.

 

Sure, I like the friendship Carol and Daryl have but it isn't the only thing either character has going on in the show; not by a long shot. Beth has lots of potential beyond her status with Daryl and I'm hoping that TPTB give Beth the same treatment/development they gave Carol.

Thank you. I love this answer. My first thought was "oh God the first few episodes with Herschel I would never believe that he would become one of the most beloved characters! I thought this is a mean hypocritical old man."  It doesn't mean if my feelings changed, that I was wrong or right either way. As with a real-life crisis, people on this show rise to their best, or deteriorate to their worst. We fans must give each other space to feel when we are ready to embrace someone. Attack the character if we feel strongly, but no ad hominem attacks.

I still feel that I would follow Rick...unless I punch his head through a wall first.

[nodorothyparker]

Carol was aggravating as hell at times in season 2.  Between her sheer helplessness and periodic passive aggressiveness, there were times I truly wanted to throttle her.

 

But the thing is, the actress always sold it.  And even when you just wanted to reach through the screen to shake her and tell her to get out there and go look for her own damn kid, it made a certain amount of sense for the character she was at the time.  Because we'd seen her with Ed in the first season, we knew she was coming from a place of learned powerlessness and lack of any kind of initiative.  It didn't always make it any easier to take but it made it understandable.  And the entire Sophia plot, whatever your feelings about it are, could not have existed without her as she was.

 

I also found her transition during the offscreen months between seasons 2 and 3 believable.  At the start of the third season, she wasn't a badass but she had learned to shoot and kill walkers.  She was learning to assert herself.  She was still doing a lot of the childcare and domestic chores at the prison but she was also learning basic medical care and doing everything she could to make herself a productive member of the group.  All of this set the stage for when she truly finally came into her own in season 4.

 

The difference for me boils down to a strong actress who could make me care about her character even when the material she had to work with wasn't doing her any favors.

Edited October 28, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[GreyBunny]

Sure, I like the friendship Carol and Daryl have but it isn't the only thing either character has going on in the show; not by a long shot. Beth has lots of potential beyond her status with Daryl and I'm hoping that TPTB give Beth the same treatment/development they gave Carol.

 

For me here's the thing:  MMB is a really good actress, EK isn't. As nodorothyparker said, MMB sold whatever material she was given.  The writers can give Beth everything to do and try to fully develop her and she'd still be an empty shell because she's played by a weak actress that is out of her depth.  I've been aggravated by Carol at times but I always thought MMB was a fine actress who more than pulls her weight on the show.  EK is just dead weight.  

[mightysparrow]

I completely agree that EK is hopeless as an actress.  But I also think that MMB is over-rated.  All the 'give her an Emmy' talk makes me wonder if I'm watching the same show.  Perhaps it's because I get the feeling that MMB is a lot like Carol.  Whenever I think of a word to describe Carol, I always think of 'wispy' for some reason.  That's the same impression I get when I see MMB on panels or talk shows.

 

I know that MMB has received a lot of 'critical acclaim' but a lot of it is from online critics who don't really add up to much in my opinion.  Winning a Critic's Choice award becomes less impressive when you look at the list of critics.  And a lot of the Emmy talk comes from her fanbase who are known to be, shall we say, extreme.  I can just imagine the reaction my daring to criticize MMB's acting is going to provoke.  Which is why I think a lot of people don't.  They just don't want to have to deal with it.

[shanndee]

I think nodorothyparker says it perfectly for me. I didn't always love Carol either, but I always believed there was more to her character due to her backstory and due to MMB really selling me every aspect of Carol. 

 

Beth was a sheltered young girl. No backstory there. This leads to little or no interest from me.  GreyBunny puts the icing on the cake for me. The show runners are now trying to give her something to do but EK just doesn't have the skill set to pull it off.

 

I think I may need to show Mr. Shanndee these last few posts. :-)  He just doesn't understand  my dislike of Beth when he reminds me of early Carol. I think this will clear it up for him!

Edited October 28, 2014 by shanndee

[NoWillToResist]

 

Beth was a sheltered young girl. No backstory there. This leads to little or no interest from me.  GreyBunny puts the icing on the cake for me. The show runners are now trying to give her something to do but EK just doesn't have the skill set to pull it off.

 

Well, I'm willing to give EK a try. She really hasn't left any impression on me thus far but maybe that's the non-existent writing for her. If she's given something to sink her teeth into and doesn't sell it for me, that's another matter altogether. For now, I am blaming the lack of writing/story but time will tell if EK is up for the challenge.

 

I do think MMB is a good actress and has been able to make me feel for Carol even when the story is weak. Do I think she's the best actress ever? No. But I do find her very expressive and she certainly stands out in this cast (for me, anyway), that's for sure. She also appears to get a lot of love from her coworkers. Hell, didn't the guy who played Gareth, who didn't even have a scene with MMB, go off in rapture about her on Twitter or something? I feel certain I saw something like that recently...

 

 

That's the same impression I get when I see MMB on panels or talk shows.

 

I saw a lot of fan fluttering about a red carpet-ish interview with MMB and Norman Reedus. To say the interview did not live up to the hype would be an understatement. She came off as kind of...awkward and stilted to me, which really surprised me.

 

Anyway. I am very interested to see what became of Carol since I don't think she's about to emerge from the bushes. If she's AWOL again, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's like Dean/Cas on SPN. Found each other, separated, found each other, separated, found each other, separated...heh. Daryl's gonna get a complex. :D

[ghoulina]

I think MMB is a wonderful actress. There is a real subtlety about her. Even when not speaking, I'm captivated by her. 

 

And I agree with others, that even when I hated Carol I still found her a good and believable actress. A good actress will generally illicit strong feelings for their character, whether positive or negative. I really loathed Carol season 2, but by season 3 I was really starting to like her. With EK, I just can't be bothered to care. I don't love Beth, nor do I hate her. She annoys sometimes, but mostly she just doesn't really capture me enough to develop ANY strong feelings. 

[editorgrrl]

I really hate the title of this thread, "Carol: Mother Superior." Can someone please come up with something better? All I have so far is "Carol: She has to be strong."

Edited October 28, 2014 by editorgrrl

[Nashville]

I really hate the title of this thread, "Carol: Mother Superior." Can someone please come up with something better? All I have so far is "Carol: If you want to live, you have to be strong."

Carol: "Yeah, I did it."

Even better...

Carol: From Burning Bed to Burning Dead

[nodorothyparker]

Emily Kinney already got two episodes that were all about her that were just ... embarrassing to watch.  She was also the focus of a suicide arc in season two where she still managed to be the least interesting thing in a room that contained Lori. 

 

Melissa McBride does come off as a little awkward or overly emotional in some of her appearances.  She sometimes seems a little overwhelmed by it all, which is hardly surprising when you consider that she'd all but left acting and had been working as a casting agent for several years when she got what surely seemed to be the bit part of Carol.  She broke down at an NYC panel last month talking about how much loves the character, but so did Andy Lincoln talking about how life changing his has been.  I like seeing actors so connected to their roles.

 

What about "Carol: One Day You Just Change"?  Nothing else is jumping out at me either.

Edited October 29, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[lulee]

For my money (not that there's a lot of it), people should be welcome to criticize any actor, unpopular opinion or not. This isn't a fansite. Opinions differ - look at how the Emmy or Oscar nominations are picked apart every year. Any comment that provides a substantive critique of the acting itself, provided it's not blurring with the feelings about the character - or the actor for that matter, should be seen as a valid element of discussion.

 

About MMB's acting in particular: I think a lot (not all) of the characters and thus the acting on this show is written as "quiet" or mostly "quiet" - not a lot of big emotional displays or big physicality in character interactions. I think she does well with that, but sometimes that's a matter of taste. I know as a fan of Hannibal, some people haven't been engaged by Mads Mikkelsen's acting, but to me his performance is genius work of microexpressions.  Additionally, I think MMB has been great at projecting the weariness and a sense of resignation that more lately, the character only seems to verbalize after a decisive act.

Edited October 28, 2014 by lulee

[ghoulina]

What about "Carol: One Day You Just Change"?  Nothing else is jumping out at me either.

 

I really, really, REALLY like that one. 

 

 

Or, taken from her conversation with Merle at the prison -  Carol: She's a Late Bloomer. 

 

 

But I think I like yours better. =) I definitely don't like the current title, given how she is now.

[Nashville]

Not sure where/when I read it - a long while back, to be sure - but I seem to recall reading somewhere the role of Carol was originally intended to be a moderately weak "short-timer" character who died off fairly early in S2 or S3. It wasn't until MMB's portrayal of Carol started receiving significant positive viewer response that the producers and writers chose to revisit the longevity of the role.

So how about:

Carol: From Half-Assed to Badass

?

:)

[Ocean Chick]

I also wouldn't put too much faith in what critics say.  But since most of the cast (AL, NR, SY, LH, SWC, the guys who play Gareth and Abe, CC and so on) rave about MMB's acting skills, I'd have to say that that makes me believe that she has the skill I think she has.  In fact, Andy Lincoln is quoted as saying she is the single best actor he's ever worked with.  So it's not just critics who love her acting.

 

I loved her even back in season 1, because I've known women in those same situations and she acted the HELL out of her scenes, with believability.  And I knew that, given the chance, she could become so much more.  I'm glad I'm here to see that change.

[bosawks]

I've loved her since she whacked the hell out of Ed's corpse.

That was scenes from a marriage in one mostly wordless scene.

[NoWillToResist]

I like the idea of re-naming the thread Carol: She's a Late Bloomer. I think it sums up her character progression nicely. :)

[ghoulina]

I've loved her since she whacked the hell out of Ed's corpse.

 

Yup. That was the first example of her stellar acting. She didn't say a thing, but so many different emotions were conveyed on her face - relief, anger, grief. She was always a strong woman, she just needed to find that strength. It sucks she had to lose everything in order to do that, but that's often how it goes.

[GreyBunny]

^I just watched that episode again last night.  MMB was great, and Daryl was looking on with concern.  I think that was the earliest tiny spark of their bond.
 

[Emily Thrace]

I think nodorothyparker says it perfectly for me. I didn't always love Carol either, but I always believed there was more to her character due to her backstory and due to MMB really selling me every aspect of Carol. 

 

Beth was a sheltered young girl. No backstory there. This leads to little or no interest from me.  GreyBunny puts the icing on the cake for me. The show runners are now trying to give her something to do but EK just doesn't have the skill set to pull it off.

 

I think I may need to show Mr. Shanndee these last few posts. :-)  He just doesn't understand  my dislike of Beth when he reminds me of early Carol. I think this will clear it up for him!

Ah but to me backstory doesn't really make a character interesting on its own. Maybe its just because its a story that I know a lttile too well but being a battered wife doesn't really affect my opinion of Carol either way. Partner abuse can happen to anyone it doesn't make Carol a good person or even an interesting one.  I feel like what you been through is less important than how you deal with it. I feel like Carol got handed shit and dealt with it by whining crying and then cowardly murdering people. Her backstory explains her behavior but it doesn't excuse it and I feel like even without ever meeting Ed, Carol would still be a fairly selfish person. 

 

 

For me here's the thing:  MMB is a really good actress, EK isn't. As nodorothyparker said, MMB sold whatever material she was given.  The writers can give Beth everything to do and try to fully develop her and she'd still be an empty shell because she's played by a weak actress that is out of her depth.  I've been aggravated by Carol at times but I always thought MMB was a fine actress who more than pulls her weight on the show.  EK is just dead weight.

Personally I feel it half of dozen of one six of another with these two. I feel like MMB does great with whats in the script but doesn't really bring anything else to the role so I feel like Carol really doesn't have much of a personality. I mean if someone asked me to describe Carol in ten words I'm not sure I could and after four seasons that really is the fault of the actress. EK on the other hand may struggle with with some of her big scenes but she at least bring enough of her own sweetness and personality to the role that I feel like Beth has one. I also think EK has shows a lot of promise in scenes like the one on the porch and she at least has more room to grow.

[Gin and Tonic]

The moment that I realized MMB was very, very good was her prayer in the church in early season 2 after Sophia went missing.  She was fandiddlytastic in that scene.  And as frustrating as her subsequent inaction was, it helped set the tone for and give context to her behavior.

[mightysparrow]

Ah but to me backstory doesn't really make a character interesting on its own. Maybe its just because its a story that I know a lttile too well but being a battered wife doesn't really affect my opinion of Carol either way. Partner abuse can happen to anyone it doesn't make Carol a good person or even an interesting one.  I feel like what you been through is less important than how you deal with it. I feel like Carol got handed shit and dealt with it by whining crying and then cowardly murdering people. Her backstory explains her behavior but it doesn't excuse it and I feel like even without ever meeting Ed, Carol would still be a fairly selfish person. 

 

Personally I feel it half of dozen of one six of another with these two. I feel like MMB does great with whats in the script but doesn't really bring anything else to the role so I feel like Carol really doesn't have much of a personality. I mean if someone asked me to describe Carol in ten words I'm not sure I could and after four seasons that really is the fault of the actress. EK on the other hand may struggle with with some of her big scenes but she at least bring enough of her own sweetness and personality to the role that I feel like Beth has one. I also think EK has shows a lot of promise in scenes like the one on the porch and she at least has more room to grow.

 

 

I really like 2/3 of your comment.  I also don't have much of an idea of who Carol is and I do put that down to MMB's performance.   I think there's way too much emphasis put on 'heroic battered wife' that gives Carol a pass on just about everything she does, even when she's the one doing the abusing.  I find MMB's performance to be very two-dimensional, very flat.  I thought she was good in 'The Grove' but EVERYONE was good in that episode and Brighton gave the standout performance, in my opinon.

 

However, I do have to disagree with your assessment of EK.  I don't know if EK is sweet.  She hasn't been out and about enough for me to come to that conclusion.  I'm told over and over and over that Beth is sweet but I don't see that.  What I see is bland.  And if EK's 'struggling with the big scenes' then she should probably stick to singing because she's being paid to act.  If she's still 'struggling' after four seasons, she's in the wrong profession.  One of the things that's easy to forget is that Beth is the teenager, not EK.  Emily Kinney is almost 30 and has been around for quite a while.  There's no excuse for her dreadful performances.  I don't think that season 5 is Beth/EK's chance to shine.  I think it's her exit story.  We'll see if she can live up to ALL OF THE HYPE.  I don't think she has it in her but I'd love to be proven wrong, if only so the episodes devoted to Beth aren't as painful as 'Still' and 'Alone' were.

[shanndee]

I agree with the second half of mightysparrow's post. I have been told that Beth is sweet. I have not seen it. I just see the character as a total blank. As I said in the 4 Walls thread, I really hope that I can get to like her...but every time she is on screen I think about leaving to get snacks. I just get a whole lot of nothing at all from her.

 

Carol, on the other hand, I find incredibly compelling and interesting. 

 

Different strokes for different folks...and a good thing too! Just think how bored we would be if we all liked/disliked the same things! :D

Edited October 29, 2014 by shanndee

[RedheadZombie]

I guess acting ability can be subjective.  MMB doesn't chew the scenery like AL or NR, so it's possible to take her acting for granted.  Now I love some scene chewing, I'm not criticizing those that do it.  I personally think MMB conveys much, even when given little.  Probably the scene that impressed me the most, was one from The Grove.  The scene when Carol and Tyreese discover Mika dead, and Lizzie standing over Judith with a knife.  In a moment, several emotions flickered across MMB's face.  She was horrified and so devastated that Mika was killed, yet had to cover that emotion while talking down Lizzie.  There are only a handful of actors who can bring me to tears by virtue of their facial expressions alone, and MMB is one.

[editorgrrl]

From Michonne's thread:

Re Michonne and Morgan:  I don't know about this. Morgan, last we saw, was certifiable.  We don't know how badass he is yet.  I hope that this suggestion isn't simply because of race.  That said, episode 1 Morgan seemed like a good guy so I wouldn't have any real objections to this pairing. 

 

Of course it wasn't simply because of race.  Out of everyone in the ZA they seem to of had the closest experiences.  Both lost their children.  Both lost their spouse.  Both went off the deep end and spent time alone just killing Walkers.  I think they could really relate to each other, and I think because of their experiences they are both complete bad asses.  That and I love love love Lennie James so I want him to have the best :)

 

If (and only if) Morgan has come back from being batshit crazy, then I'm going to ship Morgan & Carol. Everything kj4ever said about Michonne applies equally well to Carol—plus she's age-appropriate.

[mightysparrow]

From Michonne's thread:

 

 

If (and only if) Morgan has come back from being batshit crazy, then I'm going to ship Morgan & Carol. Everything kj4ever said about Michonne applies equally well to Carol—plus she's age-appropriate.

 

Carol needs to keep her killer hands away from Morgan.  He's a good man who's been through a lot and he deserves better than Carol.  In my opinion.  If Daryl discovers that he's gay, Michonne would be the perfect partner for Morgan.  If not Michonne, then Sasha.

[Morrigan2575]

Carol: "Yeah, I did it."Even better...

Carol: From Burning Bed to Burning Dead

I hate the current title, if we can get a change, I vote for you second suggestion...burning bed to burning dead.

I also liked the title we had at TWOP, Carol: The Real Lost Girl, after everything with Karvid and Lizzy it seems to fit just as much now as then.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[AngelaHunter]

And if EK's 'struggling with the big scenes' then she should probably stick to singing because she's being paid to act.

 

Please, no. No more singing. Her interminable "songs" made me want to puncture my eardrums. Gah!