S12.E01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Diane said:

Can we give Ladycangoscrewherself her on topic then we can list all the names, lol. 

She's not worthy of her own thread yet. Let's see if she makes it past the mid-season break LOL

[RulerofallIsurvey]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

HAHAHAHAHA. Well he was full of angel in s4 or rather she was full of him.

Ha!  And I thought I covered myself pretty well.  I should have known.  ;)

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

but I have an elaborate headcanon

Headcannon accepted!

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This was a little bit more personal with Lady HerHaughtiness insulting Sam on a personal level. I would hope that Sam wouldn't just forget that and would have a bit more self-respect than that.

Not just insulting, there's shooting him, kidnapping him, and assisting in his torture... So yeah, completely agree that I would hope Sam would have more self-respect than to get romantically involved with her.  

[AwesomO4000]

24 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not just insulting, there's shooting him,

Heh though apparently shooting Sam or trying to kill him isn't enough to scare him off, from his "happy dreams" (TM Dean) at least anyway - witness Bela... which is why  I'm hoping that the personal insults will at least make Sam not interested.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh though apparently shooting Sam or trying to kill him isn't enough to scare him off, from his "happy dreams" (TM Dean) at least anyway - witness Bela... which is why  I'm hoping that the personal insults will at least make Sam not interested.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if Sam doesn't have a latent masochistic thing going on.

[Commando Cody]

Maybe by this point, getting shot isn't a big deal to him anymore. 

[dr pepper]

I can get that the The Brits of Letters respect jurisdictional boundaries, but come on-- sitting out the apocalypse? "Oh, dear, those cretinous yanks screwed up again." "Quite!" "Sherry?" "I could do with a glass."

[auntvi]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

apparently shooting Sam or trying to kill him isn't enough to scare him off, from his "happy dreams" (TM Dean) at least anyway

"Dream" is the key word. You never know who/what's going to show up in your dreams, and you have no conscious control. Haven't you woken up from a dream thinking, "ew! where did that come from?"

[mertensia]

34 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

I can get that the The Brits of Letters respect jurisdictional boundaries, but come on-- sitting out the apocalypse? "Oh, dear, those cretinous yanks screwed up again." "Quite!" "Sherry?" "I could do with a glass."

I loved that Sam called Toni out on that. Because yeah. 

[SueB]

12 hours ago, Diane said:

Can we give Ladycangoscrewherself her on topic then we can list all the names, lol. 

Maybe we should vote on a name (not that this is REMOTELY binding) in the next Survival game.

 

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

As I said, my headcanon is elaborate, but for me it all fits, and makes both the hooker and Soulless Sam interesting in that scene as they play a bit of a mindgame with each other.

Headcanon accepted. Boom!

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, auntvi said:

"Dream" is the key word. You never know who/what's going to show up in your dreams, and you have no conscious control. Haven't you woken up from a dream thinking, "ew! where did that come from?"

Oh, definitely - my brain is apparently a completely scary place when I sleep. (In general, the good nights are when I don't remember my dreams.)

But considering Sam was less "Ew" when he woke up, and more "Oh, Bela's coming here?" *immediately his downstairs brain takes over and Sam becomes an idiot for the remainder of the scene,* alas I can not give him that benefit of the doubt. More likely, as @catrox14 says, he's a bit of a latent masochist (it would go along with his less latent bitey thing). I can go with that. Sometimes it's the quiet ones... ; )

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Maybe we should vote on a name (not that this is REMOTELY binding) in the next Survival game.

We had Lady Milady but that was before she became Sam's torturer.  So I say all bets are off, meaning call her whatever your heart desires but the only "rule" I would suggest is "Lady" be part of the naming convention to distinguish her from anyone else. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by catrox14

[bethy]

I kind of like the name that changes each time. When recapping Downton Abbey, the Fug Girls and the commenters came up with a variety of disparaging names for the horrible Sarah Bunting. Such as - Sarah Bunting: Ingrown Bikini Line Hair or Sarah Bunting: Infected Bed Sore or Sarah Bunting: Someone Took the Last Dinner Roll.

So, perhaps, Lady Toni: Random Fly That Won't Leave You Alone. Or Lady Toni: Who Ate the Last of The Pasta I'd Saved for Lunch.

[Partly]

My real life needs to change because I need to watch this show before Monday morning! The fact that I started it three times and had to stop before the first commercial break each just made it all that much more frustrating!

I really liked the intro of Mary -- we know nothing about her really, so it will be interesting to see who she is. I think we have a good start.  I love the stories that Dean told her to prove he was who he said. Not only that, but it gave us some interesting looks into Mary. She loved Slaughterhouse 5 (and do you think that's why Dean first started reading Vonnegut?). It was her idea to get married in Reno (and I got the feeling that John would have preferred a different venue). She was very independent and impulsive -- she not only went to a movie alone in the early seventies, but she went out to coffee with a complete stranger. Additionally, Dean says she knocked down a "big marine", which makes me think that John must have been in uniform at the time. A marine in uniform in 1972 was not something to be taken lightly. Most servicemen were told to change into civilian clothes the moment they were off base because they were treated so badly. I know servicemen from that era that were spit on while in uniform. At the time -- and really up to the 80s -- Vietnam vets were considered to be unstable and violent, so most returning vets never wore the uniform and rarely told people of their service.

I liked how she said that John trading himself for Dean was something he would do. I love little moments when you learn something about both the character who is speaking and another character. Plus her complete acceptance of what John did and her firm belief that it was completely in character for him to do so tells Dean a great deal about both his parents. That scene was good in many ways.

Also: I'm happy that Mary wasn't kick-ass at all. Sure she could clear a room -- but she did end up distracted and looking at books. And she did get the drop on Cas, but really, how hard it that when he wasn't sneaking at all. In the fight, she did kill Knuckles, however, all she did was pick up a dropped weapon and stab her in the back. The only reason she managed that is Knuckles didn't know she was there. Not sure that qualifies as "kick-ass".

As for the fight between Knuckles and Dean/Cas, it didn't bother me. Mostly because I assumed that the enchanted brass knuckles gave power to the person wearing them rather than affecting the person they hit. All it took was one hit to give them the winning edge. Neither of the Winchesters manage to fight without taking some damage -- and in Dean's case, I'd say that taking some hits in order to deal out damage is part of his strategy. The fact that Knuckles seemed willing to kill Dean is interesting. I'm not sure that's what she had planned, but it's the feeling I got. Not sure if she had a plan for Cas, although I think that they probably do, since that seems to be how the BMoL rolls, plans within plans within plans. It's obvious that the BMoL are willing to kill without qualms anyone they consider a threat, so I'm thinking that Dean and Sam may, once again, be on a "kill when possible" list.

Granted, Lady Bauer (named so for her use of torture) seemed upset when Sam pretended to kill himself, but I'm not sure how to read that, yet. She had no problem with torture, and her only complaint about "Mr. Ketch" was that she didn't want him near HER - not that she didn't want to have him around Sam. She had no problem shooting him and, despite saying that he could walk out if he just told he want she wanted, she also said "you're... you. It was always going to end up this way." So I doubt that she was ever going to let him walk out.

I'm on the fence about Lady Bauer. Nothing pushes my buttons faster than arrogance, elitism and contempt and this gal works those in spades. Of course, that seems to be the whole attitude behind the BMoL. My only reservation at this point is how much emphasis they are putting on her child. While it may just be an attempt to humanize her, I'm hoping there's more to it. My current hope is that there is something supernatural about her child and that, in some way, she's hoping to be able to help her child through going after the Winchesters. Being a subversive element in the BMoL, even for personal reasons, would make her more sympathetic. YMMV, of course.

As for the BMoL -- I've dropped them directly into the "unreliable narrator" file. By which I mean that you can't believe a damn thing they say. Looking back at the info they collected on the Winchesters (in the season finale last year), they weren't very accurate. Plus, the whole "we haven't had a supernatural death since 1965". So they have no ghosts? How do they ward an entire county against demons or angels? WAIT! Don't we know for a fact that this is wrong? Didn't a Banshee kill Eileen's (Into the Mystic) parents 30 years ago in Ireland? It's all so much bull -- but it's a good way to keep everyone in line and following their orders. I'm sure that the "old men" who have control over the BMoL have a whole mess of secrets that they are keeping. And really? Killing all every supernatural creature they meet? We spent the first seasons following the boys slow journey toward realizing not every supernatural being is evil, ain't no way that's going to fly here. I also find it interesting that they feel that Dean and Sam are somehow in charge of hunting here in the US. It's as if they see the Winchesters are the American equivalent for the "old men" in the BMoL. As if Dean and Sam would do that!

Finally, as much as I loved Dean and Mary (and Cas) in this episode, it was Sam who really won me over. Sure chained up to a chair has been done, but really how else would you restrain him? And it's not like doing that made him any less badass. What I really liked about Sam was how strong and proactive he was despite being chained to a chair and tortured. He wasn't going to give up any one. As he said: "Or maybe you tie them to a chair. Maybe you do worse. So, maybe... maybe you can go to Hell". That's the Winchester spirit. And even after they drugged him, he still stayed strong. He came up with a plan to get out and almost made it. Sure you could say that he should have killed Lady Bauer but that's not Sam and I'm glad it's not. Even after everything, even believing Dean is dead, he stays true to who he is. THIS is the Sam I love: Strong, competent and smart.

And because I do love Dean and feel that I haven't said enough about him: I loved how he told Mary that "saving people, hunting things" was what they did and that he feels they make the world a better place. I've waited a long time for him to come to that conclusion, to own who he is. Dean is all too aware of his faults, it's wonderful to see him acknowledge that he can do good.

Obviously waiting to watch makes me verbose. Sorry for the long post! Thanks for reading.

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, Partly said:

And because I do love Dean and feel that I haven't said enough about him: I loved how he told Mary that "saving people, hunting things" was what they did and that he feels they make the world a better place. I've waited a long time for him to come to that conclusion, to own who he is. Dean is all too aware of his faults, it's wonderful to see him acknowledge that he can do good.

Emphasis mine. 

I've seen this sentiment bandied about the interwebz but it kind of mystifies me.

Dean is the character who invoked "Saving people, hunting things, the family business" in literally the 2nd episode of the series. Dean has hunted his entire life and maintained that hunting was his way of doing good in the world even when he thinks he's a piece of shit (s4 - hunting made up for ditching chicks and credit card fraud).

At the end of s9, he said "I'm proud of us" to Sam before dying.  Dean only stopped hunting for a year in s6 because of a promise to Sam. Dean stopped hunting for the few months he was a demon but Dean hunted throughout s9 and s10 when he had the MoC. 

Dean has always based his worth in the world off through "saving people, hunting things", so I'm genuinely curious where this idea that he didn't accept or think he did good as a hunter comes from. 

[Proteus]

Could anyone make out all the people in Sams visions? Thanks.

[midge]

I'm a lurker mostly but just chiming it to say

- love the names for Lady McBuggerAll

- I will be very irritated if that didn't take the brass knuckles

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Could anyone make out all the people in Sams visions? Thanks.

I saw Mary,  Jessica and Dean. I'm sure there were others that I missed

[Proteus]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I saw Mary,  Jessica and Dean. I'm sure there were others that I missed

Ok, thanks. I also noticed Charlie and Kevin. I couldn't make out one woman.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh that's right, i did see Kevin. Damn, i deleted it from the DVR can't go back and check

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, midge said:

I will be very irritated if that didn't take the brass knuckles

Welcome, Midge!  I never even thought of that.  I have to assume they took them, but you never know with these writers.  Certainly both Dean and Cas would have wanted a closer look at those things, since she beat them so handily with them.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I think there are a couple variations of Dean in his visions.  I think someone listed them fairly well in an earlier post, but that was probably pages ago.

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Ok, thanks. I also noticed Charlie and Kevin. I couldn't make out one woman.

Found it on YouTube. 

 

I'm not sure who the Brunette is that looks like she's being choked. Could that be Charlie? 

[rue721]

On rewatch, I liked this episode even more than I did the first time. The atmosphere and tone were right. And I loved all the characters. Everybody just felt so in-character. Even Mary, even Cas.

Also, even the first time around, I sort of noticed this, but it didn't really register until now. When Mary comes into the garage and sees Baby, she says that the car looks great, and Dean looks all proud and is just like, "yeah..." He's kind of beaming.

Then Knuckles bashes right into the car and leaves a gigantic dent. We see Dean shaking his head over it a couple times during that scene (iIrc), and even when we watch the car drive off, the camera lingers on the dent. I thought the dent was sad because, you know, sucks that Baby got dented. But then I also thought that it was also sad that Mary had JUST complimented the car, and then it has to go get smashed up.

And that made me think about how it sucks that the BMOL assholes have to kidnap Sam NOW, just hours before Dean brings Mary back to the bunker to more-or-less introduce them. Even if all goes well in this rescue mission, the first time she's going to see Sam as a walking, talking person (instead of an infant), he's still going to be all beat up and burnt and shot and tripping out and just a complete mess. It's awful that for their first reunion, Sam couldn't be all healthy and happy -- and basically perfect, like Baby was when Mary "reunited" with her. If I were Dean, I would actually be furious about THAT, in addition to the usual fury over Sam being kidnapped, tortured, and threatened, of course. And poor Sam. Who wants to meet his mother for the first time looking completely damaged and pathetic. Hey mom, we did great without you, just look at my mangled body and tortured mind as proof of it. LOL.

2 hours ago, Partly said:

I love the stories that Dean told her to prove he was who he said. Not only that, but it gave us some interesting looks into Mary.

The only line that trips me up is the one about John knowing the words to every Zeppelin song. Who listens to the lyrics of Zeppelin songs? Shouldn't it have been "every guitar lick" or something, not every word?

It makes me laugh to think of John trying to woo Mary by singing her that hideous aiiiiiiiiiay-AHHHHH opening to "Immigrant Song." I mean, I guess that weird ass caw is a "lyric."

2 hours ago, Partly said:

My only reservation at this point is how much emphasis they are putting on her child. While it may just be an attempt to humanize her, I'm hoping there's more to it.

They made sure that we knew Cole had a child, and Cole even took a break from torturing Sam to speak to his kid on the phone.

I find it weird that they introduced M'Lady in the same way they introduced Cole, too. Both of their intros are basically: a blond man/woman leaves his/her young son at home, and ambushes Sam. He/she claims to have a long vendetta against the Winchesters -- although that vendetta turns out to be based in ignorance, natch. The Winchesters have never heard of him/her before, of course. The blond's "go to" move is to kidnap and horrifically torture Sam. Then he/she attempts to lure Dean to his/her lair, too by talking to him mockingly over the phone.

What's up with that?

2 hours ago, Partly said:

Sure you could say that he should have killed Lady Bauer but that's not Sam and I'm glad it's not. Even after everything, even believing Dean is dead, he stays true to who he is. THIS is the Sam I love: Strong, competent and smart.

I loved Sam so much in this episode. And at the end, when he's screaming, "no!" because he's still trapped in the basement? Jeez. He sounded so scared.

[Partly]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has always based his worth in the world off through "saving people, hunting things", so I'm genuinely curious where this idea that he didn't accept or think he did good as a hunter comes from. 

Anytime after season 2, possibly most times after season 1, it was either used as a mantra to keep them going (because they were unworthy to do anything else) or as an acknowledgment that they just did something both spectacularly impossible and incredible, thereby negating all the bad that is normally their life.

In my opinion he said that not so much an acknowledgement of his intrinsic value as much a way to make up for all his other failings. When he said it, it was as statement that *this time* they did a good thing. It didn't last, though, it wasn't permanent, it was a temporary balm before becoming unworthy again.

When Mary was talking about the hunting life it encompassed the boy's complete lives. Not just the single moments. When Dean says we make the world a better place, I see him talking about their lives as a whole. Mary said she never wanted *this life* for them, Dean's reply was that their lives were good. Not just as hunters, but as her children. Their *lives* were good.

I realize that's a subtle difference and I fully understand if I am seeing more than others do. To me it felt more encompassing and Dean seemed more at peace with the statement than he usually does when saying that.

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Even if all goes well in this rescue mission, the first time she's going to see Sam as a walking, talking person (instead of an infant), he's still going to be all beat up and burnt and shot and tripping out and just a complete mess. It's awful that for their first reunion, Sam couldn't be all healthy and happy

I don't worry too much about the boys getting banged up because Castiel just fixes them.  They're all banged up at this point, even Mary, so this didn't bother me too much.  I think they will both be so happy/astonished to finally meet each other that they won't even notice the rest of it.  But I do think it's a given that Dean, as well as Mary, Cas and Sam are going to be pissed at the BMOL.  They're assholes.  

[Proteus]

26 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Found it on YouTube. 

 

 

I'm not sure who the Brunette is that looks like she's being choked. Could that be Charlie? 

I could swear I just responded to this. The brunette isn't Charlie. I can't figure out who she is.

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Proteus said:

I could swear I just responded to this. The brunette isn't Charlie. I can't figure out who she is.

You did. I just quoted you again to give you the video if you wanted to watch the scene again.  I can't place that woman at all.

[Proteus]

Thanks. I can't either.

[Partly]

29 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The blond's "go to" move is to kidnap and horrifically torture Sam. Then he/she attempts to lure Dean to his/her lair, too by talking to him mockingly over the phone.

Except while Cole was definitely after Dean, I don't think that Lady Bauer kidnapped Sam to get to Dean.  I think she wanted Sam all along.  And she didn't mock him over the phone, she said very little and she didn't need to mock him, he was coming for Sam anyway.  She just sent Knuckles to intercept (and, I think, get rid of him).

[rue721]

Just now, Partly said:

Except while Cole was definitely after Dean, I don't think that Lady Bauer kidnapped Sam to get to Dean.  I think she wanted Sam all along.  And she didn't mock him over the phone, she said very little and she didn't need to mock him, he was coming for Sam anyway.  She just sent Knuckles to intercept (and, I think, get rid of him).

Yeah, I don't think even think we're supposed to see M'Lady Enhanced Interrogation as a similar character to Cole. That's why it's so strange to me how similar their introductions have been. Not that they've been identical but imo they ARE markedly similar. And tbh I can't even tell if that repetition is intentional or not!

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Partly said:

I realize that's a subtle difference and I fully understand if I am seeing more than others do. To me it felt more encompassing and Dean seemed more at peace with the statement than he usually does when saying that.

Thanks for that explanation

I have a differing take on that conversation.

I think it's fair to think Dean understood that Mary was thinking about her life as a hunter which was vampires, werewolves, other monster. Given how attentive to and in tune Dean had been with Mary throughout and how careful he was about what he told her, I think he was just assuring her they did good in the world despite it being in the world she never wanted them to be a part of.  

I'm disinclined to think he was including the soul selling, Hell going, demon blood drinking, Apocalypse starting, Mark of Cain bearing, demon becoming and Darkness releasing in that situation. IMO. YMMV. 

9 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I could swear I just responded to this. The brunette isn't Charlie. I can't figure out who she is.

The board is being derpy. I'm having to reload pages to get my posts to take. So you probably did but it didn't take.

Edited October 18, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

49 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Found it on YouTube. 

 

I'm not sure who the Brunette is that looks like she's being choked. Could that be Charlie? 

I think it might be Sarah.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it might be Sarah.

Oh yeah, could be.Seems odd to give that place to her. I would have put Pam or Ellen/Joe in there instead of Sarah

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh yeah, could be.Seems odd to give that place to her. I would have put Pam or Ellen/Joe in there instead of Sarah

I don't know, they all seem like people Sam feels responsible for and Sarah would be a big one. 

[bethy]

Were the words Sam heard Dean say things Dean had actually said? Like, "I'm dead because of you"? Or "We're all dead because of you"? I don't remember Dean saying that. I think Sam heard Dean call him a freak on the voicemail Dean didn't leave, but I'm blanking on the other stuff.

[SueB]

On 10/15/2016 at 2:37 PM, SueB said:

Second Watch Pickups:

- Who Sam saw: Kevin, Sarah, Dean, Meg (!), Mom, Dean, Jessica.  I was a little stunned by showing Meg (when she got killed as they were retrieving the Angel tablet).  As a Meg fan, I kinda like that Sam regrets her death.  I KNOW she's a demon and I do love Ellen and Jo more, but I admired Meg's loyalty. So, I'm glad to see that Sam ending up feeling something for Meg despite their complicated history. Also glad they showed Sarah.  I LOVE that a little MOTW character got such a lasting effect. Her death really sticks with Sam.  All of these are the deaths Sam feels responsible for.  Meg seems a weird add, but he left Meg to guard his exit, so I can see how she made the list.

Pretty sure this is the list. 

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

Were the words Sam heard Dean say things Dean had actually said? Like, "I'm dead because of you"? Or "We're all dead because of you"? I don't remember Dean saying that. I think Sam heard Dean call him a freak on the voicemail Dean didn't leave, but I'm blanking on the other stuff.

I don't think so, I think it's just Sam's own mind playing tricks on him. I think they are all people Sam feels are dead because of him, though. 

[SueB]

The words were new IMO. 

[Wynne88]

Quote

I love the stories that Dean told her to prove he was who he said. Not only that, but it gave us some interesting looks into Mary.

I think it's interesting that Dean took Mary at face value; no testing to see if she was a shapeshifter or anything.  

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I think it's interesting that Dean took Mary at face value; no testing to see if she was a shapeshifter or anything.  

This was disappointing for me. Like he just trusts Amara really gave back his actual Mom? Given you know, all that Amara's influence turned him into Demon Killy McStabberson for 2 years...I hope it doesn't come back to bite him in the ass where we find out Mary is not Mary.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

The words were new IMO. 

I don't think the words were new. It seemed more like a round of Dean MadLibs in Sam's memory because "monster" and "your fault/not yourfault" were referenced like 4 or 5 times. Dean has said those words in relationship to Sam but not in the context that Sam's memory loop was implying. It actually really pissed me off that Dean saying "it's all your fault" were the words Sam locked on before he broke the glass and went for his throat. 

What is kind of unclear to me on re-watch is if Sam really was going to slit his own throat but then at the last  moment changed his mind and improvised the ruse after maybe he scared himself when he put the shard to his own throat.

I don't think that is for nothing.  

[enaiowen]

So I was also thinking the Brunette was Sarah so I forced myself to rewatch her death in " Clip Show" to be sure.

It's her.

[Partly]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What is kind of unclear to me on re-watch is if Sam really was going to slit his own throat but then at the last  moment changed his mind and improvised the ruse after maybe he scared himself when he put the shard to his own throat.

I didn't see that at all. In fact, what I really liked about Sam in this episode was how strong he was. He may have been thinking that killing himself could be a way out and it would leave Lady Bauer with nothing but I didn't get that impression. 

My feeling is that he took the he worst that Lady Bauer could do physically and mentally and ended up saying "screw you" everytime. I know he failed in his escape but if he was really considering killing himself she left him down there with plenty of ways he could do that. I just don't think that is an option he's considering. 

It would be nice to see Sam -- both the boys, actually -- move beyond the guilt-games that have been continuously used against them. I'm more than willing to keep a positive spin to the episodes until they prove me completely wrong. 

 

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

.I hope it doesn't come back to bite him in the ass where we find out Mary is not Mary.

I think it's a case that Dean couldn't bring himself to doubt it. He wants it to be true so he accepts it. More than that I don't think he could handle it if Mary wasn't Mary. It's not smart but it's understandable.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, enaiowen said:

So I was also thinking the Brunette was Sarah so I forced myself to rewatch her death in " Clip Show" to be sure.

It's her.

Thank you so much!

Thanks to DittyDotDot as well!

Edited October 18, 2016 by Proteus

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

My feeling is that he took the he worst that Lady Bauer could do physically and mentally and ended up saying "screw you" everytime. I know he failed in his escape but if he was really considering killing himself she left him down there with plenty of ways he could do that. I just don't think that is an option he's considering. 

I've read some opinions that Sam  goaded Lady FuckOffandDie into shooting him at the end of s11 because why else would he approach someone with a gun and taunt her about not shooting him. I don't think he did but he is grieving Dean. Sure they deal with death all the time, but this time there was no coming back for Dean. Combine that ongoing NEW grief with hours of endless physical torture and the mind screw that made him hallucinate all his dead loved ones and friends & Dean's voice telling him he's a monster and everything is his fault, I can see where Sam might have a moment of "fuck it. I've had enough" when he punched the mirror. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Partly said:

Anytime after season 2, possibly most times after season 1, it was either used as a mantra to keep them going (because they were unworthy to do anything else) or as an acknowledgment that they just did something both spectacularly impossible and incredible, thereby negating all the bad that is normally their life.

I never saw it that way. Dean didn't need a mantra to convince himself to keep hunting. He believed they were doing good. Sure he got frustrated but Sam was the one that wanted out of the hunting life. Sam never thought he was unworthy of doing anything else, he went to Stanford. He was going to go to law school until Dean asked him to help find John. He stayed with Dean to find John and get vengeance on Azazel. Maybe Sam needed the mantra but that was Dean's legitimate life purpose.

I think here Dean simply wanted Mary to know that despite doing the very thing she never wanted they did good. I'll just agree to disagree that Dean is only NOW seeing he does good in the world via hunting. 

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, they all seem like people Sam feels responsible for and Sarah would be a big one. 

I knew it was people that Sam felt guilty over since Dean said something like "you killed us all". But I would think Pam (who died working a spell for Sam/Dean to stop Lilith) or Ellen/Joe who died trying to stop Lucifer after Sam let him out of the cage would have been more appropriate.  However, that's neither heare nor there, just my personal preference.

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Pretty sure this is the list. 

Thanks for list, i didn't even realize that was Meg, probably because I forgot she was blond(ish) in that one episode. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, Partly said:

I didn't see that at all. In fact, what I really liked about Sam in this episode was how strong he was. He may have been thinking that killing himself could be a way out and it would leave Lady Bauer with nothing but I didn't get that impression. 

My feeling is that he took the he worst that Lady Bauer could do physically and mentally and ended up saying "screw you" everytime. I know he failed in his escape but if he was really considering killing himself she left him down there with plenty of ways he could do that. I just don't think that is an option he's considering. 

I don't think he was ever going to slit his throat, either. Not that I don't think he maybe wanted to, but I also think he is trying to honor Dean's memory more this time around. He knows the last thing Dean would want is for him to give up. I also got the impression Sam was basically thinking, "What would Dean do?" I think that's exactly why he approached Lady Toni the way he did back in the bunker and exactly why he kept saying, "Screw you" after she'd shot and tortured him. 

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I knew it was people that Sam felt guilty over since Dean said something like "you killed us all". But I would think Pam (who died working a spell for Sam/Dean to stop Lilith) or Ellen/Joe who died trying to stop Lucifer after Sam let him out of the cage would have been more appropriate.  However, that's neither heare nor there, just my personal preference.

I only find it appropriate simply because Sarah was a civilian and innocent. She literally died only because someone was trying to get at him. And, if they'd never tried to pull the lever and close the gates of Hell, she's still be alive. Ellen, Jo and Pamela all knew what they were getting into even if them getting into it ultimately was due to decisions he made. 

Although, @SueB pointed out one of the visions were of Meg (I didn't remember that, but trust she is right), and I'm not sure why he would feel guilty about her. That's not to say I didn't like the character, but it's not like she was really their friend or an innocent or that she was dead because of him. Look at all the shit she pulled before she decided to switch teams for her own survival and she chose to stay behind and give herself up so she could take her shot at Crowley. So, I got nothin'.

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think the words were new. It seemed more like a round of Dean MadLibs in Sam's memory because "monster" and "your fault/not yourfault" were referenced like 4 or 5 times. Dean has said those words in relationship to Sam but not in the context that Sam's memory loop was implying. It actually really pissed me off that Dean saying "it's all your fault" were the words Sam locked on before he broke the glass and went for his throat. 

I agree the words aren't entirely new, they're all things Dean has said at one point or the other, they're just taken out of context and mashed up in Sam's trippin' head right then. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, Partly said:

Obviously waiting to watch makes me verbose. Sorry for the long post!

Heh heh..Don't apologize!  If waiting to watch gives us great posts like this, take your time!

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It actually really pissed me off that Dean saying "it's all your fault" were the words Sam locked on before he broke the glass and went for his throat. 

I don't understand why this would piss you off though?  I mean, in addition to Sam being on some heavy duty hallucinogenic drugs, he's been tortured, so his body is reeling from that also (which makes him more susceptible to the drugs, I think).  He may also be dehydrated (in spite of the shower) and how long's it been since he ate?  His mind is obviously playing some dirty tricks on him, thanks to Lady CanIRipHerTongueOutNow.  In the past, Sam thought his greatest "sin" was letting Dean down.

Now thinking of this another way - perhaps it was that "it's all your fault" which inspired Sam to fake slicing his throat?  Because after all they've been through, he knew that's something Dean would never say to him, and that allowed some rational part of his mind to take back control. 

[trxr4kids]

I think Sam knew he'd been drugged and knew he was hallucinating because of it. So I think Sam handled the hallucinations the same way he did before, he punched the mirror to cause pain to give him a moment of clarity, in that moment he picks up the piece of glass probably digging in further and boom he has a plan. It was even the same hand from his old hallucination/pain scar is right?

[bethy]

I feel like Sam's hallucinations were part leftover/remembered feelings of guilt - Jessica, Dean after Sam had beat him up - part just mishmash of all the crap that had happened around him in his life. The mind is a crazy place and Sam's seen more than his far share of crazy in his life, so who knows why his brain picked out what it did. I'm not sure what the point of drugging him actually was, though. Lady ForgotAbouttheBostonTeaParty seemed surprised that Sam reacted the way he did in terms of trying to kill himself. What was she expecting?