JonBenet Ramsey

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

It seemed like the Ramseys wanted to get the hell out of Dodge as soon as possible (and avoid law enforcement). They wanted to leave for Atlanta right away and I think the Whites talked to them and told them that it would look bad and would be better for the investigation if they stayed for a while to assist the police.

Yes, I think John called his pilot around 30-60 minutes after JB's body was found. A police officer overheard him and told him he needed to stick around to help them with the case. John then told him he had a VERY important meeting he couldn't get out of. WHAT? I thought they were supposed to fly to Michigan for a 2nd Christmas? Where did this sudden, pressing meeting in ATL come from? And I think most people would accept "my daughter has been murdered" as a valid reason for missing a business meeting. 

Those people were 12 shades of fucked. 

3 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Didn't Kolar also say in Foreign Faction that although Patsy was acting distraught and covering her face with her hands, he kept catching her peeking through her fingers at him as though to gauge his reactions to her distraught-ness? Or was that in a different book?

No, it was in FF. I actually just posted about this a day or two ago. It wasn't Kolar, I believe it was Officer French. 

[Cara]

I heard the latest podcast from Jim Clemete and Laura Richards. They mentioned a couple of things I don't remember from the show. Maybe it was in the 2 hours which were cut. They said JB's pillow was not on her bed but was on the kitchen counter. That's incredibly strange. They also said the cob web was made on the outside portion of the window and had debris in it.

[Jel]

Some creepy reading for those who have always been creeped out by "Santa" :

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.true-crime/2006-07/msg00781.html

[Jel]

Thinking of the ransom note -- the terms "attaché" (for brief case) and "fat cats" seem old fashioned to me.  Going to add "foreign faction" to that list, too.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Jel

[spunky]

On 9/22/2016 at 10:46 AM, Jel said:

Thanks for that info, SonofaBiscuit. 

I'll be right up front and say, despite the oddities of the case, and Burke's odd behavior, I think an intruder (or more than one) did it.  I also note, that for many of these article writers, and maybe even the police, "body residue" (fingerprints/dna) seems highly relevant and important to the case when it involves the Ramseys, and inconclusive or even inconsequential when it points to anyone else.  Same seems to be true for fibers, boot prints, etc. Confirmation bias at play, imo.

Burke's behavior was odd as a child (way too much smiling) and seeming lack of care. Maybe he did resent his sister, maybe he was actually very jealous of her, maybe there was a part of him (and I feel awful typing this, but here goes) that was not that unhappy his sister wasn't around anymore. Maybe that explains some of his behavior, even if he didn't do it himself?  Or maybe he's just a person who smiles when he is nervous (Dr. Phil's take).

Personally, I think Ramseys' truthfulness about both the broken window and the bowl of pineapple points more to their innocence over their guilt. Liars, in my experience, are only too willing to go with whatever suggestion someone else offers to back up their own stories -- seems both the unidentified pineapple provider and the broken window would have lent credence to their intruder "story", and I think they would have happily let those things erroneously point to their intruder lie had they been making it up.

But, childhood Burke's reaction to the pineapple, I thought, was very odd. Red flag odd. 

Burke seems socially awkward. He stated that he went back to sleep because he thought she was hiding. She probably hid in different places as a game. I also read his smile as nervousness. He doesn't seem to like attention.

[ReeseyPeesey]

6 hours ago, Cara said:

I heard the latest podcast from Jim Clemete and Laura Richards. They mentioned a couple of things I don't remember from the show. Maybe it was in the 2 hours which were cut. They said JB's pillow was not on her bed but was on the kitchen counter. That's incredibly strange. They also said the cob web was made on the outside portion of the window and had debris in it.

I agree, too weird. 

[Chai]

Just a few of my thoughts. I also borrowed a copy of FF on my Amazon Kindle. Thank you for the suggestion! :-)

 

     I think the Ramseys staged JBR body because they were protecting someone. I think there is someone they would both work  together to protect. The fact they seem estranged/keep separate from each other  while police were there speaks volumes to me. A few things could have happened:

Someone early on suggested PR may have caught JR abusing JBR and may have struck out with that kind of force at HIM but may have accidentially hit Jonbenet instead.

Or, there is so much strange behavior going on with Burke I wouldn't be surprised what he did. If he did anything, then there is the whole reason to stage her murder. They were hiding his past sexual abuse  of her from everyone.

Personally, I think a kid would make a cup of tea exactly that way, in whatever first glass they reach first. Getting a bowl of fruit is something simple a 9 year old can certainly do. 

If the two kids were up and getting something to eat (or Burke was getting something. Then JBR woke up and came down) they could very well have a fight over anything and have it get out of hand. That would explain Patsy saying she never got him the snack.

 

I just don't believe there was an intruder. They would have left something of themselves behind.

 

The way JBR was wrapped like a papoose in her blanket reminds me of how you swaddle a newborn baby. Someone was showing remorse and caring for this child, just like when she was a baby. 

Unfortunately, I think they had enough money and influence to get out of this mess. If this happened to anyone else we would be cast as misfit parents and rotting in jail somewhere.

[ghoulina]

So it's been brought up that maybe JB was grabbed and pulled by her shirt, leaving the marks on her neck. Well, I was reading further in FF last night, and Werner Spitz, the forensic pathologist from this doc, actually consulted on the original autopsy findings. Apparently there WAS evidence of her shirt choking her a bit. There were markings on the front of her throat, striped/weaved in nature, that gave the impression that they were from her clothing. Spitz theorized that she was grabbed from the FRONT and held up by her shirt possibly. There was also apparently a round bruise in the same vicinity, that he believes was likely from a knuckle of the person holding her shirt like that. He thinks that was the first injury. And he also thinks THAT is when she was clawing at her neck, and where those markings came from. 

The blow to the head came next. It didn't kill her immediately, but it is believed that it would have, if she hadn't been strangled. She was alive during that, but he does not believe she was conscious. He does not think she EVER regained consciousness from the severity of that blow, and her body systems were shutting down as oxygen left the brain. 

So, if he is correct, I can see the "staging" killing her, when they already thought she was dead. 

Also, he says because mucus was found UNDER the duct tape over her mouth, and the fact that there was a perfect lip print on it, the tape must have been put on when she was completely still - either after the blow to the head or after she was actually dead. 

This really points to staging, IMO. Why would you put duct tape over a child's mouth? To keep her silent. When would you want to keep her silent? Right away. Maybe she screamed, she's thrashing about. You hurry and cover her mouth to keep her quiet. If that was the case, you would find the lip imprint to be smeared, not perfectly aligned. 

Also, the cords tied around her wrists were really loose and left no marks. Again, why would you bind a child's wrists? To keep them still and secure. If that was the case, they'd be tight - like the one on her neck. There'd be markings. No, this was done after the fact, on a motionless child. 

There was more that stood out to me, but I can't remember right now. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

I highly recommend Perfect Murder,  Perfect Town and Foreign Faction for those of you looking to read more into this case.  Steve Thomas' book  is whiny and repetitive at times, but goes into detail about how the Ramseys and their Atlanta friends stonewalled investigators from the beginning. That they'd rather move on with their lives than be bothered with the murder of Jonbenet. 

 

It's my opinion that the Ramseys being wealthy,  had deep political ties in Boulder and Atlanta and the best attorneys money can buy.  The Boulder PD screwed this up and the Ramseys used it to their advantage,  for sure.  But there seemed to be some political things going on behind the scenes that prevented them from being brought to trial. 

The one thing that will always puzzle me about this case: a three page ransom note is left on a spiral staircase. Patsy steps over this three page note in the dark, without tripping of falling,  manages to read it without ever picking it up or touching it.  No fingerprints found on the note. She calls 911 and is able to tell the operater that it says 'Victory!  SBTC'.  However,  she admitted she didn't read the entire note.  John comes running downstairs and manages to read the three pages without ever picking up the note. None of their fingerprints found on this note. If you found a ransom note,  wouldn't you want to pick it up and read what it says?  Unless of course  ,you already know what it says. 

 

As for DNA found on JBR's clothing,  I've read that her bedroom was used as a guest room on occasion . So Ramsey guests would be staying in her bed or in the other bed in her room,  leaving their fibers and skin cells in her room. 

 

Another thing: Jonbenet was never allowed to have sleepovers, only Burke. Burke could invite friends to sleep over but never JonBenet. 

[TattleTeeny]

http://www.aetv.com/specials/the-killing-of-jonbenet-her-father-speaks

Looks like the Dr. Phil interview wasn't John Ramsey's last. This preview for this one (Sunday night at 9) shows him responding to stuff that was addressed in the Dateline (?) show.

Quote

At the time, I remember thinking no footprints in the snow would suggest no intruder. Is that the message the BPD wanted to send the public? If so, why? What does public opinion have to do with their professional murder investigation? That seems a lil shady to me.

Because they were  shady, whether or not they end up being right after all of this time. I wonder the same thing about the window--why on earth would they press so hard about it being too small for a person to climb through when it obviously is not? Why not just say that the window is being considered in the investigation--or say nothing declarative about it at all? Again, even if they are 100% correct, their tactics for expressing that were bad, bad bad. They were being just as publicly pigheaded as the Ramseys, which looked very unprofessional and did them (the cops) no favors.

Quote

I heard the latest podcast from Jim Clemete and Laura Richards.

Somewhat unrelated: WTF is wrong with the sound quality on that damn podcast? If I forget to turn the volume down in my car when I park and take my phone with me, I will scare myself to death when I turn it on later! Also, I hate the commercial placement--right in the middle of someone talking. All of a sudden, the host is talking about Blue Apron deliveries and I'm like, "Wha'?"

Jim Clemente's voice sounds like Coach McGuirk/Archer/Bob of Bob's Burgers. His looks also do not match his voice! And is the JonBenét episode you listened to new? Th least one I heard on the case was before the TV show aired. I've been listening to the O.J. ones all week.

Edited October 1, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[AZChristian]

I'm not aware that the cops ever said the window was "too small for a person to climb through."  I thought they said it was too small for a person to climb through while leaving the undisturbed old spider web in the corner.  The two people I've seen on video demonstrating the window was big enough for a person showed that their (skinny) hips completely filled the window frame from side to side and would have resulted in the destruction of the spider web.  

[Cara]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

 And is the JonBenét episode you listened to new? Th least one I heard on the case was before the TV show aired. I've been listening to the O.J. ones all week.

Yes, it's episode 38. It was uploaded earlier this week. They have done several episodes about the Ramsey case.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Cara

[BitterApple]

Regarding John, didn't he say the reason he called the pilot was to cancel their flight? I don't think he's squeaky clean in this, but I have a hard time taking the cop's word at face value, especially after one of them thought she was going to have a Wild West shoot out with Boulder's well-heeled elite.

[Joe Jitsu913]

On 9/19/2016 at 8:01 PM, Court said:

I have another question regarding the ransom note. Did the intruder write it before the murder or afterwards? What are the theories regarding that?

FBI Profiler John Douglas (hired by the Ramseys at one point)  states in his book "The Cases that Haunt Us" that most criminals he's met who commit a murder are too wired and anxious to do anything else.  They're running on pure adrenaline.  He mentioned that a killer wouldn't be in the right kind of frame of mind to sit there and write a lengthy ransom note (along with a practice note).  Whomever did this crime,  according to him,  would have to write the note before killing JonBenet.  He also profiles the type of offender to commit this crime as a "mission oriented offender", young male who had a grudge against John Ramsey. 

He also stated John Ramsey being the one to discover the body was unusual.  Usually,  in this type of scenario,  a parent involved  in this type of scenario  would allow someone else to find the body first which didn't happen here. 

[jaync]

Just a few questions I have that I don't remember being addressed on the show (and forgive me if they were discussed elsewhere in the forum):

- Was the paintbrush handle and cord an actual garrote in the technical sense, or could it have been more of a tourniquet? Were there any movies in the house that contained a scene with a garrote?

- Had the piece of duct tape been cut from the roll with scissors/knife, or had it been torn (with the tear possibly being started with the suspect's teeth)?

- Did Lou Smit try to climb back through the basement window to the outside, using the suitcase as a step? Given the position of the suitcase in regards to the window, an intruder would've had to either stand on it in a surfer's stance, or position both feet on one end, which likely would've tipped the suitcase over after stepping off it. Wouldn't it have made more sense for an intruder to place the suitcase parallel to the wall, so as to get a better balance?

- Could the oversized panties been purchased to fit over diapers/pull-ups?

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I'm not aware that the cops ever said the window was "too small for a person to climb through."  

It was one of the things I recall reading about repeatedly way back when this all started.

[starri]

On 9/25/2016 at 11:30 PM, pythonite said:

Santa made my skin crawl when I watched him being interviewed years ago. It was all weird little stories about how important Santa Bill was to JBR, and he struck me as being far too at ease with the idea she was dead. I'm very suspicious of his intentions toward the little girl, he was obsessed with her in an unhealthy way. I though it was him.

If memory serves, for however odd/creepy Santa was, he'd also had open-heart surgery a few weeks prior, and was so weakened by it, he couldn't keep his job as a mall Santa.  That makes him as a perp extremely unlikely.

I know discussion of this goes around and around in circles, but that doesn't really mean the discussion is any less fun.  I've always been under the impression that Patsy was the actual killer (generously, let's call it an accident), and when I read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town that kind of strengthened my option.  I really liked the specials, even though they clearly came at it with the belief that Burke was the one who did it.  But what I also don't know for sure is if that's an artifact of their investigation probably having been completed before they started filming.

[starri]

36 minutes ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

FBI Profiler John Douglas (hired by the Ramseys at one point)  states in his book "The Cases that Haunt Us" that most criminals he's met who commit a murder are too wired and anxious to do anything else.  They're running on pure adrenaline.  He mentioned that a killer wouldn't be in the right kind of frame of mind to sit there and write a lengthy ransom note (along with a practice note).

I have a lot of issues with John Douglas, particularly since he earned money off of the case.  I also don't think profiling is this exact science the FBI pretends that it is.  If we're not to take any clues from how John and Patsy acted in the days after the case, because there's no one way people are going to react to that kind of stress, then doesn't that also apply to this?

Also, try as I might, I cannot come up with any scenario where it's more likely someone other than Patsy wrote that note.

[ghoulina]

35 minutes ago, jaync said:

- Could the oversized panties been purchased to fit over diapers/pull-ups?

I've thought about that, but I think they're still too big for even that. My kids have worn pullups when they were younger, and I'd just put their regular underwear over them. Pullups might have been bulkier back then, so I cold see going ONE size up. But JB apparently had a drawer full of nothing but size 4 underwear, and the Bloomies were what? 10-12? It's a HUGE difference. 

 

New, weird things that stuck out to me, while reading FF:

1. Dr. Beuf, the family pediatrician, was also at the house that morning. So, they call their two best friends, the reverend AND the children's doctor? What did he need to be there for? Weird. 

Also, Rev Holverstock said that when Ramsey ran up the basement stairs with JB, he said either "I don't think he  meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket" or "She was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket". You don't think he meant to hill her? You've just found your six-year-old little girl murdered and you're already defending the guy who did it? And it seems like he was really trying to get people to focus on the blanket. He is right, in the sense that covering a dead body usually shows in care and intimacy. I just wonder if those comments were a bit of Freudian slip.

Edited October 1, 2016 by ghoulina

[BitterApple]

34 minutes ago, jaync said:

 

- Did Lou Smit try to climb back through the basement window to the outside, using the suitcase as a step? Given the position of the suitcase in regards to the window, an intruder would've had to either stand on it in a surfer's stance, or position both feet on one end, which likely would've tipped the suitcase over after stepping off it. Wouldn't it have made more sense for an intruder to place the suitcase parallel to the wall, so as to get a better balance

Oooh, that's a really good question. Even a hard-sided suitcase would be wobbly if you were trying to climb up on it the way it was positioned in the crime scene photos. If we're assuming the intruder was an average sized man, getting in the window would've been much easier than getting out. I guess the intruder could've gone out a door, but then why leave the body? Just more evidence to draw doubt on IDI.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

He also stated John Ramsey being the one to discover the body was unusual.  Usually,  in this type of scenario,  a parent involved  in this type of scenario  would allow someone else to find the body first which didn't happen here.

I'm far from an expert, but this sounds off to me. I thought I read somewhere that it's actually quite common to lead people to the body, maybe to get it over with? I don't think John did it, just the cover up. But I figured he was so antsy, because he knew they'd find it at some point, and wanted to get it over with. Also, if you already know your child is dead, it might not be easy to keep pretending she was kidnapped. I think he wanted to move on. When Arndt sent him and and Fleet to search for anything out of place, he went immediately to the basement. Then he seemed, to me, to wait until Fleet was busy (moving a fireplace grate in the train room) to actually find the body. According to White, John yelled out BEFORE turning on the light. But when Fleet checked the room earlier, he couldn't see anything in the dark.

Edited October 1, 2016 by ghoulina

[WhitneyWhit]

The kidnapping theory makes less and less sense to me each time I think of the case. Maybe I missed it, but has anyone involved in the investigation ever speculated as to why the kidnapper would take JB to the basement if they were planning on kidnapping her? Sure, the kidnapper could get in through the window. but I think it would be difficult to get back out through it with a child in tow. I suppose they could make JB crawl out first, but then she could run for help, and if he crawled out first, she could run back upstairs.

I've also been trying to put together a timeline of an intruder. So someone breaks in and heads to the basement while no one is home and waits, the Ramseys come home and everyone goes to bed (except not because Patsy gave Burke a snack of pineapple) he comes upstairs and places the ransom note on the spiral staircase, we'll say he does this while going up them. He goes and gets JB, he can no longer go down the spiral staircase because the ransom note is there, so he has to walk through that maze of a second floor and down the main staircase, then they end up in the basement.

I mean, I just think someone would have heard something, anything, with all this going on. And even if he wrote the note after JB was dead, that still doesn't make much sense because it would only add more time that he would be in the house and again raises the risk of getting caught. Again, I just think if it were a kidnapping gone bad, a kidnapper would ditch the body and haul ass.

[Joe Jitsu913]

10 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I've thought about that, but I think they're still too big for even that. My kids have worn pullups when they were younger, and I'd just put their regular underwear over them. Pullups might have been bulkier back then, so I cold see going ONE size up. But JB apparently had a drawer full of nothing but size 4 underwear, and the Bloomies were what? 10-12? It's a HUGE difference. 

 

New, weird things that stuck out to me, while reading FF:

1. Dr. Beuf, the family pediatrician, was also at the house that morning. So, they call their two best friends, the reverend AND the children's doctor? What did he need to be there for? Weird.

He prescribed Patsy with Valium and told detectives that she was not in the frame of mind to be interviewed. 

[pamplemousse]

13 hours ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

He prescribed Patsy with Valium and told detectives that she was not in the frame of mind to be interviewed. 

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but he's a pediatrician. Patsy was not his patient, how did he even have the authority to prescribe her medication? It's probably not grounds enough for medical malpractice or anything, but it strikes me as weird and sketchy.

[starri]

As long as he has a medical license, he can legally prescribe to anybody.  I'm curious about what she was on during the infamous interview.  As tranquilizers go, Valium is fairly mild unless she poured it down her throat.

[ghoulina]

6 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but he's a pediatrician. Patsy was not his patient, how did he even have the authority to prescribe her medication? It's probably not grounds enough for medical malpractice or anything, but it strikes me as weird and sketchy.

It does feel sketchy, to me. I don't begrudge the mother of a dead child some Valium, but it seems weird to have a child's doctor prescribe it. I don't know what kind of relationship they had, but I can't imagine calling my kids' doc over during a time like that. The kidnapper may have been watching and they turn the place into grand central station.  

 

14 hours ago, WhitneyWhit said:

The kidnapping theory makes less and less sense to me each time I think of the case. Maybe I missed it, but has anyone involved in the investigation ever speculated as to why the kidnapper would take JB to the basement if they were planning on kidnapping her?

I believe Lou Smitt's theory was that the kidnapping was a ruse even WITH an intruder. That it was some sadistic pedophile who killed JB, and he wrote the note to throw people off. That still sounds too risky to me.

[pamplemousse]

6 minutes ago, starri said:

As long as he has a medical license, he can legally prescribe to anybody.  I'm curious about what she was on during the infamous interview.  As tranquilizers go, Valium is fairly mild unless she poured it down her throat.

That strikes me as very dangerous, that a doctor could prescribe any medication to anyone he wanted with no restrictions -- it seems so unregulated and inappropriate. Granted, I could understand in an emergency situation like on an airplane if someone was choking or something life-threatening was occurring and they ask if there is a doctor around to provide emergency care, the doctor should be able to act in his medical capacity, but she wasn't in immediate threat of dying.

I do not have children, but I can remember my pediatrician when I was a child and I cannot imagine her ever agreeing to prescribe either of my parents medication had they asked even if they were having an emotional breakdown. I'm sure she would've referred them to their own personal physicians.

Edited October 2, 2016 by pamplemousse

[AZChristian]

Random thought while I was in the car today.

Let's assume there was an intruder.  According to one theory, he came in through the window and was there for hours waiting for the Ramseys to come home from their evening out.  During this time, he wrote the very long ransom note on materials he found there in the house, but his intent all along was to simply kidnap JB and hold her for ransom.

Wouldn't you assume that he would have heard them come home, and - if he had a grain of sense - would have already checked out the location of the keypad of the alarm system (with all those hours he had to spare)?  SO . . . wouldn't he have known that the alarm hadn't been set before the Ramseys went to bed?  So ANY door would have been an easy exit.  He could have grabbed the kid, held his hand over her mouth, and hightailed it out of there.  That's what a KIDNAPPER who wanted RANSOM would have done, logically.

However, if a child was killed by accident or in a fit of rage by a family member, all the hours from the time they got home until they called the police would have been spent writing a LONG "ransom" note and trying everything else they could do to cover up and mislead the police.

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

 

However, if a child was killed by accident or in a fit of rage by a family member, all the hours from the time they got home until they called the police would have been spent writing a LONG "ransom" note and trying everything else they could do to cover up and mislead the police.

Excellent points. I think John and Patsy realized they were fucked once they discovered JonBenet's body. They couldn't call 911 and report a fall down the stairs because who knows what would show up on autopsy. They couldn't come clean and admit Burke did it because they feared losing their son. They couldn't get rid of the body because there's a chance they could've been spotted and I don't think they had the callousness to do it. So the "kidnapping gone wrong" was their most viable option. It explains the nonsensical ransom note and poor staging. The Ramsey were making it up as they went and were too frazzled to see the inconsistencies in the plan.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Per an interview with Diane Sawyer :

 

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) And there is someone else who was there that night who says Patsy Ramsey had collapsed.

(From taped telephone conversation) 

Dr. FRANCESCO (PH) BEUF, JonBenet's Pediatrician: She was just lying on the floor.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) His name is Dr. Francesco Beuf. He was JonBenet's pediatrician. He talked to me by phone about whether Mrs. Ramsey's grief was real.

(From taped telephone conversation) 

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Oh, for God's sake, she was as devastated as anyone could be by a terrible loss like that. They called me to provide some tranquilizers for her. She was absolutely shattered by this.

DIANE SAWYER: And Mr. Ramsey?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: He looked absolutely devastated. To me, they were the most appropriate reactions in the world. God knows, I wouldn't know how I'd react if one of my children had been murdered, particularly in such horrible circumstances. He paced and paced and paced. He and I went out for a walk for a while that night. It's the wreckage of two human beings.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Even so, we were told the Ramseys volunteered to give hair, fingerprint, blood samples. And John Ramsey offered to be formally interviewed by the police if he could do it in the house near his family. Bynum says it didn't happen only because police wanted both parents, and Dr. Beuf said Patsy Ramsey wasn't able to talk.

(From taped telephone conversation) 

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: I had advised that it was not good to have Patsy there because she was under heavy sedation and would not have been able to function. And then the story came out that the Ramseys had refused to be interviewed by the police. That is just flat wrong. I sat there.

[starri]

5 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

That strikes me as very dangerous, that a doctor could prescribe any medication to anyone he wanted with no restrictions -- it seems so unregulated and inappropriate. Granted, I could understand in an emergency situation like on an airplane if someone was choking or something life-threatening was occurring and they ask if there is a doctor around to provide emergency care, the doctor should be able to act in his medical capacity, but she wasn't in immediate threat of dying.

As someone who is planning on becoming a psychiatrist in a few months of the gods of Graduate Medical Education smile on me, it's not that far-fetched and not that inappropriate, depending on the situation.  I generally frown on giving patients tranquilizers unless they're a danger to themselves, but I had one patient last week who came in so distraught, I decided (or rather I asked my supervising doctor and he concurred) that we should give him/her a small dose of Ativan to smooth things over.  And the patient left with a short prescription for a tranquilizer, which is something we don't usually do in the emergency room, but that I again felt was appropriate.  

I don't know what Patsy's state of mind was at that time, but whether she had woken up to find that a stranger had killed JonBenet or that Burke had done, or she had done, or John had done, I could see her being hysterical.  Although the 911 call does make me give a little side-eye.

Also, there's generally a separate set of rules for giving controlled substances to the rich, especially back then.

[ghoulina]

It's just weird, to me, that it's the kid doctor. She didn't have her OWN doctor? Probably, but appeared closer to the pediatrician. Why? Was he their friend prior, and that's WHY they chose him as their children's doctor? I just remember the 17 visits (or whatever it was) in one year, and the 3 calls made to his office within one hour, just days before the murder. It strikes me as an odd relationship. 

 

Another odd thing - the ransom note had no fingerprints on it. Now, an intruder would likely wear gloves, so that makes sense. Buy why wouldn't the parents' prints be on there? They supposedly handled it. Although, I always found it weird that Patsy said she saw it while coming down that spiral staircase, and stepped over it, and THEN read it. Wouldn't you immediately pick it up? Why step over it? I've seen that staircase, it's very tight. I wouldn't try to step over anything on there. But it's not like she didn't want to touch it because she was so interested in preserving evidence; she later invited half the town over! Plus, John apparently moved it to the landing below the stairs and then spread it out to read. On the floor. Which is also weird. Why not a counter or table? 

We'll never have explanations for many of these things. But I'd wager that the parents wore gloves when staging the scene and that's why there are no fingerprints on the note. They didn't take them off until John had moved it, if it ever was moved. Did police find it on the spiral staircase? Or was that only what was told to them by the Ramseys? Was it on the floor by the time police arrived?

Edited October 3, 2016 by ghoulina

[AZChristian]

To quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

It would have been impossible for the parents to handle the note without leaving fingerprints.  It would have been impossible for someone to come through the basement window and leave the cobweb intact.  It would have been impossible for John to see JonBenet's body wrapped in a blanket in a room with no windows before he turned on the light.

As improbable as it is that a rich couple would attempt to cover up the death of their daughter, that must be the truth.  Whether it was an accident, an act of rage, covering up for their son's action, finishing her off with a garotte because she wasn't quite dead but they were committed to the cover-up . . . the truth is that they were BOTH involved in the cover-up.

[Jel]

Re: the finger prints/staging. Wouldn't Ramsey prints on a note be pretty easy to explain away? "I picked it up to read it."  Why the need for the gloves to write it?

The coming through the window is one theory of how an intruder may have entered the home, but was it the only way in? Maybe a door was left unlocked, maybe a larger window was left unlocked, maybe someone had a copy of a key. Maybe the person who went through the open window was skinnier than the lady on the tv show, and maybe he had done it before and was just less awkward and clumsy at it than a first timer. 

As another poster said, there's just nothing about this case that is cut and dried.

I read somewhere (and I wish I could remember where) that sometime prior to the murder, a Ramsey housekeeper had said that someone had been sleeping in JB's bedroom while the family was away -- a bag with men's clothes left behind as well as some newish boots (not Hi_tek). Did anyone else happen to come across that?

[Joe Jitsu913]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

 

I read somewhere (and I wish I could remember where) that sometime prior to the murder, a Ramsey housekeeper had said that someone had been sleeping in JB's bedroom while the family was away -- a bag with men's clothes left behind as well as some newish boots (not Hi_tek). Did anyone else happen to come across that?

This happened in their Charlevoix Michigan vacation home not their Colorado home. 

[Jel]

Thank you for the clarification, Joe Jitsu913.

[starri]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

It's just weird, to me, that it's the kid doctor. She didn't have her OWN doctor? Probably, but appeared closer to the pediatrician. Why? Was he their friend prior, and that's WHY they chose him as their children's doctor? I just remember the 17 visits (or whatever it was) in one year, and the 3 calls made to his office within one hour, just days before the murder. It strikes me as an odd relationship. 

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to why they invited the people.  I mean, I get the minister, but even leaving aside the fact that the cops shouldn't have let them anywhere near the house, what possible rationale could there have been for inviting the Whites and the Fernies over?  I just can't get my head around why they'd do that if it was a legitimate kidnapping.

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

To quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Whenever I've thought about the ransom note, I've always thought about Hannibal Lecter of all people:  "Like the exaggerations of a bad liar."

[AZChristian]

4 minutes ago, starri said:

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to why they invited the people.  I mean, I get the minister, but even leaving aside the fact that the cops shouldn't have let them anywhere near the house, what possible rationale could there have been for inviting the Whites and the Fernies over?  I just can't get my head around why they'd do that if it was a legitimate kidnapping.

Whenever I've thought about the ransom note, I've always thought about Hannibal Lecter of all people:  "Like the exaggerations of a bad liar."

What's really bizarre is that as soon as Patsy got off the phone with the police, she called Fleet and Priscilla White and told them to come over, because JonBenet had been kidnapped.  And she told THEM to call the FBI.  1) The police would take care of that if they determined it was a kidnapping.  2) If Patsy thought the FBI needed to be called, shouldn't SHE have called the FBI instead of starting to call out invitations to the kidnapping brunch?  And I fully agree.  The first thing the cops should have done is kick out any brunch invitees who were already there, and another cop should have been stationed out front to keep anyone (except maybe the pastor and the doctor) out of the house/crime scene.

[vibeology]

I was never as bothered by the invites. People in tragic/stressful times react very differently and Patsy does seem to be someone who likes to be surrounded by people. People who are freaking out are rarely rational so I could believe Patsy would do that if she did or didn't take part in JBR's death. If I were in their shoes and assuming they believed the situation to be a kidnapping, I could see myself calling a close friend to come and take care of my son and another to sit with me while I was freaking out. And a pastor if I was religious. And a doctor if I felt emotionally overwhelmed. None of that bothers me. The police letting everyone chill in the house, touch and move things, clean up etc bothers me but that's not on the Ramsays. 

The invites aren't the reason I think someone in the Ramsay household is guilty. It's the other things like the note, like the strange layout of the house, like the window and suitcase, like Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before, like Burke "sleeping" the whole time, like the way key things seem to be spread out throughout the house, like the timeline.

[Epeolatrix]

Quote

Wouldn't Ramsey prints on a note be pretty easy to explain away? "I picked it up to read it."  Why the need for the gloves to write it?

If you just pick it up to read it, you only leave fingertips on the edges. If you're writing, the sides of your hand and fingers will leave a much larger print (as you rest your hand on the paper against the hard surface below). Harder to explain away.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Violet Impulse
Forgot a crucial word.

[bannana]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

To quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

It would have been impossible for the parents to handle the note without leaving fingerprints.  It would have been impossible for someone to come through the basement window and leave the cobweb intact.  It would have been impossible for John to see JonBenet's body wrapped in a blanket in a room with no windows before he turned on the light.

As improbable as it is that a rich couple would attempt to cover up the death of their daughter, that must be the truth.  Whether it was an accident, an act of rage, covering up for their son's action, finishing her off with a garotte because she wasn't quite dead but they were committed to the cover-up . . . the truth is that they were BOTH involved in the cover-up.

Finishing her off with a garrotte is why I cannot believe it was the Ramseys.  I just cannot believe that they would do that to their daughter they loved, even if they thought she was dead.

But all of the theories here have been very interesting to read.  

[starri]

13 minutes ago, vibeology said:

I was never as bothered by the invites. People in tragic/stressful times react very differently and Patsy does seem to be someone who likes to be surrounded by people. People who are freaking out are rarely rational so I could believe Patsy would do that if she did or didn't take part in JBR's death.

Yeah, but if they thought it was a legitimate kidnapping for ransom, they were specifically instructed not to contact anyone and that they were being watched.

[ghoulina]

Obviously no one can say what they'd do in this horrific situation, and I'm grateful I've never experienced anything like it. But I think, if it were me, that I'd probably ask the police if it was okay to have people over. Simply because of the tone of the ransom note. I know kidnappers always say "don't call the police" and most people do anyhow. But you handle it discreetly, in case you're being watched. I don't begrudge Patsy the need for friends (no matter if she was involved or not), but I think I would consult the police after they arrived, and see what was best. Getting my daughter back would be paramount, and I wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize it. 

Of course, knowing Boulder cops, they probably would have said - "Four family friends, minister, and JB's pediatrician? Sure, no problem! Invite your hairdresser and accountant too!" And it was actually the victim's advocates, sent by the PD, who were cleaning the damn house! WTF?

[Jel]

I also find it odd that they'd invite a bunch of people over when the note said don't say anything. I would be scared to call the police in that case.  Is it correct to assume that (some) posters think she did that to intentionally mess with the crime scene?

But I do think Patsy's extroversion is an explanation as to why she would invite people over. People-people are energized and comforted by being around others, so that I can wrap my head around.

About her wearing the same clothes: my take there is that Pasty was a secret slob. The main floor was ok (guests!) but the rest of the house was a mess. I also noticed from crime scene photos that she had served bagels on Christmas morning and they were still on the table that night, meaning she left food sitting out , uncovered all day. With no one expected over that day, she's free to be her not great at housekeeping self -- no appearances to keep up.

I remember seeing Nancy Grace talking about a crime, saying how she knew something was up because the curtains were closed and everyone knows that every woman has the same routine: get up, get dressed, open the curtains. No, Nancy, not every woman does that. And no, BPD, not every woman puts on fresh clothes everyday, especially on a morning when you are hurrying to get going to your private plane, to go to your second home -- really no need to be particularly presentable.

 I felt there were a lot of assumptions by the BPD/FBI/experts about what was normal behavior, with little or no room for anyone or anything that might not fall right inside the  hump of the bell. 

[Mabinogia]

If Patsy were alone I'd get calling someone over for comfort but John was there. Why didn't he tell her she was being insane and could get their daughter killed by telling their friends when the letter said TELL NO ONE!!!!! Did neither of these people care if they got their child killed? IDK it just feels like, even if it really was a kidnapping, Patsy was putting her own needs ahead of any concern for her daughter. However, if they knew full well that JB was dead already, then there was no harm in calling everyone over for a party.

14 minutes ago, Jel said:

every woman has the same routine: get up, get dressed, open the curtains.

Really? We do? I never open my curtains in the morning. I don't like having the curtains open when I'm not going to be home. If I'm going on a trip I certainly wouldn't bother opening the curtains.

[Jel]

Nancy Grace begs to differ, Mabinogia. And she seemed as certain about that "fact" as she was  about any given person's guilt or innocence.  

(But apologies for the extreme side bar there!)

[ghoulina]

Oh my gosh, the curtain thing is stupid. 

 

But I do think it's likely Patsy never took those clothes off, never went to bed that night. Yes, she was a secret slob, but she was going to be leaving the house that day. I just don't see her putting on the same outfit from the night before. In fact, if they were going on a private plane, I'd think she'd wear something more comfortable than what she wore the Whites party. But the main thing is - her full face of makeup and hair being done. According to Patsy, she woke while John was in the shower. She went downstairs to start coffee and a small breakfast. She then saw the note. She doesn't say anything about getting "ready" for the day, and John was in the bathroom, so my guess is that she would wait until he was done. When did she do her hair and makeup? I guess she could have slept in her makeup? But I just really don't think she ever went to bed. 

[jaync]

Quote

But JB apparently had a drawer full of nothing but size 4 underwear, and the Bloomies were what? 10-12? It's a HUGE difference. 

Yeah, that is a huge difference (I didn't realize they were that much larger). Anybody know how much bigger/older the niece was?

Quote

I just remember the 17 visits (or whatever it was) in one year, and the 3 calls made to his office within one hour, just days before the murder. It strikes me as an odd relationship. 

Wasn't it something like 27 to 30 visits? Maybe the excessive trips to the pediatrician were more for Patsy's benefit, so she could score 'scripts for Valium.

There was an interview with the doctor on one of the specials that has aired (there have been so many!) where he said that he assumes every child that comes through his practice has probably been sexually abused. I thought that was a WAY weird.

Quote

Also, try as I might, I cannot come up with any scenario where it's more likely someone other than Patsy wrote that note.

Me, neither. Mostly because - from what I understand - the overwhelming majority of child kidnappers just want the child, not ransom. A child predator is automatically on the bottom of the prison chain when they get caught, so the last thing they want to do is hang around the crime scene longer than necessary and risk leaving all kinds of evidence behind.

The Dr. Phil episodes with Burke were replayed late last night, and I could only take a couple of minutes of Burke's creepy as hell resting smile face.

Edited October 3, 2016 by jaync

[Chai]

I haven't seen in anything I've read that describes the kind of sibling relationship between Burke and Jonbenet. Does anyone know? I know I can assume all siblings quarrel at one time or another, but were they at each other's throats morning and night?

Burke has been noted as being "off" by people that have come across him. His strange issues with feces....putting it in her bed, on her presents, and smearing it throughout the house. These are not normal signs! I'd have a hard time leaving her alone with him.

[ghoulina]

37 minutes ago, jaync said:

Yeah, that is a huge difference (I didn't realize they were that much larger). Anybody know how much bigger/older the niece was?

Patsy was cagey with her answers when asked about the niece. I believe Jenny was 11-12 that Christmas. When questioned, though, she waffled on how big the girl actually was. She wouldn't say she was "large". I don't know if anyone's actually seen her, but the entire interview surrounding the panties seemed aimed at making them seem very close in size to what JB normally wore. 

And, actually I was wrong. The Bloomies weren't 10-12, they were 12-14! I've noticed that sizes run a bit small. So I can see an 11-12 year old needing 12-14. My 5 year old wears undies 6-8. But 12-14 would be insanely huge on her. She's only one year younger than JB, but my daughter is a bit thicker. She's not fat by any means, but JB was very petite and thin. Patsy tried to say that JB normally wears 8-6, which I think was an attempt to narrow the discrepancy, but nothing but 4-6 were found in her drawer. 

49 minutes ago, jaync said:

Wasn't it something like 27 to 30 visits? Maybe the excessive trips to the pediatrician were more for Patsy's benefit, so she could score 'scripts for Valium.

I thought it was 17 in the past year, and something like 33 in three years? But I could be wrong. I've read so much about this case, that the facts sometimes get muddled together. 

 

3 minutes ago, Chai said:

 

I haven't seen in anything I've read that describes the kind of sibling relationship between Burke and Jonbenet. Does anyone know? I know I can assume all siblings quarrel at one time or another, but were they at each other's throats morning and night?

 

I don't think much has been said in detail. But there was the one incident where he hit her with the golf club. So many people close to them were silent after this happened, so I think that makes it hard to get a good picture of their home life.