Carol: One Day You Just Change

[David T. Cole]

She's my fav. So glad she's back!

[Kierstyn]

Ditto that.  It was interesting that they chose to drop her right back in with Tyrese. Maybe a touch predictable, but I am looking forward to seeing where this will go.

[Kristen]

I'd completely forgotten that Rick never got around to telling Tyreese about Carol supposedly killing Karen and David. Honestly, I don't think she did. I have this strong feeling that it was budding psychopath Lizzie, and Carol burned the bodies as a convenient cover-up because they were sick.

Anyway! That moment when Tyreese turned around and Carol was standing there with the girls was so amazing...then awkward...then sweet and amazing. I've enjoyed her character's development since season 1.

[David T. Cole]

Carol, getting shit done since the apocalypse.

[Portia]

Carol, getting shit done since the apocalypse.

And how.  Holy crap.

[Omar G.]

I feel like if the group gets back together and they had a vote as to whether Carol or Rick should lead, Carol would/should win.

[Pete Martell]

I feel like if the group gets back together and they had a vote as to whether Carol or Rick should lead, Carol would/should win.

I'm not sure if Carol has ever been a leader of the group. If anything she's avoided that role. She refused to get involved when the farm group argued about Randall's execution. She objected to Rick's leadership, but she had no other idea of what they should do. At the prison, she taught kids how to use weapons, but only without parents knowing. When the virus hit, she could have suggested they kill Karen and David. Instead she killed them and stayed quiet until after Tyreese went on a rampage. She could have gone back to the prison to get Lizzie and Mika or to plead her case. Instead she stayed away. 

I think Carol's a very determined and strong woman, which is good and fascinating to watch, but is it in a way that leads others or helps others? I felt like The Grove was her realizing that's not entirely the case. She wanted Lizzie and Mika to be strong, and where did that get them?

Her confessing to Tyreese was the first time I can remember her being so direct with her actions and her feelings in a very, very long time. I hope this is a step forward for her.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Pete Martell

[NoWillToResist]

I feel that, as a Carol fan, I kind of got screwed in S4. I love Carol and Melissa McBride and she was barely in this season! I hope her airtime increases in S5.

Love that she went from a cowed, abused woman to a strong woman who actually acquired a ton of appropriate skills (while still retaining much of her ability to connect with people). Need food cooked? Carol can help with that. Need someone to lay down some gunfire? Carol can help with that. Need some laundry or sewing done? Carol can help with that. Need the water pipes to be maintained? Carol can help with that. Need someone to look after your kid(s)? Carol can help with that. Need medical attention? Carol can probably help with that. Need a shoulder to cry on? Carol can help with that. Need someone to fuck up a walker? Carol can help with that.

Honestly, is there anything that she CAN'T do? And yet, despite her myriad skills, she doesn't come off as this implausibly perfect Mary Sue character. MMB keeps her complex and very compelling, IMO.

Also, on the shallow end...I think MMB is beautiful to look at. Great skin, gorgeous bone structure, lovely smile, amazing eyes.

[Pete Martell]

I wish we'd seen more of her too. I was so scared they were going to kill her as some "noble sacrifice" where she saves Judith. I don't want to see that. I want to see her back in the group as she, and they, have changed so much. Her interaction with Rick in particular wil fascinate me, as she's softening while he's hardening.

[Ocean Chick]

I'm really excited to see Carol back with the group, and to see how they react to this new, stronger Carol.  And especially how Rick will react to her, now that he's had his own awakening as to the monster inside him - the need to do whatever it takes in order to save the ones closest to you.  Which is exactly what Carol did with Karen and David.  Tyreese understands that now, after "The Grove".  And Rick will understand it, after "A".  He can no longer be "just a farmer", much as Hershel wanted him to be.  Poor Hershel - this new world ate him up and spat him out (via The Gov), much like it did Dale.

[lawless]

And especially how Rick will react to her, now that he's had his own awakening as to the monster inside him - the need to do whatever it takes in order to save the ones closest to you.  Which is exactly what Carol did with Karen and David.  Tyreese understands that now, after "The Grove".

 

I, personally, don't quite see the situation as the same as Karen and David, and do not agree with her choice, but largely because I think they could have successfully quarantined Karen and David -- given that they lived in a freaking PRISON at the time, and because Karen and David were innocent of any malice or intent to harm, and did nothing actively to harm others.  They just had the misfortune to become ill, and in such as way as to be liabilities.  (However, I also think Herschel went way too far the other direction, and should at least have ensured everyone was locked in their cells in the sick ward.) 

However, after everything that has happened, while I still think it was the wrong thing to do, I feel like it's a much closer call than I used to, and I think though Carol was mistaken, it was a mistake and not maliciousness on her part.  I also think she's learned a little too, about the important of preserving your morality and not surviving at any cost, from little Mika of all people.  I think Tyrese sees that. Plus, there just aren't that many decent people left anymore, and on balance, I think that's where Carol falls.  Anyway, to the extent that she had any need to "pay" for what she did, I think the experience she had with Mika and Lizzie certainly covered it, and hopefully helped her right her moral compass, to the extent it needed righting.  I know some folks don't think that it did need righting, I happened to think that it did, but now I think that to the extent she needed a course correction, it was more minor than I initially believed. I think that's how Rick would view it too.

[Milaxx]

I, personally, don't quite see the situation as the same as Karen and David, and do not agree with her choice, but largely because I think they could have successfully quarantined Karen and David -- given that they lived in a freaking PRISON at the time, and because Karen and David were innocent of any malice or intent to harm, and did nothing actively to harm others.  They just had the misfortune to become ill, and in such as way as to be liabilities.  (However, I also think Herschel went way too far the other direction, and should at least have ensured everyone was locked in their cells in the sick ward.)

 

I see it as part of Carol "get shit done" attitude. It appeared to me that most of them did really believe Karen & David would live through the night but were afraid to do anything about. Other wise why not use the IV kit, intubation set up and ambu bags that mysteriously appeared when it was Glenn & Sasha rapidly facing end stage of the virus? Doc S knew that the Harry Potter patient zero kid basically drowned in his own blood and could see the signs simply by listening to their chest with his stethoscope. I don't think any of the group had the nerve to put anyone out of their misery. It was a big production just to put down Lizzie's dad after he had gotten bitten.

[HighMaintenance]

I think Melissa McBride's acting abilities are probably what the show needs more of.

Carol has always been a favorite character of mine and I think the show has not used her well or enough until the last part of season 4. I know that some viewers just don't like her character, but I think the show needs a pragmatic person - taking out Karen and David in the prison may have not been the ethical thing to do, but it was honestly better than letting them possibly infect the rest of the group.  

I would like to see her reunite with the group, especially Rick (who probably regrets evicting her from the prison) and see how they interact.

[NoWillToResist]

 

taking out Karen and David in the prison may have not been the ethical thing to do, but it was honestly better than letting them possibly infect the rest of the group.

I personally didn't have a real problem with WHY she did what she did. The problem I have is the way in which it was written because, IMO, it made Carol act out of character, just so that TPTB could be all "gotcha! It was Carol!"

I just can't see Carol leaving that mess behind. She's never behaved like some callous monster (IMO) yet I'm to believe that she left the burned and still smoking bodies out in the open to be found, with a disgusting and traumatic blood trail from the cells to the corpses. Really? Did she think no one would notice???? She didn't think someone would be traumatized by that discovery? And that it would then further traumatize everyone believing there's some callous murderer in their midst?

When the bodies were inevitably found, she said NOTHING while Tyrese beat up Rick and started attacking Daryl (even though she later claims to Rick that she's not worried about Tyrese's reaction)? Really?

This was what made me believe that she was covering for Lizzie after the fact. I just could not fathom Carol killing K&D and then leaving the 'crime scene' in such a horrific state and keeping quiet while everyone worried and panicked. But apparently she did, so I'm having to handwave it away.

Edited April 10, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[HighMaintenance]

I'd agree on the surface, it doesn't really seem to fit Carol's character.  And the way it was done didn't seem logical - leaving a trail of blood, leaving crispy corpses behind to be found.  However, I do blame the show's writers in the respect that they really had never fleshed Carol out.  She was always in the background tending to Judith, teaching the kids how to be stabby,  helping clear walkers around the camp/prison etc.  However, there were occasional hints here and there about how brutal and pragmatic she had become, but it was pretty subtle.  My first inclination was way back in season one when she had to ensure that Ed wouldn't come back as a walker and she went to town on his skull with a pickaxe.  It even made Daryl blanch a bit.  This is also the lady who kept a grenade in her purse for a few episodes -  the group would have been goners if they hadn't had it to break out of the CDC.  She also shows her ability to be sneaky and lethal during season 3 when she advised Andrea to kill the Gov'nuh after sex - so he wouldn't see it coming.  Andrea couldn't do it, of course.. but I bet Carol would have.

[kikismom]

I haven't forgotten that she was the only one to ever tell Rick and Lori to get Carl under control, the only one to have enough nerve to speak her thoughts about Rick's Little-Napoleon flip-out on the escape from the farm; her moment of handy advice to Andrea was great and I agree if it was Carol she'd have done it. I've always liked Carol and her years of abuse just taught her to foresee trouble brewing and keep her expression still and not reveal her feelings. Pragmatic is the right word--when she was expecting to help Lori in childbirth Carol had the no-nonsense, no-squeamish attitude to practice on a walker. People call her cold; but she just got adjusted to the ZA sooner than they did. Maybe the others seem "warmer" but they also hung on to illusions until they had to learn the hard way, and then did things as bad or worse than Carol. Jeez, Carl shot a boy that was surrendering and they all got over that so fast that 5 minutes later they were done talking about it. When Sophia got lost, you can argue whether Rick was right or wrong to leave a little girl under a tree root in a swamp, alone; But no one said boo to Dale, who quite frankly could have prevented Sophia's disappearance and T-Dawg's injury, and subsequently Carl's shooting...if he had just done his job as look-out half competently. Even at the quarry when he's lookout, he's got his binoculars trained on Amy and Andrea in the boat, or he's taking a stroll up the hill to talk to Jim. I don't care if there were cars on the highway, he was on top of a freakin' RV! How do you not notice a herd in time to give people a chance? Carol would have kicked ass as a lookout, but of course they'd never have let her. Men like Dale and Shane can screw up for weeks and get people killed...but Carol does something one time and she's Too Dangerous To Be Around The Group. (blows raspberry).

[NoWillToResist]

 

However, there were occasional hints here and there about how brutal and pragmatic she had become

Oh certainly...and that's why I don't have trouble with the fact that Carol killed K&D hoping it would save everyone else. That is very IN character for Carol, IMO. For me though, Carol's pragmatism never made her...mean(?) or thoughtless towards others. And that's why I had such trouble equating that bloody scene with Carol. She left that mess for anyone to find and she didn't confess right away to take away the pain and fear her actions caused. That doesn't gel with the Carol I felt I'd been shown. A girl who clearly has emotional problems, only a passing familiarity with sanity and a tendency to leave her bloody science experiments out in the open? Yes. Carol? Not so much.

I was a little confused though when she mentioned to Tyrese that she had been outside the prison when the Governor attacked. Had she planned on 'coming home' and letting the council decide whether she could stay or was she honouring the banishment while trying to keep an eye on the girls she'd promised to look after?

Edited April 11, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[SpaghettiTuesdays]

Watching Carol grow as I binge on episodes from the beginning is amazing. She's quite the butterfly.

[walnutqueen]

I could watch Carol for days.  I think she is beautiful - even on the inside.  [/girlcrush]

[eejm]

It seemed as though when the writing team figured out that The Governor attacked the prison and the group scattered (which I think was something they planned very early in the season), for some reason they weren't quite sure what to do with Carol.  So they went back and wrote Carol's killing of Karen and David and banishment to put her out of the prison when the attack occurred.  This would put her in a good position to meet back up with someone on the team who didn't know she was banished.  The fact that it was Tyreese, Lizzie, Mika, and Judith worked for a number of reasons.  

1.  Carol had a very close relationship with the kids, who would be happy to see her.

2.  Tyreese was doing okay managing on his own, but traveling with a baby and two little girls (one of whom is a freaking psycho) is obviously tough and he welcomed the extra help.

3.  Tyreese didn't know of her banishment and would warmly accept her back.

4.  The storyline with Lizzie showed just how far Carol would go to protect the group - even if it meant killing a kid and being reminded of Sophia's death all over again.  

5.  Carol meeting up with Tyreese gave her a chance to confess what she did at the prison.  They had formed enough of a bond over what they'd gone through that Tyreese forgave her.  He was seriously pissed, but he clearly understood why she did what she did.

6.  It put Carol in a position to possibly save the group at Terminus, if she isn't there already herself.

Rick spent season 4 trying to decide what kind of person he was, how it affected the group, and if he was personally OK with the lengths he'd go to to protect himself and his friends.  Carol was basically on the exact same path and learned many of the same lessons that Rick did.  I think both have become stronger people as a result of what they went through this season.

[kikismom]

I just read a theory that the leapfrogging timeline was still on at the end; that is, someone postulated that only Carol and Tyrees (and girls) saw the smoke, that it wasn't from the burning shelter of Daryl and Beth; it was from Terminus burning down after Rick's group fought their way out. According to this theory, that's why Carol and co. didn't run into anyone, the person who posted this also claims that one of the smokin' walkers they encountered was wearing riot gear. I don't see it myself, but maybe another person can.

I am interested in the timeline confusion possibly giving Kirkman et al  the way to get out of this puzzle.

[eejm]

I just read a theory that the leapfrogging timeline was still on at the end; that is, someone postulated that only Carol and Tyrees (and girls) saw the smoke, that it wasn't from the burning shelter of Daryl and Beth; it was from Terminus burning down after Rick's group fought their way out. According to this theory, that's why Carol and co. didn't run into anyone, the person who posted this also claims that one of the smokin' walkers they encountered was wearing riot gear. I don't see it myself, but maybe another person can.

I am interested in the timeline confusion possibly giving Kirkman et al  the way to get out of this puzzle.

Huh, interesting.  It would be a way to get everyone out of Terminus, but whatever theoretically destroys Terminus probably wasn't simple.  Rick and his crew would have to fight their way out, and it would probably be long, bloody, and involved.  If Carol and Tyreese are seeing smoke from a destroyed Terminus, that would remove them from a significant amount of the action, meaning we likely wouldn't see Carol or Tyreese for a significant amount of time, unless the whole thing ordeal is seen in flashbacks.  

[kikismom]

Remember that milk powder is possible to use as incendiary explosive; mythbusters did it once, and some teacher does it on youtube. Kirkman said it would somehow be resolved quite quickly since next season we would see the characters in more locations than ever before in the past 4 years (which I think means we're heading on Eugene's mission). Carol and Tyreese could be found if for instance Rick's group have driven out the Termites in the fight, and have stayed there to maybe free the other captives etc.? Or, as you said, flashbacks...and we all know this show likes to do that.

Edited April 12, 2014 by kikismom

[HighMaintenance]

I don't mind the flashbacks, it does make the show a bit more interesting, trying to figure out what happened when.  But please TWD showrunners, don't go overboard with that theme and make it a confusing mess like Lost.

[kikismom]

My theory on Lost is that they didn't expect the show to be picked up for another season, and not knowing what else to do, killed time with a confusing muddle while they tried to find their way out of their own mess. All that talk about a complete story "book" having been written before the pilot is just an excuse. If they do it with TWD we riot!

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

[ZombieWoof]

Remember that milk powder is possible to use as incendiary explosive; mythbusters did it once, and some teacher does it on youtube. Kirkman said it would somehow be resolved quite quickly since next season we would see the characters in more locations than ever before in the past 4 years (which I think means we're heading on Eugene's mission). Carol and Tyreese could be found if for instance Rick's group have driven out the Termites in the fight, and have stayed there to maybe free the other captives etc.? Or, as you said, flashbacks...and we all know this show likes to do that.

I think this is the video. I wouldn't put it past Eugene to know how to do this!

[halgia]

I wouldn't put it past Eugene to know how to do this!

Yeah, this is exactly the kind of semi-sciencey internet thing that Eugene would know how to do.

[Pete Martell]

I haven't forgotten that she was the only one to ever tell Rick and Lori to get Carl under control, the only one to have enough nerve to speak her thoughts about Rick's Little-Napoleon flip-out on the escape from the farm; her moment of handy advice to Andrea was great and I agree if it was Carol she'd have done it. I've always liked Carol and her years of abuse just taught her to foresee trouble brewing and keep her expression still and not reveal her feelings. Pragmatic is the right word--when she was expecting to help Lori in childbirth Carol had the no-nonsense, no-squeamish attitude to practice on a walker. People call her cold; but she just got adjusted to the ZA sooner than they did. Maybe the others seem "warmer" but they also hung on to illusions until they had to learn the hard way, and then did things as bad or worse than Carol. Jeez, Carl shot a boy that was surrendering and they all got over that so fast that 5 minutes later they were done talking about it. When Sophia got lost, you can argue whether Rick was right or wrong to leave a little girl under a tree root in a swamp, alone; But no one said boo to Dale, who quite frankly could have prevented Sophia's disappearance and T-Dawg's injury, and subsequently Carl's shooting...if he had just done his job as look-out half competently. Even at the quarry when he's lookout, he's got his binoculars trained on Amy and Andrea in the boat, or he's taking a stroll up the hill to talk to Jim. I don't care if there were cars on the highway, he was on top of a freakin' RV! How do you not notice a herd in time to give people a chance? Carol would have kicked ass as a lookout, but of course they'd never have let her. Men like Dale and Shane can screw up for weeks and get people killed...but Carol does something one time and she's Too Dangerous To Be Around The Group. (blows raspberry).

I'm confused by this. Rick and Hershel were concerned enough to where Hershel encouraged Rick to change everything about how he (and Carl) existed within the prison.

The problem with Carol's advice that you mention in the first sentences is that it was limited to essentially talking at people, more than actually being involved. Carl was a brat to her, Carol was understandably hurt and said as much to Lori and Rick, but it made no difference, because by that time she no longer had any relationship with Lori or Rick or Carl, so it was just them asking Carl to mind his manners, while they were dealing with a bunch of other problems (Shane, the baby, staying on the farm, etc.). Carol's questioning of Rick's leadership would have worked mostly if she'd had strong plans of her own, beyond wanting to leave with Daryl. Carol had said around the time of all the hand-wringing over what to do with Randall that she wanted no part of making decisions like those. And I understood why. But that's part of what being a leader is about. 

Carol simultaneously was not part of the group, yet wanted the group to do what she wanted, because she wanted it. 

Her never fully being a part of the group finally blew up when she killed Karen and David and kept quiet as people were beating each other senseless. One of her closest friends (Daryl) was in the middle of that mess and could have gotten hurt. When she did tell the truth, it was to Rick, and she seemed to assume he wouldn't tell Tyreese. Which would have meant again going against group dynamics for what she thought was right, even though her actions were detrimental to the group.

I think one of the lessons Carol may have learned this season was that keeping to yourself and making decisions based on what you think is right and assume must be right for others can have consequences. She was somewhat distant from Lizzie and Mika and focused on making the girls strong, because of her memories of Sophia. This meant that she was blindsided by what Lizzie did. 

I think Carol had a lot on her plate and I don't envy the decisions she had to make, but I feel like she is learning the limits of the "I have to do everything, I must do everything by myself, for myself, I must keep quiet about this, this is for everyone, whether they know it or not," mindset, and a start of her opening herself up more. She may never be a part of the group, she may not want to be, but her opening up to Tyreese and Tyreese validating that choice was a huge step forward.

[kikismom]

What I mean by getting over it it that first Rick wouldn't believe, then, as you mentioned it became about Rick interacting with his son differently. Not, oh he shot an innocent person he isn't safe to be around people. It became about giving Carl a chance, not banishing him.

Carol's advice being just talking at people was all she could do; she couldn't be involved with discipling Carl because that was his parents job; whether she still had a relationship with Lori or Rick shouldn't be necessary...Carl had mouthed off, he also took a gun from the RV, later he took another gun from Daryl's saddlebag, he never stayed where he was told to but constantly wandered off causing the whole group to endure another "Where's Carl?!" interruption. I don't think anybody would need to be close to the parents to say 'Get that damn kid under control before he gets someone killed"...which is what he eventually did, with Dale.On the highway Lori is telling Carl to stay where she can see him; instead he's opening doors with the dead inside, could have been a zombie, so he can lift an arsenal to mess around with. If I was a complete stranger I'd have a right to tell his parents to get their kid under control or I'd do it myself. If they failed because they had personal issues to work out that they considered more important than their young son stealing firearms the failure would be on them, not anyone who finally spoke up about it. Carol's advice to Andrea wasn't just talking at her; she talked to Andrea ,who was listening, and did almost do it (and later wished she had).

As far as Carol questioning Rick's leadership, Maggie and Glenn also suggested taking off on their own. And during the war with Woodbury, Herschel asked twice for Rick to let the Governor have the prison, and just leave. He didn't have a strong plan what to do next, but leaving would have been a start and he'd still be alive today, as well as other people. I don't think if he had a strong plan it would matter; just like at the waterfall at the end of season 2, Rick didn't give anyone even a chance to start planning something else. Dale pointed it out--Rick misunderstood Dale because he cut him off and wouldn't let him finish his idea. So it's also Rick who wanted the group to do what he wanted, because he wanted it.

Interesting that Carol doing what she thought was right, and assumed must be right for others, having consequences...or... I must keep quiet about this --this is for everyone whether they know it or not...I guess I don't see that being much different from Rick: He knew they were all infected, but kept that knowledge secret and later excused his own choice by saying it was for their own good. (I don't know how it helped them, it certainly could have caused needless tragedy if someone died accidentally in a fall or something and turned and attacked people who weren't prepared.). Rick comes back from getting Herschel in town and isn't interesting in checking how others feel that he's made a unilateral decision to have someone in the back of the vehicle--Randall a member of a gang that tried to kill them, and whose presence on the farm could have got them killed.. Rick decided to throw Michonne out, using Merle, and didn't bother to let most of the others know because he decided... that was for their own good. (He did tell Herschel and Daryl--and Herschel told him he was wrong, and Daryl said it wasn't the kind of thing they were about. But Rick did it anyway.) Rick didn't ask anyone else's opinion on throwing Carol out, not even Daryl. He did it on his own, telling Carol it was ...for the good of other people, none of whom were asked or informed. When others questioned not even going back for Andrea, he said she's either dead or gone somewhere they were not allowed to go back. they would be in too much danger. Some viewers agree with this, yet it's doubtful if Lori or Carl were left behind that Rick would have the same response; Lori and Carl would be searched for, and hang the danger or it. He shocks the group when he admits stabbing Shane to death, but tells them he "did it for you people!" I can't see Carol's attitude as proof of her flaws but with Rick it's leadership,

[Pete Martell]

Interesting that Carol doing what she thought was right, and assumed must be right for others, having consequences...or... I must keep quiet about this --this is for everyone whether they know it or not...I guess I don't see that being much different from Rick: He knew they were all infected, but kept that knowledge secret and later excused his own choice by saying it was for their own good. (I don't know how it helped them, it certainly could have caused needless tragedy if someone died accidentally in a fall or something and turned and attacked people who weren't prepared.). Rick comes back from getting Herschel in town and isn't interesting in checking how others feel that he's made a unilateral decision to have someone in the back of the vehicle--Randall a member of a gang that tried to kill them, and whose presence on the farm could have got them killed.. Rick decided to throw Michonne out, using Merle, and didn't bother to let most of the others know because he decided... that was for their own good. (He did tell Herschel and Daryl--and Herschel told him he was wrong, and Daryl said it wasn't the kind of thing they were about. But Rick did it anyway.) Rick didn't ask anyone else's opinion on throwing Carol out, not even Daryl. He did it on his own, telling Carol it was ...for the good of other people, none of whom were asked or informed. When others questioned not even going back for Andrea, he said she's either dead or gone somewhere they were not allowed to go back. they would be in too much danger. Some viewers agree with this, yet it's doubtful if Lori or Carl were left behind that Rick would have the same response; Lori and Carl would be searched for, and hang the danger or it. He shocks the group when he admits stabbing Shane to death, but tells them he "did it for you people!" I can't see Carol's attitude as proof of her flaws but with Rick it's leadership,

But that's the reason I don't see Carol as a fierce leader and Rick as a pathetic failure of a leader, as some fans do. They have both made mistakes. Rick didn't fully understand Carol's actions and didn't try. Carol never tried to understand Rick's actions in season 2, which is ironic, because ultimately she went down that same road herself this season, hiding things for what she saw as the good of the group, and killing Lizzie (mentally ill and increasingly prone to murder) the way Rick killed Shane.

[LadyNebula]

If you told me back in Season 1 that A) Carol would make it this far and B) she would become one of my absolute favorites, I'd ask you where I could get some of what you were smoking.  I think the reason Carol is so compelling is because of Melissa McBride.  That woman is mesmerizing.  I know it won't happen (because voters don't take horror seriously), but she should be nominated for an Emmy this year.  Her performance in The Grove was astounding.  I would watch that woman read the phone book.

[Mattipoo]

MMB definitely deserves a Best Supporting Actress Emmy. Hope she can get nominated this year.

[eejm]

This isn't a complaint about Carol per se, but I watched "Killer Within" recently and remembered something that bugged me the first time around.  Why in the hell did they give her that stupid head scarf to wear?  Yes, I understand that finding it near T-Dog's body made everyone think Carol was dead as well.  But she had never worn it before or since then, and why in the hell would she wear a head scarf in the hot Georgia summer?  Why didn't costuming put her in a tank top and a button down shirt with the others to find her torn up button down and come to the same conclusion?  Carol would have still been wearing the tank top when Daryl found her, so it isn't like she'd have been found topless.  Why go the clumsy and inconsistent route instead?

[LadyNebula]

This isn't a complaint about Carol per se, but I watched "Killer Within" recently and remembered something that bugged me the first time around.  Why in the hell did they give her that stupid head scarf to wear?  Yes, I understand that finding it near T-Dog's body made everyone think Carol was dead as well.  But she had never worn it before or since then, and why in the hell would she wear a head scarf in the hot Georgia summer?  Why didn't costuming put her in a tank top and a button down shirt with the others to find her torn up button down and come to the same conclusion?  Carol would have still been wearing the tank top when Daryl found her, so it isn't like she'd have been found topless.  Why go the clumsy and inconsistent route instead?

I remember MMB saying that she wears them a lot IRL (and she does), so they got the idea from that.  Still dumb, but whatever.  

[kikismom]

Actually, Carol's scarf was consistent for the show; or I should say, this show's writers.

 

So far we've had a scarf, a little black sneaker, a doll (Sofia's), a bracelet (Karen's), Beth's backpack, and let's not forget Merle's hand!  Every time someone goes missing, start your countdown till the inevitable moment a recognizable personal item is found. I don't know if I'm watching Hansel and Gretel or Lassie Come Home.

 

I'd like to see Daryl come running out of the woods with a necklace in his hand : "I found the Heart of the Sea! I'm ready to go back to the TItanic!"

[bluebonnet]

 why in the hell would she wear a head scarf in the hot Georgia summer? 

I agree it was sort of random that she had a scarf just for that scene.  However, I found the head scarf to be the only realistic thing when it came to how the show deals with hair.  They were clearing the prison.  The scarf helps keep sweat off the face and neck, keeps the hair cleaner than it otherwise would be, and also does keep one cooler even in hot and humid weather.   I'm not a superficial person by any means, but the hair on the show drives me nuts.  They have most of the females with their long hair down, which...no.  One, it's hot.  Two, bathing is irregular and hair that is down will get dirty quicker and became incredibly tangled.  Three, they are dealing with zombies and loose hair is just an easy thing for zombies to grab onto.  Carol's hair is the only hair I find plausible. 

[Ocean Chick]

MMB has been nominated for the TV Critics Choice Award for Best Supporting Actress.  I'm beyond proud of her - she's done a fantastic job for the last 4 years.

[kj4ever]

Carol is probably who I consider the most interesting character on the show.  She is so many things - weak, strong, hypocritical, honest, sneaky, like a real person would be in this situation.

 

I'll admit I wanted her as walker bait as she stood on the side of the road ringing her hands over her daughter instead of running after her. What Mother does that?  I wanted her as walker bait even more when she disclosed that not only did her hubby beat her but had designs on his own daughter and she was still with him.  I will never understand women who don't have the Mama Bear in them.  Never.  I've never been knocked around so I can't fathom what that would do to your psyche, but you would think a bit of the maternal instinct would poke it's head out.  I mean she did pull Sophia away from her Father when he wanted her to stay with him, but that was just after Shane put the beat down on him.  I can admit I am so judgemental about this and people that allow their kids to be in horrible situations.

 

Then she stood around complaining about Rick's leadership but was unwilling to step up herself.  Anyone can bitch when they have hindsight.  I'm convinced there really are no "right" decisions in a situation like the ZA.  Just decisions that you have to live with.  I don't believe for one second that a Shanarchy would have been better than a Ricktatorship.

 

I mean really if she wouldn't have chided Patrick for being weak when he said he was sick and tell him to possibly go get checked out by the Doc that whole disaster wouldn't have happened.  If she would have been paying even the least bit of attention she would have realized that Lizzie and Mika's Dad was talking to Mika when he said "Take care of your sister".  Then there was Mika telling her over and over and over again that Lizzie was just not right.

 

But Carol grew and learned from all these situations.  She became strong when before she was weak.  She found her Mama Bear, maybe a bit too much, but none the less found it. 

 

I also can't help but wonder if/when they meet up with the others if they'll tell the truth about Lizzie.  Yes, we all saw that she was a whack job and know it needed to be done, but a bunch of people who weren't in that situation, that know that she already murdered two people in cold blood but has now killed a child, well I don't think that's going to go down so well.  Saving Judith might help her with Rick, but the others? 

 

She's just fascinating and Melissa has got to be one of the most talented actors around.  To be able to stir up so many emotions in people and make it seem so real is just outstanding.

Edited July 24, 2014 by kj4ever

[ghoulina]

I agree. I love Carol because she is just so complex. You can love her, but hate some of the decisions she's made. Or you can hate her, but be in awe of some of her actions. I, personally, couldn't stand Carol the first two seasons. I'll never forget her standing by the fence, as Hershel's farm burned to ground, wailing like a baby....and how Daryl came and rescued her. I just saw her as so weak. Yes, as you mentioned, so weak she didn't even save her own daughter from her horrible father. But then she got tough. Almost too tough. The pendulum swung completely to the other side, which I think could be expected given her history. I think at the end of last season e saw the beginnings of her finding middle ground. But at her core, I think Carol is a good person who loves her people and will fight fiercely for them. She is someone who wants to do the right thing, she has simply struggled with what that is. I hope we get to see more of her figuring that out next season, because (IMO) MMB is the best actress this show has seen.

[kikismom]

Oh, ghoulina, you know I love ya!, but I have to disagree just a teeny bit.

When Herschel's farm was overrun, T-Dawg and Andrea drive around shooting, while the women were escaping the house. Patricia gets walker-nabbed, and won't let go of Beth.

Finally, they break free but Carol is cornered by walkers at the wall of the shed and Andrea hops out to save the day...only for Lori and Beth to hop in and T-Dawg takes off leaving Andrea and Carol stranded (nice) and then they get cut off from each other by walkers.Andrea gets chased into the woods while Carol runs along the fence line (totally like a Mom running, arms bent up in her cardigan) and eventually she's getting exhausted but still bumbling and flailing along and crying out for someone to stop as they all vrooooom off (rude!) and it looks dicey. Daryl stays a bit watching the fire and finally hears/sees Carol.

It didn't seem so much to me that she was standing, and I might be wailing too (not just because of being cornered and just saved from death at the last second by Andrea, and being chased by a mob of walkers) but mainly by seeing Lori f#%k her over one more time.

Edited July 26, 2014 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

Oh yea, I know - it's just that Carol just seemed so useless up until season 3. And I didn't really see it as Lori fucking her over. It was chaotic and people got separated. At least Lori had a gun and was trying to keep people together. But her son was out there somewhere, and the minute you stop you could be next. I seriously think she thought they were "gone" and just had to get out of there, and I don't think Carol seemed to hold any of that against Lori. The only person she seemed peeved at in the aftermath was Rick. But anyhow, just the entire segment - she was so helpless. I can't really hate her for it. I don't know how she was raised, but she was obviously beaten down both physically and mentally over the course of her marriage. But I just kept wondering what it was going to take to snap her out of it, if her daughter dying didn't. Although, sometimes I have to remind myself that what felt like forever at the farm was really only a few days. At any rate, I was really happy to see how she had stepped up by season 3. Not everyone can be a Billy Badass, but at least TRY to defend yourself. 

[kikismom]

I did hate Carol the first time I saw her, when I noticed she brought an ironing board to the apocalypse.

Although she was also capable of stealing a grenade and hiding it for some time. So she was not all she appeared to be. In many ways

. And I don't care how beat down she was, I agree that her response to Sophia going missing was not acceptable. Just try and hold me back and say 'stay back and we'll go search for her' I'd knock down anyone to save Sophia if she was my daughter.

And for Rick not to notice a missing grenade? I won't even go there.

[Boofish]

I did hate Carol the first time I saw her, when I noticed she brought an ironing board to the apocalypse.

Although she was also capable of stealing a grenade and hiding it for some time. So she was not all she appeared to be. In many ways

. And I don't care how beat down she was, I agree that her response to Sophia going missing was not acceptable. Just try and hold me back and say 'stay back and we'll go search for her' I'd knock down anyone to save Sophia if she was my daughter.

And for Rick not to notice a missing grenade? I won't even go there.

 

My side hurts soooo much right now. I thought I was the only one who thought "is this stupid (@&% really ironing?" I love Carol now but I'm sorry NO WAY Lori or Rick would have saw Carl getting chased by walkers and just waited under a car with someone's dirty hand over their mouth. Experiences did change Carol over time and make her brave and likeable but I wouldn't follow her to the bathroom. If any of them had a clue they would have taken Rick upon his offer to leave. I loved Hershel and Darryl in that moment because both of them was like "I can't hear a word these useless idiots are saying because I'm too busy listening to Rick"

[kikismom]

The Governor was murderer of helpless people; (.add those poor Army guys).  Rick wanted to broker a deal to save the lives of his people and avoid war? Except those people expressly did not want it: Glenn, Maggie, Herschel, Michonne, Beth etc preferred to leave the prison to the Governor than live under the same roof with him.

I don't think you can negotiate with someone like the Governor; and Rick should never have thought that even an agreement would be valid. Rick knew from Andrea, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, Merle that the Governor frequently lied just to get people to let down their guard, right before he betrayed them. It's like Neville Chamberlain getting a promise for Peace in Our Time from Hitler---appeasement doesn't work, megalomaniacs see it as a chance to trick someone weaker.

Rick should have listened to Herschel at least.

My feeling was Karvid were goners and weren't going to be saved. They got put out of their misery? Maybe---because that's what triage is. In emergency protocols for nuclear victims, or natural disasters in places cut-off from state-of-the-art resupplied medicine (as similar to TWD as we've known) the rule is you don't waste meds on people who are critical. It's the opposite of safe place protocol. In triage, you give up the worst ones and save limited resources for those who can come back the best.

I know it sounds cruel; but Shane was right to shoot Otis. It's ugly but it's right. If he plays honorable foxhole buddy who dies at your side rather than leave you, 4 people die: Shane, Otis, Carl, and T-Dawg. This way one person dies. (Or Otis could have shot Shane, though I doubt Otis would have got out anyway he had to stop for breath in the field even when Rick was carrying Carl and no walkers were chasing anybody.)

The ZA wouldn't be a time or place for current morals and ethics. The people who survive are the ones who don't hope if you're nice the bad guy will leave you alone. People would have to be pragmatic---don't the same people defend Rick for leaving Backpack Guy?

Just because you don't kill the guy, you are deciding death for a helpless person...by withholding the only way they could live. Didn't Rick do it for the good of Carl and Michonne?

Kirkman says in a Comic-Con interview that Rick will not be in the same place he was when he told Carol she couldn't come back with him. Rick's experiences since she's been gone will (according to Kirkman) make Rick see things in a way that he gets what Carol did.

[Boofish]

I think Ricks issue was Carol would have killed whoever got sick without any regards to who it was; thats the way I see it - what if it had been Carl or Glen would she had done the same thing? I bet that's the last time she insists he "do something" & "he has no honor"

Edited July 29, 2014 by Boofish

[kj4ever]

I think Ricks issue was Carol would have killed whoever got sick without any regards to who it was; thats the way I see it - what if it had been Carl or Glen would she had done the same thing? I bet that's the last time she insists he "do something" & "he has no honor"

The "has no honor" thing ticked me off because she said it right in front of his kid.  Carol really can be a self-righteous A Hole.  She's not really good with a pitch either.  "You are a henchman and I am a burden, hey let's run off on our own"...lol

 

When Rick and her set off for their run I really don't think Rick had it in his mind to banish her yet, or wouldn't have had it in him to do it.  Then she showed absolutely no remorse and was so "SOMEONE had to do something" that he thought there was no coming back for her.  I know I sure as shit wouldn't want to sleep in the same building with her, especially during allergy season.

 

Oh and one more thing that irks the crap out of me....The hitting on Daryl when that kind of affection is obviously not returned.  Leave the poor guy alone.  I think Daryl is like Asexual - he only has sex with himself.

Edited July 29, 2014 by kj4ever

[Boofish]

I know I sure as shit wouldn't want to sleep in the same building with her, especially during allergy season.

HA!

 

I like Carol until I re-watch the early episodes - especially season 2. I still don't get the "no honor" comment over not telling them they would turn upon their death. It's not like they had something that was going to kill them or they could turn at any minute. Rick was busy doing "stuff and things" he did not have time to discuss their health care options. Are they contagious? Would they have made different choices? Stayed at the CDC and become fireworks? I don't get it. I suppose if one of them died and they didn't know and that person turned they could have all been in danger but no one expressed that in the moment. She would have never known what had happened to Sophia if it wasn't for Rick. Shane would have killed Hershel and his entire family and took the farm or he would have left as soon as the sun went down that night and Sophia wasn't back with the group.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Boofish

[ghoulina]

I understand being upset that Rick didn't tell them about "all being infected". I wouldn't go so far as to say he had "no honor", but he should have told them. What about when Beth was suicidal? She could have turned and killed Lori right there in her bedroom, and all her naive family members as well. The entire group could have been wiped out. Carl was near death for awhile there, and T-Dogg got pretty sick with infection. The Greens were kind to take them in and care for them. What if one of CDB  didn't make it and Hershel or Patricia was caring for them at that moment and got eaten? I know it didn't happen that way, but I still think that's information everyone should have had at their disposal. 

[kj4ever]

HA!

 

I like Carol until I re-watch the early episodes - especially season 2. I still don't get the "no honor" comment over not telling them they would turn upon their death. It's not like they had something that was going to kill them or they could turn at any minute. Rick was busy doing "stuff and things" he did not have time to discuss their health care options. Are they contagious? Would they have made different choices? Stayed at the CDC and become fireworks? I don't get it. I suppose if one of them died and they didn't know and that person turned they could have all been in danger but no one expressed that in the moment. She would have never known what had happened to Sophia if it wasn't for Rick. Shane would have killed Hershel and his entire family and took the farm or he would have left as soon as the sun went down that night and Sophia wasn't back with the group.

I never quite got why she was Team Shane when all he wanted to do was call it a day and forget about Sophia.  Either he was really quiet about it and only bitched to Rick, or Pre Season 3 Carol was even more stupid than I thought.

 

LOL @ Stuff & Thangs.  I still crack up everytime someone mentions that.

[Boofish]

The only thing I laugh at harder than "stuff and things" is when Darryl called Lori Olive Oyl.