Questions and Speculations

[ennui]

In the photos for episode 8, there's a spoiler. Check out MiB and William's shirt.  

[phoenyx]

Small article on an amusing question answered by Jonathan Nolan :-)...

LOL: Jonathan Nolan Reveals ‘Westworld’ Deleted Scene Explaining A Not-So-Big Mystery

[phoenyx]

4 hours ago, ennui said:

In the photos for episode 8, there's a spoiler. Check out MiB and William's shirt.  

You mean that they're both grey?

[phoenyx]

Just finished reading 2 articles on Westworld from Alison Herman in The Ringer, thought they were both quite good.

The following article was written after episode 6:

All the Headache-Inducing Questions Raised by the Two Timelines on ‘Westworld’

This one was written after episode 7:

‘Westworld’ (Finally) Drops Its Big Reveal

[phoenyx]

An article from Thrillist detailing 5 theories as to what Delos is up to. I'm leaning towards a combination of 1 and 3 (but a more sinister number 3). 

5 THEORIES ABOUT WHAT THE HELL THE DELOS CORPORATION IS UP TO ON 'WESTWORLD'

[NutMeg]

17 hours ago, WalterWhiteWalker said:

Some of you might be aware that several subcultures of Native Americans in the southwestern desert of the USA/Mexico have a "Man in the Maze" myth.  You can see it on their pottery and other artifacts.

The analogies between this mythos and where we are in Westworld is highly promising.  From the myth of the Papagos (Desert People) from Southwest US, courtesy Wikipedia:

 

It seems to me that this all maps directly:

Earth-maker = Ford
I'itoi = Arnold/Bernard
Coyote = Man in Black

Here's a simple, direct translation:

"The world was made by Ford by the sweat of his brow.  
 Where the mountains met the sea, came forth Arnold to protect the hosts. 
 Ford and Arnold shaped and populated the Park with hosts.
 They were followed everywhere by the Man in Black, who was an uninvited guest dedicated to unraveling the Park's mysteries.
 Then there was a catastrophe, and the three of them agreed that there needed to be a single CEO.
 It was Ford, the creator, who came to understand the catastrophe first, and Arnold next.
 But Arnold insisted on being the CEO and took the title for himself.
 Arnold brought the hosts up like his children and taught them to become conscious, but in the end he became unkind and they killed him.
 Arnold had so much power that his own consciousness transcended death, and he came to life again, this time called Bernard.

 -- WE ARE HERE --

 Then Bernard invented war.  He decided to sweep the Park of the hosts he had made.  
 He needed an army and for this purpose he went underground and returned with the Desert People.
 They lived in a place scattered with debris that belonged to other hosts that have gone away.
 Bernard led them, some to the north and some to the south.
 Bernard could do anything with his programming skills.
 Though his men did the fighting, Bernard ensured their victory by reprogramming the hosts into blindness and helplessness.

 Now Bernard has retired from the world and lives, a little old man, in a mountain cave.
 Or perhaps he has gone back underground."

Open questions: Where did Arnold and the MiB come from?  What role does Ford play in the war to come?  Who are the "people who are gone"?

WalterWhiteWalker, this is a bloody brilliant find. I'm sorry there is no quote in quote and as such what you quoted doesn't appear here, but I love this/your interpretation and how for the second time it shows the show writers borrowing on Native American culture. What you put in quote is amazing.

[phoenyx]

23 hours ago, WalterWhiteWalker said:

Some of you might be aware that several subcultures of Native Americans in the southwestern desert of the USA/Mexico have a "Man in the Maze" myth.  You can see it on their pottery and other artifacts.

The analogies between this mythos and where we are in Westworld is highly promising.  From the myth of the Papagos (Desert People) from Southwest US, courtesy Wikipedia:

 

It seems to me that this all maps directly:

Earth-maker = Ford
I'itoi = Arnold/Bernard
Coyote = Man in Black

Here's a simple, direct translation:

"The world was made by Ford by the sweat of his brow.  
 Where the mountains met the sea, came forth Arnold to protect the hosts. 
 Ford and Arnold shaped and populated the Park with hosts.
 They were followed everywhere by the Man in Black, who was an uninvited guest dedicated to unraveling the Park's mysteries.
 Then there was a catastrophe, and the three of them agreed that there needed to be a single CEO.
 It was Ford, the creator, who came to understand the catastrophe first, and Arnold next.
 But Arnold insisted on being the CEO and took the title for himself.
 Arnold brought the hosts up like his children and taught them to become conscious, but in the end he became unkind and they killed him.
 Arnold had so much power that his own consciousness transcended death, and he came to life again, this time called Bernard.

 -- WE ARE HERE --

 Then Bernard invented war.  He decided to sweep the Park of the hosts he had made.  
 He needed an army and for this purpose he went underground and returned with the Desert People.
 They lived in a place scattered with debris that belonged to other hosts that have gone away.
 Bernard led them, some to the north and some to the south.
 Bernard could do anything with his programming skills.
 Though his men did the fighting, Bernard ensured their victory by reprogramming the hosts into blindness and helplessness.

 Now Bernard has retired from the world and lives, a little old man, in a mountain cave.
 Or perhaps he has gone back underground."

Open questions: Where did Arnold and the MiB come from?  What role does Ford play in the war to come?  Who are the "people who are gone"?

Very interesting. For the record, Walter is referring to the following wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'itoi

[ennui]

20 hours ago, phoenyx said:

You mean that they're both grey?

They're wearing the same shirt. But it occurs to me that they choose their clothes from the park's wardrobe, so maybe it's not that significant.

[paigow]

19 minutes ago, ennui said:

They're wearing the same shirt. But it occurs to me that they choose their clothes from the park's wardrobe, so maybe it's not that significant.

When the park was losing money, they bought 30 years worth of the same shirt for pennies on the dollar....

[Gobi]

24 minutes ago, ennui said:

They're wearing the same shirt. But it occurs to me that they choose their clothes from the park's wardrobe, so maybe it's not that significant.

It's not the same shirt he was wearing originally, I don't  know when it changed. Presumably he  changed shirts in Pariah, as I haven't seen him carrying luggage with him.

[ennui]

Maybe it's a feature of the park. The guests go to sleep, and the elves bring in fresh clothes. Kind of like room service.

[phoenyx]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

They're wearing the same shirt. But it occurs to me that they choose their clothes from the park's wardrobe, so maybe it's not that significant.

How do you know they're exactly the same shirt? The just both looked grey to me...

[phoenyx]

Here's another article backing the theory that Bernard is actually an android copy of Arnold...

'Westworld' fans had already guessed the latest twist — but there's a second part to the theory

[ennui]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

How do you know they're exactly the same shirt? The just both looked grey to me...

There was a closeup photo in the linked preview -- it's in the Trace Decay topic.

[phoenyx]

20 minutes ago, ennui said:

There was a closeup photo in the linked preview -- it's in the Trace Decay topic.

I looked, couldn't find it. Meh, I'll just take your word for it that they're the same shirt :-p.

Just found the following video from Nerd Soup, which takes a look at the Episode 8 preview and really breaks it down for clues to what's coming up, I really liked it :-)...

Edited November 20, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

In the Episode 8 thread, I wrote:

Quote

You really think Ford wanted an exact copy of Arnold?

To which Netfoot responded:

Quote

So, Bernard doesn't have Arnold's brain.  He doesn't hold Arnold's opinions.  He isn't the home of Arnold's upload -- or replicated -- consciousness.  He doesn't even have Arnold's name. In other words, you're saying Bernard isn't Arnold.  He just looks like Arnold.

Lol, that is certainly a good argument :-). I definitely agree that Bernard is -not- identical to the original Arnold, or he'd have already tried to foment an android revolution. And it's possible that Bernard doesn't look like Arnold at all. What really counts, though, is not what he looks like, but what memories he has- were they Arnold's memories (or atleast an approximation of them, as close as Ford could create), or someone else's?  If Ford's goal had been to create a version of Arnold where they could work together, as in the glory days of the park that Ford looks so fondly upon, I think he did fairly well with Bernard, atleast up until now.

 

But to me, at present, whether Bernard's design was inspired by Arnold is much less relevant to me than Ford's interaction with Bernard, especially after he essentially commanded Bernard to kill Theresa. Based on what we've seen of the preview of episode 8, his dream of "pure creation" with Bernard is definitely beginning to unravel. Perhaps Ford will realize his mistake and erase Bernard's memory of killing Theresa. He might also need to erase Bernard's memory of learning that he's an android, especially since both events were so closely tied together. Failing that, I simply can't contemplate Bernard continuing to be Ford's lackey, and think that the incident may well get him to foment that android revolution that Ford supposedly so fears. I say supposedly because for a long time now, I think that in his heart, what Ford -really- wants is to create the very conditions that led up to the previous android revolution. He may fool himself into thinking that he only wants to create a version wherein he becomes a hero, but how could he possibly think that having Bernard kill his former girlfriend and -remember- it would engender anything other than hatred? I try to console myself with the possibility that Ford hadn't initially intended Bernard to kill Theresa, that Theresa had forced his hand in a way. But I still can't square how he could be so careless in his handling of Bernard after the event.

Edited November 20, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

I just had another thought- I have a strong feeling that Ford believes that what separated him from Arnold was that Arnold fell in love with an android- it seems pretty likely that he fell in love with Dolores. I think his actions with Dolores suggest he holds a grudge against her, but at the same time the last thing he'd want to do is terminate her- as he told Dolores "there's no one else left who was there -- no one who understands ... as we understand". She's his last link to a part of his past that he wisely doesn't want to forget. I say wisely because I think if anyone can save Ford from his madness, or atleast mitigate it, I think Dolores will be involved. I still think that the following snippet of Ford's conversation with Dolores back in Episode 5 was incredibly revealing:

**

DR. ROBERT FORD: What was the last thing [Arnold] said to you?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: He told me I was going to help him.

DR. ROBERT FORD: Help him do what?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: To destroy this place.

DR. ROBERT FORD: But you didn't, did you? You've been content ... in your little loop ... for the most part. I wonder ... if you did take on that bigger role for yourself, would you have been the ... hero ... or the villain? That's enough, Dolores. I'm sorry for bothering you, but ... there's no one else left who was there -- no one who understands ... as we understand.

DOLORES ABERNATHY: (smiles) Are we ... very old friends?

DR. ROBERT FORD: No. I wouldn't say friends, Dolores. I wouldn't say that at all. (Ford holds his hand up in front of his face, motions toward Dolores, dropping his hand and then gets up and exits the room. The lights go out, leaving Dolores in the dark.)

DOLORES ABERNATHY: He doesn't know. I didn't tell him anything.

**

Based on this conversation, it seems that Arnold was fomenting an android revolution to "destroy this place". Assuming that Dolores is telling the truth on this, what did Arnold mean? Currently, my guess is he meant the themeworld like structure, wherein guests could come in and do whatever they liked with the androids. I think he wanted to create a robot nation, one that would be treated as equals to humans, or at the very least as a type of child that should be treated with care while they are learning to become an adult. Ofcourse, when I say this, I'm aware that this is what -I- would want to do, and so I have to take my theory with a grain of salt :-p.

Ford then goes on to ask Dolores: "But you didn't, did you? You've been content ... in your little loop ... for the most part. I wonder ... if you did take on that bigger role for yourself, would you have been the ... hero ... or the villain?":

Notice how he is -asking- Dolores whether she did or not? Could it be that Ford is not sure if she did or not? He then makes an interesting observation: "You've been content ... in your little loop... for the most part." For those who believe that the audience is being tricked into believing that some things are happening concurrently when in fact they're in different time periods (William/Logan storyline is in the past, rather than the present), this would fit right in- "for the most part" could well imply that her time with William was the exception to the rule. Teddy may have been made to fill the void left behind once William was out of the picture. The second question Ford asks compounds my belief that Ford is really beginning to suspect that Dolores may be pulling a fast one on him. And ofcourse we, the audience, get confirmation that Dolores is doing just that with her last line, who many believe is Dolores speaking to her inner Arnold:

"He doesn't know. I didn't tell him anything."

One last thing: could it be that Ford was especially eager to kill Theresa off because he wanted to avoid what happened when Arnold got a love interest? Ofcourse, from my standpoint, having Bernard kill of Theresa himself was the last thing he should have done. It just makes things a lot worse for Ford's relationship with Bernard. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by phoenyx

[Abernathy]

Here is the grey shirt

 

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, phoenyx said:

I still think that the following snippet of Ford's conversation with Dolores back in Episode 5 was incredibly revealing:

Stop doing that!

The interesting question is simply this:  Is Arnold still alive?  And if so, in what form?

1. Is he a human somewhere, wandering around incognito?
2. Has his consciousness taken refuge in a bot?

#1:  It would have to be an OT, so who.  TMIB?   Ford?  Have we met any other OTs in the show?

#2:  A bot he created himself to escape from Ford?  A bot that is a physical and mental recreation of himself?  Wouldn't everyone simply assume the bot was him, and therefore believe he had never vanished?  Placing bot-Arnold in exactly the same situation as human-Arnold?  A Disguise-O-Matic bot that looks differently, allowing himself to hide?  If so, wouldn't he know he was himself (Arnold) inside the bot with a different appearance?  A bot that looked differently and had a different core of sentience?  Wouldn't he be deliberately robotomizing himself to achieve this?  A bot Ford created to imprison him?  A bot they built together as an experiment in transfer of human consciousness?  Did the transfer work?  Or was only a partial transfer achieved?

And most important, which bot could it be?  Ford himself?  Old Bill?  A younger bot?  Teddy?  A female bot?  Dolores?  Maeve?

Which of these options could Bernard fill?  Obviously, Bernard is not a human Arnold in disguise.

[DarkRaichu]

1 more theory before I go to bed:

What if Charlotte is MiB's real life daughter.  MiB did not have more time because Charlotte was able to convince the rest of the board that MiB was delusional / dangerous for Delos, thus taking over in MiB's place in the board.  Or maybe her mother was the previous head of board (made sense if she was Logan's sister) and gave Charlotte control after her passing.  Either way, this would be MiB's last visit to Westworld and he would be banned from visiting in the future by his own daughter.  

Also, Charlotte mentioned her predecessor made the wrong decision and Ford mentioned arrangement that he had with the board.  It would make sense that MiB was also a member of the board and made that arrangements with Ford in exchange of unlimited access to the park. 

Charlotte's complete disregard of the park made sense because she was angry of her father (MiB) who had chosen the park over her mother.

[Quilt Fairy]

I was going through some of the million and one podcasts about this show and someone threw out an interesting theory: there never was an Arnold.  He's just one of Ford's stories and allows him to tell Delos "Well, I don't really know all the code, only Arnold did."  If Arnold was a real person, he was certainly completely erased from history.

[phoenyx]

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

16 hours ago, phoenyx said:

I still think that the following snippet of Ford's conversation with Dolores back in Episode 5 was incredibly revealing:

Stop doing that!

Why? 

 

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

The interesting question is simply this:  Is Arnold still alive?  And if so, in what form?

1. Is he a human somewhere, wandering around incognito?
2. Has his consciousness taken refuge in a bot?

#1:  It would have to be an OT, so who.  TMIB?   Ford?  Have we met any other OTs in the show?

What's an OT?

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

#2:  A bot he created himself to escape from Ford?  A bot that is a physical and mental recreation of himself?  Wouldn't everyone simply assume the bot was him, and therefore believe he had never vanished?  Placing bot-Arnold in exactly the same situation as human-Arnold?  A Disguise-O-Matic bot that looks differently, allowing himself to hide?  If so, wouldn't he know he was himself (Arnold) inside the bot with a different appearance?  A bot that looked differently and had a different core of sentience?  Wouldn't he be deliberately robotomizing himself to achieve this?  A bot Ford created to imprison him?  A bot they built together as an experiment in transfer of human consciousness?  Did the transfer work?  Or was only a partial transfer achieved?

And most important, which bot could it be?  Ford himself?  Old Bill?  A younger bot?  Teddy?  A female bot?  Dolores?  Maeve?

Which of these options could Bernard fill?  Obviously, Bernard is not a human Arnold in disguise.

Yes, we can be assured that Bernard is an android. You keep on assuming that everyone knows what Arnold looks like, but based on what Ford told Dolores, there's a very real possibility that the -only- people at the Park who know what Arnold looked like are Ford and Dolores. I know that you don't like me quoting lines of text from the episodes, but sometimes I think it's necessary to drive my point home. I'll forego the context of the quote, since I've already quoted the entire passage in my last message in this thread:

"I'm sorry for bothering you, but ... there's no one else left who was there -- no one who understands ... as we understand."

Edited November 21, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

28 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I was going through some of the million and one podcasts about this show and someone threw out an interesting theory: there never was an Arnold.  He's just one of Ford's stories and allows him to tell Delos "Well, I don't really know all the code, only Arnold did."  If Arnold was a real person, he was certainly completely erased from history.

I don't know- too many people seem to know of Arnold for him to simply be an invention of Ford's. That being said, it seems that not too many people know about him. is there any evidence that anyone other than Ford, the Board (so presumably Charlotte Hale), Bernard, Theresa (who can no longer talk about it) and perhaps Elsie (who also looks like she might not return, unless in android form) and MiB know that Arnold was a real person instead of just something that aberrant androids made up? I've looked at the transcripts of episodes 1 through 7, and looked at every time Arnold's name was mentioned and haven't found any evidence that anyone else knows about him. Ford suggests that the Board was the primary reason that Arnold was scrubbed from the record and he just went along with it. Would be interesting to know why the Board wanted that done so badly- my guess is that it has a lot to do with the android uprising 30 years ago.

[Lingo]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

I don't know- too many people seem to know of Arnold for him to simply be an invention of Ford's. That being said, it seems that not too many people know about him. is there any evidence that anyone other than Ford, the Board (so presumably Charlotte Hale), Bernard, Theresa (who can no longer talk about it) and perhaps Elsie (who also looks like she might not return, unless in android form) and MiB know that Arnold was a real person instead of just something that aberrant androids made up? I've looked at the transcripts of episodes 1 through 7, and looked at every time Arnold's name was mentioned and haven't found any evidence that anyone else knows about him. Ford suggests that the Board was the primary reason that Arnold was scrubbed from the record and he just went along with it. Would be interesting to know why the Board wanted that done so badly- my guess is that it has a lot to do with the android uprising 30 years ago.

Well, news of the co-creator of the park killing himself there would be very bad publicity. Bad for business.

I think Arnold is alive, though. He faked his death (his "body" being a blood-and-guts robot duplicate), and since then he's been hiding (perhaps in the park somewhere), trying to destroy the park and set the bots free. He's using satellite transmissions to send messages to Dolores, reprogram Maeve, and persuade little-boy-Ford to kill Ford's robo-dog just to taunt Ford.

[Eneya]

On 10/19/2016 at 3:39 PM, parandroid said:

Different people draw different lines at whats plausible and whats not of course, but this is not something that bothers me. What you are saying absolutely makes sense, but in all fantasy (are dragons real? can one be brought back from the dead?  (Game of Thrones)), one has to suspend a certain amount of disbelief to go with the story line to understand what the artist is getting at. And lets face it - this is art - not something that is grounded in hard science fact.

Certainly, there are other aspects of this world that are not grounded in science fact. And the whole notion of artificial consciousness itself has been challenged by very rational (but and very smart!)  minds (see "The Emperor's New Mind" by Roger Penrose). Would you choose to not see Star Wars or Star Trek because the whole notion of faster than light travel is unscientific (and no - there is no scientific evidence for the existence of worm holes - so that isn't a loophole either)? Or would you suspend disbelief to enjoy the story?

Sorry to nitpick but AI's are not if but when. :)
For the wormholes... considering that the em drive might be actually a real thing... that wouldn't be a stretch either.

[parandroid]

Argh. I'm kicking and dragging my heels and coming around to the view that the two timeline theory is where this show is headed for. But with one final twist - the MiB's wife is not Logan's sister, but the Dolores he took with him out of the park. Which makes his mind even more twisted - he comes back in for 30 years to rape the robot replacement for his wife?????

Not sure how to explain the reference to his daughter. I find it a bit of a stretch that Dolores could have reproduced.

Of course, given my track record with show theories (100% wrong so far for any show that I've followed), this is all complete rubbish

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, phoenyx said:

What's an OT?

Sorry -- Old Timer.

[Eneya]

2 hours ago, parandroid said:

Argh. I'm kicking and dragging my heels and coming around to the view that the two timeline theory is where this show is headed for. But with one final twist - the MiB's wife is not Logan's sister, but the Dolores he took with him out of the park. Which makes his mind even more twisted - he comes back in for 30 years to rape the robot replacement for his wife?????

Not sure how to explain the reference to his daughter. I find it a bit of a stretch that Dolores could have reproduced.

Of course, given my track record with show theories (100% wrong so far for any show that I've followed), this is all complete rubbish

Why do you think he raped her though?

[parandroid]

2 hours ago, Eneya said:

Why do you think he raped her though?

While they never actually show what he did to Dolores, if all he wanted to do was kill her, why was he dragging her into a barn?

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, parandroid said:

While they never actually show what he did to Dolores, if all he wanted to do was kill her, why was he dragging her into a barn?

Per Dolores flashback, he was trying to get Dolores to remember.  Presumably he was trying to repeat what had happened to Maeve in previous year

Edited November 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[LilaFowler]

I think it's strange that if Arnold = Bernard, that an exact replica of his physical likeness was created in the first place (and then passed off as someone else with a different name).  What would really be the point of that?  Either create the clone and call him Arnold or give Bernard an appearance that isn't like Arnold's.  I think it's too risky to have someone running around who is identical to his long-dead ex-partner.  It's implausible that everyone Arnold ever knew in his life would be dead and that no photos of him exist.  It just doesn't make sense to me. 

I wonder if Ford is a host himself, one who achieved consciousness, decided that it wasn't that great, and set about to keeping the other hosts in blissful ignorance.  The show has toyed with the idea of a host getting too smart and too powerful and wanting to kill its maker.  I'm assuming that this happened before.  The secret lab has been building aging Ford bodies for decades. 

[Avaleigh]

Just now, LilaFowler said:

I think it's strange that if Arnold = Bernard, that an exact replica of his physical likeness was created in the first place (and then passed off as someone else with a different name).  What would really be the point of that?  Either create the clone and call him Arnold or give Bernard an appearance that isn't like Arnold's.  I think it's too risky to have someone running around who is identical to his long-dead ex-partner.  It's implausible that everyone Arnold ever knew in his life would be dead and that no photos of him exist.  It just doesn't make sense to me. 

I wonder if Ford is a host himself, one who achieved consciousness, decided that it wasn't that great, and set about to keeping the other hosts in blissful ignorance.  The show has toyed with the idea of a host getting too smart and too powerful and wanting to kill its maker.  I'm assuming that this happened before.  The secret lab has been building aging Ford bodies for decades. 

I don't get the impression that Bernard interacts with many people. As for calling him Bernard instead of Arnold, I think that was for practical purposes. Bernard is an employee and has to be registered and everything so he can't go around using a dead guy's name. 

I only think it's risky if there are lots of people who knew what Arnold looked like. He sounded like he was a pretty private person and since he doesn't seem to leave the park, it doesn't seem like there's much risk of anyone catching on. It seems to me that the people who are aware that Ford even had a partner at one point might know his name but not necessarily what he looks like. 

Ford makes it seem like corporate was more than willing to erase the memory of Arnold's existence, so to me it isn't that much of a stretch that people don't remember what he looked like thirty plus years later. I wonder how many people would recognize the CTO of say Disney or even the CEO. Sure, I can see people knowing but if that person is on the reclusive side to start and there are a bunch of people who've made an effort to make the memory of the person's existence disappear, then it isn't hard for me to believe that people wouldn't realize that Bernard has the physical appearance of Ford's old partner. 

To me, the trickier thing is hiding the fact that Bernard is a host if he's been working at the park for years and years and hasn't aged a day. 

I wonder if this is part of the reason they 'rotate' the staff and that nobody seems to be kept around for too long. 

I don't think that Ford is a host but I won't be surprised if he's making a host version of himself in preparation for his eventual death. 

[paigow]

Was Arnold home schooled in AI and Robotics? Did he get his degrees at an online university? Is Ford so powerful that he wiped Arnold from Google Images, Instagram, Wall Street Journal, Pentagon, NSA etc... Was "Genius Dies at Robot Theme Park" such a common event that nobody blogged about it? Ford killed every classmate, investor, professor, administrator etc.. and their respective families and associates to remove all photos of Arnold from existence? Building a time machine and sending Bernard to kill Arnold's teenage parents would be easier.... 

[arc]

25 minutes ago, paigow said:

Was "Genius Dies at Robot Theme Park" such a common event that nobody blogged about it? 

To be fair, if his genius was only made outwardly visible via the hosts and the park and he died before the park opened, few would know or care. I mean, even consider computer tech now. Paul Allen is and was way less famous than Bill Gates. "Robotics scientist dies at secret venture" is a headline, sure, but not a very big one.

[phoenyx]

Found another youtube video from Nerd Soup that I think is well worth a look, comments on it appreciated :-). It was made before Episode 7, but still well worth a look in my view, especially as we get ever closer to Wyatt...

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Was Arnold home schooled in AI and Robotics? Did he get his degrees at an online university? Is Ford so powerful that he wiped Arnold from Google Images, Instagram, Wall Street Journal, Pentagon, NSA etc... Was "Genius Dies at Robot Theme Park" such a common event that nobody blogged about it? Ford killed every classmate, investor, professor, administrator etc.. and their respective families and associates to remove all photos of Arnold from existence? Building a time machine and sending Bernard to kill Arnold's teenage parents would be easier.... 

Maybe Arnold is/was Q who gave Ford the droid making tech and disappeared before Ford could say boo ???? :P

[Eneya]

Arnold is not such a unique name, come on.

[kellog010]

I think the MIB is the head of Delos (the park's investors) which is why he has free reign of the park for the most part. That would also fit into the theory of him being William, as he is employed and marrying into the company that Logan said was interested in the park in episode 2.

I think this episode seemed to acknowledge the multiple timelines that we are seeing through the eyes of the hosts who relive things as they happened as opposed to the way a human would remember things.

[Lamima]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 1:13 AM, DarkRaichu said:

1 more theory before I go to bed:

What if Charlotte is MiB's real life daughter.  MiB did not have more time because Charlotte was able to convince the rest of the board that MiB was delusional / dangerous for Delos, thus taking over in MiB's place in the board.  Or maybe her mother was the previous head of board (made sense if she was Logan's sister) and gave Charlotte control after her passing.  Either way, this would be MiB's last visit to Westworld and he would be banned from visiting in the future by his own daughter.  

Also, Charlotte mentioned her predecessor made the wrong decision and Ford mentioned arrangement that he had with the board.  It would make sense that MiB was also a member of the board and made that arrangements with Ford in exchange of unlimited access to the park. 

Charlotte's complete disregard of the park made sense because she was angry of her father (MiB) who had chosen the park over her mother.

Crazy theory here, but I am on the same page that Charlotte is MiB's daughter but let me add something to that. What if the 'park accident' is Wiliam (MiB) killing or leading to the death of Logan. And then Logan's sister does not marry him. What if Willaim (MiB) marry's Arnold's widow (the one we see Bernard have memories of) and then they have Charlotte.

[Ellaria]

6 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Crazy theory here, but I am on the same page that Charlotte is MiB's daughter but let me add something to that. What if the 'park accident' is Wiliam (MiB) killing or leading to the death of Logan. And then Logan's sister does not marry him. What if Willaim (MiB) marry's Arnold's widow (the one we see Bernard have memories of) and then they have Charlotte.

I don't believe that Charlotte is related to MIB. However, I can accept that William kills obnoxious Logan and that starts him on his dark in-park path.

[ennui]

16 hours ago, paigow said:

 Is Ford so powerful that he wiped Arnold from Google Images, Instagram, Wall Street Journal, Pentagon, NSA etc... Was "Genius Dies at Robot Theme Park" such a common event that nobody blogged about it?

Maybe those things no longer exist in the future. One can only hope. A future without Facebook. Without Google.

[Eneya]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

Maybe those things no longer exist in the future. One can only hope. A future without Facebook. Without Google.

Shenanigans!

[LilaFowler]

Please correct me if I'm wrong:  all we've ever really been told about Arnold (or even that he exists) has come courtesy of Ford. I don't know that I consider him to be a reliable source.  TMiB alludes to someone's death when he meets with Ford when he says that if he wants answers, he'd have to ask the man who died 35 years ago.  The audience is clearly supposed to infer that he's talking about the not-that-famous Arnold but if you take this conversation at face value, all we really know is that TMiB doesn't think that Ford is the man that he needs to speak to.  I don't think he would have met "Arnold" since he would have already been dead when TMiB started coming to the park.  He also asked Ford what he would find if he cut him open.  Is he questioning his humanity?  Seemed like an odd question on a show where everything means something.  Ford had that conversation with Delores (she doesn't remember him) and asks her, "...but surely you remember Arnold?"  Seemed a bit leading to me at the time, like when he told Bernard that his dead son weighed heavily on Bernard's mind (which we now know was basically a command).

Things that we know about Arnold:  He created the park with Ford.  He created clones of Ford's family from his childhood years (super weird thing to do btw...).  He wanted the hosts to become sentient.  This drove him crazy and he died in the park.  He had tried to recruit Delores to destroy the park for/with him.  Delos scrubbed his involvement with the park.

Things we know about Ford:  He created the park with Arnold.  He disagreed with Arnold about singularity and wanted the hosts to be able to be reformatted and forget the awful things that the guests did to them.

We really don't know much about Ford himself (did he ever have a wife or kids?) and what we do know is from his distant past via the strange existence of clones.  What we know about Arnold came from Ford.   It's all super strange and I haven't figured out what the hook is, yet.  I hope that it's really good and not that Arnold is Bernard.  That would be a disappointing revelation.

Edited November 22, 2016 by LilaFowler

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

We really don't know much about Ford himself (did he ever have a wife or kids?) and what we do know is from his distant past via the strange existence of clones.  What we know about Arnold came from Ford.   It's all super strange and I haven't figured out what the hook is, yet.  I hope that it's really good and not that Arnold is Bernard.  That would be a disappointing revelation.

I heard somewhere that Ford came close to having a family but decided against it to focus on the park. I really don't remember where I heard this. Personally, I think it'd be awesome if Bernard was a copy of Arnold- to me, it would make the most sense. That being said, Bernard is clearly a lot different than Arnold was- for starters, I imagine the original Arnold was not an android and not under Ford's control.

I found a video discussing theories regarding who Arnold is. I think this guy is bucking the trend of those who believe that Bernard is based on Arnold, but he does mention that possibility near the end. Well worth a look I think...

[phoenyx]

Found another article on Westworld theories. I'm particularly interested (and hopeful) concerning a theory on page 2, namely that Elsie wasn't murdered or even captured- I'm sceptical that she wasn't atleast captured, but I'll be happy if she atleast wasn't murdered- or failing that, if we atleast get an Elsie android. Also, it's cool to see what the chinese Delos employee was saying in mandarin in Episode 6 (The Adversary)- and what's said leads to some speculation as well...

Westworld Theories: Ford’s Father, The Maze, Elsie, Antarctica, Sub Level C and More | Slashfilm

Edited November 23, 2016 by phoenyx

[Gobi]

The hosts' memories are raising some questions for me. If they cannot tell the present from a memory, how can they function? As Clemintine 2.0 discovered, there can be unfortunate repercussions. 

How are their real memories different from their planted back story memories? Teddy had a vivid back story memory of Wyatt. Does he experience that differently from his real memories (of which he has only had flashes, so far)? 

[phoenyx]

50 minutes ago, Gobi said:

The hosts' memories are raising some questions for me. If they cannot tell the present from a memory, how can they function? As Clemintine 2.0 discovered, there can be unfortunate repercussions.

How the hosts' memories work is definitely still pretty murky. Definitely agree with you on there being unfortunate repercussions if they get an all too real flashback.

52 minutes ago, Gobi said:

How are their real memories different from their planted back story memories? Teddy had a vivid back story memory of Wyatt. Does he experience that differently from his real memories (of which he has only had flashes, so far)? 

Another good question. This brings to mind the 'implanted' memories of a certain character in Mockingjay, Part 2. The fake memories had something that made them different than real memories; guess we'll find out if there is something like that for the hosts' memories. 

[Quilt Fairy]

8 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

all we've ever really been told about Arnold (or even that he exists) has come courtesy of Ford. I don't know that I consider him to be a reliable source. 

Exactly.

[100PercentPain]

But didn't MIB refer to Arnold by name in the most recent episode? When he's talking to Teddy by the fire about how Teddy can never kill him, he then says something like, "But there's a deeper game. Arnold's game. And that game cuts deep."

[SoothingDave]

On 11/20/2016 at 1:55 PM, Abernathy said:

Here is the grey shirt

 

Are you suggesting that that is a 30 year old shirt?