S02.E03: Shogun

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I assumed that the babelfish tablet took care of the idioms in addition to the literal language.

But they had the girl repeating the "hardcore" thing so I think those people were supposed to hear exactly what we heard. It threw me out of the story. The others of the team used modern slang too, to a degree, but Nate was by far the most cavalier about it. For a guy who could accurately place the historical period by sight after 2.5 seconds, this just made no sense to me. 

[BkWurm1]

18 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

Did anyone else catch the fact that the Masako is Tatso (ie Katana) Ancestor? (or Maseo, not sure how last names go in Japan)

I was thinking Yamishiro was Tatsu's married name so yeah, it's the origin of the sword but Katana is still a creation that had nothing to do with the Legends.  

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I guess having Ray zip around in the Atom suit was putting too much of a strain on the show's budget?  Oh well, maybe his next suit will have a kill switch in case it's stolen.

I definitely agree that Nate is acting a lot like Ray 2.0.  I think they want to create their own version of Felicity/Cisco but it's not quite working yet.

I'm not really sure what they plan to do with Ray.  Maybe it's Ray that is supposed to slip into the part of Felicity or Cisco?  Except, what would he do, just tinker in the lab fixing and tweaking stuff for everyone else?  Gideon gets most of the exposition.  Had they put Ray in charge of the Waverider, you could more easily sideline him, but instead Sara is in charge and she's more front and center than ever and thank goodness!

Sara's fights are consistently good but that last one was one of her best.  I did a double take and hit rewind when I realized that it really was CL even for the actual flips.  (Which I should have just expected by now, lol)    

 

7 hours ago, kdm07 said:

Some really good lines in this episode:

"Sounds like you're having performance issues."

"League of Assassins, Class of '09. Don't take it easy on me."

"I designed it so that an idiot can use it."
"An idiot does."

"Tell that to Chuck Norris."
"Who's that?"
"And I'm the idiot!"

The line about "class of 09" was such a call back to how Felicity introduced herself to Nyssa at the end of Arrow Season two.  Now I'm trying to remember if Sara was there for that.  Either way it's my new head canon that Sara was either there or heard the story from Nyssa and was waiting for just the right opportunity to do her own version.  (Which is more comforting than knowing the writers are just repetitive hacks)

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

I assumed that the babelfish tablet took care of the idioms in addition to the literal language.

So far as Barry's message to Rip goes, I think that older Barry has realized somewhere along the line what a complete hash he made of things by time traveling, and so he was calling in the professionals (Rip).

Was Nate using a babelfish tablet? They made a big production out of Ray taking  a fresh one (I guess they wear out/off?) but I had the impression that Nate just speaks Japanese (and this is TV where dialects and language evolution over time don't usually matter -- if you speak it, you speak it).

[squidprincess]

I think Japanese was one of the languages that Nate speaks.  And to be fair, he is a historian, so it's mildly more acceptable that he would be able to speak Edo-period Japanese.

It doesn't really explain his inappropriate behavior though.  

[Sakura12]

50 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sara's fights are consistently good but that last one was one of her best.  I did a double take and hit rewind when I realized that it really was CL even for the actual flips.  (Which I should have just expected by now, lol)    

CL posted a vid of the flip. That was all her. 

[tarotx]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was thinking Yamishiro was Tatsu's married name so yeah, it's the origin of the sword but Katana is still a creation that had nothing to do with the Legends.  

I'm not really sure what they plan to do with Ray.  Maybe it's Ray that is supposed to slip into the part of Felicity or Cisco?  Except, what would he do, just tinker in the lab fixing and tweaking stuff for everyone else?  Gideon gets most of the exposition.  Had they put Ray in charge of the Waverider, you could more easily sideline him, but instead Sara is in charge and she's more front and center than ever and thank goodness!

Sara's fights are consistently good but that last one was one of her best.  I did a double take and hit rewind when I realized that it really was CL even for the actual flips.  (Which I should have just expected by now, lol)    

 

The line about "class of 09" was such a call back to how Felicity introduced herself to Nyssa at the end of Arrow Season two.  Now I'm trying to remember if Sara was there for that.  Either way it's my new head canon that Sara was either there or heard the story from Nyssa and was waiting for just the right opportunity to do her own version.  (Which is more comforting than knowing the writers are just repetitive hacks)

 

Sara and Caity fight scenes are awesome <3

Sara was in the scene when Felicity Said Class of 09. 

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Are we not going to talk about how royally these "Legends" screwed up the timeline by killing Tokugawa Iemitsu 10 years before the actual end of his rule?

This is what bugs me. The show is constantly doing this sort of thing, and yet we're expected to believe that somehow these guys are pulling a Quantum Leap and setting right what once went wrong? Argh.

In any event, I thought this episode for all its flaws, was much better than either of the previous week's and generally better than most of last season, so there's that.

[squidprincess]

I kind of suspect that killing Iemitsu early will be a plot point.  We may see similar timeline alterations in the coming episodes, where the Legends end up disrupting time as much as saving it.

I think it might be tied in with Rex's warning and Rip's disappearance.  Nate is a historian and Sara is an excellent leader but they've lost the experienced time traveller who keeps track of this stuff.

Edited October 29, 2016 by squidprincess

[justjoan]

4 hours ago, squidprincess said:

And to be fair, he is a historian, so it's mildly more acceptable that he would be able to speak Edo-period Japanese.

Maaaybe, but it's a big stretch. How much has Japanese changed since the Edo period? I'm a historian myself, and I can read Latin, Old English and Old Norse, but that really, really doesn't mean I can speak them. Generating your own ideas in a dead language is a lot different than translating someone else's. The only way I can make the language issue work is to imagine that Gideon fed Nate a babblefish pill while he was unconscious and didn't want to hurt his feelings by mentioning it.

Nate's "I'm a historian!" shtick is driving me nuts. It's like he's revenge for all the years I wasn't sufficiently sympathetic about the goofiness of skilled-in-all-fields TV scientists. You can't specialize in everything, your gormless dope! Pick one! Or pick a couple of overlapping fields; that's common enough. I can just see him being equally the go-to history dude in the Edo era, Renaissance Florence, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Golden Age of Piracy, and arrrrrgh. Watch him be all Civil War savvy next week! He's a dilettante. The heck was his diss even about? Was the title just "History! Yay!"? If he gets more interesting post haste, I'll grit my teeth and bear this nonsense, but he's not even close to that level yet, and superpowers aren't a magic fix for a flat character.

I miss Snart so much. Woe. It would be nice if they'd at least mention him. Waiting until two minutes before he shows back up, whenever that is, doesn't count. I miss Rip, too. Hopefully when everyone got time-scattered, he landed in Jonah's time and is having a nice vacation (and Gideon can't find him for... reasons). At least Sara still gets awesome action scenes.

This episode was a festival of samurai movie visual cliches, but the end result was pretty (especially considering their limited means), so I'll forgive it. Even the falling cherry blossoms.

[squidprincess]

The Edo period of Japan wasn't that long ago, practically speaking.  Iemitsu himself was born in 1604 and died in 1651.  So basically, we're talking about the same temporal distance as a modern English speaker being able to make himself understood in Shakespearean England.  And that's basically doable, assuming someone has done his research.

And while Japanese linguistics was never my strong suit, IIRC, the Japanese language didn't actually have the same factors that caused the English language to change as much as it has in the last four hundred years.  The phonetic component of the Japanese written language is also pretty straightforward in a way that English is not, so Nate's got that as an advantage as well.  I'd imagine his accent is very strange, and some of the vocabulary doesn't translate exactly, but the idea that he could make himself understood when he has, apparently, paid a particular academic focus to this time period is actually fairly plausible.

What isn't plausible to me, though, is Nate's attitude about the whole thing.  It isn't just that he's empathized with this woman and wants to save her from a rotten fate.  He acts like everything is a total shock to him.  Tokugawa Iemitsu was the shogun who instituted the strictest laws regarding foreign contact in Japan, and the most isolationist policies.  So why is he so surprised that this random old man that he meets is antagonistic and wary of him?  Why is he so open about being a foreigner when he ought to know damn well that by coming forward instead of hiding, he's endangering the people who are sheltering him?  Why does he act so shocked at the thought of Masako in an arranged marriage or that the Shogun, to put it bluntly, is a bit of a dick?

It's like the writers couldn't decide whether they wanted him to be legitimately knowledgeable, or clueless, earnest white dude who will Save Everyone.

Edited October 29, 2016 by squidprincess

[Cthulhudrew]

IIRC, the Japanese language underwent a massive change around the turn of the 20th century, and then again post-WWII after contact with outside cultures (notably the US). It continues to undergo fairly regular change in much the same manner as our own American English does. So I would think that the modern Japanese that Nate probably learned in school would be significantly different enough that he would have some communication difficulties.

That said- didn't we see him get a Babel-pill last episode? I realize that we saw Ray swallow one this episode (which was the first indication we had that they might have worn off), but perhaps Nate's was still active while Ray's wasn't. That's the only way I can think to reconcile it myself.

As for his casual attitude towards a period in Japanese history that he was supposedly very familiar with, I'll echo the sentiment that it seemed a bit weird. When the kissing scenes came around, I was like- ummm... Misako should probably be pulling away and wondering what this weird gaijin is trying to do. I'm no Japanese historian myself, but I'm fairly certain that kissing was at the very least something only really intimate partners would perform in traditional Japanese society. But I guess we have to sacrifice realism for the sake of melodrama.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Why is he so open about being a foreigner when he ought to know damn well that by coming forward instead of hiding, he's endangering the people who are sheltering him? 

That was so stupid. Masako had things well under control and out he strides, putting everyone in danger. I know it was the hubris of wanting to flaunt his new metal self but it could have easily led to everyone slaughtered. So stupid.

They were very heavily invoking early Ray with him but I think even that one would have only come out if the soldiers started pushing her around or something. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Aeryn13

[FurryFury]

53 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I'm fairly certain that kissing was at the very least something only really intimate partners would perform in traditional Japanese society. But I guess we have to sacrifice realism for the sake of melodrama.

It still is pretty intimate and not often done in public, if at all - at least that's what I get from watching tons of anime :)

 

4 hours ago, squidprincess said:

 

The Edo period of Japan wasn't that long ago, practically speaking.  Iemitsu himself was born in 1604 and died in 1651.  So basically, we're talking about the same temporal distance as a modern English speaker being able to make himself understood in Shakespearean England.  And that's basically doable, assuming someone has done his research.

 

I'm a linguist, and don't compare English with other languages, please. The circumstances are completely different, and languages change at their own pace. 

[foreverevolving]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was thinking Yamishiro was Tatsu's married name so yeah, it's the origin of the sword but Katana is still a creation that had nothing to do with the Legends.  

 I believe Tatsu pointed out that her sword was passed down the line from the females in her family. So maybe Maseo took on Tatsu last name?

Edited October 29, 2016 by foreverevolving

[squidprincess]

4 hours ago, FurryFury said:

I'm a linguist, and don't compare English with other languages, please. The circumstances are completely different, and languages change at their own pace. 

The key thing is that Nate is a historian who has apparently made a study of Classical Japanese.  That isn't surprising given how useful first person accounts and contemporaneous records are to the field.  And since classical Japanese was used until the early Showa period (early twentieth century-specifically Hirohito's reign)  there would be a lot of samples (including living people who still use it) that Nate would have access to in order to learn the forms and development over time.  

This isn't a matter of someone learning Latin and miraculously being understood in Rome.  We're dealing with something much more recent and well preserved.  He probably sounds weird, but if he pays attention to his vocabulary choices, it’s plausible that he could converse.

Given that Nate is a comic book academic though, I won’t be surprised when he is able to converse in Latin in Rome, but this particular incident isn't that outlandish.

Edited October 29, 2016 by squidprincess

[Lady Calypso]

I actually paid attention during Nate's first scene with Masako, and I do believe that Nate just speaks the language and he didn't need a pill. It makes perfect sense as to why he didn't need it, because he explained that he spoke several different languages, Japanese included. I guess, with him having hemophilia and not being able to do regular activities that might include injuring himself, he took up other hobbies, such as learning several different languages, especially being a historian.

I was more concerned about him using modern lingo and Masako not questioning it. Although I appreciate that she had several confused looks on her face throughout the episode, so I can buy her not completely understanding everything he was saying. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Why does he act so shocked at the thought of Masako in an arranged marriage or that the Shogun, to put it bluntly, is a bit of a dick?

I think it wasn't that she was in an arranged marriage (or would be) but as Nate mentioned that it was with someone known in history with a habit of KILLING his wives and Nate suddenly in a position to save someone besides himself, blundered forward to do so.  Cue his performance anxiety.  

It is funny how this historian seems to have no concern about altering history.  

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

 I believe Tatsu pointed out that her sword was passed down the line from the females in her family. So maybe Maseo took on Tatsu last name?

Maybe Yamishiro was a common enough last name.   

[squidprincess]

34 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe Yamishiro was a common enough last name.   

It isn't unheard of for a man to take a woman's last name in Japan if her family was the higher status or had no sons.  The fact that Masako has a surname at all during this time period, and the fact that the Shogun wanted to marry her would indicate that her family is fairly high status.  If her brother had been her only sibling, then it's pretty likely that her husband would take her name.  Similarly, if Tatsu's family is significantly higher status than Masao's he might well have taken her name too.

[HunterHunted]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Sakura12 said:

Exactly I failed to see how him being a historian helped them. He just wanted to be a hero and get the girl. He wasn't at all hiding the fact that he was from the future, respecting the culture or even knowing that much about their culture. 

They have Gideon an AI that knows all of history and the future. What do they need another I'm a hero for the glory character for?

The going to different time periods and putting on costumes is half the fun of this show.

I'm hoping that if it happens again that Mick or Jax will just turn to Nate and rhetorically ask dripping with sarcasm "why are you here?!?"

The entire purpose of the Legends (which they fail to adhere to) is that they are a scalpel. Judiciously inserting themselves into history to cut out the things that aren't supposed to be there. Nate is allegedly supposed to help make that go as smoothly as possible, but now his silver ass is swaggering in, dropping modern phrases, and assassinating a noteworthy individual 10 years before his actual death.

This is such a nasty thought because I don't really want the Time Masters back in their season 1 incarnation, but I would love it if Rip's wife was a Time Captain tasked with cleaning up these idiots' messes. And also that she has no recollection of Rip because of how the Legends had screwed up the timeline.

Edited October 31, 2016 by HunterHunted

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It isn't unheard of for a man to take a woman's last name in Japan if her family was the higher status or had no sons.  The fact that Masako has a surname at all during this time period, and the fact that the Shogun wanted to marry her would indicate that her family is fairly high status.  If her brother had been her only sibling, then it's pretty likely that her husband would take her name.  Similarly, if Tatsu's family is significantly higher status than Masao's he might well have taken her name too.

Thank you for this!  I enjoy my shows so much more when they make a lick of sense, lol.  

[Starfish35]

I have mixed feelings on this episode.  I adore Sara, and I enjoyed her scenes of course.  I like Vixen so far.   I liked her giving the ninja star to Mick.  Although I agree with what another poster said about her running around telling people they're not heroes having the potential to get old.  

My issues are with Ray and Nate.  I'm just not loving the way things are going here.  As someone else said, Nate is really coming off as Ray-lite, and I'm just not sure we needed another Ray.  Nick Zano is happily not as obnoxiously wooden as Falk Hentschel was, but he still feels completely unnecessary, even with his cool new superpowers.  

And as far as Ray goes, I'm not going to be happy if this leads to an extended period of angsty broody Ray.  I really don't like angry Ray at all.  I don't know if it's Routh or what, but when he was angry at Nate, all I could think about was that I'd forgotten how much I hated this version of Ray.  I really only like Ray when he's being a doofy geek.  So I'm extremely wary of where this storyline might end up going.  I so much prefer excited upbeat happy puppy Ray.   

[Sakura12]

I hope in the next episode we get this.

Jax: "Zombies!"
Amaya: "There's no such thing as Zombies"
Sara: "I hate to break it to you, Amaya. Last year I was basically a zombie"

[yellowfred]

So, one episode into her tenure as captain and I'd say the position seems to suit Sara pretty well.  Even Amaya, whose most prominent personality trait so far seems to be being unimpressed with the legends, took all of three seconds to accept that Sara's the boss.  

I have to say, I was a little surprised that they did away with the ATOM suit the way they did.  I guess it makes sense, given the flashing neon signs telling us that Ray's getting a storyline about being a hero without the suit, but still.  I was kind of proud of him for managing to escape from that jail cell on his own.  It almost makes up for the fact that he had a super suit on and still let it get stolen by a bunch of guys with swords (like, I get that they're skilled and all, but he can shrink, fly, and fire laser cannon things).

I'm still not too excited about Nate.  Like, I get that he's excited about getting to have super powers, but he almost got himself and Masako killed because he wanted to show them off.  It's lucky that she just decided to ignore half the stuff he said, because he definitely tipped off the whole time-traveler thing practically every five seconds.  Also, it kind of bugged me that they had the rest of the team being perfectly cool with leaving Ray's suit behind so that he could be the one to explain why they can't.  

[BkWurm1]

I also remember how expensive in real life Rays suit was to make (taken out of Arrow's budget) so I can't help resent that they blew it up just a little. 

[tarotx]

37 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I also remember how expensive in real life Rays suit was to make (taken out of Arrow's budget) so I can't help resent that they blew it up just a little. 

It's coming back. I think they just want Ray to see himself as a hero beyond the suit. And for there to be changes so that only Ray will be able to use the suit. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by tarotx

[RedVitC]

nvm

Edited October 31, 2016 by RedVitC

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, tarotx said:

It's coming back. I think they just want Ray to see himself as a hero beyond the suit. And for there to be changes so that only Ray will be able to use the suit. 

And maybe make it so that whoever captures him can't just strip it off him so easily?  How easy they steal it from him is getting to be a joke.  

[tennisgurl]

I cant say I liked it as much as the last two weeks, but it was still a fun time. I am glad they are trying out some new locations and time periods, and I was right there with Mick with the ninja excitement. Its the anime fan in me I guess. And I still find myself looking forward to this show even more than Arrow and Flash. even though both shows have improved this season, in my opinion. This show is just so fun, and I love how our heroes are basically screw ups who have practically killed each other like six times. Man, if Vixen thinks these guys are messed up, she should have met Rip and Cold. 

I think I like Nate, but I agree with a lot of other people that he comes off as Ray-lite. And, look, it took quite a lot of time and effort to make me stop hating Ray and actually start liking him, even after he was forced into one of the most boring romances on TV, we dont need a second Ray. One of the things that makes this show fun is the different personalities of the characters, and how they play off each other. It losses that if too many characters are too similar. 

I do side eye how the characters can use modern slang and still be understood by people in feudal Japan, even with their translation pills, but...I can deal with it. I doubt the writers care much about linguistics, if it means we can get the gang to play with samurai swords.

I still really miss Rip and Cold. I know Captain Cold wont be back for awhile, but I hope Rip comes back soon, so we can have him and Sara as co-leaders. I feel like he will come back soon, they have mentioned him a lot. I hope so?

[BkWurm1]

I just hope that whenever he comes back he sticks around.  

[KirkB]

Weirdly I miss Snart but not Rip. Well, that's not entirely true. I do like Rip, but that's more because of Darvill. The character is not as important to the narrative as he was in the first season, and taking the experienced time traveler out of the equation so the newcomers have to fumble their way around with no one but Gideon to help them is kind of interesting. Snart, though, MIller has a presence and his snark was fun to watch. Purcell is carrying the mantle admirably but without the droll way Miller counter-balanced him it doesn't always work.

I don't dislike Nate. I still just don't understand why we need the character.

Edited October 31, 2016 by KirkB

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode.

Shaking Things Up On Legends Of Tomorrow

Someone new has powers, someone old doesn't, and someone else joins the team, at least for now.

[squidprincess]

I definitely feel the absence of the experienced time traveler given that they've killed a historical figure ten years early.  (especially when there was no outside tampering this time)

And really as sweet as the moment with Einstein's wife was, that was also a significant timeline change that no one seemed particularly concerned about.  Or that they've (admittedly, accidently) recruited someone who is the opposite of insignificant to the timeline given that Mari has to exist.  (Rip made changes, but we also saw him compulsively checking on the changes.)

I am really starting to think this will be plot significant.

Edited October 31, 2016 by squidprincess

[ottoDbusdriver]

I guess now we know why the superserum Nazi CGI was so bad last week -- the producers blew their budget on the Citizen Steel CGI, since it will be recurring.

[Sakura12]

I'm not watching this show for a history lesson, anything they do doesn't really affect the characters we see and they are the only ones that matter to me. To me LoT exists in their own timey whimey bubble. 

[squidprincess]

That seems a bit inconsistent considering the criticism you've made about Barry Allen's alterations to his timeline.  Nora Allen was one woman, of no historical significance, and we saw what kind of effect that Nora surviving had on the whole of Central City.  Sara Diggle doesn't even exist anymore due to that timeline alteration.

The Legends on the other hand caused the death of the ruler of Japan ten years early.  That's of considerably larger scope.  Now it might be that the timeline is fluid enough to accommodate that change or that the resulting long term effects would actually be positive.  But we don't see Sara or the other Legends trying to find out either.  That seems decidedly irresponsible.

Edited October 31, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

10 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

That seems a bit inconsistent considering the criticism you've made about Barry Allen's alterations to his timeline.  Nora Allen was one woman, of no historical significance, and we saw what kind of effect that Nora surviving had on the whole of Central City.  Sara Diggle doesn't even exist anymore due to that timeline alteration.

No it isn't, since I said it didn't affect the characters that I see. Barry screwing with the time affected the characters on the Flash and Arrow. LoT's did nothing to any of the other characters in the Flarrowverse.  

The ruler of Japan's death in the 1600's does nothing to change any of the characters on any of the shows. While Barry, messed with Iris and her father's relationship, gave Caitlin Killer Frost powers, made Cisco a mope, and erased a WOC character from existence. Those are the character I see. 

[squidprincess]

Except that this very likely COULD effect the characters that you see.  

Granted, none of these characters are Japanese (at least as far as I'm aware of), but this is change that could potentially have global effects.

The Tokugawa shogunate ruled Japan from the 1600s to the 1800s.  One of the major features of this time period was their extremely isolationist policies.  The strictest of these policies were enacted by Tokugawa Iemitsu and upheld by his successors.   In the 1800s, colonial interest in both China and Japan led to some very drastic action, including the Perry Expedition which led to the forcible opening of Japanese ports.  The after effects of the foreign incursion contributed to the factors which led to the Meiji Restoration, putting the Emperor back in direct power.  This had substantial influence in a generation or two of Japanese society, leading to the ideology that formed Japan's basis for their actions during WWII and afterwards, including the Russo-Japanese War, the US Occupation, the growth of the Zaibatsu and Keiretsu corporate structures and so on.

Now, it might not matter.  Maybe Iemitsu's immediate successor in this new timeline had very similar policies and we won't see a difference.  Or maybe his successor would have a more radical viewpoint.  Maybe Japan opens her ports earlier.  Maybe Japan creates different diplomatic alliances.  Maybe Japan develops a different relationship with the United States, technology and business.

This could have an effect on many Arrow and Flash characters.  For example, would Queen Consolidated have developed in the same way if the Japanese business industry didn't have the same impact on the global market?  Would Palmer Tech or STARlabs develop the same way without the Japanese contribution to the tech industry?  Would the League of Assassins be the same if the Asian nations had a different diplomatic dynamic?  So, already, you have potential changes to Oliver, Thea, Laurel, Sara, Felicity, Ray, Barry, Wells, Caitlin, Cisco, Jax and Martin and so on and so forth.

I mean, I don't think it actually WILL have an effect on any of them.  But the possibility is there.  The Legends are being very very careless right now, and that could backfire on them.

Edited October 31, 2016 by squidprincess

[GreatAtBoats]

3 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Rip made changes, but we also saw him compulsively checking on the changes.

We only saw him check a few times, and never for the reason you're implying. His only interest in how his changes affected the timeline was if he'd managed to save his family.

On the other hand, we have two examples of him being completely unaware of other major changes until he happened to stumble across the information: The only reason they knew about the Soviet Firestorm program was because they were looking for any known Vandal appearance in history and found a classified document, not because Rip checked for changes to the timeline. He also didn't know that Star City fell in Sara and Ray's absence until they crash-landed in 2046.

For all of Rip's complaining about other people on the team casually screwing with time, he has never been shown to care about how his own meddling would affect the timeline outside of whether or not he could change things to his own benefit.

 

[Hiveminder]

I honestly doubt that the writers have put that level of research into it, but you're right that what happens on LOT could affect characters on the other shows. I'm sure it will at some point. 

Personally, I'm waiting to see how the show handles the consequences.  Until then, I'm just enjoying the show. 

If there are no or very little consequences, I'm fine with this just being a fun show about time travel with some ridiculous melodrama thrown in. I'd probably actually prefer that. 

More likely, there will be serious consequences, and they will hopefully be used to propel the characters along in their journeys without the pointless suffering (or wiping out of existence) of other characters. 

Flash has already disappointed in that regard. LOT still has a chance. 

[squidprincess]

44 minutes ago, GreatAtBoats said:

We only saw him check a few times, and never for the reason you're implying. His only interest in how his changes affected the timeline was if he'd managed to save his family.

On the other hand, we have two examples of him being completely unaware of other major changes until he happened to stumble across the information: The only reason they knew about the Soviet Firestorm program was because they were looking for any known Vandal appearance in history and found a classified document, not because Rip checked for changes to the timeline. He also didn't know that Star City fell in Sara and Ray's absence until they crash-landed in 2046.

For all of Rip's complaining about other people on the team casually screwing with time, he has never been shown to care about how his own meddling would affect the timeline outside of whether or not he could change things to his own benefit.

I think there's a difference between the season one and season two changes that we're talking about here.  The changes that the crew made in season one were much smaller: a dropped piece of technology, a Soviet scientist witnessing Jax and Martin as Firestorm.  Rip caught the Atom technology right away, but he did miss the Soviet program.  I don't think that's an indicator that Rip wasn't monitoring though.  Just that he's not omniscient and may not always realize that a change took place.  Once he did know about the Soviet program, he was clearly monitoring enough to know that Martin being imprisoned was a very big deal.

The Star City incident is kind of a special case, because there are one of two interpretations here.  1.  That Star City fell due to Sara and Ray's absence, meaning that it would be negated as soon as Sara and Ray returned, and this potential future wouldn't have been a blip on their radar if they didn't crash there.  Or 2.  That Star City was always going to fall.  If we take Rip at his word that Sara was supposed to die against Darhk with Laurel (which makes sense given that death scene), and that Ray is equally as "historically insignificant", then this wouldn't be something he'd be monitoring at all.  It'd just be a fixed point on the timeline.  Either way, that's not really something Rip would necessarily look up until it became relevant.  We did see him consult Gideon about the timeline once they were there.

The thing is, in season 1, Rip was busy hunting someone who, until 2166, was operating behind the scenes.  So there was a lot more leeway in terms of what changes could be made to the timeline because of it.  They didn't interact with any actual historical figures, unless you count Per Degaton, who was historical to Rip and Miranda at least.  And we know that it didn't go well, because Rip and Gideon immediately followed up on it.

Season 2 is a bit different because they're trying to deal with someone/something interfering with major historical events.  But we do see that, at least in France, Rip was very concerned with the preservation of the timeline (including the conception of Louis XIV.)  We've seen in both seasons that Rip consults Gideon fairly extensively before they arrive at a new location.  And we also saw him monitoring after they'd "saved" Einstein, to determine that no, the problem was still in place.

JSA wasn't as big of a deal, because they had Nate's dogtags to indicate that the time alteration happened and to reverse it.  But they also have a stowaway, and no indication that they ever checked her historical significance.  (Unless Vixen has already had a child, Mari is a significant factor to consider.  She is not "historically insignificant" the way the original Legends supposedly are.)  They also completely interfered in Japan, where there was no outside time alteration.  They killed a historical figure, and there is no indication that anyone even asked Gideon what might have changed because of it.  Yet, anyway.  They still could consult her about it next episode, which would admittedly take a lot of the wind out of my argument.  :-)

Edited October 31, 2016 by squidprincess
futzing about with punctuation

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, squidprincess said:

That seems a bit inconsistent considering the criticism you've made about Barry Allen's alterations to his timeline.  Nora Allen was one woman, of no historical significance, and we saw what kind of effect that Nora surviving had on the whole of Central City.  Sara Diggle doesn't even exist anymore due to that timeline alteration.

The Legends on the other hand caused the death of the ruler of Japan ten years early.  That's of considerably larger scope.  Now it might be that the timeline is fluid enough to accommodate that change or that the resulting long term effects would actually be positive.  But we don't see Sara or the other Legends trying to find out either.  That seems decidedly irresponsible.

It's totally irresponsible, absolutely, the team though has IMO different priorities.  I have to assume if they made some important blunder that Gideon would give them a heads up

[Sakura12]

I can't get mad at something that hasn't happened. Would've, could've, should've doesn't matter until something actually changes. Barry's screw up already happened that's what I don't like. 

I honestly don't think the LoT writers are that interested in being true to the timeline changes. They just want to travel through time and have adventures. Would it be better if they stuck to made up historical figures, probably. Since people today are so nitpicky about every little thing.  For me there are shows that I watch that I know have a deeper meaning behind every word and every action, and there are shows that don't. Both are enjoyable to me for different reasons. 

[Hiveminder]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I can't get mad at something that hasn't happened. Would've, could've, should've doesn't matter until something actually changes. Barry's screw up already happened that's what I don't like. 

I honestly don't think the LoT writers are that interested in being true to the timeline changes. They just want to travel through time and have adventures. Would it be better if they stuck to made up historical figures, probably. Since people today are so nitpicky about every little thing.  For me there are shows that I watch that I know have a deeper meaning behind every word and every action, and there are shows that don't. Both are enjoyable to me for different reasons. 

This is my hope for the show. Sometimes I get nervous that the writers are going to try to explore the consequences or something. Please, just let me have something fun. 

[squidprincess]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I can't get mad at something that hasn't happened. Would've, could've, should've doesn't matter until something actually changes. Barry's screw up already happened that's what I don't like. 

I honestly don't think the LoT writers are that interested in being true to the timeline changes. They just want to travel through time and have adventures. Would it be better if they stuck to made up historical figures, probably. Since people today are so nitpicky about every little thing.  For me there are shows that I watch that I know have a deeper meaning behind every word and every action, and there are shows that don't. Both are enjoyable to me for different reasons. 

They could have easily made up a historical figure and fudged the dates.  I don't think anyone would have blinked.  It would have been remarkably easy to set it in the Sengoku period and have Iemitsu as a made up local warlord.  But they specifically named an actual historical figure, and they specifically had him killed ten years too early.  I really doubt that's an accident. 

I don't think we'll see any major consequences for this particular incident, but it's very possible that this will be part of a larger trend of carelessness that will lead to bigger issues later that will need to be fixed.  Legends is a stupid show in a lot of ways, but it also set up a nice causal loop between the Time Masters, Rip Hunter, and Vandal Savage in season 1.  So they're not averse to using consequences when it suits them.

[kismet]

I think their plot endgame for s2 is the Team's general carelessness with the timeline. So they will resolve that major conflict in the last episodes. And depending upon whether they get more episodes, renewal or cancellation - they will have a plot conflict to resolve. Its a smart plan if you think about it because they can stretch it out or find a fitting ending. And depending on the future of the show, it gives the characters the perfect out to stop their time traveling.

As for the episode itself, I really enjoyed it. I liked the Hero's journey it set up. Ray losing his suit is a good thing for him. Being a hero, is about more than a suit. It's a lesson he needed to learn since his time on Arrow. Perhaps now he'll learn it.

I don't mind the new guy. I find him adorable. He's leaps above the boredom that the Hawks brought.

I like Sara as Captain. But I'm not liking some of CL's choices in her line delivery as Capt. It's making her sound a little cocky at times. And I think Sara has proven over the years her leadership abilities. So when Caity sounds cocky, it takes me out of the moment. That being said, I'm loving her choices in making SL a wicked Badass per usual.

[squidprincess]

Has Sara actually led a team before?  I'm shaky on my Arrow knowledge, but I'd remembered her as a solo vigilante.  The League of Assassins also seemed to be more single-assassin missions rather than a team scenario.   She had a lot of good suggestions in season 1, but hadn't really put herself forward for leadership for any of the individual missions.

So it'd make some sense if she was a bit nervous about it, and that can come out as cockiness.  She's obviously got the skills and expertise to lead, but this might be the first time she's had the opportunity to put that to the test.

[Sakura12]

She led team Arrow on one mission when Slade showed up at Oliver's house. She organized them and delegated jobs but the mission failed. She also kind of helped lead the take care of the Huntress mission as well. She had some League goons following her around when she rejoined them in the 1950's episode. So that looked like a bit of a leadership position or at least that she was higher up then them. 

I think to be a leader you have to be a little cocky. You need to look like you know what you are doing. I can see Sara taking on that persona in front of the team. 

[kismet]

You don't have to be the official leader to display leadership qualities. And technically she has been the leader on some portions of the mission on Arrow & LoT. The hard part for me is I don't read her cockiness as nerves. I read them as cockiness and arrogance. A good leader for me is not cocky. There is some chutzpah required, but I actually find cockiness a bad trait for leaders.

I just think CL is putting the wrong emphasis on some of her lines/acting choices which is ruining some of her leadership scenes. Perhaps she'll get better at it with future scripts.

[Starfish35]

Going in, I didn’t remember much about this episode except that it had one of Sara’s best fights to date on the show (maybe THE best), that Nate was a complete idiot, and that it was mostly one of the weaker episodes of the season.

After watching, I still stand by all those things, but there’s a lot here that I didn’t remember at all.  

“If this is about me taking all the mayonnaise, you might be slightly overreacting.” 😂🤣😂

Nate: “This is going to be so much fun!” Ray: Tries to look excited and fails completely.

”How is it you people haven’t managed to kill yourselves yet?” “Day’s still young.”

Considering how close of friends Mick and Amaya eventually became, I’d forgotten how badly they got along at first, until Sara pulls a team mom “don’t make me turn this car around”. 😂  But Amaya softening enough at the end to throw him a ninja star was cute.

Jax and Stein discover Rip’s secret compartment; wow, I had completely forgotten this entire storyline.  

“I designed it so an idiot could use it.” “An idiot does.”

I’d also forgotten Masako being one of Katana’s ancestors; to be honest, I don’t remember if I caught that the first time through.  But I do remember being disappointed, after Masako picks up the sword, that she wasn’t the one to defeat the shogun.  But then of course Nate couldn’t have had his “big damn hero” moment if she had.  

And speaking of Nate.....look, I have grown to like Nate.  Mostly. Most of the time.  But there was a long stretch of time where I wanted nothing more than him off the show, and this episode is where it started.  Ugh.  

Sara and fighting with swords is still the best thing ever. 

Did anyone else catch Dominic Purcell’s Australian accent showing when Mick is complaining about not having proof of ninjas? 😄