Carol: One Day You Just Change

[mandolin]

 What about when Beth was suicidal? She could have turned and killed Lori right there in her bedroom

Oh, man. That would've been perfect. 

 

Back to Carol: for me, rewatching her in the first couple seasons is downright painful. I don't think I have an issue with MB's acting, but from the ironing board, to "you left my little girl out there!" to the "man of honor" thing, I really grew to dislike her. I did feel for her in moments, like when she says that Ed never let her have nice things as she is admiring a shirt. I also appreciate that she had the grenade, but as her character was written, I don't see her having saved it and kept quiet about it actually. I enjoyed and appreciated her the most in season 3 ("sleep with the Governor and stab him!"), but in season 4, she's back to kind of eh for me again. I don't think she's a useless whiner, but she has swung too far in the other direction. "Let's kill Karen and David...just in case!"

 

Re: stuff and thangs. I love them so much. Even though I am kind of over the whole "keep calm and whatever" trend, I have a shirt that pictures a sheriff's hat and says "keep calm and do stuff, things." I only lament the fact it doesn't say THANGS.

Edited July 29, 2014 by mandolin

[Boofish]

Mandolin I read references to "stuff and thangs" and I always wondered what the heck was the inside joke. Then upon rewatch I saw it for myself and it is pure television GOLD. My other favorite was Rick saying "SI UN TIST" into that walkie talkie to Morgan. I have forgiven it all when I finally saw an interview with him and realize he as well as Maggie have heavy accents from their homeland. I think their southern drawl is not that bad but clearly Mr. Lincoln could not say "scientist"

 

Back on topic - what happend to all them damn MREs Carol claimed Ed had in that Cherokee. How long did it take them to get to the CDC and how long before that were they at Camp Matter of Time?

[ghoulina]

I don't know how long those guys were at the quarry prior to Rick showing up, but once he did they were there 4 days I believe, the 4th being the day they left for the CDC. Day one - Rick shows up. Day two - he goes back to get Merle and they encounter the Vatos. Return to find the camp overrun by walkers. The next day they burn the dead. Day four - leave. 

 

She didn't say how many MREs they had, but the first Camp Dinner Bell had quite a few people. I could see them blowing through them pretty quickly, especially since these people seemed to be of the mind that salvation was right around the corner and weren't exactly thinking long term at that point. 

[Boofish]

I don't think anyone thought much of Carol in the beginning. Remember the great GRENADE INCIDENT at the CDC when Shane said "Carol I don't think a nail file is going to help" .. That is a top moment/line for me along with

 

Olive Oyl (Darryl to Lori)

When Dr. Jenner said the door was meant to withstand a rocket launch and Darryl replied while holding an ax "I bet your head ain't"

And the infamous "stuff and things"

[Spartan Girl]

I think after last night, Carol definitely earned the title for this thread.  She was awesome.

[missy jo]

Loved having a female character be their savior.

[lawless]

I loved having a middle-aged woman be their savior, and love that she managed it by being smart, calm under pressure, resourceful, and damn fucking brave.  I appreciate that they have had past success with covering themselves with zombie guts, but I think it's got to be very unnerving to walk amongst a herd like that hoping that none of them notice you, because as soon as one zeros in on you and another notices, the jog is up.  That alone was brave.  And the whole infiltrate and assault the Termites to save her friends was amazing.  Blowing the propane tank with a firecracker?  I love her!  And I didn't used to, I used to hate her.  But she is consistently full of surprises -- please show, do not kill her off, her intelligence, coldness, and drive in a crisis are things of beauty to watch.

[momlyd]

What reduced me to a puddle was Daryl's reaction to seeing her!

[NoWillToResist]

The Carol/Daryl reunion was the highlight for me because I missed them together on my screen. Love that duo. Seeing Daryl all emotional over her? Yeah, I can't get that outta my head.

 

I really liked that she took charge and that Tyreese, the big strong man, stayed behind to babysit while Carol did the heavy lifting.

 

I am happy to hand-wave away certain elements of the rescue (mighty handy that the firework was so accurate, how did she clean up her face and hair so thoroughly before meeting up with the rest of the gang) but I don't quite understand the reunion itself. Did she see them escape and knew where in the woods to find them? Did she check Terminus from top to bottom and figured they were either dead already or had escaped, got cleaned up and went to wander the woods to see if she could find them?

 

I adored that Carol was utterly DONE fucking around with Mary. She's all "where are my people", and Mary's all "blah blah blah" and Carol's all BLAM "Let's try again..."  Heh.

 

Kudos to MMB for her nuanced reaction to Rick. When he asked if she had done "all that", even though she knows she saved them all, she didn't triumphantly take credit...she looked unsure and a little nervous. After all, the last time she took matters into her own hands and she ended up killing some people, Rick banished her. Very happy to see that fence mended - and all before he even knew that Judith was alive. My husband wondered why she didn't tell Rick about Judith (rather than just trek them to the cabin) but I think it was smart. Anything could have happened back at that cabin. I can't even imagine telling Rick that Judith is safe and then find her gone or dead upon their return.

 

I'm impressed that Carol managed to haul around that massive assault rifle, a shotgun and Daryl's crossbow. Girl's been working out during her exile! :)

[nodorothyparker]

With the split action making the time line wonky, I had to fanwank that she might have come out the creepy remembrance room door just in time to see Rick going over the fence.  He was either last or next to last, so she could have made an educated guess that he wouldn't leave unless everyone who was with him was out and then just followed them. 

 

As far as washing all the walker muck off, I guess there must have been a magic stream somewhere there in the woods where she could quickly wash up and continue trailing them.  I liked the little tentative nod when Rick asked if she had done all that too.  She had to realistically know that they couldn't know how she had made their escape possible and wasn't sure how they'd react to seeing her.

[kikismom]

I've noticed lots of new memes with "IF CAROL DIES WE RIOT"

[ghoulina]

I've noticed memes of her with that gas can, promising to take out Ebola. 

 

Get it, girl!

[NoWillToResist]

 

She had to realistically know that they couldn't know how she had made their escape possible and wasn't sure how they'd react to seeing her.

 

I think it's kind of a compliment that Rick even thought Carol could have been responsible for their rescue. It's as possible that she was simply wandering around in the woods. Shows that he knows she will fucking throw down for her family. Some things never change. :)

 

I'm assuming that Rick and Carol will be fine with each other now which makes me happy. Their hug when Daryl brings him to see Carol (after they thought she'd been killed by walkers at the prison) was so lovely. I enjoyed their dynamic.

[CletusMusashi]

Carol:  Knock, knock

Rick: Who's there?

Carol: Guerilla

Daryl: Guerilla who?

Carol: Guerilla your dreams, baby.

[RainOnToosdays]

Mother Superior and Fairy Godmother. (Hmm, That makes Fairy Godmother Superior.)

Not once but twice now, when neither cast nor audience had any idea where she was at or if even still alive, she has miraculously appeared out of the blue to save the day. No explanation, nothing; some other character just turns around and poof! Carol has magically appeared. 

(Actually, she has disappeared and reappeared three times, the first being in the prison when Daryl found her an ep or two later. But that time when she reappeared she wasn't yet Magic Fairy Godmother Superior Commando Carol.)

[RedheadZombie]

I've always loved Carol.  The last two seasons though, she's been in my top three.  I think the killing of David and Karen made no sense, and it didn't run true to the character, in my opinion at least.  This show tends to be plot driven, rather than character driven, so they tend to sacrifice the integrity of the character, in order to advance the plot - see Andrea.

 

While I love Carol, I accepted the banishment by Rick.  She had turned into an unrecognizable person, was unpredictable, as well as completely remorseless.  I do not try to explain away Carol's crime because I believe Carol was not capable of it.  Carol is very smart.  She would have known Karen and David would die soon, and she could have locked them in their cells, then killed them before they turned.  Instead, she killed them and left a huge amount of their contagious blood smeared all over.  It created panic and distrust within the group, as well as paranoia as they speculated who the killer was.

 

I hope the show lets Carol move on with little or no mention of the two deaths.

 

 

[Seawolff]

I keep thinking about Carol telling Mary "you're not here. I'm not here either" or some such. Was she referring to the probability that the woman that Mary was before torture is not there anymore, that she's not her real self anymore?

[nodorothyparker]

I've watched that scene a couple of times trying to decipher that line because it fascinates me too.  It comes after Mary blathers on and on trying to justify the whole you're the butcher or the cattle thing and how they started out as good people, and Carol clearly just isn't having it. 

 

Just guessing, but knowing that we're just coming off the awful decision she had to make in the Grove I read it as her saying you know you're full of shit and so am I when we try to justify the terribly wrong things we do.  For me it feels like a real self-awareness moment of her understanding where that kind of thinking can lead.

Edited October 15, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

I do not try to explain away Carol's crime because I believe Carol was not capable of it.  Carol is very smart.  She would have known Karen and David would die soon, and she could have locked them in their cells, then killed them before they turned.  Instead, she killed them and left a huge amount of their contagious blood smeared all over.

 

That was the biggest problem I had with this out-of-character storyline for Carol. It was just so idiotic. At that point, Karvid had been quarantined. They had already been exposed to pretty much everyone in their cell block anyway. Almost everyone from Rick's cell block had gone into D to help take out the walkers. So they had been exposed at that point too. That was why they separated Beth and Judith entirely. So why on earth would killing them at this point stop the virus from spreading??? It wouldn't. But would COULD spread it further is Carol marching in there, stabbing them, and then going to hang out with the rest of the crew. It was just so effing stupid, and Carol isn't stupid. 

 

I keep thinking about Carol telling Mary "you're not here. I'm not here either" or some such. Was she referring to the probability that the woman that Mary was before torture is not there anymore, that she's not her real self anymore?

 

On TTD Scott Gimple said it was basically her way of saying she'd never be like Mary? That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but there you have it.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I keep thinking about Carol telling Mary "you're not here. I'm not here either" or some such. Was she referring to the probability that the woman that Mary was before torture is not there anymore, that she's not her real self anymore?

 

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I took it to mean that Mary's about to not be there and that Carol's leaving the same way she came in...undetected.

 

I thought my translation had merit when Carol opened the door to let the walkers (A) skip right over her (lending credence to Carol 'not being there') and (B) eat Mary (lending credence to Mary not being there anymore) :)

 

 

On TTD Scott Gimple said it was basically her way of saying she'd never be like Mary? That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but there you have it.

 

I guess "here" could mean 'in the same state of mind' rather than a physical place. If so, it kinda makes a sort of sense. Carol is denying that she'll ever have the same mindset as Mary. And Mary's death is going to negate Mary entirely.

Edited October 15, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Seawolff]

Oh yes, I had read all of the comments in the various threads and watched TTD before making mine, just thought I'd throw in one more angle.

Really, Mary was not "all there" on so many levels. I'm also rubbing around the reasons as to why Carol didn't put Mary out of her misery with a bullet to the head:

Was she just too busy? (I'm leaning towards this one) Carol is just, like, no answers, no time for small talk, deliberating or moralizing, gotta find my peeps. Smell ya later. Or not. In other words, I've put way more thought into it than Carol did.

Did she not want to be directly responsible for killing someone she didn't have to? Is she over that after the "mercy killing" at the prison?

Did she see a benefit to using Mary as walker bait to distract the puppies when she made her exit?

Or, was she being Mary, by first the torturous shot to the leg while questioning and then allowing Mary to suffer being eaten alive? Personally I think this one is NOT the case. I think the two decisions were completely separate and non emotional. the shot to the leg was a bit of insurance against being bested, as well as a way to wake Mary up and let her know she meant business.

I'm leaving now to live my real life, where it isn't necessary to ask myself these things because I don't live in a war zone.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Seawolff

[RedheadZombie]

As I've already stated at length, I love Carol and accept the killings because I think it was lazy writing, and not true to Carol's character.  Having said that, I think that Carol's crime is so easily dismissed by some, because of the lack of feeling we have for David and Karen.  For those who think Carol was right -  consider how you would feel if the characters were, perhaps - Hershel and Daryl, or maybe Judith and Michonne.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I think that Carol's crime is so easily dismissed by some, because of the lack of feeling we have for David and Karen.  For those who think Carol was right -  consider how you would feel if the characters were, perhaps - Hershel and Daryl, or maybe Judith and Michonne.

 

I'm not sure it's a matter of whether her actions were right vs wrong but more along the lines of "can I understand/forgive her actions?".

 

Whether I can forgive a character or not largely (if not entirely) depends on their motivations. So, while I'd feel the loss of a Hershel or Michonne more than a Karen or David, I like to think I would still be able to see that Carol meant well enough. She wasn't killing people for vengeance or for selfish gains; she was trying to save people.

 

I think this is why Tyrese was willing to forgive her. He may not agree with what she did or how she did it and he may be angry at her, but he can forgive because, if you'll forgive the cliched sentiment, her heart was in the right place.

[Seawolff]

If I remember correctly, Carol told Rick that one of her reasons for putting Karen and David out of their misery was that they were going to drown in their own blood. I took that to mean that they were already choking on their own blood when she went to visit and that helped her make the call..... If they were the first ones that they saw get sick it's not like she had some other reference point for knowing that information.

We did see that happen later. The same later in which Carol is beating herself up for making the call alone when it didn't do anybody but Karen and David any good. Yes. It did save them some suffering. They weren't going to make it because they were the first few and the second round of sick ones didn't even make it.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm also rubbing around the reasons as to why Carol didn't put Mary out of her misery with a bullet to the head:

Was she just too busy? (I'm leaning towards this one) Carol is just, like, no answers, no time for small talk, deliberating or moralizing, gotta find my peeps. Smell ya later. Or not. In other words, I've put way more thought into it than Carol did.

Did she not want to be directly responsible for killing someone she didn't have to? Is she over that after the "mercy killing" at the prison?

Did she see a benefit to using Mary as walker bait to distract the puppies when she made her exit?

 

I think any of these things could have factored in, but I'm chalking it up to something we've seen repeatedly:  Deliberately letting someone get eaten or letting someone turn is meant to be a form of disrespect in this world (remember Merle?).  Basically saying you aren't even worth a bullet.  It was obviously why Rick let the executioners turn too.

 

I had another thought on rewatching this scene.  A bit before Carol's line that "you aren't here and neither am I," Mary screams at her that "You could have been one of us."  Now I'm convinced that that's ultimately what the scene was about.  There was a choice to be made about fighting to hang on to your humanity or letting go of it and going the butcher or the cattle route.  She can see now what the latter ultimately looks like and decides to go look for her people.

[RainOnToosdays]

I still don't think Carol killed Karen & David as it makes no sense the way she left the bodies but lets say she did definitely without any doubt did do it ... Why all the hate & disgust towards her for it when Michonne confessed to killing two innocent people as well yet noone is batting an eye about that?

Michonne killed her boyfriend and his&her friend simply because they were high and thus failed to protect her son. It was a vengeance kill, for their passiveness, rather then a protective kill because they were threat, as in Carol's case. 

Carol's kills were for for the greater good, to protect her home & family. And her victims were dying anyway and the killing spared them more suffering. Michonne killed two healthy, able-bodied people and then let them turn into walkers which she then further degraded by chopping them up and chaining them up and using them as decoys. All for her own personal reasons, not for the greater good of anything. I like both characters but if we compare their murderous exploits, Michonne is clearly the more warped of the two. 

 

[mandolin]

I believe Michonne said they'd been bitten and she could've stopped it, but she let them turn.

If you can believe the wiki, it says the same:

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Michonne_(TV_Series)

Edited October 18, 2014 by mandolin

[ghoulina]

No, that's the way I remembered her telling it - Mike and his friend were high. The camp got overrun. They weren't watching the baby and he got killed, and they got bit as well. She simply chose not to put them out of their misery, and made them into pets instead.

[RainOnToosdays]

Ahhh, thanks, that explains it then.  I never knew (obviously) that they had been bitten first. I should figure out how to turn the CC on on my TV so I don't miss these bits of dialog. 

[GreyBunny]

My problem with Carol is that she didn't ask anyone beforehand or confess right afterward.  She allowed everyone to wonder if they had a murderer in the camp or if someone dangerous had snuck into the prison and were killing people.  She left a trail of blood and two charred bodies out in the open for her friends to find with no explanation, Tyreese was plagued by nightmares wondering what happened.  Tyreese and Rick got into a fight over Karen's death with Cowardly Carol standing RIGHT THERE and she didn't speak up to stop it, she just let them beat each other to a pulp.  All of that is what she needed to apologize for and she refused even when Rick gave her a chance to explain.  I don't blame Rick one bit for sending her away, he was trying to protect the others, especially his own children from someone who was killing with impunity, even if she thought she had a good reason. I would have banished her too.

[mightysparrow]

My problem with Carol is that she didn't ask anyone beforehand or confess right afterward.  She allowed everyone to wonder if they had a murderer in the camp or if someone dangerous had snuck into the prison and were killing people.  She left a trail of blood and two charred bodies out in the open for her friends to find with no explanation, Tyreese was plagued by nightmares wondering what happened.  Tyreese and Rick got into a fight over Karen's death with Cowardly Carol standing RIGHT THERE and she didn't speak up to stop it, she just let them beat each other to a pulp.  All of that is what she needed to apologize for and she refused even when Rick gave her a chance to explain.  I don't blame Rick one bit for sending her away, he was trying to protect the others, especially his own children from someone who was killing with impunity, even if she thought she had a good reason. I would have banished her too.

 

I totally agree with this. I've never drunk the Queen Carol Koolaid and the murder of Karen and David was proof that she's a nasty piece of work. To stand by while Rick beat Tyreese to a pulp was low and cowardly.  And when she confessed to Tyreese, it wasn't because she had seen the error of her ways but because she had bought the party line that Tyreese was this raging out of control beast that would grab the gun and put her out of her misery. She was trying to commit suicide-by-Tyreese. Sucks for her that Tyreese is a more decent human being than she could ever be.

 

Now Carol's in the catbird seat and she has Rick, the leader she's been trying to undermine, kissing her ass. Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown, Carol honey.

[NoWillToResist]

 

My problem with Carol is that she didn't ask anyone beforehand or confess right afterward.  She allowed everyone to wonder if they had a murderer in the camp or if someone dangerous had snuck into the prison and were killing people.  She left a trail of blood and two charred bodies out in the open for her friends to find with no explanation, Tyreese was plagued by nightmares wondering what happened.  Tyreese and Rick got into a fight over Karen's death with Cowardly Carol standing RIGHT THERE and she didn't speak up to stop it, she just let them beat each other to a pulp.

 

Honestly, I have to lay this at the feet of TPTB. These actions are completely OUTSIDE the Carol they've shown us. It's why I was convinced that she was covering for Lizzie because it was the only thing that made sense and was in-character for Carol to do. Having Carol be the guilty party just smacks of shitty writing to me; a crappy way to get to the GOTCHA! moment they wanted. After the reveal, TPTB have her say that she wasn't worried about Tyrese's reaction which is in direct conflict with her not coming clean as soon as the bodies were found by him. If she wasn't worried, she would have said "oh, yeah...about that....that was me."

 

Bah. I don't think I'm ever going to be over this. I can understand why people hate her character because of it but I simply can't because, quite frankly, I can't give any credence to the execution (no pun intended) of that storyline at all.

 

Hell, now that LIzzie is dead and immune to any punishment from the group, I kind of wish that TPTB would have Carol admit that she had covered for Lizzie. To my knowledge, NOTHING would change except that her characterization doesn't take a beating...

Edited October 19, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[CletusMusashi]

Actually, I rewatched that fight recently.

Tyreese started it, but he was hysterical, and he lashed out, and that happens.

Then Rick defended himself, which also happens. Thing is, though, Rick used to be a cop. Remember how easily he was able to neutralize an armed, two-fisted Merle? Maybe if he wants to be The Law he should still carry a pair of handcuffs. Maybe along with a non-lethal weapon. Of which the prison has plenty. What, he just figured that this society that he was leading was going to magically never have crime in it?

However, since he was being attacked and didn't have cuffs, or pepper spray, or a taser, he defended himself by beating down Tyreese. That also happens. 

But then he continued the attack while Tyreese was on the ground crying.

At no point did he say anything peacekeper-like, such as "Daryl, grab one arm, I'll hold the other."

Daryl was the one who stood there doing nothing. Carol moved right in and started calling Rick off. And only then did Daryl remember "Oh yeah, that's a thing," and follow her lead. Left to his own, without Carol around, Rick's idea of police work would have been to beat someone into a coma for being a little furious about his girlfriend getting murdered.

Now, I agree that Carol was responsible for starting that course of events in the first place. And there are lots of very sound reasons that she was wrong to do so.

But blame her for killing Karen. Blame her for killing David. You can even blame her for killing LIzzie. But don't blame her for the fact that Rick woke up that day thinking he was Shane.

Edited October 19, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[GreyBunny]

But blame her for killing Karen. Blame her for killing David. You can even blame her for killing LIzzie. But don't blame her for the fact that Rick woke up that day thinking he was Shane.

It's not Carol's fault that Rick thought he was Shane (or maybe it was because a grief-crazed widower is now frightened that a serial killer on the loose threatening his children) but she could tried to shut him down from acting like Shane if she had bothered to speak up about killing Karen and David.

"No, stop, don't hit..." is worlds apart from, "No, stop, I killed Karen and David."

Edited October 19, 2014 by GreyBunny

[kikismom]

I still have feel like Carol took the rap for Lizzie.  Regardless of her personality or liking or disliking her.  Not because I'm trying to give her an alibi.

 

But I just cannot get over the bloody scene left at the prison.

 

There was not drops of blood but a big thick smear on the floor. this is the woman who felt compelled to clean up Dale's RV when all the people living in it didn't bother.

Who ironed not only her own family's clothing but Rick's uniform (after laundering it) within 24 hours of the dept.store escape, while at a rock quarry.

And it isn't as if she left that tendency behind with her abusive marriage. She does the walker guts and face smeared with red Georgia clay, but washed it off as soon as she was done at Terminus.

The baby was never less than immaculately clean and well dressed; damn, the kid had on a nice new little cardigan when she's reunited with Rick---and that's while being on a desperate hike through zombieland...she kept the baby cleaner than any of the adults keep themselves.

She's so housewifey-on-top-of-things, she brings Daryl a tray at the farmhouse bedroom (again, no one else bothers) but she brings Merle a tray in his cell while she's stopping in to let him know that she hates him.

Either a huge fail by writers/director in expecting viewers to believe she'd carry out the kills and yet leave a huge disgusting spectacle behind...or more like something done by the kind of person who'd leave a disgusting spectacle of a vivisected rat nailed to a board, or a person who'd greet people with a smile---and blood up to her elbows. Someone who doesn't care and didn't spend thirty years making a home ready for the white-glove test.

I bet whenever she's on her death-bed...she reveals it was Lizzie.

[CletusMusashi]

But would Lizzie have the strength to drag the bodies out afterward?

Oh, who the hell am I kidding? Of course she would. The kid was possessed.

[SoSueMe]

I still have feel like Carol took the rap for Lizzie.  Regardless of her personality or liking or disliking her.  Not because I'm trying to give her an alibi.

 

 

 

Either a huge fail by writers/director in expecting viewers to believe she'd carry out the kills and yet leave a huge disgusting spectacle behind...or more like something done by the kind of person who'd leave a disgusting spectacle of a vivisected rat nailed to a board, or a person who'd greet people with a smile---and blood up to her elbows. Someone who doesn't care and didn't spend thirty years making a home ready for the white-glove test.

I bet whenever she's on her death-bed...she reveals it was Lizzie.

Good points.

 

I am curious as to whether Carol and Tyreese tell the rest of the group the Lizzie story. That would be a strange parallel to the Karen and David disclosure.

[ghoulina]

Bah. I don't think I'm ever going to be over this. I can understand why people hate her character because of it but I simply can't because, quite frankly, I can't give any credence to the execution (no pun intended) of that storyline at all.

 

I agree 100%. I refuse to let that storyline taint Carol, because it's just so not her. I applaud Melissa McBride for doing the best she could with it, because that was a really shitty plot for Carol. 

 

However, I do think she was sorry. After the fight she got really pissed off and pushed the water over. It seemed like she was mad at herself. But then I guess she decided she had to own it, I don't know...I really didn't feel like that scene fit well with her coldness about it when she was with Rick later. I feel like the writers were just all over the place with her in those episodes. 

 

In The Grove Carol seemed more like Carol again. And I didn't see her confession as "suicide by Tyrese". I think, at that point, after all they had been through, she felt he deserved to know. He had talked to her about Karen several times, informed her that he had nightmares. She cared about Tyrese and thought maybe knowing would give him some closure.

 

The way she was almost tearing up when he would talk to her about Karen made me believe there was some remorse and/or empathy there.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I bet whenever she's on her death-bed...she reveals it was Lizzie.

 

Heh. I like it. So unless Carol has a nice, relaxing death and doesn't 'out' Lizzie, I will remain in the "she covered for Lizzie" camp. Because, honestly? It's the only explanation that makes a shred of sense to me.

 

Lizzie was crazy, Lizzie wanted to prove she was strong, Lizzie left messes behind on her previous activities (rat, feeding the walkers, bunnies etc.). Carol had pushed her to be 'harder' and she would probably blame herself if Lizzie translated that to "if I kill these two sick people, I'll save everyone!"

 

If Lizzie did it, all I have to do is handwave away how she moved the bodies herself. Well, she would have pulled Mika into it and two kids moving bodies which have apparently already been relieved of their most of their blood (if the appearance of the cells was anything to go by)? That's not much of a handwave, IMO.

 

But to accept that Carol did it, I have to accept that: even though K&D were already quarantined, Carol felt that they had to die (not very logical); that Carol went in and not only killed them, but up-ended half the furniture and sprayed 3 pints of blood on the floor (which isn't consistent with her killing of Lizzie and Mika's dad - she knows the quick and clean way to kill and K&D were probably too weak to put up a fight); that she dragged the bloody bodies out of the cell (didn't wrap them up in anything to minimize the mess); that she burned the bodies and then left both the charred remains for someone to find and left a bloody trail for extra psychological trauma for any visitors to the sick ones (completely OOC); that she let the incident with Tyrese/Rick/Daryl happen instead of simply admitting that she had killed them (which makes no sense if she felt she was right and wasn't afraid of retribution from Tyrese); and that she let people think there was either a crazy person or murderer in their midst (again, OOC).

 

If Lizzie did it, then Carol's shock and horror at seeing the bodies with Tyrese, Daryl and Rick was genuine. Lizzie, in her craziness, probably later told Carol (thinking she'd be proud). Carol would then go into damage control and take the rap (thus explaining the delay in coming forward to claim responsibility). Carol didn't protect her little girl but she promised Lizzie and Mika's dad that she would look after them. So, her taking the blame makes all kinds of sense to me; she wouldn't want Lizzie to carry that stigma over a misunderstanding (I'm sure Carol didn't realize the extent of Lizzie's psychosis). She accepted the banishment but when she came back, she was with LIzzie and Tyrese, so she certainly would keep up the pretense. But now that Lizzie is gone, she no longer needs to be protected and I can only hope that, now that Carol is back in the fold, TPTB red herring all over this and have Carol reveal that it had been Lizzie all along. THEN they (and the audience) can put this whole thing behind them.

 

Honestly, Lizzie being the killer just...works, y'know?

Edited October 20, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[lulee]

Can we also fanwank that Lizzie's break from reality and delusions also gave her superhero-level strength, allowing her to drag adult bodies around?

[RedheadZombie]

In The Grove Carol seemed more like Carol again. And I didn't see her confession as "suicide by Tyrese".

 

I agree with you, and so does MMB.  She was on TTD after The Grove, and her take was Carol thought Tyreese had the right to kill her.  With a twinkle in her eye, the actress stated she couldn't promise that if Tyreese reached for the gun, Carol wouldn't have leaped over the table to get it back.  By saying that, I felt she was saying that unlike the Carol of the past, Carol was now a fighter.

 

If Lizzie did it, all I have to do is handwave away how she moved the bodies herself. Well, she would have pulled Mika into it and two kids moving bodies which have apparently already been relieved of their most of their blood (if the appearance of the cells was anything to go by)? That's not much of a handwave, IMO.

 

That scenario is just as troublesome, in my opinion.  It means Carol deliberately withheld the knowledge that there was a psychotic killer amongst them.  Even worse - a killer hiding behind the face of a child.  Perhaps if Carol did indeed follow behind Rick and plan to throw herself on the council's mercy - perhaps then I could buy it.

 

Daryl was the one who stood there doing nothing. Carol moved right in and started calling Rick off. And only then did Daryl remember "Oh yeah, that's a thing," and follow her lead. Left to his own, without Carol around, Rick's idea of police work would have been to beat someone into a coma for being a little furious about his girlfriend getting murdered.

 

This is my favorite show, but the writing is very inconsistent.  It's very possible that when they wrote that fight into the script, they themselves didn't know who the killer was.  Either way, I agree that Carol intervened as much as she was able (without spilling the beans) and was clearly very upset.

 

I don't blame Tyreese for his anger - he felt like the killer would go unpunished.  I'm not surprised Daryl was somewhat passive, because it fits in with his being the brunt of his father's and Merle's wrath.  I don't blame Rick for going overboard.  He's long felt responsible for this bunch, and everyone was paranoid and frightened.  I think that was the ultimate crime of killing Karen/David - the destabilization of the group.

[lulee]

To stand by while Rick beat Tyreese to a pulp was low and cowardly.  And when she confessed to Tyreese, it wasn't because she had seen the error of her ways but because she had bought the party line that Tyreese was this raging out of control beast that would grab the gun and put her out of her misery. She was trying to commit suicide-by-Tyreese.

What would the in-episode evidence for this interpretation - regarding her characterization of Tyrese or suicide being her motivation - be?

 

Now Carol's in the catbird seat and she has Rick, the leader she's been trying to undermine, kissing her ass. Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown, Carol honey.

Yeah, we sure did see Carol working to undermine Rick this episode. That was totally her sole objective. ... When was the last time she was actually looking to undermine him? In that conversation with Darryl prior to the group reaching the prison, maybe?

The characterization of Carol has been inconsistent, but this episode we saw someone showing discomfort with her situation and hesitant to open up -- so we don't know the source of her sense of conflict  - guilt over Karen and David? anxiety over being accepted into the group? depression over Lizzie and Mika? Some combination?

We saw her lingering over Gabriel's recopying of the Bible and pausing on the all-caps "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" and I think the rejection of her watch from Rick was further rejection of who she was back when she had that watch. Doesn't mean she likes who she is now - or is a *better* person, but she knows she's different.

[NoWillToResist]

 

That scenario is just as troublesome, in my opinion.  It means Carol deliberately withheld the knowledge that there was a psychotic killer amongst them.

 

For me, I can simply excuse that as her not realizing that Lizzie was a psychotic killer. Hell, even for much of The Grove, having watched LIzzie PLAY with a walker, Carol believed that the girl was simply confused, not batshit murderously insane. Lizzie was a child and IMO the default assumption for a child is innocence.

 

Unfortunately, Mika had to die before Carol realized that Lizzie was a dangerous-to-others-because-she-can't-be-reasoned-with kind of crazy. Hell, that would just add to Carol's guilt: if she'd outed Lizzie earlier, sweet Mika would probably be alive...

[kikismom]

Can we also fanwank that Lizzie's break from reality and delusions also gave her superhero-level strength, allowing her to drag adult bodies around?

 

 

For me, I can simply excuse that as her not realizing that Lizzie was a psychotic killer. Hell, even for much of The Grove, having watched LIzzie PLAY with a walker, Carol believed that the girl was simply confused, not batshit murderously insane. Lizzie was a child and IMO the default assumption for a child is innocence.

 

Unfortunately, Mika had to die before Carol realized that Lizzie was a dangerous-to-others-because-she-can't-be-reasoned-with kind of crazy. Hell, that would just add to Carol's guilt: if she'd outed Lizzie earlier, sweet Mika would probably be alive...

I have 4 year old niece and nephew who think it's funny to go up to you and say "I can pick you up!" and wrap their arms around your legs and literally lift you off the ground. We scream oh don't do that you'll hurt yourself and they just laugh.

Plus---as they discovered when building the Pyramids, you can move real heavy objects much easier when they are dragged over a slick surface than a dry one.

 

Remember on the hike on the tracks, when Carol said Sophia didn't have a mean bone in her body, and Lizzie says that's why she isn't here anymore?

 

As far as Carol hiding a psycho killer,  one of my siblings worked 20 years as an investigator and doesn't even blink about parents refusing to believe their beloved darling could do something horrible (not to mention wives being in denial about husbands, etc.)  And it isn't just the ones who knowingly lie about their precious one's sickness...often half the reason Precious is so sick is that nobody intervenes when there was a chance to fix those loose screws in Precious' head. If you let your conscious mind acknowledge that your kid is a sociopath, then you have to realize that you did things---and didn't do other things---that allowed this to go nuclear, therefore you are also part of the horrible blame---and you are the worst of all mothers/fathers.

 

I think when Carol said she did kill Karvid, she does see that as a truth in a 'big-picture' way. And after all, even the lawbooks see the parent/guardian responsible for the criminal behavior of someone that age. If your kid spray-paints the neighbors car, you can't say I didn't do it and good luck getting money from my eight-year-old son...the law says that in the big picture so to speak, you were supposed to be overseeing the kid; therefore it's your fault, and you pay the penalty.

 

I would bet money that (if these were real people), Carol covered for Sophia multiple times...when you are scared of the consequences your daughter might face (and your husband is a freak who would simply need a bowl of spilled cereal or a new toy broken as an excuse to go off on the girl) you step in and say oh foolish me I don't know how I did that, my mistake!

 

***I am not saying Rick, Tyreese, Daryl, or anyone else at the prison was an Ed-type freak*** ; I am saying that she would have been aware--even subconsciously---of the what do you do with a grade-school age nutjob---and if we can't even answer that in this world, there would only be one option in a ZA. Like many adults who don't want to face the reality of a sicko child...you refuse to think of that, you keep hoping for a way something will get better.

 

But I'm someone who disagrees with people who reviewed the Lizzie/Mika's father dies episode as "then he tells Lizzie to take care of her sister." No, he did say take care of your sister but he didn't say which one. People assume it would be the older girl. I think it was Mika.

Edited October 20, 2014 by kikismom

[NoWillToResist]

 

But I'm someone who disagrees with people who reviewed the Lizzie/Mika's father dies episode as "then he tells Lizzie to take care of her sister." No, he did say take care of your sister but he didn't say which one. People assume it would be the older girl. I think it was Mika.

 

Oooh, nice!

 

So, having watched the latest episode, exactly how much does Carol feel that she doesn't deserve to be with these people? I mean, Jesus! Tyrese tells her that the others will just have to accept what she did and she's all "um...no they don't"; she rebuffs Rick's thanks and praise and basically denies that she's some hero; she rebuffs Daryl's compliments and praise, saying that they got lucky and should all be dead; she's closed off from everyone and isn't circulating to take care of people like she used to; she's keeping to herself and keeps removing herself from the others; she looks like she was about to run off but is stopped by Daryl. Dang. Thank goodness for the car with the cross on it! Hopefully having the rescue of Beth to focus on will pull Carol out of her depression; maybe if she can save Beth, she can forgive herself a little...

 

That said, I am loving the quiet, loyal support that Daryl is giving her; he was like a stoic, protective dog, hovering near her, at the ready if she needed anything. He didn't join Rick's supply run (which he is almost always involved with) so that he could haul water with her. Awww. So sweet. He's been in that dark place and she didn't let him pull away. Shoe's on the other foot now and I couldn't help but notice that he seemed very aware of her mental fragility and was extra 'present', if you will.

[LilySilver]

Heh. I like it. So unless Carol has a nice, relaxing death and doesn't 'out' Lizzie, I will remain in the "she covered for Lizzie" camp. Because, honestly? It's the only explanation that makes a shred of sense to me.

 

Lizzie was crazy, Lizzie wanted to prove she was strong, Lizzie left messes behind on her previous activities (rat, feeding the walkers, bunnies etc.). Carol had pushed her to be 'harder' and she would probably blame herself if Lizzie translated that to "if I kill these two sick people, I'll save everyone!"

 

If Lizzie did it, all I have to do is handwave away how she moved the bodies herself. Well, she would have pulled Mika into it and two kids moving bodies which have apparently already been relieved of their most of their blood (if the appearance of the cells was anything to go by)? That's not much of a handwave, IMO.

 

But to accept that Carol did it, I have to accept that: even though K&D were already quarantined, Carol felt that they had to die (not very logical); that Carol went in and not only killed them, but up-ended half the furniture and sprayed 3 pints of blood on the floor (which isn't consistent with her killing of Lizzie and Mika's dad - she knows the quick and clean way to kill and K&D were probably too weak to put up a fight); that she dragged the bloody bodies out of the cell (didn't wrap them up in anything to minimize the mess); that she burned the bodies and then left both the charred remains for someone to find and left a bloody trail for extra psychological trauma for any visitors to the sick ones (completely OOC); that she let the incident with Tyrese/Rick/Daryl happen instead of simply admitting that she had killed them (which makes no sense if she felt she was right and wasn't afraid of retribution from Tyrese); and that she let people think there was either a crazy person or murderer in their midst (again, OOC).

 

If Lizzie did it, then Carol's shock and horror at seeing the bodies with Tyrese, Daryl and Rick was genuine. Lizzie, in her craziness, probably later told Carol (thinking she'd be proud). Carol would then go into damage control and take the rap (thus explaining the delay in coming forward to claim responsibility). Carol didn't protect her little girl but she promised Lizzie and Mika's dad that she would look after them. So, her taking the blame makes all kinds of sense to me; she wouldn't want Lizzie to carry that stigma over a misunderstanding (I'm sure Carol didn't realize the extent of Lizzie's psychosis). She accepted the banishment but when she came back, she was with LIzzie and Tyrese, so she certainly would keep up the pretense. But now that Lizzie is gone, she no longer needs to be protected and I can only hope that, now that Carol is back in the fold, TPTB red herring all over this and have Carol reveal that it had been Lizzie all along. THEN they (and the audience) can put this whole thing behind them.

 

Honestly, Lizzie being the killer just...works, y'know?

Except that Lizzie was obsessed with letting people turn, and convinced that the walkers were only misunderstood. So why would it make sense for her to kill two people (with you so far), then apparently take care of the double-tap and then drag them out and burn them to keep others from falling ill, dying, and turning?  The killing part I can buy; the motivation (protecting everyone from death, when she thinks turning is super-awesome) and the execution (keeping Karvid from turning) doesn't make sense for Lizzie either.  

 

In the writers' defense, I've tried to come up with another way for Carol to do something on the spectrum between morally questionable and heinous--enough for her to have a parting of ways with Rick, but something the viewer and the group could still come to understand and accept on some level--and really came up empty. I put more time into thinking about it that a person ought to, and I'm almost positive I put more time into it than the writers did, lol.  So for the situation they wanted to set up, I think they just came up with something that would work and didn't anticipate how nitpicky the more rabid among us might be about the whole thing. Also don't think they anticipated how much some viewers would love Carol by that time.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Except that Lizzie was obsessed with letting people turn, and convinced that the walkers were only misunderstood. So why would it make sense for her to kill two people (with you so far), then apparently take care of the double-tap and then drag them out and burn them to keep others from falling ill, dying, and turning?  The killing part I can buy; the motivation (protecting everyone from death, when she thinks turning is super-awesome) and the execution (keeping Karvid from turning) doesn't make sense for Lizzie either.

 

Wait now. You've given me an idea...

 

What if Lizzie took Mika to visit Karen and David, intending to kill K&D to prove that walkers were really just cuddle monsters (in character for Lizzie); K&D turn and attack the girls (explains the mess/chaos in the cells); MIKA takes them both out. The girls take the bodies out together (explains how the bodies were moved). Wow. I think you've made me come up with an even better theory...thank you! :)

[kikismom]

Except that Lizzie was obsessed with letting people turn, and convinced that the walkers were only misunderstood. So why would it make sense for her to kill two people (with you so far), then apparently take care of the double-tap and then drag them out and burn them to keep others from falling ill, dying, and turning?  The killing part I can buy; the motivation (protecting everyone from death, when she thinks turning is super-awesome) and the execution (keeping Karvid from turning) doesn't make sense for Lizzie either.  

 

I see it as explainable from the evidence left behind; i.e. the huge mess of blood and the knocked over furniture.

 

If Carol took them out, as Rick imagined...simple, quick, not messy.

From the state of the scene...something wilder went down.

 

We do know Lizzie was okay to kill walkers that were after Mika. Which made Carol give her a side-eye. (Surprised me, since Carol's reaction should have been relief and happiness that Lizzie did it.)

 

We know Lizzie liked to kill things that didn't turn...like baby bunnies in a log, or a rat on a board. Lizzie didn't just like reanimation. Lizzie had likes before the ZA  I suspect.

 

I'll posit that Lizzie did some kills, maybe even, um, exploratory surgery cough cough and then it gets out of control and either Mika stepped in and got threatened with danger, or Lizzie feared Carol would get mad and she just thinks no one will know if she burns them, but leaving "stuff" behind is something she did before at the prison, and after on the road trip (bunnies). Someone who is not bothered can make a weak guess at what other people would not want to see, but won't really ever get it right.

 

I can't see another thing that people didn't comment on; I don't believe Carol would start the fire and leave the plastic gas can right nearby.

 

 

 

ETA: While I'm typing you connected with the same thoughts I was getting! We're getting lots of mind-melds on this forum! Cool! :-)

Edited October 21, 2014 by kikismom

[RedheadZombie]

In the writers' defense, I've tried to come up with another way for Carol to do something on the spectrum between morally questionable and heinous--enough for her to have a parting of ways with Rick, but something the viewer and the group could still come to understand and accept on some level--and really came up empty. I put more time into thinking about it that a person ought to, and I'm almost positive I put more time into it than the writers did, lol.  So for the situation they wanted to set up, I think they just came up with something that would work and didn't anticipate how nitpicky the more rabid among us might be about the whole thing. Also don't think they anticipated how much some viewers would love Carol by that time.

 

 

Sometimes I think they over complicate things.  Why couldn't Carol have become separated during the supply run with Rick?  Everything could have played out exactly the same - except they would have stayed truer to the characters of Carol and Rick.  It still would have been poignant that Carol helped save Judith.  Rick knows he was unable to save Carol's daughter, but she saved his.  They could have had a shared moment where he again apologizes for his part in losing Sophia, and Carol tells him she never blamed him, she blamed herself, etc.  Instead, they've fired up more hatred for Carol, and left us with a character prepared to go rogue, and destabilize the entire group.  That is unless you fanwank like me - Carol didn't kill them and I don't want to talk about it.  My fingers are in my ears and I can't hear you...........

[ghoulina]

So, having watched the latest episode, exactly how much does Carol feel that she doesn't deserve to be with these people? I mean, Jesus! Tyrese tells her that the others will just have to accept what she did and she's all "um...no they don't"; she rebuffs Rick's thanks and praise and basically denies that she's some hero; she rebuffs Daryl's compliments and praise, saying that they got lucky and should all be dead; she's closed off from everyone and isn't circulating to take care of people like she used to; she's keeping to herself and keeps removing herself from the others; she looks like she was about to run off but is stopped by Daryl. Dang

 

I don't think the issue is so much Karvid, but Lizzie and Mika. I don't think I have seen a single person say that Carol killing Lizzie was wrong, but Carol may not feel that way. She may not have felt she had any other choice, but that doesn't make what she did any easier. And she might very well be putting a lot of blame on herself for not recognizing Lizzie's issues earlier; she might blame herself for Mika's death as well. Right now, Carol has a lot of death riding on her shoulders, and no one in the group, save Ty, knows about half of it. I think she just wants to forget, but how can she - when all the prison people, especially Tyrese, remind her of those girls? Or maybe she would like to talk about it, to get it off her chest, but she's terrified of what the others would think. 

 

Honestly, I think what Carol had to do in the Grove might be one of the most traumatic moments on this show...and it only happened days before. I can't blame her at all before being in a funk, a daze, a mute/uncaring state.