Jess Mariano: He Doesn't Like Anybody Else

[Lady Calypso]

So, there's been a lot of discussions about Jess as a character recently and I notice that he doesn't have his own thread. So, I figure now would be an excellent opportunity to start a thread on Jess, the "little punk" with the rough childhood. He's the character that people either love or they absolutely hate, and both are very valid opinions. There's a lot of layers to Jess, more than most characters on the show, but he does seem to go through a lot of changes and by the end of his run (until the revival, at least), he seems to be on a much better path and working toward a healthier future. 

This is the thread to point out his many, many flaws that make people hate him, but as well as talk about his growth as a character and how his few relationships have shaped him to be better. He's certainly no better than most of the guys on the show, but he's also no worse than a lot of them either. The one thing that seems to stand out is how they give him more than just storylines with his love interest. He's one of the few 'supporting' characters that gets a story of his own, which I think helps to add to him being as much of a character as Luke or Paris. 

Ultimately, I think that Jess' actions as a teenager were pretty awful. He was definitely a pretty bad boyfriend to Rory for a good chunk of the time that they were dating, and he was not kind to most of the residents in Stars Hollow. He seemed to not be part of the Stars Hollow world nor would he be a part of the "Hartford" world. He belonged in his own place away from Connecticut, and it's good that he got there by the end of his run. He definitely needed to atone more for his actions and behaviours toward many, such as Rory. The one hope I have for the revival is that he will full out apologize to Rory for being a bad boyfriend. Hopefully he's learned that the words "I'm sorry" are not bad to say out loud. 

But his underrated childhood definitely contributed to a lot of his actions as a teenager before he grew up. His (arguably slightly retconned) mother has been said to be neglectful and a flakey parent for all of Jess' childhood. Her drug use, her consistently awful relationships (with her being on her fourth marriage with TJ), and her inability to raise her son or to even send him to Luke sooner all add to the anger and bitterness that we saw in Jess early on. He never got the love and patience that he deserved, except when it finally came to Luke and Rory. He could have been much worse off if Jess didn't have Luke in his life. 

The one issue I do have with the Luke/Jess situation in season 4 when Liz comes on the scene is Luke's dismissive attitude about Jess' concerns about Liz. It doesn't help that we don't know much about Liz's past relationships or past behaviour before they softened up her character once they decided to bring her on the show, but it definitely needs to be reminded that Jess was in the right to not want to walk his mother down the aisle or be part of her new life with her new husband. Luke never had to live with Liz after she moved away and had Jess. So the judgment there to make us feel bad for Liz and make Jess accept Liz as a changing woman definitely put me off of the relationship slightly, but not overly so. 

So I guess I'll stop my ramblings here and ask your opinions of Jess and his many difficult relationships throughout the series. Why do you guys like him? Why do you hate him? Is he any worse than Dean and Logan for Rory? Will he ever put aside his own pride and bitterness to try to fit into either of Rory's worlds, or will he always be an outsider? 

Just a few questions to consider. 

[junienmomo]

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

The one issue I do have with the Luke/Jess situation in season 4 when Liz comes on the scene is Luke's dismissive attitude about Jess' concerns about Liz. It doesn't help that we don't know much about Liz's past relationships or past behaviour before they softened up her character once they decided to bring her on the show, but it definitely needs to be reminded that Jess was in the right to not want to walk his mother down the aisle or be part of her new life with her new husband.

 I don't recall Luke being dismissive about the past. In fact, Luke lived the first rebellious period with Liz.  He saw something of her descent into the drug-addicted life as well as many bail-out periods.  Luke's  strong belief that family should be there for each other is really all he said to Jess.  Luke was surprised when Jess showed up and just made it clear that he was there for Luke, not for Liz. Jess also did a good job of not maintaining a relationship with Liz after the wedding. I land more on Jess' side of how to treat Liz, and could never tolerate the crap clean Liz pulled on Luke. 

[blueray]

I like Jess. He has always been my favorite of her "boyfriends". Though he is the only one that stands as his own character and has a reason to be there besides Rory. I liked his relationship with Luke. And loved how he changed his life around and found happiness toward the end of the show. I hope they do not mess with this at all. Keep Jess on the correct path. I also love that it was Jess that finally got through to Rory in season 6. While I like him as a character, now that that I'm older I feel like it would be best for Rory and Jess to just be friends.

[chessiegal]

Maybe Jess has more depth because ASP had in the back of her mind to give him his own show? Just a thought. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

 I don't recall Luke being dismissive about the past. In fact, Luke lived the first rebellious period with Liz.  He saw something of her descent into the drug-addicted life as well as many bail-out periods.  Luke's  strong belief that family should be there for each other is really all he said to Jess.  Luke was surprised when Jess showed up and just made it clear that he was there for Luke, not for Liz. Jess also did a good job of not maintaining a relationship with Liz after the wedding. I land more on Jess' side of how to treat Liz, and could never tolerate the crap clean Liz pulled on Luke. 

Good point! I guess he wasn't dismissive about the past and about Liz's rebellion, but I think he gave her more credit than what was needed, while Jess was more realistic about Liz's new husband. The one thing about Luke is that he's all in for family, through better or through worse. I'm actually very impressed in that regard, which is why I have no doubt if Luke/Lorelai get married in the revival, or if they are or whatever, he'd show that same undying loyalty toward her. He kind of already does in a way, but the way he defends family is certainly more than Lorelai does with her family (Rory aside). 

I think Luke was a little too optimistic at times when it came to Liz. He kept trying to fix her in hopes that she'd be a better person but he never called her out on screen for the last seventeen years of neglect and selfishness. Of course, the casting of Liz made the Palladinos soften her character up so that she wouldn't be entirely hated, but that also made it seem like Jess was in the wrong for not wanting to go to the wedding, or not wanting to walk his mother down the aisle. We also don't know if TJ was much different than the other guys in Liz's life. Clearly, he was, as demonstrated in the later seasons, but I do think that Luke was too hard on Jess' choice to not attend the wedding. But he did admit that he did it for Luke, which is entirely reasonable as well, and I'm glad that was the reason. And it seemed to work out, because the two seemed to be on better speaking terms after that. Hell, they even stayed in contact before TJ was even in the picture so Jess still cared about his own mother enough to give her his phone numbers. 

[junienmomo]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Luke was a little too optimistic at times when it came to Liz. He kept trying to fix her in hopes that she'd be a better person but he never called her out on screen for the last seventeen years of neglect and selfishness.

That would have been a great scene. For some reason, Luke only yelled at Liz on the phone. She totally deserved to be called out for her major issues. Instead, they made Liz out to be a dimwit good fairy with Lorelai-like selfishness, and she was given the role of being Luke's Sookie. Blech. You could find better friends in a cereal box.

I would have loved to see Lorelai call Liz out on behalf of Luke using the same energy she used when Jess arrived. 

[TimetravellingBW]

I'm a Jess fan, but I was Season 6 Jess conversion; on my original watch I disliked in Season 2 and 3 because he was such a jerk, but he totally won me over when he returned as mature!Jess. Then when I rewatched the series, I found I was a lot more sympathetic and willing to consider his point of view and why he was so unpleasant. (One thing I do love about the Gilmore Girls is most of the time - before the terribly written Season 6 and 7 - you can understand and relate to every character's perspective and why they act in a certain way, the conflicts and good vs. bad guys aren't clear cut). 

I agree he feels more complex than Dean and Logan because he gets his own storylines outside of the Gilmore Girls. (Dean was a cardboard cut-out character for most of the show, while Logan did have more depth but didn't get a chance to showcase it because he only really shared scenes with Rory). Introducing the Luke/Jess relationship imo, was one of the best things the writers did: It gave both characters a chance to talk about their feelings and perspectives outside of scenes with Lorelai and Rory, gave Luke some layers and was generally a sweet but rough-edged relationship that developed slowly and concluded in a very satisfying way. I liked how S2 and 3 paralleled the easier, in-sync dynamic between Lorelai and Rory, with the more difficult, dysfunctional dynamic between Luke and Jess. Both were odd friend-parent/child hybrid relationships.

15 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But his underrated childhood definitely contributed to a lot of his actions as a teenager before he grew up. His (arguably slightly retconned) mother has been said to be neglectful and a flakey parent for all of Jess' childhood. Her drug use, her consistently awful relationships (with her being on her fourth marriage with TJ), and her inability to raise her son or to even send him to Luke sooner all add to the anger and bitterness that we saw in Jess early on. He never got the love and patience that he deserved, except when it finally came to Luke and Rory. He could have been much worse off if Jess didn't have Luke in his life. 

The one issue I do have with the Luke/Jess situation in season 4 when Liz comes on the scene is Luke's dismissive attitude about Jess' concerns about Liz. It doesn't help that we don't know much about Liz's past relationships or past behaviour before they softened up her character once they decided to bring her on the show, but it definitely needs to be reminded that Jess was in the right to not want to walk his mother down the aisle or be part of her new life with her new husband. Luke never had to live with Liz after she moved away and had Jess. So the judgment there to make us feel bad for Liz and make Jess accept Liz as a changing woman definitely put me off of the relationship slightly, but not overly so. 

I loathed how the show implicitly judged Jess for not supporting Liz marrying TJ and how she'd "reformed". I agree that Luke's came down hard on Jess because of his own blindspot regarding family and supporting them no matter what. (Which is understandable given Liz and Jess were his only family left). Though it is ironic that Luke first gets irritated with Jess for not trying to get rid of TJ, and then for not supporting the marriage. 

So I get Luke's perspective, but the overall set up reeks of victim-blaming the neglected/abused kid for distancing himself from his "whack job" of a mother. They never should have introduced Liz as a lovable ditz after establishing she was responsible for Jess's horribly shitty childhood and the emotional baggage he carried for most of the show. (Difficulty communicating, struggles to form close, trusting relationships, incredibly low self-worth, very little hope for his future etc.) I'd actually preferred for her to be a much more minor character, who the show actually portrayed according to Jess's background and her description in Season 2 and 3. Someone more unapolotegically villian-y like Straub or Mitchum rather than comic relief. Because making comic relief out of a neglectful, druggie, alcoholic mother is urghhh.  

6 hours ago, junienmomo said:

That would have been a great scene. For some reason, Luke only yelled at Liz on the phone. She totally deserved to be called out for her major issues. Instead, they made Liz out to be a dimwit good fairy with Lorelai-like selfishness, and she was given the role of being Luke's Sookie. Blech. You could find better friends in a cereal box.

What would I have given to see that.  Because imo Luke never experienced the effects of Liz's poor life choices and selfishness in the same way Jess did. Yes, Luke witnessed her initial teenage rebellion/pregnancy/drug habit descent and supported her from a distance, but he was never dependent on her the way Jess was, he was the older brother who could separate himself whereas Jess was a kid with no one else to turn to. Luke might've been called on to deal with the aftermath of Liz's break ups, but he was never physically living with Liz when she was on drugs/booze or bringing home boyfriends/husbands the way Jess was. (Boyfriends/husbands who were canonically financially abusive, probably emotionally abusive and possibly physically abusive too).  Jess's comment that he has 19 years of proof to back up the fact Liz doesn't care about his opinion on her boyfriends is hugely telling and kind of heartbreaking.

So it would have been wonderful if Luke was more perceptive about Jess's cynicism and utter lack of hope regarding Liz, he connected the dots of exactly how crappy his childhood was and then just ripped into Liz and the show actually made her take responsibility for her crap. Hell, it could even have happened after Jess got his life together and was able to communicate to Luke how bad Liz was, and Luke acknowledged Jess's development/strength in that context.  

(Also, I can't imagine how Jess must have felt when Liz finally got her act together after kicking him out. So having a kid for 17 years wasn't enough to get her to reform herself for, but TJ the moron was?)

But like @junienmomo said, at least Jess made it clear he came for Luke not Liz, and there's no indication he was close to Liz. I'm glad he got the hell out of there, and found his own happiness in Philly with new friends and a new environment rather than through Liz.

[Melancholy]

8 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I loathed how the show implicitly judged Jess for not supporting Liz marrying TJ and how she'd "reformed". I agree that Luke's came down hard on Jess because of his own blindspot regarding family and supporting them no matter what. (Which is understandable given Liz and Jess were his only family left). Though it is ironic that Luke first gets irritated with Jess for not trying to get rid of TJ, and then for not supporting the marriage. 

So I get Luke's perspective, but the overall set up reeks of victim-blaming the neglected/abused kid for distancing himself from his "whack job" of a mother. They never should have introduced Liz as a lovable ditz after establishing she was responsible for Jess's horribly shitty childhood and the emotional baggage he carried for most of the show. (Difficulty communicating, struggles to form close, trusting relationships, incredibly low self-worth, very little hope for his future etc.) I'd actually preferred for her to be a much more minor character, who the show actually portrayed according to Jess's background and her description in Season 2 and 3. Someone more unapolotegically villian-y like Straub or Mitchum rather than comic relief. Because making comic relief out of a neglectful, druggie, alcoholic mother is urghhh.  

I think Luke was also in a bad spot because Liz *was* far better than she'd been before in S4 and Luke wanted to encourage this more responsible, calmer life that she was embarking on by giving her these rewards of support and signs that she'll have family behind her when she makes good choices so there's no need to retreat to comfort of booze or empty sex. That's part of why Luke was mad that Jess didn't want to chase off TJ but then mad that Jess didn't want to support the marriage. Luke had an attitude that TJ was one of Liz's malicious, criminal or bordering on criminal deadbeats but instead, found that while TJ was a ridiculous buffoon, he wasn't a *bad* person and he'd be very nice to Liz. I kind of get the pragmatic aspect. I hate Liz- but I do think that people like her have a higher chance of staying clean and being responsible if they know that their family is going to be there for them when they make the better choices. Luke delivered his only somewhat intense lecture at Liz for being a bad parent when she just came into town, even though it was derailed by Luke's own pain and guilt at not helping Jess. 

LUKE: What come on, Liz? I mean, you're selling earrings in a booth and you're hooked up with another winner.
LIZ: You don't even know him.
LUKE: What about your son, huh? What about Jess, you talk to him lately? You notice he's not even here?
LIZ: Yeah, he sent me a letter. He's with his father.
LUKE: That's it? That's the extent of the contact?
LIZ: He's nineteen, you can't tell him anything.
LUKE: Well, you definitely can't if you don't try.
LIZ: I tried.
LUKE: No, I tried, you gave up.
LIZ: I thought you'd be better for him that I was.
LUKE: Oh yeah, I was great for him. I gave him a place to crash while he lied to me about everything, about going to school, about Wal-Mart - you know I stole his car?
LIZ: You what?
LUKE: In the middle of the night. I break into his car. I'm stealing it and hiding it in Dad's old garage.
LIZ: [chuckling] Why?
LUKE: Why? Because I'm crazy. Because I think now he'll have to go to school, now he'll have to graduate, now - [sigh] well, we saw how that all turned out, he went to live with the bum who abandoned him - that's how great a job I did. [he sighs deeply and takes a gulp of his orange juice]
 

However, after Liz cleared even a very low bar of signs of stability, Luke fell into Encouragement Mode more than Lecture Mode. I really, really get it. But yeah, Jess missed a chance to clear his own air and really let Liz know that there should be consequences to her lifetime of horrible selfishness because he got his marching orders that he had to support Liz and play thrilled that Liz cleaned herself up for TJ instead of her own son. That said, I do think there's a silver lining to most things. One of silver lining is that Jess can't ever regret that he wasn't there for his mother at such a pivotal moment. A more mature Jess really could have regretted it because one of the things that was keeping him away from the wedding was his own dirty, dark misspent life and fracked up priorities. Jess didn't choose that so a more mature Jess couldn't feel guilty. Jess got cover to have a real reunion with Luke- which it's clear that he needed because he had positive stuff on his mind to tell Luke but I don't think that Jess was in a space to just come to SH and say it without an event. And Luke was trying to the right thing, albeit imperfect. The fact that Luke modeled unconditional love and actually good traits was helpful to Jess since it seems like Jess only got these burnout awful boyfriends of Liz as any kind of paternal figure and male role model until Luke.  

Edited September 12, 2016 by Melancholy

[Lady Calypso]

17 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I hate Liz- but I do think that people like her have a higher chance of staying clean and being responsible if they know that their family is going to be there for them when they make the better choices. Luke delivered his only somewhat intense lecture at Liz for being a bad parent when she just came into town, even though it was derailed by Luke's own pain and guilt at not helping Jess. 

I agree. I don't think I'll ever truly like Liz because I will always be reminded of her past history. However, I think that's why Luke supported her for so long. I think he was afraid that if he cut his sister off, she would relapse with her bad choices. He saw something different with Liz this time around and he jumped on the chance at that being a genuine change. I don't know how often Luke got to see Liz after she moved away from Stars Hollow, but it seems like it was frequent enough to know about the issues that carried from her teenage years into her adult life. So a lecture to her would have been warranted, especially with Jess in the picture. But it's possible that Luke had given Liz plenty of lectures before and none of them took, so he found a different way to deal with his sister. 

Also, what's interesting about that particular conversation is that we know Liz and Jess were in more contact. Liz actually had one of Jess' many phone numbers (as established later on that he changed his numbers frequently). So Liz was not telling Luke the whole truth that her relationship with her son went beyond a letter, although whether she knew about Jess not living with his father at that point is unclear. But I could see that as a reason why Jess also chose to go to his mother's wedding. He didn't cut her off completely, so I think he not only went for Luke, but he knew that he would regret it later on. He even said that he didn't hate his mother, but he needed that push to get him there. Liz gave up on him a lot; she didn't push him to go to the wedding either. Maybe if she had, he would have come. But it ended up being a great thing when Luke went to New York to get him to go. 

I actually gave the Danes family history some thought, and I wonder if they were subtly trying to parallel Lorelai/Rory and Liz/Jess in some way. Now, it might be looking into things, but both Liz and Lorelai were teen moms. They both seemed to have pretty crappy childhoods, but Lorelai seemed to go on the parenthood path quickly while Liz drifted away and turned to bad choices. Maybe they were trying to show Jess as an Alternative Rory, if Lorelai hadn't been the mother that she was, and if she had dealt with things differently. Seeing as Jess shares many of Rory's traits (bookworm, extremely introverted, intelligent), he could have been like Rory if he had a more stable environment throughout his life. I don't know if that's where the showrunners were kind of heading when they created Jess, but I could see that as a thought they had. 

[Melancholy]

18 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I actually gave the Danes family history some thought, and I wonder if they were subtly trying to parallel Lorelai/Rory and Liz/Jess in some way. Now, it might be looking into things, but both Liz and Lorelai were teen moms. They both seemed to have pretty crappy childhoods, but Lorelai seemed to go on the parenthood path quickly while Liz drifted away and turned to bad choices. Maybe they were trying to show Jess as an Alternative Rory, if Lorelai hadn't been the mother that she was, and if she had dealt with things differently. Seeing as Jess shares many of Rory's traits (bookworm, extremely introverted, intelligent), he could have been like Rory if he had a more stable environment throughout his life. I don't know if that's where the showrunners were kind of heading when they created Jess, but I could see that as a thought they had. 

I've had that thought. First, in the Gilmore world of mainly only children, it's interesting that Luke and Liz were both damaged by losing their mother when they were young and being raised by a, however, admirable dad in a pretty sad, mourning household. It's just Luke dealt it by putting and responsibility family first and Liz...didn't. However beyond that, I do agree that Jess is a mirror of Rory. I get the vibe that Rory's aware of that and she's unconsciously or maybe even consciously thought that she could be Jess in different circumstances. I feel like there's an empathy from Rory to Jess that's very different from romance. Like in the S3 finale when Rory is trying to express- "So, that's it, I guess. Um, I hope you're good. I want you to be good, and, um, okay, so, goodbye. That word sounds really lame and stupid right now, but there it is." Or how Rory felt so passionate about the town not blaming Jess entirely for the car accident when she was also joy-riding. 

Maybe this should go in the Lorelai-criticism thread. However, I'm not so bothered by Luke giving Liz so many chances. That's what family does and Luke lives that principle with his whole family. However, Lorelai really loses A LOT righteous-credibility in her Jess-hate or her opposition to bad parenting by instantly embracing Liz as a pal. If Lorelai had any legitimate objection to Jess being set loose on the world and her daughter as a toxic guy or if Lorelai has any problem with actually Social-Services level horrible parenting (as opposed to being snooty helicopter parents), she would have given Liz a piece of mind. Or at least, been standoffish. I think Lorelai was more standoffish with Mrs. Kim than Liz. Lorelai can have a teenage mentality that restrictive parenting is worse than neglectful parenting- except she wises up when it comes to Rory. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Melancholy

[Lady Calypso]

38 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Maybe this should go in the Lorelai-criticism thread. However, I'm not so bothered by Luke giving Liz so many chances. That's what family does and Luke lives that principle with his whole family. However, Lorelai really loses A LOT righteous-credibility in her Jess-hate or her opposition to bad parenting by instantly embracing Liz as a pal. If Lorelai had any legitimate objection to Jess being set loose on the world and her daughter as a toxic guy or if Lorelai has any problem with actually Social-Services level horrible parenting (as opposed to being snooty helicopter parents), she would have given Liz a piece of mind. Or at least, been standoffish. I think Lorelai was more standoffish with Mrs. Kim than Liz. Lorelai can have a teenage mentality that restrictive parenting is worse than neglectful parenting- except she wises up when it comes to Rory. 

I can agree with this. Lorelai seemed to be very welcoming toward Liz, even while knowing at least a little about her being a neglectful parent. But, as I've pointed out before, Lorelai was always more forgiving toward Liz and excused her behaviour, while blaming Jess for just being some rebellious kid:

Quote

LORELAI: Ugh, Jess, let me give you a little advice. The whole 'my parents don't get me' thing, I've been there.
JESS: You have, huh?
LORELAI: Yes, I have. I've also done the 'chip on my shoulder' bit. Ooh, and the surly, sarcastic, 'the world can bite my ass' bit, and let me tell you, I mastered them all, in heels, yet. And everything you're feeling might be totally justified, maybe you are getting screwed. But Luke is a great guy. 

So, looking at this tiny piece of dialogue from her condescending speech, she first brushes off Jess' issues as just a rebellious stage. She's comparing her and Jess' very different situations. Lorelai has no clue about Jess' past. She only knows what Luke just told her a couple of days prior. She didn't even know Luke had a nephew, how old he was or even his name. She had no idea about his sister, other than he had one. Luke, in an earlier scene, blames Liz for being a neglectful parent, leaving Stars Hollow at eighteen and never looking back even through their father's death and Luke's struggles, and being selfish (probably one of the last times that Luke acknowledges Liz as a shitty parent). She knows Jess has gotten into some trouble and assumes that he's some serial killer (she might have been joking about her Shawshank Redemption quip when she first heard about Jess, but I'll bet there was some serious thought for a second). But her assumption is that it's all Jess' fault, that his mother was just a little neglectful or something. I don't know what was really going on in her head, but she clearly didn't listen to Luke when he was telling her about his sister. 

Maybe, part of her was connecting her own past with Jess' and it was her way of acknowledging that she had equal blame for her own rebellion. But she didn't even give Jess a chance. Thus, her "my parents don't get me" made it seem like Jess was just some spoiled kid. And then the second bolded part. Look at the words "might" and "maybe". That basically says aloud, to me at least, that she doesn't even believe that Jess' childhood up until now was screwed up. A kid who's had a neglectful mother with serious issues, who has probably endured more in his life than Lorelai, a kid who's being shipped off months before he became an adult, and it might not even be Liz's fault? What the hell, Lorelai? Judgy McJudgerson here who thinks her life is apparently the most screwed up ever and she can't even see that there are other factors at play. There's a difference between being worried and wanting to look out for Luke's best interests, and being judgmental and condescending. 

Apparently, she couldn't have said to Jess something along the lines of: "I understand that your childhood was screwed up. I don't know what kind of life you've led, but I acknowledge that you're getting screwed. But Luke is a great guy..." And cue the rest of it. But no; she tries to relate her life to Jess' and she assumes that she knows everything, when she doesn't have a clue. 

And of course, they end on this note:

Quote

JESS: You know, you don't know anything about me, or my life, or my mom, or Luke, so why don't you Doctor Laura someone else.
LORELAI: I'm going inside, stay out of my fridge.

She pouts and walks away when Jess rightfully calls her out on her judgment on his life. 

Clearly I have some issues with the Lorelai/Jess dynamic. It's interesting, at the very least, but frustrating at the same time. Although imagine if Rory hadn't come home in Lost and Found, freaking out about the bracelet. Lorelai/Jess might have actually been on their way to a somewhat functional relationship. Well, until he inevitably screwed it up again in Lorelai's eyes. 

[Melancholy]

34 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, looking at this tiny piece of dialogue from her condescending speech, she first brushes off Jess' issues as just a rebellious stage. She's comparing her and Jess' very different situations. Lorelai has no clue about Jess' past. She only knows what Luke just told her a couple of days prior. She didn't even know Luke had a nephew, how old he was or even his name. She had no idea about his sister, other than he had one. Luke, in an earlier scene, blames Liz for being a neglectful parent, leaving Stars Hollow at eighteen and never looking back even through their father's death and Luke's struggles, and being selfish (probably one of the last times that Luke acknowledges Liz as a shitty parent). She knows Jess has gotten into some trouble and assumes that he's some serial killer (she might have been joking about her Shawshank Redemption quip when she first heard about Jess, but I'll bet there was some serious thought for a second). But her assumption is that it's all Jess' fault, that his mother was just a little neglectful or something. I don't know what was really going on in her head, but she clearly didn't listen to Luke when he was telling her about his sister.

I read back over the scene where Luke describes Liz to Lorelai in Nick & Nora. Luke really insults Jess's parents.

Luke: Oh well, the great prize that my sister picked up at a Der Wienerschnitzel left her about two years ago, whereabouts unknown.

LORELAI: So she's just sending him here, just like that?
LUKE: Oh no, I'm sure she put at least five or six minutes of thought into it.

LUKE: All he needs is a change of pace, a new crowd, and to get away from the nutjob that, unfortunately, is my sister.
 

LUKE: Look, his problem is obvious, it's his mother. You never could count on Liz for anything. Our mom died when we were kids, right? It was just my dad, me and Liz. And my dad worked all the time and I worked in the store with my dad, and Liz was off doing God knows what.
LORELAI: Well, I bet losing her mom so early was kind of hard on her.
LUKE: It was hard on all of us, but we did our part. And then the minute she graduates high school, she is outta here. Didn't matter that my dad was sick, didn't matter that the store was failing, she just took off. Married the hot dog king, had a kid, he left, now here we are. 

LUKE: Look, all he needs is to be around someone who's not a selfish basketcase, who will give him a little space, who will treat him like a man.

Absolutely, Luke has a temper and he can say OTT insults. However, these remarks are incredibly harsh on a woman who's just a harmless flake and generally was an OK but flawed mom. Lorelai made a clear choice not to take what Luke said seriously from the beginning. I think Lorelai just refuses to Get It. Like in the sleighs in The Bracebridge Dinner, Luke and Rory sure understand that Liz refusing to even see Jess for the holidays or even *call* him is a new cruel low. I mean, one thing to be unable to deal with Jess because he's getting into trouble and send him to Luke. That's a weak move for a mother. However, to refuse to take a natural opportunity of Christmas to see your child after not seeing him for months is disgusting. That fact that Liz couldn't be bothered to call is even worse. Luke and Rory demonstrated empathy and compassion for Jess. Lorelai is more concerned with shining her own trophy erected to herself as the Wisest Parent to call Luke out on inexpertly failing to protect Jess. She puts out "makes me sick" righteous noises but there's no sign that she actually gets the seriousness and the pain that Jess is in because of it. 

In the Jess/Rory parallel, it's interesting that this episode features Luke lying to Jess to save him the pain that his mother doesn't even want to speak to him during the holidays and Lorelai lying to Rory for awhile until she course-corrected with the truth that Christopher wanted her for Christmas because Lorelai wanted Rory to herself during the holidays. 

[hippielamb]

20 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I can agree with this. Lorelai seemed to be very welcoming toward Liz, even while knowing at least a little about her being a neglectful parent. But, as I've pointed out before, Lorelai was always more forgiving toward Liz and excused her behaviour, while blaming Jess for just being some rebellious kid

I have always thought Liz was a counterpart to Lorelai. Both young moms with the kid's father largely out of the picture. I like them both, probably because I was a young mom too and it's largely why I can relate to Lorelai. I could have easily been a Liz, as could Lorelai without the support system of Stars Hollow. Most 18 year single parents don't make the best choices. It makes sense to me that she and Liz would get on well together. 

I think the major difference (other than they have very different views on bringing men home that their kid will see) is that Liz had less of a support system than Lorelai. She left Stars Hollow and all its well intentioned, caring, busybodies while Lorelai chose it as her home. All Liz had was Luke when things got rough, and while that's commendable, he's hardly the most nurturing person especially when Liz screws up.

I like what little we see of the Jess and Liz relationship. Jess has gone from saying she was a whackjob to having a friendly, not close relationship with her. He doesn't interfere in her choices and accepts Liz as she is. I think his approach is the healthiest. He also didn't berate his father and accepted him flaws and all. Lorelai cuts her parents out of her life for 15 years and remains in the teenage phase with them. Jess' attitude about his less than perfect parents is more mature and forgiving. It's the one thing about him that I like. It usually takes adults who had unhappy childhoods years of soul searching and/or therapy to reach that point of acceptance with their parents.

[TimetravellingBW]

On 9/13/2016 at 9:42 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I actually gave the Danes family history some thought, and I wonder if they were subtly trying to parallel Lorelai/Rory and Liz/Jess in some way. Now, it might be looking into things, but both Liz and Lorelai were teen moms. They both seemed to have pretty crappy childhoods, but Lorelai seemed to go on the parenthood path quickly while Liz drifted away and turned to bad choices. Maybe they were trying to show Jess as an Alternative Rory, if Lorelai hadn't been the mother that she was, and if she had dealt with things differently. Seeing as Jess shares many of Rory's traits (bookworm, extremely introverted, intelligent), he could have been like Rory if he had a more stable environment throughout his life. I don't know if that's where the showrunners were kind of heading when they created Jess, but I could see that as a thought they had. 

It did feel like they wrote Jess and Rory as the two sides of the same coin. Especially with the hourglass plot of Jess being a mess in Season 3/4 while Rory was heading to a bright future at Yale, then flipping it in Season 6 with Jess happy and successful - on his terms - while Rory was wasting her life. Both of them also ended up getting support from the family their mothers walked away from (Luke and Emily/Richard). They felt similar below the surface, and things could have been very different if Lorelai had treated Rory the way Liz treated Jess. (Or idk, if Rory ended up being raised by a neglectful Chris?) Or if Luke parented Jess from the start, so he grew up with a stable parental figure? Given how quickly Jess got himself together after only a few years of having people who actually believed in him, he could have been so much healthier and hopeful growing up. And if Rory became so bitter and pessimistic after a few bits of criticism, she could have turned out a much more cynical person. 

On 9/14/2016 at 6:53 AM, hippielamb said:

I have always thought Liz was a counterpart to Lorelai. Both young moms with the kid's father largely out of the picture. I like them both, probably because I was a young mom too and it's largely why I can relate to Lorelai. I could have easily been a Liz, as could Lorelai without the support system of Stars Hollow. Most 18 year single parents don't make the best choices. It makes sense to me that she and Liz would get on well together. 

I think the major difference (other than they have very different views on bringing men home that their kid will see) is that Liz had less of a support system than Lorelai. She left Stars Hollow and all its well intentioned, caring, busybodies while Lorelai chose it as her home. All Liz had was Luke when things got rough, and while that's commendable, he's hardly the most nurturing person especially when Liz screws up.

I think the Liz/Lorelai parallel is really interesting and definitely something the show was trying to suggest. As said before not only did both of them get pregnant young and the fathers of their children were flakes but both ran away from their family - Emily/Richard and Luke - to make it on their own. (It's interesting to see parallels between Luke view's of Liz and Emily and Richard's view of Lorelai: Luke/Emily&Richard are more traditional, are irritated with Liz/Lorelai's rebellion, quirky lifestyle, and inability to manage a relationship, and are deeply hurt by them running away and abandoning them because family is meant to be important). 

I think the biggest difference between Liz and Lorelai is when Lorelai got pregnant; Rory became the most important thing in her world. There were some issues in that I think she projected too much of her own dreams (e.g. Harvard) on Rory and idolised her as a perfect angel child. But she put Rory first and that's admirable for teenage mother to make that choice. In contrast, from everything we hear, Liz seems to have put men first,. (I'd even suggest she tried to get her self-worth out of relationships and guys). Jess's needs were clearly secondary to whatever husband/boyfriend/douche-bag she had at the time. And honestly it's depressing that in the end it was a new relationship with a "good" guy like TJ that made Liz get her act together, not her son. Also, yes Lorelai was at least lucky - and possibly smart - enough to move to a small town where people would be more likely to support her and it was safer. Liz went to New York which is not the place you'll people to take a personal interest in your struggles. 

On 9/13/2016 at 10:40 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe, part of her was connecting her own past with Jess' and it was her way of acknowledging that she had equal blame for her own rebellion. But she didn't even give Jess a chance. Thus, her "my parents don't get me" made it seem like Jess was just some spoiled kid. And then the second bolded part. Look at the words "might" and "maybe". That basically says aloud, to me at least, that she doesn't even believe that Jess' childhood up until now was screwed up. A kid who's had a neglectful mother with serious issues, who has probably endured more in his life than Lorelai, a kid who's being shipped off months before he became an adult, and it might not even be Liz's fault? What the hell, Lorelai? Judgy McJudgerson here who thinks her life is apparently the most screwed up ever and she can't even see that there are other factors at play. There's a difference between being worried and wanting to look out for Luke's best interests, and being judgmental and condescending. 

Clearly I have some issues with the Lorelai/Jess dynamic. It's interesting, at the very least, but frustrating at the same time. Although imagine if Rory hadn't come home in Lost and Found, freaking out about the bracelet. Lorelai/Jess might have actually been on their way to a somewhat functional relationship. Well, until he inevitably screwed it up again in Lorelai's eyes. 

That's why I could never buy that Lorelai truly gave Jess a chance. She seemed to in Lost and Found but it became clear she was just waiting to catch him out: The bracelet, the car crash - all situations where Jess had a fair point of view but she leapt to vilify him. And yes to everything you pulled out of her speech and reaction to Luke's description of Jess's background. She just had blinkers on regarding her own background; she heard "troubled kid" and went straight to "spoiled rich kid pushing back against overbearing parents." Zero concept of "neglected poor kid lashing out because his parents don't want him." 

On 9/13/2016 at 11:33 AM, Melancholy said:

In the Jess/Rory parallel, it's interesting that this episode features Luke lying to Jess to save him the pain that his mother doesn't even want to speak to him during the holidays and Lorelai lying to Rory for awhile until she course-corrected with the truth that Christopher wanted her for Christmas because Lorelai wanted Rory to herself during the holidays. 

I never even noticed the Lorelai/Luke parallel lies, good point. Depressing that Rory had not one but two parents who wanted to to spend Christmas with her (plus her grandparents), while Jess had none. And that context makes Lorelai look more selfish for not telling Rory, in comparison to Luke's more selfless albeit unsuccessful lie. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Lady Calypso]

So, while looking up transcripts to the episode of Jess' last appearance, I noticed something that I didn't really notice before. Jess was in town in 6x08 to distribute his book and he definitely stops off at Luke's before seeing Rory because that's how he finds out where she is. But what's interesting is that Jess doesn't give Luke a copy of his book until he's in Philadelphia 10 episodes later. He gives Rory the first copy before Luke. I just find that so interesting and so poignant that he chose Rory as the special person in his life that deserved the first copy over Luke. I'm hoping that I'm not implying that Luke is less important when it comes to Jess becoming successful in a career he was just starting out in, because Luke did a lot to help him get on track, but I just find it so interesting that it was Rory who got to read Jess' book first and Luke got a copy much later. But Jess does pay Luke back for everything that he's done for him, so clearly Jess still considered Luke a huge part in his growth. 

Also, I was thinking about Jess/Doula and how he didn't get to meet his half sister by the time the show ended. Just something about the revival:

Spoiler

Liz, TJ and presumably Doula do not appear in the revival so we'll never get a scene of Jess and Doula meeting, which kind of sucks, because I wanted to see how he feels about his sister.

But I do wonder how he does feel about his half sister. I can't imagine he hates her, but I wonder if, offscreen, he had some issues getting close to her because he sees Liz becoming a different parent than she was with him. 

[methodwriter85]

It was kind of super-weird to see Milo back in Jess mode. I'm so used to him as father figure Jack on This Is Us that it felt off seeing Luke playing fatherly to him.

I'm guessing we're supposed to see that Jess is always going to have a torch for Rory?

[Lady Calypso]

I was super impressed with how easily he slipped back into Jess mode. I've seen him on most of the shows he's been on, and he felt 100% Jess here. The voice afflictions, the little Jess quirks (the slapping Luke on the shoulder/back, the raised eyebrows), and even his physical appearance. In my opinion, only Milo, Liza, and Kelly were able to completely slip back into character from the start. Everyone else took a little bit of time, or they couldn't quite nail it. 

Watching This Is Us last night and then rewatching Jess scenes for the revival, it certainly showcases him as a great actor if he can seem completely separate from both characters.

5 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm guessing we're supposed to see that Jess is always going to have a torch for Rory?

I think so? I think ASP was trying to throw Jess/Rory fans a bone, in case a second season arises and they're able to get back Milo for a more prominent role. Personally, I'd rather Jess just moved on from Rory since she's a mess. He's gotten his life on track, he's shaped up and redeemed himself from his teen punk ways, and although he brings out the better part of Rory, she hasn't seemed interested in him in years, so I think it's best to leave that potential story alone. 

[Taryn74]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

5 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm guessing we're supposed to see that Jess is always going to have a torch for Rory?

I think so? I think ASP was trying to throw Jess/Rory fans a bone, in case a second season arises and they're able to get back Milo for a more prominent role.

Oh I've no doubt ASP was throwing the J/R fans a bone* but from a character standpoint I don't think Jess' look was so much he was (still) longing for Rory, as it was he was being a bit wistful for the girl he once knew and used to be in love with.  Rory no longer is that girl, in age or in just about any other way, and I think Jess was just feeling the same nostalgia as everyone else (maybe tinged with just a little bit of disappointment - but that could be my wishful thinking, ha!).

 

* As a long-time Jess/Rory fan, watching the revival it was painfully clear to me that ship has long since sailed and really have no desire to see them get together in any future installments.  So if ASP was hoping the J/R fans would clamor for more if she gave them a little something, I think she's going to be disappointed.

[Winter Rose]

Going into the revival, I would've been thrilled with a hopeful Rory/Jess ending. The problem for me came in its execution, it felt tacked on and worse, it was one-sided. I have no doubt Rory was hurt when Jess had up and left her without a word, and I didn't blame her for her initial resistance to him. But when the years add up since their breakup and any attempts at reconciliation always came from Jess's side - only to be met with a giant 'NO' from Rory - to see it's still him giving her the longing look makes me more sad for him than anything. If ASP wanted it to read 'hopeful', she could've done something as simple as showing Rory's expression when she was looking out the window at Jess and Luke. Just something to show a balance.

S2 will always be my favorite season because there's some of my favorite buildup of all time. But over the years I've come to care more about Jess as a character than Rory/Jess as a couple. I remember Milo posing the question of whether Jess would still be team Rory and that's something that could've been interesting to explore.

[ChlcGirl]

I have always been staunchly an anti-Jess girl.  While I liked the Jess character in his interactions with Luke, I hated him as a romantic partner for Rory, mostly because I find storylines like theirs ridiculous at best, and slyly dangerous at worst. In life?  Bad boys can rarely be reformed by the love of a good woman, and yet women just keep doing it. Yes, I know it is a choice that everyone can make on their own but lazy storylines like this don't help.

All that said!  Jess came out of the revival looking better than most.  He removed himself from people/places not good, accepted failings he couldn't fix and moved on with his life.  And, by all measures, succeeded - own business, wrote a book and a life in Philly.  All that in addition to healthy relationships with family members.

Now my reasons for not wanting a Jess/Rory end game are different than the original series.  He's much too good for her and doesn't deserve to get pulled into all the Gilmore/Stars Hollow ridiculousness.  Returning to her would be about 13 steps back in his life.

[tarotx]

Jess and Dean both removed themselves from Stars Hollow and Rory. Meaning they aren't characters anymore so they get to be shown with little conflict and highlight only their good traits. Jess gets to come in to soften Luke and tell Rory exactly what to do to get her life back in order. He is clearly being shown in moments that make it perfectly clear that he's Rory's gift once she finds herself. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Quote

Well, I wouldn't necessarily compare the two. Jess was a high school student who had had a really crappy upbringing - deadbeat dad and junkie mom. He really had never learned to respect adults because he had no respectable adults in his life. At the time Logan and Rory begin dating, he's a college student - at a much more mature place in life than Jess. Plus, because of the circles he was raised in, he knows all about the ways of making nice with parents, how to be polite, social niceties, etc. 

 

How about he doesn't go into a stranger's fridge, take her beer and when she doesn't bust him for it and talks up his new guardian, accuses her of sleeping with said guardian (despite any underlying feelings Lorelai had for Luke). Randomly stealing garden gnomes and being an intellectual snob to everyone around him . I really felt sorry for Lindsey when she was trying to make polite conversation with him and mentioned she liked Michelle Branch and Jess openly sneered at her and Rory had to smooth it over. Besides, Logan might have grown up in a great deal of material comfort, but his father is a demanding womanizer and his mother is a snob suffering from some sort of eating disorder.

[Lady Calypso]

On 6/12/2017 at 9:49 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

How about he doesn't go into a stranger's fridge, take her beer and when she doesn't bust him for it and talks up his new guardian, accuses her of sleeping with said guardian (despite any underlying feelings Lorelai had for Luke). Randomly stealing garden gnomes and being an intellectual snob to everyone around him . I really felt sorry for Lindsey when she was trying to make polite conversation with him and mentioned she liked Michelle Branch and Jess openly sneered at her and Rory had to smooth it over. Besides, Logan might have grown up in a great deal of material comfort, but his father is a demanding womanizer and his mother is a snob suffering from some sort of eating disorder.

Jess was a stupid high school kid, there's no doubt about that. He was wild, reckless, and quite rude to people. But what's important is that he did grow out of that behaviour and he did become a better person. Teenagers make very stupid choices. In Jess' case, he was worse than most. But he did figure it out in his early twenties and he did become better because of the mistakes he made as a stupid teenager. 

What Lorelai should have done was act like an actual adult, which she did not do. Calling a teenager a brat to his face, telling him what she'd like to do to him, and acting condescending to him is not the proper way to respond. Jess wasn't right in his attitude toward Lorelai. Lorelai wasn't right either in her attitude toward Jess. Adults should know better; teenagers grow out of their behaviour and it's fine to call them out, but not in the way that Lorelai did. Besides, by the time the revival happened, it seemed like Jess and Lorelai's relationship was a lot better. Again, because Jess grew out of his surly teenager mode. 

[Anela]

I'm anti-Jess when it comes to his deliberately messing with Rory and Dean, and a couple of other things, but I've always thought he was a bit like Lorelai (the writers even have them having the same reactions to things at times). I could see them being friends if he hadn't had that initial reaction to her, that set her off against him. As much as I didn't like early Jess, he's in some of my favourite episodes, or parts of episodes that I liked, such as when Rory is home alone, and he brings her food. 

The way he changes for the better - and he did it for himself, not just in trying to get Rory back - I could see him being Jack in This Is Us. For the right woman. 

One thing I liked, that I've mentioned before, was that he looked up the distance between Stars Hollow, and Yale. That made Rory happy, and he was trying to shrug it off. :) Compared to Dean, who assumed they would break up when she went to college, even though he was practically stalking her at times. 

[Taryn74]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

One thing I liked, that I've mentioned before, was that he looked up the distance between Stars Hollow, and Yale. That made Rory happy, and he was trying to shrug it off. :) Compared to Dean, who assumed they would break up when she went to college, even though he was practically stalking her at times. 

I loved that little throw-away moment too.

Another set of scenes I can't help but compare:
 

Quote

 

RORY: I think you're gonna look great in a tux.

LANE: Tails.

DEAN: What?

LANE: Yeah, according to this it says that all escorts must be properly attired in black tails, white cumberbuns, and white gloves.

DEAN: What?

RORY: I'm sure the gloves are optional.

LANE: Not according to this.

DEAN: Tails? Gloves?

RORY: Remember Neil Young. Remember that you love me. Remember that I'll be watching BattleBots with you for a month.

 

Quote

RORY: It means a tux, you know. I know it's geeky.

JESS: Tuxes are also James Bond. That's not geeky.

 

[stan4]

On 6/15/2017 at 3:47 PM, Taryn74 said:

I loved that little throw-away moment too.

Another set of scenes I can't help but compare:
 

 

If you do those moments, you have to do every single moment he was dickish about anything else Rory liked.  The keg party,  The winter carnival,  Her friends.  Her mother.  Her grandparents.  Etc, etc, etc...you know, things that Dean made an effort with.

Edited January 11, 2018 by stan4

[elang4]

7 minutes ago, stan4 said:

If you do those moments, you have to do every single moment he was dickish about anything else Rory liked.  The keg party,  The winter carnival,  Her friends.  Her mother.  Her grandparents.  Etc, etc, etc...you know, thinks that Dean made an effort with.

He made an effort with Lane and the band and he was happy to go to the prom with Rory. She really had to persuade Dean to go to the dance with her.

[stan4]

14 minutes ago, elang4 said:

He made an effort with Lane and the band and he was happy to go to the prom with Rory. She really had to persuade Dean to go to the dance with her.

He was ok with prom, but he didn't want to help the band set up or stay for their sets, so I don't know how that is being supportive.

[Taryn74]

He actually was looking forward to the party in Keg! Max! (until he got the news about not graduating and no prom).  Rory said so.  

Quote

RORY: I've been looking all over for you.
JESS: Just got tired of everything down there.
RORY: Are we allowed to be up here? I mean, Kyle was kind of discouraging it.
JESS: When you have a party, you get what you get.
RORY: Yeah, I guess. Sad boy, what's wrong? You were looking forward to this party, what happened?
JESS: Nothing.
RORY: Something did. Come on, tell me.

He was also very cordial to Emily at FND in Swan Song, until Rory just would not let the black eye thing go and kept pushing and pushing.

He was polite to Mrs. Kim.  May have been self-preservation instinct there, though.  Ha!

[elang4]

1 minute ago, Taryn74 said:

He actually was looking forward to the party in Keg! Max! (until he got the news about not graduating and no prom).  Rory said so.  

He was also very cordial to Emily at FND in Swan Song, until Rory just would not let the black eye thing go and kept pushing and pushing.

He was polite to Mrs. Kim.  May have been self-preservation instinct there, though.  Ha!

Oh god, that FND was one of the moments I really didn’t like Rory! Jess was actually making an effort with Emily and she was just pushing him to talk to her. She was the one being rude. He clearly didn’t want to talk about it there. She should have just waited and talked to him afterwards. That moment always annoys me! And then she runs to Dean to ask him!!

[stan4]

Just now, elang4 said:

Oh god, that FND was one of the moments I really didn’t like Rory! Jess was actually making an effort with Emily and she was just pushing him to talk to her. She was the one being rude. He clearly didn’t want to talk about it there. She should have just waited and talked to him afterwards. That moment always annoys me! And then she runs to Dean to ask him!!

Yeah.  That was super not cool.  But it kind of gives you an insight of what Rory really thinks of Jess.

[elang4]

1 minute ago, stan4 said:

Yeah.  That was super not cool.  But it kind of gives you an insight of what Rory really thinks of Jess.

I agree. See I’m Team Jess but I didn’t necessarily like them as a couple. He was a jerk in that relationship but Rory wasn’t brilliant either. She constantly compared him to Dean, so much in fact that even Lorelai called her out on it! Rory always thought the worst of him which wasn’t healthy for their relationship at all!

[MatildaMoody]

47 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I agree. See I’m Team Jess but I didn’t necessarily like them as a couple. He was a jerk in that relationship but Rory wasn’t brilliant either. She constantly compared him to Dean, so much in fact that even Lorelai called her out on it! Rory always thought the worst of him which wasn’t healthy for their relationship at all!

Although, I do agree that Rory was channeling her mother's worst instincts at that FND, I can see why she would be wary (she definitely should have shown some decorum though) of Jess showing up with a black eye.

I don't think it had anything to do with her thinking the worst of him though. 

I think Rory was reacting to what Jess had shown her because he refused to tell her anything. She shouldn't have badgered him about how he got the black eye(especially because of the time and place). But, all she knew of Jess was that he badgers people until they react. He badgered the town into seeing him as a punk. He badgered Dean into hating his guts (even though Dean was polite and welcoming to him on his arrival to town). He badgered Rory into questioning who she should be with (and badgered both Rory and Dean until Dean publicly broke up with her). While Rory was wrong in that specific situation, I get that she was simply responding to Jess with the same tactics he used on every other person in his life. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by MatildaMoody

[stan4]

On 1/10/2018 at 7:35 PM, MatildaMoody said:

Although, I do agree that Rory was channeling her mother's worst instincts at that FND, I can see why she would be wary (she definitely should have shown some decorum though) of Jess showing up with a black eye.

I don't think it had anything to do with her thinking the worst of him though. 

I think Rory was reacting to what Jess had shown her because he refused to tell her anything. She shouldn't have badgered him about how he got the black eye(especially because of the time and place). But, all she knew of Jess was that he badgers people until they react. He badgered the town into seeing him as a punk. He badgered Dean into hating his guts (even though Dean was polite and welcoming to him on his arrival to town). He badgered Rory into questioning who she should be with (and badgered both Rory and Dean until Dean publicly broke up with her). While Rory was wrong in that specific situation, I get that she was simply responding to Jess with the same tactics he used on every other person in his life. 

Yup.

Amazing he was so cheesed when he pretty much went out of his way to create the reputation that would make someone think he started some crap.

He was always. Starting. Crap.

[elang4]

5 hours ago, stan4 said:

Yup.

Amazing he was so cheesed when he pretty much went out of his way to create the reputation that would make someone think he started some crap.

He was always. Starting. Crap.

But Jess told her he’d talk about it with her later. She should have respected that.

[MatildaMoody]

12 hours ago, elang4 said:

But Jess told her he’d talk about it with her later. She should have respected that.

Agreed. I was just commenting on Rory's reaction not necessarily being about her thinking the worst of Jess and was really based on Jess's own behavior.

[slf]

I've seen people talk about Jess being a sociopathic bad boy and I just laugh my ass off. He stole a garden gnome. He repeatedly tried to impress Rory with magic tricks. He wanted to take his girlfriend to prom, and was nice to her grandma. Yeah, he smoked, stole a beer, had no regard for curfew, and skipped school. That describes more teenagers than most parents know or care to admit. Honestly, Rory would go on to do worse and at an older age yet she's not described a sociopathic bad girl. Is it because he's dark-haired and wore a leather jacket sometimes? I think 'pretentious emo hipster' describes seasons 2-3 Jess better than anything, and then just 'hipster' after that.

[stan4]

On 2/8/2018 at 7:33 PM, slf said:

I've seen people talk about Jess being a sociopathic bad boy and I just laugh my ass off. He stole a garden gnome. He repeatedly tried to impress Rory with magic tricks. He wanted to take his girlfriend to prom, and was nice to her grandma. Yeah, he smoked, stole a beer, had no regard for curfew, and skipped school. That describes more teenagers than most parents know or care to admit. Honestly, Rory would go on to do worse and at an older age yet she's not described a sociopathic bad girl. Is it because he's dark-haired and wore a leather jacket sometimes? I think 'pretentious emo hipster' describes seasons 2-3 Jess better than anything, and then just 'hipster' after that.

He stole baseballs, he stole the donation money at Doose's, he lied to everyone constantly, he baited Dean at every opportunity, he was a terrible boyfriend (unreliable, lying, flakey, taking her for granted, etc), he broke his word/deal Luke multiple times, he yelled at his principal when he didn't get his way....

 

Hey, I liked his pranks. I like pranks in general.  But let's not pretend he wasn't a disturbed little dude.

 

And I own a black leather motorcycle jacket (bought it in France)...and I used to wear it and smoke.  So no bias there (I also actually had a motorcycle, but still...).

Edited March 27, 2018 by stan4

[slf]

8 hours ago, stan4 said:

He stole baseballs, he stole the donation money at Doose's, he lied to everyone constantly, he baited Dean at every opportunity, he was a terrible boyfriend (unreliable, lying, flakey, taking her for granted, etc), he broke his word/deal Luke multiple times, he yelled at his principal when he didn't get his way....

 

Hey, I liked his pranks. I like pranks in general.  But let's not pretend he wasn't a disturbed little dude.

 

And I own a black leather motorcycle jacket (bought it in France)...and I used to wear it and smoke.  So no bias there (I also actually had a motorcycle, but still...).

None of that is sociopathic. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but theft isn't that uncommon for teens. Neither is baiting a kid you don't like or lying to your parental figure about whether or not you're doing what you're supposed to me. Plenty of teenagers are terrible boyfriends/girlfriends. Taking the donation money is probably the worst thing he did but even that isn't sociopathic. I would also suggest none of that makes him "disturbed"; a reckless guy lashing out in stupid and self-destructive ways? Yes. Disturbed, no.

[stan4]

14 minutes ago, slf said:

None of that is sociopathic. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but theft isn't that uncommon for teens. Neither is baiting a kid you don't like or lying to your parental figure about whether or not you're doing what you're supposed to me. Plenty of teenagers are terrible boyfriends/girlfriends. Taking the donation money is probably the worst thing he did but even that isn't sociopathic. I would also suggest none of that makes him "disturbed"; a reckless guy lashing out in stupid and self-destructive ways? Yes. Disturbed, no.

I never said he was a sociopath.

 

And disturbed by definition is someone with emotional or mental problems.  His being the former, of course.

 

As a teen, my friend group didn't think it was normal to steal or lie or treat people like crap.  We thought kids who did those kind of things were messed up.  Pretty sure people still do.

[slf]

3 hours ago, stan4 said:

I never said he was a sociopath.

I made a post about people saying he was a sociopath and disagreed with that, you responded with a list of things he did. Seemed like you were disagreeing with that. 

3 hours ago, stan4 said:

And disturbed by definition is someone with emotional or mental problems.  His being the former, of course.

Since when is being unhappy considered being emotionally disturbed? I don't know a single psychologist that would agree with that.

3 hours ago, stan4 said:

As a teen, my friend group didn't think it was normal to steal or lie or treat people like crap.  We thought kids who did those kind of things were messed up.  Pretty sure people still do.

Most people lie- maybe not earth-shattering betrayal type lies, maybe only small ones they think spare someone's feelings, but most people lie. Most kids steal something at some point during their childhood or teen years. Treating people like crap varies- plenty of people didn't but also plenty of people did and think they didn't. Teenagers are notoriously moody and prone to be dramatic. Doesn't tend to lend itself to perfectly functioning relationships. Plenty of friend drama, plenty of romantic drama. Also not a sign one is disturbed.

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, slf said:

Taking the donation money is probably the worst thing he did

Not that stealing is ever okay, don't misunderstand me, but this was a donation cup at Doose's Market, run by Taylor Doose.  The kind of donation cup that people drop their change into when they checkout instead of putting it in their pocket.  I can almost guarantee Taylor emptied that can every single night and counted it twice.  It probably had about $1.27 in it when Jess "stole" the money.

I'm just saying, even that falls more on the "prank" side of things than the "petty theft" side.

[Guest]

Just in case you’re wondering (on the subject of Jess’ crimes), when people are complaining about someone and I chime in with “I hear he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter!” no one ever gets the reference.

[Taryn74]

25 minutes ago, deaja said:

Just in case you’re wondering (on the subject of Jess’ crimes), when people are complaining about someone and I chime in with “I hear he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter!” no one ever gets the reference.

Bahahaha I use that one often too.  My daughter at least gets it.  She's my GG pal.

(By the way, did you know that - claiming to control the weather and having written a famous work - was based on fact?  I think it was one of North Korea's crazy dictators.  I'll have to look it up again.)

[slf]

20 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Not that stealing is ever okay, don't misunderstand me, but this was a donation cup at Doose's Market, run by Taylor Doose.  The kind of donation cup that people drop their change into when they checkout instead of putting it in their pocket.  I can almost guarantee Taylor emptied that can every single night and counted it twice.  It probably had about $1.27 in it when Jess "stole" the money.

I'm just saying, even that falls more on the "prank" side of things than the "petty theft" side.

Thank you for that information because I didn't remember any donation money being stolen (didn't doubt it happened I just don't remember every detail) so I just assumed it was like charity money or something. So scratch that, the worst thing Jess ever did was skipping school and lying to Luke about it.

Jess was a deeply unhappy kid who didn't have a great outlet for it. His home life made him very cynical at too young an age (and it must've been hell to be dumped into an overly cheery town like Stars Hollow) and he was too smart for his own good- but still had that short-sightedness kids are known for. He thought everything would just work out. Little wonder, too, considering that's how he was raised. Liz never had a plan; she went from one job to the next, when she had one, and borrowed money (from Luke) when she was unemployed. He could be a little shit, yeah. But, imo, I think everyone except Luke and Rory overreacted to him.

[junienmomo]

Compare Jess to Rory:

She stole, starting with corn starch. She was regularly coached by her mother (let’s compare Liz to Lorelai again one day) to take advantage of others, like testing cakes she never intended to buy for her wedding, since Sookie was making it. She and Lane were well-versed in lying to adults, especially to Mrs. Kim and lies of omission to Eemily. 

Then came the cheating. Jess baited both Dean and Rory, but Rory was the one who kissed Jess while still with Dean. Dean and Rory cheating was bigger than any relationship flaw Jess had. It was worse because Rory only turned to Dean because of nostalgia when it turned out that college was not Utopia and Rory-land. 

Finally, stealing a yacht outclassed anything Jess stole, and was unfortunately an indicator that she was not maturing while we later discovered that Jess had off-screen mended his youthful errors and was maturing reasonably. 

I think that all of their teenage actions were within the realm of “bad boy” or “Gilmore entitlement” except for the cheating and the yacht.

[marineg]

On 29/03/2018 at 9:03 AM, junienmomo said:

Compare Jess to Rory:

She stole, starting with corn starch. She was regularly coached by her mother (let’s compare Liz to Lorelai again one day) to take advantage of others, like testing cakes she never intended to buy for her wedding, since Sookie was making it. She and Lane were well-versed in lying to adults, especially to Mrs. Kim and lies of omission to Eemily. 

Then came the cheating. Jess baited both Dean and Rory, but Rory was the one who kissed Jess while still with Dean. Dean and Rory cheating was bigger than any relationship flaw Jess had. It was worse because Rory only turned to Dean because of nostalgia when it turned out that college was not Utopia and Rory-land. 

Finally, stealing a yacht outclassed anything Jess stole, and was unfortunately an indicator that she was not maturing while we later discovered that Jess had off-screen mended his youthful errors and was maturing reasonably. 

And that was proven in GGAYITL, where Jess actually was stable, with a good job, a good life, and good advice for his friends. And Rory was just as lost as that episode in Season 6 when Jess showed up from Philadelphia with his book and was shocked to find a drop-out Rory who was living at her grandmother's, not speaking to her mother, and dating a douchebag (at least in his eyes).

I don't think Yale was the right fit for her. She didn't thrive there. She was always and consistently needing someone to coddle her and praise her and love her unconditionally. That's why she kept going back to Dean. But Yale isn't that kind of school. Hell, college in general isn't like that. You show up to class, do your work, and be an adult.

That's why I think Jess was always better at dealing with the adult world. He was just exposed to it too soon because of his mom (and absentee dad), and therefore lashed out and created bad situations, relying only on himself and never others. Where Rory always needed someone by her side holding her hand and showing her the way, Jess always pushed people away so he didn't have to need someone to lean on.